#and maybe kylux? or some other sw ships??? | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

gffa · 4 years

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Hi Lumi, I wanted to ask how it was like for you post-PT but pre-ST. As a PT fan (before the ST came along and loads of people now call it the worst trilogy of the bunch), it was just either OT or PT, and o' course everybody was all "OT is superior!" How was your experience in the early days? My first SW film was actually TPM! And I fell in love with the GFFA as shown in that movie, despite the clear missteps. It's kind of a dirty secret because people think I'm a lesser fan for liking TPM!

Hi! Oh, you’re sweet to ask this of me and you’re probably going to be disappointed with the answer because my Star Wars path has been kind of boring:--> I think I was vaguely aware of the OT, but I was so young it was hard to tell, beyond “I remember liking Princess Leia”--> The Phantom Menace was actually my first SW movie, too! I was HEAD OVER HEELS for that movie at the time, though, my memory of that era is really fuzzy because I was so young that all I remember is that I very strongly shipped Q/O and I think I read some of the JA books at the time?--> I drifted away from SW fandom probably about a year after TPM and I occasionally thought about checking out some Leia & Vader fic, but I never found any that appealed to me (I didn’t try very hard, mind) and so I kept wandering back off--> I wasn’t involved in SW fandom until The Force Awakens, when I came out a total sequels fan and that was my primary focus. Absurdly, the thing that got me to even go see TFA was that Darth Darth Binks theory on Reddit and I was desperate to know if it was true, it ate my brain for a couple of weeks.--> But then I got into ST fandom (I shipped Finn/Rey to a degree, but mostly I was a hardcore Kylux shipper back then) and wasn’t really involved in OT or PT era fandom, though, I was reasonably Jedi-critical. I did the whole “they were actually kind of a cult” and “they taught people to suppress their emotions” and “they had to end so a new, better source of the light could arise” bit. I was absolutely onboard that train. I even did the “everyone knows the prequels were objectively bad” thing, much to my chagrin.--> I wanted fix-it fic for the ST, because things were so sad! Luke and Leia and Han should be happy! I don’t find this new story satisfying, BRING ON THE FIX-IT FIC. Except you can’t really fix the OT 100% without fixing the PT. So, I started getting invested in time travel fics for the PT era, which led me to go, “hmm, maybe I should watch The Clone Wars” because everyone says it’s actually good.--> Three things happened over the span of about the first six episodes of TCW: - I realized, what, what? Obi-Wan is actually pretty kind and supportive towards Anakin??? But that’s not-- that’s not what I thought was going on with the prequels??? - OH SHIT OLD MARRIED COUPLE BANTER WITH OBI-WAN AND ANAKIN, NOOOOOOOO, I ANTI-SHIPPED THEM BEFORE, NOW THEY’RE AN OTP??? WHAT IS GOING ON HERE??? - Well, shit. I love this show. I love these characters. I’m going to go back and go over the prequels movies again. WAIT, THE PREQUEL MOVIES ARE MY FAVORITES NOW????--> That was me now. That was my life now. Die-hard Jedi stan, Obi-Wan Kenobi stan, Anakin stan, Obi-Wan&Anakin stan, prequels stan.Which is a long-winded way of saying: I never really had a chance to experience the post-PT/pre-TFA fandom in the way you probably did. My experiences with TPM fandom were very positive, people loved that movie and they were excited about the characters and sharing a crapload of fic, and I didn’t really experience much of the wider world beyond that fandom specifically.By the time I got into TCW fandom, it had been established enough that it had its fans and I could sink into that part of the fandom, as well as I wasn’t registering the “the PT is kind of actually really terrible” comments because I had internalized a lot of that and was only just beginning to shed it.I know it was tough for a lot of years and even today I still see a lot “yeah, but everyone knows the PT movies were really bad” like it’s objective fact, but I think the more SW explores more areas, the more people can just go, “Well, that part wasn’t for me, I’m going to stick to the part I like.” and it eases things up. I think it was probably hard for a lot of OT fans when the PT was in full swing, where all the new TV shows and comics and books were very PT-heavy, so there wasn’t really room to get away from it.Now, we each have more space to play in, if we don’t like that era over there. And I think that’s a thing that’s really, really valuable, that a lot of us need that kind of positive space to just have a good time in our fandom, instead of constantly being bombarded by people who actively dislike what we like. As well as we need to be able to get away from things we don’t like, lest we become the ones elbowing out others’ enjoyment of what they happen to like.My closest experience to yours is probably being a Jedi fan in this fandom, which, LOL, can be pretty difficult sometimes. I’ve mostly made my peace with it and found my groove for myself, but there were some really, really rough patches when I just wanted to be left the fuck alone or when I felt incredibly isolated. This isn’t me yelling at fandom, people have different opinions! But because of the way a handful of fans behaved and a lot of my fellow Jedi fans feeling pushed out of fandom/too scared to make posts, it was hard to navigate through my feelings on that.I imagine a lot of PT fans went through similar struggles with their feelings and how it felt like they were being elbowed out by people hating on this thing they loved, in such large numbers.But I’m glad that you seem to be in a better place. It sucks that we go through this, but fandom is fandom, they don’t owe us agreement with what we like, whether they’re perfectly nice about it or assholes about it, and we can make our own corners in fandom and find joy that way.Being in love with TPM is GREAT and anyone who says that you’re wrong for loving that movie is being a dick. It doesn’t have to be their favorite movie, hell, they can think it’s a terrible movie. But there’s room for more than one opinion and viewpoint, so JUST YELL LOUDER HOW MUCH YOU LOVE TPM AND THE GALAXY OF THE PREQUELS. It’ll make you feel better to pour out a bunch of love for this thing you like, too. ♥

#i should have a personal tag around here somewhere #Anonymous

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gefionne · 6 years

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What do you think about other pairings in SW? Which do you like/read/think about writing/totally hate?

Kylux you know I’m here for and it’s pretty much the only ship I’d write for (aside maybe from BenPoe), but here’s the breakdown:

Finnrey - Love it and think it is the purest ship and should be canon. I’ve never read for it and wouldn’t write probably, but I love the art and thinking about it.

Stormpilot - Also wonderful and sweet and I would also be here for it as canon. I don’t really follow the pairing, but I think it’s adorable.

JediStormPilot - Here for it!! OT3!!

JediPilot - That one 5-second introduction scene between Poe and Rey in TLJ totally had me raising my eyebrows. I’d totally read that.

DarkPilot - Ren/Poe. HERE FOR IT. (Basically I’m down for Poe being with everyone.)

BenPoe - The purer and sweeter form of Kylo/Poe, and I love it. I totally blame @gaylo-ben because their art for BenPoe is the best.

GingerPilot - Totally read some fics for this, and while it’s not something I’d write for, I love their dynamic.

DarkGingerPilot - Remember when I said I like Poe being with everyone? Yeah, I love this, too.

R*ylo - Do not speak it’s name; do not suggest posts to me, Tumblr; NTOP; hate it passionately.

Han/Leia - Classic and wonderful. Can’t not love it.

Han/Lando - I know after Solo I’m going to be shipping this so hard. I already think it’s amazing.

Han/Luke - Not really my bag, but it could be cute.

ObiKin - Probably the only thing I’d ship from the prequels.

Those are all the ones I can think of! :D

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drnucleus · 6 years

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2, 4 and 5 from the salty asks :)

Are there any popular fandom OTPs you only BroTP?For the SW fandom, definitely Finnrey. I love Daisy and John together but I also ship Stormpilot/Finnrose far more so much that I’ve had to become a multishipper for the first time in my life because I can’t decide. Had TLJ hinted more towards Finnrey becoming canon I could have been maybe okay with it. Also Finnlo. I get the appeal of Finn/Ben but idk just not my cup of tea but def no disrespect. Han and Luke I def only broTP because I’m an ardent Han/Leia shipper. Same goes for Hando. Other fandoms:OUAT: Captain Charming, Rumple/Regina (I reaaaalllllly hated that EQ/Gold romantic nonsense in season 6).Buffyverse: Willow/Xander/Buffy any combination of the three. Like they are my ride or die friendships in a piece of fiction. Also Cordelia/Angel because it felt so forced and then the nonsense with Connor happened. Firefly: one of my besties is gonna throw a shoe at me but Jayne and Kaylee, because I loved Kaylee and Simon more. Twilight (yes this is me coming out) I never shipped Jake/Bella or Jake/Leah Marvel: Stony, used to ship it but idk I like them as friends more now. Romanogers I definitely ship as besties. I always liked Clintasha or NatBucky better. Cherik as well.DC: Wonderbat mainly because Batcat is my otp. Also wonder/supes because hello Lois Lane. I also think Diana is too good for Bruce or Clark even though I love Martha’s boys. There are more for sure but this is all I can think of for now. Do you have a NoTP in your fandom? Are they a popular OTP?*OUAT fandom: SwanQueen. It just felt too toxic because they hated one another for so long and I can see that people wanted Henry’s two moms to get along and fall in love but I just didn’t get the chemistry at all. And you could tell the actresses were not exactly friends either. This was a very popular ship and their antis against Emma with Hook were very vocal and often just as toxic as anti Reylos (including yes doxxing, death threats and the like). Thankfully I met some cool SQers through being an EQ fan and that helped me gain perspective on the ship.Star Wars: Damerey. Mostly because of a small subset of shippers who are just mean to people who don’t ship it. Also because to me Poe is that dudebro frat boy who slowly gets woke over the course of the sequel trilogy and Rey in the new Poe Dameron comic finds him kind of insufferable. Oscar Isaac can have chemistry with a paper bag so I can’t really rule on chemistry here. Also Kylux, I don’t really find it healthy because I dislike full hate ships like that. They definitely hate each other in canon. Finnrey romantically has become a Notp because of the vocal toxic fans within it and because I prefer them as friends. But again no disrespect to my friends who do ship the above. Buffyverse: Spuffy just because in the show it was framed as being so unhealthy. First it was Spike’s obsession with her and then she was using that obsession to feel after resurrection. And then he tried to rape her. It started turning around in the final season once he got a soul but idk Spike as a hero never really stuck with me. DC: Joker/Harley because he’s tried to kill her how many times?Marvel: Nat/Bruce that felt sooooooo forced in AOU. Jean/Wolverine because I never really saw Wolverine settling down. And Jean def loves Scott more. Has fandom ever ruined a pairing for you?Basically nearly all of my NOTPs and a few of the brotps as romances are because either I don’t find it healthy or the fandom in that ship ruined it by their behavior towards other ships. The Spuffy/Bangel flame wars of yesteryear to today it’s been a wild ride. I’m always a ship and let ship kind of person which is why the small subset of fans in each of those notps have always ruined the fun of shipping for me. I recently had to unfollow a few of the bigger named Reylo blogs because of their behavior towards other people and other shippers. I’m a fandom granny basically because I’ve been through so many fandoms and seen so many ship wars and they are all the same. Small subsets of shippers in each group will be toxic pieces of shit and treat everyone as lower than themselves while denouncing the opposite ship for doing the same shit that they do all the time.

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feckyeswriting · 7 years

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Ask meme: Z X V U S R L I D (prove it) C

Send me asks about my fics / writing~!

Z - Major character death–do you ever write/read it? Is there a character whose death you can’t tolerate?

Oh man, I feel like people are SO AFRAID of major character death. We’re in this bubble of fic (or maybe it’s just gotten bigger since we’ve escaped FF.net’s awful publishing system and I was never part of Livejournal) where there’s a lack of purely plot-driven fic. Or, not even “purely plot driven” but even just ship-fic that has a plot beyond THEY FALL IN LOVE IN XYZ SCENARIO. So there’s just not a lot that I find where there’s even a chance FOR anyone to die, if that makes sense?

But I would love to write it. I have a plan for one fic where that may happen. It’s tough though. You need the right buildup otherwise it’s just bleh. My only fic so far with that warning is “Catch and Release” and it wasn’t even Kylo or Rey who died, so I don’t consider myself having truly executed a major character death fic that could wreck hearts.

X - A character you enjoy making suffer.

I would like to say all of them because it’s TRUE. I love making everyone suffer, even if it’s just through an awkward encounter at the mall. So far I’ve whumped the most on Rey just because I could? And it kinda fits with her backstory and putting her into situations with the FO.

V - A secondary (or underrated) character you want to see more of in fic?

*slams fists on keyboard* …I don’t actually have anyone that I can think of rn where I feel adamant about this?

In Divergent fic there’s a lot of putting the secondary characters into really rigid roles. Will is The Boyfriend to Christina who just treats Tris like a dress-up doll. Tori gives advice and isn’t as badass as VRoth tried to make her (and failed a bit) in Insurgent. Lauren is either a New Bestie for Tris or her romantic rival.

So I guess just… I want people to break them out of those boxes? Use other characters in those roles (make OCs that aren’t just stand-ins for yourself to romance the character of interest) and give the real secondary characters a purpose that helps the plot in another way.

U - A pairing you might like to write for, but haven’t tried yet.

I need to fill a Reysma prompt for TA hahaha. That should be fun. I also kind of want to go back to The Hollows (an awesome book series which I need to read the last two books and haven’t because dammit I hate the end OTP) and write some Ral because dammit they should have had a chance.

S - Any fandom tropes you can’t resist?

BEDSHARING. Who can resist? I can’t. It’s universal.

I also can’t resist “retelling the beginning of Divergent” because I just want it to be done for MY SHIPPPPP.

R - Are there any writers (fanfic or otherwise) you consider an influence?

Hmm. I think in my personal writing I’ve been fairly influenced by Kim Harrison and Jim Butcher. I madly respect @tamorapierce for her fantastically built worlds. I’ve kind of lost respect for some of the fanfic authors that I used to talk about so that list is currently empty. There are some like… “classic” fic authors in the A:TLA fandom that I respect and love, but I don’t know their names anymore bc they don’t write. I also had drawn inspiration from the author of “Dark Times” in the SW fandom (treenasthal or something similar) but they update even less frequently than I do so I haven’t re-read anything of theirs in about 2 years now.

L - What’s the weirdest AU you’ve ever come up with?

That I’ve come up with personally? Oh god. “Sunburn” was hilarious but I had gotten the inspiration from TA. “Sharpest Lives” is my crackiest AU, so that certainly could count. Within my Divergent fics, I guess the whole Colorfest idea is pretty weird and probably the farthest stretch for being a viable event in the canon universe. I tend to not write totally weird AUs.

OH I KNOW ACTUALLY. I haven’t written an actual fic for it, but I had answered an ask from @lucidlucy with a tentacle porn style AU that I turned into “the hunt for the wild space whale” Kylux/reylux concept. I would love to actually write it but ugh. Where is the TIME?

I - Do you have a guilty pleasure in fic (reading or writing)?

There are certain interests that I have when reading lmao. Some are not for polite company so I’ll keep those to myself ;DI do SO adore a well done “good guy is on the bad side” fic. Dark!Rey fics are my fave. Or just any sort of “darkest timeline” sort of feel like how I’m doing Ash and Torment. There’s something about that kind of fic that’s really interesting to me? Probably because we all KNOW what it’s supposed to be like and just want to see how things will ever get closer to that sort of feel.

D - Is there a song or playlist associated with Prove It?

Copied from the other ask

There is! I’m not fancy enough to bother with 8 tracks or actually make the playlist flow, but I have a Google Play playlist with songs that I put on when I’m writing almost anything Eris. Usually shuffled. Here’s the link and I can make a fancy post about the songs for the 98% of the world who doesn’t pay for monthly GPlay service when I’m back home with a mouse :3

C - What character do you identify with most?

I know this is going to sound SO DUMB but I love Eric. My Eric, that is. Taking his aggressive side and toning it down to a realistic character (instead of a caricature of a villain). Because I’m just… I’m that irked? And annoyed? All the time. And if I had earned the role of Leader in a post-apocalyptic era, I too would make my nemesis’ twerp kids fight to blackout like he did with me in our training days. I’m just not a people person unless I KNOW those people and ugh. Yeah.

I’m not industrious enough to be Rey. I like the concept of people but I don’t know if I could be selfless like canon!Tris to die for a whole city.

SO MANY QUESTIONS I LOVE IT MOAR MOARRR

#askbox distractions #sarah answers #cssardonic #sarah replies

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lj-writes · 7 years

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@illiterallylondon The sheer length of our thread was verging on a health and safety violation, so if you don’t mind I’ll start a new one and make use of the cut tag. I will also attempt to categorize and summarize the issues, for any poor soul following along at home.

As I understand, the issues are as below:

1. Whether Finn could be interpreted to be a match for Kylo Ren according to your shipping pattern

2. Whether it is unfair to Kylux fans to argue that the popularity of Kylux is motivated in part by subconscious racism

3. Whether Hux is, in fact, more popular than Finn and Poe

4. Whether Hana Yori Dango proves the popularity of your stated shipping pattern unaffected by race

5. Whether you are a sea lion who leeches off others’ time and energy, then claims moral victory when others won’t give it to you

6. Miscellaneous

I will proceed in this numbered order, rearranging the points and statements as necessary.

1. Whether Finn could be interpreted to be a match for Kylo Ren according to your shipping pattern

So you insist, over and over again, that your interpretation of the characters is the only valid one and your interpretation of why Finn can’t be part of a megaship with Kylo Ren (or whomever) must hold true. You kept gerrymandering the hell out of your so-called shipping pattern, saying the characters can’t be moral opposites, can’t want to kill each other etc.

Except you admit that shipping patterns are malleable and not that rigid and furthermore don’t hold across fandoms, see Point 2 below:

2. Whether it is unfair to Kylux fans to argue that the popularity of Kylux is motivated in part by subconscious racism

“Yet you imply that Kylux is only popular due to racism by saying that if the shipping pattern was a major factor in the pairing’s popularity then Finnlo would be a ship, thus people only like Kylux because they like white people. Which, yes, is saying that race overrides characterization.”

You are completely misunderstanding what I was trying to do there. What I’m getting at is that your “shipping pattern” is bunk. You acknowledged yourself that this is malleable and based on fandom thinking by saying in regards to the shipping pattern applying to Drarry (emphasis added), “regardless of how in-character that may be.”

Also you contradicted yourself when you said near the end of your post:

‘I said in my original paragraph that your argument is that fans of Kylux are moved “primarily” by racism. And did not mention it being the “only factor” anywhere. At. All.’

You... literally said “[I] imply that Kylux is only popular due to racism.” So you did, indeed paint my argument as race being the only factor of Kylux’s popularity? LOL.

To address your constant assertion that I’m saying I’m saying Kylux is only popular due to racism (with ridiculous claims that characters of color should have no fans at all if this were true), let me try to explain it this way:

Let’s say a show has two characters, A and B, and ten fans. There are a number of reasons why any given fan might like A or B. It could be characterization, gender, their plot, background, all these are factors to different degrees. If race is a factor, it would--together with other factors--weight preference one way or the other. So if A is white and B is Black, seven fans might like A while three like B. If A is Black and B is white, four fans might like A while six fans like B. Under this scenario there are three fans who would have liked B better regardless of race, but for the fandom as a whole race still played a role in who was more popular. It doesn’t have to be a primary or exclusive factor, as you kept trying to paint as my argument, it can still be a decisive factor without being either.

That’s all I was saying from the start, that race affects fandom preferences as a whole. I’m not talking about individuals, but in the aggregate there are discernible patterns which you have acknowledged. If you agree, as you claim, that race can affect fandom preferences and is a factor, then we’re in agreement. There’s nothing to discuss and you caused us both to waste a whole lot of time and words over nothing. Happy?

“…Again, I’m forced to repeat myself, but Kylux shippers are people. Calling out racism in fandom is calling out the shippers who participate in said fandom. Unless you’re saying that shippers aren’t people.”

I “called them out” as being affected by subconscious racism. The exiestence of which you acknowledged. The only sense in which I called anyone racist (words that you put in my mouth, by the way) is in the sense that they are affected by racism in their fannish preferences, which is a systematic issue and not a matter of personal morality. The only sense in which you could possibly feel judged by this assertion is by making these systematic issues about yourself, which is exactly what you are doing.

Put another way, if you think subconscious racism in fandom exists but it’s unfair to say fandom racism has any meaningful effects (because they affect people, obviously, and that according to you is calling them racist), what would be a good way to talk about fandom racism? Is there a way to talk about fandom racism that you think doesn’t call people out or judge them for being racist?

Also notice the giant dose of hypocrisy in this:

“Thanks, again not a part of some of these fandoms but I’m taking your word for it [that conflicting explanations are given for CoCs’ comparative lack of popularity].”

So like, you think it’s sooooo unfair for me to supposedly call Kylux shippers racist, but it’s okay to call Rick/Darryl shippers or Steve/Bucky shippers racist? Because I’m actually applying the exact same logic to all these ships, that their popularity, and the lack of popularity of characters of color ships, are driven in large part by subconscious racism. Yet you’ll take my word for it when it comes to fandoms you don’t know. Why do you think it’s okay to call a bunch of people you don’t know racist?

Also, if you think this:

“Not personally a part of the MCU fandom (I tend to strongly dislike superhero movies) so I can’t speak to this point.“

is the same thing as this:

“I’m taking your word for it and accepting that as someone who is a part of the fandom”

...then you really need to update your communication skills. Like seriously.

3. Whether Hux is, in fact, more popular than Finn and Poe

“Hux does not surpass the hero in popularity in the majority of fandom, just as Boba Fett and Tarkin and TR-8R do not. However in more niche communities (Kylux AO3 fandom, Boba Fett/Tarkin fansites and certain SW fansites) they surpass the heroes in popularity.“

This is an unwarranted change of subject. From the very first post I was talking about what one might call “deep” fandom--the part of fandom that writes fanfics and ships characters. This is by no means the majority of the moviegoing audience, so your trying to shift the discussion to the larger casual fandom is a derailment.

4. Whether Hana Yori Dango proves the popularity of your stated shipping pattern unaffected by race (+ Buffy fandom)

“So let me get this straight: you previously argue that people of color can be racist (which I agree with btw), then go on to imply that the fans of BOF are Asian-American therefore racism likely isn’t a factor…?“

That is not what I argued at all, please read again. What I said was, emphasis added:

“Actually race still does affect fans [then going on to cite the disproportionalely Asian-American viewership of K-Dramas]“

This was in response to your statement that “I explicitly cited HYD as an example for race not affecting fans of a series.”

So like... I’m not sure how you got from here to there, but maybe calm down and stop jumping to conclusions?

Also, the part where I said “Also telling fans that they have nothing to complain about because Finn and Poe still have followings” was in response to this part:

“Kylo and Hux are more popular. It doesn’t mean Finn and Poe are unpopular within the AO3/Tumblr fandom at all. There’s nothing lacking in their characters, they just don’t fit the mold.“

Since my entire OP was about comparative popularity, not about Finn and Poe having some sort of following, this misses the point and comes across as disingenuous. Also, as discussed above, your whole “mold” argument is bunk.

“Buffy is more popular than Spike but Kylo is also more popular than Hux.”

Um... false comparison because Kylo’s not the hero, in case you haven’t noticed.

“My point in HYD is that. Again. The ship is non-white and falls into the shipping pattern, and is popular. Indicating that race didn’t bother HYD fans,”

Okay, so you’re moving the goalposts again and again here. I specifically talked about popularity comparisons between characters of different races in the same show, but you’re trying to drag the discussion to a monoracial show. Also, as I have said and you have accepted, this same shipping pattern does not hold in multiracial shows such as the MCU and The Walking Dead.

Besides, as I have already said, race (race, not racism), does in fact affect the viewership of K-Dramas. So in addition to being a derail your basic premise fails.

“The American version would’ve been much more popular if all people cared about was race and not characters that fall into a pattern of interest.”

I. Never. Said. All. People. Cared. About. Was. Race. Stop putting fucking words in my mouth, and if you want to rehash this point again please read my “A and B” example above. Carefully. Also you contradicted yourself yet again when you claimed you never claimed that I said race was the only factor.

I specifically made intra-show comparisons between characters in the same show because there are too many factors that affect the comparative popularity between shows. The American version of HYD failed because it sucked. I never said a show’s quality doesn’t matter and that race overcomes all other factors. Again, stop derailing and stop putting words in my mouth.

I already addressed your point about the YouTube video. Don’t try to waste my time more than you already have.

“To start with, I didn’t say that younger girls don’t write fic, just that most HYD fans who are teens (especially having a shitload of content for their OTP) aren’t as likely to produce content for said OTP. Which makes sense seeing as there is a disproportionate amount of fans vs the amount of fics in the HYD FFN archive.”

How do you know it’s disproportionate? This goes back to my point about casual fandom and deep fandom. Deep fandom is only a tiny, tiny drop in the sea of casual fandom. Only a small portion of HYD fans will write fic, but the same is true of any show. So your attempt to extrapolate some vast hidden fan base for HYD out of proportion to the number of fanfics doesn’t work, really. Especially since the original topic in the first place is deep fandom, not casual fandom, so chalk this up as yet another derail.

Also your points about K-drama and FanFiction.Net demographics are either hilariously deceptive or hilariously ignorant, I can’t decide which?

“Because compared to the other numbers in that study the 16-20 group made up the majority of K-Drama viewers.“

That’s... that’s not what a majority means. A little over one-third of K-Drama viewers are in the 16-20 group, which contradicts your assertion that “most of the HYD fans are teenaged girls.”

“Also in pointing out that FFN tends to have younger writers kind of confirmed my argument that searching for HYD fic in AO3 would be taking an inaccurate sampling since most teen writers use FFN.”

Um, “most FFN writers are teens” is not the same thing as “most teen writers use FFN.” Just pointing that out.

“The people who wrote fic for HYD were bound to post it on FFN, but most of the HYD fandom really couldn’t be bothered to write fic for it. Otherwise we’d have much more than 1k fics in the FFN archive right now.“

What... you’re not even making sense anymore... do you notice the circular reasoning? You’re starting with an assumption (FFN underrepresents HYD’s popularity) that is also the conclusion (HYD is a lot bigger than the number of FFN fics would indicate). Holy shit, this is such a mess. It’s like a car accident I can’t look away from.

“I gave you evidence which you responded to once and never mentioned again. How do you explain the millions of views on videos like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVxQ_g2NL6g) otherwise? If we’re taking the amount of fic to equate to the amount of fans (about 1k) then where are these millions of English-speaking people coming from?”

As I said above, only a small proportion of fans of any work actually write fanfic for it (”deep fandom”). This is true of HYD but it’s also true of any fandom. You have failed to show, except with your hilarious circular argument above, that the number of HYD fics is disproportionately small in proportion to its actual fan base. Of course the number of fics is smaller than the number of fans, because it always is.

5. Whether you are a sealion who leeches off others’ time and energy, then claims moral victory when others won’t give it to you

“I literally said that if antis really cared about their cause that much they’d be ‘more open’ to conversation. Not ‘they’d be open to spending enormous amounts of time’ debating with me.”

This is disingenuous, coming from someone who makes it impossible to carry on a conversation that doesn’t take enormous amounts of time and energy. For instance, my OP was 175 words long. Your reply was more than twice as long at 448 words, and you derailed and deflected and changed the subject and strawmanned in every single post until the thread grew into a monstrosity that I’m afraid to even do a word count for, mostly because I’d hate myself for how much time I wasted with you. I mean, I’ve already spent four hours after finishing a major project replying to your ridiculous points.

“If you think productive activism is screaming at someone who wants to talk then blocking them off without letting them speak, I’m sorry, but you’re not being productive.”

What I’m doing isn’t productive, either, talking to someone who debates either as dishonestly or badly (I don’t even know which, I think it’s the former driving the latter) as you. This is not being open to conversation.

“I have been very open to discussion and have actually had my opinions completely changed and renewed…I’d consider myself at least relatively open-minded, yeah.”

Open to discussion... by constantly putting words in my mouth. (And not even keeping your story safe on which words you’re putting, lmao.)

Open to discussion... by making a discussion that I made clear was not about you, about you.

Open to discussion... by constantly changing the subject.

Open to discussion... by using terrible math and terrible logic.

Sure, Jan.

“What am I doing now? Ignoring all your comments and not reading them?“

The part about “educating yourself” completely flew over your head, right? To be clear, “educating yourself” does not mean “demand that others educate you.” The subject of the verb “educate” is different in these two clauses, just so you know.

“So I’m meant to listen to the ‘grievances of fans of color’ but also shouldn’t ask fans of color to spend time talking to me. Gotcha.”

Are you really this amazingly literal-minded or are you being purposefully obtuse? Googling “fandom racism” is a thing? Reading the many, many articles by fans of color about fandom trends and fandom experiences is also a thing?

Going on to people’s posts and shoving your unwanted, stale opinions on them is not listening. Opening with “actually, this is why you’re wrong (and also how dare you call me racist)” is not listening.

“If you don’t think there’s anything wrong with pretending to be an activist so you can jump on a bandwagon of sending people hateful messages, then I really don’t know what to say.“

All it takes is searching “harassment” on my blog to learn where I stand on that sort of thing, but nice try painting me as something I’m not. :)

“So if I really was a sealion, I would have demanded that you respond to me in what was meant to be my final response by calling you a coward or something“

Did you read the meme originator comic? Being a sea lion isn’t limited to calling people cowards, it’s about implying that those who don’t respond are unable to defend their points or are in some way lacking--which is exactly what you did by saying antis would be more open to a conversation with you if they “truly wanted to change the situation, or help.” I.e. by not answering your points, they’re not being open to conversation, hence not changing or helping anything. People who didn’t want to talk to you (not talking about harassment, just quitting out of frustration) didn’t bother because, again, it’s nothing we haven’t heard before and you've shown yourself to be a dishonest debater. Also because they know when to quit, unlike me.

“If I really was after validation or whatever, I’d be using tags. You know, so like-minded Kylux shippers could find my argument and agree with me.”

Goalpost moving, after you’ve had it explained to you very clearly what claiming moral victory is. Not that I expect any better from you at this point.

6. Miscellaneous

“Also, Star Wars isn’t groundbreaking storytelling? Are you kidding me?”

So again we run into the problem of using words in different senses. What I meant is that there’s nothing terribly new about the characters or storytelling, directly in response to your assertion that Finn and Poe don’t fit “the mold.” You seem to have taken it in the sense that it’s not popular or good, which... isn’t the meaning of groundbreaking? But I see now that you mean the mold as in the mold of AO3 shipping, so whatever.

“Hilariously enough I actually disagree with the Hux fans (which you probably assumed I’d side with), although I do think TFO’s attack on Hosnian Prime is pretty comparable to America bombing Hiroshima.”

I didn’t assume, I only showed what I sometimes do on this blog. Thanks for assuming what I assumed, though? And no, it’s not comparable. Like, I believe the bombing of Hiroshima was a war crime, but it was not the deliberate extermination of an entire population without warning or declaration of war. Monstrous as Hiroshima was, Hosnian Prime is incomparably more monstrous.

#hooooooly shit #wtf am i doing #this rabbit hole goes deep indeed #it's a hilarious ride though #fandom racism #troll in the dungeon #illiterallylondon

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mini-mantis-blog · 7 years

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I love your latest Kylux drawing! Do you have other SW ships besides them? :)

Aww thank you! I’m glad you like :D I’ve drawn a bit of kyluxma and phaslo, and gingerpilot (it’s all in the art tag in case you’re interested), but not gonna lie I mostly get kylux ideas. And I’ve been wanting to draw some phux since forever but never got around to do it hah :“’) maybe one day. Thanks for asking!

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bedcorpse · 5 years

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i’m a smidgen..... pissed. disturbed? upset rn.

because i’m tired of liking things and them not being fun for me. i’m tired of endless arguments with both sides trying to have the moral high ground, when in reality, while one side is (imho) worse than the other, the other side isn’t doing too hot either.

reylos are loud, obnoxious, insist their ship is canon when it’s not, and generally overreact to everything. they say that finnreys are the REAL racists because they tend to overlook rose, but in the same breath theorize about rose dying and it bringing rey closer to kylo ren. they act like finnreys are going to prison shiv them in the artist alleys at conventions. i saw somebody actually try to report finnrey shippers to swcc security for saying they were... going to the shipping (read: reylo) panel. not saying they were gonna show up and beat someone up, not saying they were going to get violent. at worst, it was “crashing” an OPEN PANEL and starting Discourse. which... i hate to say it... but don’t host a panel about one of the biggest sources of sw drama since the disney buyout and not expect drama.

finnreys, on the other hand, are being kind of fucking capricious jerks about it all. not saying it hasn’t been warranted (to an extent) or spurred on by the things reylos have done, but it’s kind of too much and it’s not a good look. they do come across as “keyboard woke” because they try to turn everything into a race issue, when in reality, i’d say that the individual reylo in question is only an actual, worth-getting-mad-about racist like 25% of the time. they do tend to forget about rose, which, rose is not a great character tbh, but it does look bad when someone claims to be sticking up for poc but leaves out a major character who is a woc. not only that, but, again, some people are taking this way too seriously. i saw someone (a reylo, granted) saying they saw a GUN THREAT towards the shipping panel on twitter. now, they provided no screenshots or evidence, so i don’t really buy it considering the average reylo’s massive victim complex, but if that’s true, HOLY FUCK NO. NO NO NO NO NO. like, “crashing” the panel is already kind of a bad look and gives the reylos slightly more credence to their “uwu i’m just bullied by the mean ol’ antis!” argument, but threatening actual violence???? JESUS CHRIST NO. if it’s true, i hope it was just a really off color joke, but suffice to say, REALLY BAD LOOK.

i hate reylo. i hate reylos. it’s shitty regressive writing if it were to become canon and reylos are over-the-top and hard to avoid. but finnreys don’t really look much better on paper, and more and more i’m beginning to see the argument for rey/poe shippers despite them having one (1) dialogue exchange at this point in the series.

i want to not give a shit about this. i want to just ignore it and let people ship what they want. if it was just me not liking a ship, i could ignore it. i do that all the time (see: finnrose and to a lesser extent kylux). but this is genuinely something that upsets me even when i try to ignore it because both sides are being assholes. obviously i agree with the finnreys more, but if they’re really making violent threats about this, then they’re no more in the right than people romanticizing an abusive relationship. (which, by the by, i’m not against villain/protagonist ships, or redemption arcs. but reylo and kylo ren as a character are not poised to have a healthy or nuanced exploration of that, at least not in canon.)

i’ve made jokes about someone getting arrested or leaving in a stretcher from the panel, and i waffle back and forth between finding it cringe and morbidly amusing to writing a fucking essay of a tumblr post about it. but it’s all boiling up to the surface and it’s making me really really afraid for like, actual human safety, regardless of who i agree with. maybe this is what the fandom needs to get it out of their system. i just miss when this was fun for me, and conversations about shipping and characters didn’t devolve into unwarranted shouting matches.

also: unrelated and tacked on at the end because i couldn’t figure out where to put it in the post itself, but the podcast hosting the panel is condescending and annoying as fuck, but that’s just an onion and i have them muted on twitter anyways 🤷🏻‍♀️

#emma shut up #long post #sw discourse #for ppls tag systems

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gffa · 6 years

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I know you love the sequels (you've said it before) but since you dont talk about it nearly as much as you do the prequles, do you mind me asking generally what you think about the sequels? Like, what you think of the characters and the ships, whether you ship anything or maybe everything, etc. Love to hear your (positive as always ofc youre great) thoughts on it and your love for sw! ❤

Hi! Thank you for such a sweet message! I’m definitely into some parts of Star Wars more than others, but I don’t think there’s any era that I’ve outright hated, even if I’ve had my troubles with them.I’m middling-to-frequently-pleased about the sequels! They’re not really ever going to be the Star Wars of my heart, but I like them well enough! Generally, I find that I like them more and more once the extended canon (novels, games, comics, etc.) starts coming out, even while the movies themselves are fairly low on my list of “favorite SW stuff”. I do have a lot of issues with the writing not being that well-thought out at times (if we’re meant to see Holdo as a good leader, she should have realized the mutiny that was stirring under her watch, the lack of explanation about what the FO was in TFA, etc.), but my overall feelings towards the sequels are positive!For me, it comes down to: I have spent a lot of time talking about TFA and TLJ, I’ve written a lot of meta, I’ve consumed a lot of the surrounding media, I’ve had a lot of thoughts and feelings about it! But I don’t feel the urge to rewatch/reread much of it. I wrote probably 15k worth of meta about TLJ overall, but I feel no urge to go pick the movie up again and see it another time, despite how thoroughly I combed through it, the novelizations, and the comic adaptations of it. I don’t feel a driving need to seek out more understanding about the finer details of how things work, because I don’t feel that there necessarily is enough of that thought being put into it yet.In contrast, I am ALWAYS ready to go rewatch the PT and OT movies and TCW. I’m always picking up new things in the movies/tv shows themselves or just having more feelings about them! Part of this is that those characters are my jam, but part of it is also that I think George’s overall story creation was more engaging for me, it kept me coming back to re-comb the stuff he was directly involved with, instead of always needing new material to keep my interest.This isn’t to say that I don’t love the sequels, because I very much do! These characters are wonderful, getting to see any kind of progression (even if it’s not enough yet, I will still celebrate the steps forward we’re taking) is so meaningful to me, and I very much like a lot of the surrounding novels and games and the world they’re building. It’s just not quite as solid-feeling to me as George’s was–though, I like to think that will change with time. Already, TFA was made a ton better for me through the extended canon explaining what the First Order was. Now, if we had any idea how the rest of the galaxy was dealing with the First Order (are they still outsiders coming in to take over? have they already done that? like, I don’t really get the relationship they have to the rest of the galaxy), I’d be more onboard! If there was a stronger sense of the movies being connected to the established GFFA (see: my rant on the lack of pretty much any recognizable aliens in TLJ the movie), I’d probably feel less like they were disconnected.I definitely feel the crunch of how they can’t really do much with backstories and the spaces around the ST movies, because they’re presumably waiting for IX to finish so they don’t contradict anything. Once we can actually know the arc of the characters’ lives (like what happened after Ben killed the Jedi apprentices and burned down the Temple? just how much was Snoke an influence in his life/when did that start? what’s Finn’s origin story or his point of view on escaping the FO? etc.) I’ll probably come around more!Rey is my favorite (I AM SUCH A JEDI NERD ♥), I want sooooo much of her interacting with pretty much EVERYONE, but especially her Jedi lineage!! I also dearly love Finn and Rose as well, I’m hoping that they get further expanded stories once IX is out and they can really do more with their pasts and their futures, too! I like Kylo well enough, I especially like his relationships with Luke and Leia (my faves from the OT!), and I once upon a time shipped Kylux and probably still vaguely do. (I like my snarling villain ships sometimes. XD) I ship Finn/Rey kind of a lot, but in a way that I’m content with whatever happens in canon happens. I could be convinced to ship Rey/Rose and Leia/Holdo if someone did the heavy lifting for me in fic! I’m fine with all the other ships, I hope people are having a good time with them, but they haven’t sparked an intense interest in me yet personally.After that, I’m probably most interested in the Rebels crew, I really came to care about them! I ship Kanan/Hera as a diehard OTP but I’m content to be casual about it, Zeb/Kallus is one I get a hankering for every so often and deeply love, I’m super into Sabine/Ketsu but they’re such a quiet ship. Ultimately, though, my heart is with Kanan’s path to finding his way back to the Jedi path and Ezra coming into his own and the difficult choices he faced and the found family aspect.I really loved Rogue One (I shipped Baze/Chirrut and Cassian/Jyn) but without deeper history on the characters (TELL ME ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A GUARDIAN OF THE WHILLS, LUCASFILM???) or a stronger connection to the rest of the GFFA, I’m content to just remember how much I enjoyed it from afar.I loved Solo, it’s a movie that I don’t have a lot of deep investment in (maybe that will change with the novelization? those often do a lot for me) but I absolutely could watch it again! I definitely shipped Han/Qi’ra for what it was, but they weren’t meant to be. I like Han/Lando as a banter-filled ship along the way! But Han/Leia is still an unbreakable ship for me. I REALLY loved the new characters (Qi’ra and Enfys Nest especially) and all the tie-ins to the rest of the GFFA, oh MAN I want to know about Lando on Felucia or whatever happened with Beckett and Aurra Sing! But I’m fairly low-key about that desire for more.TL;DR: I don’t feel like the sequels have done as much to establish themselves and a fair chunk of what they did do felt like throwing the OT characters under the bus to promote their new characters (I have come around to how Star Wars is cyclical in nature, so the rise of the FO is part of the storytelling structure of SW, as well as Luke’s characterization in TLJ is built A LOT on the parts of the OT that we tend to forget about, like his impatience and anger, but there’s still a lingering bitter taste about how hard the OT worked for their happy ending and the only got to enjoy it for, what? 20 years? how I never got to see Mark Hamill as my Badass And Centered Jedi Master for more than just a couple of minutes) so they have an uphill battle with me, but that doesn’t meant they’re not doing it and that I will grow more invested as more and more connective tissue is put out in novels and comics and games. There are many things I love about them, I’m glad to see fans who are so passionate about the things they love with them, a lot of the books and comics and games have been great, and I love the characters themselves!

#meta #i should have a personal tag around here somewhere #anonymous #and maybe a little #sequels discourse

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