#that's why VW's ending is not satisfying imo

[randomnameless]

Replying to @fantasyinvader’s post mentionning how Linhardt and Hanneman are more interested in - especially if you don’t poach them - science than leading the people, or even, the people themselves, I wanted to make a post about Lin’s support with Catherine, which is played as a “for science!” support where Cat is amazed at his dedication to research stuff...

But it has those ominous lines :

But to continue my research without taking this chance to know the truth—what would be the point?

Besides ignorance can breed even greater dangers.

Linhardt wants to know “the Truth” and says ignorance breeds dangers... Which is a reasonable point to make, but this is immediately followed by this :

For example, do you know for whom Thunderbrand was originally crafted?

We’re talking about the “truth” hidden about the relics - which is more dangerous, ignorance or people who know “the truth”??

The goddess.

Catherine replies with an argument of authority, most likely the only Rhea thought would make most people stop thinking too much about the hows of Relics and drop the topic...

But not Linhardt!

Correct. And because of that, everyone just stops thinking about it.

Yes, that’s the point.

No one really knows what the Relic is made of, how it was crafted, or what its very structure may be.

Until we know those things and truly understand the power and the danger Relics hold...

We won't be able to...gain any new knowledge. I'm tired of talking.

^^^^ 

This, this is the reason why that secret was made, and the truth hidden! And while those are, say, reasonable questions to have about “magic weapons”, bear in mind Linhardt’s natural route - i.e. where he isn’t poached - with Catherine is SS, where we later learn Nemesis got “more power” from the corpses of the Nabateans...

(Which can be tied to the WoH and Willy’s war, as depicted in Houses, as he “crushed people who wanted more power”, are we talking about people who knew where and how Nemesis got his shinies and wanted more shinies?)

Linhardt will have this new “knowledge”, but what will he do with that knowledge? What are going to be the consequences? Should that truth be revealed? Would he try to kill a Nabatean to test a theory about Relic making?

This support touches one of the themes completely eluded by the game about Truth and if it should always be shared with the World, or if some truths should be hidden to protect some people -

SS!Linhardt is someone sensible (sort of, he also has this line against SS’s final boss “Well, that's something, isn't it? A shame we must kill her. Consider the research potential...“...) who wouldn’t skin Flayn alive to see if her bones can really be used to make a relic...

But unrecruited Linhardt or even CF!Linhardt doesn’t give a fuck about being sensible or not, fights alongside Baldo’n’Waldi, which raises an entire can of worms, can we really believe Linhardt, who’s passioned by Crests and their applications, would just roll with Baldo’n’Waldi popping up as Crests Beasts, heck, when some of the War Assets are artificially engineered by the Empire, who also makes artificial Crest Stones? Wouldn’t Linhardt try to, idk, know how those “things” are made, and oversee researches himself?

He has the common sense to spare Indech, by not rattling him to Supreme Leader and Hubert in CF, but is it because Indech has no interest for him in CF, so he doesn’t want the battlefield to become more “bothersome” since it’s useless to kill him, or for some reason, wanted to spare him because he’s still the same guy who’s afraid of blood and hates bloodshed, but when it came to Baldo’n’Waldi he cannot give any fucks?

#random thoughts #the more i think about them the less i appreciate the members of the besf at first it was just meh #but then this #maybe it's a side effect from npoes #it's always the same question if humans know what relics are made of will they make more relics or refrain from making any? #given how Fodlan's history shows how some humans are power hungry #what would stop them from slaughtering Seteth to make a shiny bone club? #but the red herring about 'church BaD bcs hides stuff' is stronger than making the player and the cast think about #revealing the truth and its consequences #in a way if CF is a worst case scenario Nabateans trusted humans with their secrets and here they come 1k years later after them #it's a hc at this point i have but willy's reaction when some dude from a tribe said he knew how to make golden weapons was to slaughter #that dude and his entire tribesmen #which of course made Seiros the Warrior furious #but to willy there were no other solutions #FE16 #that's why VW's ending is not satisfying imo #Rhea conveniently dies but what about Flayn and Seteth #Claude wouldn't make relics would he? but what if he tells his children how to make them? #and 1k years we have another Supreme Leader?

[vamp--dad]

Me? Feeling things about 3h routes? 👀

Spoilers for all routes below

[[MORE]]

I just really like how there doesn't seem to be one solid canon route, and they all have strengths in different areas.

CF is heavily hinted at by the end credits being from Edelgard's perspective, but also that with her uniting Fódlan again it bookends Fódlan's history. It also shows a very soft side to a very stern leader between the important scenes such as the painting, and imo creates a true ending for Byleth and Sothis being independent from one another ALSO ALSO it's very satisfying for a player to tear down an ancient and broken system and rebuild it, emotionally and psychologically imo. Especially in today's world.

AM follows a very Hero's journey type of structure and focuses on the characters more. It starts out with a charming picture perfect prince, breaks him, then puts him back together. It paints Edel as a conqueror that must be vanquished, but at least takes the opportunity to show WHY she does what she does and shows sympathy for her. That ending cutscene still hurts ngl. It was satisfying seeing Dimi hear her out and offer her chances to live despite everything

I'm not 100% on all the details for VW since I'm still playing it, so I might get some of this wrong. But VW covers the lore, and focuses on uprooting the real villain present in all routes, and puts an end to a fight that's gone on for so long. Not only that but??? Fighting Nemesis bookending the game with the opening cutscene??? THAT BOSS BATTLE THEME???????

I'm struggling with SS but I feel like it's a very "what-if" route (and wish I hadn't gone with it for my first lol) and seeing as it unites Fódlan under the banner of the church it feels very "Nobody wins" like Revelations started out with for fates. Church stinky but it almost feels like neutral ground which sets up a lot of thinking for the player. And I hc that Byleth as ruler would be like "ok so let's tone down the everything maybe" on their FIRST DAY

All in all it feels correct to have them all balanced. I feel like "nobody is completely right, everyone does both good and bad things" is a recurring theme for this game and I really appreciate that because that's how people work

#fe3h #hhhhh

[maid-of-the-golden-deer]

PLEASE bitch to us about fe3h, i am listening

i was reading a book for the first time in like two years sorry i didnt get to this earlier lmao

i think the thing which will make people the angriest at me is why i think sil///ver snow and az//ure moon are not really satisfying endings. its not because the people in charge in those routes are bad or i wholly disagree with them but they NEVER discuss what they will ACTUALLY do to make the world better. shit just stays the same with the nebulous statement of "better" and "improved" bitch how?? tell me HOW!!! like claude and edelgard the whole time are talking about at least one major thing they want to change, agree or disagree with them.

so like its not that i don't think life doesn't improve but imo the way the world is left in those routes leaves gaping holes for someone less "nice" to exploit all over again down the line. so like no disrespect to the ppl who like those routes but i don't think ill ever play then past getting their exclusive supports once, whereas I'll be playing CF and VW for years to come.

also i don't think crimson flower needs to be as long as the other routes. it makes total sense for it to be shorter, since you are the underdogs in all the other routes when you fight against the empire. i think all it really needed was to have the shambala chapter from the VW/silve///r snow and it would have been perfectly complete.

also also apex of the world is the worst of the final map themes. it still totally slaps, but it lacks the epic quality of god shattering star, or the unique melancholy of a funeral of flowers.

also also ALSO sorry but there's way more of a basis for edel///claude than dimi////claude. there's like. no chemistry between dimi////claude at all, it's boring and just ppl slapping two characters together who they see as hot rather than bc it makes sense or is good. its boring and i hate to see it.

there's probably but these are the ones that will make some people absolutely hate me

[randomnameless]

The idea that SS says the Church needs to be rehabilitated in Rhea's ending is entirely on the translation. The Japanese text says that "Meanwhile, Rhea, who survived, returned to her duties as archbishop after she recovered her strength, and she aligned herself with the unified kingdom, working to rebuild the church and help people suffering from war damage." And while I've mentioned Claude's endings with Flayn before regarding Wind, the endings mention that the new order/society of Fodlan is built by the heroes who saved Fodlan which would include the CoS.

Pat really hated Rhea it seems if he does that to her ending. Her rebuilding the CoS? That's not good, she needs to make them atone. But then again, he also tried to make it so that Edelgard had similar ideals to Claude when the game ultimately says otherwise.

Oh I know, I've read your posts about this lol

TBH, while Pat is to blame for the Pat'd script, the Church, as in Rhea's church, is always depicted as needing/being reformed : it wasn't in SS's ending proper, but in Rhea's own S Support where she blames herself for, well, everything that happened but also confesses she used her position as the Archbishop for her personal plan to see her mother again...

And yet, if we look at her actions - and the ones that can be tied to her "rez Sothis plan", bar maybe making Sitri a priest/nun, what did she meant by the "took advantage of my position of the Archbishop"/"used my position as the Archbishop" to see her mother again?

In this S-support, Rhea herself considers her CoS/her lead of the CoS might be to blame for Supreme Leader's war and gives "empty" criticisms to her actions : emtpy as in, well, the game doesn't bother telling/showing what were those "occasions" where Rhea explicitely used her position as the Archbishop to make her wish come true.

Maybe if we pull our hair a bit, we can say the "Billy sitting on the chair" ceremony? That was made to "bring back" Sothis and she asked Billy to do that as their boss and the Archbishop of the CoS?

In a nutshell, it's less "the church needs to be reformed" in SS, but more "Rhea acknowledges she did BaD things (which are?) and used the CoS through her position as the Archbishop to do so (receipt not found?)" so with Billy and in the epilogue, obviously she doesn't do those "BaD" things anymore and their work is miraculous.

As for Claude, while he does "fall in love" with Flayn who is working in the Church with her Father - and this ending obviously cannot be triggered if Claude ends with Billy - Claude's very own words in his Billy S-support, imo, cannot be ignored, while Billy will take Rhea's role as the one people will rely on, he wants Billy to create a Fodlan with "new values" that won't exclude people for being different... implying Fodlan had such values before the War, CoS included - when we know, even in FE16, that this is bullshit!

So while Claude can end up with Flayn despite her being a member of the Church, she's a member of the post-VW Church that is "reformed/different" from the old church, because in VW, the Church has "new values that don't exclude people for being different".

So back to the original post

Compare with Houses, who always removes Nabateans/Rhea of the picture (except in SS’s S support) and brings “reforms” to the CoS - because it needed some, even if we will never know what they are or why those reforms were needed.

SS's reforms are less "reforms" and more "Rhea reckons she did BaD things so will stop doing them now".

The icing on the cake takes the form of Seteth'n'Flayn's paired ending, let it be in the lolcalised or even in the OG (Googled though!) script :

While Flayn disappeared soon after the war, Seteth stayed at the monastery and worked to restore the authority of the Church of Seiros. Doing away with his old strictness, he adopted a tolerant stance toward all, and encouraged his followers to do the same. When he was satisfied that the message was received, he vanished from the monastery.

In the lolcalised version, Seteth adopts a tolerant stance toward all (which he didn't have before?? Source?) and asked his followers to do the same (which he never did before either???) and apparently, when he was satisfied because his message not to be, uh, asshats was received, he finally left the monastery.

Because obviously, under the old CoS, when he was leading investigations against the Western Church and called names by those same people because his creed and followers are "too tolerant", he, uh, wasn't "adopting a tolerant stance toward all and encouraging his followers to do the same".

In the JP version :

フレンは戦後まもなく姿を消したが、セテス はその後も大司教補佐として大修道院に留ま り、教団の権威回復に努めた。かつての厳格 さは鳴りを潜め、何事においても寛大な措置 を取るよう運営方針を転換。時代に即した教 義の改革を妥協なく推し進め、信徒に混乱の ないことを見届けてから大修道院を去った

Google'd it gives some :

Flayn disappeared shortly after the war, but Seteth remained at the abbey as an assistant archbishop and worked to restore the authority of the order. His former strictness has subsided, and he has changed his management policy to take more lenient measures in all matters. He uncompromisingly promoted doctrinal reform in line with the times, and after seeing that there was no confusion among the faithful, he left the abbey.

So, sure, there's no fuckery about "a tolerant stance" because the JP script is more coherent with, well, the general script, it's more like Seteth finally stopped being so strict and became a tidbit more lenient.

And yet...

What are those "doctrinal reforms in line with the times"???

How did he change the CoS' doctrine, sure, it was to be "in line with the times", but what was changed?

This ending basically tells us - something Seteth also says in Nopes' expedition lines or in his Tea time lines? - that he doesn't agree with the doctrine (whatever it is he doesn't agree with) and since Seteth is a playable character who can be supported, his PoV is obviously biased as in, for the player, Seteth is the kind guy so if he says the CoS' doctrine needs reformation, he won't reform it to put some "might makes right" rule, but obviously reform it for the better.

What is that "better doctrine"?

This ending can be obtained in all routes where Nabateans aren't hunted to make a world "for humanity", even in SS where Rhea'n'Billy work together to make Fodlan prosperous and miraculous so... in all routes, the Church is reformed.

Houses wise : the Church is always reformed/needs reformation/did BaD things we never saw -> which serves to make it more "shady" and pretend to have "earl grey", because if the Church always needs reformation, then Supreme Leader targeting it isn't completely unjustified and nonsensical, right?

But when Nopes drops FE16's framing a little bit and we see, maybe for 15 seconds, the CoS do stuff... well, even if Seteth mentions "not agreeing with all tenets", from what we see and hear about the CoS, his doubts don't have the same weight since, hey, we witness the "help other if they need it" tenets, "don't impose the CoS' values on people who aren't from Fodlan" tenet, "we will repay our debts" tenet, etc etc.

Is this the part of the doctrine Seteth disagrees with? This doctrine needs reformation?

Tl;Dr : Church BaD which is why Supreme Leader's war isn't completely nonsensical and why the self insert of this opus can rightfully become God and run the show better than anyone who was there before, but we will never show us what this "BaD" entail, we just are told about it.

In turn, this creates Earl Grey and the "morally grey masterpiece uwu" reputation this game has - Agarthans have no place in this Earl Grey masterpiece, that's why some people try to come up with reasons or justifications to explain why they aren't that worse than the faction the game uses a piñata despite showing us all the "not BaD" things they do.

#fantasyinvader #imo it's less than the CoS is destroyed or ignored in the non tru piss ending #but it's always reformed/modified #because the original one under Rhea's leadership needed 'reformation' #whatever this entails #Seteth'n'Flayn's ending in both versions really sucks #that's why I can't take the Fodlan game's plot seriously #i guess we disagree on Claude lol #but back to your original post #Agarthans must be earl greyed because their victims are always depicted as very BaD #let it be by Supreme Leader but even in the rest of the games #so if the fake morally grey comes from the game telling us the sky is red when we see it's always blue #Agarthans musn't be evil and one note like they are in canon #they must somehow have redeeming qualities else it's another strike against #what the game is telling us about the Church being very very BaD and not #just an organisation that basically runs a giant charity #FE16 #3 nopes #i reblogged that post about puritanism #maybe it can also partly explain Pat's hateboner against the CoS? #idk