ilikelookingatthings

[ilikelookingatthings]

personally I think they could still bring in some kagami luka drama for the square...like remember...kagami broke up with adrien due to the lies he had to say due to being chat noir...but what if she finds out adrien is Chat? that he had a good reason for lying? that she gets the context that him acting like a bit of a goof WAS him genuinely trying to open up which she hadn't recognized and had shut down?

Maybe adress that Adrien's feelings for Kagami HAD genuinely been real and there(unlike how the fandom acts like it wasn't) but adrien gave up quickly due to having to lie and knowing he hurt her and that there was nothing he could do without coming clean...which he couldnt do due to the rules.

I think that could be interesting for Kagami because she'd understand the person adrien had difficult fully letting go of was of Ladybug who he has to fight with everyday and who was having a hard time...but also maybe remember how that kove akuma had sensed chat's interest in her before...

like I know adrien is dating mari and the chemistry i higher there...but maybe pointing out that adiren's way to cope was distraction to contrast mari who was allowed to cry for luka...and it could get interesting if that relights some feelings for adrien despite how good they have been at trying to convince me of felix/kagami. maybe kagami can wonder if she was just changing targets?

I personally would wonder if mari due to her tendency to simplify tings might tell herself she wasn't interested romantically in chat and had just fooled herself before...I feel like they didnt really do anything that interesting with feelings toward chat which feels a bit of a shame you know.

but who knows...maybe we'll see adrien a bit frustrated at how easy mari has it to talk to luka compared to him sometimes?

i feel like they set s5 up in a very specific way to make it clear both adrigami and lukanette are like deader than dead…

but i also feel like it’s almost a given that they’re going to have adrinette break up for drama at some point in s6 or s7…

and if they do split for a significant amount of time the only logical conclusion to keep the romance aspect of the show going is…

ladynoir comeback? :D

[ilikelookingatthings]

honestly... my hope is that Chloe will come back and be redeemed, and the point will be that Mari like always jumped to conclusions too soon due to not knowing all the facts and that Chloe IS in fact redeemable!

like Chloe's spiral was LITERALLY set up by Hawkmoth.

She was watching her parents fight in front of her, he akumatized them, told her it was because of her that he targeted them leading her to try to get help from LB using her signal...only to cut the power to the signal so chloe was isolated on a rooftop where he dug into her insecurities and used the opening LB gave him to dig in harder and then had pollen and the other kwami's hostage. everyone focuses on how chloe agreed due to being upset she wasn't queen be and LB not coming to get her..

.People forgetting that chloe's main motive was due to her parents an pollen being hostages! if she had said no she's be alone with a adult male villian with no way to defend herself when she KNOWS the villains aren't above violence since she fought mayura! and he would have kept pollen and the other kwamis and culd have kept targetting her because LB saying she couldnt be queen bee to protect her and pollen failed! chloe was targetted anyway and LB failed to protect pollen!

it felt like chloe saying its because LB should have had her be the bee forget that chloe had accepted she was not going to be queen bee anymore previously! and in this case she's not wrong! if LB had gone to her this wouldn't have happened. and Chloe had tried SO hard to be good. We SAW she meant it! her desperation trying to figure out how using adrien and trying to not disappoint mister cuddly the bear! how she had gotten to the point of calling mari by name and having admitted when she was wrong and even apologizing to the teacher! her TEARS!

Heck her acting meaner clearly felt out of character even compared to the early seasons...which was both clearly her over compensating to cover up her true feelings becuase its familiar and feels safer hat trying to be good and failing when she feels she burnt her bridge to ladybug and it clearly parallels how BOTH adrien and marinette relied on old behaviors for comfort and to distract themselves while kindfo isolating and pushing people away...trying to lie to themselves and others to feel more in control...doubling down to not feel helpless...

only chloe successfully pushed her people away! adrien the one who might listen but also call her out more she cut off when he tried to stop her messing with zoey again becuase him using the friendship to show he was serious felt like he wasn't even going tp listen to her reasonings..which honest paralleled how mari kindof shut out alya and her dad for a bit when they didn't immediately believe her about lila even though they were clearly on her side and thought she was innocent...making someone feel heard is important...but that cut off someone who was pivital to chloe's growth! and sabrina was left..but sabrina also tends toenable chloe at times and doesn't push...

ladybug/mari didn't even try that hard to try to approach chloe on this! the show didn't even try to use Zoey's sister...who while the treatment was wrong...doesn't mean chloe's feelings of being replaced was wrong! this girl spent all that time with the mom, understands being kind and doesn't have teh baggage of being a bully or siding with hawkmoth and could get a fresh start when chloe couldn't even run to newyork!

and despite teh show making it CLEAR that the villains are people who feel negatively and are hurt pr feel wronged who go about trying to help themselves or validate their own feelings on their own and who get manipulated while in that vulnerable state are in fact VICTIMS. that those villians are hurting and need help..where if you find the source of their issues and make them feel seen you get a chance to talk them down and try to get them REAL help while they can think clearky enough to realize what they were doing wasn't actually going to solve the problem.

that chloe was VERY much being manipulated while feeelings negatively by lila and hawkmoth...they try to pretend like chloe was ALWAYS the worst and can't be redeemed?

she literally tried stealing mari's hat design in the first season because her dad taught her it was okay to cheat! her dad and teh school enabled her worst tendencies! and yet her dad dumping her on the mom who encourages her acting worst while clearly not caring about her and forgetting her name while trying to claim he's taking responsibility for his actions and taking the 'nicer' daughter zoey after doing NOTHING to really help chloe at this point? I'm supposed to see him as redeemed? Zoey didn't even try to harder to help her sister despite saying she would nor any follow up on how it was kindof messed up for LB to over zoey the bee when that would hurt chloe by just saying 'its fine chloe won't know'?

Like..I get mari shouldn't be responsible for Chloe improving. But mari is LITERALLY a hero! inspiring people is what they are supposed to do...and destroying a villain by giving them a alterative where they become better is WAY more inspiring!

I think there IS a real shot that chloe can be redeemed in the future Zuko style....but that doesn't mean the way they handled it is good at ALL.

like I can't stop my rage at the 'repressed' memory at mari's 'love trauma' over kim and chloe! like whats the POINT! chlie and adrien were already not friends so why have adrien reiterate that again? kim hasn't been into chloe since season one and is a trusted hero and has had a girlfriend...why would he NOT be sincerely apologetic if he found out he hurt mari? and more he's afraid of spiders! how would mari NOT know who is crush was? and how mari reacted to chloe all this time makes NO sense if chloe was this bad! its clearly just a way to make chloe look even worse even though chloe was clearly being used to teach mari that people are complex and CAN improve and change and aren't simply bad.

how am I supposed to believe mari would give gabe ANY sort of chance when the person they used to teach her the nuance chloe is now deemed by her as irredeemable and that mari sees all the lessons she learned as a waste of time with chloe?! it was baby steps but we KNOW chloe had been improving before! and they don't even try to adress properly that chloe falling back on old habits was a coping mechanism due to feelings hurt over 'failing' to be good...feelings like people won't let her be good!

heck i don't even need Mari to be the one to reach out to Chloe next time....I want ADRIEN to!

maybe they will find a way to bring back all the videos that felix deleted from his phone and adrien can see Chloe's video...or ZOEY could step up and be concerend about Chloe being alone with the mom or finding out about the hostage aspect from pollen since that never gets revealed to the rest!

I just CAN'T imagine this is where they leave off with chloe! its the WORST message! like I'm desperately hoping this is some redherring where thomas was trolling us this whole time.....but it just feels ICKY.

like maybe they could point out using he miraculous wrong can have side effects on your mental state..they could explain some stuff on chloe or something right? it might help with gabe a bit more instead of just giving him redemption half ass at the last second without any build.

or maybe chloe will get better friends in newyork or something?!

just....it feels so OFF that they are expecting me to just accept is verbatum when it feels so OFF! and makes no sense theme wise with the show anyway! like chloe was ALREADY not winning in most of the show. chloe never WINS in the show and generally faces some karma when she does something wrong...so why did they need to go THIS far? WE literally saw her cry after losing everyone!

what was the point in showing adrien wasn't wrong in being upset at everyone celebrating chloe leaving before if this is where it was going to go?!

Dear Chloé Haters,

Now that "Revolution" has aired, I hope you're proud of yourselves.

I hope you're proud that she's gonna live with her abusive mother, I hope you're proud that she lost everything; including the two friends (Adrien and Sabrina) that she actually cared for and were willing to help her, I hope you're proud that no one, not even her own father or sister, loves her. I especially hope you're proud that you got your wish: That she's worse that Gabriel, Lila, Nathalie, and Félix, and that she's an irredeemable monster because your precious Marinette and your God Thomas Astruc said so; just so you can have your stupid ass Love Square ship (Which I'm starting to despise more and more thanks to how poorly written this show is and because of you guys.) and that she might be (Key word: might) written out for good because Thomas himself hates her for the most pathetic fucking reason ever.

If you can honestly look at this and go "Woohoo yes! It's about time that bitch got karma! She had it coming all these years!"

A. You don't know a damn thing about karma and how it works.

B. You also don't know what it's like to be abused and how abuse can affect someone, especially someone as young as Chloe was when her mom left her.

And C. You especially don't know what it's like to be change for the better, only to fail repeatedly because old habits are hard to change for the better.

Oh, and don't you dare fucking give me that "Well Mylène said her mom left her and she turned out fine" or "Well Gabriel was a shitty person as a teenager, and he only got worse" crap. I don't want to hear a goddamn thing about those shitty ass arguments. That just proves that you're biased and Thomas doesn't know a fuck ton about abused victims and how they cope differently.

I don't want to deal with you. Not now. Not ever.

Get off my page if you hate Chloe. Block me for all I care. Hell, call me a bully or racist apologist or hell, even a sociopath apologist for all I care.

I. Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

You got your wish, and now my wish is to not associate with any of you people.

Bye.

#miraculous ladybug #chloe bourgeois #andre bourgeois #audrey bourgeois #chloe sugar #andre salt #audrey salt #mlb s5 spoilers #mlb revolution #ml revolution

[ilikelookingatthings]

Dear Mr. Astruc,

You can call Chloe irredeemable and a lost cause all you want, but this moment will forever stay in my head rent free.

[ilikelookingatthings]

anyone else feeling liek adrien getting a chat blanc nightmare out of the blue when he should have no reason to have one felt kindof odd and convenient when it technically never happened at all in this universe? I mean...I don't hate it...but does anyone else think maybe it might be a weird side affect from they time travelling back with sass in emphereal and how everything got weird?

#miraculous ladybug #chat noir #adrien #hawkmoth #chat blanc #time travel #sass #emhereal #nightmares #dreams

[ilikelookingatthings]

hmmm...I can kindof see you point of sabrina...they DID try to point out sabrina had a bad relationship with chloe at the beginning where sabrina EASILY left chloe for Marinette when marinette offered a alternative...only for mari to kind of half ass it and struggle because the way sabrina shows friendship is doing stuff for others and being a bit clingy...where you can't tell if this is a side effect from being chloe's friend or just a natural part of sabrina that enables chloe. where Sabrina went back to chloe because Marinette ditched her for the nate situation without properly explaining. Making sabrina feel like mari didn't care about how sabrina felt either so went back to CHloe...

WE know chloe had broken her friendship to sabrina before in antibug...but also that chlpe had unthinkingly gotten sabrina's dad fired over the braclet ad being unreasonable(though that was more on the dad/mayor but the fact chloe didn;t think of that at all isn't exactly great). though we also saw sabrina upset at the broken friendship and that chloe actually ahd faith that sabrina wouldnt attack her and didn't want to believe she caused her to be akumatized...so while mari assumed chloe was lying to cover her own ass...it was actually chloe genuinely not wanting to believe that sabrina would attack her even akumatized and not realizing how she hurt sabriina...and we saw that chloe knew the importance of the broach she gave her...and chloe did seem to make up with her where sabrina was touched...even if it seems that money was definitly a part of their dynamic as sabrina seemed to like the stuff and perks around chloe (something even the rest of the class gives into from time to time...like the jaggestone signatures or the movie equipment ect).

and we saw sabrina get pset on chloe's behalf at ladybug in miraculour where we see genuine care from sabrina toward chloe.

but while sabrina also clearly enables chloe....sabrina HAS apologized before and seemed reluctant sometimes...but also HAS tried to impress chloe by being mean herself(like the comment toward mari when mari was going through the trash to get to adrien's letter).

I feel like its a weird mix of feeling special being there for chloe due to being close due to meeting through the parents...ebing drawn in at first by the perks and money and how being a yes man IS a way to avoid being bullied herself and staying on chloe's good side...and then feeling more special because she knows chloe in a way no one else does...and sympathetic due to seeing the time chloe honestly IS kindof pathetic and vulnerable...and maybe some respect becuase chloe is such a powerhouse who stays true to herself while sabrina seem to be more of a natural follower(or at least seems more comfortable).

I think your right that sabrina does seem to get away with doing bad things when she could just not be friends with chloe...but your forgetting before origins chloe was bullying the entire class to some degree, was class president and seemed to win more....so sabrina staying as chloe's lackey was a good way to not be bullied herself as a tactic...and of course a way to make sabrina feel special.

So I'm torn because at times she IS apologetic and its clear she hangs with chloe due to familiarity and the times being with chloe is fun...but I think its good to NOT forget that sabrina is a lackey...enabling chloe is bad but its still chloe calling the shots.

I kind of judged sabrina harsher because sabrina DID seem to easily abandon chloe early in the show before when mari offered a alternative and then backtracked...showing that sabrina IS kindof around chloe for the money mostly at times even if theres a affection there due to chloe's demands giving something for sabrina to do and sabrina doing stuff is how sabrina shows care....though it COULD parallel how sabrina almost became better earlier in the show...but then backtracked back to her old ways after a perceived betrayal similar to how chloe had almost gotten better due to mari/ladybug influence but spiralled back into old habits due to a percieved betrayal as well...where a issue was mari giving a bit of half assed hope to get them to change and circumstances and it not actually being mari's job to fix them since she doesn't personally like them but pitys them getting in the way. only sabrina at the end rejecting being mean and siding with the good guys...while chloe had instead doubled down...though it could also parallel nathalie who had ALSO enabled the worst behaviours of someone they cared about out of love because going against them risks being cut off...only poor treatment and the person going too far caused Nathalie and sabrina to be cut off.

though I wouldn't call Sabrina WORSE than Chloe even if I get the frustration of sabrina;s bad aspects getting more of a pass...but they DO point out that sabrian often takes the brunt of chloe's bad behavior and how it can be scary to branch out from something familiar. and chloe and sabrina and a dependence on each other which wasn't really healthy.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Though I WOULD argue that Chloe's spiral made SOME sense...and I don't meant in a 'chloe was always horrible and we should take her being worse as verbatum or that we should dismiss her redemption ability entirely kind of way'......nor in a 'chloe being that worse was completely out of character and sabotage kindof way'. I mean that chloe being worse than she ever was in the earlier seasons after the loss of fu made sense as a coping mechanism.

Chloe was literally cornered..her parents taken hostage where she was told it was her fault directly, she was lured to go to her ladybug signal...only to be isolated on the roof where they cut her power so she couldn't call for help..where then hawkmoth methodically DUG into chloe's insecurities and weakness that he knows due to being a family friend of chloe for years. where he then used LB's mistake of using someone else who hawkmoth knows to make chloe question things more since chloe was targetted anyway..and then he had pollen and the rest of the kwami's hostage...showing LB failed to protect pollen and targeted chloe anyway and LB choose someone else hawkmoth knew the identity of.

If chloe had said no she would have been stuck on a rooftop alone with no way to protect herself with an angry adult villian who's lackey mayura has shown they aren't above physically attacking people..and hawkmoth would have kept pollen and the other kwami.....like yes due to hawkmoth manipulation she seemed to focus on resenting LB for not letting her stay queen bee which seems like she is her entitled self.....but that distracting us from the fact chloe only agree when he agreed to free her parents and if she DIDN'T agree he would have kept pollen. and distracts us from remembering chloe HAD accepted not being queen bee before in miraculuer when she was mentally strong enough to refuse a butterfly which is difficult to do..she hadn't been happy...but she HAD accepted it for pollens protection which ladybug failed to do. unlike mari who often has a better motive that distracts us from her more selfish/self-serving motive...in this case chloe had a bas good motive for giving it that we get distracted from using the selfish seemingly entitled motive. and while chloe has faith in LB...she could assume that LB would have defeated her even if she sided with hawkmoth...but the issue is a permanent side effect happened due to all the other side heroes being revealed which chloe couldn't take back....

chloe struggled for so hard but ended up from her perspective burning her bridge with LB...with no reason to think LB would be understanding or forgive her...and even more when it doesn't erase that chloe was targeted and LB failed to protect pollen...especially when hawkmoth due to his emotional manipulation framed her thoughts to blame LB. Chloe had wanted to run away only for her parents to suddenly get along despite fighting all day...cutting off her escape route to newyork and having to sit with what she did....

we saw in the newyork special chloe was especially moody(directly after her actions) and chloe started acting worse the following season even more than she did in the earlier seasons....which most of us see as out of character when chloe HAD clearly been improving as a person and had improved enough to take responsibility to miss bustier and mari over the purse and say sorry.

but chloe relying on being mean makes sense because its familiar...its safe in a way...we've seen chloe genuine struggle to understand and trying to be nice even when she was really trying. chloe tried hard to be good and failed which HURTS when you try your best and its not enough...so doubling down on being bad to cope makes sense as something familiar that chloe thinks she's good at andas something to distract her from any guilt of shame or mixed feelings...by pretending being bad was her own idea its chloe's way or trying to feel in control. And its natural for most kids to want to shift blame to feel less bad.

then zoey comes....pretty, understands how to act nice, got to live with the most who chloe had missed all this time, doesn't have the baggage of being a bully and having betrayed LB like chloe did...and zoey is talented and the class likes her...it makes sense chloe is testy more than usual (even if zoey clearly didn't have a good time with the mom). chloe was wrong to lash out at zoey but I lso get why chloe had this sense of being replaced and took out her already boiling feelings on her...heck zoey herself even noticed that it was insensitive of LB to choose zoey of all people as the replacement and how it would hurt chloe even mari brushed that off since Chloe wouldn't know its zoey. ladybug was even still using known side hero's making her only really enforcing the rule on chloe not a great look...and adrien understandably putting his food down to stop chloe and not enabling her behavior made sense...it was actually going o make chloe feel better after all and its not justified...

but by using his friendship as collateral for force the issue to shpw he is serious since that had a effect for the better last it backfired because it made chloe feel like adrien wasn't going to listen to her feelings or validate where they came from...similar to how mari was frustrated with aly when alya didnt listen to her about it being lila who pinned her for stuff...arguable they still need evidence and it makes sense to question things and alya still saw mari as innocent and was trying to help her and was still on mari's side...but mari lashed out and shut alya(and even her dad out) when mari perceived them as not validating her feelings.

adrien not enabling Chloe like Sabrina was satisfying...but it did cause chloe to shut Adrien out and cut off the friendship.

and Chloe would act bad or weird and rely on old dynamics(like messing with Mari and the class) because it was familiar...which actually also strongly paralleled how mari and adrien both relied on past behavior and crushes for a sense of familiarity to distract themselves from their problems and pretend they are fine...like mari with her crush on Adrien and Adrien with his crush on LB...using flirting at times to distract and pretend things are fine due to their past bantr for example...while Mari used her crush on adrien to cope and feel normal and distract herself.

chloe hiding in a ceiling to ambush everyone making plans about adrienette to go tell adrien was so over the top and doesn't match with how chloe had acted about mari's crush before...showing that chloe is overcompensating like a cry for help that wasn't veing noticed...similar to how mari tried pushing people away when overwhelmed with emotions trying to pretend, she was fine when she wasn't.

and Chloe was taken advantage of by hawkmoth and Lila due to her vulnerability like usual....

so it makes sense Chloe would spiral and get worse when her dad enables her, she has no one to REALLY vent to anymore and Sabrina is a yes-man who also isn't pushing enough to get Chloe to vent.

thematically while it makes sense for Chloe to face consequences for her actions...thematically the show also clearly points to the idea Chloe is also clearly a victim as well...as the show has pointed that the REAL villains are those who manipulate people who are feeling negative and at their worst to self-sabotage and do worst things that will just make it harder for them in the future...

and WEthe audience know Chloe was manipulated by Lila and hawkmoth and her spiral had been set up...and we know more than Mari does. Like her message to Adrien that Felix deleted. or how Chloe HAD genuinely been improving. how she resisted a butterfly on her own before...and how she was set up by hawkmoth and he took hostages.

so Chloe getting worse as a bad coping mechanism and getting manipulated to be worse makes sense without negating the validity of Chloe actually being worth redemption earlier in the show.

we also know a consistent weakness for Mari is she tends to judge people and situations quickly and be stubborn about and Mari does have a 'understandable' bias with Chloe.

I feel like the twist will be that the show is acting like Chloe is irredeemable and that she got the proper karma.... while in fact Mari is wrong and Chloe is in fact redeemable and is a victim who wasn't seen as one.

After Chloe's arc broke, my viewing and interest in miracolous has waned, but with people pointing out what's wrong and what happened, I can see how shitty the show has gone, many thanks Thomas for your scriptwriting

We all know that Andre and Gabriel had the craziest redemption arcs, but I've noticed that hardly anyone talks about Sabrina, who in my opinion is much worse than Chloe, not only did everything without remorse, she also wanted to do it and she liked what she was doing, the fact that, that someone like that got a redemption bow makes me displeased (To put it mildly) she was actually worse than Chloe herself because Chloe is a bit of a dork and a pain in the ass and annoying and stuff but no one would have taken her seriously if it wasn't for her father and herself Sabrina who does everything, rather Chloe would be a typical annoying screaming kid, who's a dick to everyone, you know, typical rich kid or stuff like that, but let's be honest, at least the students have a burp and the lesson is more interesting when that type of kid argues with the teacher

Chloe is only dangerous because of her father and Sabrina's actions, therefore Sabrina is inferior to Chloe in the things she does, but somehow she gets redemption so quickly and it pisses her off

Sabrina did everything consciously as seen in the show, had no reason to be complicit in it, and often made her own decisions (I know some scenes imply that she is Chloe's victim, but after seeing the dynamic between her and Chloe for a while, one can conclude that Sabrina is the manipulator, not Chloe, as Thomas would like to believe, because the show itself clearly shows that Sabrina makes her decisions, it's not even a type of toxic friendship, as it was in "Amphibia", but something else, more sinister)

In addition, the argument that she wanted to please Chloe would also make no sense, because compared to the school in our real life, many students would be more valuable than Chloe, the only argument I can come up with is money, which even worse shows Sabrina herself as a person, because would the money be worth it to get into this type of friendship? I know, that she is a child but this relationship with Chloe lasts too long, usually these types of friendships fall apart and Sabrina by this logic shouldn't be around Chloe for that long because she would get fed up with her, which is contrary to what is shown in the show, so no he's with Chloe for the money, and of his own free will

Seriously, Sabrina could have made friends with someone else, she didn't have to with Chloe because it was easier to make friends at this school than at my real one (Hello former scapegoat), so it's even more ridiculous that she got the redemption bow using the excuse that it was it's always Chloe's fault and suddenly everyone's happy, I seriously can't buy it because what she was doing was 100% conscious and intentional, not manipulated, because someone forced her to do something, this show hurts so much about who gets the redemption arc

Because what Sabrina was doing was seriously worse than what Chloe was doing, but Thomas doesn't want to see that like with Lilia because he just decides that Chloe is beyond repair and then we have something like Sabrina who did things on her own will, suddenly he is a victim

I know I'm repeating myself, but this show really annoys me, and as someone who's actually been bullied at school, I'm okay with feeling annoyed that the show is trying to tell me something that I know isn't true, by the way, Thomas, Marinette should not have PTSD and trust issues + Should be withdrawn and acquire social anxiety

I've always been annoyed in cartoons how violence in school was shown as something that makes you laugh more seriously I didn't like the way it was portrayed and miracolous is part of that genre of bad representation of school bullying and the obvious lack of familiarity with the subject as a whole

#cartoon #miracolous ladybug #thomas astruc #ml writers salt #ml critical #thomas astruc salt #miraculous ladybug salt #chloe bourgeois #Miracolous Sabrina #Sabrina #marinette dupain cheng #adrien #adrien agrest #cht noir #chat noir #ladybug #miraculous #the miraculous adventures of ladybug and chat noir #sabrina #redemtion

[ilikelookingatthings]

Honestly it frusterates me SO MUCH. like arguable before the retcon...Mari was definitly obsessive and kindof stalker at times and crossed lines and had a idealized version of him in her head...but we also saw the issue was based on how she handled her crush.

Adrien's issues directly contrast hers. he flirts to test the waters to see if LB likes him while mari wants to go all in for confessing from the get go but can't make any moves becuase she cares too much and gets nervious. Mari didn't realize how serious chat's feelings are for her are until he spells it out directly to her civilian side becuase she gets nerves and can;t act on her feelings and chat tends to be fine being goofy and a dork around LB instead of freezing up.

Adrien tends to be TOO forward with his feelings. it burst out of him with poor timing at times or him trying to get any attention....to contrast mari who holds TOO much BACK. she is just as intense but behind the scenes..collecting info on his scheduale or his likes and dislikes and making presents and mari backtracks or lied about her motives so adrien doesn't know her feelings.

Adrien also values friendship more because he hasn't had many and he was homeschooled so getting friendzoned is a foreign idea to him..while mari in public school knows of teh friendzone and often complains about wanting adrien to like her back the same way immediately. Not realizing that feelings can be BUILT UP TO or change.

People sincerely have crushes on mari in the show for who she is...nino, nathaniel, luka, chat for a few examples...while chloe clearly is worried about losing adrien and oesnt seem liek her feelings are ACTUALLY romantic, lila just wants him for the fame and doesn't care about him as a person, and the show tried to invalidate kagami's feelings for adrien.

Mari tended to avoid adrien and mix up words where alya and others often had to bring a opportunity up for adrien to jump on or to get involved around mari...while Adrien/chat was good at making the first move.

Adrien has learned due to how he was raised that holding back won't get him anywhere when it comes to feelings and that he can't rely on other people to validate his feelings on his own. HE has to be the one to bring it up...and especially due to his mom going 'missing'/getting sick..adrien values being open and honest with feelings while he can.

while mari due to the normal bullying(before the retcon) would make sense why she might be a bit insecure to some degree about wanting a guy she likes to like her back especially when she had a bad first impression with him on her end.

one of the things that mari admired about Adrien was his ability to be emotionally vulnerable even when circumstances would make anyone hesitate...like him going to her, despite her jumping to conclusions and judging him, during the gum incident and being honest and even being understanding about WHY she jumped to conclusions.

Adrien as chat had to deal with having a crush ON HIS OWN. he couldn't squee about it to his friends ...heck even plagg made sure to either pop his bubble or tease him ..being nuetral at best to not let adrien's hopes get too high becuase adrien is naturally more positive ....heck adrien couldn't even ask for advice properly or find out where he was going wrong in approach his crush who he had a limited time to see.... unlike mari who had tikki and her family and almost all the classmates supporting her and who could gush out in the open all she wanted.

We see times he makes mistakes...him trying to imply that him and LB are a thing casually to make theo back off while acting causual like he is doing theo a favor by bringing it up... where the show immediately points out adrien was in the wrong to do this by having theo get akumatized into copycat and adrien knowing immeidtaely it was his own actions that caused it, plagg teasing him about it, the city chasing him, him getting humilated and captured trying to solve it on his own...and the fact he was lying being a main foctor in tricking theo into losing where LB admitted to thinking it was clearly a lie and showing she hadn;t been taking ANY of his feelings seriously...the show directly pointing out and punishing him for getting ahead of himself...while mari often acts on her jealous more directly...seperating adrien from chloe in bubbler, acting on it when it comes to kagami, and acting on it with lila as just a few..where its not really pointed out enough that mari stops herself from acting on it despite not being his girlfriend.

Him being foward is also understod due to not having any time outside of akuma attacks to hang with her often but they also point out he;s wrong if he feels entitled for her to be there(glacatiour hich was him projecting his issue with people assuming his feelings would match whats convient for them and ignore he;d obviously have a right to be upset...from his dad onto LB until she validated his right to his own feelngs where he then apologized and said she didn't owe him to come)...and even in frozer when he seemed to try to get LB jealous..he relaized he couldn't just expect her feelings to change...and he couldn't expect his own to change over night either...so he decided to give up on changing targets....but that also meant LATER when he did try again with kagami that kagami WASN'T just a changed target..as even a akuma sensed his interest. Adrien got closure and was honest about his feelings...not even lying to himself about them being gone but chosing to decide how he would feed in platinically even in the newyork special....contrasting mari who had pushed adrien an dkagami together on her OWN when they all just wanted to hang as friends...and who then tried lying to herself that she was over adrien despite that not being the case and her assuming chat was just trying to get around her saying no with the flower even though he DID mean it for friendship.

even the breakups had luka be really understanding of mari choosing to breakup with him while kagami no longer wanting to be friends with adrien..where mari was allowed to cry about her relationship..while adrien who is used to things not working out and knowing he can't tell kagami the truth uses his crush on LB to distract himself...no longer the focus being on wanting LB to like him back...but having someone he can express feelings for saftly cuz she had made it clear where they stood and it was part of their banter.

heck something I had noticed was Adrien had held back on admitting things were bothering him as chat to LB because he knows LB was going through alot...eveb though HE was going through quite alot as a civilian just like mari was...but mari/ladybug was allowed to vent....not just to alya but she acted out as LB due to her emotions infront of him as well(ah the move theater incident)..where chat was trying to check up on her and cheer her up..but it never occured to mari to check on chat's feelings(not helped that he was hiding his issues from her).

heck even Mari then used her feelings for adrien to distract her from her problems and make herself feel normal and like she wasn;t giving up being a normal girl...using him as a bit of a coping mechanism...

saying things like adrien is perfect, adrien wouldn't steal, adrien wouldn't have to lie like I do ect....liek mari who was clearly the more cautious one back in origin who worried aboyt taking up the mantle contrasting adrien who jumped into ot he didnt even listen to all the rules..and how she needed more encouragement due to thinking she messed up to get back into it..while chat had jumped in despite messing up and encouraged this stranger fighting with him...mari getting intese about her crush ad then looking up more info becuase when you like someone you want to know more...while indulging it feeling closure while not making herself vulnerable herself by collecting information from afar...it makes sense mari would start putting adrien more on a pedistal for a while and treat adrien like a celebrity crush no matter who sincere the first reason she liked him was.

heck adrien has a more accurate view of ladybug(who doesn't hide her positives or negatives from him) AND marinette who he sees stand up for what she believes in infront of him for the others classmates and who had stood up to him that first day and who he gets to see as chat as well. where he is very open about thinking highly of BOTH sides of her...

while Mari tends to have more tunnel vision and thinks she knows both adrien and chat the best but has kindof put them in boxes in her mind....(I'm thinking especially of the aspik episode) and how she struggled to see them as the same person without luka pushing her in that direction...mari is more stubborn and jumps to conclusions faster...she often gets distracted thinking of chat as silly or not serious...even though he often CAN be serious in battle and is pretty reliable and sincere and she KNOWS that..but often forgets.

The show directly points out the issues of adrien/chat being too forward and how he handles his crush on her.....but the show often side steps to some degree that mari had been treating adrien as a celebrity crush and that adrien was falsly believing mari was seeing him with unclouded eyes as a friend first...and that mari tends to avoid tough conversations while adrien tries to approach the topics first.

ALL they had to do was have adrien find out about mari's stalking aspects of that she had been seeing him as a love interest first or that her not having a accurate view HURT him...have her realize that and have some of it called out...and her do better!

PLENTLY of kids get REALLY weirdly intense about crushes and feelings(heck NINO paralleled marinette in the first season when he had a crush on mari while alya and adrien rolled tehir eyes saying all they needed to do was TALK to them)...collecting pictures sometimes...heck I've even seen kids remember sceduals or where people might hang out at certain times to try to be around their crushes. and adrien is a PUBLIC figure..and nowadays alot of information is REALLY easily available..so plenty of kids DON'T realize they are crossing lines and being creepy!

people justify to themselves compared to how they are harsher toward other people becuase they know they mean well and aren't seeing themselves as a threat. mari being a girl, pretty, talented and well liked means her classmates aren't going to realize she is being creepy..so MARI isn't really going to realize she is being creepy...even more when mari is anoumous and can act on things as ladybug as well.

They could have used mari as the yang to adrien's yin ...where they issues contrast eachother where adrien is to forward while mari holds back too much and is still equally intense..and it points out even GOOD people can get sucked into not realizing they aren't treating someone properly or going too far!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

but instead they try to pull a weird retcon which made NO sense for how they portrayed her uptil now! why would she team up with chloe at all if chloe was THIS bad? let alone team up with her against kagami before? why trust alya standing up to chloe would last if teh other person who stood up to her got kicked out? Kim hasn;t beeing into chloe since season 1! why would he be not that apologetic and talk about how pretty she is INFRONT of his grilfriend? Adrien was also horrified about catacysming hawkmoth! why would he almost catasym kim? and adrien and chloe were already not friends! whats the point of him saying they aren't friends AGAIN when the topic of becoming friends again wasn;t breached! nd many of the previous episodes realized on the lesson being for mari to realize that chloe wasn't EVIL and kindof pathetic where the show was pointing out things were more complex. heck wasn't kim afraid of spiders? and why would mari not know kim's crush was chloe back in season one in this case?

even more....it tries to brush aside mari's actions as some ptsd response when she was fine around water before and she had dated adrien FINE in those other timelines EVEN before she found out he was chat in that first timeline chat blanc. when plenty of kids don't realize they've crossed lines at times and don't need that level of ptsd or bullying for them to act like that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It feels even more off to me because a constant aspect of mari is she isn't very good at accurately figuring out someone else's feelings..and she tends to put her own feelings first most of the time...a point in glacatour 2.0 was that Mari didn't understand AT ALL how it was kindof fucked up for her to have chat help her practice confessing to a different boy when she knows SHE is chat's crush. and how she brushes over that chat was feeling worried if he made her feel disrespected as LB..finding it convenient and not thinking much on it...while showing her trust in chat and that she hadn't actually felt that way and just exagerated her feelings to make a point because she was more pissed at the city. calling him selfish when he was messing up the practice and that he should think about other people's feelings for once.

when chat brought up not having a childhood wish and being worried about it she said everyone has one and then assumed his wish would reveal his identity like her wish(which I get focusing on the akuma but not a good look).

How she feels entitled to chat's feelings at multiple points despite having said she doesn't like him that way for most of that(like weredad) or that he was pretending not to like her for her comfort later when he was trying to liek someone else(mari in that case).

even when she liked chat she didn't think about how he'd feel having been rejected all this time? how she had said it was due to her liking someone else but also that it was for safty reasons and her willingness to ignore those safty reasons for her own feelings. doesn't have questions about his civilian self...or that it was taking advantage when she found out chat was trying to get over her and she wanted to go for it as marinette for real unlike how chat realized doing that might be taking advanatge since she didn't know who he really was. heck even in the newyork special mari might have gotten chat noir back...bit she never expicedlty stated how she messed up handling the situation...since chat normally IS the more positive bounce back one...when he started to spiral she couldnt do the support that HE normally does.

We've Definity seen her support his feelings at times...with him feeling comfortable enough to reveal those feelings to her first...gamer, risk, that time at his mom's movies, defending his right to go to newyork ect, simon says, antibug...and she cares....

but much like emphereal a majour issue is mari forgets the impact her words or the lack of words have where SHE knew he was important and irreplaceable but forgot to TELL him that due to being distracted by her 'trick him out of his identity to give to su-han and reverse time so he doesn't know because if i'm honest he MIGHT say no despite having trusted my judgment on otehr occasions' and the from the weird time affects. in newyork despite defendinghis right to go on the trip..her original motiveis becuase SHE wanted her crush on the trip depsite her denial because she didn't want him alone with lila and then failed to say much when he was going away due to his father.

and even with luka..mari showed that despite him turning her compass...mari was kind of insensitive to his feelings and was prone to taking advantage of his understanding nature and avoided him due to ebing uncomfortable HERSELF even though he showed he we chill.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I love you bringing up how weird it is that they focus becomes more on adrienette rather than a focus on maybe more of adrien's issues...like I WOULD argue that mari has a entire support system in alya, tikki and ther others AND her parenst so Adrien isn't entirely her therapist...but its not a good look...yes from JUST a adriennette perspective it can feel nice to see adrien validate mari's feelinsg when he was obvious to her feelings for him for so long and her internal freakouts...but I'm also aware of the chat ladybug dynamic and how mari was BAD at communicating her feelings all this time...heck adrien feel for marinette ON HIS OWN....not from her wooing him...adrien found out her feelings through ANDRE THE ICECREAM MAN...acting out of character since he NEVER used names before..he had learned previously NOT to push his ships USING marichat as a example already and he had been FINE shipping them with other people AND self love before.

so mari never had to overcome her biggest hurdle when it came to this relationship....which was telling adrien her feelings herself and REALLY realize her actions COULD hurt him. never had to face consequences for LYING to his face about not liking him romantically and how its perfectly reasonable for adrien to have taken her at her word. not veen face consequences for lying about being into him as chat when she WASN'T at the time.

They have her SAY things like 'I haven;t been seeing him accurately' but they never actually put her in a scenerio where I'd believe she'd doubt how she's been handling her crush toward him. it felt like she was using it as a excuse to justify her backup up...like how she tried to say her feelings for adrien wuld make luka awkward after the breakup even though she and luka BOTH know her feelings for adrien WEREN'T the focus of the breakup at all and that luka was VERY understanding and that SHE is just trying to say she is caring about luka's comfort so she can avoid him for HER comfort. even her liking chat felt more like she was using chat to avoid her feelings AGAIN and because chat was just a great support. and the friends and mari have seen him a damsel and no one thought about how adrien could have been uncomfortable with how mari was handling her crush....

Adrien is very understanding, and he likes her romantically now officially rather than just being really fond...and adrien does tend to use romance to distract himself from his own issues....and he was genuinely happy to be relied on back in glacatiour 2.0.

but GOD is it frustrating knowing Mari WANTED to shower this boy in love..with her nerves being the thing getting in the way...but now that they are dating and adrien made the first move...adrien isn't really being showed in the love he deserves.

Adrien is GOOD at getting his feelings across...thats a strength of his and how he is better at support and listening than mari at times and he probably likes getting to express his feelings and knowing its returned where he doesn't really expect mari to show her in alot ove love...but than means if mari DID it would SHOW him that her feelings are the same and let HIM be the wooed one. as much as I feel for Mari's struggle iwth her feelings and adrien not knowing....at least Chat was able to make LB feel cared for to the point she didn't doubt his feelings. Adrien's spent the majority of the show feeling like LB doesn't like him back and also thinking mari doesn't like him that way either...heck adrien always assumed mari was such a good person who'd stand up for any of her friends and was so creative(which she is)...but he DOESN'T know he was often a motivational factor. which one one hand could be weird to learn...but could also be flattering when he is often a after thought for his loved ones with them not actively trying to spend time with him.

honestly, I wish instead of it being some bullying love ptsd...it was actually just ptsd due to felix looking like adrien and how trusting in who she thought was adrien led to her biggest betrayal...but her being unable to explain that because thats LB's trauma...not marinette's...show a consequence of the identity acting felix did.

and honestly the exercises to talk to adrien normally at THIS point in time? when mari has done those excersizes with tikki and alya and the like before to no avail? like adrien seem to think its a him problem...and it feels even weirder when we know mari was fairly normal and the MOST comfortable around chat...that he does have the capability to make her that level of comfortable...even when she knew nothing about him(chat)..but her perspective is off...like...mrai even acted wierd around chatwalker! how is it just a adrien issue at this point!

I'm also worried because while adrien is bias in mari's favor(both as LB and towards Mari) Adrien has some HARD pet peeves similar to kagami when it comes to certain lines being crossed in treatment.....being left out of the loop, kept out of important secerts involving him and assuming his opinion without asking and deciding for him for his 'own good' ...he can be understanding toward others feelings and circumstances...but he was also standing up for his own feelings and circumstances even before plagg arrived...if he finds out about the lies?...not good....he;s learned to try to put them aside at times and be more patient after catwalker even more...and alot of mari' flaws actually parallel aspects of his dad VERY strongly which the show doesn't address

...and mari tends to stumble HARD when SHE is the source of a issue...when she though alya would be upset she deleted the video, after the luka breakup, when breaking the news about chloe not being queen bee to chloe anymore ect.

And adrien tends to bottle those feelings up becuase he normally is able to talk himself through them...but when he reaches a breaking point?

I'm even more worried because most of the girls treat adrien as mari's love interest first and a friend second..and felix just showed how weak adrien's bond with his friends really are. and adrien has opened up to mari more than he has any of his other friends....not to mention his classmates have strait up admitted to not being that close with him while almost ALL of them tend to favor marinette and is closer to marinette who has been in the class longer and who tends to be more proactive when helping them with situatuons(due to being the main character). even is best friend didn;t say much when adrien thought mari hated him before at the wax musuem and didnt try to fix it or give adrien advise or try to talk to mari about how she was making adrien feel.

if adrien breaks up with Marinette...will Adrien be able to keep all his friends or will they all 'side' with Marinette? especially if they can't explain why adrien would be upset or breakup with her? wouldn't they be bias in mari's favor since they know how long she's liked him?

Would his feelings entirely go away? or would it be a thing where he still likes her but the hurt and betrayal of trust is too much?

would the show let us understand adrien's hurt is CORRECT or would the fandom villify him for not understanding and hurting Marinette when we understand why she made her choices?

Would they gloss over his hurt feelings and make him super understanding just so mari won't have to face being that wrong since they've tried writing her 'better'.

Even more Adrien is GOOD as being a natural so to speak...good at making the first move, trying to approach important topics, can put himself in other people's shoes and motives more accurately and be more understanding. heck Nino asked ADRIEN for advice despite knowing how Adrien was homeschooled and only had chloe as a friend for years and Adrien was good at it and was relatively normal similar to Alya when it came to confidence. Adrien tends to be more naturally positive. And talking himself through his emotions...and even understanding others...like felix when he first showed up or being a better listener to julieka...but it also means when he reaches a certain limit he CAN'T immediately talk himself through it...and while I love mari and she HAS gotten better..she is normally going through so much she doesn't really think about the other persons feelings until they bring it up first and she tends to be slow at giving him the peptalks because she's stilled used to him being more thick skinned.

Mari has helped validate Adrien's emotions on plenty of occasions...but sometimes I can't tell if its sincere or just because Mari likes him.

like maybe if they breakup Mari would then have to ACTUALLY work to regain his trust and feelings again?

Adrien is Marinette's Therapist, NOT her Boyfriend and it's Gross

Mental health struggles are no joke and, if you have those struggles, then you absolutely need a partner who will support you through them. That's why, at face value, Adrien supporting Marinette with her PTSD and anxiety is very sweet. It's what a good boyfriend should do. The problem is that Adrien is being written like her therapist, not her boyfriend.

Adrien has his own struggles with depression, loss, and paternal neglect. Yet none of these struggles are brought up once Adrien and Marinette get together. Instead, the relationship is all about her needs and struggles even though this season ends with Gabriel's take down, meaning that focusing on Adrien's issues would have made more sense from a narrative perspective. How much more powerful would the final have been if Marinette really understood Adrien, Emilie, and Gabriel's relationship?

But why do that when we can make everything about Adrienette instead? Why bother to mention Emilie when Marinette is a much better point of conflict between Adrien and Gabriel? After all, if we did that, then Adrien would have a life outside of Marinette and that would be, well, sigh, let's get into it, shall we?

In Derision, we learn that Marinette apparently doesn't have some form of anxiety or ADHD or any of the other things that people have theorized over the years. No, vanilla-Marinette is a totally relaxed, go-with-the-flow non-planner who only started planning after Chloe, Sabrina, and Kim gave her PTSD. Does this insult her character and make no sense? Yes, but let's not get into that. Let's just accept the retcon and look at the fallout of Adrien knowing that his new girlfriend has massive trauma that's mainly focused on romance and controlling situations.

The very next episode is Intuition. In it we see Marinette calling Adrien to show off her ability to do things without planning (or, at least, with less planning) and it's clear from context that this is an exercise that they're doing:

Adrien: Well... (his phone rings) Fancy that! Marinette! I like spending time with Marinette. (picks up his phone) Marinette: (on-call) Guess what I'm calling for: nothing! Can you believe it? I'm calling you randomly, totally out of the blue, for no reason at all! Adrien: So you didn't write down everything you might need to say to me based on everything I might say to you? Marinette: Not at all! Well... I did. I really tried not to, you know, but it was too hard! Anyhow, I limited myself to fourteen possible conversations, including this one! Adrien: Congratulations! Marinette: (on-call) Thank you! Adrien: And did you prepare questions for science class? Marinette: (on-call) Not-a-one! Not even for the live video conference we're doing with Max's mom on the super awesome Tsurugi space jet! I, Marinette, will improvise questions, unpredictably, without planning anything!

In the context of the show, this conversation is deeply concerning and I don't know wtf the writers think they're doing. There is no way in hell that a 14-year-old should be guiding his girlfriend through a therapy session or therapy exercise unless he has the guidance and approval of a trained mental health professional.

Seriously look at what Adrien is doing in this dialogue: Marinette tells him that she's called him without planning and he doesn't just say "that's great!" Instead, he asks if that's true, congratulates her for her mild improvement, and then prompts her to talk about another situation where she would plan things out. In other words, he's asking about the therapy homework that he's clearly given her or that they've decided on together. It's also clear that this isn't their first discussion on the topic because he's very comfortable knowing what to ask about to see if she's done her homework right.

Why was this homework chosen? Who knows! It certainly wasn't picked by someone with training! A therapist wouldn't tell you to avoid planning for a school assignment (something that we've never seen Marinette overplan before, but once again, we're ignoring the retcon). This scene would arguably be inappropriate for an established adult relationship, but a nascent teenage one? Absolutely not.

My SO and I have both done therapy and seen wildly unbalanced relationships. This conversation threw massive red flags for us on both fronts. This is not what a healthy relationship looks like. This is not a give and take. This is why you need a therapist to at least guide you through this type of situation or you will set yourself up in roles where person A is not getting their needs met because the relationship has an established dynamic where person A is the giver and person B is the taker.

This is especially true for a young relationship that's just getting its feet off of the ground. They're supposed to be in the honeymoon phase! More established relationships are better able to handle phases where one person needs more support than the other which absolutely happens and is totally normal. However, when those things happen, it's vital for the supporting partner to have their own support since they can't get it from their partner.

Miraculous denies Adrien this suport. In the very next episode, we get this:

Adrien: I've always seen Marinette acting funny in my presence. I thought that was just the way she was. I thought it was sweet. I thought it was just her charm. But now that I know it's because she loves me and she freaks out about telling me, I feel bad. Because it means that this whole time she's been uncomfortable around me, and I haven't done anything to help her. Kagami: But you didn't know. Adrien: It doesn't take away from her suffering. I just wish she could feel more at ease when she's with me. Otherwise, one day, it'll be too late and she'll give up. Kagami: What can I do to help, Adrien? Adrien: Thanks, but it's not up to you or anyone else to help. I'm the one who's gotta do something.

No! Adrien, you are not equipped to deal with this solo. Ask Kagami to help! Ask Alya to help! Ask Marinette's parents to help! There are times when it's okay to involve others in your relationship and this is one of those times! This isn't even a relationship issue! It's a mental health issue! I know we're flipping gender roles here, but it's not somehow cute or healthy just because a guy is trying to "fix" the girl for once. No one should try to take on that task. This is what therapy is for.

If therapy is not an option for financial or other reasons, then yes, sometimes you have to struggle through and loved ones can help, but in TV land? Especially aimed-at-kids TV land? Show the ideal scenario! At the very least, show a support network! And I mean actual support, not Kagami asking to help and Adrien shooting her down! Writers, you are making Gabriel's dislike of Marinette valid! You are making it so that she is dragging Adrien down! Stop doing that!

Adrien deserves love and support, too. Adrien deserves to be romanced. Adrien deserves more than a kiss and an "I love you" that he had to fight to hear! He never even gets one of the presents from Marinette's chest. She did more to woo him before they got together and it's such pathetic writing.

The fun of getting these two together is letting them do all the stuff they've always wanted to do! Let Marinette bring him macrons! Let him bring her roses! Let her enhance his wardrobe! Let him write her poems! Let them be a healthy, balanced, sickeningly-cute couple! It's fine if she's nervous at the start and takes a while to act normal, but this show takes it to a level beyond teenage jitters and it's not funny or cute. It's concerning.

All of these issues start with Derision's romance-based-PTSD retcon and it was the worst thing they could have done for the Love Square. It poisons the rest of the season and is why I just can't ship these two in canon even though I love what they could have been. They have established such a horrifically unhealthy dynamic that I can't see this ending well unless they get couple's therapy in the very near future and that's not even touching on the baggage that will come from the lies and still unresolved Ladynoir trauma.

As soon as Marinette has romance-based PTSD, she was incapable of being in a relationship until after she'd learned to manage her PTSD. (PTSD cannot be cured, btw, you just learn how to manage it and the symptoms can lessen.) The writers apparently knew that. It's why they gave her a therapist to support her as she worked through her issues and got to the point where she can say "I love you". His name is Adrien. Isn't he cute?

#ml season 5 salt #ml intuition #ml derision #ml perfection #I just wanted a cute romance not whatever the writers think they're doing #marinette #gabriel #marinette dupain cheng #gabriel agreste #adrien #adrienette #plagg #ladybug #LB #chat noir #kitty #catwalker #yin yang #the choices are WEIRD okay #relationships #tikki

[ilikelookingatthings]

Honestly its even weirder because Marinette has TEAMED UP with chloe of her own volition...not just as ladybug when circumstances called for it...but as MARINETTE. MAri and chloe seriously had a moment when tehy teamed up against kagami and mari had assumed chloe was harder on mari due to knowing mari had a crush on adrien...only to find out chloe had no idea and chloe deciding not to out the crush on her own. The show has also had chloe basically losing in almost all the episodes while things tend to work out for marinette.

even more it makes no sense for kim...like kim hasn;t been into chloe since season one where mari had no idea about who his crush was...and your telling me his crush was chloe all along and even though he's been over chloe for seasons and has a girlfriend and mari has actively tried helping him out and trusted him with a miraculous...and yet didn't see teh simularities to this situation where he hurt marinette? or wasn;t actuallt regretful and talked about how pretty chloe was infront of his girlfriend?

even more we've seen adrien be regretful over catacysming HAWKMOTH. how am I supposed to believe he'd get pissed enough to almost catasymsm kim? or believe that Ladybug would ACTUALLY believe that chat has it in him to hurt him instead of trusting he has some plan or something?

and whats the point of adrien saying he isn;t friends with chloe again when they ALREADY stopped being friends after the zoey episode?! and they never approached mending that bridge before?

Mari has ALREADY admitted her fear of vulnerability which is pretty normal...like NINO acted similar to her before when he had a crush on mari back in season one.

and we know mari tends to collect info to feel more incontrol..they don't NEED to make the bullying THIS bad to make her actions make sense.

I'd sooner believe that Mari's trauma and struggle around dating adrien this time was due to having been tricked by felix and having actually believing felix was adrien and being betrayed. with all the kwami's in her service being taken and given to hawkmoth and her having a panic attack...only she can't explain that as marinette becuase thats 'ladybug's' trauma...not mari's...so she has to make up a story to explain it.

heck I'd sooner believe this DIDN'T actually happen and was some weird time warp thing as a side affect from using sass.

and I understand even LESS why mari would back up alya or think alya being able to stand up chloe would last if THIS was how bad chloe was.

The thing that still pisses me off by Derision is just how inconsistent the plot is. Like if it's explained that Marinette has PTSD from Chloe, why didn't she have any other meltdowns in past episodes when it involved Chloe?

Another reason why the episode doesn't work because whenever Marinette was around Chloe, she would just roll her eyes and go "Oh great, this bitch again." She didn't panic, she didn't freak out, she never hyperventilated; and look, I'm no PTSD expert, so I'm not one to talk about how PTSD works, but if you want Marinette's mental health to be taken seriously, you have this explain in earlier seasons. Not to manipulate us to give us another reason to root for the Love Square and piss on Chloe's character. It's insulting to both the fans of the show and actual victims of PTSD.

You could have at least justified this by saying something happened to Marinette that caused her to block out this memory from her mind, but then you'd have the question of why she didn't do this for stuff like "Cat Blanc".

And remember, the girl who is so incompetent, she can't even pronounce the word "democracy" correctly, is the one who caused the most lasting mental damage to Marinette.

[ilikelookingatthings]

My face is having uncontrollable spasms. Great. It hurts really, really, really bad.

I think part of why I have trouble explaining pain to the doctor is when they ask about the pain scale I always think “Well, if someone threw me down a flight of stairs right now or punched me a few times, it would definitely hurt a lot more” so I end up saying a low number. I was reading an article that said that “10” is the most commonly reported number and that is baffling to me. When I woke up from surgery with an 8" incision in my body and I could hardly even speak, I was in the most horrific pain of my life but I said “6” because I thought “Well, if you hit me in the stomach, it would be worse.”

[ilikelookingatthings]

Someone Worte that he could not stand to see the Palestine flag anymore.

Sorry, but not sorry

Reblog daily

Free Palestine

I am not done yet

Only way to stop seeing this flag is when the oppression is over.

So you are tiered of this? you can end it, stop supporting Zionism!

[ilikelookingatthings]

cool

y'all ever reach the end of google

[ilikelookingatthings]

I like you bringing this up. Adrien is very much a understanding character. but people often forget that Adrien also has very strict lines he dislikes being crossed when it comes to treatment. When he feels someone is completely disregarding his feelings and opinions out of hand...he can be very understanding if someone chooses a different route than he advised or has different opinions but he HATES when someone dismisses his thoughts or that he SHOULD be considered at all out of hand.

In glacatiour him snapping wasn't about feeling entitled about LB showing up...he snapped at her because he was projecting his frustration about his dad canceling his outings with his friends (when that would obviously upset him), didn't bother showing up for the meal/didn't give Adrien an opportunity to argue or express how that's not fair and then expected Adrien to just practice piano like a good boy. Expected that Adrien would act in the way most convenient for what Gabe wanted when it was clear Adrien would have been upset at the whole scenario...so Adrien rebelled and left to set up the rooftop outing early since Adrien couldn't go to his friends since if he was caught it could make things more difficult in the future.

He was clearly not pissed about LB not showing when he talked to Marinette...he wasn't that happy about it of course but he expressed himself to Mari and wasn't really pissed....he only showed annoyance at LB because LB not showing up reminded him of his dad when she expected him to be completely in Akuma mode and she didn't mention and the meetup(which we know is because she is Marinette and just discussed it with him... so it's not in her mind to think about how not mentioning it at all would look to chat as LB). and because they often can't always talk after Akuma attacks due to the beeps.... Adrien felt like he had to defend the right for his feelings to not match what's convenient for LB because he didn't get the opportunity to defend that right to his dad.... which wasn't helped by the fact LB brought up the idea to pretend to be Lovey Dovey. A admittedly good plan...but also very much an insensitive one because his feelings ARE real, and he just expressed frustration at her and her bringing up that as a idea showed she wasn't thinking about his feelings and expecting him to just go along with what she found most convenient.

He only calmed down when LB apologized and validated his right to feel negatively...which allowed him to not need to validate his own feelings where he immediately agreed to the plan and admitted she wasn't in the wrong for not showing up...as tat when he stopped projecting his situation with his dad onto her.....as after all she only gave him a tentative maybe and she wasn't wrong for focusing on the akuma...but she showed she was willing to listen...and he was pretty content when she actually thought about his words/feelings even if her honest answer was turning him down. but what had trigged him was the perceived idea of her assuming how he's act would be in the way most convenient for her despite all the signs that shouldn't be the case.

...even more when WE know Mari DID actually find out his feelings were sincere like 3 minutes before the attack and that he had personally invited her which she had forgotten due to her sulking about how she had lashed out due to taking it personally about Adrien being unable to show up even though she had never expressed to Adrien that she had been looking forward to his company in particular and hadn't personally invited him and she knew he couldn't go due to his dad...Where Mari really should have known better than to have the lovey Dovey plan and how Mari's weakness is tunnel vision when she has a goal and losing site of other people's feelings.

In Siren people often judge Adrien harshly for almost giving up his miraculous during the fight due to being upset about not meeting master fu and LB not taking him...and while poorly timed it was....it did show Adrien's pet peeve was being dismissed out of hand and how Adrien had a standard for his treatment....Adrien had showed to be very trusting and open to side heros and the idea of master fueven though he hadn't met him himself and they had been fighting without fu's input uptil now...but Adrien had gotten upset because LB had dismissed the idea of him getting to go with to see master fu and when he asked her to bring it up she had seemed kindof reluctant...we know mari HAD brought it up to fu later like he had asked...but tone wise Mari had given off the impression tht he was being unreasonable for asking even though he was being expected to trust this stranger all of a sudden and him being left out of the loop....

Where it was revealed this one-sidedness HAD been bothering him(probably since collector when LB randomly brought up the idea his dad was hawkmoth out of the blue) even if he hadn't brought it up much until this one-sidedness really got on his nerves in siren...which makes sense...this is a voluntary position...uptil then LB and him had been equals on information and he was being shut out and expected to just go along with it.....which considering his dynamic at home where people often kept stuff from him which were important for 'his own good' even though he was very involved and people often make excuses...I thought Adrien having a hard line for treatment as a hero made alot of sense. where he calmed down due to Plagg but mostly due to fu actually showing up and validating Adrien was RIGHT in that he deserved to know/be included and it showed LB HAD actually told fu even though it had seemed like she might forget or hold back on it.

Adrien isn't naive about poor treatment and the slippery slope if you let people get away with it too much. Adrien very much knows his dad is paranoid and controlling and distant due to fear and grief due to the missing mom.....Adrien understands where Gabe's reactions come from....but he also doesn't lie to himself about how it doesn't mean Adrien should have to put up with it and he knows his dad is in the wrong...but Adrien also can't do much about it(aside from running off to make a point on occasion). So him keeping an eye out and being firm when he noticed the potential in him being kept out of the loop for no understandable reason was another example of a consistent pet peeve.

Adrien snapped at Chloe when Chloe had planned to pin Mari for pulling the fire alarm...and while that was Adrien defending his friend and what was right...what REALLY made him snap enough he said he'd stop being Chloe's friend was when he expressed Chloe shouldn't do that and Chloe blatantly said she was going to disregard what he said out of hand.

other examples are when his dad is being unreasonable. Like not letting Adrien go to the fieldtrip to London, or not letting Adrien go see his mom's movie in theaters, or not going to school, or when his dad wasn't coming down for too long on the first Christmas without his mom. Adrien would be firm in how in was unreasonable and sneak on the train, sneak off to the theater, run off to school multiple times and ran off during Christmas where he almost cataclysmed the tree at feeling dismissed.

and of course in Catwalker Adrien's major issue isn't about his romantic feelings...its that when he offered help that didn't cross any lines where he was just going to help pick up some miraculi from the side heroes that she knows that chat knows since her beeper made her short on time...LB dismissed it and when he asked why...instead of giving him a real answer...she snapped at him and acted like he was being unreasonable/childish and ridiculous to try to end the subject sooner even though they BOTH know that wasn't the case and how she used his feelings to dismiss his sincere offer of help even though his flirt earlier wasn't about him liking her and was actually him using something familiar to their banter to try to pretend their dynamic wasn't as shaky and he knows it was. Where he got so upset he gave up his miraculous and said so to her face even if she ran off not realizing what she had just greenlit. where plagg and chat relied on his pretending to be someone else(catwalker) despite him feeling wronged because Adrien DOES se not just being chat but his crush on LB to distract himself from his other problems and it was similar to pretend...and Adrien was trying to get past how he had a build up insecurity from trying his best to make it to Akuma attacks but not being able to no matter how hard he tried and being used less without understanding why which he had hidden from LB due to knowing she was going through alot...where he really only calmed down when he decided to focus on LB's feelings and pressure she was under and how its not personal on LB's part.

and we had seen his growing concern over her inconsistency about the rules where plagg had told him to not address it(probably due to plagg's not so subtle baggage when it comes to guardians) after rocketeer when Nino told civilian Adrien his and Alya's identities and seemed sure LB wouldn't mind/it wasn't a big deal even though chat had previously bared his emotions to LB at the end of scarabella...where it turned out he was understanding about her telling her identity and giving her miraculous to someone else...but he was GENUINELY really upset about how LB didn't give him the courtesy of a message or a heads up about it despite the fact she knows about Senti monsters and she had never had a replacement before...where he made himself calm down by the time he faced her in person.

Adrien didn't like when Nino dismissed his advice about the situation with Alya and how Nino was wrong out of hand either.

And we have seen Adrien clap back at Chloe from time to time when she doesn't pick up the hints he drops about her behavior(like origin).

Even his snapping at Lila is when lines of respect were crossed with Lila deliberately crossing them when she got Kagami akumatized after visiting his house and getting his bodyguard and Nathalie in trouble. and when he saw the maliciousness in her trying to trick chat away from LB during battle by pretending to be hurt.

Even with Felix...Adrien was pretty mature and understanding of Felix's emotions and him acting out but didn't just forgive him. Adrien took a stance that Felix's behavior toward his friends were acceptable. and did take some glee messing with felix a bit as chat during punisher..

What draws him closer to Marinette a lot of the times is he feels like she listens and validates how he feels(like in the Newyork special when Mari as the only one to really stand up and agree he had the right to want to go on the Newyork fieldtrip). but he also isn't aware alot of the time Mari has a bias due to her crush and he doesn't realize its him opening up first on his own.

Adrien is clearly very understanding that people don't always act great and that people often act off in the heat of their emotions if they don't have healthier alternatives or might not know how to handle their feelings in better ways. Chloe acting like her mom in a bid to gain her affection and cheating like her dad makes seem okay because on the surface they seem successful. and how Chloe genuinely hadn't realized how bad her actions were in antibug and wasn't actually lying about it. He knows his dad is grieving and is over compensating with control and distance due to fear of loss even if adrien knows his dad is paranoid and wrong. Adrien understood Marinette jumping to conclusions when they first met and accusing him falsely of the gum incident was due to her history with chloe and the situation not looking good from the little Marinette had seen....and adrein was vulnerable in telling this person who had shouted at him that he hadn't done the gum incident while also not invalidating Mari for assuming the worse due her history with chloe who he just found out has been acting like a jerk.

With Felix everyone assumed adrien was naive and unaware about felix being a jerk only for it to turn out Adrien WAS aware that felix was acting out and adrien both knew not to take it personally becuase it wasn't actually adrien's fault but also let felix vent because Felix was hurting ad didn't know how to express that properly and adrien was a easy target...adrien understood when people are hurting they lash out...while adrien put a foot down when felix hurt and got his frields akumatized and made sure felix understood that was NOT excusable behaviour...Adrien was still pretty mature about felix lashing out and not taking it personally and still protecting felix and offer if felix ever needed to call that adrien would be there after felix expressed remorse and that he would do better(even if taht remorse was false and just to get adrien to lower his guard so GABRIEL would lower his guard to steal the ring).

especially when contrasting how despite the friends know Adrien was going to have a terrible day with it being the anniversary of his mom's disappearance and being stuck with his emotionally distant father all day....even if that video wasn't actually Adrien...they didn't consider that Adrien didn't actually mean it or was lashing out due to having a hard time despite the video being out of character even though plenty of them have acted out toward others sometimes when they are feelings upset...and wanted to punish Adrien or put into question their friendship and Adrien's character immediately.

and even with Lila...Adrien's observation that someone lying could be doing it for attention and that trying to confront her the way Mari was doing would make Lila feel defensive and even if she was outed the way Mari wanted then what? would making Lila defensive and the rest of the class made at her fix the situation? No! Adrien understood it could push Lila further into darkness and that Mari would be a target...so advised that Mari not make herself a target and that Lila's lies would out themselves if Mari didn't push...which showed Adrien could look at things through Lila's point of view without assume lila was entirely bad until later when Lila actually started REALLY crossing lines....like how Lila got Nathalie and gorilla in trouble and tried messing with Kagami and had actively tried to lure chat away from LB during battle by pretending to be hurt. or when Lila tried to lie Mari out of the school. Adrien was understanding till lines were crossed where Lila disregarded Adrien saying Lila could actually try to be truthful and try to get along and she'd be accepted and where Lila actually tried hurting others...Adrien actively showing his no nonsense side of himself to Lila.

He disliked it when Ladybug dismissed him saying that the Santa wasn't an Akuma in the Christmas special as another minor example.

And we saw Adrien express how unhappy he was when his dad lied about what a commercial was for to get Adrien to model for it when it was clearly something bad that Adrien wouldn't have agreed to model for...and his dad knew that and just didn't tell him/lied.

and your right...we never DID see Adrien's reaction to how LB/Mari had lied about her motive in empherial and had planned to trick him out of his identity and tell Su-han without his permission while thinking if she DID tell chat the truth that chat would have refused to give his identity...with her plan to reverse time so chat wouldn't even know he told his identity to her while using what she felt he wanted to hear...and how despite her believing in safety...her admitting her identity because he turned out to be her crush where she never owned up to lying.

Adrien tends to believe Mari is fair and responsible...and that her decisions aren't that personal based and that she always means well...but in fact Mari is VERY much driven by her emotions and prone to being bias.

and your right Mari has ALOT of parallels to Gabriel that the show doesn't address enough...especially Mari's habit of deciding for other people alot of stuff while not being the best listener. Being a fixer type of person.....often putting other people's emotions on the subject as secondary to her goals/her own emotions on the subject until things blow up in her face or there is a significant lul which allowed something she missed due to disregarding how someone else feelings about a subject coming up.

Adrien is very understanding, and he already likes Marinette and ladybug twice over...and he knows if she messes up that she generally means well and will make up for if she makes a mistake....so there IS a chance that he could let it slide if mari is apologetic and realizes where she messed up since Adrien appreciates someone willing to be better.

But we ALSO know Adrien has a firm line and while forgiving and understanding alot of the time. He can also be firmer about certain boundaries similar to Kagami...everyone acts like Adrien has no spine and that he hesitates too much....but in fact Adrien has some strong similarities to Kagami where he can actually be pretty firm about his emotions on a subject when a lines has been crossed even if Adrien tends to be a bit more tactful about it and a bit more patient that Kagami most of the time....

I keep thinking about how alot of Adrien's friends and even Mari often see Adrien as some damsel in distress....that he must be protected and that he's naive....and how the people in Adrien's life tries to keep important information from Adrien under the guise of being for his own good...or assuming Adrien is too emotional/dramatic and that he doesn't understand other people(looking at you Mr luka-oh-adrien-is-so-surrounded-by-love-he-can't-figure-out-if-its-romantic/how he feels!).

When we know Adrien was stand up for his own feelings and what was right even before Plagg got involved in origins.

even more when as much as Mari is generally a good person and Adrien likes her and he has a fairly accurate view of her....Adrien often assumes the best of Marinette while WE know alot of Mari's first motives are selfish/self-serving ones where we tend to forget her original motive since a better motive comes along to cover it up...As much as Adrien feels comfortable and opens up to Mari by himself....Adrien ISN'T aware Mari had Adrien on a pedestal for a long time and as much as they say Mari like chat now. She hasn't ACTUALLY thought about civilian chat or put herself in his shoes when it comes to feelings...

...like I keep thinking about how in the New York special how touched he was that Mari validated his right to want to go on the trip...but how he isn't aware Mari's initial reason was due to not wanting him alone with Lila and due to her own crush on him(even if she was trying to be in denial)...hence why later when his dad wanted Adrien to leave New York...Adrien put weight on if Mari wanted him to stay or validate him coming again...which Mari did not due...both due to underestimating the effect she has on him and her shock due to chat leaving and how her initial reasoning had been HER based...not REALLY about his feelings even if that became a secondary reason.

and how Adrien isn't aware Mari often acted on her jealousy/possessive feelings at times despite telling him she wasn't interested to his face...even if Mari has improved her view on Adrien...we don't really see a moment where she REALLY realizes how she was acting was wrong, crosses boundaries and could hurt Adrien. Or how she teamed up with Chloe against Kagami before and got away with it or had initially been mean and a bit of a snoop to kagami on friendship day even if their friendship did eventually work out.

Considering he had told Mari about how his mom had gotten sick and they tried to pretend like she was fine infront of him despite him having eyes and her just 'disappearing'...and now the context his mom was in a coma and his dad was trying to save her but had left Adrien unaware of this through the show...and how Adrien is a senti-being....his mom got sick due to creating him and his dad ended up dying doing the wish anyway when what adrien wanted was to be there for him...

what if Adrien brought up why didn't it occur to LB/Mari to get the guardians to see if they could help without the wish getting involved...or how she didn't tell him about him being a sent-being like he couldn't handle it even though it would explain the times he couldn't go against his dad not being a personality issue!

Adrien ended up doubting himself which really made me think of the New York special and how Adrien was really confident in himself there and tends to be the most patient and understanding bounce back character in the show but Adrien ended up believing him wanting to be selfish 'go on the trip' was wrong due to his dad but also in how things blue up and escalated and Mari/Ladybug got him back...but hadn't actually addressed where those emotions from him were coming from and how Mari had un-intentionally backed up Gabriel's words.

It gets even more interesting theme wise once you've noticed that the kwami's have issues when it comes to treatment from the guardians (who tend to lock the miraculous away) and how shocked plagg was about Adrien expecting certain treatment and how understanding Adrien was toward plagg...and how the kwami's reacted to Mari letting them wander around her room.

and what with Adrien being made...and the initial childhood wish...which the fandom often interprets negatively...but I think points to the fact all Adrien had to do to be loved was be his families son...and how Adrien and his family are kind of bad at SHOWING him that care much like how Mari underestimates the importance of letting him know how important he is(like how Mari forgot to tell him during Emphereal when he missed an entire attack for the first time where she had intended to roast him and get him to try harder to show up...but she got distracted by her plan to get around his consent on his identity and then the side effects from the time powers...where SHE came to the conclusion of defending him to Su-han but she never got any of his importance across to chat despite agreeing with su-han about his importance).

Mari decided to keep the fact his dad was hawkmoth from him despite how it tied directly into Nathalie's health issues and his mom...let alone her keeping it from him as chat...let alone the sent being factor and him not understanding the importance of the ring and how we know Adrien ISN'T blind to how his dad sucks, but she is letting him believe a scenario.

My worry is will he think he's in the wrong for not forgiving her and that he should be more understanding when he knows she means well and that she struggles with difficult topics? and this is a difficult topic?

would the show frame him as being in the wrong if he's not okay with this? We saw him put his hurt aside in catwalker because he values her and was reminded, she is dealing with a lot.

Personally, I'm even more worried about what if Adrien tries to use the wish to save his loved ones by using his existence as collateral?

Will Mari have to face the dilemma of does she respect his wishes or try to get him back against his wishes like hawkmoth because SHE loves him?

Would Adrien find a way around the situation without the wish?

Would her actions and her being LB make him doubt her feelings for him because he knows she meant it when she wasn't interested in him those other times? Would Mari avoid Adrien like she tends to do with harsh conversations like how she handled Luka? Since Mari never had the growth of going for Adrien and confessing her feelings since Andre the ice cream man stole the moment and Adrien made the first move again?

Would the show actually Adress how Mari had treated Adrien as a love interest first and a friend second and like he was a celebrity crush (even if it was due to fearing vulnerability herself which Adrien is understanding towards?).

Honestly, I almost wonder if Kagami will spill the beans since this IS a important subject at least about the senti-being aspect and Adrien might piece things together from the clues.

On one hand I DO think a breakup would work since trust is important and Adrien has learned that to make people take his feelings seriously, he often has to run away or make a scene of some kind.....on the other Adrien does like her twice over and he can be VERY understanding, and he's lost so much...so WOULD he actually do a breakup?

I think it certainly would be shocking and would make ALOT of sense if he did if his trust was breached like that when a major reason, he was drawn to civilian Mari in particular is he thinks Mari listens to him and respects his feelings. Mari letting him believe the lies not just as Adrien and his girlfriend but as chat with LB could have him unable to dismiss the pattern with how other people, he trusts keeps important info from him...saying is for his own good when it's really about their own feelings on the subject.... considering even Felix falsely believes Adrien is to nice and naive and Adrien knows he cataclysmed his dad as chat....

It could go so many ways.... especially when the show tends to have Adrien keep his feelings close to his chest until he blows up about it...where the signs were there but we often miss the buildup and that unlike Mari...despite how open Adrien appears he is actually good at hiding certain feelings.

I think it could get even more interesting consider how big a role Mari plays in the friend group...it's not like Adrien doesn't have friends but most of the girls treated Adrien as Mari's love interest first and for most. Even Nino tends to put Mari's feelings on the matter first. and Felix kind of proved Adrien doesn't have that strong of a bond with his friends.

I feel like your right the show tends to dehumanize Adrien the most sometimes...but I actually think we see they are actually pretty consistent in a build up for Adrien that Mari(and most of the fandom/audience in turn) don't notice......

Which could leave a much bigger impact BECAUSE Adrien tends to be so understanding and is usually bias in her favor...if the show REALLY sits in his feelings and where Mari was wrong in this where Adrien ISN'T being unreasonable about his feelings and right to feel the way he does...after all the other times if the show shifting away or trying to draw attention from Adrien's feelings on the matter or having us assume he'd only ever be happy with a reveal and understand/support her choices entirely....what if they are building to a scenario where he is upset with her?

Where then Mari has to face.... does she work to earn back his trust or does she let the situation sit and wallow since her biggest weakness in being unable to say the right things when its needed most of the time...especially the more she cares.

I feel like the fandom is ignoring the fact that Adrien is under no obligation to forgive Marinette.

Regardless of her reasons for lying to him what the finale establishes is that Marinette as a character is not trustworthy to Adrien specifically.

In that Adrien trusted her and she failed. Not failed to defeat Monarch but, much more importantly, failed his trust in her.

To the point where the best thing Adrien's narrative can do for his character is break up with her.

The writers established so many parallels between Marinette and Gabriel that at this point Adrien extending forgiveness wouldn't be a sign of his own development as a person but a return to his fawning trauma response.

Said parallels ignorantly reinforced by the writers constantly forcing Adrien to put aside his own needs and emotions in favor of supporting his "partner". (Syren, Kuro Neko, Risk)

Support the writers never allow Marinette to return.

So yeah, I think they should break up.

I'm so serious.

Ephemeral's whole premise is Marinette taking advantage of Adrien's trust in order to learn his identity so she can tell it to Su Han.

Catwalker is literally just Adrien fawning in a vain attempt to be trustworthy. The inciting incident being Ladybug not trusting Chat Noir when he asks to take on more responsibilities. Kuro Neko ending with nothing resolved and the idea that Adrien as a hero is superfluous reinforced in his head.

It's not just Marinette's pattern of behavior that contributes to this.

Adrien's relationships with those around him are frayed specifically because of the Guardians' rules. He values Ladybug's trust in him so much that Adrien is willing to hurt himself to follow what is expected of him as the holder of the Black Cat Miraculous.

But no one else is.

I mean that from a writing perspective not a character one.

Nino and Alya are revealed to each other due to necessity. Marinette breaks down and reveals herself to Alya.

And Adrien is still alone. Still expected to follow the rules that keep him isolated from his meager support network. Still expected to just be okay.

He has a girlfriend now! That means everything is fixed! No need to worry about his best friend calling him annoying to his face!

It's long been a fandom theory that Marinette doesn't see Chat Noir as "real".

And this is reinforced several times when she learns that Chat Noir found out something she kept from him, apologized, and then... changed nothing about how they function as a "team".

After meeting Scarabella and learning that someone knows Ladybug's identity Adrien is mad sure. But he goes right back to fawning. To saying that "it's okay" because he has so little self worth. Because the writers reinforced the fact that he is unnecessary.

And that's because the writers don't see Adrien as his own character. Don't see him as a "human" character least of all after literally dehumanizing him.

#ml recreation #adrien agreste #ml season 5 #ml analysis #ml writers salt #ml writing critical #Plagg #Tikki #Marinette #Mari #marinette dupain cheng #LB #Ladybug #Chat noir #Catwalker #Gabriel #gabriel agreste #Lila #liar #wish #felix #kagami tsurugi #sentibeings #sentimonsters

[ilikelookingatthings]

I caught up a bit further in the manga(around say chapter 17 now) and I'm going to let out some more thoughts. It seems the brother skipped out on his trip..possibly pretending to be sick or making sure e didn't treat himself so his side effects would worsen...Either way it shows he's still sneaky as ever and still not that enthused to sociallize with his peer group. He's rejected the pretty girl who he had been letting get close to see if you make Mai jealous...which he doesn't actually know worked to some degree as Mai still seems to be more in denial about her own potentially romantic feelings for her step-bro. Which is a bit fascinating because people don't entirely match the version of themselves she remembers from that manga she read in her previous life...but there are definitely still hints...like she seems more cheerful and goofy than her manga counter part who DEFINITLY had a brother complex/feelings for the bro. but hints of it are definitely still there even if she knows about his lack of feelings and the risk it could pose to herself and others.

her brother took her to this art exhibit...and apparently its based on some paintings...not going to lie...I didn't really understand it since the manga doesn't give us alot of context...but aparently its painting showing someone going through what the bro does...killing smaller animals...growing to bigger animals..which would trigger a crime spree and killing people...which eventually leads to disdain, hatred and that person who did all that dying and being disected by others it seems...where he hug Mai and seems to want to leave....is he afraid of that aspect of himself now?

That its potentially the future he is destined for because he was born the way he is...even if Mai is shifting that fate and bit and trying to interrupt it...whenever we are in the bro's point of view its fascinating to see she is both not making much progress to shift from that fate...but also making ALOT of startling progress in affecting him in ways he certainly didn't expect.

It gets even more interesting because he sort of came across his birth mother again...someone who started to sense something was abnormal about him...and who he decided had to go for trying to catch on...where he pretended like his mom abused him which resulted in his dad spliting from the original mom and taking the kid with him...eventually leading to his dad remarrying to out main character's mom who already had a daughter.

Objectivly her son ruined her life, marriage and got her blamed for something she didn't do which is understandably horrifying...I 100 percent get why the mom is on edge around her eldest son(especially when she lost her new son and got found by our main guy).

Its fascinating because on one hand the mom is DEFINITLY right to be worried and scared. he ruined her life and reputation...she was right on the money that the teach who got stabbed nearby associated with his school had been led to the area where the serial killer was by her eldest son and that his remorse is still very much non-existent for that. We know that he had the destiny to potential set up a weird killing game with his classmates and murder his sister.....and that it would have been triggered seeing a dead cat...and that until recently he had been killing bugs. Even with the slight shift due to Mai he still had thoughts like wanting to kill the guy who had a crush on Mai or seeing others like bugs or nuisances.

But on the other hand it feels unfair because it genuinely was just a coincidence and WE know he really was just going to help the lost kid get to his lost guardians or someone who could help like a police officer. He definitly saw the situation as kindof annoyed...bt he was still genuinely going to help...the mom also hadn't seen him since he was a young child...and is immediatly treating him like a complete monster...when as terrifying as he is...he still hasn't actively hurt anyone himself yet...he helped that one guy with a crush on his sister solve a family situation and sent him away..not giving into the instinct to kill yet. He's definitly ride playing with the feelings of that one girlin his class...but arguably she still got her own hopes up and he never actually said he liked her and him helping her pout DID help her integrate into the class better which was something she struggled with. For all his mom knows he could have changed to some degree...and he is still a teen....as scary as his mentality is...he genuinely needs help to get out of that mindset and WE'VE seen its not completely too late as he IS starting to feel things like care and remorse....even if its just a starting point. He was genuinely curious and he broke did that plan to make him OG mom leave was definitely fucked up..but he was also a young kid at the time.

like on one hand what he did was completely fucked up and it makes sense for his OG mom to be alarmed and scared...on the other there is this sense of.....pity? I feel for him because that was his mom and she was scared of him rather than thinking he needs help or could improve where she assumes there is no way for him to chance at all...and it kind of stings when she acted that way towards him when he honestly was just going to help her son when he got lost.

It brings a fascinating though when you compare how the mom reacted finding out to our main character/his step sis reacts to his truth self...Mai still wants to help him...she understands how horrible it must feel to be interested in nothing... but the one thing that does peek your interest is a cultural/moral taboo. The bro is REALLY good at passing as a normal person. He's popular, helpful, seems like he can be a good friend ect...and will do good things because they are what people are supposed to do even if he doesn't really care.

But what I find most fascinating is our main girl seems to want him to get better and also understands how difficult it would be...so just wants to try to surprise him so he won't be bored since she knows that lack of feelings is why he clung to his original interest...but the bro seems to almost be harsh on himself at other times....he KNOWS he's messed up. He;s said things like people like him should just die or disappear...he doesn;t know our main girl knows his true nature...but she DOES so when he says that its brings a question of how does he see himself?

Even more since she got hit by a car(and survived remember) he view of death as entertaining had been warped as well...he is now REALLY protective of Mai...he's gotten some affection/likes her now...definitely possessive as well...he fears her finding out his true self because he thinks he'd face rejection(understandably) as a person.

but now he might have a hint she might be a little aware of it because he saw her talking with another guy in her class who has been in her class from a young age(honestly he is cute and I like him and I'd definitely ship it because the dude is right on the money that something is wrong with the brother and it could put the sis in danger). The guy from the class definitely has a crush...so he would understandably be bias against the bro... especially when he noted that the bro before the progress didn't actually care for the sis...literally felt nothing...and the bro DID delete the message that the dude had sent to Mai out of both jealousy and revenge for the sis sneaking into his computer(which she did to check if he was making any plans for the death game).

I'm both torn because the classmate IS right on the money and has the right to be concerned...especially with the bro being focused on Mai now and how the bro hasn't changed enough where we can be sure she'll be safe(we are getting hints of plans like keeping her with his forcefully bouncing back and force potentially due to hints of the future since she will apparently 'fail')....on the other there IS progress and how the bro genuinely felt sick when he had a dream about killing her and that the classmate also has the ulterior motive due to liking her himself...and he said that trying to hurt her even if he WAS right the bro hadn't been interested before.

Its also interesting to me because what does MAI feel about this scenario? she doesn't seem interested in the classmate romantically even if I genuinely think they'd be cute...she is FULLY aware of the risks of her brother and how messed up he is/can be...I don't think she's in love with her brother yet or thought about what she personally wants entirely past trying to stop her brother from spiraling into a serial killer which would of course stop herself from dying.

I think she's caught on his behavior around her has shifted a bit...but she hasn't realized the romantic interest yet and it seems she is holdback to some degree due to not wanting to get hurt expecting emotion from someone who genuinely struggles with them at the same time. Her best friend seems to have caught on there is some interest at least.....which she seems fine with along as Mai is happy...and the classmate is interested and understandably doesn't like the bro..which probably IS healthy to have more people actually being aware...you know...aside from just our main character, his OG mom and the grandpa when most of them are trying their best to pretend like they haven't caught on....

luckily because the bro thinks Mai might be a little aware..so it might protect the classmate from strait up being murdered(even if it seems he did threaten him).

Its so fascinating because honestly, I SHOULD be rooting for Mai to just survive and get out of there away from her bro right? possessiveness definitely is a red flag and even loving the yandere doesn't mean you'll be safe...but on the other there IS some progress and I'm kind of curious how the big bro would react if he finds out she knew all along and she still cares? I almost think he'd be pissed her self-preservation instinct is so small because ANY reasonable person who cared would think she should stay away.

but I also think Mai does kind of like him back...and these feelings seem like the best route to progress and change for him which could be hard for him to get when he's so good at passing/acting that actually genuinely feelings the feelings are still new/fresh.

and it gets more interesting when we know it was a sort of manga in her previous life...someone deciding he would be the way he is for that manga to work...I'm worried because dudes becoming yandere and thats dangerous for her..especially when possessiveness kicks in...and when I don't think he'd WANT to believe she understands him and genuinely still wants to be around him.

should I root for her to be with the classmate who honestly seems more healthy? Do I pity him because he was born this way and people when they know see him as a monster? that he seems to see himself as a 'monster' somehow at the same time...Do I root for Mai to return his feelings as well? when there is a strong chance he won't really be 'fixed' so to speak. Can we trust he wouldn't kill someone eventually? Not to mention what about the fate considering the manga based on their reality? is she still destined to die? how would he feel knowing another him DID do all that and never realized care for her like he did?

So I read 11 chapters of a fascinating manga called I reincarnated as the little sister of a death game manga’s murder mastermind and failed and its interesting.

I have some nostalgia since I HAVE read a couple of manga with the plot of students stuck in a school having to face off and situations that can cause their death or fight eachother while trying to solve how to get out and why everything is happening so I instantly related to Mai(the main character and step sister). What fascinating is she notes there ARE differences in personality and little details in the reality she lives in that doesn’t match one for one from the manga and its not like it was some change she hadn’t picked up after she did something after regaining her memories…she seems to have kept her original personality of being rather cheerful. But she also picked up important aspects are the same….such as the box of bugs that she would catch and bring her brother torn up in the same hiding place as the manga said it would be.

I like how because she cares for her brother but this insite she got from reading the manga about him gave her some insight into why he did what he had done and how it escalated…she doesn;t hate him and tries to help her brother by trying to minimize it escalating and trying to give him something else to be interested in because he startes the deathgame in the manga out of boredom.

so she tries to give him ‘surprises’. The thing that peaked my interest the most though is we do end up seeing some chapters from her brother’s perspective…and that her surprises aren’t surprising him at all…he thinks she is acting weird but his interest hasn’t really been peeked..which I thought would dishearten me….but ironically its one fo her first pranks(which was to throw herself off a bridge into the water) which I think sparked a change.

See apparently he woudl often imagine hurting things and he had thought pushing her off would be entertaining and one of the signs of him being horrible in the manga was him actually pushing her off one day….

but by jumping herself she fullfilled his erge of seeing her fall off the bridge AND surprised him in that it had actually bored him and wasn’t as entertaining as he thought..and it took away him giving into a big erge since she had already done it.

This means he will have a few more herdles that he hasn’t jumped yet so his escalation will go slower….and her clinging just a little less means he has less chances of finding her annoying while not suspecting that she has figured out his nature. her actions can seem like they aren’t having the affect she wanted but we do end up seeing she gets his interest in a different way as he notices that she tends to prank him using herself(aside from the weird bentos) and that it might have peeked his interest by using that he is already interested life and death and wounds….she was trying to surprise him…

but what caught his interest was at times she would get hurt by her pranks(like bruises and stuff or could be seen as odd) but that she would enthusastically continue to do more pranks. I like how it used one of teh few things he is interested in to make that connection of his interest in her increasing rather than is just simply being surprised.

Not gonna lie I was worried when we heard that a killer was lurking around and not getting caught..what if it was her brother…but we find out he WASN’T the killer…but that he was obsessed with trying to see a dead body and could predict where the victims might be with him not getting there in time to see it happen…we us seeing signs of slight care for the sister in getting rid of a teacher who kindof assumed stuff and took teh gift she ws going to give her brother…but he someone found a way to get that teacher to be around a area so she could get targetted by the killer…which is chilling even if there was relief she didn’t die and that he wasn;t actually the one attacking anyone.

and then she knows when he sees a cat get run over he is suppoused to get even crazier….so she is able to stop teh cat from getting run over….but SHE gets hit by the car right infront of him…and from her perspective she doesn;t understand why he is acting a bit odd after she comes back from the hospital…but WE get to see from hsi perspective…she had fullfilled part of what he had wanted to see, someone getting hurt right infront of him (he thought she was dead for a bit), but much like that scene where she jumped off the bridge he didn’t feel what he thought he would feel(which was entertainment or a sense of satisfaction he would get from killing bigs).

He felt ‘unpleasant’. his heart hurt and he was so confused as to why becuase its not like her surprises entertained him. heck he had been around her so people would think he was even kinder than he was and be even less likely to notice the signs he isn’t actually caring yet he was flumoxed that he foudn ehr hit by a care unpleasant.

mind you she didn;t die so part of him did wonder fi the issue was maybe that she hadn’t died but he’s clearly more protective afterwards after she was hurt. checking on her phone, going out with her and being close when crossing the road……and he tried killing his bugs again but he seemed upset like somehow it made him feel bad…its like ehr almost dying tainted it becuase maybe he got a sample of what he thought would be satisfying made him feel differently than he wanted.

whats fascinating is he does eventually figure out that he cares about her and that he might love her(it made me laugh because if I was surprised, HE was doubly so, especially since he got one of THOSE~ type of dreams where he stubbed his foot after waking up.

He still doesn’t change as he still has killing temptations and he is smart as he knows he is abnormal yet doesn’t want to change but still wants her and he knows it woudn’t be healthy for her…..

yet its kind of funny to see him come up with plans to see if she could like him like making her jealous by bringing a study group where a beautiful girl he knows tends to get envy and hatred from other girls… likes him. yet our girl obviously supports this crush thinking it could help her brother and teh rest of the class and hersef avoid that bad ending if makoto gets more ranges of emotions…unknown he ha dalready fallen for herself and was getting a slighly wider range of emotions…wth him even getting jealous as one fo teh guys gets a crush on Mai XD his logic didn;t even pick up it was obvious that Mai wasn’t interested in the guy.

the bro being a bit childish and spending more time with her by saying she needs to study more to join his school.

and whats even more fascinating is SHE is technically more aware of his nature than he is of hers….she also has insight into herself as even if she doesn’t have the same attitude as the sister in the manga she read….the other version of her had a brother complex….and her now did use to dream of marrying her brother…like she genuinely was rooting for the bro and the female lead….but WE actually can pick up she isn’t as unaffected as she seems…she isn’t exactly happy at the idea he might hear the female lead’s confession despite her acting like she supports it. she breathes a sigh of relief when the female lead wasn’t hanging around her brother. and honestly if she was nromal…you’d think she’d distance herself consider most would…especially when she KNOWS a different version of him killed a version of her as a fact….but nope…we might be having signs she likes him to…she isn;t quite there yet(thankfully). but it really interesting to knows this and know the brother semi thinks he is failing at grabbing her attention and that she is in the dark of his true nature.

Heck before when he would want to see something die it fet more impersonal…like it wasn’t about the person specifically…….but now it feels very personal…maybe its the plot armour saying she has to be his first victim but he feels like he shouldn’t kill someone who isn’t Mai…or at least Mai should be his first even while he clearly wants her safe.

but he also clearly personally wants to kill the dude who has a crush on Mai from his study group despite and doesn’t really pick up its clear Mai isn’t interested in that guy. we see him genuinely imagining killing the guy in many ways…heck I thought he died somewhere offscreen was what was coded for the school transfer…but he genuinely did choose to transfer the guy…and he did it while being nice and ‘helping’ the guy get the scholarship to cover costs so they would have more for the hospital bills for the crush guy’s mom.

he could have clearly just pushed him onto the train tracks…but what I like is i actually wonder if it was mai’s accident that save the guy from the bro taking that easy way out…because the bro might have some ptsd from her getting hit by that car and associated it with it being unpleasant. AND we know that guy had been destined to die in the original story…so him being transferred means at least one guy is officially saved.

the bro doesn’t quite know how to feel taking this smarter less bloody route to get rid of a rival….but its definitly giving me alot for food for thought about the developents that Mai hasn’t quite caught on to.

These could backfire or work in her favor…mind you since he is touching on Yandere…he is at least semi more selfaware than most…but definitly worried since he could snap at anytime.

mind you I thought I would be more distressed about the potential ship since brother and sister…even if they aren’t actually related and met when they were 9 and 10 years of age…and lets face it all the red flags…but I realized that hey at least they aren’t related IS a successful bar to pass when it comes to some manga and if this can save lives….lets hope she can at least save everyone ad herself from death and if the feelings are mutual its at least way better than if it was onesided.

oddly enough I’m getting weird vibes from the female lead for has a crush on the brother. I think she is aware that Mai could be a rival for the brother(as the bro did mention they weren’t blood related to try to get her to be more active with flirting infront of Mai to try to get Mai jealous)…but if she figured out Mai could have feelings before even Mai knows…female lead could have some redflags of her own…..definily more worried because the brother knows the female lead(who was knows as teh beautiful lonewolf type in the original manga) is actually just a bit socially awkward…so him helping her integrate with the class gives her all the reason to have feelings for him and out him on a pedistal…so if the female lead potentially blames Mai for the bro not being interested…things could get messy.

this is a fascinating manga…since morally the brother is a walking red flag..but technically hasn’t done anything of the murder viarity to anyone yet and was born this way.

I keep thinking of teh conversation the brotehr had with her at teh grandpa’s house where she was defending her friend liking her fashion choices as its not like it hurts anyone..and she actually thought that is someone likes things like killing and the like it must be hard because what they like isn’t socially acceptable as that maybe if they compromised and got the erges out in ways that don’t actually hurt anyone it wouldn’t be too bad…while her bro who we know is tehone who actually wants to kill people or animals raises that those people would be better off dead as it doesn’t change what they could do.

cuz honestly he should get professional help or something…but it does make me wonder about some people just born this way and how both of their views might clash. but also about how people can genuinely love people like this and what happens about those people born like this when it comes to relationships and how they can blend in.

it reminds of cheese in the trap where one of the male leads clearly has some manipulative tendencies and emotion issues but it raises of he can love why can’t he try his best to love people or have a family? and how much you can get better or be motivated and what it can actually mean though this one is one of those ‘he hasn’t done extremely wrong yet’ ,and us knowing for SURE how bad it could get for him as a individual to snap.

#Mai #I reincarnated as the little sister of death game manga's murder mastermind and failed #manga #brother #webtoon #sister #half-brother #half-sister #manhua #yandere #yandere male #soft yandere

[ilikelookingatthings]

Some pictures of the Eclipse

#eclipse 2024 #eclipse #Sun

[ilikelookingatthings]

[ilikelookingatthings]

I enjoy this. look at her smile! and I LOVE her hair and earrings. and dick looks like he could do flips...i don't know how but he does.

Haven’t drawn any dickkory in a while - thought I’d correct that this Valentine’s Day 💌

[ilikelookingatthings]

My dog, Indy(Indiana Jones)

She is old, adorable and gave us a scare because her legs have started to collapse but she's ours.

#Dogs #Pets #Indy #Indiana Jones #Specifically named after the kid version of the character from his mini-series

[ilikelookingatthings]

oooh YES! I love how you back up all your thoughts with evidence and where you noticed shifts in their dynamic. I'd like to throw in some thoughts into the mix as well and see how you'd react to them.

For me...I think as much as Nathalie cares about Gabriel...what she finds MOST attractive about him is how passionate he is about saving his wife. how dearly he loves her and how far he is willing to go for Emilie. I actually thought she was invested in him saving Emilie from the begining and wasn't really fighting him on that once it was revealed she knew the whole time.

Like Emilie is clearly a wonderful person who had a strong presence in the Agreste household...so from a pratical point of view because she cares about Adrien and Gabe...it makes sense Nathalie would support Gabe trying to save his wife when arguably their plan minimizes damage.

(as 'Hawkmoth' is a persona. they use negative emotions because you need the victim to agree to the powers and its easier to get someone to agree when they are feeling negative and someone backs you up or seems to validate how you feel. The goal was to create a 'villian' who would be attention grabbing and would cause the creation and destruction miraculous to be deployed to fix the situation which was a common pattern through history. Gabe simplified what he wanted from power to save his wife to power to not risk the akuma victims finding out about the wish but also because his motive is something seperate from theirs and its easier to get across. If he lost they had the assurance that the creation miraculous would fix all damage, that his hawkmoth persona was known so the akumavictim would have someone else to blame and no memories to minimize trauma....while if they won Gabe could then use the creation miraculous himself to purify his akuma after releasing the akumavictims power, reverse all the damage and then use hi wish to wake up or heal his wife. its not perfect but from their view pretend to be a villian to force the creation and destruction miraculous out of hiding because they couldn't find them through other means nor had anyone to go to for help since the guardians were gone was practical way to save the mom).

Its clear the Emilie and Gabe seemed to rely on roles with how they parent Adrien as Gabe seems to follow some older views on father dynamics...being the disipline guy while the mom handled the emotional side of things more...instead of switching more often to get good at both roles...which resulted in Gabe more desperate to safe his wife since Gabe feels out of his depth.

I feel like Nathalie clearly senses this aspect as its implied Adrien already knew his dad was relying on Nathalie to choose the birthday gifts and that Nathalie generally chooses a pen...but also that its not so ingrained that Nathalie doesn't do if it she isn't asked as she didn't have a plan when Gabe asked her to get a gift for Adrien back in bubbler.

I don't think Nathalie is THAT kind to be honest personally as she DID steal Mari's gift and didn't try to get a backup gift for later incase Adrien found out...and she doesn't really try to fight for whats best for Adrien on her own without a push from Adrien trying first multiple times. but I also like that aspect as she seems pretty practical and people are people. Though I think that works in her favor since she was willing to be a villian as well....

I actually REALLY like how you brought up the switch in dynmaic were Nathalie was running the show more later and seemed to be bolder and have firmer views on how far she would go.

Like Gabe on the surface seems like he's just completely the worst but I think whats fascinating is I noticed Gabe doesn't ACTUALLY see it as people being in danger becuase Gabe has the illusion of control beucase he can take teh powers away at anytime and becuase he can talk to his akumavictim and do that weird zao headache to direct them into listening to him....Gabe doesn't actually see thinsg as anyone including his son as ACTUALLY being the danger. He has the fact that Ladybug's power can reverse all the damage...but we've also seen Gabe REALLY lose his cool when teh control is lost. like in startrain and the akuma was too far away and he found out his son was on the startrain train and he could do nothing for example. or more when Gabe was sure Adrien was Chat....We understandably see it as horrifying that Adrien jumped off the tower and that Gabe put his son in danegr using gorizilla...but it felt like Gabe was SO sure of things going to plan an dthat he was right...it didn't occur to him what would happen if he was wrong until Adrien was falling and Adrien didn't transform for a while...where as son as it really hit him...Gabe had gorizilla release LB to save him. Gabe is still bad...but it points to a perspective issue...GABE knows all he wants is to save his wife and that he'd reverse damage if he won but doesn't really understand that just becuase Gabe can take away the powers or talk to his akuma doesn't mean the danger isn't REAL.

I think a main reason alot of people see chemsitry is also because Nathalie is a great support and she sees Gabe's vulnerable side and how hard he is taking failing to save his wife. It actually reminds me alot of how Marinette reactions when she feels she had failed someone...taking it really personally and how fragile Mari can seem at points...and a type of power you can feel as someone being the person that vulnerable person is relying on.

I think what stood out to me as well in Nathalie and Gabe;s dynamic was Gabe WAS going to give up being hawkmoth for a bit there...but Nathalie encouraged him back into it....which I thought had fascinating implictaions because we could tell that Nathalie likes Gabe and if he moved on....it coudl tehcnially open a chance for her to be with him..it shows she wants emilie back not just for Gabe but becuase Natalie herself wants her back....

but I actually wonder...what would it be like to fall/love someone who is already married. Would there be guilt to it? I actually thought Nathalie encouraged him to be hawkmoth again because if she DIDN'T it would run the risk of 'did she encourage him to give up because its whats best or did she let him give up because it would give her a chance to be with him?. I always thought that she was more hardcore at times than him not just for desperation(especially afetr she got sick, or because she liked him) but because she was trying to prove she was all in for getting her back to avoid any guilt.

I feel like she had probably gotten over Gabe romantically enough by the time the show started but the more desperate and vulnerable Gabe got as he tried and failed to save his wife...started strengthening those old feelings.

Something I also found fascinating is the STRONG parallels that Gabriel had with Ladybug and Nathalie had with Chat noir.

Both Mari and Gabe have a bad habit of not being very sensitive toward other peoples feelings. they aren't the best at accurately putting themselves in someone elses shoes...especially the more stressed they can be or when they have a personal goal. often overlooking or not realizing an obvious way they could be dealing with another person's feelings as a flaw. especially their tunnel vision when they have a plan and how personally they can take thing when they feel like they've failed. both needing someone to be understanding and show support in low moments. for Mari it was Chat when she felt like she messed up after the loss of fu for example. While for Gabe..Nathalie was a strong support when the times Gabe would feel like he was failing to save the mom.

Both Gabe and Ladybug went after their respective 'partners' chat and Nathalie which showed genuine care but also brought to mind Nathalie being a partner to Gabe like Chat is to Ladybug...but also gets interesting because 'Adrien' actually tends to parallel Emilie as Gabe Loves Emilie like Mari likes Adrien...while both Nathalie and Chat are cared for but the love isn't fully acknowledged as romantic towards them.

It gets even more interesting considering Ladybug's treatment of her 'partner' chat after LB and chat go from equals to LB being the guardian and making more decisions without thinking to consult him...not in an actively shutting him out on purpose way...but still unthinkingly shutting him out.

especially considering you brought up how Nathalie and Gabe's dynamic tends to shift between the equals to a improper power dynamic at different times.

It makes me wonder how the show wanst us to view Gabe and Nathalie...do we contrast them with how Marinette/Adrien's dynamic...or do we try to see whats similar and if they are reflecting each other in where they had weaknesses or strengths.

like how both Nathalie and Chat tended to risk themselves to make Gabe and LB''s plans work and how they did it or their own will because they both support the same cause AND care their particular partners in crime...but also makes you question how health the dynamics can be when Nathalie is getting sicker and how it doesn't REALLY occur to LB to look further into how Chat is doing...

and when you brought up how 'does gabe knows about nathalie's feelings'...it gets interesting because it seems Gabe mostly just focuses on negative feelings...so if its positive...would he really be able to recognize it at this point...and is it supposed to parallel how mari was oblivious to chat's feelings til he spelled it out? or how adrien tends to be oblivious to mari liking him back due to mari not saying anything and hiding the signs of love from him with plausible excuses he has no reason to doubt? or is it like Luka and his selfless type of love. is he actively using it to his advantage...or doing it subconsciously? would it be similar to how mari used Luka's feelings at times or chat? or how adrien reached the breaking point with kagami?

though for me I actually thought Nathalie was taking advantage of Gabe a bit because he is vulnerable and has no one else to rely on at a few points despite how its easier to notice Gabe taking advantage....but then that makes a interesting situation where what if Nathalie represents how Alya was used in the show went Alya found out her identity?

or is it like how Chat knew how LB wasn't handling things properly, but he let it go because he was trying to focus on supporting her which just left the issues to grow and fester more as LB would isolate herself the more stressed, she got...

it made me think of how Nathalie had reached being strait up fed up with Gabe at times just to walk it back due to pity and seeing how Gabe still really needed support.

I think your right there was some potential if they had stayed more equal but that issues were always there ...it makes me think about how yes Nathalie did stand up for Adrien at times...but she also stayed silent alot of the times as well an enabled aspect as well....which in her defense he is literally her boss in the show...but also raises some questions since before they were boss and employee they were clearly friends. but also is a interesting contrast because Nathalie often makes sure things are running smoothly both in the company and in Gabe's plans...similar to how Chat noir is actually pretty important in things runny smoothly...if not due to working to make sure the plans work with little explanation from LB...than from moral support and trust which keeps LB believing in herself. Nathalie is a great support but often enables Gabe...but it makes me think about how Emilie seems to contrast that a bit.

Like my first big impression of Emilie is in Simon Says...where Adrien as Chat noir rips into his dad...and how instead of getting upset..Gabe RESPECTS that aspect and seems to compare it to a certain someone(who is clearly Adrien's mom)...implying the mom would take Gabe down a peg. and how the mom had videos in case Gabe keot trying to save her for too long and lost his way to stop him. I wonder if that aspect of calling him out is what made Gabe and Emilie work compared to Nathalie and Gabe(especially in the early seasons)

Personally what I found fascinating as well is that while gabe messed up encouraging her to use the peacock at all (even if it was shown it was due to desperation and how they just need to win once)...Nathalie doesn't seem to realize that Gabe is getting more twisted due to using his miraculous the wrong way all the time...like she gives him shit for not using the time miraculous to go back in time and that its somehow proof his motive has changed...but she doesn't seem to realize how it kind of comes across as a side effect from misusing his miraculous...that he seems to be getting side effects similar to his akumavictims. Hyper agression/temper, difficulty in thinking logically and finding alternate or better routes outside of the tunnel view of the miraculos, making dumbmistakes, willingness to hurt people you care about when normal you has certain boundaries you wouldn't cross. or which don't make sense or your motivation.

and both Nathalie and Gabe don't realize that Gabe's boundaries are getting more and more twisted. (though in Gabe's defense on the time miraculous....if Adrien and felix and other kids are created by the peacock and them finding it...it makes sense why Gabe wouldn't think to go back in time ands stop her if it means his kid doesn't exist. which does raise...does Nathalie know about adrien being a sentibeing or is she in the dark about that? As nathalie didn't hesitate to kill sentibug despite seeing her gain sentience.

I don't really think the peacock compelled Nathalie to support Gabriel but thats mostly because Nathalie having agency in her choices is what I finds most interesting.

What are your thoughts about Nathalie's dynamic with Emilie?

or how would you read Nathalie and Gabe's dynamic through the lens of the other dynamics of show has?

since as a formulaic show so some degree...it means the patters and well as the changes in the patterns tend to bring different aspects forward.

like personally I couldn't get behind Gabe and Nathalie for real because the mom was not dead and i didn't like the implication that if he got a 'replacement'/fell for someone else that the fandom was assuming him not saving his wife was the 'best' course of action...when him trying to save his wife is because she doesn't deserve what happened to her. Gabe's ONE good feature was how much he loved his wife so taking that loyalty away from his does him no favors in my mind. and it feels like they are simplifying nathalie's motives too often as just romance based in the fandom or just due to gabriel to try to absolve nathalie from her choices too much even though emilie washer friend to and nathalie cares for adrien.

(Though I do get around that by seeing them as a potential ot3 where they all love each other and have just taken way too long to realize all three could be in a relationship and the tragedy of it)

I mean the angst is too wonderful. Gabe getting too desperate allowed himself to encourage nathalie to use he peacock where it was too late by the time he tried to be firm about not allowing that anymore because nathalie herself got too desperate as well to fix it on her own. how he enabled his precious people to get hurt and how Nathalie enabling him meant she also helped her dear old friend fall further into his grief...not noticing him getting worse and more unstable from HIS use of the miraculous....how her side affect were physical while his were more mental(unless you count cataslysm).

Personally I'm REAL curious about how Nathalie will handle things in the next season where Gabe having sacrificed himself to save her life(especailly if they haven't made it where Emilie was also brought back).

So y'all know that I am morally opposed to the gabnath ship (and Gabriel in general) but oh my god it's such a FASCINATING dynamic to study.

#miraculous ladybug #miraculous season 5 #nathalie sancoeur #gabriel agreste #gabnath #they're so interesting #like objectively #Still morally opposed #ladynoir #partners #chat noir #ladybug #adrien