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sketching-shark · 3 years

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I think we should start a protection squad (although they don’t need it because they can protect themselves) for Sun Wukong and Guanyin

“Begone monkie kid fandom trying to down grade these really interesting characters with interesting personality’s and backstory ( the both of them like seriously Guanyin backstory is so cool) to a villain wile trying to justify your angsty backstory (that are no where near as cool as monkey who fights gods and Person who has 1000 arms and heads to help people in need) for the actual villain”

So who wants to join

Me:*raises my hand*

Ps: sorry if I got Guanyin backstory wrong am not an expert on it.

Haha okay so some critiques on the jttw & associated media western fandom & fandom in general coming up, so please skip this upcoming text wall if you don't want to encounter my undoubtedly ~devastating~ words (i.e. don't like don't read as people love to say, & if I have to be inundated with images of my notp every time I go into the sun wukong tag then I imagine people can be chill with me expressing my opinions & giving people fair warning that I WILL be critiquing common fandom trends, but no need for you to see that if you don’t want to. Cool? Cool.)

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PFFFFFTTT oh man there are many times when I feel like signing up for such a protection squad...when it comes to the current western jttw & Sun Wukong fandom I do feel like I'm often swinging at a rapid pace between "well it's fandom & people are allowed to make the stories they want" & "I am once again begging my fellow monkie kid enthusiasts (& sometimes creators) to do more research into the og classic/show it more respect so you can avoid any potentially offensive/off-the-mark misunderstandings of the status & cultural context of the characters in their country of origin (I promise it's super interesting & I can provide you with links to free pdf copies of the entire Yu translation, i.e. the best one ever created, so feel free to ask!) & maybe also stop constantly stripping away all the nuance of Sun Wukong's character for the sake of either making him an entire asshole so your little meow meow can look completely innocent in comparison and/or making the monkey king's entire life & character revolve around said meow meow."

Like I get that fandom's supposed to be a kind of anything-goes environment, but one thing that honestly seems to be true of a lot of fandoms--and the western one for Sun Wukong & co. is certainly not immune from this--is that there often seems to be a kind of monoculturalization at work in what stories are created & what character interpretations are made popular. Across a multitude of fandoms, you frequently see basically nothing but the exact same tropes being made popular & even being insisted on for the canonical work (especially hasty redemption arcs & enemies to lovers these days), the exact same one-dimensional character types that characters from an original work keep getting shoved into, the exact same story beats, etc. And I get it to an extent, as fandom is generally a space where people just make art and fic for fun & without thinking too hard about it & without any pressure.

This seems to, however, often unfortunately lead to the mentality that it’s your god-given right to do literally whatever you want with literally any cultural figure without even the slightest bit of thought put into their cultural, historical, and even religious context, even (and sometimes especially) when it comes to figures that are really important in a culture outside your own. For such figures--even if you first encounter them in a children’s cartoon--you should be a little more careful with what you do with them than you would with your usual Saturday morning line-up. It of course has to be acknowledged that there exists a whole pile of absolutely ridiculous & cursed pieces of media that are based on Journey to the West & that were produced in mainland China, but for your own education if nothing else I consider it good practice for those of us (myself certainly included) who aren’t part of the culture that produced JTTW to put more thought into how we might want to portray these characters so that at the very least (to pull some things I’ve seen from the jttw western fandom) we’re not turning a goddess of mercy into an evil figure for the sake of Angst(TM), or relegating other important literary figures into the positions of offensive stereotypes, or making broad claims about the source text & original characterizations of various figures that are blatantly untrue, or mocking heavenly deities because of what’s actually your misunderstanding of how immortality works according to Daoist beliefs. Yet while a lot of this is often due to people not even trying to understand the context these figures are coming from, I do want to acknowledge that the journey (lol reference) to understand even a fraction of the original cultural context can be a daunting one, especially since, as I’ve mentioned before, it can be really hard & even next to impossible to find good, accessible, & legitimate explanations in English of how, for example, the relationship between Sun Wukong and the Six-Eared Macaque is commonly interpreted in China & according to the Buddhist beliefs that define the original work.

That is to say, I do think it’s an unfortunate, if unavoidable, part of any introduction of an original text into a culture foreign to its own for there to be sometimes a significant amount of misinterpretation, mistranslations, and false assumptions. There is, however, a big difference between learning from your honest mistakes, & doubling down on them while dismissing all criticism of your misinterpretation into that abstract category of “fandom drama.” The latter attitude is kind of shitty at best and horrifically entitled at worst.

Plus, as I’ve discovered, there is a great deal of interest and joy to be drawn from keeping yourself open to learning aspects of these texts & figures that you weren’t aware of! I can say from my own experience that I’ve always really enjoyed & appreciated it when individuals on this site who come from a Chinese background--and who know much more about the cultural context of JTTW than me--have taken the time to explain its various aspects. It often leaves me feeling like woooooaaaahhhhhHHH!!!! as to how amazingly full of nuanced meaning JTTW is like dang no wonder it’s one of China’s Four Great Classical Novels.

And I guess that right there is the heart of a lot of my own personal frustration and disappointment with the ways that fandoms often approach a literary work or other piece of media...like don’t get me wrong, a lot of the original works a fandom may grow around are just straight-up goofy & everyone’s aware of it & has fun with it, yet the trend of approaching what are often nuanced and multi-layered works in terms of how well they fit and/or can be shoved into pretty cliche ideas of Redemption Arc or Enemies to Lovers or Hero Actually Bad, Villain Actually Good etc...well, it just seems to cheapen and even erase even the possibility of understanding the wonderful complexity or even endearing simplicity that made these works so beloved in the first place. Again, I feel like I need to make it clear that I’m not saying fandom should be a space where people are constantly trying to one-up each other with their hot takes in literary analysis, but it would be nice and even beneficial to allow room for commentary that strives to approach these works in a multi-faceted way, analysis & interpretations that go against the popular fandom beliefs, & criticism of the work or even of fandom trends (yes it is in fact possible to legitimately love something but still be critical of its aspects) instead of immediately attacking people who try to engage in such as just being haters who don’t want anyone to have fun ever (X_X).

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Anyway, I know I didn’t cover even half of the stuff you brought up in the first place anon, but I don’t want any interested parties to this post to suffer too long through my text wall lol. I was asked to try my hand at illustrating Guanyin, but as with you I’m nowhere near as informed as I should be about her, so I want to do more research on her history and religious importance before I attempt a portrait. I’ll try my best, and do plan to pair that illustration with my own outsider’s attempt to summarize her character. From what little I do know I am in full agreement that her backstory is so incredibly amazing...just the fact that she literally eschewed the bliss of Nirvana to help all beings reach it, and even split herself into pieces in the attempt to do so (with Buddha granting her eleven heads and a thousand arms as a result)...man, I can see why she’s such a beloved & respected deity.

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As for what western fandom commonly does with everyone’s favorite god-fighting primate...I can talk about this at length if there’s interest, but for this post I’ll just say that I guess one lesson from all of this is that for all the centuries that have passed since Journey to the West was first completed, literally no one drawing inspiration from the original tale in the west (lol) has come even slightly close to being able to equal or even capture half the extent of the nuance, complexity, religious, historical, and cultural aspects, and humor that define Wu Cheng'en's story of an overpowered monkey who defied even Buddha.

So thank the heavens we'll always have the original.

#journey to the west #jttw #guanyin #sun wukong #monkey king #monkie kid #fandom #fandom critical

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queenangst · 3 years

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YOU COULD’VE JUST REPLIED ‘STOP’ TO MY COMMENTS INSTEAD OF FREEZING THEM I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN IT, PRICK

I was going to reply to one of your comments on AO3, but I suppose I'll do it here since you've sent me this. Whether you see it or not, read it or not, take it into consideration or not—that's up to you.

To respond to this ask specifically: what about freezing comments is me encouraging you to continue? To be clear, I chose to freeze those comments because I didn't want other people to respond to the threads, but I also froze your first comment—which didn't stop you from leaving two more on pick yourself up.

I hold no contempt for you. I have said it before, but I don't care if you (readers) dislike my works, aspects of my works, etc. That's fine. I understand not every fic is going to be everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. But what I don't understand is how you failed to see how disrespectful you have been to me as a writer.

For a fic I wrote specifically about management Izuku and hero Shinsou, to focus on themes of heroism and failure and so on, the only thing you remarked was that I should write a version of this fic for Bakugou and Izuku. This story is not about them, you know that. But you shouldn't imply that a BKDK version would be better. You shouldn't demand, multiple times, for me to write another version of my fic. You could have shared this in a polite way. You could have said you loved the concept, and that you think it would also be interesting with management Izuku and Bakugou. Instead you spammed me, sounding entitled and demanding (not only to me, but to multiple writers who I spoke to initially). If I wanted to write a fic like the one you suggested, I probably would have. If you'd brought it up even a little more politely, as someone who enjoys Bakugou & Izuku, I might have thought about it. But multiple demands definitely did not endear me to the idea.

For that note, I also already do requests and commissions sometimes. If you had bothered you might have known that, and you could have asked when they're open, or even just asked me now in general what I thought of the idea. I write things I enjoy; but I also enjoy writing for ideas that other people share for me, that I may not think of. But those start with people respecting my work, my time, and me as a writer, with no expectations that I might actually write if I don't feel up to it.

After those comments, you then went through multiple fics and: critiqued my characterization because it doesn't fit your personal view of Bakugou, called that critique constructive, emphasized ships (Kiribaku, Bakubowl) at me, told me to write more, and bashed a character/s (All Might, and by implication, Izuku).

I understand that not everyone gets when they're being rude on the Internet. So I'll explain: my characterization is my choice, by my preference, and you were critiquing me because how I write Bakugou doesn't align with how you see him. Because he's not, to pull from your comment, harsh enough. (Does Bakugou have to be mean all the time? Doesn't he change, develop, and grow? And have more than one aspect to his personality?) And I didn't ask for constructive/criticism. If I wanted any, I would have stated so. You could have at least asked first if I did, if it wasn't clear. Following that, I think I make it very clear in my works and in the tags that I write about platonic relationships. Focusing on my work through ships (though yes, you ARE allowed to interpret something as romantic, I can't stop you and that's up to you) is disrespectful to me as a gen writer. Again, if I wanted to write ships, I would. And then you said All Might, a character I clearly like, sucks (character bashing, not criticism) and also implied Bakugou would be better with OFA. On a fic that is All Might & Izuku centric, where Bakugou isn't even there. On top of all of that, very, very little of your comments are about the fics themselves, and mostly about what you, the reader, wants. Which is, apparently, not what I write. Again, you don't have to like my work. You are welcome to have your own opinions. But if you don't like what I'm writing: don't read my fic, don't comment on my fic, ask me to write something else when I have requests or commissions, find an author you do like better, or even write it yourself. I encourage you to do so!

I don't know how else to explain the ways you have been rude to me as a writer. I shared (some of) your comments so people would see what not to do as a reader, and others because it was frankly a little ridiculous and I wanted to make light of a situation that while wasn't hurtful to me, was completely baffling. I blacked out your name and froze the comments for you—because I was worried other people might go looking, and regardless of what you said to me, I wouldn't like to encourage people to go after you for something that doesn't even offend me. Because yes—a lot of people agreed that you were being very rude. I stopped sharing them because I saw it was spreading, and I didn't want more people to get on your case. And once I saw they were picking up attention, I wrote a disclaimer that mentioned what I just said, and also states something I think is a good ending point: I'm not here to post hate about commenters. But if there is a comment that makes it off AO3 and onto my blog, then there is probably a reason why.

Addition: I dearly wish that you are kinder to other writers than you are to me. And I hope that whatever circumstances you are in that lead you to saying anything you have to me change, for your sake. And I hope everything is kinder to you, too. Continue reading my fic, continue commenting if you want. Hate me, be rude. That's okay. But I won't say anything more to you. I have said what I think you could listen to, and keep in mind that other writers might be hurt by what you comment and how you say it.

#asks #anonymous

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lovestillaround · 5 years

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Thoughts about Phil’s last video (Draw My Life: Part 2)

So, it’s been two days and I still have trouble processing all the information from Phil’s newest video - that’s why I’m writing my thoughts down, hoping that it will give me more inner peace. Disclaimer: following text includes critique of the video, so if you’re sensitive to that kind of stuff/ not in the mood for hearing my negative opinions, please proceed with caution or stop reading. Love ya <3

So, Phil starts the video saying that he’s aware that we know what’s been mostly going on in his life during the last six years and that he’s gonna share with us all the behind the scenes facts. And that on itself is fine, but oh boy, nothing would prepare me for the amount of negativity that I was going to endure (and no, I’m not talking about the subjects of death and illness). I said it to my friend and I still stand by that opinion - the video was for me more like “20 minutes of complaining about/listing every bad thing that happened in my life” than actual “draw my life”. And well, obviously Phil has the right to reflect on his life in whatever way he wants, but as I was watching the video, I couldn’t help getting more and more frustrated with his lack of awareness, especially regarding the massive privilege that he has and has always had. (Also, I’m not trying to call him out for being rich and being able to afford things that I can’t afford - that’s not at all what this is about, it’s about the attitude and the way he chose to speak about those things).

While I do think that the video was full of lovely and cute moments, I’m going to focus mainly on what I found annoying or upsetting, just to keep it (relatively) short. So, I was talking about how in my opinion the video was filled with negativity. You might ask - where is it, Daria? Or more importantly - why is it bad? The response to the video is (at least from what I saw) overwhelmingly positive. Well, I’ll try to explain how I see it.

The video literally starts with Phil saying that London was (is?) 5x more expensive than Manchester, and that if their career in London didn’t work out, they would have had to move back to their parents. I have enough compassion to understand that it must have been hard for them to feel insecure about their finances (I know this feeling damn too well) - but I also think that people should, idk, be generally aware that their actions have consequences? They took a risk, and it was hard to live in uncertainty - I get that - but people having to live with their parents is a reality for so many people! So many young people don’t even get a chance to start an independent life, for various reasons. And I’m not saying that he doesn’t have the right to talk about his struggles - just for me, in the light of the rest of the video that is played on a similar note, it becomes clear that Phil isn’t aware of how much luck he’s had in life and how he has already started his life from a much better position than - can I say that? - probably the majority of people. So for me, what lacks in the video is, idk, maybe just one instance where he acknowledges his privilege? Or just generally him using a different language while talking about his experience, choosing his words more carefully, but I’ll get to that later.

The negativity continues when Phil talks about how he could not work out how to operate the radio control panel, how it was a bad decision to say yes to everything (although I admit, this one is just Phil acknowledging sth that he has learned over the years, which isn’t really negative but let’s still keep it on the list of bad things), anxiety, lack of sleep, stress, juggling responsibilities, people that they used to work with getting more from dnp than dnp did from them, dnp doing things out of obligation, not being able to fully create things how they wanted to, people being cynical about youtubers doing projects/not understanding youtube and media’s negative reactions, loads of office work, risking all their life savings to go on tour, heteronormativity of the interviewers, lots of work related to creating gaming channel videos, overworking themselves during gamingmas, frustration with people not realising how much work happens behind the scenes, people cancelling projects, losing money because of Manila.

On the other hand, the positives that Phil talked about were getting job at the radio, getting 1 million subs, interviewing people being a cool thing, everything about his relationship with family was very positive, getting a new team of people to work with and dropping some responsibilities like the radio show, success of the books and tours and games they created, creative freedom, positive relationship with his audience, improvement of the press over the years and people in traditional businesses becoming aware of what youtube is, creating and expanding irl merch, having fun on tour.

Then comes the moment when I got genuinely quite confused, aka the moment when Phil talks about not having a life. Like.... really? He has every right to feel what he feels but honestly, not that many people would count themselves lucky enough to be in a long term relationship, having a loving family, four friends that want to hang out with them, going out to dinner dates and cinemas on the regular, regularly going on vacations, being able to take private yoga or boxing lessons etc.

When I heard him saying “and I didn’t do any normal stuff people do, like getting a house or a dog”, that’s the point when I’ve lost all my hope. Like, I’m sorry Phil, but are you really gonna complain about not having time to get a house because of the life choices that you’ve made? Just… think about it. I’m not an expert on the standard of life in the UK but I personally can think of exactly zero people that I know who bought a house in their 20s. And I have to say, it’s upsetting that he seems to be so detached from what is the reality for many many people.

Sharing personal stuff on the internet requires courage and I don’t want to be the one who takes all this knowledge and uses it against him. But I’m genuinely upset with the way he handled things this time. As I was watching the video for the first time, at the end of it all I could think was - wow, you’re really that entitled, aren’t you?

And it makes me sad, because I see two possible reasons for him being like that:

a) He is not in the best place mentally, so that he can only really focus rn on the negative aspects of his life, regretting his past choices, being disappointed in how his personal life looks like. This could be supported the fact that for basically any major thing that happened in his life he decided to share with us and elaborate mostly the negative details attached to it, rarely the positive ones (see the list of positive and negative things that I included above).

b) He is completely unaware of what’s the average threshold for a “good quality life”, and he’s not aware of his own privilege.

To elaborate a bit more on the point b): one could see Phil’s video as maybe a reminder that everything comes with a prize and that even though a youtuber’s life might seem super easy, there’s still a lot of stress and work involved that we just don’t see. But… I’ve been aware of that. Nobody’s life is one-dimensional, and everyone has struggles. And of course they have to edit their videos and do the business stuff. But when Phil says how he sometimes wishes people were aware of his personal struggles, I can only think that this is the reality for many many people, not only celebrities on the internet. Idk, maybe I just wasn’t the target of this whole segment in the first place, but for me it sounds borderline patronising, and again, entitled, because as I mentioned, everyone has their own struggles.

But for me, Phil doesn’t seem to be aware that he was only able to make some of the life choices that he’s made because he already had a good start in life in the first place. He’s always had a safety net in form of his parents, so he could make a choice of risking everything and moving to London for example. And yes, coming back home and asking his parents for money could have been embarrassing for him and emotionally hard, but so many people could not take such risk, or any risk, in general! Because they have families that they need to take care of. Because they have not enough money to move to an expensive city, no matter the circumstances. Because they have no one left who would help them financially if something went wrong. And so many other reasons!

On one hand, I can empathise with his frustration. I know how it is to work my ass off just to be able to go to uni, while many people that I know get money from their parents, go to a couple of lectures and then party/do nothing really. And then having other people thinking that everything is easy for me because idk I’ve always had good grades so according to them I don’t need to work as hard. Is it frustrating? Yeah. It’s hard to be misunderstood, or having your work belittled. But I would never blame other people for not being aware of how much work comes with the lifestyle that I’ve chosen. And I’m aware that dnp were working their asses off to create good things for us, but also, obviously, they were hoping to make financial profit out of it. It might sound awful but they did not have to do most of those things. In many instances, they totally did not have to overwork themselves, because it was not like they were making money to survive, they were making money just to make more money, basically. Nothing evil in wanting to make money but honestly Phil, most people work super hard, and they don’t get millions for it. While I do acknowledge that they’ve been working hard, and that a part of their audience might have not been aware of that, I think that complaining about that seems quite… inconsiderate? Complaining about the lack of private life seems inconsiderate too, especially because most people aren’t privileged enough to just decide to put their work aside and focus on their private life whenever they want. Many people I know are overworking themselves too, simply because they don’t have another choice.

So, I’m quite upset. I don’t know what my point is. It seems to me like in that video Phil comes from a place of deep frustration, and well, I’m frustrated too. Fair game, I guess?

I want them to have a good life. I want them to do whatever the hell they need to do in order to be happy, I want them to get a goddamn dog and a house. But I also hope they’ll continue to grow, and that maybe next time Phil will be more considerate, and more careful with words.

#amazingphil #phil lester #dnp #phan #ramble

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yeeyee-alumni · 3 years

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This will be my last response to these essays because I don’t think we’ll get to a point where there’s mutual ground and that’s okay lol. I did want to respond though because you offered some valid critiques on my post as well. This won’t be as long as the other for sure (at least I hope not).

You’re correct in that it’s up to interpretation of whether or not Abby feels guilt and if the small moments they provide us with are a indication of that. I can’t help but feel had she had a conversation with someone about guilt, it would have been met with resistance and notions of “so predictable” and not made a difference (not from you specifically. A lot of players of the game would have hated it no matter what because it didn’t live up to what they had in mind). Maybe I'm wrong with this and it would have been well received but no way to know.

As I stated in my previous response, the connection with Lev and Yara seemingly was brought on by them saving her and vice versa. Whether or not she feels obliged to help them because of this, there’s no reason to believe she would have gone back to the WLF after going AWOL. Owen couldn’t go back after Danny. Lev and Yara absolutely wouldn’t make it past the front gates. It goes back to the theory about purpose. If she’s found a new purpose in caring for the two of then, then why would she go back to the WLF? That’s not saying that after 4 years she wouldn’t have befriended anyone. We saw small interactions with a few characters but nothing that would lead us to believe she created deep connections with multiple people that weren’t a part of the Salt Lake Crew. Is it possible? Yes. Was there sufficient evidence given to support this? No. She had a choice though and after 48+ hours of hell and back with Lev and Yara, it doesn’t seem out of the box that she would choose them (Lev,Yara,Owen/Santa Barbara [again pre Mel conversation] over a group that wanted her dead). That ‘you’re my people” line feels like the most obvious indication that her allegiances have changed and that it had something to do with the bond she’d developed with them through their ‘adventures’ (putting that in parentheses because adventures should be fun and not messed up lol).

In no way shape or form did I say you are not allowed to criticize writers. People have every right to criticize. What I said was it’s not cool to resort to personal attacks. Criticizing a story that you find to be poorly written is different than calling the writers talentless and not creative. Bring up whatever issues you have with pacing/character choice/scene structure/lack of thoroughness/etc, but simply calling writers less talented and less creative isn’t conrtsuctive criticism. That’s lobbing personal insults at them, not offering any sort of feedback on their professional choices. That’s where I have issues. Not with offering criticism in general. There is a difference.

As for the theatre, I’m honestly not so sure why you continually dismiss the reality that Abby also had traumatic experiences, not just Lev. No ones trauma is greater than anothers. Trauma is trauma. Nearly everyone in this game with a substantial role in the story has experienced trauma. If we look at their 3 days and limit it to that time frame: Lev lost his sister, had to kill his mother in self defense, and was running from a group he grew up with. Abby was nearly hung, had Manny killed in front of her, and found Owen and Mel killed (Owen being of most importance). Those are just a few examples for each. I never said I didn’t care about her choices and whether or not they were questionable. That’s you assuming. What I did was offer up a possibility that Lev was aware of what would happen upon giving her the map.

Eye for an eye is a concept for retaliation/punishment at its very core so suggesting dhe should have let Joel go because he saved her doesn’t make sense as an eye for an eye scenario. That could be viewed as a reward or a compromise which by definition is not what eye for an eye is about.

The retort to the essay wasn’t intended to have any personal bias so if there were points of that, it wasn’t intentional. My response was based off what the game itself presented and the writing it gave us at face value. The whole point was playing devils advocate with offering counter arguments. I am very much a ‘devils advocate look at things from a neutral perspective’ person because I enjoy discussions.The whole point of me writing it was that aside from the bias, the writing came off as you knew better and that it was your way or the highway. That’s what was mentioned in the response to the Joel essay that I don’t think was posted, that the bias gave off a vibe that wasn’t approachable and that it seemed like an “I know better this is how it is” piece.

As for the add on reblog after the initial post, you are entitled to feel how you do. Once more, I never said that wasn’t allowed. Sort as I echoed above, I’ve pointed out multiple times that the main issue was the tone and how it came across and that it doesn’t necessarily feel like it offers up an environment that would foster a constructive discussion. This game is something lots of people get very emotional about. I’m simply saying if the intent is to write a persusasive essay vs an essay in general, bias and tone could be hurting you instead of helping. But if the intent was to get all the thoughts down on paper and out and not necessarily to try and ‘recruit’ (very loose use of the word), then having the bias/tone/emotion makes more sense. You have a very valid point that perhaps a verbal discussion can work better because some things get lost in translation through writing as it is quite often these days. Again, I enjoy reading different takes on different mediums and seeing that a couple of your essays had popped up in the tags, I went ahead and read them. Keep doing what you’re doing and I look forward to future essays. (this might have ended up just as long as the other, I honestly have no idea lol, my bad but I enjoyed this back and forth!)

I really did too!

And I think it's totally fine for us to not come to an agreement regarding this. I feel like discussions like these (especially about art that tend to be quite subjective) need more of "two people voicing their opinion, having an exchange and the conversation ending with both parties sticking to their point of view and accepting/respecting each other for that".

This discussion, at least for me, has been enriching, entertaining, and challenging even, which is exactly what I'd hoped I'd get out of posting my essay(s) in the first place. So thank you again for being so open-minded, critical, respectful, and for reaching out in the first place!

Regarding my future essays, I will from this point onward put even more effort into being less "high horse"-y and more neutral, as I do of course understand how that would be much more helpful in getting people to engage in an actual conversation/discussion.

#ask #critique #feedback #tlou #enjoyed this entire exchange #it's the mutual respect and well-informed opinions on both sides for me #hope there will be more of it in the future

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i-am-very-very-tired · 7 years

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NICOLE July 5, 2017 at 7:22 am Please stop using mental illness as an excuse to be an asshole. Mental illness does not force you to be horrible to people. Also remember Kanye was doing this long before his breakdown. Rap is built on beef so frankly I’m not surprised he came for Kanye. He came for his wife and by all gossip accounts Kimye are obsessed with Bey and Jay. 4:44 is pretty great and some of Jay’s best. It’s also more than this stupid beef MARIA F. July 5, 2017 at 7:31 am I totally agree. Maybe Kanye’s environment should have prevented him from performing in such a state, but of course, he is their cash cow. But even if he was not feeling well, Jay Z has the right to be offended by what was said. At the end of the day, i believe this is all about controversy and selling records. Everybody has been focused on that line since the album dropped. RENEE2 July 5, 2017 at 7:39 am Okay, Deriding people’s mental health issues is sh*tty and I don’t condone it. But I don’t understand why people are acting shocked at Jay-Z, as though he were of such staunch moral fiber before. The guy is smart, successful, and can be funny but he is also a mercenary, deeply misogynist, and frankly, more than a bit sleazy. I mean, people have heard his rhymes about women, right? Not to mention his profligate use of the nword. Dude is hardly PC. Kanye is also a douche. Again, how many times has he been offensive. This is another misogynist, and one who has used homophobic slurs in his rhymes although he professes to be queer positive. We’re supposed to forget all that because we now deem him to have mental health issues??? As Nicole stated, we should not give him a pass just because he is not well, dude is an *sshole, plain and simple. NICOLE July 5, 2017 at 7:49 am Exactly. People act like having a mental illness is a magic wand that makes people forgive and forget what you did easily. That’s not how that works. It doesn’t erase why you did or how people felt because of your actions. I tell clients this all the time. You cannot control how people react to you. Being mentally ill may give them a framework for more understanding but again it does not erase the action. And Kanye was an ass before this. So yep. DEM July 5, 2017 at 8:13 am “he is also a mercenary, deeply misogynist, and frankly, more than a bit sleazy. I mean, people have heard his rhymes about women, right?” Jay Zs lyrics on women are actually among the least misogynist of the genre. Two weeks ago we had an Eminem post and not only was there no mention of his violent lyrics against women, it was filled with “he is so cute” comments. And my post on his lyrics some of which threaten a specific woman by name were moderated out. But here we are, the instant the subject is a black dude…. Its “dude is hardly PC”. “Not to mention his profligate use of the nword”…..lmao As if the N-er word was not already on the tips of white tongues. Yes’ its the song about black people in Paris and not white peoples unadulterated hate thats the problem. Those black people who dont wish to reclaim ithe word are entitled to that opinion and should just not use it. I stand firmly and proudly in the reclaim camp. This site reclaims “bitchy”, gay people reclaim the F word and Its not your business that black men and women have reclaimed the N word. RENEE2 July 5, 2017 at 8:32 am @DEM, I can’t tell if you are trolling (I think you probably are) or not but here goes: 1) The point that I was making was that BOTH Jay-Z and Kanye have used problematic language so we shouldn’t be shocked if that Jay is being insensitive in this instance, nor should we necessarily be sympathetic to Ye in this instance because he has a history or being an insensitive clod too. 2) I can’t comment on the Eminem thread as I am also not here for that trick for numerous reasons, including his misogyny, so uh, nice try 3) Though I wasn’t critiquing Jay’s use of the nword, but rather was saying that his use of it demonstrates that he does not subscribe to notions of what is considered to be acceptable, I am also not here for that term. It is ugly, it is violent, and I don’t think that it’s something that Black people need to reclaim. I don’t know how you got that I was not Black from my comments but I am so you can step off with telling how I should feel about. ERINN July 5, 2017 at 8:47 am Dem - I know Em has been called out plenty on this site. He hasn’t gotten a big magical pass by any means. I don’t actually think I saw the recent Em post – and I’ve been on this site for like 5 years or more. Some posts slip through the cracks, or people are busy, or whatever. Personally I think Em is incredibly talented – but also someone who grew up with a really f—ed up life. It doesn’t excuse his behavior as an adult, but I also don’t look at him and think “he had every chance, and a healthy relationship with women, why is he talking this shit”. He was a mess, he’s gotten a lot better about certain things, but the Slim persona is played up so much, and a lot of awful things are said across so many categories. I tend to think of Jay similarly. He got dealt a sh-t hand growing up – he pulled himself up, but unfortunately his lyrics still are incredibly problematic at times. He’s still incredibly talented, and I don’t think his lyrics are an exact display of who he is as a person. I think most artists exaggerate like crazy and try to keep a persona kind of separate from their real life, but it doesn’t mean that it’s ‘okay’ that they say the things they do. I’m not writing him off as a person because of it though. As long as there is growth happening – that’s great. But if they suddenly devolve into a much worse place, then I’m going to have to stop supporting them as artists. KONFUSED July 5, 2017 at 9:28 am @Renee2 whether you are black or not is irrelevant when you say “I don’t think that it’s something that Black people need to reclaim”..you should step off on telling other people how you feel about their use of the N-word it really doesn’t matter if you approve of it or not SANDERS July 5, 2017 at 9:58 am Nicole, from previous posts including this one, it sounds like you are a therapist. I’m surprised you are minimizing JayZ use of words crazy and insane to describe someone with a mental illness. Of course people with a mental illness have to examine their behaviours and coping strategies etc, though in the midst of a breakdown, self awareness takes a back seat. Lets also hold JayZ responsible for his mocking of people with mental health issues and I encourage you to check out the excellent comments from Claire down below. Me= If she's a therapist, I don't want her as mine. She probably works for talkspace? RENEE2 July 5, 2017 at 10:56 am @ KONFUSED Why should I step off telling a poster how I feel about the word when said poster is putting words in my mouth and twisting what I wrote? And again, the reason that I mentioned my racial identity was because the poster stated that I wasn’t in a position to comment on Jay Z’s use of the nword because they assumed I was not Black. Everyone comes here to offer an opinion and get on our respective soapboxes so GTFO with telling me not to share my thoughts on a topic. BRIDGET July 5, 2017 at 11:20 am @Konfused – you’re coming off like you don’t actually have something to say and just want to be mean to someone to make yourself feel better. RENEE2 July 5, 2017 at 11:53 am @KONFUSED Yep, that’s me, the proverbial angry Black woman, lol. Hope it’s not too damp where you’re stationed under the bridge. @ Bridget, Thank you!! IDONTKNOWYOUYOUDONTKNOWME July 5, 2017 at 2:05 pm Well, for example borderline disorder and what is perceived as “a-holeish behavior” kindof come hand in hand RONALDINHIO July 5, 2017 at 5:03 pm Whilst you are all saying mental ill health doesn’t give you a pass I’m gonna have to stop ya Many of the behaviours that West exhibited could be signs of a growing mania and paranoia that could present or exist co morbidly with and anxiety disorder or depressive illness. As reported he may have bi polar disorder which might not have been accurately medicated. All or none of these things may have been his actual disorder and all may have been exacerbated by lack of sleep and over work. His grandiosity, rambling, hyper activity, sensitivity moving into paranoia psychosis or mania all sounds like it could be easily described by a mental health disorder. Ignoring the lack of control someone has during an episode of mental ill health or trying to blame them when they often have little control is poor form. LLAMAS July 5, 2017 at 10:51 pm Sick. I have BPD and have never been described as an a**hole. People with BOD treat themselves the worst. FLORC July 5, 2017 at 7:04 pm And being a jerk can be a sign of mental illness. You cannot know either way unless you are much much closer than a commenter here. Im reserving judgement. Kanye is outrageous a lot of the time and shows erratic behavior, but also has appeared to have experienced some incredibly traumatic events. That doesn’t get healed easily if ever.

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