#that post I've been meaning to make about truth and rumors in mdzs | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

rynne · 2 years

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Soooo I feel like one of the major points of all the rumors in MDZS isn't "rumors are inherently untrustworthy."

It's check your sources.

Determining the truth from what people say in this story is a small lesson on how to evaluate the credibility of a source.

There's some variability in what makes a source credible, but common elements include things like:

What is the source's authority on this topic? Does the source have personal experience with what happened? If not, how far removed are they from it? How much of what they are saying is hearsay?

Does the source have a bias or agenda? What might they get out of making people believe certain things?

Does other factual research/information contradict the source?

Keeping some of these principles in mind, let's take a look at how to evaluate some of the rumors in MDZS.

Wei Wuxian

Our first exposure to the rumors around WWX is in the prologue.

It hadn't been a day since the Siege of the Burial Mound, and the news had already flown across the entire cultivation world as if it had sprouted wings. The speed was only comparable to how fast the flames of war had spread back then, if not faster.

Suddenly everyone, whether they were prominent clans or rogue cultivators, was discussing this operation of vanquishment that had been led by the four great clans and attended by hundreds of sects both big and small.

[...]

"It's obvious from this case that the path of cultivation must always follow the righteous way. The demonic path is only glorious for the moment. You think it looks so glamorous? Heh, look where that got him."

(Suika, p. 9-11)

All of the subsequent discussion comes from people who are not named and whose personal experience with what happened is not established. Considering the rumors here touch on many elements of WWX's life, it seems unlikely they had personal experience themselves. No one steps forward to say they were there for any of it.

Basically, from the very beginning, rumors about WWX are established as not being credible. The sources on these rumors have no real authority on the topic and seem to be far removed from everything that actually happened. These rumors further establish a cultivation world bias right away against demonic/unorthodox cultivation in general and WWX in particular.

Factual information that we get immediately also contradicts a lot of the conclusions these initial speakers come to. For instance, the prologue told us that everyone seemed afraid that if WWX returned, he'd seek revenge and make the whole world suffer. Once we actually meet him, though, we find that he's grumpy about being considered a nefarious, malicious ghost because he'd been a harmless wandering ghost instead, one who shortly after being called back to life uses demonic cultivation to save the lives of Lan juniors.

Some of the information in the prologue is accurate. The speakers claim that WWX died from a backfire, and he confirms that later on. He was once a disciple of Yunmeng Jiang.

This mix of truth, hearsay, and assumptions forces the reader to do some work to determine the reality of what happened.

Consistently through the story, when we are presented with rumors about WWX, taking a moment to evaluate the credibility of the source helps guide us in determining whether we should believe it.

For instance, Yu Ziyuan introduces rumors about WWX's parentage:

“Sect Leader Jiang, it seems that some things I have to say. Look carefully—this, is your own son, the future head of Lotus Pier. Even if you frown upon him just because I was the one who bore him, his surname is still Jiang! … I don’t believe for one second that you haven’t heard of how the outside people gossips, that Sect Leader Jiang has still not moved on from a certain Sanren though so many years have passed, regarding the son of his old friend as a son of his own; they’re speculating if Wei Ying is your…”

(Chapter 56, ExR)

However, this is what the narrative told us earlier about YZY:

There was resentment within her heart. She simply wanted to let out the rage, even if it made no sense.

(Chapter 51, ExR)

Every scene with YZY establishes that she hates WWX. She has a bias. Her words regarding pretty much anything to do with WWX are not credible because she is biased to the point of wanting to let out the rage, even if it makes no sense.

Furthermore, rather than corroborate her points, the narrative undermines them instead -- JFM and WWX both protest the idea that JFM is WWX's father, and we are never given any indication that she's right. Even with other things she says, like how the Wens wouldn't have dared hurt JZX or LWJ, the narrative undermines her because we see what happened and know that the Wens were absolutely willing to kill everyone, including the sect heirs.

We see this kind of bias a lot.

No disciple had ever dared say such lofty words in front of so many people. A moment later, as Jin ZiXun finally regained his composure, he yelled, “Wei WuXian! You’re only the son of a servant—how dare you be so bold!!!”

(Chapter 70, ExR)

Classism is a bias that predisposes many gentry cultivators against WWX. Their words cannot be trusted because they are not evaluating WWX fairly.

We also see people make things up about WWX with an agenda:

Hearing this, Jiang Cheng’s face was already quite dark. Jin GuangShan shook his head, “In an event as important as the Flower Banquet, he dared throw a fit right in front of you, leaving however he pleased. He even dared say something like ‘I don’t care about the sect leader Jiang WanYin at all!’ Everyone who was there heard it with their own ears…”

Suddenly, an indifferent voice spoke up, “No.”

Jin GuangShan was in the middle of his fabrication. Hearing this, he paused in surprise, turning along with the crowd to see who it was.

Lan WangJi sat with his back straight, speaking in a tone of absolute tranquility, “I did not hear Wei Ying say this. I did not hear him express the slightest disrespect towards Sect Leader Jiang either.”

Lan WangJi rarely spoke when he was outside. Even when they debated cultivation techniques during Discussion Conferences, he only answered when others questioned or challenged him. With utmost concision, he overcame, without fault, the lengthy arguments of others. Apart from this, he almost never spoke up. And thus, when Jin GuangShan was interrupted by him, he experienced a far greater shock than annoyance. But after all, his fabrication was exposed right in front of so many. He felt a bit awkward.

The good thing was that, not long after he felt awkward, Jin GuangYao came to save the day, exclaiming, “Really? That day, Young Master Wei busted into Koi Tower with such force. He said too many things, one more shocking than the next. Perhaps he said a few things that were along those lines. I can’t remember them either.”

His memory could only be equal to Lan WangJi’s, if not better. As soon as he heard it, Nie MingJue knew that he was fibbing on purpose, frowning slightly.

Jin GuangShan followed the transition, “That’s right. Anyhow, his attitude has always been arrogant.”

(Chapter 73, ExR)

The Jins have an agenda. Their words are not trustworthy because their purpose is not to tell the truth, it's to advance their agenda (turning everyone against WWX, with the ultimate goal of securing the Yin Hufu for themselves). They are adapting their argument to fit their agenda, not attempting to find the facts.

Consistently, rumors about WWX come from people who have little or no authority to speak on the topic, who are biased against him, who have their own agenda to push. For many of them, the narrative outright discusses their unreliability, but this isn't the case throughout. Still, when MXTX leaves it up to the reader to understand, she provides indications about the source's credibility that the reader can evaluate using the principles I mentioned at the beginning.

Jiang Cheng

There are also several rumors that come up around JC, but evaluating their sources' credibility shows that these rumors are a contrast to WWX. JC is what proves that the point about rumors is not that they're inherently untrustworthy, it's that their trustworthiness needs to be checked.

Jiang Cheng had determined this man to be Wei Wuxian earlier, and the cold blood in his veins boiled. But now, the Zidian in his hand was clearly telling him that no, it wasn't him. Zidian would never lie to him, nor would it ever make mistakes. He quickly calmed down to contemplate. This wasn't a big deal. He would find an excuse to take the man back with him, then use every means possible to beat a confession out of him. Something would be spilled -- there was no fear regarding that. He refused to believe the man would give nothing away. In any event, it wasn't like he hadn't done similar things before.

(Suika, p. 115)

Is this person an authority on the topic? Do they have personal experience with it? Yes. JC is thinking to himself about his own past actions. Does he have a bias? Not one that would make him think about a pattern of behavior that didn't exist. Do later events contradict this? No. When JC does capture WWX, he torments him with his greatest fear and is only prevented from taking him back to Lotus Pier through Jin Ling's interference.

Lan Sizhui reasoned with him. "Mo-gongzi, Hanguang-jun brought you here for your own good. Sect Leader Jiang wouldn't have stood down unless you came with us. Over the years, countless people have been arrested and taken to the Jiang Clan's Lotus Pier, and none were ever freed."

"That's right," Lan Jingyi said. "You've never seen Sect Leader Jiang's methods, have you? Super vicious..."

(Suika, p. 121)

Do Sizhui and Jingyi have personal experience here? It's a little uncertain. Jingyi speaks as if he has seen JC's methods before, and they both saw how JC treated MXY when thinking he was WWX. No one seemed surprised to see JC act that way in front of them.

Do they have a bias or agenda? Maybe. Juniors do have reason to downplay their seniors' misdeeds (LWJ taking WWX to CR against his will), so they might be trying to make an excuse for LWJ.

However, something we find out is that the Lan Sect has a lot of rules, including one that forbids lying. We come to see that Lans in general have an honest reputation and can be referred to for the truth of the matter (such as LWJ speaking out against JGS or WWX using this to unmask Su She in the second siege). We also never actually see Sizhui or Jingyi lie. Sometimes they're wrong, but that's a good-faith mistake, not a lie.

We also know they are not making a good-faith mistake here, because again, JC's own actions when he captures WWX corroborate this rumor.

"It's not the first time my uncle has done something like this," Jin Ling said. "He would always rather catch the wrong person than let them go. [...]"

(Suika, p. 259)

Does Jin Ling have personal experience with this topic? It sounds like it. Does he have a bias or agenda that would make him lie about what JC is doing? JC is his uncle, who we see he trusts and cares about. He has no real reason to make up a bad reputation. Do later events contradict his information? No.

The owner, “I haven’t been there myself, but I know someone who went because his house was being badly haunted. But it was all bad luck. That Sect Leader Jiang was cracking a glowing whip right on the training field. The victim’s flesh and blood flew as high as his screams! A servant secretly informed him that the sect leader caught the wrong person again, that he hadn’t been in a great mood, and that he definitely shouldn’t be irritated in any way. He was so scared that he dropped off the gifts he brought and fled at once. He never dared visit again.”

Wei WuXian had long since heard of how Jiang Cheng had been searching for cultivators of the ghost path who seemed like they seized another’s body, taking them all into Lotus Pier to be tortured and questioned. The owner’s friend probably just happened to have ran into him when he was letting off steam. It wasn’t hard to imagine how hideous Jiang Cheng would have looked, so no wonder a normal person would make a run for it.

(Chapter 92, ExR)

Does this person have personal experience? No, this seems to be hearsay coming from a friend. Does this person have a bias or agenda? I don't think so -- WWX asked why they don't get help from the Jiangs, and this answer seems to be an explanation. Does other information contradict it? No, other information corroborates it.

So what we see with the rumors about JC torturing and killing demonic cultivators is that, even when some elements of a source may be a bit iffy, the information as a whole should still be considered credible because it is consistently corroborated. The authoritative elements of those sources just strengthen that credibility.

Jin Guangyao

However, there is someone else in this story who we see is the subject of a lot of rumors. Evaluating the credibility of those rumors' sources helps us understand what we should consider true about JGY.

“I heard that back when Jin GuangYao worked undercover in the QishanWen Sect, he wasn’t genuine at all. This was what he thought: if the Sunshot Campaign didn’t go well, he’d stay at the Wen Sect and help the villain; if the Wen Sect was about to fall, he’d turn around and become a hero.”

“Wen RuoHan is probably mad as hell in the Underworld. Back then, he trained Jin GuangYao as one of his most trusted cultivators. Almost all of Jin GuangYao’s current swordsmanship was taught to him by Wen RuoHan!”

“That’s not so big of a deal, is it? I heard that the reason ChiFeng-Zun failed the surprise attack was because he purposely sent out the wrong information!”

“I’ll say a secret too. The money and resources he used to build the lookout towers were all collected from other sects, right? Every sect helped out a bit. I heard that he secretly takes… this amount.”

“Oh Heavens… So much? He really is shameless. I thought he really wanted do good back then. All of our sincerity was fed to the dogs!”

Wei WuXian felt that things were rather comical, If they’re rumors, why the hurry to believe them? If they’re secrets, why would you come to know them?

These rumors didn’t happen in just the one day. However, in the past, when Jin GuangYao was popular, they were suppressed quite well. Almost nobody took them seriously. Yet, tonight, all of the rumors seemed to have become absolute truths, forming the rocks and bricks of Jin GuangYao’s supposedly committed crimes, proving his lack of morality.

(Chapter 86, ExR)

Are these people an authority? No, they're mostly talking about things they couldn't possibly have known, like JGY's intentions as a spy. Do they have a bias or agenda? Yes. These rumors existed before, when JGY had less power and people could display their classist bias against him, but once he got power, he was able to suppress them. WWX also makes clear that these people just want to be able to tear JGY down:

He had always been voicing different opinions than the rest, ringing quite starkly against the passionate speeches among the crowd. Some people already seemed very much offended.

Sect Leader Yao spoke loudly, “This is called, the net of Heaven has large meshes, but it lets nothing unwanted through.”

Hearing this, Wei WuXian smiled, and stopped speaking. He knew that right now, nobody could take in what he said. Nobody would carefully consider his suspicions either. A few more words, and maybe the others would start to position themselves against him again. If it were ten years ago, he wouldn’t care about other people at all. He’d say whatever he wanted, and others would have to hear them whether they wanted to or not. Now, however, Wei WuXian no longer had the interest in taking the limelight this way.

(Chapter 86, ExR)

The cultivation world mob wants to be a mob, not carefully consider the facts of the matter.

Finally, does other information corroborate these rumors? No.

This is in contrast to Sisi and Bicao's information. They are established as being authorities on this topic, but they are also established as having an agenda. However, when we get to Yunping, JGY ultimately corroborates their information. He cries a lot of crocodile tears and makes a lot of excuses for himself, but he does confirm the substance of their claims.

All of this shows that we can't believe everything we hear about JGY, because some of it is in fact bullshit from people who have found a target to tear down. However, we also can't dismiss everything, because it gets corroborated by an authoritative source (JGY himself).

Conclusion

There are a lot of rumors in MDZS, and considering most of them are about the protagonist WWX, a lot of them are wrong. However, it would be too simple to say that, because the rumors about WWX tend to be wrong, the story's message about rumors is that they inherently can't be trusted. MXTX provides other rumors or secondhand information (even about WWX -- see the story of the Damsel of Annual Blossoms) that turn out to be true.

The point of rumors is therefore not that they can't ever be trusted, but that you can't just listen to them blindly. You have to do the work of evaluating their credibility. You have to put more thought into it than blindly believing or disbelieving.

You have to check your sources.

#mdzs #mdzs meta #wei wuxian #canon jiang cheng #jin guangyao #that post I've been meaning to make about truth and rumors in mdzs #mdzs says check your sources

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