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woman-loving · 3 years

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I’ve been reading some articles about lesbian identities in Indonesia, from the late 80s to the 00s, and wanted to share some quotes that highlighted a couple trends that I’ve also noticed in reading about butch/femme communities in other countries.

1) There are different expectations about sexual distinctiveness and marriage to men are attached to butch and femme identities. There is a greater expectation that femmes will marry men, and femmes more often do marry men, though some butches do as well. Marriages to men seem to be for convenience or in name only, and women may continue to have female lovers.

2) Distinctions are made between real/pure/positive lesbians (butches) and other lesbians (femmes) who are “potentially normal.” This shows the flexibility of lesbian identity, where they can be gradations and contradictions in what it means to be a lesbian (e.g. a woman being a lesbian but not a “real lesbian"). The category has cores and peripheries, rather than everyone being equally lesbian or else completely outside of it.

3) There are disagreements between members, which cross butch/femme lines, about the meanings of these identities and whose lesbianism or community involvement should be taken seriously. The first passage describes femmes as engaging in a “more active appropriation of lesbianism as a core element of their subjectivity.” The boundaries of lesbianism can potentially expand or contract as people struggle to define it.

4) People don’t always meet the community expectations attached to their identity.

I think these passages help complicate the picture of what lesbian identities can look like, and some of these same tensions and debates are common features of lesbian identity in many different cultures. I also think these issues--the (differential) weight given to relationships with men, the notion of positive versus negative lesbians, and the active appropriation of lesbianism by peripheral members--are relevant to bisexual interest, since these questions also shape bi women’s engagement in lesbianism/lesbian communities. (And we can say that without claiming that any particular women in these narratives are “really bisexual.”)

Anyway, without further ado... (this first one picks up right in the middle of a passage because I couldn’t get the previous page on the google preview :T)

From “Desiring Bodies or Defiant Cultures: Butch-Femme Lesbians in Jakarta and Lima,” by Saskia E. Wieringa, in Female Desires: Same-Sex Relations and Transgender Practices Across Cultures, eds. Evelyn Blackwood and Saskia E. Wieringa, 1999:

“[...]negative lesbians. We are positive lesbians. We are pure, 100% lesbian. With them you can never know. Before you know it, they are seeing a man again, and we are given the good-bye.”

Father Abraham, who had entered during her last words, took over. “Let me explain. … Take Koes. Again and again her girlfriends leave her. Soon she’ll be old and lonely. Who will help her then? For these girls it is just an adventure, while for butches like Koes it is their whole life.”“Yes, well, Abraham, … my experience is limited, of course, but it seems to me that the femmes flee the same problems that make life so hard for the butches. So they’d rather support each other.”

“In any case,” Sigit added, ‘they have become active now, that’s why they’re here, isn’t that so?” And she looked questioningly at the three dolls behind the typing machine, Roekmi and my neighbour. The most brazen femme had been nodding in a mocking manner while Sigit and I were talking.

“So we’re only supposed to be wives? We’re not suited for something serious, are we? Maybe we should set up a wives’ organization, Dharma Wanita,[23] the Dharma Wanita PERLESIN? Just like all those other organizations of the wives of civil servants and lawyers?” …

“Come on, Ari,” Sigit insisted, “why don’t you just ask them? You could at least ask them whether they want to join?” Ari found it extremely hard. Helplessly she looked at the other butches.

“Do you really mean that i should ask whether our wives would like to join / our / organization?” One of the butches nodded.

“Ok, fine.” She directed herself to the dolls.

“Well, what do you want? Do you want to join us? But in that case you shouldn’t just say yes, then you should also be involved with your whole heart.”

“You never asked that of the others,” the brazen femme pointed out, “but yes, I will definitely dedicate myself to the organization.” Roekmi and the two femmes at her side also nodded. (Wieringa 1987:89-91)

The above example is indicative of the social marginalization of the b/f community. it also captures in it one of its moments of transformation. The defiance of the femmes of the code that prescribes the division of butches and femmes into “positive” and “negative” lesbians respectively indicates a more active appropriation of lesbianism as a core element of their subjectivity. At the same time it illustrates the hegemony of the dominant heterosexual culture with its gendered principles of organization.

Yet, however much the butches conformed to male gender behavior they didn’t define themselves as male; their relation to their bodies was rather ambiguous. at times they defined themselves as a third sex, which is nonfemale[…]. [...] [Butches’] call for organization was not linked to a feminist protest against rigid gender norms. Rather they felt that nature had played a trick on them and they they had to devise ways to confront the dangers to which this situation gave rise. Jakarta’s b/f lesbians when I met them in the early eighties were not in the least interested in feminism. In fact, the butches among them were more concerned with the case of a friend of them who was undergoing a sex change operation. They clearly considered it an option, but none of them decided to follow this example. When I asked them why, all of them mentioned the health risks involved and the costs. None of them stated that they rather preferred their own bodies. Their bodies, although the source of sexual pleasure and as such the object of constant attention, didn’t make it any too easy for them to get the satisfaction they sought or, at least, to attract the partners they desired.

From "Let Them Take Ecstasy: Class and Jakarta Lesbians," by Alison J. Murray, in Female Desires: Same-Sex Relations and Transgender Practices Across Cultures, eds. Evelyn Blackwood and Saskia E. Wieringa, 1999:

Covert lesbian activities are thus an adaptation to the ideological context, where the distinction between hidden and exposed sexual behavior allows for fluidity in sexual relations (“everyone could be said to be bisexual” according to Oetomo 1995) as long as the primary presentation is heterosexual/monogamous. It is not lesbian activity that has been imported from the West, but the word lesbi used to label the Western concept of individual identity based on a fixed sexuality. I have not found that Indonesian women like to use the label to describe themselves, since it is connected to unpleasant stereotypes and the pathological view of deviance derived from Freudian psychology (cf Foucault 1978).

The concept of butch-femme also has a different meaning in Indonesia from the current Western use which implies a subversion of norms and playful use of roles and styles (cf Nestle 1992). In Indonesia (and other parts of Southeast Asia, such as the Philippines, Thailand’s tom-and-dee: Chetame 1995) the roles are quite strictly, or restrictively, defined and are related to popular, pseudo-psychological explanations of the “real” lesbian. In the simple terms of popular magazines, the butch (sentul) is more than 50% lesbian, or incurably lesbi, while the femme (kantil) is less than 50% lesbian, or potentially normal. Blackwood’s (1994) description of her secretive relationship with a butch-identified woman in Sumatra brings up some cross-cultural differences and difficulties that they experienced and could not speak about publicly. The Sumatran woman adopted masculine signifies and would not be touched sexually herself; she wanted to be called “pa” by Blackwood, who she expected to behave as a “good wife.” Meanwhile, Blackwood’s own beliefs, as well as her higher status due to class and ethnicity, made it hard to take on the passive female role.

I want to emphasize here that behavior needs to be conceptually separated from identity, as both are contextually specific and constrained by opportunity. It is common for young women socialized into a rigid heterosexual regime, in Asia or the West, to experience their sexual feelings in terms of gender confusion: “If I am attracted to women, then I must be a man trapped in a woman’s body.” Women are not socialized to seek out a sexual partner (of any kind), or to be sexual at all, so an internal “feeling” may never be expressed unless there are role models or opportunities available. If the butch-femme stereotype, as presented in the Indonesian popular media, is the only image of lesbians available outside the metropolis (e.g., in Sumatra), then this may affect how women express their feelings. However, urban lower-class lesbians engage in a range of styles and practices: some use butch style consciously to earn peer respect, while others reject the butch as out-dated. The stereotype of all lower-class lesbians whether following butch-femme roles or conforming to one subcultural pattern is far from the case and reflects the media and elite’s lack of real knowledge about street life. […]

The imagery of sickness creates powerful stigmatization and internalized homophobia: women may refer to themselves as sakit (sick). An ex-lover of mine in Jakarta is quite happy to state a preference for women while at the same time expressing disgust at the word lesbi and at the sight of a butch dyke; however, I have generally found that the stigma around lesbian labels and symbols is not translated into discrimination against individuals based on their sexual activities. I have been surprised to discover how many women in Jakarta will either admit to having sex with women or to being interested in it, but again, this is only rarely accompanied by an open lesbian (or bisexual) identity. I have found it hard to avoid the word “lesbian” to refer to female-to-female sexual relations, but it should not be taken to imply a permanent self-identity. It is very important to try and understand the social contexts of behavior, in order to avoid drawing conclusions based on inappropriate Western notions of lesbian identity, community, or “queer” culture.

From “Beyond the ‘Closet’: The Voices of Lesbian Women in Yogyakarta,” by Tracy L Wright Webster, 2004:

Most importantly a supportive community group of lesbian, bisexual and transgender women is essential, given that these sexualities are thrust together in Sektor 15. Potentially, a group comprised of women from each of these categories, that is lesbian, bisexual or transgender, may prove problematic to say the least, given that the needs and issues of each group are different. Clearly the informal communities already in existence in Yogya are indicators of this. Any formal or organized groupings would certainly benefit by modeling on current, though informal organisations. In the lesbian network, transgendered women (those who wish to become men or who consider themselves male) are not affiliated, however many ‘femme’ identified women who have been and intend to be involved in heterosexual relationships in the future, are among the group in partnership with their ‘butch’ pacar (Indo: girlfriend/boyfiend/lover).

Organisations of women questioning sexuality have existed in Yogya in the past. A butch identified respondent said she was involved in the formation of a lesbian, bisexual and transgender network in collaboration with another Indonesian woman, who also identified as butch, 20 years her senior. The group was called Opo (Javanese:what) or Opo We (Jav:whatever), the name highlighting that any issue could be discussed or entered into within the group. Members were an amalgam of both of the women’s friends and acquaintances. The underlying philosophy of the group was that “regardless of a woman’s life experience, marriage, children…it is her basic human right to live as a lesbian if she has the sexual inclination”. The elder founding member of this group, now 46, married a man and had a child. She now lives with her husband (in name only), child and female partner in the same home. Although this arrangement according to the interviewee “is rare… because the husband is there, she is spared the questions from the neighbours”. Here I must add that it is common in Java for lesbians to marry to fulfill their social role as mothers, and then to separate from their husbands to live their lives in partnership with a woman. This trend however is more common among the ‘femme’ group.

From "(Re)articulations: gender and same-sex subjectivities in Yogyakarta, Indonesia," by Tracy Wright Webster, in Intersections: Gender and Sexuality in Asia and the Pacific, Issue 18, Oct 2008:

Lesbi subjectivities Since gender, for the most part, determines sexuality in Java, sexuality and gender cannot be analysed as discrete categories.[64] For all of the self-identified butchi participants, lesbi was the term used to describe their sexuality. This is contrary to the findings of two key researchers of female same-sex sexuality in Indonesia. Alison Murray's research in Jakarta in the 1980s suggests that females of same-sex attraction did not like the term 'lesbian'[65] due to its connection with 'unpleasant stereotypes' and deviant pathologies.[66] In 1995, Gayatri found that media representations depicting lesbi as males trapped in female bodies encouraged same-sex attracted women to seek new, contemporary descriptors.[67] The participants in this research, however, embraced the term lesbi as an all-encompassing descriptor of female same-sex attraction and as Boellstorff has noted in 2000, Indonesian lesbi tend to see themselves as part of a wider international lesbian network.[68]

The term lesbi has been used in Indonesia since the 1980s, although not commonly or consistently. Lines, les, lesbian, lesbo, lesbong and L, among others, are also used. Female same-sex/lesbi subjectivities in Yogya are not strongly associated with political motivations and the subversion of heteropatriarchy as they were among the Western lesbian feminists of the 1960s. By the time most of the participants in this research were born, the term lesbi had already become infused in Indonesian discourses of sexuality among the urban elite (though with negative connotations in most cases), and has since become commonly used both by females of same-sex attraction to describe themselves, and by others. Most learnt from peers at school and through reading Indonesian magazines.

However, public use of the term lesbi and expression of lesbi subjectivity has its risks. Murray's research on middle to upper class lesbians suggests that females identifying as lesbi have more to lose than lower class lesbi in terms of social position and the power invested in that class positioning. This is particularly in relation to their position in the family.[69] Conversely, her work also shows that lower class lesbi 'have the freedom to play without closing off their options.'[70] As Aji suggests, young females, particularly of the priyayi class may not be in a position to resist the social stigma attached to lesbianism and the possible consequences of rejection or abuse. Yusi faced this reality despite the fact that s/he had not declared herself lesbi. Hir gendered subjectivity meant that s/he did not conform to stereotypical feminine ideals and desires.

With so much at stake, many lesbi remain invisible. Heteronormative and feminine gendered expectations for females in part explain why lesbians may indeed be the 'least known population group in Indonesia.'[71] Collusion in invisibility can be seen here as a protective strategy. The lesbi community or keluarga (family) is what Murray refers to as a 'strategic community' of the lesbian subculture.[72] The strategic nature of the community lies in its sense of protection: the community provides a safe haven for disclosure. Invisibility, however, also arises through the factors I mentioned earlier: the normative feminine representations of femme, their tendency to express lesbi subjectivity only while in partnership with a butchi, and their tendency to marry. Invisibility, as a form of discretion, however, may also be chosen.

Gender complementary butchi/femme subjectivities [...] Due to the apparently fixed nature of butchi identities and subjectivities and their reluctance to sleep with males, they are seen as 'true lesbians,'[79] lesbian sejati, an image perpetuated through the media.[80] Similar to the butchi/femme communities in Jakarta, in Yogya, butchi are identified by their strict codes of dress and behaviour which include short hair, sometimes slicked back with gel, collared button up shirts and trousers bought in menswear stores, large-faced watches and bold rings. Butchi characteristically walk with a swagger and smoke in public places. In her research in the 1980s, Wieringa noticed that within lesbi communities in Jakarta the strict 'surveillance and socialisation 'may have contributed to the fixed nature of butchi identities.[81] In Yogya, this is particularly evident in the socialisation of younger lesbi by senior lesbi (a theme I explore elsewhere in my current research).

The participants held individual perspectives on butchness. Aji's butchness is premised on hir masculine gender subjectivity and desire for a partner of complementary gender. Yusi expresses hir butchness differently and relates it to dominance in the relationship and in sex play. The participants who told of the sexual roles within the relationship emphasised their active butchi roles during sex. As Wieringa suggests, this does not necessarily imply femme passivity as femme 'stress their erotic power over their butches.'[82] It does, however, indicate one way in which the butchi I interviewed articulate their sexual agency.

Femme subjectivities, on the other hand, are generally conceived of as transient. As many of the interviews illustrate, femme are expected by their butchi partners to marry and have children: butchi see them as bisexual. In public, and indeed if they marry, they are seen as heterosexual, though their heterosexual practice may not be exclusive. In the 1980s, Wieringa observed that femme 'dressed in an exaggerated fashion, in dresses with ribbons and frills...always wore make up and high heels.'[83] In the new millennium, the femme I met were also fashion savvy though not in an exaggerated sense. Generally they wore hip-hugging, breast-accentuating tight gear, had long hair and wore lipstick and low-heeled pumps. Their feminine representations were stereotypical: it was through association with butchi with in the lesbi community that femme subjectivities become visible.

#what is a lesbian #butch femme #indonesia #lgbtq #wlw #lgbtq history

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gayregis · 3 years

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Hi! I've followed your blog for a while and love your individual takes. Can you do a succinct character study of Milva? I'm thinking of writing with her soon. (Bonus points if you could hypothesise how she'd intereact with other witchers of Kaer Morhen).

i have awakened

to me, milva represents the dichotomy and conflict between vulnerability and strength. she’s an inversion / subversion of the “action girl” trope - the girl in a group of guys who is just as badass as any of them... (more information on the trope here and here). the trope of the action girl is also intended to be sexy and conform to the expectations of the viewer, still feminine in appearance or having a “glow up” moment where she discovers femininity and is happy with it.

milva stops all of this bullshit in its tracks in manyw ays. primarily, she is not perfect and infalliably strong. instead of being capable in everything with no real depth or difficulty, she actually struggles immensely and has many self-percieved flaws and insecurities. just because she’s a badass in combat doesn’t mean she doesn’t have emotions. she berates herself, particularly in baptism of fire, multiple times for being illiterate / uneducated / “simple”, as well as a woman. throughout baptism of fire (the only book of the series where she actually got any development, let’s be honest) she is faced with her insecurities extensively.

milva was raised in a very traditional sodden peasantry upbringing, from which she was taught lessons about how men and women are expected to and “should” act. she rebelled from this, seeking ways in which she could not conform to the expectations of womanhood - she prides herself on her strength, which is her skill at archery. when she is reduced to her gender, she becomes indignant and volatile as she should: we can see this possibly best demonstrated when she punched cloggy for his misogynistic demands to her, and gave him a concussion with one punch. she reacted in this way not only because his views were bigotedm but because she has spent her entire life saying, “i’m not what people expect of a woman, i’m not!”

thus goes that when she had to reveal her pregnancy to the group, she was ashamed of herself and very insecure. she had spent much effort rebelling from “traditional feminine roles”, but now was restricted to exactly that - pregancy, which is a role of a “traditional woman” in her cultural gender norms. as she says to geralt, she compares herself now to a chicken, instead of a red kite (a “milva” in elder speech, and “milvus milvus” in real life scientific terminology). she took the name red kite because it’s a bird of prey, it’s ferocious! it kills without looking back... and she felt then that she “got herself stuck” in a situation where she was expected to care and nurture - the complete opposite of what she has based her identity around. this is the dichotomy of maria, her birth name, and milva, her chosen name. when she reveals her pregnancy to geralt, she refers to herself resentfully as “a millstone, a typical bloody woman!” because she resents herself for being now tied to the social expectations of womanhood through her pregnancy.

additionally, her pregnancy showed that she can be swayed by social pressures, or was at once swayed - instead of laughing in the face of traditional femininity, she felt pressured to act as the she-elf in the scoia’tel squad did, she was socially pressured into having sex with a man. her pregnancy is a result of her exposing herself to a traditional feminine role (which she didn’t enjoy, but now still has the consequences of).

she likely felt too guilty to abort the pregnancy because childbearing and rearing is an expectation traditionally placed upon women.

she continued to travel with geralt after she found out that his quest was to save his daughter, because her logic was that if she would lose her own child because she did not want to carry the pregnancy to term, she could at least endavour to save geralt’s child - it would be “a life for a life,” rather than just having an abortion on her own and “losing a child” without ‘making it up somehow’ (again, conservative ideas, because that’s how she was raised and precisely what she is trying to outgrow in her character development).

(this excerpt is from another ask i answered about milva’s pregnancy)

what her development is, is accepting that she can simply exist as herself outside of the confines of social pressures. she has to ask herself what SHE wants, not what other people want or expect from her. instead of trying to rebel from what her traditional society wants from a woman, or trying to follow the needs of a man (geralt), she has to do what she wants for herself. for example, in tower of the swallow, she cuts her virgin’s plait because “she’s not a virgin, nor a widow.” this can be seen as her growing away from the expectations of a virgin, being open about the fact that she is no longer a virgin, but still conforming to the societal standards which surround them.

milva’s other subversions of the action girl trope come from being independently masculine (instead of “i learned it from my brother”) ... she learned archery from her father, but he died when she was young, so she didn’t receive mentorship far into her childhood. another way she subverts her trope is that the action girl usually is fanservice-y and is thus pretty much a “sexy lamp”: i.e., a sexual object (”if you can take out a female character and replace her with a sexy lamp “). she comes off as a real person with deep emotions, so that rules out being a lamp. additionally, she is sexy as in she is attractive, but she is not meant to be a romantic interest for geralt or any of the other male characters. she does not wear feminine clothing ever (refused to get into a dress in lady of the lake), she wears men’s clothing which is remarked upon several times.

milva also is independent out of survival. when her father died and her mother remarried, her stepfather abused her, and her mother did not stand up for her. in self-defense, she beat her stepfather to death and ran away from home. she’s been mostly along since then, hunting alone, though she collaborates heavily with the dryads of brokilon and scoia’tel commandos. she has a difficult time trusting others to have her best at heart, because no one has ever looked out for her besides herself.

other (obvious, but important to state) character traits include:

directness. why say three dozen words, when three will do? she doesn’t beat around the bush and will say the truth without mincing words or making pleasantries.

short temper, and impulsiveness. her exhausted gaze became that of a wolf. don’t fuck with her. sometimes she says or does things she regrets immediately after.

maturity. she is not above apology and admitting her faults and weaknesses. unlike geralt in baptism of fire, she is willing to accept the company of comrades once they have gained her trust.

moments of clarity? sometimes, she can just say exactly what is going on, in a very sort of meta way. such as in baptism of fire when she says that to her it seems that everyone who comes into contact with ciri dies.

action, not words! as opposed to characters like regis, she doesn’t spend her time philosophizing or thinking too much about things. if something needs to be done, she gets it done immediately without overthinking the options. she’s good on her feet this way, but finds discussions about ‘what could be and why things are’ confusing.

in regards to how she would interact with the other wolf witchers:

i think she would try to fit in with them as much as possible, maybe feeling a need to get validation and respect from them as they’re capable fighters and men, she would want to be seen as their equal and afraid that they wouldn’t see her as such. but they are cool guys, so i think they would like and respect her. if geralt was around, i think she would be in even better spirits, and she’d have good humor probably (razzing geralt about being a handful, how’d you grow up with this guy, has he always been like this hahaha...). it also depends on who else is in the scene but that’s how i think she’d interact with them. she’s similar to geralt in many ways (strong but very insecure) so i think they’d appreciate her. she would probably see them like the brothers she never had.

#milva #ask #anon

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lollytea · 3 years

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Speaking of I realize baloo isn’t your typical male character. He isn’t a sexist jerk and he respects Rebecca regardless of gender (between me and you those two are in love damn it)

Yeah thats another thing!! If I’m gonna talk about how great Becky is, i should also mention my main man.

Baloo, like Rebecca, is a difficult person. He’s lazy, conniving, doesn’t take things seriously when he should, is always late and this behavior can be insufferable sometimes. But one thing the show always makes perfectly clear is that his heart is huge.

He’s immensely warm and friendly to everyone he meets (unless he doesn’t like you. then he has no problem expressing it.) and he completely adores children. When he met Kit, his reaction to seeing this little boy crash into him, knocking him off his feet, was utter delight and he took him under his wing on the spot. He dotes on molly, always referring to her with cute nicknames like honey, pumpkin, muffin, button-nose.

He’s just so openly sweet and affectionate with the kids, with Rebecca, with everybody hes friendly with and, considering he is a male protagonist of a cartoon released in 1990, its just very nice to have that sort of thing depicted as frequently as it is here.

(Kit too, is a very wholesome subversion of a what a young boy in a cartoon was expected to be at the time. Yeah hes cool and mischievous but he’s also just as strongly defined by his gentleness and compassion. But goddamn one character tangent at a time. We’re talking about Baloo.)

And the sexism thing is also a notable thing like. Early on in the show, Baloo has a lot of gripes with Rebecca and most of them aren’t even irrational. I don’t blame him for being pissed off. Whenever they argue, (often) he has no problem criticizing her. But in spite of that, he had never once degraded her for being a woman. I’m almost certain that throughout the entirety of Talespin, Baloo has never made a sexist remark, whether it be serious, or even just a casual joke. Never.

Ok but lemme talk about the episode that revolved around sexism. So you’d expect, in the typical early cartoon formula, that Baloo, the main character, should be the one who has to learn the lesson that girls are just as good as boys blah blah blah. But no, he already knew that going in. Sexism is not the moral of the episode, its just the conflict from an outside source that kicks the plot into gear.

A sexist man is running his mouth about ‘Higher for Hire’ and thus they’re losing business because of it. Baloo is repeatedly mocked for working for a woman and refreshingly, he never lets the taunts make him feel insecure. He doesn’t have a moment of “maybe they’re right” he doesn’t blame Becky for being the reason he’s getting this treatment. He just sorta shrugs it off at first, openly stating that Becky is the brains of the operation and casually calling the sexist opinions “hogwash” (The way he barely reacts makes me believe that this happens a lot. and considering its the 30s-40s, it probably does.)

He does get progressively more annoyed as this goes on, not because he’s starting to believe it, but because the guy is just really obnoxious and hes starting to grate on his nerves.

Baloo’s scheme in this episode involves masquerading as a woman in order to prove a point. Now i couldn’t say for certain if Talespin’s depiction of cross-dressing is offensive. I think the trans community might have a clearer take on that. BUT its worth noting that Baloo frequently dresses as a woman over the course of this show and never has the joke been that he felt emasculated doing so. Nor has it been the cross-dressing itself, usually its just treated as a means to an end, and the joke is usually either how far Baloo is willing to go for his scheme (wearing a disguise) or that people are somehow unable to see through it, or the comical nature of how he’s revealed.

And I cannot stress enough that he does this voluntarily. It does not take a lot for prodding for him to decide he needs to put a dress on. He’s got that whole Bugs Bunny thing about him. Like I don’t think it was Talepin’s intention but....Baloo seems to be just legitimately into drag and I find that quite endearing.

So, uh, I went on a tangent. (TLDR; I think the way Talepin portrays Baloo’s opinions on sexism and his lack of toxic masculinity is really neat. Thank you for your time.)

#talespin #nobody:#me: yes i know youre all dying to know. here are my thoughts on gender roles in talespin

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dynamics-of-an-asteroid · 7 years

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I really would like to know your opinion about Sherlolly and Molliarty 💕

My opinion on Sherlolly grew as my opinions on fandom politics thankfully matured cause it’s really easy to make assumptions about M/F ships since typically they’re filled with everything Progressive Fandom supposedly hates.

But what I’ve come to realize is that Progressive Fandom is kind of full of shit.

It says one thing (“we want better material for this female character!”), but then proceeds to do the complete opposite (takes a male background character with exceedingly less material and creates mountains of fanworks to the point where even the creators start giving him more screen time over the female character). It’ll come up with all these tl;dr think pieces that seek to blame some other outside sources as to why this keeps happening (“men are just written better!”, “there’s just more male characters to choose from statistically!”, etc.), but there’s really no denying which types of ships and characters and dynamics and narratives it actually values when you see what kind of content dominates creative spaces that no one is controlling except the fans.

So I realized a lot of my “concerns” were just the result of theoretically wanting the most subversive conceptualization for the ship as any good Progressive Fandom member prides itself on seeking, but then falling in to the same traps that reinforce a very biased hierarchy Progressive Fandom measures everything by and upholding ridiculous standards that I wasn’t holding everyone else to.

For example, I’ve done the typical “pOoR mOlLy :(( sHE dEseRveS bEttEr tHaN sHerLOcK” spiel everyone seems to say after watching ASIB since that scene is meant to elicit a reaction. She very clearly was in love with him and particularly series 1 & 2 Sherlock, despite whatever good he was doing or moments of ~humanity~ he had, was overall a pretty rude, abrasive dick. He wasn’t this way just to her, but Molly is a legitimately decent person on a show full of assholes so there was some part of me that wanted to protect that, you know?

However, my reaction shouldn’t have been “Wow, Molly deserves better than Sherlock”, it should have been “Molly deserved better from Sherlock because she deserves common fucking decency.” Her unwavering love for him is always considered a problem that needs to be either removed entirely or given to someone else more deserving. It’s never Sherlock’s behavior that’s the problem that needs to get checked because Progressive Fandom doesn’t typically criticize male characters for their actions. You excuse, you explain, you apologize, but you don’t with any kind of negative intention seek to frame their reaction in any given situation as the part that’s wrong. The feelings of white dudes are valued over everything and everyone.

So my reaction of “come on, Molly, let’s get out of here and find you someone better” sounds noble, but all I’m really saying is “Well he’s an ass and we can’t do anything about that, but your crush on him is definitely fixable!” Again, she’s not the problem here, her love for him is not the problem here. He is the problem here, his rudeness is the problem here. There’s absolutely something we can do to fix that and we know this because part of his character arc was about becoming warmer and kinder. “Molly deserves better” is such an empty, meaningless statement when you really get in to it and I cringe every time I see it now.

Plus, something I’ve noticed that seems to be exclusive to the ship is most people in fandom ship one of these characters with Sherlock or are invested in a dynamic that includes him in it. And I guarantee you there’s a scene or a moment or a line that Sherlock was the source of that you had to go fix with fic or meta or some AU gif set or something because you wouldn’t still care about it if you didn’t. He’s done some pretty horrendous shit to these characters that far surpasses what he did with Molly at the Christmas party. But we’re not saying poor John he deserves better (hell we’re not even saying poor Sherlock he deserves better), we’re not saying poor Mycroft he deserves better, or that poor little Lestrade deserves better. It’s always poor Molly, specifically, because Progressive Fandom isn’t about to micro-comb through her material like they do with male characters in order to flesh her out more and find ways to make her a person of equally nuanced value to Sherlock. Then it would be easier to see why he’d extend more than just common courtesy to her, which lays the foundation for potentialness (specifically romance cause no one is gonna flip their shit about friendship), and now you’re sighing in agony about having to deal with a love interest - and worst of all - yet another M/F ship existing.

And listen, I get it - M/F ships have everything and it’s obnoxious. They get the coveted title of being “most likely to happen”, they get all the exposure, all the juicy arcs, all the cast conversations when it comes to their expressions of sex and love and romance being treated as completely plausible and entirely normal, etc. But when Progressive Fandom notoriously doesn’t produce nor consume F/F media let alone at the same rates as M/M media, when Progressive Fandom deeming a female character “too awesome/independent for romance” is basically a death sentence in spaces where romance and pairing up characters is the name of the game - what are people supposed to do with Molly that doesn’t decrease her visibility or sideline her entirely in the name of what? Making sure heteronormativity doesn’t happen? Cause looking at tumblr’s most popular M/M ships that are full of exceedingly harmful gendered stereotypes about the characters then being further conceptualized in to gross top/bottom discourse among other issues, that pesky problem of not reinforcing heteronormativity shouldn’t fall solely on M/F ships cause they’re not the only ones perpetuating it.

From what I can tell, Sherlolly shippers are the only people placing her in multiple kinds of dynamics and narratives that seek to explore the depth of her character without treating all of her material with Sherlock like a joke or a predicament that must be changed (which is different from fixing some bumps or gaps or straight up missteps that may be present, and there are some, but no one is denying that). Sometimes it’s a reversal of expectations, sometimes it’s not, and that’s pretty standard summary of any ship in fandom, really. You don’t have to like what they’re doing, but the door is always open for these diverse, inclusive stories Progressive Fandom wants so badly to be brought to the table yet I get the feeling they won’t be walking through it any time soon.

so tl;dr - the ship isn’t bothering me and any faux-criticisms I had about it in the past I can easily say about other ships, including my own, so it’s not fair to condemn one but then bolster another with the same elements. As long as they aren’t engaging in anything harmful or pushing any Ists, Isms, and Phobias, which they aren’t, I’m cool.

And I’m not even gonna lie, I could not stand Molliarty in the beginning stages of fandom.

I hated how Jim from I.T. was treated as a separate person from Jim Moriarty just to give Molly a cuter and more fun version of him to continue dating (to be fair, this ship isn’t the only one that did this, [don’t even get me started on the Richard Brook\twin thing omfg], but I loathed this trend regardless of who did it more cause particularly with Jim everyone would always push the ‘we don’t know anything about his private life!!’ excuse to justify wildly ooc shit [and still do to this day]).

I hated that narrative of Molly ~softening~ monstrous beast!Jim with her kindness and in return he became obsessed with having her love him, but she couldn’t cause he’s a bad person or whatever, so he’d protect her until his dying days instead (I recognize the trope, I personally can’t stand that trope, but I still don’t understand why it was applied to this dynamic).

I hated all the creepy undertones in a lot of the really early fanworks that were like “come with me little girl and you’ll never be hurt again” (look, MY ships are capable of creepy undertones, but particularly with this ship it felt more like an impending sense of doom that Molly was getting herself in to a really skeevy, fucked p situation which is gross).

I hated with a goddamn passion that still consumes me to this day that Little Red Riding Hood/Big Bad Wolf aesthetic cause it’s just piggybacking off what I just said of this lecherous devil ready to devour this unsuspecting and naive victim (as you can imagine I don’t like imbalanced dynamics so a lot of this one is just personal irritation too, but it still feels like you’re having to compromise their characters by bastardizing the shit out of them in order to get this to work).

I hated how Jim was treated like her sassy gay best friend who’d stay up at night watching Say Yes To The Dress with her and Toby, and gushing about cute boys when someone did a more platonic bff take on the ship (this was the biggest one for me because Andrew was walking a fine enough line as it was with Jim to not have everyone go ahead and throw his character into stereotype hell anyway and I hate most fanworks with Jim for this very reason, so again this problem isn’t exclusive to the ship).

And I hated how Molly tapping in to her inner darkness thanks to Jim awakening it somehow always took the form of her becoming sadistic and murderous to illustrate how strong she really is in an effort to put her on even footing with him so she’d get the love and respect and appreciation she wasn’t getting else where through being his faithful killing babe (besides having problems with women having to become badass and bloodthirsty in order to equal strength of any kind, the implication she can only be treated right through bad people is unsettling).

After making that list, I realized a lot of why I couldn’t stand it was tied to general misinterpretations of their characters that was floating around fandom, so putting those specific versions of them together to make a ship out of it was unforgivable to me. I’m gonna make an assumption here and say I’m willing to bet a lot of their earlier stuff wasn’t made by the shippers themselves and that it was people from other ships making material for it based off what they thought it was. So for all I know a lot of what I hated wasn’t even what the ship was about cause I know that’s the case for old stuff about my ships. None of us really had the numbers to change public opinion about how we perceived it, so there’s a lot of lingering misconceptions thanks to those works and I might have just listed all of them for Molliarty, I don’t know.

But a lot of this seems to have gone away now in any case? Not all of it, but it’s been replaced with lighter, more comical material which is still not the ballpark I’d personally place them in, but I’m not in that inner circle of shipping so I don’t know why it took that turn. They could be trying to counter fanon ideas surrounding the pairing, they could be trying to build up a more diverse selection of fanworks, I have no idea, but the ship doesn’t bother me in the same way it use to mostly because I’ve become too indfferent for most ships to even get a reaction from me anymore tbh

#this came out longer than expected #apologies if this somehow ends up in the mobile tag

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queermtl · 5 years

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An interview with Montréal’s Cuarta Baby

Queer life in Montréal stretches far outside the mapped limits of the Gay Village, and a group of LGBTQ+ creatives are shining a light on queer expression that crosses boundaries, scenes and cultures. Rafaella Alegre (Cuarta Baby) is a nightlife organizer, ballroom house mother, outspoken activist and community builder (including co-founding the Montréal Kiki Ballroom Alliance), whose welcoming events have brought a uniquely Latinx flavour to Montréal. During a busy Pride season, we spoke with her about life in the city, the growing ballroom community and her upcoming Gasolina! An Urban Kiki Ball at La Sala Rossa on August 31, 2019.

1. Can you tell me a little bit about your personal history in Montreal? When did you arrive and what first caught your eye about the city to prompt you to move here from Peru?

I first arrived the day after Christmas in 2013. I had visited Montreal for some weeks in 2011 after being denied a tourist visa to go to NYC, and when I realized people could be openly queer or a woman without getting harassed on the street – or at least, way less than in Lima – I was like, ‘I need to get out of my city.’ Lima is a very hostile environment and even though I love my city and country, I needed to leave for my mental health and general well-being. It was the only city I had ever visited outside Peru at the time.

2. What prompted the creation of your party CRZN? Did you notice a gap in the LGBTQ+ community that needed to be filled in regards to Latinx people in Montreal? What does the name CRZN represent?

Exactly that. I missed the queer parties back home. The intersection of latinidad and queerness is very important to me, which I didn’t realize until I felt the void when I moved out. I found that other Latinx immigrant friends felt the same way, and they wanted a place to be able to perrear (grind) where the gender combination or femininity/masculinity of the participants would not be policed. I found that I hated the music in all the queer parties that I had been in Montréal and since I had nightlife experience from being a DJ for years in Lima, I figured I should do something about that gap.

I really didn’t feel the urgency to solidify those plans until the tragedy that happened at Pulse. There was a need of a space to heal through Latin rhythms and that’s when I felt I had to rise to the occasion and this is when CRZN was born. Corazón means “heart” in Spanish, and I named it that way out of being passionate Latin queers and how we feel happiness or sadness intensely, especially these particular feelings of mourning. In Latin America, we have a history of using dancing and music to cope and heal and that’s something that it has in common with the queer community. I was told by someone one time that they thought the name meant “cruising” which I love as well – it’s a queer space after all, and I like to think it is also the bisexual party of Montréal. There’s something about reggaeton that is so sexual and makes you wanna hook up, so cruising also goes well with the brand and mood of this event.

3. Cuarta Baby is also a cornerstone of the Montreal ballroom community. When did you discover ballroom? What pulls you towards it? What are you hoping to do with your involvement as voguer, walker and commentator?

Thanks for calling me a cornerstone, that’s huge. I still see myself, as my name says, as a “baby” in the ballroom scene, because I am. My involvement started officially at the same time voguing classes started in Montréal, so more or less two and a half years ago. But, even in Peru I dreamt about being a part of it. I watched videos of Leiomy and tried to imitate the movements, but at that time, ballroom was not experiencing this boom of popularity so there was not even a single video on how to do a dip and the information to learn about the culture was very limited. It was only later that I was able to really delve into it completely. I really see Twysted Miyake-Mugler as one of my main mentors in this learning process – which never ends!

I felt very alone with my feelings surrounding femininity in Latin America, where there’s a very specific way of being a woman – feminine, heterosexual, catholic – that probably only other latinas who were raised and lived there can understand. I didn’t fit that archetype in several ways and femininity felt more like a prison. It was only through voguing that I discovered a way of being femme that was liberating and subversive. Voguing really helped me find myself and being comfortable in my own skin and for that I will be forever grateful. That’s why the involvement of Afrolatinx and Latinxs in the beginnings of ballroom culture in NYC makes so much sense to me – it seems like in a way it’s a direct response to how our culture sees gender roles and expression. As a walker and a mother – though I prefer mami because it makes me feel less old! – what I want to do with my own participation is honour that legacy and that’s the main value of my kiki house Benetton.

As a commentator, I want to blend Latin rhythms with original and authentic vogue beats while chanting in Spanish or Spanglish, to breach the gap between the main anglo-scene and the different newish scenes in Latin America such as Costa Rica, Mexico, Chile and hopefully, some day Peru! – something me and my collaborator DJ Minas have baptized as vogueton. It’s kinda like the lovechild between the two most influential songs in music history (in my biased opinion): Gasolina and The Ha! Dance. As a voguer... well, it’s no secret that I’m not a performance girl and Face is my category, so even though I do not compete, I do vogue for fun. It is an almost sacred ritual to me where I explore and relate to my femininity, and it’s the only time where I feel like I understand myself and can show myself through movement. It's so hard to explain our complex reality with words, so I think vogue does through movement what poetry does through words.

4. Where do you see Montreal’s ballroom community going in 2019?

I’m hoping it will get bigger and that queer and trans people of colour want to participate more and more. It does take commitment and years to get better at it, but it’s such an investment in art and talent that it’s worth it! We want to see the walker quality and quantity rise.

5. How has the city changed since your arrival (and specifically since your involvement in both CRZN and voguing)?

Well, the percentage of bisexual men has increased considerably! Just kidding – or am I? I think both myself and the city has changed in different ways. My stellium-in-virgo ass is super obsessed with doing work for the community and stepping forward when there’s no one else doing it. We have a well-established party that doesn’t turn any profit but we’re able to keep it going and curate a unique space and sound where people feel safe. I’ve also been part of founding the Montreal Kiki Ballroom Alliance, which I think even though it has started only very recently, is already starting to do amazing work towards uniting and bettering the kiki functions in the city. So, on my end, I will keep trying to provide the city with events where you can perrear and voguear, be it a party like CRZN or a kiki ball like “Gasolina! An Urban Ball” or the “Labour Weekend Kiki Workshops”.

6. How has life in the LGBTQ+ community in Montréal affected you?

The privileged first world life that a queer can live here has made me really appreciate my opportunity of migration, but at the same time it has made me appreciate my upbringing in the third world because it made me who I am and has given me a grasp on reality outside of the North American bubble. If I could choose, I’d be born where I was born again and again. Sometimes the “gay community” – it’s hard to call it LGBTQ+, because it is very much centered around the G – I don’t know if “affect” is the right word, but it bothers me and makes me want to create my own social circles and surroundings! Ballroom is an entirely different story – it centers (or it should at least) the black transwoman experience and we are all guests there, but it definitely finds a way to include everyone somehow.

7. Who in the city inspires you?

Ballroom-wise, I am always inspired by Brian Amazon Disney and Chivengi. The way they move alone is truly beautiful and a learning experience on its own. My Benetton children – who I recruited for a reason – like Naomi. The way she commands a room is unbelievable! My music soulmate and collaborator Minas, who I organize CRZN and have infinite projects with. I know you asked Montréal, but I it wouldn’t be right in my book to acknowledge who inspires me in Montréal ballroom without mentioning the Toronto scene as well, so Twysted, Tamar, Ceasar and N9ne are huge ballroom inspirations! But, no shade, most of my inspirations for all things art and creativity are in Peru, New York and Puerto Rico.

8. If you were to tell visitors just arriving three things about Montréal that you love, what would they be?

I’d say first of all come during the summer and not to toot my own horn – but totally – I’d come when there’s a CRZN. Also, my bed is one of the best tourist spots out there, just saying.

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