#the men of marvel tend to do a lot of the fucking up imo

[morwensteelsheen]

so @tinacharles and I have sort of been having this conversation about the varying levels of culpability of all the men in Éowyn’s life re: her abject fucking misery, which got me to thinking about how that discussion would play out in-universe.

I know it’s pretty popular (and not incorrectly so, imo!) to have Éomer being fairly distrustful of Faramir, but I think it's underplayed just how much ammunition Faramir has to be out-and-out fucked off with Éomer on Éowyn's behalf.

Part of that understatement is a desire, I reckon, to see all the named Rohirrim as basically innocents, manipulated beyond aid by Wormtongue, and functionally helpless until Gandalf and the Three Hunters show up, but that's a take that is, imo, too reliant upon what we get in the movie canon and not reliant enough on what's actually written in the text! The point of Théoden's downfall is that it is his pride and his hubris (and not any magic!) that is his undoing, and it is Gandalf's reminders that his responsibilities are greater than the weight of the injuries to his pride that "brings him back" so to speak. The ability to stop fucking around exists at all moments within Théoden, there is no magic, no great battles, not valiant rescues involved, it's just about him putting his big girl panties on and dealing with his own life. But because there's a tendency to see too much of the movie canon in these characters, their relative culpability in Éowyn's immiseration is largely erased, which is incredibly unfair both in terms of treating these characters with the nuance they deserve, but also in terms of treating Éowyn's misery with the seriousness it deserves!

And a key element of this is Éomer's complacency/culpability in all of this. I often quote the conversation between Gandalf, Aragorn, and Éomer after the Pelennor about Éowyn's ~fundamental unknowability~, but I think it is, uhhh, pretty fucked up that Aragorn, Faramir, and Gandalf are all able to spot out Éowyn's deeply destroyed mental health within minutes of coming into contact with her (and yes, it is true enough that they're all powered-up slightly by magic-ish things) while Éomer, who has spent literally his entire life around her, doesn't really have an inkling of what's actually going on in her interior life. That's really upsetting to me, and is no doubt deeply upsetting and isolating for Éowyn, who has basically no other people in her life until Faramir shows up (you know, after she literally tries to kill herself!).

More than that, when Gandalf and the Three Hunters show up and immediately break Théoden free of his pity party, we don't get a sense that undermining Wormtongue has any actual political repercussions—Hama (👑) immediately names Éowyn as the favoured heir to the throne, which says that she's got a substantial amount of organic support where and when it matters. Yes, it's true they immediately have to go fight Saruman's forces in Helm's Deep, but Helm's Deep is a pretty unique battle in the books for how "small" it is in terms of coalitions: the Rohirrim fight that sucker almost entirely unaided! So if a consequence of unseating Wormtongue had been facing down Saruman's lot on the battlefield (assuming that he would have been prepared to do so at any point before the canonical Battle of the Hornburg), we know that the Rohirrim could have handled it, and what's more, they might have been in an even better position to have handled it, because Théodred would have likely still been alive, alongside however many men they lost at the Battle of the Fords of Isen. A lot of words to say: there's really no indication that there was a danger, per se, to beating Wormtongue's ass down; but we do know that there was some obstacle. Tolkien goes pretty far out of his way to hint that it's a lack of will that's doing most of the work there. As readers, I think we're all mostly content to ignore this element of Éomer's complacency because we do largely see Éomer at his best and most noble, but I think we do a real disservice to both his and Éowyn's characters for not dealing with that more intimately.

Anyways, my original point is that I think Faramir has really good reason to be quite grumpy with Éomer and I think he'd actually probably be supported in that frustration by Éowyn, who would almost certainly be pretty chuffed to finally have someone fighting her corner after so many years. I don't know exactly how Faramir's frustration would manifest—almost certainly not with the level of vitriol and overtness that his frustration with his father manifested itself, but I do think he would be very good at making sure that Éomer is keenly aware that Faramir is Unhappy about his actions/lack thereof. That, I think, adds a really interesting dynamic not just to Éowyn and Faramir's personal life, particularly as they're off starting their lives together, but also their political life, given that Éomer is the new King of the Riddermark, shown to be exceptionally close with both Aragorn and Imrahil, and, of course, is later married to Faramir's cousin—some of Faramir's last living family.

Edit: just picked up the books to double check some stuff so adding cites beneath the cut

On Théoden's 'malady':

"the influence over him that Gríma gained when the King's health began to fail. This occurred early in the year 3014, when Théoden was sixty-six; his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma. In any case Théoden's sense of weakness and dependence on Gríma was largely due to the cunning and skills of this evil counsellor's suggestions."

From Unfinished Tales, V. The Battles of the Fords of Isen.

On Éomer Missing The Fucking Point:

"But Aragorn came to Éowyn, and he said: ‘Here there is a grievous hurt and a heavy blow. The arm that was broken has been tended with due skill, and it will mend in time, if she has the strength to live: It is the shield-arm that is maimed; but the chief evil comes through the sword-arm. In that there now seems no life, although it is unbroken.

‘Alas! For she was pitted against a foe beyond the strength of her mind or body. And those who will take a weapon to such an enemy must be sterner than steel, if the very shock shall not destroy them. It was an evil doom that set her in his path. For she is a fair maiden, fairest lady of a house of queens. And yet I know not how I should speak of her. When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. Or was it, maybe, a frost that had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die? Her malady begins far back before this day, does it not, Éomer?’

‘I marvel that you should ask me, lord,’ he answered. ‘For I hold you blameless in this matter, as in all else; yet I knew not that Éowyn, my sister, was touched by any frost, until she first looked on you. Care and dread she had, and shared with me, in the days of Wormtongue and the king’s bewitchment; and she tended the king in growing fear. But that did not bring her to this pass!’

‘My friend,’ said Gandalf, ‘you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.

‘Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears? Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs? Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister’s love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?’

Then Éomer was silent, and looked on his sister, as if pondering anew all the days of their past life together."

From Return of the King, VIII The House of Healing

#lotr #meta #this counts as a meta right? #faramir #éowyn #éomer #théoden #excessive tagging is for my blog organisation i am SO sorry

[coffeebeannate]

thoughts on the old guard characters? (a long one I know lol)

HO BOY.

I LOVE long asks when I have the braincells! *He says, as if he ever has braincells*

ANYWAY.

I’m going to go with just the movie for now, since I’ve only read the first volume of the comics yet and there’s definitely some changes.

This post is long, so I put all my brain rambles beneath the cut.

I also cheated and only did the Guard themselves for some brevity, if you want extensions with Copley, etc. I’ll do a part two :)

Andy/ Andromache the Scythian

ANDY. ANDY. ANDY ANDYYYYYYYYYYY.

I love her. I love her SO MUCH. I regret that I never really explore her as much as I want to. Because there is just SO MUCH THERE. There is so much to work with, to explore to understand and to see. I adore her. She’s jaded, but she’s also clearly somewhat passionate in her own way. Something has kept her going this long. She loves her family. She is at her most open and honest and vulnerable with her family! 

The world gets a facade, her calm, collective glance of ‘I don’t give a fuck but I actually do give a fuck but letting you know I give a fuck makes things complicated’. But when she’s with Nicky and Joe, (and Booker), she’s laughing, she’s enjoying their company. She looks so happy and instantly relaxes and I JUST!!

I love that she’s not some 19 year old (possible ageism). I love that they let a 45 year old actress play a character who is clearly over 30 and very much badass. The whole ‘only young women or very old women in movies’ trope is so old, so overdone. (And I’m still salty about this person who said it’s bullshit to see ‘grandma Charlize beating up men twice her size’, as if Liam Nesson doesn’t do just that in his seventies BUT ANYWAY).

Andy is SO multilayered. She’s clearly struggling, and she’s angry and cynical and OH so fucking tired, but she’s still VERY LOVING. She cares about Nile, she cares about her family, she CARES. She’s allowed to be upset! She’s allowed to be ugly emotionally (as they might say it in Hollywood, ffs), she’s allowed to be angry and happy and sweet and she has agency and vulnerability and I JUST LOVE THAT.\

She can also step on me I mean what.

ANYWAY.

Nile Freeman

NILE. NILE MADAM. 

Nile is just a MARVEL. She’s sweet. She’s caring. She has ALL the heart and takes NONE of the shit!! There’s so much to her. She’s devoted (I really love that she’s religious, and that the movie doesn’t take this away from her, regardless of things that happen). I love how utterly devoted she is. I love that she’s able to retain so much of her own personal autonomy, AND that she’s both scared and confused, but also SECURE. 

Nile doesn’t know WTF is happening. First kill in the Marines, very sudden death, you have a brand new family? Oh, you also can’t see your family again? Your mother and brother? Oh and this lady with the bizarre name has effectively kidnapped you so you can’t be shipped to a lab in Germany? THE FUCK.

Kiki does such a MAGNIFICENT job too! Like the amount of emotions she conveys!! All of Nile’s confusion, anger, upset. Hurt. How throughout all this, she’s shown as street smart! Clever! ADPATABLE.

Nile  becomes something ‘new’ but retains her original personality entirely. And I LOVE that. She is young, but she isn’t babied. She’s allowed to be guided without being considered infantile. She’s allowed to be here whole self and it’s SO GOOD.

Also, you wake up in a Humvee in the desert and your first instinct is to kick the back end out and roll away? And then stab your kidnapper?? AMAZING.

I love that she’s an art nerd. I love her enthusiasm, I love her heart. I love her cleverness. I love how she can be a bit “wtf’ but also flat out doesn’t take ANYONE’S bullshit EVER.

“We’re not going to Paris” HELL MA’AM GUESS WE ARE NOT. 

Sebastien Le Livre/ Booker

(Rucka once again I ask you, was that name only for the punning? Because I love puns to but cmon)

So..Booker.

I’m..I’m not neutral, but I tend to not think about him much beyond what is necessary. I think I’d feel that my thoughts on him are ‘complicated’ so I’ll keep his section short. I WILL say that his character is VERY well written. Booker cannot be called a flat character. And maybe I’m naive, but my first time watching the movie? Yeah, totally goddamned BLINDSIDED. And I give the movie a LOT of credit for that. 

Maybe smarter people saw it coming, but I sure didn’t. So hey, kudos.

I understand him. I understand his motivations. And for a person suffering from that kind of depression, the toxic sabotaging kind, yeah. It’s well done. His motives are..his motives. I’ll probably not ever know what it feels like to outlive your children. But lots of my family members did. I get how it destroys you.

However, Booker needs help. And it’s on Booker, IMO, to get that help, outside of his family. Because he hurt them. He hurt them badly. It’s not the kind of thing you just come back from.

Consider my attitude..curious.

Joe/Yusuf Al-Kaysani

I can’t make this too long I can’t make this too long I can’t-

JOE. Is a MARVELOUS MAN. He’s soft. He’s artistic. He’s strong and sweet and his entire face lights up like the actual honest to god sun that he IS. I love how much he loves. I love how compassionate he is. I love his passion. His soft voice. His kind caring attitude.

BUT AS A FLIP SIDE.

I love how badass he is. I go slightly feral from the bullet spitting ‘very pissed off’. DARLING, NO KIDDING. I love how he’s just got this kinda hidden swag element. He is so clearly the life source of every room he enters. Show stealer. He’s the one that makes people feel comfortable immediately. With charm and boastfulness. With just such great WARMTH. Joe feels like a fireplace. You just want to curl up with him.

He cares so much about the world. His husband. His family.

THE SPEECH??

Imagine someone LOOKING AT YOU THAT WAY. No wonder Nicky is downright wavering on us. I’D FAINT.

Joe seems to love the world around him so much. And yeah, okay, he holds out with  justified anger. (I SUPPORT THIS ANGER), but he’s also clearly affectionate. He’s open with his love. Joe literally wears his heart on his sleeve. You KNOW how Joe is feeling at all times. Because Joe can’t hide it. And if you have his love and friendship, you have it forever.

Joe could do audiobooks. Joe could paint museums full of paintings. 

And those curls? Best. Incredible.

Marwan made Joe into such an incredible character I LOVE HIM YOUR HONOUR SIR I LOVE HIM.

Nicky/ Nicolò di Genova

Ahhh Joe’s other half. Man of few words, but when those words come out they cut and say so DAMNED MUCH. And what isn’t said vocally is always said with a look, a smile. MICRO EXPRESSIONS THAT SPEAK THE WORLD.

Nicky seems like such an aware character. Nicky is the type that makes very conscious decisions every single day. Be kind. Daily. This is not the type of man who does anything lightly. I feel like Nicky is a calculated sort, but with EVERYTHING. Because he KNOWS that your presence in this world makes an impact. He knows how important being self-aware is. He feels so lucky and grateful to be with Joe and his family at all times.

I LOVE HIS SNIPING. I love his outfits! I love how intense and sweet and compassionate he is. I feel like he has some little shit energy. Doing something slightly devious? Probably. Having ideas just because? Damned right! I can only imagine how much dry teasing Joe has endured over the centuries. Because Nicky is just so raw and clever. You can never be entirely sure what he’s thinking, perhaps. Joe can read him like a book, but I think anyone else might be finding themselves looking a touch harder. Just in case.

I love Luca’s accent! I love how competent Nicky is! He loves Joe just as openly too, and I adore it??

“The love of my life was the people I’ve been taught to hate” THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE! AND THAT TINY SMILE! THE SMILE OF A THOUSAND WORDS.

Quynh

Boss. I want more immediately. I NEED MORE.

Lykon

RIP we barely knew ya.

Final Thoughts:

I LOVE THESE CHARACTERS SO MUCH.

I love that we got ALL THIS.

In TWO DAMNED HOURS.

I love the thoughts the actors put forth. I love how dedicated everyone was to this movie. I love how there’s so much from what could have gone so wrong.

I LOVE THEM!!

#the old guard #thoughts on the old guard #nate answers things #ok to rebagel #I LOVE THEM ALL YOUR HONOUR #old guard characters #asks #ask #THANK YOU FOR THIS ASK SORRY IT'S SO LONG #nilefreemans