#wot book journey | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

butterflydm · 29 days

Text

more WoT s3 spec - what we know vs what we're guessing at

I've been poking at what we know about s3 vs what we can reasonably guess, so I wanted to break that down a bit.

So there are a few things we know just about the structure of how the show has worked so far: we know they shoot in blocks of two episodes each and that each of those blocks is going to have the same director for both episodes. Because of this info, we can make some guesses at where specific episodes may land. We also have some casting info (wotseries.com being a great resource here).

They tend to have a major reveal in the fourth episode - Nynaeve being incredibly powerful in the One Power in 1x04; Selene being Lanfear in 2x04.

What we know for certain:

Rhuidean & the Waste will appear (Rand & Egwene's storyline).

Tanchico will appear (Nynaeve & Elayne's storyline).

The Two Rivers will appear (Perrin's storyline).

Rand and Perrin will each get focus episodes akin to Nynaeve having "What Might Be" and Egwene having "Eyes Without Pity" in s2.

We have four episode titles: "To Race The Shadow"; "A Glimpse of Crimson"; "Goldeneyes"; and "He Who Comes With The Dawn".

Sea Folk are confirmed for S3.

Potential leaks include:

Mat, Min, and Thom all being part of Nynaeve & Elayne's storyline in Tanchico. Big change for Mat & Min, but matches canon for Thom. And since show-onlys have only seen Thom with Mat and Rand, it would make sense to use Mat to re-introduce us to him.

Reports of the actresses reported to be playing Morgase and Elaida seen at a castle which is almost certainly in Caemlyn (Andoran banners spotted), most likely for the first or second episode due to the timing.

An actress playing Maigran (one of the Aiel from the Rhuidean glass columns sequence) is listed under the director who is being used for eps 3 and 4.

An actress has been cast to play an older version of Latra and I really like @wheeloftimeofficial's idea that we'll see her as the ancient Aes Sedai who establishes Rhuidean in the glass column memories, especially since the younger actress also has s3 listed on her CV.

We have (unofficially) confirmed castings for Faile & Galad.

Hints we've gotten from interviews & bts info:

In an interview filmed before the actors' strike, Daniel mentions Lan having some really good relationship scenes with Nynaeve, so we know that there's interaction between those characters before their plotlines separate, implying that we will not begin with everyone already all off on their separate journeys, like they were in 2x01.

Also from Daniel, it's implied that there are training scenes between Lan and Rand (could happen at any point, since Lan is likely to be in Rand's storyline the entire season).

From what Josha has said, the show will be pivoting to a more familial relationship between Egwene and Rand next season (which matches the book timing).

Rafe made a point of mentioning that Elayne healing Rand was to flag to the audience that this was a relationship to pay attention to (which implies we'll get at least some movement on that relationship in s3).

Josha also says that there is "way more togetherness" for Two Rivers' characters in s3 than in s2.

In an unrelated interview on screenrant, Rima Te Waita (Sheriam) mentioned that she will not be in s3 but, if s4 is greenlit, she will be in s4.

Josha and Ayoola posted some cute instas of each other after finishing up the South Africa shooting stint near Cape Town, which might be a hint towards our potential AviRand interactions (could also just be the actors being cute!).

Guesses based on book & show knowledge:

It seems likely to me that Gawyn & Galad will be introduced in the same episode as Morgase and Elaida, which I am tentatively going to guess will be episode 2.

I think that Verin, Alanna & their Warders are going to be getting out of Cairhien as quickly as possible. And that they are pretty conveniently set up to head to their TSR storyline.

I am pretty torn about when the coup will happen! I feel like it happening this season feels pretty much a lock because there really isn't any more "White Tower storyline" until the coup happens, and they do already have the set made. But it could either happen pretty early on or fairly late in the season. Maybe episode five? That lets us meet Elaida in episode 2, gives her and possibly Gawyn & Galad time to get to the White Tower, maybe we get some scenes of her politicking in the WT in episode 4, with the trigger being pulled in episode 5 or 6. But another possibility is that the coup happens right away, while all those Sisters are still in Cairhien and we see Liandrin take the lead on something like stilling Siuan and Leane, which would put the White Tower in chaos before Elaida even arrives. There are at least two Black Ajah Sisters in Cairhien, after all, and Liandrin likes to act extra-judicially, and she might want to try to make sure that Siuan is taken care of before anyone has a chance to out her (Liandrin) as Black Ajah. But there is also a chance that it might happen in the finale, so that we can parallel Moiraine & Siuan's 'downfalls'. So really this one is a wildcard for me. It isn't really directly tied to any other specific events in TSR, so it can happen whenever.

We will get the glass columns in episode 3 or 4. In the books, it happened as soon as Rand landed in the Waste, basically, but the show could potentially do Cold Rocks Hold first, depending on how Rand is getting to the Waste. I used to lean towards it happening in ep3, but after learning the leak about Mat being in Tanchico, it made me wonder about ep4, maybe, as that could potentially lead to Mat going through the doorways (just speculation with zero leaks or spoilers to back it up but I like it a lot lol) from Tanchico to Rhuidean either at the end of ep4 or the start of ep5, leaving Nynaeve & Elayne's storyline and going to Rand & Egwene's.

I do keep thinking about Josha saying that the Two Rivers' kids would have "way more togetherness" than in s3, which seems difficult if they all separate by or after ep2 and then don't reunite the entire season. I guess technically it would be true because they don't reunite in s2 until the final moments of 2x08 but feels somewhat underwhelming to mention, lol.

I do still suspect that we're getting Lanfear & Moiraine with the doorway at the end of the season.

So, a tentative outline. Now we leave behind the more solid leaks and knowledge and enter into the wild speculations. Please check out @markantonys' recent post too, she's got some fun speculations!

3x01: To Race the Shadow

"Way more togetherness" between the Two Rivers group than in s2, so says Josha. This is also where we have to be getting the Lan & Nynaeve romantic scenes that Daniel keeps hyping up, lol.

Moiraine and Rand are going to be arguing about his next plans.

Something will happen that makes them realize that Something Is Up in Tanchico -- this might be a first Dream from Egwene that leads them in the direction of the museum? Which also leads to her talking to Amys, which is why she decides to go with Rand instead of going with Nynaeve & Elayne. The big question for me is if they are going to Tanchico because of Liandrin or if they go for other reasons and then run into Liandrin also being there to get the same thing that they're getting.

Now Mat may go into a doorway here as speculated by @markantonys (the room of curiosities) but for this specific outline, I'm going to say that he doesn't, and instead he chooses to go with Elayne & Nynaeve because he's running away from Rand (after the Stabbening). This pulls in something that Mat tries to do a lot in the books but gives him a new motivation that fits his show character.

I think Lanfear is going to warn Rand about the rest of the Forsaken being free but potentially also send Liandrin to Tanchico to try to get the, uh, plot token for her potential use in the future (a girl needs a back-up plan).

Lanfear talking to Rand might be another thing that Rand and Moiraine argue about.

Rand and Egwene are going to have their official 'break-up' and then we'll see their more platonic relationship develop over the course of the season. I also feel like we have to have at least a scene or two with Rand and Elayne to establish them feeling Some Kind of Way about each other, to build on that moment from 2x08.

3x02: A Glimpse of Crimson

Good episode title for a Red Ajah & Andor episode!

I'm going to guess that Rand & co are going to be stopping in Caemlyn (my feelings are similar to @markantonys about us potentially getting a garden introduction between Egwene & Gawyn here, and then having Rand & Egwene meet Elaida & Morgase (and Galad?). Elaida will have her Foretelling about Rand and freak herself out.

Our group hears the rumors about the Two Rivers, and Perrin decides to go investigate. The question is how is Rand going to get to the Waste from Caemlyn? I don't feel like they would introduce Portal Stones as a one-off if they haven't done it before, so I think there's a chance that Loial might go with Rand instead of Perrin, as Perrin doesn't need to go through the Ways to get to the Two Rivers (of course, then they would need to change how the battle resolves in 3x07).

(alternatively: there's always the Lanfear express, I guess, lol)

This could also be when Elayne, Nynaeve, & Mat arrive in Tanchico, and their introduction to the city is our B plot. I don't think they would throw all the plots at them at once and I feel like just introducing Thom first would be a good start for the first episodes in Tanchico.

3x03: Unknown

Rand & co arrive in the Waste, but I'm going to send them to Cold Rocks Hold for now, instead of straight to Rhuidean. This gives Rand and Aviendha time to bond, Rand and Moiraine time to fight, Rand and Lan time to train together, and gives the audience a chance to get to know the Aiel culture in a bit more of a relaxed setting. Then we get an attack by Shadowspawn and Rand gets the reminder that the other Forsaken have been let free and don't share Ishamael and Lanfear's feelings about him.

Another plot will be in Tanchico, involving Nynaeve, Elayne, and Mat investigating, running into Min and/or Egeanin or Tuon taking Egeanin's role. This may be where we get our early encounters with Moghedien (she Compels one or more of our characters to spill the beans to her about their plans) and potentially where she reveals herself to Liandrin & co as one of the Chosen and takes control of their group after playing servant for part of the episode.

We also have Perrin & co arriving in the Two Rivers and getting the lay of the land. This could be a fairly emotional episode for Perrin, due to memories of Laila's death. Maybe when Perrin says goodbye to Laila (putting his ring on her grave/memorial?) and potentially our first sighting of Faile.

3x04: Unknown

Rand goes to Rhuidean and into the glass columns. This is the main plot of the episode and Rand's focus episode of the season.

We get the history of the Aiel here, and learn about Rand's ancestors.

Subplot: Aviendha is told that she is destined to be a Wise One (maybe she accidentally channeled during the fight at Cold Rocks Hold?) and deals with idea that she has to leave behind being a Maiden.

Our Tanchico B-plot leads to Mat entering through the twisted doorway in the museum, For Reasons, and getting his prophecies. Maybe this same plotline leads to Elayne and Nynaeve finding dream ter'angreal, and to Tuon/Egeanin realizing that Elayne and Nynaeve are channelers, and potentially learns that all sul'dam are, and then leaves our main plotline at this time.

3x05: Unknown

When Rand leaves the glass columns, he finds Mat hanging on the tree outside, and saves his life (we've gotten a few different pieces of foreshadowing about Mat being hanged, so I feel like it will happen at some point). Mat says he was just in Tanchico.

We catch up with Perrin in the Two Rivers, with him learning to move past his grief as he gets to know Faile.

Because we've already done Cold Rocks Hold, this means that Rand & co can go straight to Alcair Dal at this point.

Aviendha and Rand bond over their lives being dictated by being able to use the One Power and not having any choices about their future.

On the way to Alcair Dal, we meet the traders, who are hiding Lanfear and Asmodean in their ranks, and Lanfear sees that Rand is getting closer to Aviendha and Does Not Approve.

Nynaeve and Elayne worry about where Mat has disappeared to and experiment with the dream ter'angreal that they recently discovered in the museum (might only be one: the twisted stone ring, so that channeling isn't needed for it), and run into Birgitte in the dream. She gives them a warning but they realize that this is the same place that Egwene was talking about in 3x01 and are excited that they might be able to communicate with her.

3x06: Unknown

Another journey into TAR for Nynaeve (maybe a successful contact with Egwene?), and she encounters Birgitte again, but Moghedien too, and this leads to Birgitte getting ripped out of TAR and bonded by Elayne to save her life.

Moiraine tells Rand that he needs to go to Tear, to fulfill more of the prophecies, but Rand is resistant.

The Two Rivers ramps up for the battle.

This would also be a good spot for the coup, imo.

3x07: Goldeneyes

The Battle of the Two Rivers. Potentially Perrin's focus episode as well, as he comes into his own as a leader. I think that it would be good to push any confirmed Perrin/Faile romance forward into the future, so they will still just have some vibes for now.

We get some pieces moving into place for the other storylines: Rand arrives at Alcair Dal; Nynaeve and Elayne make plans to return to the museum.

3x08: He Who Comes With The Dawn

Desperate to get through to Rand and worrying that he is focusing on the Aiel instead of being the Dragon Reborn, Moiraine went back to Rhuidean to try to use the doorway, as when Mat talked about his experiences there, she recognized what he was talking about and wants answers of her own.

Rand announces himself at Alcair Dal, drawing the attention of Lanfear, who makes her pitch to him that We Could Rule Together, worrying that she's losing her hold over him after seeing him getting closer to Aviendha. She tells him about Asmodean and about him potentially teaching Rand so that he can reach his potential.

Inside the doorway, Moiraine gets answers that she doesn't like about Rand and Lanfear (sort of merging her going into the doorway in Tear with her going into the silver rings).

On the Tanchico side of things, we have our big Tanchico encounter between Nynaeve and Moghedien, which results in Nynaeve breaking her block. Nynaeve and Elayne escape Tanchico on a Sea Folk ship, heading towards Tear, potentially bringing Min & Thom along with them.

After talking with Lanfear, Rand is let out of his 'bubble' at Alcair Dal as Couladin declares that HE is the Car'a'carn and he will prove it by leading the Aiel to conquer the wetlands (setting up s4 to be a combo of TFoH/LoC, with a hint of TDR with the destination being Tear instead of Cairhien). Rand realizes that the fake dragons on Couladin's arms were put there by Asmodean and goes after him -- Asmodean Skims back to Rhuidean and he and Rand battle, and Lanfear arrives, puts the block on Asmodean and offers him up as a teacher to Rand. Moiraine takes advantage of Lanfear's focus on Rand to yeet both of them into the doorway while channeling, based on the knowledge that she learned inside, melting the doorway. We see in the Tanchico storyline that the other doorway melts at the same time, leaving them no exit.

And I agree with @markantonys that possibly the most effective stinger would be the reveal that Tuon is the DotNM, but if there is no Tuon in this season, we could have it be a Forsaken (Sammael) setting up shop in Tear, to set the scene for the upcoming season.

It is a lot more cliffhanger-y than our previous season finales and I'm sure that my thoughts on it will change as we get closer and learn more spoilers, but that is my wild speculation for this specific week!

#wot #wheel of time #wot on prime #wot book spoilers #the fires of heaven #wot speculation #wot s3 speculation

122 notes · View notes

iviarelleblr · 3 months

Text

Genuinely fascinated at the showrunners of live-action ATLA misunderstanding the purpose of a character arc so badly. Like, I don't live in that fandom, I'm not super emotionally invested, but it feels rather on the same level as the guys who made Game of Thrones saying "themes are for 8th grade book reports" and Disney trying to shoehorn extra modern feminism into the Beauty and the Beast live action adaptation. In this case, characters need arcs, and sometimes that means a good character does bad things at first so they can learn to do better, because it's REALLY IMPORTANT ACTUALLY that kids get to internalize that doing bad things now doesn't mean you're bad forever.

Meanwhile we've got the Wheel of Time adaptation over here saying "The first books were written with only a loose outline of the series arc and for an audience more than a generation removed from today's sensibilities. We're going to tighten up the story structure, avoid repeating some character beats to death the way the books did, and generally make this a smoother journey than the books are, as well as shorter, but still with all the satisfaction of an arc trajectory well executed. Also make it queerer." Like, legitimately, I'm in Discords with people who Know Their Shit, and even the costume department read the brief and had a professional costumer predicting book 14 plot points just from embroidery on an outfit and a certain camera-cut in episode 1x02. In season 2, some other authors were analyzing the story beats and showing us in full-spoiler channels exactly how the changes being made are setting up the endgame in some ways better than the original author was equipped to when he thought the story was going slightly different places.

Good adaptations are possible, but you need someone at the helm who understands why a story is doing what it's doing. Rafe Judkins's team is doing incredible work on WOT but he also hired a book consultant, who read the series dozens of times, and can help balance the needs of the original story against the needs of the television medium. You can't adapt a story unless you understand the story, and it seems like the ATLA people are doing a lot of the same things that Disney's live action adaptations of their former animated hits have been doing: adapting the superficial layer of the story without understanding its underpinnings and why those resonated so much with audiences.

#atla #avatar the last airbender #wheel of time #wheel of time on prime #i know i'm risking Being Perceived and getting attention #by saying and tagging anything on a hot button topic #but i can't help wanting to make this comparison #and also i really want literally everyone who can to try the wot show #it's not gonna hit with everyone and i know that but it's SO GOOD #so much better than we had any right to hope it might be #murder milfs and sad wet cat boys galore

50 notes · View notes

asongofstarkandtargaryen · 10 months

Text

Interacting with wot fandom for years through various platforms made me notice a pattern: lot of fans base their opinion on wondergirls on Mat’s views. I get it, he’s a fan favourite character (he’s my favourite,too) but he’s far from being unbiased. Often, he’s an unreliable narrator - something he has in common with various other characters.

I wanted to focus on Mat’s first view on Elayne. The first time he mentions her in his point of view, his description of her does her no favors:

She’s a pretty one, even if she does have her nose in the air half the time.

According to Mat, Elayne is a pretty, arrogant girl. A typical snob princess someone could say - hardly the first royal fictional or real person who looks down on those who belong in an inferior class.

And yet when he encounters her brothers and he recalls his interaction with Elayne, we get a totally different picture:

He wondered if he was supposed to call Gawyn“my Lord” or something of the sort. He had refused to call Elayne “my Lady”—not that she had demanded it, actually—and he decided he would not do her brother better.

Elayne - who is arrogant according to Mat- has no problem with him talking to her casually without referring her with her title. Despite the fact that growing up as a princess she is used to people referring her with honorfics basically her whole life.

Also, keep in mind that during that time Mat had barely interacted with Elayne. He met her at Falme and spend time with her - and the rest of the wondergirls- on their journey to Tar Valon. However, due to the dagger's influence he spend a large amount of the journey being ill and unconscious. They weren't friends at this point, and yet Elayne had no problem with that stranger boy - who is just a friend of a friend- to casually talk to her without honorfics. That indicates that she's the opposite of the way Mat describes her.

Unlike Mat, we have access to other information from books (like for example Elayne being very friendly from her first meeting to Egwene or her worrying over Mat's illness) that further prove that she isn't a self centered, pompous girl but a good natured, friendly and empathetic one.

It's s not the last time Mat misinterprets Elayne and/or her actions. So, I don't think we should treat his views as gospel truth.

#elayne trakand #mat cauthon #wheel of time #the wheel of time #wot book spoilers #the dragon reborn

147 notes · View notes

mass-convergence · 7 months

Text

I’ll be honest with you - in season 1 of WOT:

I didn’t exactly love what I’m calling the Main Character Squad (Rand, Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve). Like don’t get me wrong - I didn’t hate them. I just thought they were … idk … boring? And this may warrant a rewatch, I’ll admit I was not in the best place emotionally while watching the season. But I just felt like they were kind of flat with maybe the exception being Mat and Nynaeve who I was kinda like 👀 what’s going on. Mat had that whole corrupted by darkness thing going on with him and Nynaeve was just a fucking badass and seemed highly motivated to protect her friends from the get go. But idk Rand felt like he was just kinda …… there? Same with Egwene and Perrin.

(This is ending up turning into an essay so I’m gonna put shit below a cut)

They were cool characters and I obviously was rooting for them to get reunited and stuff but I was like “eh???” Until maybe the very end when things started falling in place and the plot became a lot more sticky (as my friend describes plots that suddenly have a lot of competing motivations all coming together)

So I think my main issue was with their writing rather then the characters themselves. I’m coming at this as a complete outsider to WoT - never read the books and even if I did, I believe an adaptation must be able to stand on its own. And what I think happened was that season 1 like *had* to catch everyone up on the lore of the world, why Moiraine was so hellbent on finding the Dragon, what the hell the Aes Sedai were, etc. etc.

And it may have somewhat put characterization on the backburner until the end when they were like “we caught you up to speed now here’s the plot”. I guess they felt passive, like the plot was just happening to them instead of them driving the plot. Like we got hints of stuff - I was confused about what was going on with Perrin, then really intrigued towards the end when the wolves attacked the White Cloaks camp. And then of course the whole Eye of the World thing and Ishamael being released and him cutting Moiraine off from the One Power.

But idk, most of that season just fell flat to me.

The second season however, whooooo boy did I get fucking invested in those crazy kids. I was like “why can’t Nynaeve deliberately channel? [Insert Spiderverse “can’t do it on command” meme here]”, “oh fuck how is Egwene going to get out of this and also fuck you Renna”, “Rand please don’t go crazy”, “Perrin is like spiritually connected to wolves??? I need to know more about how that is a thing”, “Mat I swear to god you better not be evil because I’m like rooting for you”.

And of course I was really invested in the supporting characters - like Moiraine’s journey, Liandrin’s betrayal, Lanfear’s … everything (god I love her).

And oh god was it almost empowering to see their arcs play out.

- Rand struggling with the fact that he is indeed the Dragon Reborn and that male channelers tend to go batshit and kill everyone they love.

- Perrin becoming more familiar with his wolf-powers (I forgot what they were called or if they even had a name I’m sorry) … and being caught between his humanity and his wolf side. RIP Hopper, I’m glad you were avenged almost immediately.

- Egwene first off like: struggling with the fact that Nynaeve was kind of distant (because Nynaeve was obviously dealing with her own issues) but sticking with her friend. And then getting fucking captured and enslaved and like thrown into one of the most disempowering positions one can get into… and she fucking still held her own and never gave in. God I think her arc is like my favorite one this season. Fuck you Renna I’m glad you fucking got what you deserved.

- Mat dealing with the aftermath of the dagger and just having this darkness inside of him. He had been pushed down and kicked all his life, people viewed him as a loser, and he had that attitude towards himself as well. I felt like a connection to him because yeah, that boy is just a touch depressed, and as someone who’s dealt with their own mental health issues and ADHD absolutely making me feel like I’m constantly failing everyone including myself …….. good lord did his arc make me feel some feelings. Like he took that darkness - namely the dagger - and he used it to fight his way out. And then he’s a fucking hero of the horn. That is unironically super fucking inspiring to me.

- Nynaeve not being able to channel on command, being almost afraid of the power she can wield (I think that’s the angle they’re going for at least - though it also does seem to be very attached to her emotions). Out of all the main character squad: I liked her the most in the first season. She was very much motivated to protect her friends. Like I do see her kind of as the mother figure of the group (and not in a derisive way - like she will absolutely fuck a person up if they hurt her friends as we saw in season 2 with that sul’dam), the “heart” in the five man band. Like *almost* like Katara in a way and I really loved Katara so there you go.

- honorable mention to Moiraine because she thought that she had to handle this shit on her own. She had to figure out what Ishamael and the Dark One were planning while protecting Rand and also dealing with the aftershocks of her being cut off from the One Power. Something that Verin very much analogized to being assaulted or raped. And Moiraine just kept trucking, carrying the burden of what she felt like her own responsibilities like she carried those fucking buckets up the hill. The season was her realizing she could rely on others and she didn’t have to be as closed off as she was being. And oh my god once she got the One Power back she (a woman who was already plenty fucking badass during this entire season) like went to fucking S-tier levels of badass. God I fucking love her.

Basically: I’m saying that I loved season 2 very very much and I’m now rooting for these crazy kids to fuck shit up and save the world.

Also I love every single woman in this show who’s not Renna or the Seanchan because fuck those slavery loving assholes.

#I could say a shit ton more but I have like errands to run today #so anyway … yeah #Wheel of Time on Prime #wot season 2 #wot season 2 spoilers #character analysis??? I guess???#anyway rooting for these crazy kids now #rand al'thor #nynaeve al'meara #egwene al'vere #Perrin #mat cauthon #moiraine damodred

38 notes · View notes

mykindofgeeky · 1 year

Text

An Exhausting Review of The Wheel of Time

Apologies for the delay. Unfortunately round 2 of @fantasybooktournament ended right before my work week. On top of that Tears of the Kingdom and Gideon the Ninth have been consuming many of my waking hours outside of work. At this moment I am taking a break from both of my current obsessions to try and organize my thoughts about WoT. I will be providing a spoiler free TLDR followed by a more in depth review of the first four books.

SPOILER FREE TLDR:

The Good:

The Wheel of Time is an exceptionally well written high fantasy epic.

It utilizes its main cast well and most of them have satisfying narrative arcs.

The magic is unique and well thought out.

The women of the cast share just as many interesting personalities and skills as the men.

The series plays a lot with gender roles directly related to the magic system.

It has a lot to say about destiny and the heroes journey.

Several interesting mentor figures that all have just as many negative traits as positive ones.

A focus on one character's PTSD that is very believable and taken seriously by both the narrative and the characters around them.

A beautiful ending that still makes me cry when I think about it.

Brandon Sanderson

The Bad:

There are several villains that are sexual predators utilizing brainwashing, violence, and grooming to get their way. Jordan doesn't write sex scenes so none of the acts are recorded in the books but they are heavily implied.

There is exactly one trans woman character and she is a villain. She is also a sexual predator.

There is slavery in this series. It is done by one of the antagonist factions but it is not really resolved by the end of the series.

EXTREMELY LONG.

The insane amount of characters is a lot to keep track of. That said you don't NEED to know every character by name.

Major low point in the series that can be difficult to read due to a dramatic shift in narrative pacing. This starts in Book 5.

While the women are interesting they were still written by an old white guy. A lot of the "strong female characters" we have are described as overbearing, conniving, and arrogant.

The romance is often forced and the end of the series appears to be obsessed with pairing up all the characters without lovers.

Many of the characters have repeating physical habits as well as repeating experiences. Jordan will describe these things the same way over and over. There's a lot of fingering of blades, knuckling mustaches, yanking of braids, and adjusting of shawls.

Jordan clearly takes a lot of inspiration from Eastern faiths and cultures in both his magic system and the religion of the setting. He doesn't represent these things particularly well and it feels very Orientalist to me.

Brandon Sanderson

SPOILERS UNDER THE CUT

The Wheel of Time as a series is the absolute height of high fantasy epics in my opinion. It represents this sub-genre very well with nearly every trope of in the high fantasy tool box being utilized. That said it also carries many of the perceived negative aspects of the genre.

When I said this series was "very long" it is very much an understatement. The main series of books tops out at 4.4 MILLION words spread over 14 novels and 1 novella. It also has hundreds of characters with well over a hundred receiving a POV throughout the books. Yes that's right, this series has multiple characters sharing their perspectives.

The first three books I'm going to call "What if Robert Jordan wrote The Lord of the Rings?" These books are The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, and The Dragon Reborn. Are these books direct rip offs of LotR? No absolutely not, but they do share a lot of the same structure. The fourth book The Shadow Rising is when things really get spicy.

***

The Eye of the World's primary purpose is to introduce important characters, set the narrative pacing of the series, and establish the setting.

It follows a group of youngsters from the village of Emond's Field; Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve. Several strangers come into the village for the Spring festival, Moiraine the Aes Sedai, Lan the Warder, and Thom the Gleeman. These characters serve as guides and mentors in the outside world later on. Shortly after this they are forced into a world of adventure after evil creatures called Trollocs attack their home.

The Eye of the World is a great opening to the series. It invites you into the setting and holds your hand through the first day before plunging you into the first night. The juxtaposition between the warm and gentle opening day and the horrifically violent night afterwards is a perfect synopsis of the two opposing forces of Light and Darkness.

It later lays the groundwork for the main characters' arcs that they will go through in the series while leaving room for doubt on if they will make it at all. There is also tons of foreshadowing not only within the book but also for the series as a whole. These are fun to piece together on a first read and even more fun to find on rereads.

The combat scenes are tense and you can really feel the Emond's Fielders panic contrasted with the wizened mentors calm. The social aspects of how the Aes Sedai fit into the world also provides plenty of tension. One of the main antagonistic forces in the series is introduced early on in Perrin and Egwene's travels and they are portrayed beautifully as the cruel bastards they are.

The ending is a little confusing, especially on a first read. Unfortunately Jordan seemed to have a bit of trouble writing around wanting the main antagonist to be in the book and for the main characters to think they've won in the end. It is a short and weird ending but most of the other books get much better endings.

***

The Great Hunt's job is to flesh out established villains and introduce new ones, flesh out some of the major factions, and provide more POVs on these weird ass situations. It primarily focuses on two storylines: "The Boys' No Good, Very Bad Day? Month? Year???" and "Little Witch Academia: Spy Game."

The Boys (Rand, Mat, and Perrin) are chasing down thieves who stole an important plot device called the Horn of Valere. They need this back because there is a concern that the horn could be used by the forces of evil to summon ghost heroes to fight for them. In addition they stole Mat's fucking drugs (an evil ass dagger from the first book) and now he's in withdrawal. The dagger is needed to break Mat's reliance on it.

The Girls (Egwene and Nynaeve; and new friends; Elayne and Min) are learning magic at the White Tower, home of the Aes Sedai. Egwene and Elayne are "Novices" together while Nynaeve has been allowed to become "Accepted" due to her being a bad bitch. Min is basically in a comfy jail cell and bored because she's not a witch. As they are learning magic they have been accidentally recruited into finding secret "Dark Friends" (followers of the main antagonist the Dark One) amongst the Aes Sedai.

Once again The Great Hunt does its job well. We get to learn much more about the world from several POVs. The White Tower is filled with political intrigue. The factions that have been introduced so far get a lot more development and the new ones are interesting. We see an introduction of several significant bad guys including the Seanchan who are really interesting.

At this point we have had a lot of growth with our main cast. They are still scared of conflict but they know how to defend themselves. They become more comfortable with the outside world some willingly some unwillingly. The mentor characters are starting to step away from being mentors which allows them to be more independent characters in their own right. That tenseness from the first book never really goes away. This book has a lot of twists that will have you on the edge of your seat.

The ending is far more comprehensible in The Great Hunt than The Eye of the World. It is extremely epic with an incredible three-way struggle that is referenced throughout the rest of the series.

***

The Dragon Reborn is our epic conclusion to Jordan's Lord of the Rings. Its job is to finish a lot of what was started, and develop our main cast further. It follows four groups of our cast to the city of Tear where The Dragon is to be Reborn: "The Al'Thor Identity (Crisis)," "Nanny Damodred: Manhunt," "Little Witch Academia: Spy Game pt. 2," and "The Guilt Trip."

Rand has been proclaimed the Dragon Reborn by Moiraine after the events of the second book. Rand is not a fan of this. He is so not a fan of it that he decides to try and speedrun this whole "Chosen One" thing. Of he skips to Tear by himself where he is supposed to claim a special sword that proves he's the Dragon Reborn. Reality literally bends around him on his way leaving a pretty clear path to follow.

Moiraine is not a fan of Rand going off leash and needs to chase him down. She takes Lan (who is basically glued to her ass anyway), Loial the Ogier (elves but thicc), and Perrin. He's pretty easy to follow since there's a Rand shaped hole left behind everywhere he goes. On the way Perrin makes two new friends; Gual the Aiel, and Faile (who are now both glued to Perrin's ass).

Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are hunting more dark friend Aes Sedai after there was a theft and breakout of several of them from the White Tower. These dark friends stole several items of power and they must be retrieved. The girls are tracking them down disguised as Aes Sedai which is leading them to Tear unbeknownst to Rand and Moiraine.

Mat has been brought to the White Tower to be healed and separated from the dagger. In addition it is revealed that Mat is now connected to the Horn of Valere due to the events of the second book making him a very valuable asset to the White Tower. Mat nopes the fuck outta that and manages to escape after a lucky run of dicing and finding his old mentor Thom the Gleeman. After traveling to Caemlyn to deliver a letter, Mat becomes aware of a plot to murder Elayne. He knows that she's heading for Tear and decides to go after her.

Overall this is my favorite book of the first three. Its a more complicated plot but its easy enough to follow and every time the POV switches you get excited to learn more about that part of the story. This is the beginning of Rand's "madness" which is a side effect of being the Dragon Reborn as well as being a male witch and I enjoy how its written. You really feel for Rand as he acts like a cornered animal with nothing to lose. Perrin's interactions with his two new companions are fun with Gual being a fast friend who gives good advice and Faile being a compelling romantic interest with an acid tongue. I really enjoy how Perrin really appreciates Faile's beauty over time as he gets to know her. That said they kinda fall for each other really fast out of nowhere. Although they are probably one of the more interesting couples in the series. The girls have a fun roadtrip down to Tear with lots of new characters introduced. They aren't as prominent in this book but once they get to Tear they get to do a lot of cool shit. Mat's roadtrip with Thom is a fun reflection of their trip together in the first book with a far more competent Mat and a Thom who sees Mat as more of a man. We also get to see Mat's intelligence shine in this book which is great because he was more of a side character in the first two books.

The ending is a chaotic mess but in a fun way. All of these characters are smashing into each other by coincidence and foiling each others plans, rescuing each other from danger, and of course getting into arguments. There isn't really a big antagonist in this ending but it doesn't detract from the book at all.

***

OK NOW WE ARE GETTING SPICY! This is where the series really starts to shine bright!

The Shadow Rising is widely considered to be one of the best novels in the whole series. Personally it is my favorite fantasy novel hands down! The Shadow Rising is trying to do many things here but primarily it is: expanding the scope of the setting, circling back to previous plot points/details, increasing our main cast's influence on the world.

The Shadow Rising is the longest book for a reason. It is covering many, many storylines at the same time but I'm going to try and narrow it down. Primarily I'm going to focus on four groups: "Al'Thor of the Three-Fold Land," "Back to the Shire," "Little Witch Academia: Spy Game pt.3," and "How to Stage a Coup: Paint It Red."

Rand has been reading. This is a mistake. He decides that he must go to the Aiel Waste in order to become their chosen one, the Car'a'carn, The Chief of Chiefs. He is joined by Mat, Egwene, Moiraine, and his Aiel allies. During their journeys they are forced to discover more about themselves. Egwene goes to desert witch bootcamp. Mat gets a fancy spear and a new hat. Honestly, everything is coming up Al'Thor so far.

Perrin is worried about Emond's Field and decides to go back home and make sure everything is ok. He is joined by Gaul, Loial, Faile, and two additional Aiel Bain and Chiad who have taken a liking to Faile. They show up to the Two Rivers being invaded by Trollocs and the White Cloaks (who are chasing Perrin). Perrin and friends rally the Two Rivers to fight against both invaders.

Nynaeve, Elayne, Thom, and a new friend from the last book Juilin are still trying to smoke out the dark friend Aes Sedai. They track the traitors to Tanchico and begin searching the city. They end up finding more than they bargained for.

Min is continuing to be an endlessly annoyed guest of the White Tower. She is being used as a spy by the Amyrlin Seat (head of the White Tower) but she soon finds herself in a dangerous situation. Elaida the Red Sister is attempting a coup to claim the Amyrlin Seat for herself. Min manages to fine Siuan (the original Amyrlin) and Leane (her right hand woman) but they are both powerless and can no longer do magic. As they are escaping they also collect the dangerous criminal and False Dragon, Logain.

This is what we were waiting for. This is the true first chapter of the series. Everything up to know has been a prologue in my mind. We get serious character development, expansion of the setting, violence, romance, and so much more magic. If you want to read this series but don't think you'll finish it I BEG OF YOU read to this book. The Aiel are so goddamn cool and their culture is really interesting. The magic fights are getting more intense with them being narrated almost like sword fights. The politics within the White Tower and the Two Rivers is really cool. The drama in the Two Rivers with Perrin is so intense! I just can't praise this book enough.

I think I have to leave it there this is already too damn long. I really hope you give this series a chance and see if it is for you. Happy reading everyone!

“You can never know everything, and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyways.” - The Eye of the World

#the wheel of time #wheel of time #book review #wot book spoilers #fantasybooktournament

51 notes · View notes

onaperduamedee · 11 months

Text

I don't know if it's show bias, but I struggle to understand the reading of Moiraine as someone who is so driven by her mission that she doesn't care.

From the get-go, she flees the White Tower for fear of ending up Queen of Cairhien and as cruel a leader as the rulers in her family, although it would have meant control and power;

Getting knocked down and unable to channel, she stabs a former teacher to stop her from killing innocents who have little to do with her mission;

She rushes to the Blight to bond Lan and keep him from basically killing himself, even if again it is a gamble, and later on, the bond transfer is about saving him, albeit cruelly;

She uses her body as a shield to hold off a Forsaken in order to help Rand, sustaining serious injuries in the fight, although her sacrifice is mostly useless considering how overpowered she is;

Many times, she heals villagers, soldiers, Aiel, wolves, sometimes until she is on the brink of passing out;

She fights Shadowspawns in Tear, in the Waste just as bravely as Lan, despite not being battle Ajah and often being surrounded by Aiel who can do the job by themselves;

She tackles Lanfear, toppling with her inside a collapsing ter'angreal, effectively dooming herself and cutting herself from the narrative, to help Rand, Egwene and Aviendha.

Obviously, you could argue that each of these actions would bring her an advantage and in acting so, she was only playing her part in the pattern, without a care for the people she was helping, but that's such an ungenerous reading of the character given what the text provides.

Her mindset is utilitarian and pragmatic, but to see her ever-present doubts, her growing despair and raging hope in Rand and still interpret her as uncaring is mind-boggling to me.

Her whole speech in TSR regarding "People [fighting] for you who do not know it, any more than you know them" tells of someone who believes saving the world will require a lot of collaboration and awareness of each other, not merely machinations and control.

She is a hard woman, but uncaring she is not.

#Wot book spoilers #moiraine damodred #The wheel of time #Remblai #Wot book journey #Saw someone commenting they don't think Moiraine really cared whether Lan lived or die #Look...#I think some people are wilfully misreading the text because if women are obviously evil it justifies their treatment by other characters #They're not #They are complex characters and you can point out a lot of flaws in Moiraine #From the way she tends to treat people as tools/objects to her distrust and secrecy #But to say she doesn't care about the people around her makes me growl #I've seen fans argue that her telling she would kill the boys before they turned to the Dark means she doesn't care #What it says about her is that turning to the Dark is worse than death to her #(which is pretty much Lan's motto)#What it says is that Moiraine will always do the maths and save the most people possible #And if saving more people means killing the Dragon Reborn if they turn to the Dark she will do it #What it doesn't say is that she doesn't care #I already noticed there's a tendency in fandom to be far more generous in interpretation toward male characters #Especially when they share narratives and themes #Tepid take but her mentality is the same as Lan's #But the story spends more time on her so we get more nuance while Lan is afforded a lot more Doylist leeway

157 notes · View notes

markantonys · 7 months

Text

the way people go "well, if RAND needs his friends to succeed, then how come the same doesn't apply to egwene, how come she was able to free herself?" as if it's utterly incomprehensible that two different characters might be undergoing two different arcs/learning two different lessons.

rand spent the whole season isolating himself, so he needed a climactic moment of seeing that he's stronger when his friends are supporting him.

egwene spent the whole season feeling inferior/incapable/not good enough and then being enslaved and controlled, and of having other people dictate to her how powerful she is or isn't, so she needed a climactic moment of taking back her autonomy and understanding her own power on her own terms.

this isn't to say that the book version where rand fights ishy alone and egwene is rescued by nynaeve and elayne is bad. it also isn't to say that rand and egwene didn't have many thematic parallels in their journeys this season (egwene also deals with themes of isolation, and rand with themes of power & control). but in my opinion, the Cores of their series-long arcs were different enough that there's nothing at all inconsistent or thematically wonky about them getting two different narrative treatments in the finale.

(also, as others have pointed out, TGH is a really meaty book for egwene but she has relatively little to do in TSR, whereas rand is kind of slowburning in the first 3 books but his arc kicks into high gear in TSR, so it makes total sense to give egwene the biggest moments of the s2 finale because she'll take more of a backseat in s3 while rand comes to greater prominence.)

#like sure i can understand one's gut reaction being 'but why doesn't the Power Of Friendship theme apply to egwene's escape?!'#but if you actually sit down and think about the fact that they're 2 different characters who've been on 2 different journeys this season #it does make sense that their Climactic Moments are thematically different #rand al'thor #egwene al'vere #wot #wot on prime #the wheel of time #wot show spoilers #wot book spoilers #(just vague ones)

134 notes · View notes

liptonrm · 1 year

Text

I finished re-reading The Great Hunt a couple months ago and been meaning to write up some reactions.

I don't think I've re-read this book as a whole in 20+ years and there are definitely bits that I did not remember very clearly at all.

The parts I did re-read pretty regularly (Nynaeve and Egwene's lessons with Siuan, Nynaeve's Accepted test, the "flicker flicker" sequence) still really hold up.

This might be the weirdest of RJ's books, and that's not a bad thing. He was still settling into his style for the series and some things were delightfully weird. Only a physicist would send a chunk of his protagonists (and one secret antagonist) on a journey through a pocket dimension.

I also really liked the scene where Rand was stuck in a time loop in the abandoned village. It was chilling and atmospheric and gave some nice depth to Rand's early fears of going mad and terror re: channeling.

When I first read the book I definitely skimmed over all of the bits with the Whitecloaks. Geofram Bornhald might be remembered as a "good" Whitecloak but he's still a terrible person. He's all, oh, I hate how the Questioners torture all of these people, but I'm not going to do anything about it except maybe privately wring my hands a little bit.

Like, cool story, bro. You died doing the right thing. Shame about all of those war crimes and how you probably think the damane deserved what they got.

Speaking of damane, I am not looking forward to the eventual flattening and softening of the Seanchan. Their society is fucked up in interesting ways! But it's still super-fucked up. If you're going to do a story about the enemy of your enemy being your reluctant ally, you can't just handwave all of the atrocities. Make the characters grapple with that shit!

But that's a future problem that I'm sure I'll have many, many thoughts about.

In a lot of ways, this was RJ's most distinct and transitional book. He pulls in a soupcon of the old Tolkien pastiche for about a chapter, but the rest is at times weird and wonderful, at times thrilling, and at times deeply, deeply boring. I'm glad I revisited it and I'll be super-interested to see what pieces R2J2 & Co pull out for Wot season two.

#wheel of time #wot book spoilers

21 notes · View notes

shinylitwick94 · 7 months

Text

WoT S2 thoughts from a rather casual book reader:

SPOILERS ABOUND

- Overall massive, MASSIVE, improvement over S1 on most fronts;

- The introduction of Lanfear especially really helps give the show an edge it was missing and I love that we are getting the other Forsaken too;

- We get a lot more on the world and the magic and how it works and the EF5 are set to take off on their respective journeys;

- It just looks better too;

- There are definitely some decisions that are controversial with book readers, but for the most part I think they are justified in the logic of the characters as they are in the show, which by this point has diverged quite significantly from the books anyway;

On the finale specifically:

Liked:

- Forsaken office drama remains spicy and the best, loved the Ishy and Lanfear scenes;

- Moghedien!!!!! So happy we get to introduce unhinged spider lady, and in the best way too, very much looking forward to what they do with her in S3;

- Mat with spear-dagger thing - it was cool! And this is coming from someone who isn't really a Mat fan. Although personally I felt the Heroes of the Horn themselves were a little bit clunky;

- Egwene and Renna - in terms of buildup-delivery for the EF5 by far the one that worked best;

-Whitecloaks - i did like how blatantly they leaned into the Crusader vibes here, and I like how they did the thing with Perrin as well;

Not super happy with:

- Ishy fight - I do agree with the criticism that we needed more of Rand in this moment and we did not get it (although unlike many I don't think this makes it WAAH WAAAH THE WORST SHOW EVER) - Rand got shafted here and at this stage this is a real problem;

- Ishy fight part deux - it also just looks kind of clunky? The way Rand walks up and stabs him is weirdly anticlimactic, they could still have done that with more oomph

- Nyneave & Elayne - also in the anticlimactic category - felt like we got a whole lot of buildup for these two this season and in the end they did...not much, really, especially Nyneave who kind of just stood and stared all episode

So yeah other than those weirdly anticlimactic last five minutes I thought it was pretty good. Very much looking forward to S3.

#wot show spoilers #wheel of time

7 notes · View notes

oathwilled · 2 months

Text

okay but like can you imagine, super early on in the journey, paerin finds this silly action-adventure type book, and he's like whatever i never read but he takes it back to camp anyway and slowly reads through it but it's like book 1 of say, like, 5

and he slowly finds more of them but is missing the last one and by the time they get to baldur's gate he's absolutely determined about finding this damn book and they get to the library and they have all of them but that one and he's like ArE yoU FUCKING kiDDING and everyone's like ?? and he's just like wot?

and then everything goes through the endgame etc and you get to the epilogue and someone's found the damn book for him during their epilogue meetup 🥹

#;; & headcanons.#( ... should i be sleeping #probably )

5 notes · View notes

butterflydm · 13 days

Text

The Queen of Attolia (plus some WoT comparisons)

Haha, it's been a few months but I got my chance to read the next book in the Queen's Thief series and it was so good! I am going to have two sections in this review -- my overall thoughts and then some specific thoughts that are mostly for @markantonys due to the series being her recommendation and I have a lot of thoughts about the comparisons between the Queen of Attolia x Eugenides and Mat Cauthon x Fortuona, because you can really do a point by point comparison, though I don't think it was intentional -- I think that Megan Whalen Turner and Robert Jordan were both going for the same idea but Turner was, imo, wildly more successful than Jordan at it.

But first, thoughts that don't particularly relate to The Wheel of Time:

We open with a tense cat and mouse chase between The Thief and the Queen's guardmen and that is really the heart of this book when it comes down to it -- a cat and mouse game between two extremely complicated people, and how they have to navigate in the world that they share.

Turner is really good at writing these fun action scenes where you're very much in the PoV of the character.

The (apparent) foundation that is laid here (that later gets overturned because Gen got to me again and he was once again acting on personal information that he kept from me for the majority of the book, lol, love him for it) - is very much beginning as enemies who have respect for each other's skills. At this point in the book, I knew that they would end up married due to spoilers and I know that it's considered a good romance, so I was really looking forward to seeing the journey, especially since I did get spoiled about the huge upcoming traumatic event.

But we start from this strong narrative place where they are aware of each other and have respect for each other but they belong to two separate counties that have some political tensions and they are both important parts of those countries and can't set that aside.

Because of how bold Gen is, Attolia has been backed into a corner by his actions and we actually see this affirmed by Gen's cousin (the Queen of Eddis) and her thoughts on the matter -- she is aware that Gen going into Attolia's country to spy on her is a dangerous thing for him to do.

And then the cutting off of his hand. This is brutal, and it feels brutal, and then we also get these hints of Attolia's reaction afterwards (that we get into more later) but especially her reaction when he begs her not to hurt him anymore and you can really see her feel the impact of what she did. She doesn't allow herself to show her remorse but even this early on, we're getting hints of it as readers.

Then when Gen goes home, we actually see that the Queen of Eddis also maintains a mask in public, just like Attolia does, so we see another hint here that Gen understands that kind of masking. Eddis looks just as cold and impenetrable to Attolia's guards who return Gen to her, as Attolia looks to everyone else.

I really appreciated how long the recovery time was after the loss of Gen's hand and how much time we spent with him to feel him get used to the changes (and how economically Turner is able to pass that time). We get these tiny looks at Attolia as well, and her difficultly sleeping at night, which we expand on later.

Then we get the return of the Magus from Sounis! It was really nice to see him again, dropping in to visit Gen, but he's also here to give us that continuation of the division between personal and political -- as a person who genuinely likes Gen, the Magus was upset about what Attolia did to him, but as the advisor to the king of Sounis, he knew that they would be able to use Eddis's reaction to Attolia's act on the political stage.

But what a way to learn that the two countries are at war!

It takes some time for Gen to really believe that Eddis went to war over him, and we see him processing that over the course of the book as well, and they talk about it more. I do think that Gen does not always realize how deeply other people care about him.

Turner really is so good at giving us these pieces of information that reframe the earlier story -- now we know that during all those snippets of Attolia that we had earlier, she was also dealing with realizing that her actions with Gen led to the war that she's currently embroiled in.

The progression of the war was really well done (again, Turner is very economical with her narrative here), with what details she chooses to focus in on, and we see that Gen, even though he has gained more of an ability to have that cold and impassive mask like Attolia has, still does things like make sure that no one is on the ships that he's destroying, because he doesn't like getting people killed.

Turner also does a really good job showing how destabilizing the war is to all three countries involved, and how the war is hurting everything.

We take a little mythology story break here in the narrative, which was a fun story about love and choice, both of which are very relevant. This story definitely does end up applying pretty heavily to Gen and Attolia in the themes, and I like the style that Turner tells these stories.

I love how perceptive Gen is once he's been apprised of the situation and we get to see the thought process that leads to him blaming the emperor's ambassador more for the loss of his hand than he does Attolia herself, because he sees that ambassador understood that seeing Gen maimed and returned to Eddis would be more like to spark a war than just killing him would, and a war is exactly what he needs in order to try to justify getting his troops onto Attolia's land. All the politics here are pretty complex but I feel like the book does a good job explaining the reasoning.

And this is also the point where it's really confirmed that Attolia knows that the ambassador is underestimating her, and that she also understands a lot of the things that he thinks that he's pulling over on her. But because of the fragile position that she's in, she needs to entertain the ambassador's advice and his attempts to sidle in on her country.

Quote about Gen: "It was like him that if he had to have a thing, to have the fanciest thing of its kind."

I really like all this about the cost of war; the price of war; and why this outside party has been trying to urge war on the three countries.

We also get Eddis admitting to Gen that she thinks that she could have possibly controlled herself and not started a war if he had only been killed, rather than treated in a way that she finds so insulting, and that it made her so angry that she made a choice that had now brought a lot of damage to their own country that she wishes could be avoided. And Gen can see, basically, that the ambassador of Medes is the one who put both Eddis and Attolia in this trap, and he was used as the tool to start this war.

We really move into Attolia's PoV and we get the story of the broken amphora (she thought about it when she saw Gen after she'd had his hand cut off) -- it was, essentially, the moment that marked when her life changed and she couldn't be a young girl anymore.

This really is a heartbreaking story -- how after her brothers died and she was the heir, her father essentially sold her off to be married, and her fiance was actively plotting against her father and how to suck her country dry for his own benefit after they were married. And how she kept herself quiet and small and just listened, but then poisoned him at their wedding feast, also having her captain of the guard kill the next man who tried to force her to marry him. We also see here that she only trusts loyalty that she can buy in gold (because every other kind of loyalty failed her).

Then we finally get the big reunion! This scene is so tense, with both Attolia and Gen wearing these cold masks (we later realize that Gen has pretty much directly modeled his mask on Attolia's) and we get this private negotiation that is only for the two of them. And this moment when it is literally just them, together on a boat, with no one else to interrupt them... just exquisitely done.

It's been implied before, but this is where we get our confirmation that Attolia has been just as haunted by Gen this entire book as he's been haunted by her. They've been separated for most of the book but constantly haunted by each other. I gotta share the quote:

"He was too young to have bones that ached. No matter what he thought of himself, he was hardly more than a boy. A boy without one hand. She reached up to push the wet hair out of her face, wondering when she had sunk so low that she had begun torturing boys. It was a question she had asked herself night after night, lying awake in her bed or sitting in a chair by the window watching the stars slowly move across the sky."

We've been seeing her do those things the entire book, but this is the first moment when we're told what she was thinking about in those moments.

We also get our Big Revelation here that Gen has had feelings for Attolia since before the events of The Thief! How does he hide these things from us so well! Gen! We learn here (and we get even more detail later) that he's been feeling drawn to her for literal years. That part of the reason that he made those trips that she thought were mockery was because he wanted to be close to her and get a look at her and see if she really was the monster that their spies reported that she was, or if she was just a woman who was being forced to make difficult, maybe impossible choices.

And then we get our story reversal where Attolia gets 'rescued' by the ambassador and his people, and we get to see how she behaves in these circumstances where she doesn't believe that she can trust Gen (sure, he said he loves her, but she cut his hand off! And he's a known liar! how can she trust him?) vs this dude that she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that she absolutely cannot trust.

The moment when she tells her handmaidens not to put on her golden bee earrings, I knew exactly what she'd done, especially when we got Gen's reaction. The writing doesn't have to tell us in the moment what's occurring (that she put on the earrings that he left for her one time and that she said she would only wear if she'd decided to marry him) for us to know, and I love that. This coded sign that only he will understand.

It's the most unique and fascinating marriage proposal I've ever read. Well done. Haha, and I did guess that the gray-haired man that he fought so well with was his father. <3

Love the moment when we see him process that marrying the Queen of Attolia is going to mean... that he'll be the King of Attolia. He just wanted to marry her because he liked her! <3 <3

And everything after that was just so delightful. Working together for the double-cross and then the process of Eddis and Attolia working out the treaty and Eddis trying to convince Gen that they can have the treaty without the marriage, and his rejection of that, and then essentially testing Attolia with that offer as well.

I also really like one of the moments when Attolia realizes that she can trust Gen, which is when Eddis tells her that of course Gen also lies to her. Constantly. And I feel like that reframed a lot of her interactions with Gen for Attolia. Realizing that Gen wasn't being maliciously deceitful towards her; he's just Like That With Everyone. Plus, I can't forget the moment when, after the battle is won, Attolia and Eddis return to where Gen is being held and Attolia believes for a moment that he's been poisoned as a parting shot by the Medes ambassador and we can literally watch as her heart completely shatters and she is completely undone and devastated in her head and even shaken where people can see her. It's beautifully written.

And we get the moment with the gods (who are very real in this series but very carefully choose how they interfere) and it's just as well done as it was in the first book. The windows in the palace shattering as the goddess responds to Gen's sacrifice! And basically laying out to him that his suffering was required to reach this ending and would he trade it back if he could -- if it meant that Attolia would have been forced to make that deal with the Medes ambassador. And Gen would rather have Attolia in his life and wanting to marry him than have his hand back.

Just that whole final section that leads up to the ending of the book, with Attolia really being able to believe Gen when he says that he loves her... it's so good. How the narrative (and Eddis and Gen) are able to tease out Attolia's feelings for Gen, and how we end on that final quiet moment between the two of them. Really powerful ending.

It's a really good book and it's a really good romance. Gen and Attolia are both fantastic characters and even with all the twists and turns and revelations, their relationship felt incredibly captivating and believable. I really believe that Gen wants to break through Attolia's walls and, just as important, I feel like there's a person on the other side of those walls who is worth being loyal to and loving. You understand why Gen wants to be Attolia's husband, even after she ordered his hand cut off, which is very impressive storytelling.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to read the The King of Attolia soonish, and not in, like, four months.

And now onto the Wheel of Time/Mat & Tuon comparison section of the review for @markantonys 💖

It really does feel like a point-by-point improvement on Mat & Tuon, though I suspected unintentionally (it looks like this book came out 3 years before CoT).

Starting with the characters: wow, Attolia really is so much the person that I would have wanted Tuon to be. And she feels like the person that Jordan wanted readers to believe that Tuon was. Every place where I was going through my WoT reread and going "footage not found!" about something the narrative tried to claim about Tuon is something where the footage is very much found for Attolia. While Tuon's potentially heartbreaking backstory really is just backstory and ends up have zero impact on her active storyline, Attolia's tragic backstory is the entire spine of what her character is going through and what Gen can help her with.

We get to see and really experience Attolia's context, which is not something that we got with Tuon. Jordan makes an attempt, I guess, with Karade's sob story about Tuon and the doll, but he made the bizarre choice to frame this story in Karade's PoV (Tuon's slave), not from Tuon's PoV. For whatever reason, Jordan always insisted on making Tuon the most insufferably smug person in the world in her own PoVs.

With Attolia, we get those breaks in her mask that I kept desperately wanting us to get with Tuon but we never did. Again, this is mostly only for the reader, not even for Gen -- the reader gets to see behind Attolia's mask. And so Attolia is captivating and fascinating and I understand why she felt like she had to do these horrible things.

With Attolia, we actually get her being removed from her power base and feeling helpless, which Jordan never had the guts to do with Tuon (when Mat kidnaps Tuon, he lets her take her slave along with her, and then some of his allies decide to support Tuon over him despite having zero narrative or character-based reason to do so), which means that when Attolia regains her power, it has a much bigger impact on the narrative, while it felt like Tuon never really lost hers. Attolia and Gen both manage to be scrappy underdogs, in their own way, and that's something that Tuon never was.

Both Attolia and Tuon commit horrific acts, but while we see Attolia's remorse and how it torments her, Tuon always seems to shrug off the horrible shit that she does. It doesn't ever affect her emotionally and she never seems to think past it after it's done. She is a character without remorse or reflection (I think she vaguely thinks that it's a shame one time when she's pondering how she will break Mat's spirit but that's about it). And Attolia has those two qualities in spades. Attolia feels like a real woman to me in a way that Tuon never did. We see the brave face that she puts on, we see her regret and remorse, we see her loneliness, we see her jealousy over the Queen of Eddis, who is able to trust the members of her court in a way that Attolia has never felt she could trust her own. Tuon just feels really shallow in comparison to Attolia.

Even in the first cat and mouse scene with Attolia and Gen in this book, you can see the push and pull and the narrative equality of the characters. Gen has been in and out of four different strongholds of hers, and she feels that he's pretty much taunting her with his abilities. There's a mutual respect for the other person which was one of the big things that was missing for me with Mat and Tuon. In her final PoV in KoD, we learn that she has not had an ounce of respect for him during this entire journey -- it's not until she sees how the Band respects him that she considers whether or not there may be more to him than just being a pretty and dumb sextoy. And the big problem with that is that was the period when the 'romance' was being developed. During the time when she didn't have any respect for him as a person. And that makes it very difficult to find their relationship compelling, even apart from the fact that I found Mat himself profoundly unlikable in CoT & KoD.

Now, Mat being a terrible person (in CoT & KoD) and Tuon being a terrible person (always and forever) are not things that would stop me from shipping them in general. I am capable of finding Awful4Awful pairings compelling (like Louis and Lestat from Interview with the Vampire). They don't have to be good people, but there has to be something in the relationship that grabs onto me at any level, and that's where Mat and Tuon failed.

We can see in Attolia's thoughts that she envies the relationship that Gen has with the Queen of Eddis -- she envies that loyalty and wishes she could have something like that of her own. That sort of envy was also missing from CoT & KoD (I am going to mention, briefly, that some of these elements were present in the Mat & Tuon relationship in AMoL but at that point, it was just too late for me to give a shit about their relationship, because CoT & KoD thoroughly killed any interest that I had in them). Whether because of his own personal kinks or because of the plans that Jordan had for the Outriggers, Jordan made Tuon too much of an island; too much of an wall. The way he wrote her made me feel like nothing Mat could do would ever really matter to her in any way; that she was content to use him up and then throw him out and that's just not my thing. It may have been Jordan's kink but it is not mine.

So I definitely understand @markantonys's point about this feeling like a well-written version of Mat and Tuon! It really does feel like this is the sort of relationship that Jordan wanted to write with Mat and Tuon but didn't have the skill at romance writing to pull off. Something like Mat and Tuon is Hard Mode Romance and Jordan wasn't even always good at Easy Mode Romance.

Two of the key elements that really makes Attolia and Gen work for me is just getting to sit and exist in Attolia's emotional reactions to the wrong that she has done to Gen; and Gen acknowledging and processing the harm that she'd done. And both of those things were desperately needed with Mat and Tuon, both as characters and as a romance.

A major major part of why Mat and Tuon failed for me is because I didn't feel like Mat was actually reacting to her realistically for the vast majority of their page time together; she threatens to invade a city and he laughs it off, she assaults his companions that he freed from slavery and he thinks it's hot?!?, she talks about how she likes to torture women and he ignores it.

If Tuon had cut off Mat's hand, the way that Attolia cut off Gen's, it feels like Jordan would have just had Mat shrug it off and then buy her a puppy as a reward or something as his response. Here, we get Gen begging Attolia "please don't hurt me again" after she cuts off his hand and then we have months of separation and recovery and processing before the narrative takes him anywhere near her again. And Attolia is forced to reckon with what she did, first by being haunted by the memories of him crying from the pain and loss, and then she has to face it directly by seeing his stump, seeing the pain that he's still in (because of her). She has to admit (not just to herself but to him) the damage that she did before they can move forward together. This is something that Tuon never shows herself capable of on any level. Tuon is never allowed to grow as a person the way that Attolia is, or to be vulnerable with the audience or with Mat.

I definitely still really felt the Mat-Gen comparison in this book too. Lots of places, but there's a great moment in the meadow with him, Eddis, and the Magus, where Eddis explains that Gen has deliberately made people believe that he can't fight but he also still gets miffed sometimes if people fall for his carefully constructed facade.

And the moment when Gen tells Eddis that he plans to steal the Queen of Attolia. It really feels, again, like this is the sort of vibe that Jordan wanted us to believe existed between Mat and Tuon: "She may be a fiend from hell to make me feel this way but even if I've got to hate myself for the rest of my life, this is what I want. I dream about her at night." This intense draw and this pull that he feels towards her. Jordan appears to want us to believe that Mat feels this kind of draw towards Tuon at the end of KoD but has not created any kind of foundation in Mat's characterization as to why.

We also got the long separation between Attolia and Gen where they are haunting each other with their absence. Attolia and Gen just get the time that is needed to develop this relationship in a way that's believable. Time in the story, not page time. This book is shorter than CoT & KoD, and probably shorter than if you made a "Mat and Tuon" novella out of their scenes in those books. It's the actual 'in world' time that matters, that gives Attolia and Gen time to think about each other and miss each other in a genuine way.

For another comparison -- Gen 'steals' Attolia to marry her like Mat kidnaps Tuon, but the context is so incredibly different on every level. Mat gets, essentially, tricked into kidnapping Tuon by the 'finn (it never would have happened if he hadn't heard that prophecy) while Gen acts with intention the whole way through. Technically, in both cases, Gen and Mat are 'saving' Attolia and Tuon by kidnapping them, but we feel the weight of it with Gen and Attolia in a way that we don't with Mat and Tuon. And a lot of that is because the bulk of Gen and Attolia's build-up happens before the kidnapping, during the times when they're separated and haunted by each other. So once the kidnapping happens, it's quick-paced and moves the plot forward rather than, you know, just fucking around with a circus for a month.

We also know that Attolia has complicated feelings about Gen already. I talked about this with @markantonys but that really is something that needed to happen with Tuon so much sooner than it does in the books (there are two big Mat & Tuon scenes in AMoL that desperately needed to happen back in CoT, imo -- Tuon trusting that Mat isn't trying to kill her; and Tuon going wild trying to protect Mat in the command tent).

Attolia and Gen also genuinely have things that they can each offer the other person, while with Mat and Tuon, none of the things that Tuon offers are things that Mat actually wants (slaves bowing to him; being dressed up like one of the Blood; being formal at all times - these are things that some of Mat's fans want for him, but not things he wants for himself) and she just feels like this ravenous black hole that constantly takes and takes and takes and gives back nothing of value. When Gen is startled at the realization that marrying the Queen of Attolia makes him the King and he'll have to actually be a king, it's this incredibly sweet moment, because it illustrates so clearly that he wants Attolia for herself and not her country. When Mat reacts against the idea that marrying Tuon makes him royalty, it just kinda makes him look dumb, because we've been given nothing of value in Tuon herself as a person, and no reason for Mat to care about her.

With Tuon, Mat talks about how she's better than other nobles, but nothing she actually does on the page is better than any other Seanchan noble. It's all 'footage not found'. By contrast, every single positive thing that Gen says about Attolia is backed up by the text and we even get shown additional positive qualities that no one needs to talk about because it's right there in the text.

With Tuon, it feels like Mat is attempting to gaslight me (and himself?) into believing that an interesting character exists there despite all the evidence against it, while Attolia simply is a compelling character based on what happens on the page.

That fact that there are so many raw similarities between the two pairings, but my reaction to them are so different really does illustrate the importance of execution, imo. Attolia and Gen's romance manages to travel so much further than Mat and Tuon's, while also being considerably more economical with how many pages it took to get us there.

The point-by-point comparison (aka WoT's failure of execution):

Tuon's interior life is poorly illustrated in comparison to Attolia's; because she starts off as an even worse person than Attolia but so much less character work is done on her than on Attolia, who is haunted this entire book by how she has "sunk so low as to torture boys" (on that note, Turner's choice to make Gen the younger and more openly vulnerable one really works here).

Seeing that Attolia's handmaidens are genuinely affectionate and protective of her at the end of this book is so incredibly touching, because she had no expectation of their loyalty (she believes in the loyalty of gold, and gold alone, for the most part). Tuon, otoh, has slaves that she expects to be subservient and loyal unto death, so her slaves' affection for her (that was trained into them) is something that completely fails to move me. This difference in the expectations of the character also makes a huge difference in how their PoVs come off -- Attolia's walls are due to her internal vulnerability and we get to see that vulnerability in her PoVs; while Tuon comes across as full of herself and incredibly arrogant, taking everyone around her for granted.

We're told that Tuon is smart and perceptive but rarely get any evidence; while Turner shows us Attolia's intelligence and how she sees a lot more than people like the Medes ambassador believe that she does. We get to see Attolia's intelligence in how she tricks the Medes ambassador into believing that she's so much less perceptive and intelligent than she truly is. This is another place where Jordan's unwillingness to ever place Tuon into a genuinely vulnerable position really hurt the character. Turner wasn't afraid to make Attolia the underdog and knew that it wouldn't undermine her as a character, it would strengthen her, because we would get to see who she was in adversity. The set-up of Crossroads of Twilight should have led to us seeing Tuon in adversity but Jordan was allergic to allowing her to be truly vulnerable, and gave her people to hide behind (Selucia & Setalle Anan) the entire time.

Mat as an agent of chaos is wildly downplayed in comparison to Gen as an agent of chaos. The Seanchan end up getting spared the chaos that the end of the Age brought to pretty much every other society, even though Mat seems clearly positioned to bring their society crashing down even as late as Winter's Heart. Gen's actions, otoh, are constantly throwing other people's plans off.

Mat does not behave realistically to the horrible things that Tuon says and does -- with Gen, even though we find out towards the last third of the book that he was already in love with Attolia before the book begins, we still get his raw reactions to her doing things that hurt him. He has nightmares after she orders his hand cut off, his pained begging of her not to hurt him again, and how he develops his own mask of impassiveness that is modeled on her own. Gen also never throws away his moral code in order to try to force himself to be at peace with the relationship -- he grows and changes as a character as a result of his trauma, but he stays himself at the core.

Something else that Jordan could have used more in the books that would have helped develop an understanding of why Mat believes that something exists beyond Tuon's 'cold Empress mask' would have been to make the comparison between Rand's mask and Tuon's mask more clear in the narrative. Because there's too much separation in time between Rand and Mat's interactions with Mat and Tuon's interactions. In this book, seeing that Eddis also needs to put up a queenly mask of not caring about Gen at first (in front of the Attolian guards when they return him to her after his hand has been cut off) helps illustrate why Attolia needs the mask that she uses -- Eddis doesn't trust the Attolians, but Attolia feels like she can trust absolutely no one, and so she always needs the mask and feels like she can never take it off. That's compelling! It could have been compelling in Tuon too, if it had been written better.

On that note: Turner personalizes the damage that Attolia's cold mask and her ruthless defense of herself/her country is doing by having her hurt Gen directly, and that being something that she struggles with over the course of the book. With WoT, Jordan basically did everything he could to hide away the damage that Tuon/the Seanchan were doing from Mat in order to try to justify why he could ~fall in love~ with her (was it intentional? to set their relationship up for a fall later in the Outriggers? we'll never know) without ever actually changing Tuon/the Seanchan for the better, which also meant giving Tuon no reason to have any internal struggles over the choices that she's made.

Gen and Attolia get another thing that Mat and Tuon desperately needed but that Jordan refused to give them: privacy. They negotiate getting married (after Gen has kidnapped Attolia in a much more narratively satisfying kidnapping than Mat and Tuon's!) in privacy, just between the two of them; when we get the conversation about their feelings at the end, again it happens in private. That makes a huge difference. Jordan being unwilling to ever actually yank Tuon away from her full power base and her slaves was a huge hindrance to ever allowing her to be vulnerable. And I do chalk this up to unwillingness and not failures due to plot set-up because there is no good reason to have Selucia tag along on the kidnapping and then it's even more bizarre in CoT & KoD, when the character of Setalle Anan goes from being fond of Mat to all of a sudden acting like he's the worst person in the world and she must protect poor helpless baby girl Tuon from him.

Both Attolia and Tuon get tricked by their respective love interests about who they are as a person because of the facade that they put up, but Attolia still has respect for Gen and his skills, even as she doubts his character, and it is Gen's own actions that show her who he really is and make her believe in him; while with Tuon and Mat, she spends over a month with him and still refuses to look past his surface until she literally has her face rubbed into it by seeing the Band's reactions to him. This difference is a key one in making Attolia's failure to see Gen as a failure due to the protective walls that she has up; while Tuon's failure comes across as her just not being very perceptive or intelligent. And the fact that we don't get the moment when Tuon begins to have even the faintest shred of respect for Mat until the end of Knife of Dreams just meant that I felt even more like all the pages time that Jordan spent on the two of them in CoT & KoD was a complete waste of my time.

We got to have genuine reactions from all of Gen's loved ones about the relationship! This is a huge place where, I guess, Sanderson is the one who failed for a change instead of Jordan because wtf was Perrin's "lol you married now bro? haha" reaction to Mat being married to a slaver? Though Jordan also does this to a certain extent with Thom, who we are supposed to believe is in love with Moiraine, and yet who never calls Mat out on courting a woman who would enslave and torture Moiraine if she had the chance. By contrast, Eddis is genuinely hesitant and worried because of everything they've heard about how cold Attolia is, and because she's the reason that Gen's hand was cut off.

We get to see Attolia and Gen develop a shared language and see behind each other's walls. The moment when she wears the earrings that he left for her, and he knows that it means she's chosen to marry him of her own free will is such a huge and impactful moment, and the only people who are aware of what it means are Attolia and Gen! This is really a failure that happens based on earlier failures of execution: because Mat and Tuon are never allowed to be alone together, it's impossible for them to develop this kind of shared coding and shared language.

12. We also have the 'footage not found' issue, where one of the characters (mostly Mat) tries to tell me something about Tuon but the narrative completely fails to back it up: this is the case with Tuon being intelligent and perceptive (in the narrative shown to us, she never picks up on anything until her nose is forcibly rubbed in it); and this is case with Mat thinking near the end of Knife of Dreams that Tuon belongs in the same 'better than other nobles' bucket as Talmanes when she has never shown herself to be willing to make better choices than other Seanchan nobles: he is still, at this point, worrying that she might enslave him and turn him into her cupbearer; she has not only threatened but actually assaulted his companions; whenever she's placed in a position of power over other people, she takes advantage of it and them. We're told that she's not a child but she also throws a tantrum (and pottery) at Mat at the start of Crossroads of Twilight. This could have worked if Jordan had leaned into the fact that Mat is deliberately lying to himself in order to make his marriage bearable, but that's where things like randomly having Setalle Anan go over to Tuon's side messes with that narrative.

13. When Jordan has Mat think about how Tuon dying would be a deep loss to him, it's just baffling because she has not done a single thing the entire 'courtship' that has shown why in the world Mat would feel that way. All of the attempts at reaching out during the courtship are Mat's, while Tuon just smugly accepts it as her due. Because Attolia doesn't just accept Gen's love as her due, because she actually doesn't believe him and challenges him on it, we get to hear his justification of it and why he feels that way, and then we also get to see her reciprocation. The relationship is a two-way street in The Queen of Attolia.

14. Which ties into the fact that Jordan chose to make Tuon not just a slaver but an enthusiastic slaver who enjoys the slave-breaking process and that is an incredibly dark place to start a character but it could have worked if it had been the beginning of Tuon's character arc and we'd actually watched her change and grow from that position. And she had the narrative set up for it! In her very first chapter, the reader learns that Tuon has the ability to learn to channel! She was created with the narrative juice to have a compelling arc about accepting the truth about herself and her people. And then Jordan gave that arc to Bethamin instead, lol.

15. In both of these stories 'fate' does kinda serve up Gen/Mat to Attolia/Tuon on a silver platter, but the execution of the storylines makes the reveal that fate was acting to push the two of them together so much more effective in The Queen of Attolia. Choice is a much larger consideration in Attolia and Gen's relationship than it is in Mat and Tuon's. There are elements of the higher powers of the world at work in both relationships, but Attolia and Gen have to put in the work themselves and have to face hard emotional truths in order to get us to the satisfying ending. I get the impression that Tuon wouldn't know an emotional truth if it spit in her eye. We actively see both Gen and Attolia consider and reject the idea of solving their main problem (about the war) without needing to get married; we see them choose their marriage and each other.

With Mat and Tuon, this is a lot more muddled. Fate/the Pattern/the 'finn want them to marry each other but we never get any kind of payoff as to why, and this is primarily because of Jordan's other storylines imo. He should not have had Rand already willing to make peace with the Seanchan in his separate storyline. Convincing Rand to be willing should have been Mat's job (because that also would mean that Mat would need to make the arguments to convince the readers). Jordan showing at the end of KoD that Rand is willing to make a deal with the Seanchan, even at the cost of giving in on the matter of slavery, basically completely voided any narrative reason for Mat and Tuon to get married, but without the satisfaction of seeing the two of them grow to a place where they would actively make that choice rather than being motivated by what they believe is necessary (due to prophecy).

There really were the bones of a potentially compelling story with Mat and Tuon, and I really do hope that the show (when we get there) is able to take those bones and turn it into a genuinely compelling story.

#the queen's thief #butterfly reads tqt #butterfly book club #wot book spoilers #a memory of light #wot #wheel of time #seanchan cw #wot meta #my wot meta #irene of attolia #eugenides #mat cauthon

106 notes · View notes