#I mean in the idea that they were on CF not just because uwu Edelgard but because it's meant to FURTHER showcase how bad an influence CF is

[dmclemblems]

Another annoying thing I see said by people defending the choice to have Claude and Edelgard team up is the idea that Edelgard "respects Claude's position as leader, unlike the Church."

That'd be just another thing Hopes mischaracterizes, this time about Edelgard: she literally flat out says in 3H that she doesn't think Claude would make a competent ruler on her route. There's a conversation she and Byleth have about him, and if you the player call him a jokester she'll say "That much is obvious." If you say he'd make a good king, she'll say "Interesting... I never thought of him like that."

So either Edelgard is lying in Hopes (meaning she told another lie to Claude's face) or she's acting OOC. Which really shouldn't matter anyway because Claude should already see that as the ploy to get on his good side it clearly is. If he was really so insecure about his rulership that a known liar fluffing up his ego is enough to get him to listen then he's clearly not as smart as the game wants me to think he is. There's no way he got through the Roundtable meetings as its leader being that gullible! This whole take is just trash.

I've seen this/your argument before, actually! It's true that in Houses she doesn't even really seem to consider him a threat of any sort. In Hopes I do think she sees him as more of a threat (based on how she reacts to losing battles against him), but I don't really see respect. Also, Claude does mention they're just using each other. I don't think he particularly respects her either if the only reason he saved her life was "to have her in his debt".

I also wouldn't be surprised if Edelgard said nice sounding things to persuade him more, because especially in GW, when she's the one losing she would want to fluff up his ego as much as possible. Seeming cold and haughty would only put her in a worse situation. I personally don't feel like they respect each other because at every moment they discuss things in both routes, they have opposite views (and seem surprised by each other’s views in a “that’s not good” way).

Obviously there's how to deal with Fodlan and the war and all that's different, but even in Hopes you have Claude saying he plans to kill Rhea and Edelgard doesn't agree with it. Though I know a lot of fans say that's a reverse of Houses and don't like it because it mischaracterizes them and their Houses routes, it's still an instance of a lack of agreement or being on the same page. Even if you characterize them correctly, they still wouldn't still be on the same page.

As far as acting ooc, I could see it tbh. This game changed Edelgard a bit in the sense of making her less... I guess resolute, in a sense? In Houses she's a lot more fierce, but they definitely went the unfortunate uwu route in Hopes. It's like they decided if she was going to be happier in this game that it just meant needing to woobify her completely in any possible way, including having all her comrades agreeing with her and seeing everything her way (including Dorothea and Ferdinand, which is not the case in CF even if they do stand by her in that route. They still express their grievances even if they do follow her path). A lot of the way they wrote Edelgard came off to me as an attempt to make her more soft and not as stern. Her general beliefs were the same, but what they had her doing wasn't.

Also, the Church... doesn't not respect Claude's leadership. In Houses, they actually do. In Hopes, they don't interact with him enough to disrespect him. Just because the Church didn't give their Feduwuation its blessings (because why would it lol, there's a reason I still firmly refer to them as the Alliance in all my second half GW asks) doesn't mean they just don't respect him as a leader. The only point in which they would outright stop respecting his leadership is when... he started attacking the Church and invading a land that did nothing to their land.

Actually, Rhea says she's disappointed in Claude when they fight in GW, so... she obviously had higher expectations of him than stooping to being Edelgard's personal murder machine. Not just that but Claude doesn't even think for himself with any of this. It's just about "maybe Edelgard will do this" and "maybe Fodlan will do that". He doesn't think about his personal views, why others do what they do (like being church goers), etc. What he does isn't personally motivated and he's running around doing all this in hopes Edelgard won't attack them later... even though he knows she's going to??? And admits that outright???

So yeah, that whole Edelgard's view of him versus the Church's view of him? Literally just pulled out of someone's ass, because there's no instance in the game in any route where Rhea/the Church outright expresses that they don't respect Claude's leadership. In fact, in AG Rhea and Seteth worked with him directly, in person, to make a plan together. No letters, no messengers. Met with him in person to talk planning about the war (with Dimitri of course, but this is proof enough that they're willing to take his position as leader seriously enough that they would meet with him and put their trust in him).

im tellin ya, the only thing gw did right was let miklan live

#DCE Ask

[butwhatifidothis]

Who on your side is going to call you out? Literally every recruitable character except Bernadetta and Lindhardt? And you CAN'T objectively say that the route leaves an objectively worse off Fodlan. A lot of the characters have the exact same single endings they do in other routes. Meaning a lot of their endings are nice and happy and hopeful despite the fact they aided in the conquest of a nation. Hell, some single character endings specific to crimson flower STILL end happily despite this. Alois happily moves to remire and becomes a farmer with his family. Mercedes opens up an orphanage. Also you can't really use Felix' single ending as a mark against Crimson flower, seeing as that's also his ending in all his non blue lions endings.

Those quotes aren't actually addressing Byleth's actions beyond said characters being pissed at Byleth. 

The demonic beasts are never mentioned. The fact that you are aiding in conquest and genocide isn't talked about, just the fact that you are on the opposing side. And some of those characters that are pissed at Byleth and questioning them ALSO *conviently* forget those grievances once they're recruited. Suddenly everybody's all for blindly following byleth in their aiding the conquest of fodlann and the potential genocide of the last few nabateans.

So what, is edelgard "im going to assassinate my classmates and immediately get murdered by bandits in that attempt and nemesis did nothing wrong!" Adrestia suddenly master manipulator? Are all the characters just so blindly loyal to byleth that they're willing to ignore their morals? a

You broke down exactly why, no matter how you look at it, villain route or not, CF falls flat! Because inconsistent writing dictates that 3H can't go all the way with making CF/Edelgard too bad! The full scope of Edelgard's actions never being addressed, even off of CF (the Demonic Beasts are never called out, but the use of them is very clearly villainous given what they are, to use one of your examples)! This is why I have issues with CF - not because oh shit you're the bad guy, but in this regard they don't go far enough! This is exactly why my feelings are mixed towards CF, because of these exact flaws within it.

But even with that, there are still some things of what you said I don't quite agree with?

Like, Edelgard's and Hubert's endings apparently don't point to CF being a villain route, but Alois and Mercedes' do point it to not being one? Why are the latter's endings being given more weight than the former's?

"Those quotes aren't actually addressing Byleth's actions beyond said characters being pissed at Byleth."

...Um... yeah they are? Because they're pissed at Byleth for siding with Edelgard and the Empire? They're not just randomly mad at Byleth for no reason - the characters know what Edelgard and the Empire have done, they don't have to go down the laundry list when they express their anger at Byleth joining her/them. When Ignatz says “We can’t place the future of Fódlan in Edelgard’s hands. If you’re allied with the Empire, I have no choice but to fight you," him not specifically laying out every single crime Edelgard has done does not suddenly mean that those crimes aren't what he's referring to. Shamir saying “You still align yourself with the emperor? What a shame. Let’s make this quick. I don’t want the loser to suffer," doesn't mean that she's just peaved at Byleth for no reason. Ingrid’s quote, “You have chosen to assist the Empire, even while knowing of their deeds. I am truly disappointed in you, Professor. Prepare yourself, heel of the Empire! A wretch like you will never be qualified to rule over Fódlan!” very clearly lays it out that it is all that the Empire has done that is the reason why she’s mad at you and why she thinks you’d be a shitty ruler (and if Byleth is shitty for choosing to side with Edelgard, then that inherently means that Edelgard is also shitty).

Why are they mad at Byleth? Why are they criticizing you specifically joining the Empire? Why are none of them saying “Gee Byleth, it’s pretty ass of you to join Claude’s side, you heartless bitch” on VW? Or similar statement towards Byleth on AM and SS? Why is the Empire unique in being called evil, bloody, savage, etc.? It’s because the action of joining the Empire - joining Edelgard - is a bad one, one that throws away morals to chase the false image of “revolution” Edelgard posits. 

So what, is edelgard "im going to assassinate my classmates and immediately get murdered by bandits in that attempt and nemesis did nothing wrong!" Adrestia suddenly master manipulator? Are all the characters just so blindly loyal to byleth that they're willing to ignore their morals?

The answer? Yes. The same way that Byleth is blindingly loyal to Edelgard and throws away their canonical hatred of TWS to follow her, the other characters throw away themselves to blindingly follow Byleth. Byleth places their trust in Edelgard despite all of the horrible things she’s done, and their character becomes worse for it - the same thing happens to the cast that foolishly decide to continue placing their trust in Byleth despite siding with the villain Edelgard. They either stagnate in their character progression or outright regress, the exact same as Byleth, because CF as a route is all about regression. That’s Edelgard’s whole motivation. It’s not moving forward to a new future, it’s going back to how Fodlan used to be - back under complete Imperial control, with a Hresvelg as the one ruler of Fodlan. 

And Edelgard having one shitty plan and being wrong about history doesn’t mean she doesn’t know how to make others look worse than her, how to prop herself up as the hero of the story - we see this from Ladislava, someone who is genuinely completely loyal to Edelgard specifically, that characters genuinely fall for Edelgard’s words. We see this in how she makes Dimitri and Rhea and Claude into these targets that must be destroyed “for the good of Fodlan,” that she can easily shove any and all responsibility for her actions onto her victims. We see this in how she’s just “taking back humanity’s freedom” when she slaughters a heartbroken and maddened Rhea - maddened due to her actions - only to shove humanity under her actually tyrannical rule. Hell, her being ignorant of history again falls back into how CF is partly about ignorance - you’re always ignorant to the depths of your horrific actions due to blind loyalty, so being wrong about history and never being corrected is par for the course.

Where CF falls short is the following: 

the aforementioned endings that always remain the same even on CF, 

where certain characters aren’t given enough attention despite being on CF (Ingrid definitely needed a Felix treatment for specifically this route, since she’s going after the Kingdom directly, for example), 

where even with the idea of the BE getting influenced by the regression of CF they still way too easily side with Edelgard (Ferdinand is by far the worse victim of this), 

where the end result of Fodlan is unification no matter what route you do (more the game overall that suffers from this tbh), 

where the characters don’t mention the depths of Edelgard’s actions off of CF (which is partly why the BE staying with Edelgard on CF comes across poorly, because they never really delve into her actions so them not doing so on CF doesn’t come across very well) - VW is the worst offender of this, as while it makes some sense to have Edelgard be a sympathetic villain on the other routes, doing the same here makes literally no sense (you only know her as a warmonger trying to murder you).

I know this isn’t like, the most popular opinion, but I don’t find it to be an intrinsically bad idea to have the player initially think that they’re not playing a villain route until they go back over the numerous, frankly loud undertones of villainy and evil you help participate in and realize “oh shit wait a minute.” Dragging down characters with you on your path of ignorance and regression? Sounds cool! Playing the other routes and seeing what you essentially look like to all of the people you fight on CF - a heartless conqueror stamping down on all opposition - as you play from the infinitely more heroic POV of the other two lords (+ Byleth’s independent POV) and see Edelgard in the light of a villain (that light the non-recruited/non-CF characters see you in)? Neat! Realizing that you’ve helped a lying, racist, imperialistic warmonger get exactly what she wants as she drags down Fodlan in darkness and tyranny? Interesting! The water is just muddied by poor writing decisions/oversights, but it is very much still (villainous) water. CF is flawed, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t what it is.

But I will ask you this nonnie, if you don’t mind! If you don’t think CF is a villain route, what is it to you? Genuinely curious! 

#ask #anon #exqueuese me princess #anti edelgard #Anti-edelgard #Edelgard discourse #Edelgard critical #just to be safe #like talking about this made me realize that the other characters being ass on CF might actually be like. intentional #I mean in the idea that they were on CF not just because uwu Edelgard but because it's meant to FURTHER showcase how bad an influence CF is #since Byleth becomes way worse on CF and CF is all about making shit ass it'd make sense for characters that naively place their faith #in Byleth like Byleth did in Edelgard to regress to hell in their character arcs #it's debatable whether some should have been playable on CF at all (INGRID INGRID INGRID) but even with that they're like. noticeably worse #though even then if they're gonna have said characters on CF they should've been VERY noticeably worse - down to endings and shit like that #and seeing the difference between how non-recruited students react to fighting Byleth on CF vs off it kinda opened my eyes that wow #bitches DO NOT like Byleth on CF lmao #Funny how Byleth gets more criticism for joining Edelgard than Edelgard does for actually doing the shit that's bad lmao #(by funny i mean maddening) #but yeah! sorry if I came across rude just imo CF is very much a villain route lol

[dolleyantoinette]

edelgard/hubert

i have been blessed with the privilege to gush about these two goths i love them so much they were my first 3H ship thank you

1. Who would sell their soul to the devil to save the other.

Hubert. Whilst I believe Edelgard would be willing to do so should she ever need to, I think we all know Hubert would do so in a heart beat with no regrets what so ever.

2. Who would become a stalker, in the right (wrong) situation.

Once again, has to go to Hubert. Whilst perhaps it’s a bit of a cliché to put him in that role... I mean, he does literally kill people for her, whilst the contexts are different, there’s no denying Hubert is likely the stalker should the AU need it.

3. Who would pine away in silence their entire lives without confessing their love.

I wholeheartedly believe both of them, as the game suggests even after Hubert confesses his love for her, their nature of relationship is highly unknown. However, Edelgard, to me, seems to be the one who would supress her emotions for the sake of maintaining a professional relationship.

4. Who would leave their friends, family, and life to move overseas to be with the other one.

Hubert. Boy literally tries to run away to a whole ass other country when he’s like 10 for Edelgard. He’s commited.

5. Who would be the most worried the other might cheat on them.

I’m certain that the two have enough confidence and trust in eachother to never fear about affairs, but out of the two, Edelgard. Mostly because Hubert would likely never think so lowly about her and such a thought wouldn’t concern him. And I mean... Hubert’s hot. El’s making sure no one steals her tall goth bf.

6. Who would run into a burning building to save a stranger while the other calls 911.

Hubert would run in; Edelgard is on the phone. No explanation is needed.

7. Who would haunt the other after death and chase away other suitors.

Edelgard. No real reason why, I just can imagine it better for some reason.

8. Who would stand up at the other’s wedding and say they object.

Edelgard. If she were to go for another, Hubert would be hurt, no doubt of it, but would respect her decision and want her to be happy. Whilst I’m not saying Edelgard wouldn’t be the same, Hubert is more likely to stay sat down.

9. Who would write long, beautiful poems for the other.

Hubert, with no doubt at all. First of all, it’s in his aesthetic. Secondly, no one can convince me that deep down; at heart, Hubert is the definition of an overdramatic romantic poet of the 1800s. He most certainly writes poetry for his beloved Edelgard.

10. Who would love the other no matter how evil the other became.

Hubert. Say whatever you like about Edelgard and her morals, but he sticks with her no matter what choice she makes and whatever path she goes down and I’m certain nothing she does or will do can change that.

11. Who would be the most likely to become an addict (gambling/drugs/etc.).

Edelgard. I can ramble about this prompt specifically for a good while, but to keep things short, El shows she is someone who gets very committed to her ideas and plans, whilst I may be oversimplifying that, I feel as though she is more likely to become an addict with a personality trait like that.

It wouldn’t be out of character for Hubert to engage in such activity, but he’s more likely to shake things off and go to work the next day.

12. Who would propose in a grand gesture of some kind.

Edelgard. To be a bit more comical, I can imagine that she doesn’t intend for it to be so grand, it just... accidently turns out that way.

13. Who would go berserk at harm or death befalling the other.

Hubert. His entire life has really been structured around Edelgard. In losing her, Hubert doesn’t just lose a lover, or an emperor, he loses his own life. Who is he without Edelgard? What has he worked for without her? Everything he has done is a result of his devotion for Edelgard. Losing her would ruin him.

14. Who would spend too much money on expensive gifts for the other.

Edelgard. Whilst I’ve seen a lot of the fandom portray her as a very passionate and open lover, in my eyes, I kind of imagine her to be a bit more... awkward in romance, not in that she’s shy and uwu soft, but more in that she’s not really got an awful lot of experience in sharing herself openly. When you’ve got money, it’s a great way to display affection without the cringy parts.

15. Who would fight an impossible battle to give the other time to escape.

Hubert. He kind of already does in the non-CF routes, so no need for much of an explanation, he’ll lay his life down for her.

16. Who would be able to spend centuries in misery waiting for the other to be reborn.

Hubert. As I’ve said, he’s willing to do pretty much anything for her. Whilst Edelgard would wait, Hubert would be able to cope far better just thinking of her.