#but that realistically it'd end up focused on the Batfam just as much as it'd be focused on Bruce and Joker

[distort-opia]

if batman and joker were to enter into a relationship, would it be clandestine? do you think either of them would want to tell others about it? and how would batman's family react if they found out?

If they were to enter a relationship... yes, I do think it would be hidden. Not that Joker would care much about that, but Bruce certainly would. And I don't think it would matter to Joker that much -- because he's possessive, and being the only one to know, sneaking around while everyone thinks Batman hates Joker, would excite him. Not to mention the fragility of things. Joker would know that pushing Bruce for anything like coming out in public would send him running instantly, and he wouldn't want to jeopardize what they had. Part of him would have the fun of his life rejoicing in people's shock and disbelief if they did find out, but it wouldn't be enough for him to risk the relationship.

As to Bruce... well. Getting into an actual honest-to-God relationship with Joker would take some very extreme circumstances (like the ones I wrote about in my fic, repetitio est mater studiorum). I don't think this in itself happening is OOC, because Bruce is quite selfish -- he's hurt members of the Family with many other choices in the past. But it would take some time and some more extreme circumstances for Bruce to want to tell them about Joker. This is something that might drive the Family away for good, and it's something he'd feel so much guilt and self-hatred over. Because, put very simply, the message a relationship with Joker sends to the Family is 'You matter less to me than the literal serial killer who harmed and killed you'.

But. I do think there’s more than one way this could go down, and I have many thoughts about it. Thoughts that got long, so for the health of everyone’s dash, here’s a cut.

So, of course the Family wouldn't react well, if they found out. Pretty sure Jason would try to murder Bruce’s ass (and who can blame him, tbh). Barbara would be this close to joining him, and the rest... I do think Dick, Tim and Damian could potentially come around, with enough time and explanations and justifications on Bruce's side (I’m doing it to reform him and to stop him from killing people! It’s all for Gotham’s sake!). But in the end, it would inevitably fracture the Family, and I don't even know if Bruce would put in the effort to make them understand or fix it. He might think he deserves to be shunned, so he'd act in ways that would cause the rift between him and the Family to widen, instead of giving them chances to understand and forgive. On top of that, the whole thing would make him angry and resentful towards Joker, so it might come out and screw things up on that end, too.

Which is why I personally think the only way to minimize damages and have the Family... reconcile with the idea somehow, is for Joker to make the effort, not Bruce. The fallout might be the worst it could be, but it also has the biggest potential to eventually convince them. Because, once the anger and the betrayal would begin to cool off... Bruce has had romantic relationships with villains and canonical murderers before. Hell, Damian's mother has killed plenty of people, with her sending a clone of him to kill her own son being (regrettably) a thing that's happened in canon; and Selina is definitely not a poster child for the no-killing rule either (her shooting Black Mask point blank is a pre-Flashpoint story that even got referenced in her run and is now canon, if I'm remembering right). The more recent character of Ghostmaker is an excellent example too. Just within the arc he first appears in, he kills dozens of people, and yet Bruce good-naturedly asks him to stay in Gotham at the end, only telling him not to kill again (Khoa is Bruce’s ex, you cannot convince me otherwise). And... well, the complicated relationship Bruce has with Jason, who has killed people, shows things aren't black-and-white at all, in this area. More objectively, the issue of Bruce being with Joker comes down to what Joker has personally done to members of the Family, it doesn’t come down to morality. Bruce has canonically proven he can work/be with someone who's killed people if they just promise to stop killing again, and the Family hasn't taken any issue with that. Or they've at least come to terms with it successfully. With Joker, the problem is the scale of his monstrosity and what he's done to people Bruce cares about.

But thing is, Jason and Barbara are acquainted with how insane Bruce is about Joker already. To an extent, all of the Family knows Bruce has a kind of weird relationship with Joker -- they just really like not to think about it. Barbara, for instance, canonically knows Bruce and Joker laughed in the rain at the end of TKJ, so I'm pretty sure everyone else does too. Not to mention all the times she asks Bruce to just let Joker die, but Bruce refuses. And Jason has had his freaking throat slashed because Bruce could not abide the thought of Joker dying. So... you know. I do feel that a relationship with Joker wouldn't blindside them; it would simply hurt like an absolute motherfucker, because it would be confirmation that Bruce cares less about them than him. Something Joker's been saying for a long time, and something he specifically drilled into their heads in Death of the Family.

But DotF is the reason why I think that, in the context of a genuine relationship, Joker should be the one to break it to them. Joker is the only one who can undo or mitigate the inevitable belief that they don’t matter to Bruce, because of the choice he’s made; not Bruce, who’s literally the problem. And not in the sense that Joker would apologize for what he's done to the Family and to innocents in general, because I very much doubt they'd believe him, and because it would not be honest. While in the moment and for some time after, they’ll all want to beat Joker to death, the fact Joker himself is making the effort to help Bruce will come into play eventually -- and this, in the end, is what could end up mattering enough. The relationship wouldn’t just come across as Bruce taking all of Joker’s shit to stop him from killing people, making Joker out as some kind of monster on a leash with zero agency in the matter. This way, it’d become obvious to everyone involved that Joker is an active part in the relationship, and a part who does genuinely love Bruce. And is willing to compromise with the Family enough to keep being with him, which would in turn send the message that Bruce needs the Family to understand so much it’s making the freaking Joker put in an effort. Oh, Joker would certainly be a manipulative piece of shit about it, and his genuine motivation would be a mix of selfishly preserving his relationship with Bruce (making sure he doesn’t leave him for them, which Bruce has pretty much done before) and Bruce’s peace of mind. But I do feel that, if Joker himself were the one to take initiative in this matter, the possibility of a positive outcome would be much higher. Not to say they’d all become one happy Family and Jason would buy Joker Christmas presents or shit like that, just that they wouldn’t actively try to murder each other on sight and Jason would not sever ties with Bruce entirely. (One of my favorite headcanons is that Joker goes ‘Look, I gotta admit, your beef against me is valid, and I respect that’ -- and then organizes an annual Joker-hunt. Aka, one day a year, Joker runs and the Family gets to hunt him down and do whatever they want to him, barring killing him. Jason and Barbara both get to really vent some anger this way. I do see a point system being implemented after the first couple of times, and whoever captures/harms Joker most accumulates them. And I think it’d just be so funny if Dick is the one in the lead, against all odds. Bruce finds out about this event only like five years in and nearly has a heart attack.)

...Also, I just find the idea of the Family all tied up in the Batcave, gagged and panicking out of their minds, while Joker’s just pacing back and forth wondering how to go about telling them so funny. “Kids, I’m fucking the Batman! His magical bat-dick is stopping me from killing people! Please keep all questions for the end of the session, thank you.” And then proceeds to explain. Can you imagine the chaos.

#thank you for the ask anon! #hope this was a satisfying answer even if I ended up ranting #can y'all tell I HAVE considered a sequel to REMS #but that realistically it'd end up focused on the Batfam just as much as it'd be focused on Bruce and Joker #just because the Batfam matters to him very much #(even if he's shit at showing it) #asks #batman #batman meta #bruce wayne #batfam #joker #batjokes #batjokes meta #my meta