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akechicrimes · 5 years

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i’ve been thinking about the nature of the velvet room and what that means for goro akechi and also sae’s promise at the end of the game for adults to do better by the younger generations. by this i mean that i work in student services, and i have a headache.

there’s a pretty strong conclusion in the field of education that students do not succeed alone. they’re constantly being guided, assisted, and advocated for by adults. parents go into schools to argue for their child’s rights. they call the school to change grades. they help children at school with their homework--it’s an expectation that parents have the time and education to do so. learning disability staff work with teachers to help the students in the teacher’s class receive appropriate accommodations. college guidance counselors are in fact critical for the jump to college, because admissions officers don’t have the time to meet every single student in the world, and rely on college counselors to introduce them which students are worth speaking to. coaches guide students through athletics, but athletics is socialization, character-building, and sometimes also therapy. coaches in turn also function in the same way that college counselors do, because they also will promote and advocate for certain student-athletes to talk to recruiters.

on and on and on. adults at every single turn are helping children. it’s advocating, evaluating, assisting, and guiding all rolled into one.

i work in student services right now, which is an entire industry that’s popped up in higher ed under the assumption that the higher education system on a structural level is a) too complicated for one teenager to go through alone, and b) that left to their own devices, students are unlikely to succeed alone. when in need of help, student services is an entire office dedicated to providing adults as a resource for students, so that students can come in, speak to someone with administrative power, and get help. in the office that i work in specifically right now, these students have committed some sort of infraction or are reporting another student’s infraction, and are seeking to get through the university’s disciplinary system, hopefully unscathed.

there’s something that relieves the tedium of being a desk jockey by thinking about the place as a real life velvet room, but the more i think about the comparison, the more i feel like it’s not a silly, surface-level comparison. the underlying assumption of student services, and the velvet room, is that you cannot succeed alone. you cannot succeed without a significant amount of help, either from your peers, local adults, or long-nosed men who never give you a straight answer.

the reason why student services, and family/coach help, is so emphasized in student success is because this support network can and often IS the difference between failure and success for a student. student success is so often correlated with how much money the parent has to fund their education, how much free time they have to do their homework, whether or not they have reliable transportation, whether or not they had an adult to walk them through their lowest emotional moments, whether or not they had someone who believed they could succeed, whether or not they had someone to tell them to shoot higher and farther, whether or not they had a benefactor to give them the resources to do that.

now that i type this out. i would like to propose that most of navigating schools, systems, and life depends on your benefactors.

ok. benefactors, so i can get my own story straight, are defined by advocating, evaluating, assisting, and guiding. i would say that this is very similar to a lawyer. (the french word for lawyer is “l’avocat,” by the by.) the main distinction that i think a benefactor has from a lawyer is that a benefactor is also supposed to provide resources for the person they’re advocating for, and that the benefactee is supposed to, yknow, be able to do things for themselves, and actually use the resources they’re given, rather than just sitting pretty and having the lawyer do everything.

and now i’m going to shift this entire essay to be about benefactors, but i just figured out that that’s what shido is, but i’m also too lazy to go back and restructure the stuff that i’ve already written to reflect this discovery. so i’m typing this paragraph instead. i have a headache and i can’t sleep. fuck you

what’s compelling to me about akechi--and adachi, since we’re on the topic--is the ways that he’s set up as “he could have been the main character if not for X.” for adachi, the statement goes “he could have been the main character if he hadn’t self-isolated and blamed other people (specifically women) for his ensuing loneliness.” for akechi, it’s “he could have been the main character if adults in his life hadn’t consistently let him down, put him in the worst possible situations, given him very few resources to work with, and refused to advocate for him in any way, shape, or form, leaving him to do all of this himself.” that is to say, the phrase goes it takes a village to raise a child, and akechi was forced to do the work of what should have been fifty-something different people.

the shorter version of this is “akechi could have been the main character if he’d had a benefactor,” aka someone who actually took interest in his life success, gave him the resources to do it, and guided him on how to use those resources.

which brings me back to the velvet room.

akira, like most of the persona protagonists, loses parental and adult support in the beginning of the game. minato’s parents are dead, and his mental health seems to reflect the fact that he’s got very little adult support in his life. souji’s parents don’t call him once during his year in inaba, and dojima is, how do we say, not exactly much of a functioning adult himself. akira being cut off from adults in his life is more explicit in that his parents literally try to get rid of him.

but from the beginning of the game, from literally the first thing that happens in the game, akira gets a benefactor. the game starts off with finding sojiro sakura. it is the first thing the game asks you to do.

the thing about sojiro is that the game starts off presenting him as a manifestation of adults further driving akira into the dirt, but the fact of the matter is that sojiro is akira’s first benefactor. sojiro complains and whines and vaguely threatens akira in several different ways, but (1) sojiro’s threats for akira to stay in line are actually him taking an investment in akira’s success, because he’s telling akira to not get in trouble. they just don’t look like it, because he’s being gruff and hard-assed about it. (2) sojiro gives akira a place to stay, a physical and very fucking important resource for akira. akira doesn’t have to worry about being homeless, and akira doesnt have to worry about rent. the game would be very different if akira was homeless. (3) sojiro, again, complains and whines and threatens akira in several different ways, but he goes to shujin, where three adults (the principal, kawakami, and sojiro) all get together to, theoretically, talk about how to help akira succeed at that school. (this doesnt happen, but that’s what the talk was supposed to be. again, it’s an example of the ways that kobayakawa isnt doing his job as well as he should, and the ways that kawakami in particular is not being a good benefactor/advocate for her new student for whom she’s responsible for. kobayakawa tells akira he expects good behavior; kawakami says in front of akira and everyone and also god that she’d rather him transferred to another class. as a teacher, her entire JOB is to help him succeed, and the first thing she says is that she’d rather not do it. in comparison, sojiro IS doing his job as a parent, especially by asian-father standards, by showing up at the school, telling his charge to stay in line, demonstrating investment in akira’s educational success, providing transportation, etc, etc.)

the game would be very different if sojiro were not here. akira would be homeless or paying rent, and making rent would be consuming most of his time. akira would not have the time to be a phantom thief, and probably not even the time to maintain good standing in competitive academics. he’d get through his probation, i’m sure, but with great difficulty, and also despite great odds. being underfunded and under-resourced would only create greater incentive for akira to look into illegal activity, potentially falling prey to someone like kaneshiro who promises quick cash. like lavenza pointed out, the game is rigged and unfair, and it’s remarkable how we don’t find it supremely fucked up that the people most in need of support are those who are denied it and told to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps,” to “work hard and deserve your success,” to “keep your head down and do as you’re told.”

not to say that sojiro was THE deciding factor that determined akira’s life trajectory, but sojiro was really really really really really really fucking important, is what i’m trying to say.

literally like forty-eight hours after this, akira gets a whole bunch of new benefactors, including:

1) caroline/justine, providing resources and access to personas

2) yaldabaoth, providing a stable link to the metaverse (and if i can elaborate on this for a second, consider: rejection syndrome, that fun thing where shinjiro’s persona goes fuckin wild and tries to kill you, occurred in persona 3 but not in persona 4 or persona 5. persona 3 is the game in which people just sort of come by their ability to manifest a persona and wind up in the dark hour by accident. persona 4 and persona 5 has izanami and yaldabaoth, respectively, ensuring that persona-users get in and out of the TV world/metaverse safely, aka acting as a benefactor and providing a resource for persona-users. there’s a more stable link by far. this is, of course, complicated by the fact that izanami and yaldabaoth are also the gods that are proposing the harsh conditions for which usage of personas is required, but i would also like to point out that izanami and yaldabaoth are both beholden to the collective unconscious of humanity, and that yaldabaoth himself was born from that, and both of them actually have very little choice in the matter as a manifestation of humanity’s will.)

3) igor, even if igor is not igor, in that igor provides general guidance, the third eye, and encourages akira to pursue healthy relationships and support networks

4) MORGANA.

LITERALLY THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF MORGANA IS SO FUCKING WILD TO ME.

LIKE.

THINK ABOUT IT.

morgana being a literal manifestation of humanity’s hope and then condensed into a fucking CAT and then sent out with a mission to help AKIRA SPECIFICALLY is like. a FUCKLOAD of aid. hypeswap pointed out that morgana is basically kind of a minor deity, in that morgana (like yaldabaoth) is a manifestation of some aspect of humanity’s subconscious, and then morgana is MADE TO HELP AKIRA SPECIFICALLY. morgana doesn’t even LEAVE akira at the end of the game!!!!!! morgana was SO PERFECTLY TAILOR-MADE TO BELONG TO AKIRA that morgana STAYS with him!!!!!!!!! LIKE!!!!!!! imagine having a fucking SMALL GOD HAND-MADE FOR YOU, TO HELP YOU THROUGH YOUR DAILY LIFE, BEAT UP SHADOWS, TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR ACADEMICS, POINT OUT WHICH FRIENDS YOU SHOULD MAKE (LEGITIMATELY HALF OF MORGANA IS JUST HANGING OUT IN AKIRA’S DUFFEL BAG AND SAYING “HEY YOU SHOULD TALK TO TORANOSUKE NOW”), AND ENFORCING A HEALTHY SLEEP SCHEDULE. ON GOD. literally anyone who complains about morgana enforcing a healthy sleep schedule better be some ungodly motherfucker who gets nine hours of sleep EVERY DAY because i REFUSE to have yall discounting the importance of a healthy sleep schedule for a growing teenage boy

and as more than a few akechi-centric fanfics have pointed out, morgana is like, THE singular reason that akira and the phantom thieves even KNOW about stealing hearts in the first place. they don’t know anything!!!! ryuji and akira wouldnt have even made it out of kamoshida’s palace without morgana!!!! it was because morgana specifically told them about finding treasures, removing it, and leaving the shadows alive that they knew THE FIRST THING about pulling off a heist.

okay, so, akira had help. so what. why am i telling you this.

the reason why im telling u this is because traditional morality tells us that people do things because they are bad, and that circumstance is an excuse, not a reason, and that everyone always has a choice when it comes to doing bad things.

AND THAT’S TRUE. that’s super true. that’s very extremely true. correct. absolutely. especially when it comes to doing harm to other people, everyone has a choice to either cause harm, or not cause harm. period.

WHAT IS ALSO TRUE is that from a macro-scale, odds are NOT in certain people’s favors when it comes to succeeding. (and again, persona 5 would like us to look at things from a macro-scale, because it keeps referencing the rigged game and how odds are not in akira’s favor.) the rules are set up to have certain people lose, and keep losing.

bringing this back to akechi, akechi lost from the literal moment he was born, because he was the son of (a) wedlock, (b) political scandal, (c) and non-consensual sex, apparently. literally the only way he could have been any more disadvantaged by nature of his birth would have been some extremely dramatic birth-related complication, or a genetic birth disorder, or some other medical complication. so he’s already lost.

the part about “keeps losing” comes from his mother’s difficulties in raising a son alone while supporting herself, further underfunding her to do a task that should be done by at MINIMUM two people. her mental health suffers because of the strain, the lack of resources, the sheer fact that she’s raising a son she didn’t ask for and also didn’t consent to conceiving, resulting in her death. things get worse. akechi’s shoved into the foster care system. more adults who don’t care about him who do not invest in his success or well-being. more schools full of more teachers that are in themselves under-funded and under-resourced, meaning that akechi, amongst a bunch of other under-funded and under-resourced kids who by this point probably have a shitload of emotional and mental trauma, are all stuck together in an environment that is in itself increasingly less equipped to support these students.

the great irony of education is that schools receive more funding if the students in the school do well. hilarious, right? a school produces good students, and suddenly they have alumni funding, stakeholders, donations, so on and so forth. a school starts failing, and people pull out. students in struggling schools get even less help when, arguably, they’re the students who need more help.

like i said. rigged game. you lose, and you keep losing.

in comparison to akira, akira “loses” his skirmish with the justice system, and everything in his life sets him up to keep losing--and literally sojiro is THE ONE PERSON standing in between akira and continuing, successive losses, that would have piled up and compounded upon each other.

all this in mind, i’d like to propose that one of the reasons why akechi is so attached to shido is because shido is akechi’s benefactor. shido provides equipment for akechi, likely provides cash, most certainly gave akechi the gun he uses, probably had a hand in akechi attending whatever school he attends.

and to further complicate this, i’d like to mention that benefactors can and do come in terrible types: madarame, for example, was yusuke’s benefactor. i’ve mentioned yaldabaoth is a type of benefactor. kaneshiro is arguably a type of benefactor, although a particularly malicious and overtly parasitic type. as i’ve pointed out before, kobayakawa is a type of benefactor for makoto, in that kobayakawa offers explicit aid to makoto’s educational career.

having a benefactor puts you at their mercy. again, not to draw parallels between yusuke and akechi, but yusuke’s entire social link revolves around potentially getting a new benefactor post-madarame. yusuke ultimately declines for a variety of reasons, but i’d like to point out that one of the reasons is arguably that yusuke is hesitant to put himself at the mercy of a new benefactor’s wishes. if yusuke accepts that money, he’ll be beholden to please whoever’s funding him, and this greatly restricts his artistic freedom.

this is also part of the reason why it’s so fucking funny that you can mouth off to sojiro and sojiro, apparently, gives not a single shit. you tell sojiro that you’ve been a criminal for eight months and he helps you. you tell sojiro that you’ve gotten his adopted daughter involved in criminal activity and he’s just like “well it’s good futaba has friends i guess.”

sojiro is a type of benefactor whose help is... probably not unconditional, but hilariously close. morgana is the same way. caroline and justine are the same way. notably, morgana and caroline/justine were, yknow, made to help akira, and likely cannot do anything else. akira has a lot of benefactors who will help him regardless of what he chooses and how he utilizes their help.

a lot of the abusers we see in persona 5 are benefactors using their pull to make the benefactee behave in a way they want--people who can threaten to stop sponsoring, people who can threaten to leave if the benefactee doesn’t do as they like. this puts the benefactee in a precarious position of having to behave in a certain way in order to continue to receive aid.

circle back to shido: shido is akechi’s benefactor.

but akechi’s plan is to become shido’s benefactor.

NO IM SO SERIOUS. THAT’S WHAT AKECHI’S PLAN BOILS DOWN TO.

as some people have pointed out, akechi’s plan isn’t actually to kill shido. akechi’s plan is to make shido dependent on him. akechi is trying to position himself as having a valuable resource that shido cannot do without (access to the metaverse). what akechi’s trying to do is to position himself in such a way that shido gets a taste of his own medicine.

(which, personally, amuses me greatly, because akechi’s plan boils down to “oh well you abused me? i’ll abuse you back,” which is just. so fucking stupid and also very much exactly what anti-goro fans do 99% of the time, so the entire thing is just an endless source of schadenfreude.)

but as we know, this doesn’t really work out. first of all, shido likely operates as akechi’s benefactor in financial ways, and the fact that akechi requires shido alive and in power in order for his STUPID fucking plan to work means that shido has akechi by the throat. even if both of them are benefactoring each other, this means that, at best, they’ve come to a situation in which both of them are an equal threat to each other, so it’s really no surprise shido wanted to cut akechi loose.

and i think it’s important to note that shido is probably one of the very few adults in akechi’s life who actually helps akechi--again, in the same way that madarame helps yusuke (with a lot of fine print, coercion, and other hidden knives involved). people have pointed out that akechi did rely on shido’s praise--the value of emotional stability and improved mental health, no matter how slim, cannot be understated. (there’s a reason why people wind up in self-destructive behaviors; the behavior itself fulfills some need that the person has.) i’m not sure that akechi would even have a job at the police force if shido had not pulled strings to get him there. i’m not sure akechi would have the grades that he does at the school he attends if shido had not helped him get there. like any other employer relationship, when akechi proposed to help shido by utilizing the metaverse, shido is expected to provide the funds to ensure akechi can actually do that job, and those funds would have made a remarkable difference in akechi’s life. and all of these are conditional on akechi killing people.

when sojiro decided to invest in akira, sojiro drastically changed akira’s life trajectory, and protected akira from a lot of future misfortune, all at basically no cost to akira and without any strings. shido investing in akechi does the same, not only stopping akechi’s “losing streak,” but reversing it altogether into a winning streak.

suddenly, akechi’s in a school that actually gives him schoolwork that pushes him intellectually, actually prepares him for college, actually teaches him things. the better akechi does, the more he’s rewarded for it, because there’s actually teachers who are there who will notice. he gets paid for working with the police, which means better pay, better hours, better living conditions, more free time. people take note of his success. people start talking about him. all of a sudden, he’s getting interviews for being so remarkably young and still so adept as his job. and again, it’s all conditional on akechi fulfilling his deal with shido.

compare and contrast to akira, who has sojiro, morgana, and the velvet room all acting as his benefactor. the entire POINT of the velvet room is to be an unconditional, no-strings source of aid. meanwhile, akechi only has shido, whose help is highly conditional. the difference is remarkable. the difference between akira and akechi comes down primarily to the adults and other forces who took the time to invest in their success, future, and well-being.

all this in mind, persona 5 (although it has very little backbone in a lot of its execution and doesn’t like following through on its own train of logic) has the audacity to say: maybe people doing bad things is not certain people’s faults. it’s the fault of the rigged game itself.

so the question becomes: who’s setting up the game?

this is usually answered by “who’s the shitty benefactor?”

who has more resources and more ability than someone else, and provides those resources/abilities on a conditional basis? who has power over someone else and is using that power not to help, but to harm the person with less power? who’s using what they have in order to make someone else act according to their needs? who’s rigging someone else’s life circumstances?

the plot of persona 5 is the phantom thieves seeking “who’s setting up the game,” which turns into a sort of matryoshka nesting-doll escalation as they move further and further up the chain to find bigger and more comprehensive sets of games. start with kamoshida, who’s setting up unfair conditions and a rigged game in which ann, shiho, ryuji, mishima, and akira are at his whims in an increasingly-unfair situation. kamoshida, as the rule-maker of the game, needs to go. but kamoshida is ALSO part of a different game, which is shujin itself, which is being funded by (apparently) shido’s conspiracy to some extent. kamoshida is an olympic medalist who has no other prospects in his life and is stuck in a job he doesn’t really like because shujn has a deep investment in providing a competitive athletics program, because competitive athletics programs is a mark of a good school, and there’s a lot of money involved in making shujin a good school. kobayakawa is the next chain up, in that he’s strongarming makoto to catch the phantom thieves, but even kobayakawa is not the person making the rules; kobayakawa is at the whims of an even larger game. so on and so forth.

which brings me back to shido.

(for the record. it was this point that i realized that this essay had gotten out of control. because i’d started a whole other meta essay one other time, so i already had a bunch of thoughts about loki and the importance of akechi’s plan to take down shido in the way that akechi was hoping to, and i realized that this entire train of thought was rapidly taking me into “norse mythos analysis hours,” and i was like. fuck. fuck. god fucking dammit. i started this essay as a way to pass the time and cure my headache and now we’re doing this??? we’re really doing this????? fuck me)

“who’s setting up the game” is a neat observation that systems of oppression are intangible and operate without humans, but at the same time, are maintained and composed of humans simultaneously. (i know. it doesn’t make sense. it sucks.) palace rulers, then, are an attempt to locate intangible systems of oppression into a single human person.

in reality this doesn’t happen quite so neatly, but masayoshi shido is a nice fantasy that maybe, a very large portion of systemic corruption can be boiled down to one bald man with ugly glasses. he embodies literally EVERYTHING wrong in the world: corruption, misogyny, embezzlement, gross adults, manipulation and blackmail, murder, child abuse--basically everything you can think of. and from akechi’s point of view, shido is not only at the heart of government corruption, but also most of akechi’s personal hurts as well.

watch closely this very cool narrative trick that persona 5 forgot to capitalize on: you store all the shitty things in the world in one person, and then you take him out, destroying him and all the world’s sins all at once. if you locate all the sins in one place, you don’t have to worry about the fact that systemic injustice is permeated throughout every aspect of the fabric of our world, from the policies in place to the ways that we think to the ways that our imaginations are arrested from imagining new possibilities (the prevalence of anti-goro fans who insist that he’s scum of the earth being fair evidence of the ways that traditional morality prevents people from re-imagining a kinder world in which people can be held accountable for their actions in conjunction with empathy).

akechi, in particular, would like us to think that all the sins of the entire world are stored in the masayoshi shido--again, from his perspective, it certainly looks that way. but i don’t think we should underestimate the degree to which akechi engineered his own shitty situation with shido, and the degree to which akechi is a highly unreliable narrator of his own circumstances.

the SECOND after shido goes down, the PT are wondering why very little has changed. it turns out that shido is not the source of all the world’s evils.

shido was a symptom of the world’s evils, that’s for sure. shido is a uniquely-perfect piece of garbage that, by some freak accident, was a well-placed and well-timed fit for the government system’s flaws. the fact that shido got as far as he did is a symptom of the situation, but he isn’t the cause, or the source.

okay, now the phantom thieves have to go one level higher. they’ve got to kill yaldabaoth. yaldabaoth is the cause of everything, isn’t he?

also no. yaldabaoth is also a symptom of humanity’s desires. yaldabaoth was made by the human subconscious and, despite yaldabaoth being a bitchass motherfucker, yaldabaoth wasn’t just being a shit to the phantom thieves when he said that ultimately he’s just fulfilling humanity’s own wishes.

well, akira takes down this fucker too, but by this time the damage is done. we’ve realized that corruption cannot be contained in a single person. one person alone cannot be conceptualized as the Source Of All Evil. we’re forced to confront the fact that corruption is widespread, everywhere, and exists within individuals as well as in the relations between individuals.

compare and contrast this with the ending of persona 3, in which humanity calls down nyx to enact the end of the world out of some mass collective suicide drive. since nyx cannot be killed, and humanity cannot be stopped from wishing to die, minato becomes the seal to prevent humanity from calling out to nyx. in killing yaldabaoth, akira destroys the manifestation of humanity’s desire to be controlled and kept apathetic, but in both of these situations, the enemy is still humanity itself.

so as it turns out, despite the phantom thieves’ desire to take down shitty individuals in order to dismantle large-scale systems of injustice, the game would have us turn to the fact that this is not enough. the solution is always in the mass population--in everyone everywhere, and that our responsibility as individuals works in conjunction with the fact that everyone is collectively responsible simultaneously.

which brings us back to sae niijima.

i know, i know. i talk about akechi and the velvet room and shido and akira and sojiro for howeverthefuckmany words, and now i’m going to talk about sae.

sae is the center of persona 5. or at least, she should be.

all the threads that persona 5 has been tracking (or at least has been attempting to track) ultimately boil down to sae and her decision to become a defense attorney. sae takes up the idea of being a benefactor and makes it her profession. and sae, very specifically, tells akira that she, as an adult, will start taking responsibility for the younger generation.

sae says: we might be collectively responsible, and the injustices of the world may be a product of everyone everywhere. but it’s also true that the actions of the collective start with individuals. and that individual is going to be me.

persona 5 begins and ends with an adult saying that the game might be unfair, but i’m going to take it upon myself specifically to do what i can to try and stop that. i will be the benefactor that this kid needs. i will be the difference in someone else’s life. i will stop unfortunate events like akechi and shido from happening.

the truth is that benefactors can and do make a meaningful difference in someone else’s life. that’s the entire reason why they’re so critical to a child’s success in life. as it turns out, people cannot and do not succeed alone. and that it’s not unusual for a child to seek out adult help in any way that they can, and that in fact they should, and it’s normal and understandable, and that adults should seek to help children in any way that they can, lest situations like shido occur.

this is part of the reason why i really like that the velvet room has become such a staple in the persona series. the entire premise of the velvet room is based on the idea that people do need help, and that it’s not a moral failing if you aren’t able to succeed without someone in your corner.

anyway. say thank you sae, sojiro, and igor.

#meta #mine

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lokiarsene · 5 years

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More PQ2 liveblog thoughts–this time with no salt!

Ryuji acknowledging that what Kamoshida did wasn’t just physical abuse, and that what he put Ann through was even worse than that, was really refreshing to see, especially since the base game did very little to actually show Ryuji understand and acknowledge and care about Ann’s feelings and what she suffered. Any hope of development he had once Kamoshida was apprehended just went out the window, so kudos, PQ2.

Akechi telling Ryuji and Ann, who are particularly vocal about how much they hate Kamoshida (with good reason!) that he understands how they feel is…. painful. Very painful. Especially since what set them off is how absurd it is to think of a whole city built around the idea that Kamoshida is a hero. Of course Akechi would understand how that feels: the entire country of Japan thinks his piece of shit father is a good man.

I painted a tile red by accident, and Ann chimed in by saying it was a nice color. Of COURSE she’d like the color red. ;_;

I can’t believe I forgot this, but the contrast of Akechi having Bless/Light skills, and Joker having Curse/Dark? I love it. I love it a LOT. To me this is the most clear sign that Akechi really did have the capacity for goodness in him, that if he hadn’t been mistreated and deprived, he’d be the true hero his childhood self clearly wished he could be (see also: Robin Hood). And with that line of thinking, I find it equally fascinating that Ren’s innate talent is Curse/Dark.

I don’t pay much attention to the P5 fandom, but from what little I’ve glimpsed, people seem to have this misconception that Ren is some uwu cinnamon roll, when this is so damn far from the truth I really wonder if these people like,,, actually,,, paid attention to the game they were playing. Ren’s ultimate persona is Satanael. It shoots the Demiurge in the fucking face. His whole shtick is a gentleman rebel intent on purging corruption and impurity from society, and he does this while being affiliated with Dark himself. I think a lot of people, even some Akeshu shippers, may overlook Ren’s own capacity for darkness and controlled viciousness in the name of justice. People who evade the law must be dragged screaming back to the rule of law. There’s a reason why his dynamic with Akechi is as compelling as it is, and it’s because they are absolute equals, cordial rivals with similar powers, motivations, and yes, even inclinations.

I’m just saying, if people are able to see Akechi’s potential for being different/better than what he was, then the same can be said for Ren in the reverse. And by some accounts he really is quite questionable, though I’ve previously discussed the moral ambiguity of forcing a conscience onto the minds/hearts of people instead of allowing them to go to it willingly. Personally I stand with Akechi on the matter–FORCING change on someone, no matter how corrupt they are, is a problem unto itself. But I also agree with Akechi in that some people are so corrupt they just need a good killin’ though, so… y'know. Grain of salt and all.

All-Out Attacks in this are ALSO adorable. God I’m enjoying the look/style of this so much more than I did Q1, weirdly enough.

Boy I did not in any way at all miss Justine and… what’s the other one. Christine? Something? Oh no, it’s Caroline. Whatever. I didn’t miss them, and they are by far the lamest of the Velvet Room attendants. Anyone have any ideas as to why Ren’s VR attendants would be children? Because as far as I know in the other games, except for 2, the VR attendants were some reflection of the Wild Card user themselves. The VR attendant was either someone who would be their peer, someone they could learn from, or, with Yu and Margaret, a guiding figure, stern but helpful. And then Marie showed up so… whatever, I guess. I guess Yu learned how to listen to terrible poetry from a tsundere goth or something? Not sure.

I haven’t quite figured out how/why Justine and Caroline–and then Lavenza–can in any way relate to Ren, and part of me wants to say they were actually meant to be Akechi’s VR attendants if he were a true Wild Card user. Children with two different personalities with a strong sense of justice that doesn’t yield no matter what? That fits Akechi quite well. Those attendants then merging into a gentle but determined, soft-spoken girl who only wishes to find the truth and reveal it? That fits Akechi too. It reflects a gentleness/softness, a purity that he lost too soon.

When I put it that way, I can kinda see how they would fit with Ren, who is also seeking the truth because of his muddled memories (which is so convoluted, oh my god, don’t get me started), but they make so much more sense if I think of them as leftovers that were meant to go to Akechi first. But since Akechi isn’t a Wild Card user…. womp womp.

Mona’s outburst that Ryuji should respect Justine and Caroline, then backpedaling to say no, he doesn’t know them, but [respecting them] “just feels right” is………….. really interesting. He says they have something “unwavering” within them, and when they look at him, he gets the feeling he just has to listen to them–“there’s something deep in my core, this feeling that screams ‘I have to do what they say!’ wells up inside me.” IN TER EST ING.

And FINALLY your whole crew can join you in the Velvet Room! Takes me back to P2 days.

Akechi: “Still, two Personas at the same time? I’m impressed. My hat’s off to you, Ren.” FDJSKLFDSLK AKECHI YOU BRILLIANT MOTHERFUCKER

!!!

AND NOW MY BUDDIES CAN HAVE MULTIPLE PERSONA

FUCK YEAH FUN TIME

And Justine/Caroline speculate that the power of the Wild Card is changing to adapt, since “another with the power of the wild card is here as well.” I’m guessing that refers to the P3 or P4 protag?

After playing other JRPGs, I realized something about the Persona series that stands out and that I really enjoy: how talkative your teammates are. They encourage you, cheer you on, compliment you for an attack, express fear if you’re hurt; they thank you for the help you give them, they comment on how much health or SP they lose–it all feels that much more engaging and exciting. Plus it’s a small but really special way to show off their personalities and just how they work together as a team.

OH MY GOD

MY GAL MINAKO MAKING THE BEST FUCKING ENTRANCE

THAT’S MY GAL DSJKLAFJSDKL LET ME PUT HER IN MY PARTY DFJSKLFDaaa AND THE BATTLE MUSIC CHANGES TO P3-STYLED MUSIC WHEN SHE’S HERE JKFDSAJKLFSDAJFLSDJFKLSD OH MY GOD I WANT TO CRY

This is the kinda fanservice I live for, idc. The kind of fanservice that is fun and harmless, that just makes the story exciting. Because who doesn’t love a good crossover?

Oh my god hearing the P3 music again makes me want to tear up. Y'all don’t know how special P3 is to me ;_; It means so… so so so much. And seeing her again, and hearing this music, just fills my heart with so much painjoy that I want to cry.

I GET TO NAME HER? DFJSLAKFDSKL I JUST BURST INTO TEARS. I KNOW THIS IS RIDICULOUS BTIA FKJDSL SHE’S JSUT SO SPECIAL AND!! ATLUS IS FINALLY ACKNOWLEDGING HER!!!a

As a side note, I’m really touched to see Akechi interacting with others that aren’t in the PT. He is genuinely kind to them–a pleasant boy indeed.

“I watch the news pretty regularly, too.” Considering how many times you can check the TV in the dorm in P3, and that SEES would keep an eye on the Apathy Syndrome cases, she’s not lying. Good on Atlus for putting that in there.

Watching Minako bond with Futaba over headphones, and be so kind and friendly, just… warms my heart. THAT’S the P3 protag I know and love.

//THE POPCORN MAKER IS A TRANSPOSITION KILN, LIKE FROM DARK SOULS 3 FADSJKLFDS// THIS IS THE GREATEST GAME EVER MADE

Justine and Caroline confirm that the other Wild Card user they sensed was Minako, which I suppose makes it canon (sorta?) that Akechi is not a Wild Card user, and that his two Persona are likely a special case, caused by the severe split in his motives and in his heart thanks to Shido.

Persona fusion in this is really cute! Justine and Caroline slowly merge the film, do a dance, and butterfly wings sprout from their backs!

“But nothing’s certain in this world, and this problem isn’t going to solve itself.” I FUCKING LOVE YOU, MINAKO.

Watching Futaba struggle but still go through with trying to reach out to Hikari, to explain how difficult it was for her to socialize and share her time with others, also makes me look at P5 in a nicer light. I really did think Futaba had one of the better S-Links, it’s just that pedophilia bullshit that was a GIANT RED FLAG distracting me from the rest of it. If her S-Link had something like this instead–Futaba finds a girl who is like her, and wants to help her since she understands exactly how she feels, but she wants Ren’s help/advice with it–I would have been much happier.

YOU CAN PUT MINAKO IN YOUR PARTY OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Her Japanese voice is adorable by the way–so bright and friendly and warm.

#this is the ask tag #pq2 liveblog #pq2 spoilers

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auncyen · 5 years

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#persona q2 #persona 5 #goro akechi #lavenza #persona q #morgana #spoilers in general lol #at least there's only a month to speculate before the jpn release #can't go too crazy with theories there

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stuffandsundry · 7 years

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Lemme preface this with a big hello there! I didn’t actually expect anyone to reply to this post, and so comprehensively either, haha!

dynamojacks replied to your post: Alt. P5 Justice Confidant

Hrrrrrmm. Can’t say I agree with all of this. It’s not like ‘being foil to the protag’ is the flaw with the interaction - or characterisation, of all things - it’s mostly the way said interaction is framed. Also, he’s less of a direct foil to him and more an 'equal and opposite’. Goro isn’t supposed to relate to the protag entirely, that’s kind of the point. He envies him. But he’s on his level, so to speak. It’s that aspect that draws him to him.

I think we’re using foil in a two different ways here. I use it as shorthand for “we, as third parties to this story, are supposed to compare and contrast these characters”. So, yeah, he’s set up as an equal and opposite you are totally correct there, but Goro aint the one relating to the protag, we as the audience are the ones comparing them. And that’s when problems arise, because quite a bit about the protag is so open to interpretation.

He also kind of KNOWS he’s special because he’s.. seen him, and Morgana, in the Metaverse (see: pancakes ‘gaffe’). It’s not just a one-sided perception, he’s absolutely right and this is a big fuck-off hint that he’s a wildcard in hindsight.

yo what seriously? i thought that the pancakes thing happened in the hallway of the TV studio how the hell did i misremember that badly holy shit

I agree that this should have been dealt with better, and that we needed more interaction with the PT to build a collective bond. A WHOLE, WHOLE lot more. I live and breathe any writings that bring them all together, like really. But to narrow the issue down to the protag being foil just seems flimsy. They ARE fated rivals per se and for good reason, it’s just that this aspect was shafted to buggery when it got down to it.

It’s not protag being foil that’s the problem, it’s “protag is the foil, focused on almost exclusively to the detriment of any meaningful interaction with the rest of the cast.” like, yeah, it does work, to a point. but it also could be a lot better, by giving the others a chance to shine.

The ‘god’s game’ apparently meant nothing in the grand scheme of things. That was exceptionally bad writing. To build up shit like that, but for Goro’s role as wild card to mean next to zilch.

Oh yeah, that resolution was very much so missing, which is a massive pity. Like you said, the whole fated rivals chosen to duke it out by god is a pretty interesting concept. I’m interested to know more about why you think that Goro’s role as a Wild Card mean zilch, though. Personally, I’ve been looking at it as: “Goro did had the potential to choose many different paths that could shape the world around him, signified by the Wild Card, but he locked himself very quickly into one path where he was simply being used as a tool by Shido. This, in combination with him holding everyone at arms length, meant that he didn’t form any significant bonds either aside from the real fucked up one with Shido, and so he inadvertently crippled his own Wild Card ability from the beginning” Actually, on that note, maybe he couldn’t have formed confidants. Whenever you initiate a Confidant in-game, it’s Lavenza’s voice that you hear, not Caroline + Justine. Would Lavenza have reached out to Akechi? Hmmm...

Also regarding Goro and fame, he’s not as hung up on it as Ryuji is/was, not NEARLY as much. One, mistranslation (not ‘public image’ or 'celebrity’, but 'reputation with adults’ and 'charisma’), and two, he knows his fame is fickle and dangerous in itself, having lived it for long enough. Ryuji romanticises it, Goro does not. Goro resents that those people do not know him for who he is, Ryuji thinks that fame will make him beloved.

Yeah!!!! This right here!!! This is a great contrast to have, they’d be amazing foils!! Ryuji and Goro are practically complete opposites, but they also share a lot of similarities too despite that. I spent like 5 min on this section the first time, so these are just the things that instantly popped into my head, but you could also draw parallels btwn the fact that Ryuji’s dad being in his life made it worse, while Goro’s being absent made his worse, or they way that Ryuji always had his mother with him vs Goro who’s mother left him alone, or the way that Ryuji is very bluntly honest about everything vs Goro who tries to keep everything hidden behind a veneer of politeness, or public perception of ryuji as a no good thug even if he honestly just wants to do the right thing vs the perception of goro as the person who would uphold justice/stop the breakdowns even if he was the very same person who was causing them, but DESPITE ALL THIS CONTRAST, ryuji is one of the most empathetic members of the team and absolutely would have tried to help Goro if he’d only known sooner what kinda trouble he was in (re: first impressions of makoto as a prick vs jumping in front of a car in order to rescue her)

(Speaking of Makoto, she’s absolutely the person that has the most parallels to Goro, and she should have been his rival. Both joined the team through some form of blackmail, both have incredible pressure but on them by the adults in their lives, both very similar characters vis-à-vis approaches to life in general, actually wait one second i have a quote from a friend on this.... “But I think Makoto works really well in terms of how they’re narratively set up as opposites? idk, like Makoto’s approach to subterfuge is to orchestrate the people around her while Akechi’s approach to subterfuge is to manipulate the people around him, Makoto’s impulsivity means she can be prone to direct confrontation while Akechi is on guard until he’s literally right at the breaking point, I just think…. it would’ve been so much more interesting to explore more of this than putting the burden on protag to carry Akechi Interest”)

and oh god im babbling sorry I HAVE OPINIONS

As for Yusuke? Madarame’s exploiting of his talent to his own ends (check), Yusuke wanting to please him but also trapped and nigh desperate to leave (check), Madarame being essentially responsible for his mother’s death (check), Yusuke having to rely on him to survive, for roof over head (check), and would be ruined, and even die one way or another if he tried to escape (check, check, and double check). A comment Yusuke makes in Okumura’s Palace is extremely telling- about how someone who is oppressed will ‘desire for it’ (paraphrase). What’s even more telling, is when Yusuke said about Goro, quote: 'had I not met you all, I would have turned out like him as well’. Haru? They’re both puppets to their fathers. Both are manipulated for the sake of political goals. Both are actually sweet by nature- at least, not ruthless, and really have to be pushed to be (SIU Director’s comments about the plot to FRAME the PTs as being ‘too brutal’… imagine how much more actually KILLING would be..). And both started out with a naive(ish), idealistic core, if Robin Hood and his fixation on Featherman R is anything to go by.

Eyyyyyyyyy this is some pretty hella meta, kudos to you. Like yeah!!!! YEAH!!!!!!! GORO AND PHANTOM THIEVES INTERACTIONS.... THERES THE POTENTIAL FOR SOME REAL MEATY, REAL GOOD STUFF IN HERE....GIVE US MORE OF THAT PLEASE...

And part of the reason why opinion changed per se, was realising just how flimsy Goro’s own resolve was, and how vulnerable. He wasn’t hell bent on bringing disaster, he was clinging on to straws in desperation. Ryuji’s comment, urging him to realise that he was his own person, makes this much clear. Their ire was more focused on Shido at this point. Still, they did not really forgive Goro, and made this much VERY clear. In any event, the last point might have been down to cultural differences. I’m.. not sure, but to those who understood this scene, it didn’t come ‘out of nowhere’, so you can’t necessarily say that’s a writing flaw on it’s own.

Mmmm, sorry if I was unclear, but the two times I used ‘out of nowhere in this post were in regards to how i dislike goro approaching protag with little prior warning? So.... im not quite sure what you’re trying to say here. Out of nowhere is too strong of a term to use for this scenario, so if its a thing I’ve said someplace else in regards to the last scene then sorry, I’ll clarify now. It’s not out of nowhere, however, it stands in stark contrast to the entire team’s opinions of Akechi up until this point. Not necessarily a terrible, awful choice, but it is certainly jarring in a way that is completely avoidable. Which, again, brings me back to “give Goro and the other PT a larger share of attention instead of focusing on Protag”. Sae’s Palace would have been a perfect place for Goro’s facade to slip a little bit, and give the rest of the team a little bit of an idea of how he’s like when he’s not constantly on guard. Instead, Sae’s Palace focuses on setting Goro up as smart which............. he’s a teen detective that works with the police. We know that he’s smart already. We should have gotten more characterization in there instead! Giving us some form of transition, like, “he’s an enemy of the Phantom Thieves” -> “hmm, there seem to be some circumstances that we can relate to that made him the way he is now” -> “we understand why you did the things you did. we still can’t agree with it, but we know now.” ...Granted, the reason that I think of it as an abrupt about face could have been due to the face that they never mention Goro again after his battle. A short scene after Shido’s Palace had been cleared to look back on the impact that Goro had had on the PT would have been a great help.

thank you for your thoughts! c:

#dynamojacks #long post #p5 spoilers #sundrywritings;

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