#anti angel

[raisedbythetv89]

Never not thinking about how Buffy has to beg and plead for Angel to not let the sun kill him when the first was tormenting him with what he’s done and that fact that soul or no soul he still wants to hurt Buffy and he concludes the only way he won’t is to kill himself….. and the only reason he didn’t dust was the storm and he was fully gonna let her watch him die again because he couldn’t face what a worthless piece of shit and a monster even with the soul he really is (and then suddenly they’re back together even though Buffy said they couldn’t be together anymore like RIGHT before all this so essentially Angel threatens to kill himself and then suddenly he and Buffy are back together 🙃 i hate it here)

Riley was gonna let himself die rather than become even weaker than Buffy while she again begs for him to stop being a whiny attention seeking toddler and grow the fuck up and do what he needs to do so he won’t DIE (my words not hers obviously lol) and when that doesn’t work and she still doesn’t “pay enough attention to him or need him enough” in his eyes while she’s ya know being the slayer, raising her sister and taking care of her sick mother…. He cheats on her in a way that again threatens his own life and the lives of everyone he could easily kill in her life if he were to be turned and when THAT doesn’t work he threatens to leave forever unless she forgives him IMMEDIATELY

And Spike who is the only one to actually die after she again is pleading you don’t have to do this “no there’s still time you’ve done enough” because Spike knows Buffy doesn’t deserve “good enough” Buffy deserves everything, she deserves to be free of the hellmouth even though that means they can’t be together and he’ll die

Two man-children who threaten to kill themselves because they can’t handle what they’ve done or that they’re not as strong as they think they are and drag an overburdened and traumatized young woman they had no business even dating in the first place along for their self-destructive ride vs a man who literally already sacrificed everything he was to become someone she could love without guilt, sacrificing everything he fought to become, for her and her beloved world she loves so much and fights so hard to protect.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO MEN WHO THREATEN DEATH VS THE MAN WHO ACTUALLY DIED AND THE VASTLY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THESE THREE EVENTS 😭😭😭

Spike dying BECAUSE he was worthy of Buffy’s love rather than because he wasn’t like the two who came before him

#SPIKE SUPREMACY #SPUFFY SUPREMACY #like I’m sorry but it’s genuinely no contest #spuffy #spike and buffy #spike x buffy #certified angel and riley hater for life #anti angel #anti bangel #anti riley finn #anti biley #spuffy meta

[greensaplinggrace]

I think one of the biggest differences between bangel and spuffy is that angel isn’t a partner to buffy. he’s not even someone she knows that well. he’s not someone she’s ever familiar with, and he’s not someone she can ever fully rely on.

yeah their romance was big and grand and all the things a tragic fairytale romance is. but at the end of the day their relationship is so incredibly surface level. all there is is the idea of love, and not even the real thing.

#btvs #spike btvs #spuffy #buffy summers #anti angel #anti bangel #just in case #tbh I’m usually a multishipper when it comes to this sort of thing but… #b*ngel comes across as so surface level to me #there’s no real force or depth to it #even disregarding the weird vibes angel gives off about buffy’s age and his condescension and when he first fell in love with her #and all the ways he keeps her hooked by refusing to leave her alone after breaking up with her #a choice that he makes ‘for her own good’ - which he seems to do a lot #it’s that he has no real impact on her as an actual person/slayer with interests and complexity and depth #while he hurt her and affected her #sometimes it feels like he barely made a scratch at all to what actually represents her personhood #anyways I don’t hate him or the ship really and I get why people like him #it’s just to me it’s kind of ridículous that people #say he was it for buffy #when he was barely even a partner #that’s high school romance not real bone deep love #myramblings

[elysianholly]

S2 Bangel

So I'm fresh off a rewatch of S2 and I want a universe where they continued the "it's toxic, don't" vibes rather than retconning Bangel into One Twu Love because for real, you have Buffy saying things like, "I am immature. I'm a teen. I have yet to mature" while Angel is calling Xander (who is Buffy's age) a kid and a whole episode about a predatory relationship between a student and teacher, FFS. Like, S2 isn't subtle in its "this dynamic is not healthy" message even before he goes evil. (Even if the blame for the predatory relationship in IOHEFY falls on the student, for some reason, when in the previous season, they made a literal predator a woman teacher lusting after young boys, which is a whole other rant. At the very least, though, you do have a direct, nonsubtle comparison to what few people have a problem calling a gross, inappropriate, predatory relationship in 2024 to Bangel. One where the adult should have known better.). Like, I know they wanted to give DB his own show, but they trounced all over their own metaphor to make it happen.

#anti angel #anti bangel #btvs season 2 #buffy summers #buffy the vampire slayer #btvs #btvs meta

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

I just remember that Angel said he loved Buffy since he first saw her. She was fifteen. FIFTEEN. This was no period drama.

If she looked like Dawn had in season 5 they wouldn't ship Bangel that much.

FIFTEEN.

#buffy the vampire slayer #btvs #anti angel #anti bangel #buffy summers #angel btvs

[disco-tea]

Ya know, I get that Buffy’s arc had been building towards killing Angel and she’s the main character, but I simply think it would have been So Good for Drusilla to kill him. To give her that moment of clarity, of power, of revenge. She deserves to kill him more than anybody (and a lot of people deserve to kill him tbh) and I think it would have been a fabulous narrative decision to have her send him to hell.

#btvs 2.22 #drusilla btvs #anti angel

[messedupdoilies]

sorry, now that I’m on the topic but the problem with IWRY is that the basic plotline would only work if Buffy Summers were a totally normal girl who was only wrapped up in the supernatural because she was dating a vampire. But she isn’t, she’s the fucking Slayer. Whether Angel deigns to be in her life or not, crazy fucked up supernatural shit will be in her life and it will be trying to kill her. Angel cutting his ties with her will not save her from anything, and so you watch the episode and it seems so obvious that Angel is lying to himself; this isn’t about Buffy at all. This is about him.

So naturally, he doesn’t bother to get her say before he makes his decision to undo it all.

#anti bangel #anti angel #talking

[l0veisntbrains]

I can't stop thinking about the end of flooded and then life serial, and the line "and the only person that I can even stand to be around... is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker". she spent the last days with anyone, including her ex-lover, but still... Spike is the only person she could stand? I just --

#just me overthinking about small details of s6 #anti bangel #anti angel #spike #buffy #s6 #spuffy

[dreamcaught]

I don't like Angel. I didn't like him in season 1-3 on my original watch when I was a kid, and I actively dislike him as an adult. I think he's creepy and I think his obsession and romantic entanglement with a 15-17 year old girl is really fucked up. People who have worked on the show have said that Angel was the perfect fit for Buffy as she's coming into her powers. I would like to wholeheartedly and vehemently disagree.

The show is brilliant in its use of allegory to show the trials and tribulations of growing up. Vampires, demons, etc. all represent different things that regular teenagers have to "slay" as they make their way through life and hardships. Surrounding yourself with friends, good coping mechanisms, found family, etc. are real world ways to get through life, and I love how the show emphasizes their importance.

The thing is, though: Angel's relationship with Buffy is romanticized abuse. Calling Angel Buffy's true love, or that she should choose him after their relationship ends, or that Angel was a good fit for Buffy in any way whatsoever, is problematic.

Let's break this down:

Angel is an authority figure in Buffy's life. He brings her secret information from the underground. He is older than she is. He is attractive, but he is friendless and lonely. He tells Buffy that she is special, interesting and unique - that she is important to him in a way that no other person has ever been important to him before. His mysterious persona is romanticized. Buffy is supposed to fall for the dark, mysterious stranger - much like many 15-16 year old girls do.

Buffy wants to change aspects of herself so that he will like her more. She tries to act older, more mature and more attractive to get his attention. She feels that he understands her because they were both given destinies that neither of them really want, so he makes her feel special, but also alone, because only he can make her feel better.

These are red flags.

If, in the real world, any of these things were happening to a 15-16 year old girl that you know, the right thing to do would be to tell them that this is not a good, healthy relationship to be in.

The purpose of Angel and Buffy's relationship is to demonstrate this. In some ways, it is actually very well done. When Buffy and Angel get serious and he turns into Angelus, the allegory is that as soon as men have sex, they've gotten what they want and will give up the relationship as meaningless.

(They do this more explicitly again with Buffy's relationship with Parker, but let's not get sidetracked.)

Their relationship is meant to be a representation of the difficulty of teenage/adult romance and the danger of underage sex. I'm going to sidestep my opinions of how any kind of sex in BTVS is represented, because I think that deserves more analysis. The point is that the audience is meant to see, in no uncertain terms, that Buffy's relationship with Angel is wrong.

But... we're not supposed to think that it's wrong. We're supposed to think that it's tragic. The show is trying to teach me that Angel and Buffy are soulmates who are meant to be together and that they can't be is a problem.

They are saying that all of these red flags, all of the things that I've pointed out as being actual real life examples of abusive relationships do not matter. It is all swept under the rug because Angel and Buffy are in love. He can do absolutely no wrong because he's not really himself.

I admit: their story is convoluted because of the supernatural elements of the show. I love how complicated it is that Buffy's lover turns into a monster that she has to fight. It's brilliant that she has such a large character flaw in that she feels so unworthy, so unlovable that she finds herself in an abusive relationship wherein she literally has to kill her abuser to get out of it. That is gorgeous closure for people who have fallen for these same tricks, for women everywhere who have been in abusive relationships.

But then Angel comes back, and this closure is lost.

The divide between Angel and Angelus permits the viewer to see their relationship as only romantic - as tragic, and heroic, and terrible for both sides because the love must have been real, right? Since it is possible to separate out the abuser, we can. We do. Angel gets a free pass because he's trying to do better, to redeem himself, and so they should end up together after all.

And I think that's a horrible message to send to viewers.

Imagine you meet a young girl who is terribly infatuated with an older man. The older man says he loves her, but he separates her from her friends. He treats their relationship like a freak show. He needs it to be secret because he feels too guilty, but prevents her from having relationships with anyone else. That is emotionally abusive, controlling and a terrible way to introduce someone to what healthy romantic love should look like.

It is certainly not a relationship that I would call a perfect fit for anyone.

#btvs #btvs meta #meta #anti angel #anti bangel #abusive relationships #long post

[raven--stag]

Okay I feel like in season 7 they decided to not bother and just slapped angel's script all over spike and called it a day lol

#they made him so boring #whyyyy #spike #spike btvs #anti angel #??? i guess #buffy the vampire slayer #btvs

[williamprattz]

“but angel has depression 🥺” yeah so do i, it doesn’t make special and the fact depression doesn’t make you groom young girls but being does

#anti angel #anti bangel #tw grooming

[raisedbythetv89]

Sometimes I just sit and imagine what btvs could have been like if the women characters and their perspectives were TRULY centered and what all could have been.

How much wasn’t explored

How angel gets his own show but is completely reliant on the presence of Cordelia and the most interesting story lines revolve around her, darla, and drusilla. And how they needed Spike, the most female gaze male character, to even have a 5th season

How Riley gets to live and be a hero with a hot badass wife but Tara, Anya, and Kendra all are dead

How much xander’s abusive, toxic monologues passing judgment on everyone but himself often serve as the “facts or true reality” of the narrative rather than the rantings of a jealous, bitter, repressed, weak and pathetic boy

So much of the show is about a woman but still with men and men’s opinions, needs, desires at the center. We can see jane and marti’s efforts to center women’s narratives more especially in season 6 and 7 but much like I mourn what the first 32 years of my life could have been without patriarchy, what could have been for this show with so many incredible women that left so much potential unrealized.

Fan fiction is a reclamation of this lost potential. It’s a powerful and radical thing to do. Correcting the narrative to center who should have been centered all along heals the parts of us society wants us to neglect within ourselves for the sake of men (or straight people or white people or cis people) and their own narratives. It’s a way to decenter men not only in our real life spaces but our fictional ones too

#female gaze #decentering men #btvs #cordelia #tara mclay #kendra young #kendra btvs #drusilla btvs #darla btvs #anti riley finn #anti xander harris #anti angel #buffy summers

[vargamornight]

He deserved it so it's fine

LOOOOL is this about angel bc i can't disagree

the man saw a 14 year old girl and decided right then and there that he was In Love With Her (A Child) so countless thousands of years in a hell dimension is actually pretty light as far as i'm concerned

#angel btvs #anti angel

[spikedru]

I'm curious to hear your reasons on disliking Angel. (nothing wrong with that, just wanna understand better)

to be honest a lot of my distaste for angel stems from the fact i think david boreanaz is a shit actor with the charisma and screen presence of a block of wood, and no amount of engaging writing or interesting backstory can change that.

i also like angel just fine in s1&2! his character is supposed to be the mysterious gothic romantic hero. which works for the tone of those seasons! but those stories are tragedies so it makes sense and is a good ending that he dies. but then they cheapen it by oops! angels back to life lol! everything about him in s3 onward in btvs annoys me to the point where it sours the character for me bc he doesnt do shit! and is boring.

ive yet to rewatch ats but i do remember liking angel as a character much more on that show than i ever did on btvs. and thats mostly bc i enjoyed the relationships he built with the characters on that show (w cordelia wesley gunn fred lorne etc) and thought they were a much better fit and more interesting than any of the relationships he had on btvs, because they all challenge him in ways that actually bring out the interesting aspects of his character rather than the insufferable ones

#anti angel #<- just incase #my thoughts on him r complicated loo #lol #but as a person whose top 3 fave characters r bufft drusilla and spike i admit i am little biased in my dislike #also i just woke up #asks

[odinspattern]

The people in Buffy’s life really should have tried harder to stop Buffy and Ang*l getting together.

#buffy the vampire slayer #anti angel

[hello-nichya-here]

Honestly, I'd like Angel a lot more if the writting acknowledged that in many ways he IS a bad person, but genuinely wanted to change and eventually DID change.

Okay says the retard who is defending a rapist lol at least angel isn’t a rapist then again all you spike stans are retarded I should expect that from you

"At least Angel isn't a rapist" Drusilla - and who knows how many of Angel's victims - would like to have a word with you. They're vampires, my guy. Them doing horrible shit is to be expected.

And thank you for proving my point on how people want Spike crucified for exact same shit they choose to forget Angelus did (often 10 times worse because dude was sadistic as fuck).

Hell, Spike is one the consequences of Angel's abuse of Dru. Angelus MADE Spike, to the point that Spike calls him his sire in the episode he is introduced despite Dru being the one who actually turned him into a vampire.

They're both evil "men", the difference being Spike actually fought for his soul once he hurt Buffy, while Angelus got his back against his will - twice, because his love for Buffy wasn't enough to make him want to change, and she ended up killing him.

I like character's redemption arcs to actually be their own choice, and this is why I prefer Spike, both as a character and as Buffy's love interest. You have every right to disagree, but you don't get to come into my blog and complain about what I said in a properly tagged post.

#asks #anon hate #entitled people #spuffy #anti bangel #anti angel #rape mention #buffy the vampire slayer

[chasingfictions]

tillow, spuffy & from beneath you it devours

im rewatching tillow scenes for emotional healing lmao and this bit in "goodbye iowa" is SO!!

it's the "you and me? this is beneath us." but it literally IS beneath them!!! it's "from beneath you it devours", the subconscious subterranean world rising up to eat you whole. it's buffy's "you're beneath me" to spike -- spike the demon, spike the shadow, spike the queer camp carnal figure. it's the goddess thespia being both linked to willow and tara's queer-sex-coded witchcraft -- like, this whole conversation as a barely cloaked metaphor. tara says "i've been thinking about that last spell we did all day", what she means is, "i've been thinking about you fucking me all day". but also the goddess thespia being explicitly linked to demons here. to Finding demons. it's this season closing out on, in restless, "we're not demons" "is that a fact?". and it's not a fact, is the thing. "get it done" shows that three seasons later. it's that slayers are demons, it's that demons are always lurking inside of us.

it's that willow and tara are going looking for demons, for the thing beneath them. by having queer sex, they're actively searching for it. plumbing the depths. it's tara sabatoging the spell because of her familial trauma -- she is in the depths with willow, she is swimming around, she is walking around in a dykey sex haze all day because she's so enamored. enamored of willow's magic too. but that same magic in herself is still an object of fear and shame and terror. it has to be literally hidden under the bed. it's the bed as a site of dreams, of the subconcious having its place. it's the bedroom as the self, the haven. it's how much of willow and tara's relationship is scenes bookended by tara letting willow into her room. her selfhood. it's that tara revels in her queerness and desires it in others but fears it in herself.

it's in this same episode of early tillow courtship, where tara (before willow rejects her offer to have a date that night, in what will later result in willow turning up at tara's door, allowing for that aformentioned classic tillow threshold moment), offering willow a doll's eye crystal. that belonged to her maternal grandmother. that she found in her attic. not the thing beneath her, ready to devour, with all tara's terror, but the place above her, the place she is consciously choosing. above as the mind, as the spirit, in contrast to the subconscious. she offers it to willow, a sign that she is mentally there. she wants to want to be able to give herself fully to this queer love. but willow rejects the crystal in this moment, signalling that they both need to deal with what is lurking beneath before they can engage with what lies above.

it's the series starting out for that matter from the bed as the place of the subconcious. we meet buffy in "welcome to the hellmouth" as her dreaming self. in her bed. dreaming of the legions of the undead rising up, of the master under the ground, of the subterranean things lurking. of her subconscious. of the thing beneath her that will literally devour her -- the master trapped under the ground, who will drink her blood in the close of the season.

to bring it back to the queer and queercoded relationships in the back half of the show, then, for that matter it's also the spuffy "we missed the bed again" of it all. it's buffy's first time with angel being in a bed, the morning-after trauma, the one night stand with parker, the relationship with riley - two of which give buffy trauma around her sexuality and desires, and one of which is distinctively shown -- her climbing out of bed in 5x01 unsatisfied to go masturbate hunt demons as an apt example -- to still leave her feeling sexually unfulfilled. to go down to the ground level, to the cemetery, to the demons. to find the thing beneath her so it can devour her. it's spike and buffy distinctly not fucking in beds for the most part -- fucking through the floor or on the floor, on two notable instances. it's that when they are fucking in a bed, buffy is invisible, so she's not fully present in that land of her subconscious and her desire. she's enacting what tara is. engaging in the sexual act (the demon-finding spell / the demon-fucking affair), but not allowing her to bring her whole self into it (hiding the demon-finding powder under the bed / only fucking the demon in the bed because, to quote spike "the only reason you're here is that you're not here). for that matter, by fucking spike on the floor, or under it, under the places where a bed would be, she's engaging very literally with tara shoving the demon-finding powder under her own bed. buffy can seek out her demon, can desire the demon, can't stop doing it, but also can't stop accruing shame from it, and hiding that shame under the bed in her consciousness, to pile up like so much unswept dust.

it's that the only visual scene we get of spike and buffy in a bed together in season 6 is within a dream. buffy dreams in dead things of being with spike in her bed. within a dream, she is able to access that she wants this place of dreams and peace and selfhood to include him. but she can't, because of the guilt. it's tara's patriarchal shame trauma and buffy's patriarchal shame trauma (her father telling her there is a demon in you, and that's why you want these things, that's why you can do these things / it's buffy's first, much-older boyfriend giving her the messages as a teenager there is something wrong with you, that's why everything you want is going all wrong. both as soulless angel -- "like i wanted to stick around after that?" and souled angel -- "this freakshow.")

to bring it back to willow and tara, it's willow's moment of queer self acceptance and tara's moment of queer self acceptance returning to these same themes: the bedroom, the beneath. it's willow affirming her desire for tara -- that has been an underbelly all season, both to the characters and the viewers. if you are keyed into queerness in media, it's obvious that magic is functioning a metaphor for gay sex. but, if you're not, it would be possible (difficult, but i've seen it done) to watch the season oblivious to or at least underplaying the explicit romance between willow and tara. until new moon rising, when the desire is put into words, when we are back at tara's bedroom, willow at the threshold, tara letting her in. willow blowing out the candle as if to say, i am here in your selfhood with you, and i am ready to enter the dark. i am actively choosing this, the place beneath, the subconscious and the subterranean. i am naming it out loud, to myself and you and others, that this is what i want, and i am thus merging the subconscious and the conscious. i am embracing the thing beneath me, i am smiling as it devours me.

to tara's moment of queer self-acceptance. where her issue was never saying her queerness out loud, but rather that she knows her queerness, but it's a source of shame and fear for her. because of the ancestral trauma, because of the patriarchal wound that has not yet been given occasion to close. she is all-too-aware of the thing beneath her, and she is piling it up. shoving the demon-finding, subconscious-finding powder under the bed, because she can't not engage with it, she can't resist the urge to be who she is and want who she wants. but she also can't avoid the piling-on of psychic baggage that embodying herself accrues. until she can. until her familial shame rolls into town, and she is given the chance to unlearn that shame, to feel true and final acceptance. tara who ran away from home to be her full, queer, magical self, but only was able to run away in body, not in mind. now set free from the powder accumulated under her bed, and the equal-opposite force is so resounding that she starts floating. the thing beneath her not weighing her down, but giving her license to rise up in comfort, and to inevitably come back to earth, still in the arms of her lover.

this all comes together rather beautifully for tillow in "once more, with feeling" -- tara and willow finally getting to have sex in a bed. sex and magic united explicitly in the narrative, and united blissfully for tara -- there is no shame here, no hiding. just letting herself fully enjoy this moment. no tension between above or beneath. rather, tara is able to float, again, as she is devoured by willow, beneath her.

it's spuffy, too, finally ending up above, together, in a bed, desires stated explicitly.it's the wholeness of "i've seen the best of the worst of you. and i understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. you're a hell of a woman. you're the one, buffy." it's the subconscious, what has been coded as the worst, no longer being a place of shame, but being instead a source of love -- just one component of what makes her a hell of a woman. even hell in this sentence -- hell as the infernal, as the literal place beneath. it's the hellmouth, it's welcome to the hellmouth in buffy's bed full of unspoken dreams, it's vampires as demonic and hellish, it's all of this love coming pouring of a vampire's mouth, from hell's mouth. it's this being met, on buffy's end, with, "can you just hold me." she is letting spike, the thing beneath her, who kneels to make this speech, devour her. because she, the thing above him, has devoured him right back.it's "crush"'s "destroying everything that was me, until all that's left is you, in a dead shell." it's 'we're not demons?" "is that a fact?" all over again. the master devours buffy in our first year on the hellmouth. in our last year, buffy devours spike. vampiric of her. and spike devours the hellmouth. with his soul. his soul got to be more like buffy, he gets the spark and all it does "is burn." is devour. is devour him into the person who can hold space for buffy's wholeness. the spuffy ouroboros.

#btvs meta #anti bangel #anti angel #i fucking guess just tagging bc yada yada yada like. ok that's One line in the whole thing it's not about that #i SWEAR this was just gonna be a four line post about that ONE moment from goodbye iowa but here we are!!! as per UZH!!!! #anyway we LOVE metaphorically rich cunnilingus!!!!!!! #btvs script