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Jamie Johnson BAFTA Q&A Full transcript

14:02:35 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Good evening, everyone and welcome to this special BAFTA event as part of Pride Month. I'm Alex Kay-Jelski. I'm the editor in chief of the athletic and I'm going to be moderating a discussion of Jamie Johnson, Tackling Issues Head On.

14:03:09 I'm sure you have seen the incredible episodes that have been airing recently and before we have a great discussion with your panelists. I have bits of housekeeping. Live captioning is available if needed on this, click the option at the bottom of your Zoom panel. Also, we will be taking questions later, because we want to answer your big queries, but to do that, use the Q&A button at the bottom. We will not see you on the chat function.

14:03:44 I will give you a five minute warning to get the questions in and we will get in as many as we can in the next hour. So here we are, Jamie Johnson, what an incredible, incredible few episodes as we saw Dillon comes to terms or start to terms with his sexuality and being gay and coming out in a time of him being a starring footballer and how difficult that was for hill.

14:04:17 I think in a world where a lot of people feel comfortable going to football grounds, not like anyone is allowed at football grounds right now, unfortunately. With people coming to terms with who they are, trying to speak to their family about it, trying to speak to their friends about it. Really moving, fantastic drama.

14:04:39 We're going to talk to the key people and try to explain why it is so important and what effect it had and will continue to have. So I will stop prattling on because you are probably bored of hearing from me because there are far more interesting people to hear from.

14:04:58 We have Shaun Duggan the lead writer on Jamie Johnson. He has been BAFTA nominated alongside of Jimmy from the accused and he is famous for righting the lesbian kiss in brook side. I'm old enough to remember that.

14:05:33 Next, we have actors Laquarn Lewis and Patrick Ward, so hello to you two. We have Cheryl Taylor. Cheryl is the head of content of BBC Children and she commissioned Jamie Johnson and all of the BBC content, that is hard to say when you say it quickly for television and online.

14:06:03 For now, we have Hugo Scheckter who is the head of Player Care of West Ham United. Later, we have an extra because we're going to be joined by the executive producer Anita Burgess who produces Jamie Johnson for BBC. Lots of people with lots of things to say. We should get started, shouldn't we?

14:06:32 I'm going to talk to Shaun first, because I think you're the best persons to answer this question. Jamie Johnson has always been a huge success, we're in series five now, great ratings, lots of interest, telling really, really important stories that reflect sort of the lives of children and teenagers. Why do you think the show has been so popular and why does it engage this audience so well?

14:07:07 >> Shaun Duggan: I think for what you have said and from the outset, we wanted to tell a show that felt very real and reflect the lives of our young audience and not patronize or condescend them. My background is working on soap operas and other stuff and this was rarely the first big show I worked on in children's drama.

14:07:40 I have to say, I didn't approach it any differently. I approached it in the same way as I would an adult drama. Obviously, there are things you have to be careful of in terms of language, but in terms of thinking of challenge in story, thinking about what reflects the young audience as lives, what is important to them and just in terms and I'm sure we'll talk more later about how the whole Dillon story came about.

14:08:08 If I could say from a personal experience, when I was younger, I could I've with the show because I'm football mad, working-class background, I remember my dad carrying me over the turnstiles and slipping the man some cash and all I wanted to do was play football in the street and that is why I was obsessed with going to every game I could.

14:08:39 Then I got to about 11 and things changed because suddenly all I play football with didn't want to be my friend anymore and people started saying I was gay, queer, in the 80'S, I did not know what these things were. It I just knew I was something bad and something to be ashamed of and things got worse where I was not welcome to play football anymore.

14:09:14 People turned their backs on me and all through senior school, for me personally, I had a hellish experience. I left school without any qualifications and not just talking verbal bullying, I'm talking getting beaten up most days, so school became about survival. I couldn't turn to the teachers. You were not allowed to talk about gay issue, I couldn't go home and tell my own family.

14:10:04 They were homophobic, not homophobic in a bad way, but we didn't know and I know firsthand how isolating and lonely, you know that is to be a young, gay person. I know things have changed to a degree, but in terms of education these things aren't talked enough within school, so to get this opportunity to tell a story like this in children's drama, I have to say a massive thank you to Cheryl and everyone at CBBC. If they don't support it and go along with it, then it wouldn't happen.

14:10:31 I have to say I found it very emotional seeing these stories going out on screen last week, not only that but everything around it, the support on news, the presenters after they talked to the audience and it is OK to be yourself and it made me proud to be a part of it and how far we have come.

14:10:46 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Do you think producing a show like this plays a role a little bit, a small role in helping the next generation of kids who are growing up, teenagers who are coming to terms with who they are, they don't have to go through what you have gone through.

14:11:24 >> Shaun Duggan: Absolutely, it is all cliche really, but if people say, if we telling this story, we can help one person not to feel -- let them know they are not on their own it is really worth doing. You mentioned at the intro, I did the lesbian kiss, which is almost 30 years ago now, but to this day, people who are in their 50s or whatever will approach me and when I meet them and you can tell people are in isolated communities with a traditional family.

14:11:34 The impact of seeing that story line on screen and making it feel less alone and that is so powerful.

14:11:54 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Cheryl, does the BBC have a role to play in that sense in trying to reassure people like this program does and let them know they are not alone? How important is it when you're choosing which programs to put on air does that come into play?

14:12:31 >> Cheryl Taylor: Thanks, Alex. It is really important to us. Obviously, as a public service board, we are there to inform and to entertain and I think we want the children who are watching our shows to feel good about themselves and feel informed. I think it is key. It sets us apart from other broadcasters and listening to Shaun there, such a powerful story that he has told, not just on Jamie Johnson, but to us here this evening.

14:13:02 I think, I don't know how old Shaun is, but he looks younger than someone who wrote brookside 30 years ago. When I was the age of Patrick and Laquarn, I would not have had any role models and it is fantastic that people are able to write these important stories and we very much want to reflect them.

14:13:31 I have to point out it takes a special kind of writer and special performer to achieve what Jamie Johnson has achieved and the whole production team as well. A lot of people have talked about authenticity at the moment and to hear Shaun talk about the story that has woven into a football series.

14:14:06 Jamie Johnson has been around for a long time and to artfully weave that story, in a sense, I don't think any of the fans or viewers would have felt in a sense they were being preached at or lectured, which I think is amazing. I think Patrick has taken us through Dillon's journey in a way that Shaun has given us the story, a coming of age story, someone finding his identity and that is something all kids will be going through. They will all be looking for signals and for help.

14:14:42 It is hard being a kid and hard growing up, so you know, absolutely, I think the BBC is the platform for this type of story, but fair play to these guys. They told it beautifully. I was seeing the comments on Patrick and Laquarn's Insta and there are people saying this is amazing and this is great to seeing this happen. People have written, what an amazing episode of Jamie Johnson. It is such a valuable series.

14:14:49 I'm grateful to Shaun and all of the team for telling the story so beautifully.

14:15:12 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Shaun, how do you write for a teenage and child audience? How do you get insides of the heads of teenagers and people of that age and make it relevant to them? As been mentioned in this call already, you are not a teenager anymore.

14:15:44 >> Shaun Duggan: No, but I thank Cheryl for the comments they am older than you might realize. I have lots of nieces, nephew, firstly, we have all been teenagers so I have been there. But I have nieces and nephews and so many of my friends' children love Jamie Johnson. In the past, for example, I tried to incorporate stories being relevant.

14:15:58 We had Dillon being diabetic in an earlier series because my friend's daughter was diagnosed with type I diabetes and that is where the idea came from, so you draw from all of those experiences.

14:16:10 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Patrick, do you remember the day they came to you with the idea of this story line and how did that feel? It is quite a responsibility, I guess.

14:16:41 >> Patrick Ward: Sure, I do remember the day, actually, before every series, I would meet with Shaun and Anita and talk about the next year and this idea was brought forward. To be honest, while a lot of people may see it as being a surprise, when you look back over Dillon's journey, it made a lot of sense and as playing Dillon, it felt organic and needed in society as well.

14:16:56 Yeah, definitely, I think that is really important as well, I have younger brothers and sisters who fancy the star and to see their response and other people, it has been brilliant.

14:17:20 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: How many barriers do you think there are to breakdown? For example, hopefully, this makes a lot of people feel more comfortable and better about themselves, but realistically, when you went and told your friends about this twist in Dillon's character, were you nervous about the response that you would get? Has that been positive?

14:17:42 >> Patrick Ward: I suppose you are nervous, for me especially with negative feedback, it is more kind of, like what Shaun was talk about earlier, it shows that it is perform that we're doing this story line. When you see negative feedback, which is not a lot of it to be fair, most of it is positive, but I think it is important.

14:18:03 People around me responded very well and my family was very supportive and is very forward thinking. I was proud to be doing it and I didn't care what other people had to say about it negative thinking, because I'm honored to be a part of it.

14:18:13 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Laquarn, how did you feel that? Do you think Jamie Johnson has a unique way of telling a story like this?

14:18:45 >> Laquarn Lewis: Yeah, I think it is unique in terms of the way he told the story, because any story can educate people on coming out and finding your own sexuality, but Jamie Johnson has done this through an industry which seems to be gay in football, especially and they tackled this on one of their main characters and followed the journey of his homophobic past with himself, his younger brother and dad.

14:19:16 He was only sharing the homophobic because that is what he was used to around his family and maybe his football team, you know, so the fact he had to hold it in for so long and hide who he is because of his passion for football. Jamie Johnson told an amazing story and did an amazing job of getting it across and you can be who you want to be no matter what your dreams are.

14:19:49 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: I think it is great that he was not playing into people's stereotypes as well. Some people like to think what they know what a gay person looks like, talks like, walks like, right, Dillon did not fit the stereotypes. Hugo, I don't know if you had the same thing, but when I came out, a lot of people were like, oh, we didn't see that coming necessarily, which is fine but you wish they had known it was coming because it was less of a surprise.

14:20:06 I think the fact that Dillon was not what some people would expect is a great thing for the audience because it makes them think about their own assumptions and prejudices, if you don't mind.

14:20:31 >> Shaun Duggan: I hope you don't mind me jumping, in but it made the story more interesting. The audience had these expectations of Dillon that someone like him wouldn't be gay, so therefore, that makes it more challenging.

14:20:48 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Yeah, absolutely. Did you, Patrick, Laquarn get involved in the story line or were you good boys and did what you were told?

14:21:07 >> Patrick Ward: Well, we rehearsed beforehand, actually in this house, in the next room. Laquarn came with someone we have known for a long time and rehearsed this kind of thing. I think it is very important as well.

14:21:42 >> Laquarn Lewis: He made us do games where we had to get to know each other really well before we shoot the scenes, so the story that we were telling was truthful. We had to do this one task and we had to look at each other and we couldn't smile and we had to keep pushing each other. He did so many games to get us on to a level where our relationship outside of acting could really like grow for our onset acting and I think that helped a lot.

14:22:10 >> Patrick Ward: I was going to say it is interesting because if you look at Dillon when he meets Elliot, it is like when he first sees him. It is like there is something that goes on insides of his brain. He doesn't understand what it is, but there is something and it is new and it happens very quickly, so I think it is important that me and Laquarn were able to understand each other as people and actors beforehand, definitely.

14:22:28 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Absolutely. We touched on this is a little, Cheryl, but outside of this show, generally, do you feel the BBC has a responsibility to put forward stories that represent underrepresented parts of audiences?

14:23:08 >> Cheryl Taylor: Yes, I was just thinking there when Shaun was talking about Patrick having diabetes just using Jamie Johnson as an example and this is one example of one of many, many dramas that we do. The different storylines that people judge as mainly football drama. We covered Jamie's family and kids looking after sick parents, so young carers, we had the homophobia, we had bullying. Just in that one series, you have a set of writers and producers and commissioners

14:23:50 Who intend to broaden the scope to be as inclusive and relevant as many kids as possible. Someone was talking about we know a lot of girls watch Jamie Johnson as well, so across the piece, it is important that all of our brands have a broad appeal. I think, I know I sound like I'm heaping praise on these wonderful creators but because I think they deserve it in this one drama. Secret life of boys, all of these shows on the surface, you can say this is a comedy, this is a drama.

14:24:19 Under beneath of that, every episode addresses these issues and reflects many of the audience's lives as many as possible and giving them tools and strategies to manage their own lives. I do think suggest a scale and a specialty skill and I don't think anyone watching the show would argue that they have done it incredibly well. It is very important.

14:24:44 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: That is it, isn't it? We can talk about sport and football and LBGTQ relationships in a minute, but Jamie Johnson, this story line is a show about football largely, but the story line is not about football. You can be any young more than or older person who doesn't have the courage to come out or the opportunity to come out and see that.

14:24:59 Hopefully, be confident and inspired by it. This is not about football, right, either of you, this is show to reach out to a much, much wider audience.

14:25:27 >> Cheryl Taylor: As I say it is about identities, rites of passage, coming of age and the journey that Dillon goes on, especially the extraordinary scene with his dad, for any kid, you know who is thinking about a difficult conversation that they might want to have, that would have been key. That would have been crucial and the fact that he goes to speak to Jamie. He reaches out to his friends and gets advice.

14:25:51 That is where the beauty of having Elliot there who has gone through this before, who has to some degree come to terms with his identity and that gives lots of information, lots of hope, useful take out for kids who are watching and feeling uncertainty about their own identity.

14:26:23 >> Shaun Duggan: I think that is, if you don't mind me jumping in again, really important because we established in the story that Dillon's family is homophobic. We ran a story where his little brother was kicked out of the club about making homophobic comments about Ruby's foster parents. We have time to establish that, but it felt important when we brought in Elliot's character that he was coming in from a different place.

14:26:37 He was comfortable in who he was. He says on screen that he had been brought up with gay people, so they had different experiences, but learned from each other's experiences.

14:27:03 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Also for parents, too, right? This is not an easy conversation and not always an expected conversation for parents as well. I think is very hard to know sometimes how to react and how not to react and everyone wants to say they want to be understanding with their children, but some parents may get shocked and surprised and don't react in the most helpful ways.

14:27:13 With that scene in particular with Dillon and his dad is a good thing to pin up on the wall, and go, whatever you do, don't do that.

14:27:39 >> Shaun Duggan: Again, in terms of that is such a powerful scene, very difficult to watch and all of the actors played it so brilliant, but there is quite a pit of the series to go, so although Dillon's dad reacted veried badly, he will have his own journey to go on through the rest of the series.

14:28:18 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Hugo, you sat there patiently and calmly and nodding in the right places, so now you get to talk. Hugo works in west ham. He is in the dressing room with players. He is helping them out. He used to work at Southampton, so he works at various football clubs. He understands football. He is a gay man in football. What did you think watching this and do you think football is a different place than other parts of society?

14:28:56 >> Hugo Scheckter: First of all, it struck me how powerful it was and it was jarring from a kids' TV show. I'm not someone who watched Jamie Johnson on a regular basis before, I don't know if I'm supposed to say that. This was my first expectation of the show, watching cartoons with my nephew. Did not know what to expect, but I thought, wow, this is hard hitting and I was jarred by the whole Dillon and his father's scene.

14:29:24 I think it was absolutely fantastic to highlight that. In terms of football, I think it's a different environment in a lot of ways, but negative and positive. I think a lot of people see football as this horrible, you know, macho, alpha-male environment. The changing room is one of the most diverse groups of people you can meet.

14:30:08 We've got on the team, for example, a guy from the republic of Congress go who is friends with a Scottish guy and a Hawaiian guy and you probably don't see that in society on a general basis. I think seeing the role molls come -- models coming out, but you're seeing it in the lockdown, but allies and I think people have spoken openly and eloquently about the importance of the rainbow campaign or openly gay players or role models.

14:30:42 For me, I was in the closet and I came out about two or three years into Southampton. My job is to look after players and the families and I was trying to get the players to trust me without sharing all of myself. Once I did, the relationship was so much closer and even today at lunch, I had a player ask me about my coming out and how I realized and he talked about how he would react if his kids came out.

14:31:14 That is a conversation that you would not expect to be in a changing room or a club and the amount of discussions we had about LBGTQ issues or trans issues, I'm not shaggymane expert, but I'm a resource and I think it is hugely encouraging and it means they are inquisitive people. I think they get a bad rap and I'm 100% sure who came out would be fully accepted in the change room.

14:31:44 Players want you to be a good person and a good player and if you can 10 us stay in the league or other teams' cases, higher up in the league, that is all that matters. It does not matter who you are or what you do in your free time, what religion you are or sexual orientation, it does not matter as long as you're a good person or a good player. I think football gets a worse rap than it deserves at times.

14:32:22 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: I would counter it to be the awkward person to say going to football is the only place I would not hold my husband's hand in public. It is one thing to know what it is like in the dressing room and that is fascinating, it is another thing to walk into a football stadium and the atmosphere and the words that you hear there, whether it is racist stuff, homophobic stuff, football as a sport has a long, long way to go percent. Sports has a long way to go. There are not out

14:32:59 Is not a great place. You say it was Dillon's line in the episode, there is no out -- no out footballer in this country, how can I sort of come out and be successful and that is the crux of that is a big part of the episode, isn't it? It is a really complex question because the worst thing that can happen people endlessly talking about it and the witchhunt of we need gay footballs. Who is the gay footballer?

14:33:14 I think the narrative needs to be a welcoming environment so people feel comfortable and that may take another generation's time.

14:33:53 >> Hugo Scheckter: There are gay women footballers in the west ham. You know what, yeah, I can talk to my experience in the changing room. To be honest, I go to every game we play and I don't hear the negativity. I think there is a lot of discussion in football about this banter and from an outsider's point of view, especially in the change room, it can be seen as negative. The way I felt was the players did not joke about anything, whether it was my sexuality or whatever else,

14:34:20 My hair, my weight, or whatever it is, that means they accept me. If it is like, don't talk about gay stuff that is like they don't accept me. I had players saying can I make a gay joke to you and I say as long as you make it to my face and prepare for me to come back at you and I think that is a little bit of a difference in football environment where other industries it would not be acceptable.

14:34:46 At the end of the day, we are focused of doing one thing, which is winning matches and we have a match tomorrow. We're all focused on that we're not worried about what everyone is doing around that. We're worried about everything is doing everything they can to beat Chelsea or get a point at this point, but it is important that we work together for that one goal.

14:35:06 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Just a quick, not warning as such, advisory, that we will probably start the questions in a few minutes. I can see there are few in there. If you want to ask these lovely, almost interesting people questions, make sure you get them so we can make you as happy as possible.

14:35:18 What is acting like in comparison, Laquarn, Patrick, do you feel that is a welcoming environment for people to be themselves?

14:35:54 >> Laquarn Lewis: Well, I feel like it. Yeah, there is, but there is a lot of discrimination in the acting industry, it is not just football. I feel like, especially with type casting that is very hard in the industry, because if you act or look a certain way then it is most likely you're going to get put for this same character over and over again. It is good to just play something different to yourself and get that opportunity.

14:36:07 It is getting better in the industry, but like I said, I'm happy to play whatever, especially this role right here, because I'm helping so many people, so I'm -- thank you, yeah.

14:36:13 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Have you had people get in touch with you to say it has helped?

14:36:17 >> Laquarn Lewis: You can do this one, Patrick.

14:36:49 >> Patrick Ward: Yeah, yeah, definitely, it has been mostly positive and that is the benefit thing for me is seeing people with a message saying this has helped me come to terms with this or this helped me speak about this and that is all we're trying to achieve and just I'm proud watching the episode because everyone did such a good job. It has been fantastic and see how people have responded in a good way.

14:36:57 There has been some negativity, but a lot of people have taken it positive.

14:37:18 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: One person who is in a great position to explain a little bit more about the reception that this story line has got is Anita. So Anita Burgess, for those who were not here at the beginning of the conversation, Anita. Hello, Anita. Good evening. Nice to see you.

14:37:21 >> Anita Burgess: Hello. Nice to see you, too.

14:37:35 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Anita is the executive producer of the show. You must be absolutely fantastic the repping you have had, I would love to hear from your perspective.

14:38:11 >> Anita Burgess: It has been amazing actually. I'm known as someone who cries a lot and the reception has made me cry a lot even for me. It has been overwhelming. I think as Patrick was saying largely positive. I mean almost entirely positive, the 1% have their other views and that is there and that has to be acknowledged, but I found, I think as what was said, the most moving ones are the positive ones.

14:38:39 People feel for the first time there is something on screen that they recognize themselves in and it helps them and the complements about how the story has been handled and us not talking down to people, that sense of what we're trying to do is empower and educate and get the word out there to help people who are already in this position.

14:38:53 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: How would you not talk down to people? What are things that you can do so it does not come across as patronizing? What are things in your head as a producer to say don't do this?

14:39:30 >> Anita Burgess: We are mindful of the audience and the age they are, so you explain things and make it clear to not -- what you're trying to do is use language that they would understand, but not treat them kind of too young. I think the simplicity of the story comes from truth. It comes from Shaun's experiences.

14:39:44 Making sure the research is as thorough as possible, so we are representing the truth as much as we can, I think it is about that, so don't talk down is just be honest and clear as best we can.

14:40:10 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: That is brilliant. I think it is time we put you to the sharks and answer some questions, really. There are quite a few of them. I'm going to try to do something if I press a button, they might come up on the screen. I'm going to apologize in advance if I get that wrong and someone will tell me if I'm doing this wrong.

14:40:42 So Dillon's storyline has been gripping, someone says. Beautifully written and amazingly active. Lots of compliments. This is best directed to you, Cheryl, of CBC producing a series with younger audiences where being LBGTQ plus being the center of the show? Can you, not target, but get this message to a younger audience?

14:41:13 >> Cheryl Taylor: Thank you for the question. As I was saying earlier, obviously CBC is the preschool channel and we have 6-12, to some degree we're limited to the type of lens we can put on sexuality, obviously, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot around your identity is something that we can explore. It has to be done in a certain way, because we have quite a wide age group.

14:41:47 I think the way this story is played out from 9-12 and above has been perfect, so depending on how someone wrote a story and type of character that they highlighted, I think anything is possible. Our central messages are about tolerance and inclusion and that people should feel OK about being themselves and I think you can get those messages across in many, many different ways, as to say for preschool age.

14:41:54 It would depend on the type of character and how they were portrayed, but essentially, yes, absolutely.

14:41:59 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Since you're talking, you can answer the next question.

14:42:00 >> Cheryl Taylor: Go.

14:42:22 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Shaun might have an opinion as well. How long did it take to develop the idea and were you nervous about it? The person here, he says he produced when Andrew Hayden Smith came out and people were nervous that people like parents would complain. Were you aware of that or, no, we're doing the right thing?

14:42:51 >> Cheryl Taylor: I wasn't nervous, actually, that is partly to do with the team. Again as I mentioned this there are a lot of tricky storylines in Jamie Johnson and our other dramas. Anita, Shaun, everyone is very, very experienced and I knew they would handle it really well and similarly, the commissioning editor, Amy and her team would have explained the storylines with Anita.

14:43:25 That is one part of it and going back to Patrick, Patrick is such a key, key character in Jamie Johnson and he has taken on so many different things, so right from the beginning. I remember Anita telling me Patrick embraced the idea because he felt it was so important. Genuinely, we knew the team, there might have been a few more question marks, but with this team we did not have any anxiety.

14:44:06 Anita and Amy in presentation and talked to the press and introducing it and Patrick introduced it and pushing to news rounds and also on social media kind of making sure there were links there to child life or the other kids that might be watching who were worried and going through new experiences. Across the piece, everyone was so empathetic that it might be a troublesome story line, and they did brilliant work to make sure it was embedded in the right way.

14:44:23 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Brilliant. Shaun, this one is for you. This person is called anonymous attendee, who I don't think is their real name, how important is it for LBGTQ stories to have a happy ending?

14:44:46 >> Shaun Duggan: Incredibly important, as far as I'm concerned. In the past, we have seen so many examples, you know, where there is a tragic ending and to be honest because that is reflected reality, because it has been in the past incredibly hard to be gay in this country. It was only in the 1960's, it was legal to be gay.

14:45:11 In the 80'S, we had the AIDS epidemic and you couldn't discuss being gay in school, so it is only in the past 20 or so years, we have been on this incredible journey and we are in a position now where we can tell these positive stories that reflect real people's lives.

14:45:31 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: I think when you grow up a gay teenager there is a lot of feeling that you won't have all of the things that people laid out for other people. I grew up thinking I'm not going to get married and not have kids and I'm going to be unhappy. Having hope.

14:46:11 >> Shaun Duggan: For me being able to tell it, I talked about being bullied at school. I was 21 before I came out. That ad less scents that most people have, I didn't have. It was stolen from me. It gives me so much hope that young people have the confidence to talk sexuality and build on those.

14:46:45 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: I'm being asked by Christopher, how have your peers responded to you playing this role? Obviously, Laquarn, you mentioned discrimination in industry. Have actors been supportive in what you have done? Lincoln people around me like my friends and family and people who watch have really supported me and and there is nothing far from like myself. Elliot is just like myself.

14:47:19 >> Laquarn Lewis: I -- so my friends have always been supportive, but I chose to wait until I left secondary school to tell them what my sexuality was, because I knew in secondary schools, if you are different in any way shape or form whether that is sexuality, disability, you will be brutalized and it is a horrible thing. I already knew I was going to wait until then. I was worried about my friends and what they would think as well.

14:47:46 When I told them, I have never seen such amazing support of people and doing this right now in the show, they have picked me up so much. They said the bravery it takes to be able to be open about your sexuality and then do this and silt just amazing and I thank everyone around me really.

14:47:51 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Patrick, anything to add or is that an impossible act to follow?

14:48:22 >> Patrick Ward: That is summed up perfectly. A different thing for me, this story line, but everybody around me has been very supportive. There are people I know, to be fair, from school or who you see out who haven't -- made comments, but as a reality, for me, you have conversations about this and able to express and I think it has been already.

14:48:43 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Someone sells asking, when you're doing a story line like this, are you given any help or claiming in terms or warnings about how to deal with the response afterwards on social media? It is hard to know what things are going to be like, right?

14:49:12 >> Laquarn Lewis: Yeah, we have had Zoom sessions with Anita and Shaun and BBC, everyone involved in making Jamie Johnson and particularly, this storyline, they have given us guidelines and a draft response to people who are giving us hate and BBC says we don't respond to this. We have been helped really well.

14:49:50 >> Patrick Ward: I think that is spot on that it has been interesting that I have been doing this for quite a while and I remember being 12 and in a room and talking about social media before I had ever been on TV and people saying, this is -- you're going to have this kind of response and this kind of thing and I remember being mind blown. It now a part of reality on how to respond with these things. I have a strict code of conduct with my social media and mostly what we have had ha fantast

14:50:26 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: There is one question that has been asked more than anything else, so we're going to save it to the end. We're going to go to a tough one and Shaun and Anita, you are probably best place to ask this. Someone said a line that jumped out to me, I think this is in the scene with Dillon and his dad, you are gay or you're not. Should we be telling people that identities aren't binary?

14:50:52 >> Shaun Duggan: I think with that line, you're writing truthfully from Dillon's dad's perspective. He hasn't got this great understand on of the subject and it is the kind of thing that he might say and not everyone is 100% gay. A lot of people are, a lot of people aren't, a lot of people in the middle.

14:51:32 Dillon is actually trying to tell his dad the truth and his dad is making it as difficult as possible for him, so I think I would rather focus on the positive message and the scenes that we have between Dillon and Elliot, where there was so much positive materials spoken about rather than focusing on Dillon's dad, who at this stage is homophobic and ignorant and a bigot, really.

14:52:05 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: This question is from a teacher and she says if she teaches things about homophobia or transgender issues, she gets parents saying she is trying to make them that way and we hear this quite a lot, right? If you tell people about transgender people, you're going to make them transgender. She is asking, have you had any of that or generally people been a lot lovier?

14:52:38 >> Shaun Duggan: If I could just say from my perspective on that, again, talking about what I was saying earlier, from being born to 12-13, I did not see any gay representation on TV I did not know what gay people were. I still became gay. If you go on that lodge you can, I should be an heterosexual, because I should have been inspired by boys and girls, but I wasn't. I still became gay.

14:52:54 You have to be careful when you have the debates, don't you of just having an open mind. At the end of the day, you know instinctively what you are from an a young age.

14:53:23 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Begs the question, if I watch enough "Game of Thrones" will by a weird person and run around with a spear in my hand? Not sure how that works. This question is for Cheryl from Miriam. She says in children's media, it can be hard to get certain things to air. With this story line, you had to tweak it or limit it in order for it to get to that stage or were you allowed to be fairly free with it?

14:53:57 >> Cheryl Taylor: Thanks for your question, Miriam. I think that goes back to the one we answered earlier, which was, I think the teams, s Anita and Amy and Shaun were looking at getting the story across in an age appropriate way. We is 6-12, so we need to make sure it is age appropriate.

14:54:38 Generally, there are some things I get exercised about, along with Katherine McAllister and I think pat and Laquarn was mentioning and we talked to her if we worried about a story line. Because this one, series five, coming from Shaun's personal experience and a specialty team, I didn't have any concerns about that.

14:55:12 >> Anita Burgess: Can I jump in as well, because I think it is important that people can understand how the producer coming to the BBC with this story, it wasn't something that we thought oh, we're not going to be able to do that. We knew the team would be very willing to talk to us and they did and we had a very in-depth discussion all the way along the line, they were incrediblably supportive of making sure this is age appropriate and the clarity was there, but the truth was there.

14:55:31 I think all credit it to the BBC if there is a perception that there is something you can't do there, that is not the case. There is always a conversation to be had there and they have been enormously supported right from the start.

14:55:50 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Hugo, young footballers coming through as teenagers, do they get a good education in being open minded? I can't remember how much they are in school and how much they are not at school. How do young sports people get taught how to be open minder?

14:56:17 >> Hugo Scheckter: I don't think we teach them to be open minded, I think we teach them a variety of life skills that leads them to being open minds, which was the idea. They are meeting people that they would not have met through their normal lives and I think that is a positive experience, but we also make sure everything we are doing that is appropriate and talk about the social media guidelines that the actors go through.

14:56:43 We go through the same thing, not only in the things they put out, but what they receive and we have had a number of issues with various comments getting to our players and having to deal with that. I think you can't maybe teach -- you can teach open mindness, but that is not our goal. Our goal is to make well-rounded people who are also excellent footballers.

14:57:06 We haven't seen issues in the any of the clubs I worked with where players are not accepting each other or having problems with each other it. Tends to be they competed on a position, where two goalkeepers competing for one position, but not the personality of the major clashes that happens at younger ages.

14:57:25 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: I reckon apart from the one person who is asking if they can play football with Patrick, we have time for two more questions. Laquarn, Patrick, what have you learned from filming these scenes?

14:57:49 >> Patrick Ward: I think a lot. These are the scenes I was looking forward to the most. When you get the scripts, especially the ones, obviously we rehearsed a lot, but I learned a lot as an actor and I am not able to prescription it very well because it is an organic process and try to embed yourself into it.

14:58:01 I like to think of it being modern and I think you learn a lot from this kind of thing, especially as a new actor.

14:58:04 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Laquarn, over to you.

14:58:40 >> Laquarn Lewis: I think it is -- it shows a way of how somebody can cope with coming out and how they deal with telling people and stuff and what I have learned from filming this and getting out there to people is, it doesn't have to be someone on the screen. You can be the person in real life to support your friend. All it takes you to ask them if they are OK and they might all of a sudden tell you that or anything.

14:58:55 If you just support people around you then you know it is something to help them that little bit more to be themselves.

14:59:11 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: So the last question of the night, the question that everyone is asking in this Q&A and we have to ask wow getting in trouble, is Elliot coming back? Who is answering that question?

14:59:28 >> Anita Burgess: I guess that is me, isn't it? We're hopeful. Things are in the process at the moment. Things aren't completely finished yet, but we're hopeful to find a way of continuing it somehow.

14:59:33 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: Laquarn, you're in luck. It is a night to celebrate.

14:59:35 >> Anita Burgess: He might not want to.

14:59:37 >> Laquarn Lewis: I would. I would.

15:00:14 >> Alex Kay-Jelski: There you go. It is a job acceptance live on air. Thank you so much all of you for your time, your questions, your excellent answers. I have enjoyed it and I hope you have as well. There are a lot of people struggling out there, as well, if you know them, I recommend the charities, it takes so much work to help people in relation to storylines like this, absolutely massive.

#Jamie Johnson #Patrick Ward #Laquarn Lewis #Dillon Simmonds #Elliot #Anita Burgess #Shaun Duggan #BAFTA #transcript #they'll probably upload the whole thing but just in case #this is the official transcript and it has some mistakes #I fixed some I caught but...

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modernlcve · 5 years

Text

* — stats — kelsey dyer !

* — basics !

full name: kelsey nicole dyer. nickname(s): none standard. age: twenty-two. date of birth: december fourth. place of birth: boston, massachusetts. gender: female. pronouns: she / her. sexual orientation: bisexual. level of education: high school graduate.

* — physical !

tattoos: none. piercings: ears pierced twice, right cartilege pierced. used to have her belly button pierced, but she’s someone’s mom now. notable features: big ol’ doe eyes. weakness(es): too trusting :pensive: scar(s): a faint one, right above her left eyebrow.

* — domestic !

occupation: front end clerk at the superstore. residence: lives in an apartment with anthony. social class: upper middle class. parents: joseph dyer, age 49, a contractor, he can’t relate to kelsey on much, but they try their best to get along. heather dyer, age 48, the parent kelsey has historically been closest with. siblings: joseph dyer jr, age 26, the most supportive member of her family by far. he takes being the oldest serious. cameron dyer, age 9, a fundamentally good kid, even if won’t stop getting caught drawing dicks in the window on the bus. children: indigo harding, who is born the second i post this. she’s an aries destined 2 overpower kelsey One Day. extended family: her father has 3 sisters, they spend holidays with her paternal grandparents and then all her cousins and stuff.

* — personality !

positive traits: lively. big-hearted. encouraging. negative traits: naive. judgemental. holds a grudge. myers-briggs ( x ): enfp, the campaigner. temperament: sanguine. moral alignment: neutral good. horoscope: sagittarius, the archer. hogwarts house: gryffindor.

* — favorites !

movie: uptown girls. tv show: america’s next top model. book: the wizard of oz by l frank baum. drink: cherry cola. food: mac n cheese. animal: raccoons. color: lavender. song: long live by taylor swift. artist: britney spears. celebrity crush: chris hemsworth.

* — impressions !

first impression: she makes a decent first impression. she lacks a filter and can sometimes cross a line with things she says without realizing it, but, for the most part, she’s pretty bubbly and friendly and all that. self impression: she’s got a healthy self esteem, for the most part. she thinks she has a good head on her shoulders and a strong moral code. she thinks she treats people well, and that’s what really matters. lover impression: she’s a good girlfriend, i think. supportive, tries to relate to their interests ( even if she simply cannot get baseball ). she thinks there’s power in little things and rolls with that.

* — et cetera !

turn ons: tall people. ambition. kindness. turn offs: condescension. hipsters. mustaches. drink/drugs/smoke: yes/weed/no. dominant hand: left, but claims to be ambidextrous, her right hand just sucks. clean or messy: messy. early bird or night owl: night owl. hobbies or special talents: she did ballet for years, she’s a pretty good dancer. she’s also double jointed and can do that thing where u flip ur eyelids inside out.

* — QUESTIONNAIRE !

01. where was your character born? what brought them to boston? what do they like most about the town?

kelsey was born in boston. she’s stuck around because of circumstance, she couldn’t afford to go off far after she graduated, and her family needed her to stick around a little, but she doesn’t know if she would have left, even if she could. she doesn’t think about it much anyway, because she knows boston is where she’s meant to be: if she hadn’t been here, she wouldn’t have met anthony, she wouldn’t have had indigo, and it just feels like it’s where she really truly belongs at this point in time, at least.

02. who are your character’s friends and family? who do they surround themselves with? who are the people your character is closest to?

in the past year, kelsey’s really been Figuring this out. her relationship with a lot of her friends and family changed after she got pregnant. she’s never been exceptionally close with her father, and he’s tried his best to be cool about all this, but it took a toll on her relationship with her mother. they were always close, but her mom is just Simply not jiving with the decisions kelsey’s been making. her brothers have passed less judgement, and of her actual family, she’d say she’s closest to them ( even her mom has Limited her access to cameron lately ). but anyways all that is part of the reason she’s so apt to call her palls from the superstore her family. she really does consider them her closest friends, as they’re people who didn’t start treating her different. she feels like nobody skipped a beat. outside of that, there’s anthony, of course, and by extension of him, the college Gang. she doesn’t feel as Welcome among their ranks: she knows she isn’t as fancy or smart as most of them and just tries to keep to herself when they’re all out.

03. what is your character’s biggest fear? who have they told this to? who would they never tell this to? why?

kelsey’s current biggest fear is that her mother is right, and she is messing up her life or anthony’s with having this baby, or that she just generally won’t be a good mom. most of her is confident she’s doing the right thing: she’s excited to be a mom, she loves anthony, she feels like they’re gonna get through this. but she knows it won’t be a walk in the park, and she’s not stupid enough to not realize that people don’t see her as the Most Competent. she’s ready to give it her all, and work to make it all fall into place, but she’s worried she won’t be enough, and she’ll screw up indigo, and ruin things for anthony, and mess up her life. she’s probably pretty open about this, in the kind of way where she’s looking for validation. its a conversation she’s had with anthony more than once. she’s never tell her mother this, she’s not about to give her the satisfaction.

04. has your character ever been in love? had a broken heart?

kelsey had two “”serious” partners before anthony: a high school sweetheart ( a football player who proposed to her before they graduated, prompting her to call it off ) and a Grown Up relationship ( a girlfriend she had fresh out of high school, she dumped kelsey before she studied abroad, didn’t want to be held back ). she thought she loved both of them and felt pretty heartbroken after they were out of her life. being In Love with anthony has definitely made her reconsider how intense she thought those relationships were, but ultimately, she doesn’t discredit them because they were so important to her at the time, she’s taken the thank u next approach.

06. it’s saturday at noon. what is your character doing? give details.

if she’s not working, she’s probably either goofing off on youtube enjoying a grilled cheese or, in recent weeks, she’s taken to scouring mommy forums online that, quite frankly, scare the shit out of her. she’s been trying to do things like take midday naps and go see rated r movies while she still can, so maybe she’s out there just fucking around and enjoying her freedom.

07. what is one strong memory that has stuck with your character since childhood?

kelsey did ballet for most of her life, from age 5 through all the way through high school. she remembers sitting in her mother’s bathroom before one of her first recitals, getting all dolled up in the mandatory makeup: mascara, lipstick, all that jazz. she remembers how grown it made her feel, even if her eyes watered and ruined the mascara twice, and it frankly stands out to her more than the recital itself.

09. what is something that upsets your character? where do they go when they’re upset?

kelsey is a Bit Tender and a lot of things make her upset, at least on a surface level. but it takes more to actually get under her skin and make her Truly Upset. its mostly people related, rude little comments with bite, feeling like people don’t like her or judge her/someone she loves. she’s protective of her brood. when she’s upset, she likes to curl up in bed with junk food and watch a little mindless tv. maybe it doesnt fix things, but its a distraction.

10. when your character thinks of their childhood kitchen, what smell do they associate with it? why?

her dad is one of Those Guys that has a special chili recipe he’s Very much a diva about. he made it at least weekly, and the smell of it all sitting out to simmer for hours stands out to her. she liked to help him with it, it was one of the few things they could bond over.

#( kelsey dyer. )#( stats. )

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long-arm-stapler · 3 years

Text

S2 EP1: Miquela Davis

Maira (00:00):

Hello! Uh, welcome to Long Arm Stapler, a podcast about zines, back with season two, after a long hiatus. Today, I am joined by Miquela Davis and I will let you introduce yourself.

Miquela (00:33):

Hi, I'm Miquela Davis and I'm super excited to be on this podcast with you today.

Maira (00:40):

Awesome. I'm really looking forward to starting to record again. Um, like I mentioned, I took a 16 month break from recording just because the world was a lot and uh, yeah, February 2021 back in action. Yeah. So I have with me, um, two of, one of your, your book, pup provisions, a copy of Miq's mix volume two a music themed zine. Do you want to talk about either of those or anything you've been working on lately.

Miquela (01:21):

Um, I actually liked those choices that you already have, um, because those are actually my favorite things that I've done. Um, the, the favorite things that I've published at least, um, which is funny, cause I also make a comic called cool dog that some people may have picked up, at like zine fests, but I really loved the Miq's mix. Uh, I made two of them, but the second one is my favorite because it features a bunch of like music themed comics and illustrations, and just has the loose theme of music. And then put provisions is the most recent thing that I made and that's like an actual book. Um, and it has illustrations of different dog breeds, um, in alphabetical order, along with snacks that start with the same letter as the dog breed, if that makes sense. Yeah. So that one took me. How long did it take me to draw? I think I did like a drawing every day for that. And it started as a drawing, um, exercise for me. And then I decided to compile it into a book because people wanted it. And then, um, I wanted to kind of get back into zine making, but it ended up being more of a like actual published. It's more nice looking.

Maira (02:34):

You have like a hard cover.

Miquela (02:37):

Yeah. I just, I just went on like Shutterfly and got it published that way. Oh, so it's still DIY, but it's it's way nicer quality than my like Xerox stuff.

Maira (02:47):

Yeah. I have not ventured into the world of anything but Xerox, but it's exciting. Yeah. What do you, I remember seeing your daily drawing challenges and I was like, Oh, this is really cool. I love dogs. I love snacks. Um, and then you were like, I'm going to make a book. I was like, all right, I'm going to get a copy. Um, I think my favorite is D for docs and I'm a little biased because I have a dachshund.

Miquela (03:17):

Yes. And your dachshund is adorable.

Maira (03:20):

and she's very much like your dog. Yeah.

Miquela (03:23):

Yeah. I feel like our dogs are such kindred spirits and like they've never met, but I feel like they have a connection it's like weird.

Maira (03:32):

Yeah. They would probably hang out in the dog park. Yeah. So, so far I've only ever interviewed people in the Bay, in my living room. Um, so this is exciting because obviously we're not in the same place right now. Um, you are based in Southern California yes. And pre COVID. Or can you talk about like the zine scene pre COVID?

Miquela (04:00):

Yeah, definitely. I could talk about the zine scene pre zine scene here. Really? How far back do you want me to go? I'm sure. I remember growing up and like I heard about zines through a book from my uncle when I was like 16 and he went to school with Mark Todd, um, who wrote, co-wrote a book called what you mean? What's a zine? Um, so they were like college buds and Mark Todd is I think still based in LA and he's an artist there with his partner, Esther Pearl Watson. And so they're both zine makers. They decided to make this book about how to make scenes. And so, because I heard about it that way, there was like nothing in orange County that was Xen based. As far as I saw at the time I had to go to like LA I saw some zines in like some record stores every so often, but it wasn't really a thing here.

Miquela (04:58):

And I gravitated towards Portland, Oregon because of that, I was like, Oh, I'm going to get out of orange County. I'm going to get out of Southern California and head towards where I saw zines being made at the time. And this was like early two thousands. Um, so then when I came back from living in Portland, that was around 2014, 2015, and I don't know how the orange County zine Fest came to be, but it popped up, I believe in 2014, I wasn't at the very first one and the very first zine Fest. I don't even remember where that was held, but then I found them and I applied to the second one, I believe in 2015. And I've been involved with the OC zine fest ever since. Um, I participated in it that one, uh, and the long beach one. And I sort of just found that there were a bunch of zine Fests popping up and I was able to find them through social media. Uh, social media was like a huge player in me getting involved in it. I don't think I would have been able to find it otherwise.

Maira (06:04):

Yeah. I have a similar experience with social media. I got into zines through tumblr and I really wasn't able to find zine fests nearby until, I mean, obviously I started looking for them and we have a few in the Bay area, but like Instagram and back when I used Facebook were very helpful in like finding zines.

Miquela (06:31):

Yeah. And the Bay area too was like one of those places when I was like a teenager or a young adult, like now I'm 30. So like I'm talking like, you know, 10 years ago, I feel like 10 years ago the Bay area had more, but you probably would know that more than me, but I, I feel like, you know, 10 years ago there was at least that community there.

Maira (06:53):

Yeah. I mean EBABZ, um, the East Bay alternative Book and zine Fest that I helped organize. This was our 11th year. And so, and I didn't even start getting involved in that until 2014, I believe. Um, that was the first time I ever tabled. Was at EBABZ 201- It doesn't sound, it doesn't sound right. But I think it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm learning more about the Bay areas and seeing more and more like every, not every day, but every time I go looking for stuff and it's really cool that there are so many zine fests everywhere. Um, and a lot of them have been able to pivot to online, which I think is really cool over the last year.

Miquela (07:42):

Yeah. That's been really cool to see and you're right about like these zine scenes that have been around, but then you just find out more about them. Like I found that too. It's like, Oh, you really stayed underground. Like, I'm only hearing about like these scenes that have been in existence for a long period of time, but it's like, we're only really hearing about them through like the internet and then word of mouth. Once you get involved, you're like, Oh, there's been like a zine Fest in the inland empire for years. I had no idea. It's cool. I like it.

Maira (08:15):

Yeah. zines, I think has always been very word of mouth for me. Um, and I liked that about them. Just, they're not super commercial. I mean, I, I feel like nobody's really in zines to make money.

Miquela (08:31):

No, it's for the love of them for sure.

Maira (08:33):

Yeah. And so I like the they're still predominantly, I don't know if they're still predominantly underground events because you know, they do get publicity, but I like, I love actually just how DIY things have stayed.

Maira (08:54):

Yeah. Even in the internet age with social media and then also like even programs where you can make, zines more digital. I love seeing artists make zines, still this kind of like old school Xerox machine, um, the risograph, like that's become super popular. I've seen with zines and that's kind of like an older art form, but it's become new again.

Maira (09:20):

Yeah. There's a lot of, um, riso like presses in the Bay area and it all looks so cool. I don't make art zines, so I guess, or at least make zines aren't predominantly like featuring art. And so I haven't kind of dipped my toes into that yet, but it seems like a really cool process. Just you have to like separate the images by color, I guess.

Miquela (09:50):

I'm not that familiar with it either. So I think you're right. Yeah. You have to separate it and you have to have them like, it's, it's kind of like, screen printing from my understanding and I, I don't even understand screen printing. I'm like very basic.

Maira (10:04):

Yeah, same. I don't, I feel like I don't put enough thought, like, I don't think ahead enough when I'm drawing to separate things by color. It's just like

Miquela (10:15):

Same.

Maira (10:17):

Let me take a Sharpie to a piece of paper. Yeah.

Miquela (10:20):

Yeah. I'm like, I just got a pen and a paper and that's usually how I make all of my zines. I just like sit down and I, I just draw and then I will compile it together later on. Um, you know, maybe I'll cut out like a page or two, if I'm like, nah, this doesn't really work, but it's just like pen paper. Don't really put much thought into it. And then bam just release it.

Maira (10:41):

Yeah. Sometimes it's best to like, not put that much thought into it in my own experience.

Miquela (10:47):

It's raw!

Maira (10:47):

Yeah. It's, I mean, I've definitely made zines where it's very, like, I don't know. I made a zine once that was writing. I did for a creative writing class. And so that was more polished, I guess, than anything else I've done. But it's usually just me kind of sitting at my computer, treating it like a live journal entry and just printing it out, stapling it together and letting people read it.

Miquela (11:17):

That's so cool too. Like just letting it be this like free flowing thought process. And like, I've always admired like the way that you make your zines because like, they're just so personal too.

Maira (11:31):

Yeah. I, I got started with perzines and I didn't really venture into like fanzines or anything with like drawings of my own until the last few years. But perzines are really like where I got my start, I guess.

Miquela (11:49):

Yeah. And I think that's how we met too, was like, I was drawn to your more personal zines and I was like, that's really cool. That's cool of you to like put yourself out there, like that.

Maira (12:00):

Yeah, I love to overshare on the internet, so why not do it with paper and some staples?

Miquela (12:06):

Exactly.

Maira (12:07):

Yeah. Because we met at a zine Fest. I think. I don't remember which one

Miquela (12:12):

I don't remember either. I was like sitting here and trying to think I'm like, I know it was at a zine fest. Like that's how we know each other. That's how we ended up here. But it's been, it's been a while and it's like one of those things where like, I've seen you now at so many, I feel where I can't remember like the first one either.

Maira (12:29):

And I remember the last long beach zine Fest that was held in person. We, it was like a power block of my table, my friend Andi and then you. And that was fun.

Miquela (12:42):

That was so much fun.

Maira (12:45):

And then my car broke down. So it was like fun up until heading home. Um, it was a disaster and I was like, wow, I wish I could just stay in Long Beach Zine Fest for a little while longer and not be living a nightmare. But

Miquela (13:00):

Yeah, I remember that too. I remember like seeing your Instagram posts and I was like, no, we were having so much fun.

Maira (13:10):

Yeah. Um, but you know, shit happens. Um, my car works again, so it's all good. Yeah. What else you've got, you've got an art show coming up that you're curating.

Miquela (13:24):

I Do. Yeah. Speaking of like zine fests and stuff. Like I miss them so much, but yeah. I curate an art show every year now since 2018. Um, I used to have a space that I could do it out of that my friend ran called riff mountain. And, um, I would curate art shows there every so often, but this crushes one is the one that I've done every Valentine's day for the past, like four years now. And the one coming up is the first virtual one, just because I was like, you know what? I've been wanting to get an art show together somehow during this whole COVID time period. But this one is special just because I was like, I can't not have crushes happen just because like, it means so much to me personally, the first year I did it, I co curated with a fellow artist. Uh, Meg Gonzalez, who is a local, you know, Southern California artists. And I think they've reached, you know, further than just Southern California. Like they're, I don't know. Like they just seem like a really, uh, poppin' artist, like more and more people are finding them. And I, I love that for them.

Maira (14:34):

Bug Club Supreme. Yes.

Miquela (14:37):

Yeah. They're, they're super cool. And so we co curated the first crushes show together. And then the second one I did myself last year I did with another artist, uh, Chantal Elise, who's just under like Chantal Elise art on, uh, Instagram. And then this year I'm just doing it myself and I'm doing it virtually. So like, it's going to be interesting. I'm super excited to see what happens, but we're basically going to do kind of like a live stream. I asked other artists to make like short videos of themselves and talk about themselves in their work. I only got one so far, so I might not be like super prevalent throughout the show, but my whole idea is that because we're going virtual, I would like to showcase artists more than you can do at a traditional art show. Like usually you're there and you're looking at their work, but you don't really get to know the artists behind it and like the story behind the work or the deeper meaning of it, like, you're just getting your own interpretation. So I was like, what can we do differently? Because it's going digital this time. And that's why I tried to include that in the like submission form.

Maira (15:50):

Yeah. It seems like it's going to be really cool. Um, what are you like hosting it on a specific platform or

Miquela (15:59):

I think we're going with youtube. I say we, because my roommate is helping me out with it. Um, we've been testing out different forms of software and I think YouTube might be where we end up. I initially was thinking like just a zoom call and I would like put together some sort of like, um, a slideshow or something, but that's, I don't know if that's really gonna work out. Um, so I actually don't know yet. We're still working out like, which one's going to be the best one for the whole show and for people to participate in, but also kind of be like an audience because the whole idea is like, we want it to be participatory, but also like where you're kind of watching a show happen, but have it partially recorded and partially in real time.

Maira (16:49):

Okay, that kind of Makes sense To me.

Miquela (16:51):

Yeah. I'm like, it's, it's a lot, like, it makes sense in my mind, like the recorded part would be, we have images of people's artwork and we would be, you know, showing that for like a few minutes at a time. And then maybe between each piece, like visual piece, we would have a recording of an artist talking about themselves and their work, kind of like an introduction to their work before we show it. Um, I know we have a couple live readers of poetry. We don't have a confirmed DJ set yet, but we have some recorded music that we can play. And if anybody during the show would like to, you know, maybe do any sort of live reading or live music or something, we're open to that as well. So that's the mix between like the recorded and then the live stuff.

Maira (17:38):

Oh, cool. Um, and so that's gonna be on Valentine's day, correct?

Miquela (17:42):

Yes. On Valentine's day still don't have a time sorted either. Like a lot of this happened now looking back and like, Oh, I kind of did this last minute. I wasn't really thinking of like a lot of the work that's going to go into making it digital because I'm so used to like doing it in person and kind of like winging it, you know, like day of it's like, all right, well, I know that I have all these artists signed up and I've done it for a few years now and everything's kind of just worked out, but now with the digital aspect to it, like I'm not super technologically, like I'm proficient, but I feel like a lot of these programs that I'm looking at, I'm like, I don't understand like this whole like live feed and putting in microphones and all this stuff like having, um, you know, the screen switch between one from another, like, it's, it's a lot, it's pretty daunting. So we also have a lot of artists tuning in, or like submitting stuff from other parts of the world.

Maira (18:39):

Oh wow.

Miquela (18:39):

Like that part has been really interesting to me this year. I think, because it's been opened up to being like, Oh, this is online. I don't have to like ship anything. I just have to send an email with some photos of my work. If I want to, I've gotten people from like the Netherlands. I've gotten people from the UK submitting work. So that's been really, really cool. And I want to make sure that they're included too, as part of like the little live stream that we do. So I'm trying to figure out like a good time for that and see if we can like record something for people to view later on if they can't make it

Maira (19:14):

Cool. And people still have time to submit, um, To that, correct?

Miquela (19:21):

Yeah. As of recording this right now? Um, yes. So the deadline is February 10th.

Maira (19:28):

Okay. Yeah, I can include, um, cause it was like a Google submission form. Yeah?

Miquela (19:35):

Pretty much. So the way that the submission process is working right now, like that's basically how I get people's names and then information. And I make like a spreadsheet of what they tell me that they're going to submit. So then that way I can keep track of it. But then to actually submit after that, they still have to send me like photo either photos of their visual work, or if they want to take a video, maybe you made a sculpture or something and you want to show it off. Like you can just take your phone out and like walk around the sculpture and get all these cool angles on it. And just like send me a video clip. Um, I'm really open to like any medium. Cause it seems like any one is possible. So yeah, people can just still submit that then to my email. And then my email, I don't mind giving it out. It's just MIQ U I D e [email protected].

Maira (20:24):

Cool. And yeah, I will post that in the show notes as well. Um, so if people are interested in submitting, they can, I am excited about it because I have, I've made a sculpture sort of thing, which I haven't really done before. Um, but I submitted it and it's really cute and I'm excited for other people to see it.

Miquela (20:48):

Yeah. I'm very excited for it too.

Maira (20:52):

Yeah. I just haven't like made, I haven't really done any art stuff in the last year, so I've, that's, I mean, that's not true, but it feels true. Like, I haven't, I don't feel like I have much art to show for the last year, but it was really cool, like working with my hands again and just gluing all of those tiny hearts. I was going to sew them, but I was like, that's so much work.

Miquela (21:20):

That's so much more work. Wow. Yeah.

Maira (21:23):

And I have a crush on hot glue. So I was like, okay,

Miquela (21:27):

There you go. It's perfect.

Maira (21:29):

Yeah. It's a good tie in, um, for those of you wondering, I made a Crunchwrap Supreme filled with hearts.

Miquela (21:35):

It's incredible.

Maira (21:37):

Yeah. I'm really excited. I submitted something to the show last year too. And it was one of the first times I've ever like submitted my art anywhere.

Miquela (21:48):

Really? I didn't even know that. Yeah. You've submitted last year and I was like super excited about it. Cause you like mailed me your work.

Maira (21:54):

Yeah, that was, I think aside from the long arm stapler show that we did in September of 2019, that was like maybe the second or third time I'd ever shown my work in like a show setting. And so that was really exciting. And I remember you posted like videos of the show in person and photos. And I was just like, I think it was, it was on Valentine's day again. And I was just on my phone, like kind of ignoring my boyfriend. And I was like, look at my work, look at my work. I was really excited about it.

Miquela (22:31):

I love that! Oh my God. That is so cool. Yeah. I was super happy to have you participate, but I had no idea. And I had also seen that show that you did up there. Um, the long-arm stapler one that looked super cool too.

Maira (22:45):

Yeah, that was my first, uh, time running a show and also being in a show, I guess, we recorded, the last time we recorded this podcast actually was like at the close of that show. So it's been an interesting time to like think back on it and really reflect on how cool it was. And like we had, it was mostly people from the Bay. Um, we had someone from, I can't remember where they live, but they're on the East coast. They submitted work two people from Southern California submitted work. And one of them was actually came up with their kids to see the show opening night. So that was really exciting too.

Miquela (23:30):

That's so cool.

Maira (23:31):

Yeah. And like I had just recently started at my current job and some of my coworkers came out and my like family came and it was, it was really cool.

Miquela (23:42):

That's awesome.

Maira (23:44):

I can't wait to be able do that again.

Miquela (23:47):

Yeah. That's been a major thing and like, yeah, once you do that, like, cause you said that it was your first time, like being in a show and then making a show, like putting on a show. That's why we started even doing crushes like that. I think that was my first time to like showing my work in a sort of like not gallery setting. Cause like I wouldn't call it necessarily gallery. It's like a DIY space, but having like an art show sort of feel where it's like, all right, I'm putting a bunch of things on the wall and showing off people's work and it's hard to get into like galleries or I don't know, just like art shows in general. I feel like don't really happen much. How is it up there? Like, are there more art shows that happen kind of similar to the one that you put on?

Maira (24:32):

Honestly, I don't know. Just cause I'm not like super tuned into the art world, I guess. Um, just cause I mostly like my, my medium is predominantly zines. Um, so that was another cool thing about the show was it was all zine themed. Um, but my friends are opening a gallery in Oakland actually, um, called crisis club and they're going to do shows there once it's safe. And I'm really excited about that because I feel like in the last few years, the amount of DIY spaces in the Bay has kind of dwindled. Um, it's exciting to like see that revival happening, even if it's slow going. And even if we can't have access to these spaces for awhile.

Miquela (25:30):

Yeah. Like I'm hoping after this is all over, we see kind of like a Renaissance in a way of like artistic expression, you know, having these sort of DIY spaces and um, cause yeah, there's at least down here they're really non-existent. Um, but I know like in the Bay area, like I would hear about them either growing up or like even recently, like I saw your friend's space, um, just through your Instagram and I was like, Oh, that looks cool. So yeah. I'm just hoping that we see more once this is all over.

Maira (26:06):

Yeah. And I think especially because people would just been sitting at home making art or at least I hope they've been sitting at home making art.

Miquela (26:14):

Yeah. The sitting at home, especially.

Maira (26:16):

Yeah. If you're making art good for you, but like please sit at home. Um, but yeah, I'm really excited to kind of see what art, like physical art spaces are like in a post COVID society.

Miquela (26:33):

And I think too, we're going to be starved for socialization. So it would be interesting to see like art shows become more of an inclusive thing.

Maira (26:42):

I agree. What else? Uh, are you working on anything else right now?

Miquela (26:47):

I have a lot of ideas floating right now. I know that's like, that could mean anything. Um, I do want to make more cool dog, but I'm just kind of like, he's an interesting character for me. I sometimes will get ideas for cool dog and then sometimes there'll be like, I want nothing to do with cool dog. I want to like work on other stuff, but I know that he's what the people want. Um, but I find it hard, harder and harder now just because I'm like, what is cool? Like, he's kind of like a weird problematic character because like a lot of times like his coolness is, is like something that I don't necessarily agree with. Um, like he, I dunno like the fact that he like smokes cigarettes and like seemingly doesn't like care about other people. Like he just cares about the sake of being cool. Like that's not actually cool. So there's like lots of questions like surrounding it. Like it's very like philosophical for me now. Whereas like it just started as like, this is a stupid comic thing that I'm just going to do for the hell of it. And then it like turned into like this character that I have to actually think about. And that's what makes me be like, I don't even want to think about it. I don't even want to make it, but I can't let him go either. So that's a long way of me just saying like, yeah, there may be more cool dog in the future. I definitely want to work more on zines but yeah, quarantine, you know, I'm just kind of taking a break, especially after making pup provisions that took a lot of energy, but I also would really like to make a memoir like graphic novel about the early two thousands and like my first year of high school. So that's been something that I've been working on slowly.

Maira (28:31):

Oh cool. We're the same age. So that was probably what like 20, 2004.

Miquela (28:35):

Yes, exactly. It was. So I'm thinking like, yeah, like 2000. Yeah, actually it would take place in 2004 because I was going to say the end of eighth grade, beginning of high school. So yeah, 2004.

Maira (28:49):

What a time to be alive.

Miquela (28:49):

Yes. And especially now, like I think like I've revisited that time period a lot and I'm like, man, what a great time. And I'm thinking of actually ending it when I discover zines, which was when I was like 16, like 15, 16. So I think it would be cool to make like a zine about my life, like discovering zines.

Maira (29:10):

Oh yeah. That sounds really cool.

Miquela (29:13):

Yeah. Like I would want it to eventually be compiled in a graphic novel, but I'm thinking, yeah. I might just start out doing like short snippets of stories in zine form, but then they could be, uh, combined together into like, I don't know what it's called. Just like a graphic- Yeah. Yeah. Like an anthology of like all these collected stories that take place during that period of time.

Maira (29:36):

Awesome. Uh, you have a Patreon.

Miquela (29:39):

Yes.

Maira (29:40):

You do like monthly stuff with.

Miquela (29:43):

I do. Yeah. So that's another thing that I've been consistently working on. I started it, I want to say in the beginning of 2020, I can't even remember now. Um, but then it's kind of evolved into now. I've gotten into a groove of like I send out monthly, um, things through the mail depending on like what tier people are on. Um, so I send out like pictures of my dog. Um, all the tiers are like named after her. Uh, so she's got like pegs pen pals. I send out clay pins that I make, I have yet to send out any zines, but that's just because I'm like, uh, what kind of zine should I make and send out? I don't know. I find that I like hold myself back from like making zines a lot because I'm a little bit of a, like a perfectionist when it comes to them, but I just need to do it. I just need to like make a little like one page zine or one piece of paper. So it'd be like six pages and like mail it out. But yeah, people get stuff in the mail if they want or they get access to like exclusive sketches and drawings and like random things that I'm doing. Kind of like, uh, a little bit of a journal. And then now I have a podcast where I talk about music and that's like exclusive to my Patreon for now.

Maira (30:54):

That's exciting.

Miquela (30:56):

Yeah. Thanks.

Maira (30:57):

I started a Patreon. Apparently I tried to make one in June of last year, but did nothing with it. Um, so in preparation for, cause I, I really want to just dive back into this podcast and kind of do more with it than I was before. Cause I think it was like one, every couple of months when I felt like it, I would just have people come over to my apartment and shoot the shit Essentially. I started listening to old episodes and transcribing them cause I wanted to make them more accessible and.

Miquela (31:34):

Oh that's cool.

Maira (31:34):

That was a very time-consuming process. Um, but I am still working on, uh, months later. Yeah. I remembered just really enjoying like the, the word that's coming up for me is prescribed hanging out time.

Miquela (31:51):

Oh yeah.

Maira (31:53):

Like it's a good way to like ease back into socializing because the only person I've really seen in the last however many months is my boyfriend. Um, because we live together and so it's like talking to people is hard?

Miquela (32:09):

Yeah. Talking, talking to people is hard. And I think too, like podcasting it's like, you kind of have a theme, like you have something to already talk about, so you're not sitting there like, well, how's it going with you? It's like, I don't know. I've been stuck in my house for 10 months. How's it going?

Maira (32:25):

To be fair I've done that also this episode.

Miquela (32:27):

Yeah.

Maira (32:30):

But it's fun. And I forgot how fun it was. And so I made a Patreon. I don't know what I'm going to do with it yet. Cause I've already, you know, I've got an Etsy where I sell my zines and stuff and I've got like a Ko-Fi, um, that I.

Miquela (32:44):

I haven't heard of that one. What is that one?

Maira (32:47):

It's just like a, it's a cute little site where you can buy someone a coffee, um, and just send them like three bucks and.

Miquela (32:56):

That's cool.

Maira (32:56):

Yeah, it's, it's cute. I was using it a lot at the beginning of last year because I was, I kind of realized that like I was putting in a lot of time to like zine stuff and it was kind of becoming a full time job, just, you know, organizing fests and organizing the art show and doing the podcast. I was already working a full-time job. And so it was just kind of draining and I was like, you know, it'd be really cool if people wanted to buy me a coffee for this. And so I found this website and it was cool. It's a nice way to like, I think it's kind of like Patreon and you can connect with other creators and uh, do like tiered stuff. It's I think it's basically the same. Yeah. You can do like one-off payments instead of like monthly.

Miquela (33:52):

That's cool. Yeah. That's like the one thing about Patreon where I'm Like I don't, I don't know, like I don't expect people to like want a monthly subscription unless it's for like, you know, the monthly mail outs. Like that's really the only one where I'm like, yeah, if you want something mailed to you every month, that's cool. But it would be cool if Patreon could also have like a one-time payment, which I guess you can do it just feels weird, you know?

Maira (34:19):

Yeah. I, at this time don't feel like I do anything monthly enough to warrant a Patreon, but that's also me kind of trying to kick my own ass into doing something monthly, I guess. I don't even know.

Miquela (34:38):

It's a lot.

Maira (34:38):

Yeah. I, I mean, cause you make all these things out of clay and take photos of peg and send them out.

Miquela (34:46):

Yeah. And I make, uh, usually I've been making, um, what is it called? Oh my God. I'm totally blanking on it. Block printing.

Maira (34:54):

Oh cool.

Miquela (34:55):

So I usually do like a, uh, at least original piece of art included too. And then if I include zines in the future, like yeah. Like I try to have like a few pieces of art within each package and it takes like days for me to do, like, it does become like a job. So I get totally get what you're saying. Whereas like, if you're doing these things, just for the love of it at the same time, you're like, Oh, I'm using my time to devote to this thing where like, it's hard because we live under capitalism and we're like, how can I pursue this? And still feel like I'm not, I don't know, like accomplishing something is the wrong word, but like it's hard. It's hard when like it becomes like it when it feels like a job.

Maira (35:36):

Yeah. And unfortunately It's also, like I feel as artists, we feel under capitalism, we feel inclined to like monetize our hobbies in order to get by.

Miquela (35:51):

Oh totally.

Maira (35:52):

It sucks. We want to just make art for fun, but it feels like all my time has to go into like hustling.

Miquela (36:02):

Oh totally. Like that was my whole thing with like even getting into zine making and getting into all of this is I was like, Oh, I already make comics. And this is just a fun way for me to distribute them, to like my friends and like get my work out there and just make people laugh. But then it turned into something as I got older where I was like, but this is all that I love to do and all that I know how to do. And like, guess, I've got to make money off of that somehow. So yeah. It definitely sucks.

Maira (36:32):

Yeah. At this point I'm just trying to pay for paper and ink.

Miquela (36:37):

that's the whole thing is like materials too. It's like, yeah, it would be cool to have like one of those fancy like risographed zines, but it costs money for materials.

Maira (36:46):

Yeah.

Miquela (36:47):

I could totally see you doing like a, I mean you could do like stickers monthly or something like included with like a mini zine that could even be just like a monthly thing for Patreon.

Maira (36:58):

Oh yeah. I love making those one sheet zines. Um, I was looking at- so something I've been doing lately for the past month or so is I've been looking at photos from that specific day in my phone. So from like years prior.

Miquela (37:16):

Oh, that's cool.

Maira (37:16):

And the other day, a few years ago, um, there was a zine library opening at the Oakland LGBTQ community center. And apparently I made a zine of just drawings of animals in cowboy hats, which.

Miquela (37:33):

That's amazing,

Maira (37:35):

Yeah it was super cute. I took pictures of some of them. And I think that zine, I didn't make any copies. So it only lives in that library. Um, if it's even still there, but I love making one-offs and I actually made one during EBABZ. Um, I was feeling really discouraged about selling my art and making art. And so I made one that was like, even if no one buys your art, you're still an artist. Um, and it was, it was nice. It felt good to just get things out onto a little sheet of paper. And I just bought a scanner and color printer for cheap, but now I have my own next to my desk. So.

Miquela (38:19):

that's a life changer.

Maira (38:21):

Yeah. There was a time period where I was like, okay, I can't make anything because I cannot copy it. Um, but now I can.

Maira (38:31):

That's so cool. Yeah. Like, and that alone, I mean, I know we were talking about how like it's hard right now to like create stuff, but like you're at least building up to like having a bunch of things where you're like, all right, well, I'm prepared to create now. Just got to feel like creating and not be crushed by like having to monetize it. And I think like returning to just like creating for the sake of creating is like so hard.

Maira (39:00):

Yeah. I bought a bunch of colored paper. Um, that I'm determined to do something with, but I also don't want to force it because like, like we've been saying it sucks to feel forced into creating art for money.

Maira (39:15):

Yeah, artist problems.

Maira (39:19):

Artist problems, truly, I am taking a block printing class on zoom tomorrow though. Um, which I'm pretty excited about because it's not really something, well, that's not true. My friend Kristen taught me how to carve stamps, um, with like easy cut rubber a few years ago. And I made like a taco bell stamp, which is pretty on brand for me, but I'm taking a class tomorrow and I'm excited to like, have someone show me how to do it. And I got a bunch of speedball ink and yeah, I'm excited to have that space to like make stuff that doesn't feel, it's kind of forced because I signed up for it. But,

Miquela (40:06):

But sometimes like, Oh, sorry,

Maira (40:10):

No go ahead.

Miquela (40:10):

I was going to say like, sometimes like, you know, that sort of force where like it, but it's more community built. It's like, okay, I'm kind of forced to do that just because I signed up for it. But like for some reason, taking a class like feels different than just like, alright, I feel forced to do this because like I have to do it for monetary gain or like, I need to feel like I'm being productive. And it's more of like a societal pressure versus like in a class there's like that community sense of it where you're like, Oh, that's so cool. I get to be like taught this by somebody who knows a lot about it. And that's been one of the like greatest things about this period of time, like during COVID and all the lockdowns and stuff is like being able to take classes online still is, has been like a godsend.

Maira (40:58):

Yeah. Are you still teaching the zine making class?

Miquela (41:02):

Um, I'm teaching, Well, I had a couple of workshops, um, where it was zine making. And then right now it kind of transferred into I'm teaching. I am still teaching, but it's like an afterschool program where we're making these like little animal field guides. So they already had like a pre-made book. Um, and then they fill it out with like animal drawings that we do each week and it's been so much fun. And then I'm taking a class through my work, um, with a different artist who's doing just kind of drawing essentials and just having that like set aside time each week to devote to art is like major

Maira (41:40):

The animal guide sounds cute as hell.

Miquela (41:43):

It's so cute. Yeah. But my students are like a huge thing that's been like keeping me creative. Um, cause we also do, I do a weekly thing called doodle hour and that's actually, uh, open to anyone and it's free. Um, it's all ages, but for the most part I have like kids in the class and I think that like deters adults, like I've had some adults pop in, but like I try to really make it for everyone. And it's just a fun time to be like goofy and imaginative. And I try to come up with like silly prompts and stuff. Like, you can just draw on your sketchbook, um, and be around like a bunch of fun kids that come up with like really silly things. And so like, that's been major too, for me. It was just like, I feed off of their like innate creativity sometimes. Cause I'm like, you haven't been ruined by capitalism yet.

Maira (42:34):

Stay that way, please.

Miquela (42:35):

Yeah. Yeah. That's like one of the hardest things being an art teacher is like seeing these kids and just kind of like realizing like as an adult so much is beaten out of us. Like not to get like super depressing, like as an artist, like looking at them as artists and like remembering back to like when I was their age and I felt like there were so many more possibilities and like I would just make for the sake of making, um, which is something that we've already like kind of talked about, like we're struggling with, but then like these kids, it's like, you give them like one tiny crumb of something and then they just like run with it. And I'm like, how do you do that? Like please, how do I tap into that resource again?

Maira (43:21):

It feels like something that needs to be like relearned.

Miquela (43:25):

Yeah. So like taking a class, that's all going back to like you taking a class. Like I was kind of saying like, that's so cool that you're doing that because like giving yourself that time, like hopefully that will get you into more of that mindset, a little, or like kind of retrain your brain to be in that creative mode

Maira (43:42):

In the same vein. I took like an art 101 class at my local community college last semester. And that was, it was the same thing where it like put me in a mindset of like, yes, it was for a grade, but it felt very like, because it's not, I'm not working towards a degree right now. I'm just kind of taking it for fun. And so it was really cool to just kind of get loose and like make stuff. And so I'm taking another art class through the same community college this semester and it's a site-specific installation,

Miquela (44:17):

Woah

Maira (44:19):

But we don't really have any sites. Uh, cause.

Miquela (44:22):

that's fascinating.

Maira (44:24):

Yeah. I'm really excited to see how it's gonna play out. And like I'm really excited to make Stuff.

Miquela (44:30):

Sounds like that's cool. Like that's totally something you can use too for putting on shows.

Maira (44:35):

Yeah. That's I think what I'm most using it for gain down the road, but definitely just like farming ideas at this point, which I'm really excited about.

Miquela (44:46):

That sounds awesome. And that's just through the local community college there.

Maira (44:50):

Yeah. Uh, shout out to Ohlone College, uh, their art department.

Miquela (44:56):

That's rad.

Maira (44:56):

Yeah. I'm excited. Uh, do you have anything else that you want to plug or talk about?

Miquela (45:05):

Um, no, that's pretty much it. I feel like, yeah. Talked about the art show. I mentioned like the class I'm teaching, but I didn't even mention like where it is, but I guess you can put that in like the description.

Maira (45:17):

Yeah. Thanks so much for doing this. I know it was like really short notice. Um, and technology is weird and kind of hard, but it's been fun.

Miquela (45:29):

No, this was awesome. I loved, uh, you know, catching up with you a little bit and like yeah. Hearing about the things that you're working on too. Like it's nice to just sit and talk like with a fellow artist who just gets it. Like, I I've been very isolated away from like any sense of like an art community. So like this was really cool and I, yeah, I really loved talking with you.

Maira (45:52):

Yeah. And it's, it's also just a very different vibe from like seeing something on Instagram and being like, all right, I like this, but it's cool to like interact on a different plane, I guess.

Miquela (46:05):

Totally.

Maira (46:06):

Yeah. Well again, thank you. Um, this was great and yeah, stay tuned for more long-arm stapler, uh, more often this year and that's all for me.

#podcast #podcast transcript #miquela davis #long arm stapler #zines #zine

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littledonkeyburrito · 7 years

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Literally copy pasting a survey bc I’m bored af

What does your town’s name begin with? B Are you a seafood fan? Yeah. I have a near constant craving for seafood paella Do you prefer dark, brown or white chocolate? Milk or sometimes dark Give me a random word in another language. Tell me what it means. Aventura. Means both adventure, and affair Which city would you like to visit- Rome, Tunis, London, Madrid or Paris? Paris bc Disneyland.

Have you got perfect vision? It’s good enough to not need glasses but also I can’t read shit in the distance.

What song(s) do you put on repeat often? Sofia by Alvaro Soler, and a lot of stuff by Genitallica How many letters long is your last name? 8 Are you wearing shoes, just socks or nothing on your feet? Nothing Do you like the smell of a barbecue or bonfire? Sometimes, depends on my mood How often do you drink soda? Most days What accent is the sexiest? Depends on who’s talking Do you currently live in the same country you were born in? No. What’s your current mood? Is “tired” a mood? A romantic meal, a trip to a theme park, or go to a concert? Theme park please How good is your memory? Sometimes it’s really good, sometimes it’s absolute rubbish What was the last pill you took? Paracetamol Have you ever seen someone you knew and purposely avoided seeing them? Of course Are you smiling in your default picture? No You think you can last in a relationship for six months? Probably Do you like pickles? Sometimes Are you texting someone? No Be honest, do you miss your ex? One of them kinda yeah just because he was ripped Do you believe exes can be friends? Depends, but generally no What was the last thing you looked up on Google? "employment agency maritime shore spain” Is your hair naturally straight? yep Do you have a best friend that knows you inside and out? yeah Do you remember the Pepsi Commercials with Britney Spears? no ..? Have you known your best friend a long time? Like 9 years I think Have you kissed someone with the name beginning with J or B? A couple of both What’s something you really want right now, be honest? To be travelling and having more adventures Would you be able to name everyone you kissed in 09? Yeah it was one person, once. Who’s the last person who you went out to eat with? A sort-of-ex a couple of weeks ago Is it awkward when you run into your exes? I don’t think I ever have How did you get one of your scars? Got cut by someone’s thumbnail during a karate tournament Do you wear makeup everyday? No Were you single for your last birthday? Yep When will you be in a relationship next? Who knows

Does your middle name begin with letters A-G? No

What is your state’s largest city? Barcelona

Pick your three favourite vegetables. Leek, Capsicum, Potato

Have you ever broken a movie or game disc? Probably

What colour are your brother’s eyes? Hazel I think

Do you watch Law & Order: Special Victims Unit? No

How many flights of stairs are in your house? None, but many in my building.

Have you ever played a drinking game? Which ones? Yes, so many.

Do you often feel excluded? Sometimes, but probably because I moved to the other side of the world from all my friends

Are you good with managing your finances? Yes, I am weirdly good with money and I don’t even try.

Do you have an accountant? No

Did you ever play Neopets when you were younger? So much.

Have you ever been to Mexico? Not yet

How big is your bathroom? Big enough I guess

How many friends do you have on Facebook? 226 apparently

Do you regularly check anyone’s profile online? There’s one or two

What is the closest pizza place to your house? I have no idea

What age did your mum stop helping you clean your room, if she ever did? I have no idea

What colour is your toothpaste? Blue

Have your parents ever worked in medicine? No

Do you have any silly nicknames or pet names? My dad sometimes calls me shrimp because I’m little, but he’s been calling me that since I was like 7

Are you any good at drawing? No

Is there anything unusual about your house? HAHAHAHA my bathroom is weird as shit. You have to walk THROUGH the shower to get to the toilet and then there’s a balcony next to the toilet too

Can you maintain a text conversation or do you run out of things to say? Depends

How old will you be turning in 2020? 26

Have you ever met anyone with Multiple Personality Disorder? Yes

What is your favourite type of cookie? idk, chocolate chip?

When was the last time you painted your nails? Several years ago for a cosplay

Do you like word or picture tattoos better? Picture

Do you find it hard to talk to strangers, even people who work in stores? Yep

Have you ever tasted goat’s milk? Goat’s cheese, yes. Goat’s milk, i don’t think so

Are you a fidgety person? Yep

How many serious relationships have you been in? None

Did you ever take classes for a musical instrument when you were younger? Drums

Is there anything going on outside your window? Just people on the street doing their thing.

Have you ever taken care of a newborn baby? No. I had never even held any age baby until a few weeks ago.

How old were you when you got your ears pierced? 10

Do you snore when you sleep? Not that anybody has ever told me about

Have you ever been 10-pin bowling? Yep

Do you have your own bowling ball and shoes? No

What was the last type of burger you ate? I have no idea when I last ate a burger. Oh no wait I had an egg and bacon roll in a slightly pretentious cafe in northern Colombia.

Have you cried in the past week? Nah, I don’t really cry

What were you doing yesterday at 8 AM? Pressing snooze on my alarm Whose bed did you sleep in last night? Mine How long have you known the last person you spoke on the phone to? I don’t talk on the phone much so I think it was the boss from the job I just left so I guess 2 weeks? About how long is your hair? Not very

If you could go anywhere right now, where would you go? Back to somewhere in central america

What were you doing an hour ago? Watching Netflix When was the last time you kissed someone? A couple of weeks ago just before I left Panama Do you think it meant anything to that person? That he could go back to sleep because it was 4:30am and he was only awake to say goodbye to me. Pretty sure he then slept in until like 5 minutes before the hotel checkout time. How did you get your worst scar? My brother had me on the dog lead when I was about 2 and he tripped over and it yanked my head into the corner of the wall. Are you on good terms with your most recent ex? Depends on your definition of ex. Could you go a day without texting? I could but I’m not going to. Who was the last person you rode in a car with? The driver who took me to the airport in Panama. Bc I don’t think a bus counts. Do you have any plans for the weekend? I don’t have any plans ever. I literally have no future plans at the moment. Do you have any nieces or nephews? No Are you wearing a watch? No. The strap broke when I was in Colombia and I still haven’t fixed it yet. Does your current/last job require that you wear a uniform? It did not. But the one back in australia, yes.

Do people misspell your name often? Yep When will your driver’s license expire? No idea and i cbf getting my wallet to check Do you have any plans to see anyone special today? No. Plans. Ever. What was the cause of the last time you cried? No idea, don’t remember when that was. Are you in any kind of a club or organization? Nope Where did you go to grade school? Primary school? Back in my little hometown in aus Who is your 23rd phone contact and how do you know them? It’s my mum! She birthed me. What would you do if your found out your mom was pregnant again? I’d be very surprised and curious who the father was. Do you want kids of your own someday? Probably not Do you live in an apartment? Yep Did you have a high school sweetheart? No If the last person you kissed proposed to you what would you say? I’d be like, “Whoa slow the fuck down there buddy, we literally spent 2 weeks together.” Would you ever get back with one of your exes? Ehh maybe the ripped one, but not for anything serious When was the last time you ate a poptart? God I don’t know, like two years ago? What kind was it? Not a clue Do you have any friends of the opposite sex you can tell anything to? Yeah Where is your dad right now? Probably at home asleep Are you wearing anything that belongs to someone else? No

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ovalpaste1-blog · 5 years

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Donald Glover gets a majorly mod real estate upgrade in La Cañada Flintridge

Though we don’t write about it often, the decidedly suburban community of La Cañada Flintridge is one of Yolanda’s favorite towns in SoCal. Located northeast of Glendale — up where the SGV meets the Crescenta Valley — this wealthy area borders the pristine Angeles National Forest. As we’ve previously mentioned, Yolanda had a very close (and sadly now deceased) relative who long lived in La Cañada. So much of our childhood was spend in the city, back about a million years ago. But we digress.

Welcome to La Cañada (photo: Mike Kobeissi)

Though many La Cañada peeps are rich — there have been $10+ million mansion sales recorded there — the area does not draw many celebrities. The community is too far-flung from traditional Hollywood haunts for most entertainers. Still, there are a handful of notable residents: Oscar-winner Gore Verbinski, acclaimed actress Angela Bassett, funnyman Adam Carolla and TV actress Diane Farr.

Another famous person who calls La Cañada home — though it hasn’t yet been publicized — is the multi-talented actor/singer/writer/comedian/producer/DJ Donald Glover, also known as Childish Gambino.

The award-winning Mr. Glover

Since at least April 2016, when he purchased a multi-million dollar mid-century residence in the sleepy town, Mr. Glover has bunked up in the notorious LCF. And apparently he likes it so much that he’s already elected to throw down millions for a residential upgrade out yonder. More on the real estate in a minute — first, let’s talk about Mr. Glover himself.

Born at Edwards Air Force Base but bred in the Deep South — the suburbs of Atlanta, to be specific — 35-year-old Mr. Glover has emerged as one of the most talented and creative members of young Hollywood. His first success came through the pen — in 2006, he graduated from NYU’s prestigious Tisch School of the Arts with a degree in dramatic writing.

At some point in the mid-aughts, when he was still in his early 20s, Mr. Glover sent Hollywood producer David Miner unsolicited samples of his work, including a spec script that he had written for The Simpsons. Miner and Tina Fey were impressed by Glover’s creative writing skills and invited him to join the NBC sitcom 30 Rock as a screenwriter, a job he would retain for several years.

Since then, Mr. Glover’s red-hot career has spanned the width of the entertainment industry — as a singer/rapper, he’s won a Grammy and hit #1 on the Billboard charts with This is America. As an actor, he’s won Primetime Emmys for his starring role on Atlanta — a show he also created. He’s also got two Golden Globes and five Writers Guild of America Awards to his name.

Yolanda could continue to list Mr. Glover’s accolades until the sun creeps below the horizon. But suffice to say that whether his work appeals to your personal tastes or not, the guy is indisputably talented.

Donald Glover and his partner Michelle White

Mr. Glover and his longtime girlfriend Michelle White now have two young bambinos, so it makes sense that they’d want to upsize their residential circumstances. And with the money rolling in, Mr. Glover recently felt flush enough to splash out nearly $4.2 million — $4,188,000, to be exact — for a rather stunning property very near his current digs. In fact, the new place actually lies on the very same hillside street as the old house — it’s just a half-mile down the winding road.

Originally built in 1983, the huge modern house was designed by acclaimed architects Buff & Hensman and is fused almost entirely from concrete and glass. Within those soaring walls are a mansion-sized 6,848-square-feet of living space — and Yolanda absolutely loves all of it. Reagan-era ’80s moderns were so difficult to do right, kids; but on those rare occasions when the architects made it work, they created timeless showstoppers. Like the one displayed here today.

In fact, one of Yolanda’s all-time favorite architects — Mexico-based Ricardo Legorreta — specialized in modern homes of this era and created some of its very best examples. Mr. Legorreta is responsible for one of Yolanda’s favorite homes in all of LA: Casa Shapiro, Brentwood Park — but as usual, we digress.

Though the La Cañada house is very large, it remains all but invisible from the street out front, tucked back at the end of a long driveway and surrounded by a dense canopy of mature oak trees. The property spans a full 4 acres of land, large enough for even A-list celebrity-sized egos.

The house has been admirably preserved over the past 35 years and was sold to Mr. Glover by the original owners — a married Chinese couple named Allen & Kate Yuen.

Features of the main rooms include double-height ceilings, brownish tile floors, and slab-sided walls just aching for a world-class contemporary art collection. And the enormous glass windows are really quite stunning, though we imagine Consuela will curse Mr. Glover’s name every time she hauls out the ladder to spray Windex on those monsters.

There’s a lovely outdoor loggia overlooking the forested year, an elegant dining room and a family room with a giant wet bar. The kitchen is the one room that could definitely use a complete gut job — imagine how many food scraps are stuck in the grouting on those tile countertops. Yuck!

With 6 beds and 7 baths, the structure has plenty of space for a growing family. The master suite features a bedroom sitting area, private outdoor terrace, a walk-in closet and bathroom with built-in soaking tub.

There are numerous outdoor living spaces scattered throughout the multi-acre estate. Enjoy al fresco dining by the gardens, sunbathe on the concrete terrace, sip champagne by the oversized pool.

As previously mentioned, Mr. Glover’s old La Cañada house — which he still owns — happens to be on the very same street as his new one. The far more modest (but also stunning) mid-century ranch is secreted down a long driveway on a full acre of land.

The glassy abode has 3,279-square-feet of living space and a huge outdoor terrace with a pool and built-in firepit. Spectacular views — this place actually has much better vistas than the new house — take in the Angeles National Forest and its magnificent mountains.

Records show that Mr. Glover used a blind trust to pay $2,744,250 for this property in April 2016. And while Yolanda assumes he will soon attempt to unload the stylish spread, it is not currently listed.

But as they say, these things are only a matter of time.

Listing agent: Janice McGlashan, Coldwell Banker Donald Glover’s agent: Andrew Morrison, REDWOOD

Source: https://www.yolandaslittleblackbook.com/blog/2019/01/09/donald-glover-house-la-canada-flintridge/

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danahmbisyosangdoktora · 7 years

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HI GUYS!!!! Oh my, it’s been a looooooong while. I actually went through my blog and re-read everything and I’ve noticed that I was always saying how “I don’t know what to and how to do blogging anymore” in most of my previous posts but I PROMISE THIS TIME, I LEGIT DON’T KNOW WHAT TO WRITE OR HOW DO I DO THIS ANYMORE because I haven’t done this for like forever. It felt like I’m starting again!!! Okay sige, I’m not gonna babble more. Let’s just hop right into my post.

Okay, so as what I’ve mentioned on my previous posts, I’ve entered Third Year or the Medtech proper last school year 2016-2017 and that’s (also) the reason why I was gone for a very long time. Idk, I just found myself being swallowed by acads and all that jazz that I never really had the time to write a single blogpost. There’s so much that has happened in my entire Third Year life and I wish I could’ve had written any of’em and immortalize the memories on this blog and hark back to those times... but sadly, I didn’t. Anyway, as you can probably tell on the title, this post would be a “rundown” of my experience as a Third Year Medical Technology student.

(Wait, how do I start?)

We started the school year earlier than the normal students in our university due to the reason that we were trying to chase the schedule for the 1-year internship so everything would fit and we would end just right on time for the graduation (yikes chills) because as you all know, we are one of those pabibo schools who embraced the academic calendar shift. So the clinical subjects I took this year are as follows:

1st Semester

MIC111 – Bacteriology

PAR100 – Clinical Parasitology

GPHC100 – General Pathology, Histopathology and Cytopathology

CC111 – Routine Clinical Chemistry

HEMA111 – Hematology 1

MTLBE100 – Medical Technology Laws and Bioethics

LMS100 – Laboratory Management and Supervision

2nd Semester

MIC112 – Mycology and Virology

UBF100 – Urinalysis and Body Fluids (Clinical Microscopy)

HEMA112 – Hematology 2

SIM100 – Serology and Immunology

CC112 – Continuation of CC1/ Special Chemistry

CC113 – Endocrinology, Toxicology and Drug Testing

IMH100 – Immunohematology (Blood Banking and Transfusion Medicine)

I can’t believe I already passed all these subjects let alone the first sem subjects!!!! Personally, I think First semester is harder than the Second Semester idk maybe because it’s the time when we were just and still adapting to the new and toxic environment of Third Year life and the transition is quite overwhelming. Also, the passing rate was raised from 60% in Second Year to 70% in Third Year. I CAN’T EVEN!!! Plus the laboratory practical exams had an upgrade to like 5x that of the Second Year pracs. There’s legit a time when I went back to my dorm during lunch break just to cry because of a practical exam and a fair share of tears were shed at nights when I have no idea how to fit and finish everything before the sunrise. Also there’s a day when, for the first time in my life, I called my mom after I got back in my dorm from school and cried for my dear life because EVERYTHING WAS SO HARD.

It’s also during First Semester when I learned how essential it is to know the time difference from night (let’s say 7pm) to 5am the next day and how to utilize it very well because your life literally depends on how you manage and distribute it to sleeping and studying because you know, you’ll only have to read 1-3 chapters per subject and you only have like 3 quizzes the next day for the lecture and probably a practical exam or a long quiz for the laboratory in the afternoon. JUST HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO PREPARE FOR THAT IN LESS THAN 10HRS???--- is all I was thinking then. That’s how resentful and pitiful I was back then.

We were taught the laboratory skills we need— Venipuncture (of course! the freaking highlight and a must), Blood Smearing, Staining, Pipetting!! Oh God forbid, I loathe glass pipetting so much! Direct Fecal Smear... and all medtech-y skills. I love Bacteriology so much. It was the subject I got the highest grade during First Semester. The lecture and laboratory were both the bomb.com. But ofc, I wouldn’t forget the anxiety the Unknown has given us. For our finals in the lab, we were given unknown organisms and we were to identify it via Biochemical Testing and everything we were taught of on how to identify such. It took me so long to decide what my organism was because some of the biochemical test results weren’t at par with theoretical information so imagine my anguish. Our grades basically depended on it so... yeah.

but in the end, I decided it was Enterobacter cloacae.

Another memory from First Semester is the time when we were to submit Enterobius swabs as additional points for our Parasitology laboratory. I took my bestfriend with me to hunt down possible patients. It was such a memorable experience, I have no more words. I poured all the feels on this Facebook post.

Also, I’ll never forget about First Semester is the day when we had our Grand Practical Exam in our laboratory subjects and it was the time when 3rd Floor HSC was in a total dishevelment. We were taking turns and rotating in different labs to have our moving practical exams simultaneously--- one section is having their Histopath moving pracs, the other is having their Bacte moving pracs, then another section is on the roil in Hematology moving pracs while the other one is having their Parasitology Moving Pracs and the like. That was the most intense day ever imaginable.

Also on that day, was the first time I was able to extract blood on a practical exam!!! I can never forget how stupid I may have looked for shouting “Hala may dugo” when blood oozed out from my partner’s vein. I was never able to bleed my partner in almost all the practicals we had due to my infamous phobia with needles and I was legit surprised and awed when a blood came out that day!!!

For the events of Second Semester... I’m not really sure?? lol even though it’s the more recent semester, I can’t remember much from it coz it went like a blur to me. It was so fast it was so unreal that it actually happened!!! (and that I passed!)

Okay. One thing I could say about Second Semester is that I fancy UBF hahahaha I’m not sure if it’s the subject itself or teacher factor hahahaha but to be honest, it was so fun to study and probably the easiest of the panel of subjects for second semester (or so I thought).

The laboratory learning and insights this semester gave me more of the medtech feels because most of the experiments/tests we did in the lab were the ones that are being performed in the actual laboratory setting. I will never forget the struggle of dilution in Serology lab. We aren’t allowed to use calculators during the entire semester and of course as someone who absolutely hates math and computation, that’s. the. worst. nightmare. ever. So given that situation, imagine our surprise during the Final Laboratory Written examination when our instructor finally allowed us to use calculator. Everybody in the class was in awe because that’s super unexpected. We didn’t have much of moving practical exams this sem compared to the numerous ones we had on first semester. The practical exams this time were more like skills-based and principle application. Slide identification-kind-of-moving practicals was surprisingly nakakamiss.

Self-pity time: Two semester have passed and no one was able to extract blood from me huhuhu do I even have veins??? :------(

Just to give you some insight, there are:

4 major examinations in each lecture subjects

2 major written examination in each laboratory subjects

(100-item identification)

Moving Practical Exam in each laboratory subjects

Skills/Application Practical Exam in each laboratory subjects

Pre and post quizzes in every meeting in each lecture subjects

Pre and post quizzes in every laboratory experiments

Long Quizzes every after chapter

Long Quizzes before major examination in each lecture subject

Long Quizzes before major examination in each laboratory subjects

Surprise quizzes whenever the professor would like

Not to mention the drawings of each specimen in laboratory manuals in each laboratory subject

2 Journal readings in each lecture subject

So ayun, hindi po kami OA and nag-iinarte. Our lives literally revolve in exams and quizzes.

Moving on, last May 09, we had our Pre-Internship Program which is a prerequisite before you can proceed to the actual internship. On that exact day,we took a 700-item Diagnostic Examination without any notice and I literally just came back from an 8-hour trip because I went home in Bicol so I was sitting for like 14 hours straight!!! We had series of practical examinations for two weeks, a Phlebotomy seminar with BD Philippines, a tour in a National Reference Laboratory which is the National Kidney Institute and an Oral Revalida.

CAUTION: Photospam ahead.

I’m not sure if this is enough to summarize everything because I can feel that it’s not even in the slightest bit justified on this post. Maybe it’s one of the wonders of life that cannot be really put into words. (But you tried, self what are you doing hahaha)

Suffice to say that all these experiences; the nerve-racking and heartbreaking quizzes, no-sleep days, tears, sweats, blood (hahahaha legit), cramming moments and all other hardships are the variables which played significant roles in this endeavour which lead me to where I am heading right now. I’m so happy and proud to share to you guys the next step I’m taking in this career path. I am now officially a Medical Technology Intern at St. Luke’s Medical Center – Quezon City under the Institute of Pathology. I know, I can’t believe it myself that I was able to pass through the needle-hole like hurdle you call “Third Year life”. SLMC is actually my first-in since we are to undergo 1-year internship and we will be having our second-in next semester in another hospital.

I will be forever thankful to Trinity University of Asia especially to Dean Rodriguez for always making sure that the quality of education/ training is there. Thank you for a super hands-on laboratory experience and our very own DIagnostic Laboratory in the 4th Floor. It’s like a simulation of the environment that we will be facing in the near future. Would also like to thank our Clinical Instructors:

Mam Majo Liao

Sir Jude Anthony Trinidad

Dra. Mary Anne Isip

Sir Mark Francisco

Sir Mel Destacamento

Mam Gigi Dayrit

Mam Violie Bascao

Mam Suzzette Lumanga

Mam Rona Gonzaga

Sir Joshua Descamparado

Sir Nikko Onate

Mam Krystal Tio

for gearing us up with all the lectures, wisdom and skills that we would need to be the Medical Technologists that we are aiming to be.

---------------------------

Other significant life events during the course of Third Year life:

I became an Altar Server at the Shrine of Jesus the Divine Word. Hashtag dream come true.

I was elected Medical Technology Councilor in the University Student Council. Hashtag unreal.

All glory and praise to the Lord God above. Thank you for guiding me in almost everything I do. Thank you also St. Jude Thaddeus for interceding for me. Forever grateful and blessed.

That’s pretty much how I can sum up my Third Year life. I hope you enjoy reading as much as I enjoyed writing it! Thank you so much for reading yet another long blog post of mine. See you on my next post (hopefully there’s a next)!!!

#medtech #medicaltechnology #collegediaries #collegelife #trinitian #Trinity University of Asia #bujoph #bujocommunity #lifelately #personal blog #premedlife #premed #philippines #personal blogger #journalph #student council #studyblr #studyblrph #studyinspo

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ionizable · 7 years

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day 002: a picture of something that makes u happy

this picture is from the summer. it’s the board in the front hallway of my best friends’ apartment (that’s the J.A. you see to the right, the initials of the two original ppl who lived there.)

the board was a tally counting how many days artur & i could go without drinking or using, post-pride. i lasted two weeks and then went to the beach and got sloppy, and the next morning i woke up in a hotel room someone else had paid for with an extra $120 stuffed into my backpack... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯...

summer 2016 was wild, yall.

DAY 01: A RECENT PHOTO OF YOURSELF DAY 02: A PHOTO THAT MAKES YOU HAPPY DAY 03: A FAVORITE BOOK THAT YOU OWN DAY 04: A PICTURE OF YOURSELF TAKEN OVER TEN YEARS AGO DAY 05: A PLACE THAT MAKES YOU HAPPY DAY 06: YOUR FAVORITE QUOTE, IN YOUR HANDWRITING DAY 07: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 08: A RECIPE THAT YOU MADE RECENTLY DAY 09: A TALENT OF YOURS DAY 10: YOUR BEDROOM (IN ITS CURRENT STATE) DAY 11: YOUR FAVORITE FOOD DAY 12: A PRIZED POSSESSION DAY 13: FAVORITE BOARD GAME DAY 14: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 15: YOUR CHILDHOOD HOME DAY 16: SOMETHING EMBARRASING IN YOUR ROOM DAY 17: YOUR PET/S DAY 18: YOUR FAVORITE OUTFIT DAY 19: ONE OF THE BEST DAYS OF YOUR LIFE DAY 20: YOUR GRADES/REPORT CARD DAY 21: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 22: FAVORITE CD THAT YOU OWN DAY 23: A SCHOOL PICTURE DAY 24: FAVORITE PURCHASE EVER MADE DAY 25: A GIFT FROM A FRIEND DAY 26: A GIFT FROM FAMILY DAY 27: THE SHOES YOU WORE TODAY DAY 28: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 29: A PRETTY FLOWER (YES, GO FIND ONE AND TAKE A PICTURE) DAY 30: YOUR BREAKFAST DAY 31: A PICTURE OF YOURSELF TAKEN TODAY DAY 32: SOMETHING YOU COLLECT DAY 33: SOMETHING YOU MADE DAY 34: SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU SMILE DAY 35: FAVORITE MOVIE THAT YOU OWN DAY 36: A PLACE WHERE YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME DAY 37: THE LAST RESTURAUNT YOU ATE AT DAY 38: A USELESS TRINKET YOU OWN DAY 39: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 38: AN EMBARRASSING PICTURE FROM YOUR CHILDHOOD DAY 39: SOMEONE IN YOUR FAMILY DAY 40: SOMETHING YOU DID TODAY DAY 41: THE WEATHER OUTSIDE DAY 42: A HOBBY OF YOURS DAY 43: YOUR FAVORITE FOOD DAY 44: WHATVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 45: A ROOM IN YOUR HOUSE DAY 46: YOUR BEST FRIEND DAY 47: A DAY YOU REMEMBER FONDLY DAY 48: SOMETHING YOU DREW DAY 49: SOMETHING PASSED DOWN FROM A PARENT/GRANDPARENT DAY 50: A PICTURE OF YOURSELF CELEBRATING FOR GETTING THIS FAR DAY 51: THE LAST THING YOU BOUGHT DAY 52: A PICTURE OF YOURSELF FROM MIDDLE SCHOOL DAY 53: WHAT YOU¡¦RE WEARING TODAY DAY 54: A DRAWING OF YOUR FAVORITE CARTOON CHARACTER DAY 55: EVERYTHING INSIDE YOUR PURSE/BACKPACK/WALLET DAY 65: SOMETHING GREEN DAY 66: A MAGAZINE YOU LIKE DAY 67: SOMETHING RED DAY 68: SOMETHING YOU BORROWED FROM SOMEONE ELSE DAY 69: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 70: A STUFFED ANIMAL DAY 71: YOUR LUNCH DAY 72: SOMETHING YOU FOUND UNDER YOUR BED DAY 73: YOU AND YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER DAY 74: SOMETHING THAT ANNOYS YOU DAY 75: THE LAST THING YOU BOUGHT DAY 76: YOUR SUNGLASSES DAY 77: A TICKET FROM SOMEHWERE YOU¡¦VE BEEN DAY 78: YOUR FAVORITE CHILDHOOD MOVIE DAY 79: SOMETHING YOU BAKED DAY 80: THE MOST EMBARRASING THING IN YOUR CLOSET DAY 81: THE MOON TONIGHT DAY 82: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 83: SOMETHING PINK DAY 84: SOMETHING YOUR MOM BOUGHT YOU DAY 85: SOMETHING YOU HOLD DEAR TO YOUR HEART DAY 86: YOUR BEDROOM DAY 87: WHAT¡¦S IN YOUR REFRIGERATOR DAY 88: YOUR CURRENT SCHOOL PHOTO DAY 89: SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU SMILE TODAY DAY 90: SOMETHING WEIRD IN YOUR HOUSE DAY 91: THE VIEW FROM YOUR BEDROOM WINDOW DAY 92: WHAT YOU¡¦RE DOING RIGHT NOW DAY 93: SOMETHING YELLOW DAY 94: THE PLACES YOU WENT TODAY DAY 95: SOMETHING HEART SHAPED DAY 96: YOUR FAVORITE NAIL POLISH COLOR DAY 97: WHATEVER TICKLES YOUR FANCY DAY 98: YOUR CLASS SCHEDULE DAY 99: SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU FEEL ACCOMPLISHED DAY 100: THE FINAL PICTURE OF YOURSELF

#meme: 100 days #shitty life posts

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californiaprelawland · 4 years

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Tesla’s Lawsuit Against Alameda County: Reopen the Fremont Factory

By Stephanie Yu, Pomona College, Class of 2022

May 25, 2020

On May 9, Tesla, Inc. filed a lawsuit against Alameda County, home to one of the corporation’s factory plants and one of the largest contributors to the company’s revenue, for forcing shutdown of the Fremont site.[1] Alameda County policy has mandated sheltering in place and closure of Tesla operations in compliance with the March 19 Executive Order N-33-20 (stay home order), which mandates all California residents to remain at their “place of residence, except for permitted work, local shopping, or other permitted errands.” [2] Exceptions to this order apply only to “essential critical infrastructure workers” within thirteen sectors; however, the County has deemed Tesla services to be non-essential.

The shuttering order arrived shortly after the corporation had announced an increase in manufacture of the Model Y, “a highly anticipated new sport utility vehicle,” coupled with inaugural ventures including the recent opening of a Chinese factory and the forthcoming opening of a plant in Germany. [3] Nevertheless, CEO and product architect Elon has continued operations in pursuit of his “plans to revolutionize the auto industry and help solve climate change.” [3] In response to County policy, Musk has threatened to relocate its California headquarters and production sites to Texas. [4] Moreover, Tesla has taken legal action against Alameda County in federal court, filing a lawsuit founded on the primary accusation that Alameda County has superseded the statewide order, forcing closure of businesses that constitute “critical infrastructure” and are permitted to remain open. Tesla alleges that Alameda County’s actions cannot be misconstrued as permissible under Governor Newsom’s N-60-20 order, which asserts that “nothing…limit[s] the existing authority of local health officers to establish and implement public health measures… more restrictive” than statewide measures [5]. Conversely, Tesla contends that the forced shutdown of its operations directly subverts the Governor’s orders.

The plaintiff’s complaint against Alameda County can be divided into three sections. First, Tesla alleges that Alameda county has violated the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause by “fail[ing] to give reasonable notice to persons of ordinary intelligence of what is forbidden under the law.” [6] Tesla contends that the contradictory nature of Alameda County’s order in relation to the Governor’s order creates confusion, impeding Tesla’s understanding of the denial of open operations and unjustly subjecting Tesla to the threat of “criminal prosecution.” Moreover, Tesla elaborates that there is no formal procedure to “challenge the County’s determination that it is not an essential business.” Consequently, constitutional rights to liberty and use of property are being denied, and due process of law is not being served, Tesla says. [6]

Next, Tesla contends that the County has breached the Fourteenth Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause, which safeguards civil rights, prevents a state from “deny[ing] to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws” and requires a rational reason for seemingly similar entities to be treated differently. [7] Tesla maintains that unjustified, “disparate treatment” can be witnessed between the shuttered Alameda County facilities and the operating, neighboring San Joaquin County facilities. [6] According to Tesla, the order lacks an explanation for the inconsistency in treatment; additionally, quantitative comparison of the COVID-19 cases between the two counties, as of May 7, reveal comparable statistics: 79.3 cases and 3.7 deaths per 100,000 in San Joaquin County, and 114.5 cases and 4.2 deaths per 100,000 in Alameda County. [6]

The final section of the plaintiff’s complaint draws upon article XI, section 7 of the California Constitution to illuminate the third alleged violation, one that has been previously alluded to in the document. Tesla claims that it “operates in three of the federal critical infrastructure sectors: (i) “Transportation Equipment Manufacturing,” which includes “Vehicles and Commercial Ships Manufacturing”; (ii) “Electrical Equipment, Appliance, and Component Manufacturing,” which includes “Electric Motor Manufacturing”; and (iii) the “Energy Sector;” herefore, the Governor’s Order grants it the explicit right to continue operations. [6] In other words, Alameda County’s ruling of Tesla operations as nonessential and consequent shutdown of the Fremont factory represents unconstitutional defiance of state orders, as the county is not permitted to enforce “all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations… in conflict with general laws” [6].

In response to the lawsuit, Alameda County’s Health Department released a statement, communicating that officials are partnering with Tesla to outline a plan to assist the reopening of the Fremont site while ensuring worker safety. As of May 18, Tesla has been permitted to resume operations, with its health and safety plan “approved by Alameda County’s interim health officer after authorities toured the facility last week.” [8]. Prior to the County’s support for reopening, President Donald Trump articulated support for the resumption of Tesla’s operations, tweeting, “California should let Tesla & @elonmusk open the plant, NOW. It can be done Fast and Safely!” [3]

________________________________________________________________

Stephanie Yu is a rising junior at Pomona College pursuing a double degree in Computer Science and Public Policy Analysis, with a concentration in Chemistry. Stephanie holds strong moral convictions that she applies to all areas of work, and she is currently exploring the potential of a career in law. In her free time, she enjoys neighborhood walks with her family.

________________________________________________________________

[1] Assis, Claudia. “Elon Musk Threatens to Move Tesla Out of California, Then Files Lawsuit.” MarketWatch. 10 May 2020, https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-threatens-to-move

-tesla-out-of-california-2020-05-09

[2] Stay Home Except for Essential Needs. California Coronavirus (Covid-19 Response), 15 May 2020, https://covid19.ca.gov/stay-home-except-for-essential-needs/#faq

[3] Chokshi, Niraj. “Coronavirus Wrecked Tesla’s Momentum and Elon Musk Is Furious.” The New York Times, 13 May 2020, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/business/Elon-Musk-

tesla-factory-coronavirus.html?searchResultPosition=1

[4] Campos, Elizabeth. “Tesla Filing Lawsuit Against Calif. County After Decision Not to Reopen Businesses. NBC10 Philadelphia, 11 May 2020, https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/

national-international/tesla-filing-lawsuit-against-alameda-county/2390625/

[5] Newsom, Gavin. Executive Order N-60-20. 4 May 2020, https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/

uploads/2020/05/5.4.20-EO-N-60-20-text.pdf

[6] Tesla v. Alameda County (2020). https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/files/

2020/05/09/Tesla%20v%20Alameda%20County%20Complaint%20copy.pdf

[7] Equal Protection Clause. Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause

[8] Simmons, Rusty. “Tesla Tells Employees Fremont Factory Has Approval to Restart this Week.” San Francisco Chronicle, 17 May 2020, https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/

Tesla-tells-employees-that-Fremont-factory-got-15276512.php

Photo Credit: Steve Jurvetson

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zhumeimv · 4 years

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The Latest Study On Marvel And DC Movies Is Very Telling

Date: 2019-11-09 23:00:00

[aoa id=’0′][dn_wp_yt_youtube_source type=”101″ id=”6_wQ9ASq7jk”][/aoa]

It appears that Marvel and DC fans have slightly different preferences when it comes to how they get their respective fixes.

A new survey conducted by streaming and cord-cutting news site Flixed examining the attitudes of Americans toward streaming vs. movie theater viewing revealed that Marvel…

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torentialtribute · 5 years

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Michael Owen on life in Madrid, the Beckhams, and a Gazza story

Michael Owen has revealed the growing distance between him and his countryman of England David Beckham during his time with Real Madrid, while the former striker the & # 39; different stratospheres & # 39; discussed what the two teammates were on.

In his recently released autobiography, Reboot – My Life, My Time Owen wrote about the difficulties and his family he was confronted with during his year in Spain Real Madrid as his young family did not manage to enter into a business hotel because he saw the Beckhams farther and farther away from him and his wife, as well as a visit from Paul Gascoigne.

Owen joined Los Blancos of youth club Liverpool in 2004, revealed as one of the Galactic, one year after his Englishman Beckham joined the Spanish giants .

Michael Owen (R) talked about distant relationship with teammate David Beckham in Madrid

The English compatriots rarely spent time together outside the field, due to different lifestyles

The former striker said that the two players, despite the clear connection with Beckham in the dressing room, spent little time together.

While Owen struggled to keep his young family happy and maintain his form for his team, Beckham & # 39; s stock rose significantly on and off the field.

Owen says that the lifestyle of the Beckhams compared to his and his wife Louise's was the driving force behind the distant relationship.

He writes: “No matter how much we lived near David and Victoria Beckham and two English families lived abroad in the same town, there was not much in the way of social life for them. and we were worried.

Michael Owen and his wife Louise "class =" blkBorder img-share "/>

Michael Owen said he and his wife are in a & # 39; other stratosphere found & # 39; & # 39; against the Beckhams

& # 39; Given that both Louise and Victoria were quite lonely and both cared for young children, they would see each other occasionally while we were training. However, that was the degree of friendship. This was perhaps no surprise, because by the time we were in Madrid together, David and I had even less in common than we had ever done before.

& # 39; I certainly did not like wearing the trendy clothes or mixing under socialite company. David and Victoria, on the other hand, were both real superstars. They operated from a social perspective on a completely different stratosphere. I never got the impression that I was in the inner circle of David's group of friends. & # 39;

It is also not the first time that Owen mentioned the former English captain in his book. Earlier this week, an excerpt from the book revealed that Owen Beckham still blamed for his part in England's defeat to Argentina in the 1998 World Championship – a tournament where Owen made a name on the international stage.

Owen joined Real Madrid from Liverpool in 2004, signing as a Galactico for the Spanish club

As the club's newest star to draw, Owen was the subject of the traditional revealing player in Santiago Bernabeu, although he admits that he was terrified at the thought of his revelation.

He writes: & As a future Galactic you are expected to perform tricks to blind you.

& # 39; The problem was, I have never had any tricks! I was so nervous that I went out into the field that I almost flung through it to continue with the dedication to sign. 11 shirt when he joined a star-studded team such as Beckham, Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldo and Luis Figo.

The striker, now 39, underwent a slow start to life in Madrid, confined to the bank, and was criticized by parts of the Spanish media for his lack of form.

The revelations are contained in Owen & # 39; s new autobiography – & # 39; Reboot: My Life, My Time & # 39;

The Englishman struggled to adapt to life in the Spanish capital and admitted that he knew from the start of his move to Madrid that he would not stay there long.

& # 39; As strange and perhaps defeat as this sounds, almost as soon as we arrived in Spain, I instinctively felt that my time there would be short, & # 39 ;, he writes.

& # 39; From mid-August the club accommodated us in a hotel while we tried to find a house. The two of us existing in one room, with a young daughter who was at the age where she had to be entertained, would have been difficult enough for a month. But one month became two, and then two became four. & # 39;

Owen scored 16 goals in 45 performances with the Spanish giants, including one in El Clasico

MICHAEL OWEN AT REAL MADRID

Joined: August 13, 2004

Rate: £ 8 million

Signed from: Liverpool Football Club

Performances: 45

Goals: 16

Owen finished with a reasonable resp. ectable scoring return from his time at Madrid, but did not really succeed in reaching the first team. He scored 16 goals from 45 appearances for the Spanish giants.

The most remarkable moment of the Englishman came when he scored the fourth in a 4-2 victory over Barcelona in El Clasico.

A striking moment during his time in Madrid came when Owen bumped into a friend he didn't expect to see in Spain. Paul Gascoigne had emerged from scratch in Madrid.

Owen writes: & I walked into the reception room in Real Madrid and there Gazza was in front of me. When I looked closer, he was wearing a pair of soccer shoes. I thought for a moment: What? Did we sign it?

& # 39; Then the reality began when I rationalized myself with that, and as he had once been, there was no way that Real Madrid would have signed Paul Gascoigne in 2005.

& # 39; I can only say that Gazza did not seem to be in the most stable state of mind. No matter how wonderful it was to see him, there was something incredibly sad and gripping in the image of one of my heroes who always stood in the Bernabeu reception and held his football boots. & # 39;

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#Michael Owen on life in Madrid #the Beckhams #and a Gazza story"

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preserving-ferretbrain · 5 years

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Race in Popular Culture

by Robinson L

Monday, 15 June 2009Robinson L is valiantly undeterred by Racefail.~I recently reviewed Michael Crichton's 2004 novel

State of Fear

on my livejournal account. The review got me thinking about the depiction of race in contemporary popular culture. The result: this essay.

First off, I should establish my credentials. When discussing issues of power, privilege, and oppression, it's important to know people's background, where they're coming from.

I'm a straight, white, Anglo-Saxon male, early twenties, nondisabled, not rich but with a good whack of class privilege. (“Middle class” is a loaded term and completely misused in the modern vernacular and I avoid it like the plague.) I've lived all my life in the United States. I'm about as privileged and overprivileged as they come.

The following essay comes from that background plus a half dozen years of eclectic anti-racism work (mostly theoretical) which hasn't quite gotten me to the point where I know how much farther I still have to go.

Disclaimer: I began writing this essay before Racefail 09—as it has come to be known—had really gotten started. In fact, I never even heard about Racefail until the essay was almost finished, except for the polishing. This is not in any way a direct response to Racefail, although it may be relevant to issues therein.

I think most of us would agree that mainstream Western popular culture has come a long way from the blatant xenophobia of the early 20th Century, but it's arguable whether Western media has become less racist or

differently

racist. For myself, I incline toward the former view. Nevertheless, I would point out that while execution by guillotine may be more humane than hanging, drawing or quartering, it still isn't a positive institution. Racism today may not be as virulent as it was ninety years ago, or even forty, but it is still very much alive—it's just gotten subtler.

Token Minorities and Racism Without Race

State of Fear

all the protagonists are white, except for one token minority sidekick who is almost irrelevant to the needs of the story.

As an isolated case, this proves very little. But pick up another Crichton book and you will find much the same. In fact, if you pick up any modern mainstream Western book, I'd venture the chances are something like twenty-nine out of thirty that the protagonists will be all white, except maybe for a token minority sidekick.

The overwhelming majority (much greater than, say, the majority of actual white people in the United States) of US novels and Western novels are whites' own adventure stories, which people of colour are kindly allowed to tag along for and occasionally to provide some assistance in, like Lando Calrissian in the original Star Wars trilogy.

If you've got the right sense of humour, it can be highly amusing to watch white Western authors try to make out they're totally progressive on race and not racist at all … while still writing books with all-white main casts because, y'know, those are the really interesting stories.

Since these authors can't be bothered to write main characters who are people of colour, and rarely can be bothered to include race relations in their main storylines (despite the fact that issues of race are quite often the elephant in the room that no one wants to mention) they often resort to confronting their open-minded white protagonists with more racist white minor characters and having the protagonists tell off the racist jerks. Or they include a rant against racism in general, without depicting

any

specific manifestations.

David Brin's original

Uplift

trilogy presents some interesting material in our study of race in popular culture. The main character of the first book, Jacob Demwa, is actually part Cherokee, and he tells a story about Cherokee dispossession and oppression by the early United States, including “populist” President Andrew Jackson. And unlike Joss Whedon blatantly breaking the narrative of his stories to point out that “this is the author sending a progressive message about an -ism” (sexism rather than racism in Whedon's case), the story of Cherokee dispossession actually has a textual justification for being included, even if one might argue that it was somewhat contrived. The couple other important human characters in the first book,

Sundiver

, are all presumably white, but when it comes to race in the first

Uplift

trilogy, this is actually David Brin on a good day.

The second book in the trilogy,

Startide Rising

, has a more open discussion of racism … among different breeds of neo-dolphin. (I should probably pause here to point out, for the benefit of anyone who's never read the books, that Brin's series is science fictional, and the “uplift” title refers to the process by which sentient species enhance nonsentient species into sapience.) Humans have, of course, grown out of racism among each other by the time of this book.

Dolphin racism in

Startide Rising

basically comes down to a bit of dislike and resentment among the self-proclaimed “superior” dolphins, with none of the systemic discrimination which has marked real-world racism since its inception and which is now the main bastion of racism, overt racial violence having declined over the past forty years. To his credit, Brin at least points out how such racist feeling can develop into outright violence, even murder.

However, perhaps more interesting than dolphin racism in

Startide Rising

is the story of Charles Dart, the only chimpanzee member of the

Streaker

's crew. Dart's backstory is that he was a brilliant paleontologist, but that as a teacher, he was continuously scorned and overlooked by human students. This parallels the experience of many people of colour who rise to high positions in predominantly white Western culture: without malice, often without thought, ingrained racial stereotypes steer white people away from them, and cause whites to assume they are socially inferior.

Startide Rising

relates Dart's initial confusion at this state of affairs. After all, humans claim to be anti-racist, don't they? Why, they even have a few neo-chimpanzees (a very newly Uplifted species) on their Terragen Council. It is at this point that Charles Dart learns about the concept of tokenism: accepting a few members of a given racial group (one, if the overall group is small enough, or sometimes even if it isn't that small) into a larger group, and then expecting those “tokens” of said racial group to represent the group as a whole. (Members of the dominant group—often white and also often male, heterosexual, nondisabled, nonpoor, etc.—are never expected to represent that group as a whole; they only ever represent themselves as individuals.)

This mention of tokenism is exceptionally ironic, as

Startide Rising

includes perhaps the archetypal token minority: Emerson D'Anite.

Of the seven human crew members of the

Streaker

, five have multiple chapters from their viewpoint and at least one subplot all their own. Admittedly, Toshio has a Japanese-sounding name, but that's the only hint we're given as to his ethnicity (which often implies race, though they're not the same thing). If he is indeed Japanese, then he still appears to share a culture with his white shipmates—a culture which is clearly influenced most strongly by present and historical Western culture. More on that later.

That leaves two human crew members: Hanness Suessi and D'Anite, both engineers. It's been a while since I read the book, but I remember Suessi being very much in the background; possibly the character didn't even have an “on-screen” appearance.

D'Anite is the only character whose race is explicitly mentioned. In the short bit of description D'Anite gets during his introduction, the narrator helpful informs us that he's black. This same narrator completely fails to provide the same details when describing the other six humans on board, including all five viewpoint characters. But then again, in a book written by a white author in a culture whose face in popular media is overwhelmingly white, whiteness is assumed unless otherwise specified. (In the third book,

The Uplift War

, the narrator again takes pains to point out that a random scientist is black. The only other time race as it applies to humans is mentioned is when the book discusses the possible American Indian ancestry of the main human character, Robert Oneagle. Since said ancestry is uncertain, we can infer that it isn't obvious judging by appearance alone. Again, Occam's Razor tells us what

obvious going by appearance alone.)

I think we can safely assume that D'Anite is the only person of colour aboard the

Streaker

. He has one memorable scene of vaguely mentorly banter with one of the viewpoint characters, and after that, if he's mentioned at all it's only doing engineer stuff. The textual equivalent of one of those extras working control consoles and other pieces of equipment on the

Enterprise

, while Scotty or Geordi is getting the actual work done. Oh, yeah, you're a real hero of racial equality, Mr. Brin.

[1]

Rationalizing Tokenism and Bullshitting the Audience, or You Fail African History 101

Another innovative approach to the problem of race in Western fiction can be found in Connie Willis' 1997 novel

To Say Nothing of the Dog

. The book takes place fifty years in the future, by which point, humankind has invented time travel, and the Oxford history department routinely utilizes it to study the past.

Willis uses the time travel device to play with various historical settings. In

To Say Nothing of the Dog

, her setting of choice is Victorian England. She also introduces a historical “danger scale” running from one to ten.

The main story of

To Say Nothing of the Dog

involves the main character in a Wodehouse-esque series of misadventures in the Oxford area of Victorian England. Early in the book, Willis introduces a minor character—the only one whose race is given—a mathematician named “T.J.” Lewis. At one point, Lewis explains that he cannot go back in time because “all of history is a ten (most dangerous) for blacks.” Since the time travel department is presently under the control of a tyrannical, micromanaging neo-aristocrat, T.J. adds that it's the first time his skin colour has ever come as an advantage, suggesting that racism is still alive and flourishing in 2050s England (which seems depressingly likely).

I know I've already gone on a couple long tangents in this essay, but permit me to pause here for a minute while I unpack the incredible amount of disturbing implications attached to this one brief exchange.

This “history is too dangerous for black people” line is a pretty obvious attempt by Willis to excuse her use of all-white main casts. Her other characters are all either time travellers or residents of the past, so of course they have to be white (there's an obvious flaw in that logic, which I'll get to a little later). We readers know, of course, that if Willis really had any interest in writing people of colour she would find a way to do so, so we correctly identify this argument for exactly what it is: a cop-out.

But if you stop and think a little, the specific argument Willis uses is not just a cop-out;

it's completely frakking stupid

. I would be shocked if Willis did not acknowledge the 400+ year history of black suffering, much greater than the collective suffering of whites.

I can accept that statistically, throughout recent history, it's been more dangerous to be black than to be white. To go from there to implying that

all

of human history has been more dangerous for blacks than London in the middle of the Nazi blitz (a level eight danger, as I recall) is nothing short of ludicrous. I ask you, the entirety of human history as a sort of

Shark Island Extermination Camp

for black people? Seriously?

At this point, I feel it behoves me to point out that I'm not trying to single out Willis for this kind of stupidity. Racist Western ideology does not acknowledge the fact that racism as we know it today is not an eternal fact and was probably invented only a few hundred years ago. More insidiously, dominant white Western culture only acknowledges people of colour in chronicling oppressive race relations.

In the United States, historical treatment of race relations is better today than it was before the civil rights movement, but it's sill very Eurocentric. Since we've been on the subject of blacks I'll point out that the best-known features of African American history in the contemporary U.S. are slavery, culminating in the Civil War, and segregation, culminating in the civil rights movement. The most well-known African Americans in U.S. history are known

specifically

for their part in battling white racism: Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, W.E.B. Du Bois, Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth and Frederick Douglass.

I'm not saying it's bad to remember and honour these heroic freedom-fighters, nor to remember and deplore the evils of slavery and segregation. The problem is that these are practically the

only

things white-dominated U.S. culture remembers about African American history.

Sure, it remembers a few black entertainers, and a very few politicians, litigators, and social scientists (all of the above suitably integrated into dominant white culture, more on that later). But what it doesn't remember so well is ordinary day-to-day life for an average black person. Day-to-day life that to this day includes a sizable amount of racism, but is not defined entirely by racism, any more than (to pick another group whose robust history is pointedly ignored) the life of an average poor person is defined entirely by classism.

It also ignores the distinguished history of black people

living in Africa

which before colonialism and the slave trade was not substantially more dangerous for them than living in Europe was for white people.

So it's understandable for a white woman like Willis to fall into the trap of assuming the whole of black history is nothing but Shark Island-esque suffering. But even so, that's only if you assume she wrote down her first, culturally-informed notion of black history without stopping to think about it for three solid seconds, which is just lazy.

You'd also expect someone as interested in history as Willis to know better, but that points out yet another problem. I said earlier that since the main action in Willis' book takes place in a historical setting, of course all her characters have to be white. That's not quite true. What I meant is that the main action takes place in a

specific

historical setting where it would be highly incongruous to have people of colour playing a major role: namely, upper-class Victorian England, Oxford vicinity.

I don't exactly condemn Willis for writing a story which takes place in white, upper-class Britain. It's just as legitimate a location for a story as, say, a Victorian slum or farm, or a slave ship. My problem is that I suspect “white” and “upper-class” were Willis' default decisions. I'm convinced that if the thought of locating the story in any of the numerous nonaristocratic social contexts of Victorian Britain even entered Willis' head, she immediately dismissed them because there weren't any good stories there.

In doing so, Willis is both buying into and perpetuating the prevailing myth that there is no real black history, no real poor history, no real non-European history for that matter. (This is one area where racism and classism intersect: the insistence on basing stories around Victorian aristocrats is inherently classist, but since historically there have been very few upper class people of colour in Western societies, it is also racist.)

I know this is highly speculative: I don't have an actual magic door into Willis' specific psychology, but ultimately, for the purposes of this essay, it doesn't matter. Whether or not my observations apply to Willis in particular, they

apply to the wider culture. Even if Willis has considered all this, she still ended up going with the all-white-cast-except-for-token-black-guy-set-in-Victorian-era-Oxford angle.

And believe it or not, this sort of passive racism is often the

best

case scenario.

Cultural Demonization

People who've read my review of Crichton's

State of Fear

may recall that the lack of any main characters of colour other than the generic sidekick was not the only problem the book had regarding race relations.

While there were not other protagonists of colour, there were several antagonists. Not just antagonists who happen to be people of colour, but island natives who in their hatred of all things Western want to go back to the old ways—including cannibalism. Keep in mind that “Western” in this context translates as “white Anglo-Saxon.” “Western culture” means a culture of white Europeans and Euro-Americans. People of colour can become part of such a culture, but it isn't a culture by them, for them, or about them.

Anyway, the island natives in

State of Fear

are villainous because they're backward, primitive natives who eschew all Western civilization in favour of homegrown barbarity. Meanwhile, more enlightened native peoples want nothing more than to leave their squalid, oppressive villages (which did not at all become unlivable partly on account of past and present Western imperialism, oh no), and immerse themselves in Western education, Western technology, Western advances, and, most importantly of all, civilizing Western culture.

This, at least, is the impression one gets from

State of Fear

, and seen from this angle, Sanjong represents the ideal person of colour: apart from his name, he has fully internalized Western values and thus become civilized. He is now worthy to fight on the side of good—though only, of course, as an adjunct to the white Western heroes.

I know Crichton is merely attempting to subvert the liberal “Big Bad West vs. victimized Third World” binary Uma Narayan criticizes in her book

Dislocating Culture

. However, unlike Narayan, Crichton merely reverts to promoting the colonial “Western = good, civilized, non-Western = bad, uncivilized” paradigm which the “Big Bad West versus victimized Third World” narrative is in revolt against. This is not exactly a step forward.

Several months ago, I wrote a positive review of the 2005 American thriller

The Interpreter.

However, since reviewing

State of Fear

I've been forced to reexamine my thinking about the movie.

What I've realized is that the villains of

The Interpreter

were not just people of colour, but an African dictator and his minions. This in itself is not a problem. As Narayan points out, it's good for Westerners to exercise extreme caution in criticizing other cultures, but that's not the same as saying we shouldn't criticize them at all. There's nothing inherently wrong with First World cinema depicting Third World dictators as villains.

Who does

The Interpreter

depict as heroes, though? The local resistance to the dictator is crushed halfway through the movie, leaving only one force to oppose him: the heroic defenders of Western civilization.

Sure, it's supposed to be the United Nations who are the heroes, an organization of the world's countries coming together to bring a tyrant to justice.

But who does the movie focus on? Who exposes the dictator's plot for the World Court to indict him? Who spends the first hundred-and-twenty minutes trying to foil the villain's plans/dodge his assassins?

Let me give you the run-down: First and most prominently is Silvia Broome, the white African woman who left her country's armed resistance to the dictator's rule to become an interpreter at the U.N.. She lives in New York, speaks with a British accent, and appears to have pretty much abandoned her former African culture. While there are a few noteworthy exceptions to the latter case, on the whole I think it's safe to say that Silvia is largely Westernized.

And the other heroes of

The Interpreter

who do most of the legwork? Tobin Keller, Dot Woods, Doug (interesting that they didn't come up with a last name for him) and all the others are either white Westerners or Westernized people of colour, all of them American, members of the Secret Service and New York Police Department.

From a geopolitical point of view, the story is one of the United States—the supreme Western power—rescuing the helpless Africans from their own backward, repressive culture.

I don't have a problem as such with Westernized people of colour

in stories set entirely within Western nations

. People of colour who have lived for generations in the United States—especially descendants of African slaves, whose culture was brutally suppressed by the slave trade—are likely to be largely acculturated to mainstream white culture (although they're also likely to have a few important cultural differences from their white neighbours).

From a cultural point of view, the problem with

State of Fear

and

The Interpreter

is not that they depict Westernized people of colour in heroic roles. The problem is that it shows heroic Western whites and Westernized people of colour bravely defending the human race from villainous, expressly non-Western people of colour.

In a society as steeped in racism and cultural imperialism as the United States, subtext such as that found in

The Interpreter

is depressingly commonplace, but it's striking that you can find it in such an obviously progressive-minded movie.

But it's also telling that even such a progressive movie as

The Interpreter

contains such patently racist, imperialist messages. It's equally telling that even now, in 2009, we can have a violent controversy in the science fiction/fantasy community over the depiction of people of colour and cultural misappropriation.

What is this telling us? That clearly, we've got a long way still to go.

[1]

According to sources on the internet, D'anite plays a bigger part in the sequel trilogy,

Uplift Storm

. It's entirely possible that this second series is much better when it comes to depicting people of colour than the original, which would be a point in Brin's favour, but it doesn't do much for

Uplift

as a self-contained trilogy.Themes:

Topical

Minority Warrior

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Arthur B

at 10:00 on 2009-06-15Interesting article, though I have to take you up on one point:

Could you go into what basis you made this call? I think it's tremendously difficult to say whether an author chooses a particular setting because they couldn't think of a good story in an alternative setting, or they chose the setting because it best suited the story they wanted to tell.

In general, in fact, I think it's almost always healthier for people to tell the stories that they want to tell, although ideally people will take a look at their output occasionally and seriously think about whether there's representation issues. I can see that many demographics and societies are under-represented in fiction, but I don't think it's helpful to scold people when they write about the "wrong" sort of protagonist or setting - it's much more helpful, to my mind, to praise people when they

write about the sort of hero and milieu that have been seriously underserved, and to recommend said authors passionately.

If nothing else, I don't think directly challenging authors to write about protagonists outside their own demographic is necessarily going to make those authors less racist. I can think of nothing worse than Robert E. Howard (to take an extreme example) trying to write a story about a black hero; the man simply had so much baggage that a trainwreck would be inevitable. The exercise

can

help if it prompts authors to seriously think about race issues and representation and to properly research other cultures, but

they should be doing that anyway

if they are addressing race at all.

I'm also mildly uncomfortable with the idea that every creative work necessarily has to become a political battleground. I don't think it's a moral failing to occasionally read/write a story that's about sheer escapism and doesn't invite the reader to seriously consider real-life social issues; obviously it can be jarring when such stories betray actual prejudice or tokenism on the part of the author, but at the same time I can watch, say, the new

Star Trek

movie and enjoy it as a harmless spectacle without picking it apart.

As far as black history in

To Say Nothing of the Dog

goes, it's difficult for me to judge without the context of Lewis's comment - could he have been being sarcastic or exaggerating? Could he really have meant "all of history

which the time travel department is interested in sending missions to

"? If the time travel is under the control of a meddling, racist aristocrat it makes absolute sense that the department completely ignores black history - Willis might in fact be making a point about real-life history departments having a Eurocentric view of history.

State of Fear

gets worse and worse the more I learn about it, though.

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Rami

at 10:36 on 2009-06-15I was going to say something about your interpretation of Willis, but Arthur's already said most of it.

I think there is also, however, a point to be made in that when a lot of people speak of 'history' they're talking about their geographically specific history -- so history classes in Welsh schools, for instance, spend a good deal of time on Welsh history and only mention the independence of Bolivia in passing. This is exacerbated by the colonial baggage and navel-gazing common to Europe, but I don' think that's the root cause. So I have no trouble thinking that perhaps Willis, like most people, simply didn't think of history outside her continent when penning her lines.

I do want to say something about how you saw The Interpreter, though. I think the seeming Westernization of the main character isn't really that big a deal -- the fact of the matter being that, as apartheid clearly demonstrated, southern African whites were and to a large extent still are a separate cultural group. (I suspect, for instance, that her accent was meant to be South African or Zimbabwean, which hasn't changed much from the colonial British).

What I do think is a big deal, and why I don't like the film, is that it is in a very neo-colonial neo-imperialist way generically demonizing an African dictator and glorifying a resistance fighter while blithely ignoring all the associations

armed white resistance

has in the not-too-distant past.

I think it's pretty obvious The Interpreter was meant to be a thinly veiled allegory for oppressed Zimbabwean whites and the terror of Robert Mugabe, but I think it was handled clumsily by people with a hearty helping of white American middle-class privilege...

Welcome to FerretBrain, though, and thanks for the thought-provoking article :-)

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Rami

at 10:39 on 2009-06-15@Arthur:

I'm also mildly uncomfortable with the idea that every creative work necessarily has to become a political battleground.

I agree with the general concept but, and I don't mean to accuse you of insensitivity here, that's a lot easier to say if you're in the ethnic / racial / cultural majority.

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Arthur B

at 10:46 on 2009-06-15

It doesn't help, of course, that the situation in Zimbabwe has moved on since then; the experience of the white minority has sort of been forgotten in the popular consciousness now that the entire population is suffering, so the allegory the film was trying to set up might go over the head of audiences who have become used to reports of Mugabe being horrendous to

everyone

, not just the farmers.

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Arthur B

at 10:56 on 2009-06-15

I agree with the general concept but, and I don't mean to accuse you of insensitivity here, that's a lot easier to say if you're in the ethnic / racial / cultural majority.

No, you're right, this is why I say it can be jarring when stories that are meant to be escapist fun betray prejudice on the part of the author. Writers who want their work to be treated as lighthearted, noncontroversial entertainment have to bear the burden of ensuring that what they write is, in fact, lighthearted and noncontroversial, a trick which is more difficult than it sounds.

(This hinges, of course, on minority writers having as much chance of being published as people in the demographic majority. If the people writing escapist fiction are exclusively white that's clearly a problem, but it's debatable as to whether the problem lies with the authors drowning out other voices or the publishers overlooking minority talent.)

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Rami

at 11:09 on 2009-06-15

can be jarring when stories that are meant to be escapist fun betray prejudice on the part of the author

Well, I don't think this is limited to stories that are meant to be escapist fun, although I do agree that's where it's most likely to really annoy me :-)

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Arthur B

at 11:21 on 2009-06-15I wasn't limiting the jarring effect to stories that are meant to be escapist fun, but I do find it's where it's most jarring. If a story's meant to explore Serious Business then there's the expectation that the author will have points that he or she wants to make, and I as a reader can at least be ready for that with the understanding that I might or might not agree with the points being made, whilst there is no sound more unwelcome than an axe being ground somewhere you didn't expect to hear axes being ground. ;)

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Andy G

at 11:40 on 2009-06-15I think something that can enjoyed as escapism can still ALSO be approached on a more serious level - especially as there always are going to be cultural assumptions of one sort or another in the text that can be challenged or discussed. Doing this isn't necessarily to say that the author as an individual is especially biased and awful, because OF COURSE people write out of their own cultural background (that's what they do when they just try to write the best story they can). It's more about engaging with the wider cultural concepts as they appear in the text.

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Andy G

at 11:41 on 2009-06-15P.S. Apologies for excessive caps. How do I do italics?

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Rami

at 11:44 on 2009-06-15

no sound more unwelcome than an axe being ground somewhere you didn't expect to hear axes being ground

Ah, sorry, I think we are slightly at cross-purposes here -- my point was more to do with less-than-consciously prejudicial attitudes and portrayals. So, for instance, a Howard-imitator writing a lighthearted Conan-ish romp and completely failing to see the significance of the swarthy desert-dwelling 'barbarians' he's spliced in as his sorcerous villains.

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Rami

at 11:58 on 2009-06-15

How do I do italics?

I've added this to the

IAQs

, and put up a

commenters' guide

:-) In HTML, you basically put an

<em>

before a word or phrase you want to italicize, and a

</em>

after.

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Arthur B

at 13:26 on 2009-06-15

Ah, well that as always comes under the author's responsibility to assess their own text and seriously think about what biases may be showing, and to listen when people raise legitimate complaints about their work and change their approach accordingly, which I don't think escapist writers are excused from.

That said, the distinction between Racist A (the closet Klansman) and Racist B (someone who sometimes parrots the biases of their culture without thinking) isn't one that people always make in these discussions, which I suspect is one of the driving forces behind the racefail controversy. If I say that an aspect of a writer's work is racist, and don't clarify what you mean by that, then I'm not being clear whether I mean the author is acting like Racist A or Racist B, and if I go so far as to call someone a racist most people naturally assume that I mean Racist A, which is the more condemnatory accusation, since it implies direct malice rather than cultural myopia. Meanwhile, everyone happily condemns Racist A and declare that, because they aren't like Racist A, they can't be racist, when in fact anyone can act like Racist B at any time. The potential for needless drama is infinite.

This is why statements like "Everyone's a little bit racist" are dangerous. It's true in the sense that there's a little bit of Racist B in everyone - nobody is free from their own cultural background, after all - and we can forgive B's occasional slips so long as B understands what they did wrong. It's

not

true in the sense that we

aren't

all secretly Racist A inside, and it can't excuse A-like behaviour.

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Guy

at 13:43 on 2009-06-15Regarding "The Interpreter", my impression when I saw it was that the script had been written with a black woman in mind as the lead/title character, but that for one reason or another (grubby commerce/racist studio executives/inability to get the film made at all until Nicole Kidman put her hand up) the character had been re-written at the last minute. In any case, the result is that you get the Mississipi Burning problem; while ostensibly an anti-racist film, the overwhelming subtext is that racism is a problem to be resolved between racist and non-racist whites, with a side-role for non-whites either as passive observers of the process or, in the case of "The Interpreter", as villains.

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http://alexey-rom.livejournal.com/

at 15:02 on 2009-06-15

I ask you, the entirety of human history as a sort of Auschwitz/Gaza Strip for blacks? Seriously?

For mid-21st century blacks who would need to fit in there? Most of it would be pretty bad. Note that it may also be a political decision. As for African history, I agree with the previous commenters: the department is probably simply not interested in sending missions there, given its general understaffing, underfunding, etc. Note that much of European history -- all of Middle Ages, for a start! -- is in the same boat.

My problem is that I suspect “white” and “upper-class” were Willis' default decisions.

My own assumption would be that Britain was default; since she wanted to have Wodehouseian-Jeromian adventures, “upper-class” is necessary; and Victorian upper-class England happens to be white.

In her time travel series: Doomsday Book is set in a village during the Black Plague, and All-Clear is during the London Blitz (so are two short stories and a segment in To Say Nothing of the Dog). Neither are particularly aristocratic contexts. So I really don't see how you can believe

I'm convinced that if the thought of locating the story in any of the numerous nonaristocratic social contexts of Victorian Britain even entered Willis' head, she immediately dismissed them...

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http://alexey-rom.livejournal.com/

at 15:22 on 2009-06-15I just actually checked.

“Lady Schrapnell came and took everyone else. She would have taken me, but the first two-thirds of Twentieth Century and all of Nineteenth are a ten for blacks and therefore off-limits.” ... “I know, sir. I pointed that out, also the fact that the entire past is a ten for blacks.”

Given that he starts with pointing out a specific time period as being ten for blacks, it seems to me that the second ten may be an editorial mistake (presumably for eight or nine). It is also something Jones tells Lady Schrapnell to avoid being press-ganged, so it may be a white lie. (Though "the fact that" counts against this idea.)

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Jamie Johnston

at 19:36 on 2009-06-15Interesting stuff.

I must say, Lewis' comment about "all of history" does sound to me (not that I've read the book or anything) like a white writer trying to be all righteous about race rather than something a black British mathematician in that scenario would actually say. He isn't a historian, so one can forgive him for having the incorrect impression that the whole of the

Euro-American

past is "a ten for blacks", but it would be quite surprising if it simply never occurred to him that "the entire past" includes the history of Africa, whereas that's exactly the sort of unexamined assumption a white person would make.

The reason I say it's incorrect to think of the whole of the Euro-American past being "a ten for blacks" is that there's no evidence I can think of that blacks would have found the Roman world any more dangerous than any other non-Roman people. Not that an Oxford historian would think of that: they tend to think of History as going back only as far as the early middle ages, before which there is only Classics. :)

On a different note:

racism is still alive and flourishing in 2050s England (which seems depressingly likely)

... says L. I'm not sure one need be so depressed, actually. Not that racism will be entirely gone from Britain by 2050, but I shall be genuinely surprised if there's still any significant level of black-white racism among non-posh city-dwellers under the age of 60. The synthesis of Afro-Caribbean British youth culture and European British youth culture is already so far progressed in London's less affluent layers that discrimination between black-skinned and white-skinned members of that generation would be as ridiculous as discrimination between blue-eyed and green-eyed ones. The process is less advanced with British teenagers of South Asian and East Asian descent, and with teenagers of all kinds in the countryside and small towns; but since urban youth culture tends in Britain to become the general popular culture of the next generation, 2050 may not be ludicrously unrealistic.

What there will be, in spades, is xenophobia; but that's another kettle of fish.

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Robinson L

at 22:00 on 2009-06-15

L. Robinson is valiantly undeterred by Racefail.

(Funny thing: Before I figured out that Kyra provides the taglines, the one I came up with read: "L Robinson is characteristically late jumping on the Racefail bandwagon.")

Welcome to FerretBrain

Thanks, Rami. I've actually been hanging out here for a while on OpenID, but I thought "L Robinson" would make a better Contributer moniker than "Arkan2."

I want to start out by saying that although I'm working from a few specific examples here (and occasionally getting perhaps a bit too personal about the authors' choices) my main aim is not to criticize those works of fiction specifically, but rather to use those examples to illustrate some more overarching trends.

I do have some issues with Willis which are specific to her (and I'll get to those in a minute), but my point is that I think that for Western writers and Western audiences (not even necessarily white Western, you understand) white, Western, and some amount of class privilege are the accepted defaults.

It's possible Willis put just as much real consideration into making her protagonist a person of colour or a setting that was more open to people of colour as what she actually went with. It's equally possible that she put just as much consideration into the option of having a female protagonist as a male one.

However, most white Western male authors with any siginicant degree of class privilege, which is to say most Western authors, would

not

put as much serious consideration into having a protagonist of colour as one who's white. Even today, most wouldn't even put as much serious consideration into having a female protagonist as a male one.

The cultural assumption in the US at least is that

unless a story is specifically dealing with racial issues

it will have an all-white cast except for one or maybe to token minorities.

To put it another way, the expectation is that unless you are specifically trying to be political, you will write stories predominantly about white people.

Often this is incongruous given the setting (more often when you switch from the race lens to the gender lens), but sometimes you could make the counterargument that "It would be unrealistic to have many people of colour in that setting." But what I was trying to point out in the essay is that another cultural expectation is that (again, unless the writer is specifically trying to be political) a story will be set in a context where you wouldn't necessarily be surprised to see a white majority. (E.g. Victorian England, Oxford area.)

I find the very assumption that a Western mainstream book, movie, TV show or what-have-you

must

be political to have more than a token racial minority cast (or be set in a context where even racism couldn't defend a majority white cast) deeply racist. My intention is to condemn that assumption, not the many authors who have failed to escape it.

I'll grant you prejudice, Arthur, but if you want to talk about tokenism, the new

Star Trek

is an excellent place to start. Tokenism is still racist, but it's also so prevalent that I can't really blame white Western writers and directors for employing it under normal circumstances. (I actually do take exception to

Star Trek||

for that, because for me, one of the key points of Star Trek has always been its at-least-somewhat-succesful attempts to be progressive, sometimes even radically so.)

I don't single out

Uplift

and

To Say Nothing of the Dog

just because they employ tokenism. I single out the former because the author actually brings up tokenism and racism in another context, and the latter because it draws attention to its own tokenism and offers a quarter-arsed excuse for being tokenistic which is if anything even more racist than just being tokenistic in the first place.

The meddling arisocrat in question only recently made a donation to the history department and started micromanaging it, and I didn't get the impression she was supposed to be racist, Arthur.

It is possible that T.J. was lying to get out from under her thumb, or was exaggerating/being sarcastic, or that his comment was supposed to be interpreted as

"all of history

which the time travel department is interested in sending missions to

, but I certainly never got that sense from reading the passage, and in instances like this, the burden is on the author to convey that impression to the people who

aren't

reading closely for those racial nuances.

I ask you, the entirety of human history as a sort of Auschwitz/Gaza Strip for blacks? Seriously? For mid-21st century blacks who would need to fit in there? Most of it

would

be pretty bad.

Bad yes, but we're not talking about bad. We're talking about

worse than the London Blitz

. We are talking about constant danger of immanent death, regardless of specific context. Hell, Birmingham Alabama was not a good place for black people to be during the first half of the 20th century, but do you really expect me to believe that even at its worst, it was significantly more dangerous for a random black person than London in the middle of a bombing raid?

Thanks for the quote, Alexey, but I don't think it was an editorial mistake. I think he said "ten" and meant "ten." Neither lady Schrapnell nor Mr. Dunworthy have any problem sending Ned, his companions, or that guy in

Fire Watch

into a level eight situation (the Blitz), and given what we're told of Lady Schrapnell, I'm guessing she only back down from "ten" because ten means "absolutely not allowed under any circumstances whatsoever" carved into the White Cliffs of Dover.

You've got a point about her other stories taking place in the the Blitz and other places (haven't read

Doomsday Book

, I'll take your word for it). But I guess what I really meant is that she writes in contexts which are familiar to white Western audiences. (I guess a Victorian farm or slum wouldn't be so much of a stretch at that--just because I haven't read Dickens doesn't make him any less mainstream.) A village during the black plague, too.

But a community with a high percentage of people of colour? Unless it involves slaves somehow, that's not what one generally things about when they think about Europe before, say, 1900. Which is primarily why, I believe, Willis probably didn't even seriously consider locating any of her stories in one.

Rami, you've got a point about people writing their own history because that's what they know more about. (I believe Willis is actually American, or at least has lived in the U.S. for long periods of time, but it is her history if not necessarily her continent.) But I suspect she doesn't know much more about the history of people of colour in Europe than I know about the the history of people of colour in North America, apart from big things like slavery and segregation. This is in itself a problem from a racial standpoint, though totally understandable. If I chose then to go ahead and write an historical novel set in the US not relating to slavery or segregation and did not think it necessary to consider the history of people of colour in that historical and geographical setting, that would exacerbate the problem (although, again, it would be understandable given my general social context).

Hmm, I don't remember getting Guy's imperssion that the main character of

The Interpreter

was supposed to be a black woman originally, but maybe. If so, it might make some things even worse, though, such Keller talking Sylvia out of shooting the dictator in the end.

I didn't think of

The Interpreter

as a movie trying to deal with racism, so I didn't so much mind the white protagonists and black antagonists. It wasn't till I looked through the cultural lens that the movie got disturbing.

I didn't mean to make a big deal out of Sylvia being Westernized. I just threw that in for completeness sake, because I'm talking about race

and

culture specifically, and she was a white African at one point.

Huh, I don't know any details about the situation in Zimbabwe, so I took it as an allegory of Mugabe being an arsehole to everybody, not just white Africans. (I appreciated the fact that both resistance leaders were black--if either of them had been white too ...)

I actually got a lot of good things out of

State of Fear

(well, a few), but yeah, there were some aspects to it that are

very

disturbing.

Finally (ye gods, I'm actually coming to the end of this comment), Arthur makes an excellent point with the Racist A and Racist B archetypes. When I talk about racism these days, I'm pretty much talking about Type B unless specified otherwise, because that's by far the more prevalent and destructive. But you're right that most people don't think about it that way, and in that kind of situation, as you say "The potential for needless drama is infinite."

That's encouraging news about the integration of youth cultures in London, Jamie. Obviously, I don't know as much about England as most of the people here, but I do know that on this side of the pond, racial discrimination is so systemic that it would take a

major

upheaval (more than just better integration of cultures) to overturn that completely. Whether or not such an upheaval is likely to happen in the next 50 years is open for debate, but I feel there's a strong possibility that it might not.

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Arthur B

at 22:42 on 2009-06-15

Rami, you've got a point about people writing their own history because that's what they know more about.

To play devil's advocate a bit: the advice people always give to new writers (and it's a pretty effective bit of advice) is "write what you know", and people will

always

know the culture they grew up in far better than they'll know anyone else's. The solution to a lack of white protagonists in popular fiction isn't to convince white authors to write about black characters; that treats the symptoms, but not the disease (and on those occasions when said white authors carry their biases over into their black protagonists the results are ugly). The solution is to get to a point where minority authors make up a representative proportion of the people producing work in the genres in question. Of course, a white author can

try

to write from the point of view of a black protagonist, but you can't expect them to actually speak for black culture, because then you get

rather embarrassing consequences

- in fact, you get what you complain about in

The Interpreter

, where racism is a problem to be solved by nice white people shouting down nasty white people.

So my question is this: does the lack of black protagonists in a particular genre betray a lack of black authors being published in it? And if that's the case, what do we need to do to get some diversity on the bookshelves?

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Shim

at 22:57 on 2009-06-15I'd really like to have seen the "danger scale". I mean, even travelling back in Britain, most people would be well out of their depth within a hundred years or so.

Appearance would be a big problem - even with appropriate clothing, modern hairstyles wouldn't fit, so in their modern life, the historians would have to keep their hair in various ancient styles, tailored to the period in questions. Many people would also be so tall and healthy-looking, with modern diet and medicine, that they'd attract attention instantly.

Then there's behaviour. Most importantly, language, which changes fairly rapidly, and further back in history, was even more region-specific. So the historians would need to master the dialect of each region they visited, in each period they visited it, to fit in. They'd still be spotted as outsiders.

Also, historically, people tended to do things. So if you weren't a crofter, or a smith, or a fletcher, people would wonder how you earnt your keep. If you were supposed to be too rich for that, you'd have to fear robbery, murder or kidnapping even more than normal; and you could expect questions from those people who knew about the rich and who they were.

Because they'd be conspicious (and they'd presumably be taking notes, or observing things, which is suspicious) they'd probably be hauled before the local mayor, sheriff, chieftain, prince or insert title here, to explain themselves. Law is complex and ever-changing. They might be had for vagabondage, or begging, or as likely runaway serfs, or for failure to provide two days' service to the Earl, or trespass, or wearing textiles or colours, not suitable for their status, or insubordination. All kinds of minor laws or rules of etiquette (probably impossible to research - people didn't record these things) could land them in trouble. They'd almost certainly have you for spying if you were going around taking notes.

But basically the point I'm belabouring is that history is bloody dangerous. It's full of wars and robberies and bandits and violent street gangs and rabid dogs and the Black Death and infected water supplies and tribal warfare and

battles between students and townsfolk (in Oxford)

. I'd think ethnicity was not your major concern.

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Viorica

at 00:19 on 2009-06-16

but if you want to talk about tokenism, the new Star Trek is an excellent place to start.

In all fairness though, they're pretty much stuck with the original cast. And the original cast was all about tokenism. I know some people have taken Spock's arc in the new movie as an allegory for the problems faced by biracial/bicultural children, but I suppose that depends on the viewer. *shrug*

Not that racism will be entirely gone from Britain by 2050, but I shall be genuinely surprised if there's still any significant level of black-white racism among non-posh city-dwellers under the age of 60.

Seriously? I'm not British, so I don't know what it's like, but even if outright hatred is gone, there's still the more subtle forms that this essay is all about.

I think that part of the reason so few white writers write about people of colour is that they can't imagine doing it without addressing racism somehow, and they don't want to/are afraid of addressing racism, so they try dodging the problem altogether by having an all-white cast. Except of course that all they've managed to do is further the problem.

(. . . and then when people actually do try to give PoCs a fair representation,

they get screwed over anyway

)

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Sonia Mitchell

at 01:02 on 2009-06-16Congrats on your first article :-) You make some very interesting points - I've not read most of the books you discuss so I can't comment much on them, but it was a good read.

there's no evidence I can think of that blacks would have found the Roman world any more dangerous than any other non-Roman people - Jamie

The Emperor's Babe by Bernadine Evaristo is a really interesting novel about a black woman living in Roman Britain. Aside from being in free verse it's a pretty light read that borders on being chick lit, so it's nearly mainstream. A few more novels like that being published would be no bad thing.

An interesting part of the author's note credits a book for opening her eyes about the ancient history of black Britain, which she hadn't really known about (Evaristo herself is black).

does the lack of black protagonists in a particular genre betray a lack of black authors being published in it? And if that's the case, what do we need to do to get some diversity on the bookshelves? - Arthur

I'd say that's a big part of it. I notice at least one publishing house has a scheme to actively recruit members of ethnic minorities, which may have an effect several years down the line when those recruits are in a position to be commissioning (which is definitely not to say that they are the only ones who should/would want to commission work from minorities).

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Dan H

at 15:24 on 2009-06-16

The solution to a lack of white protagonists in popular fiction isn't to convince white authors to write about black characters; that treats the symptoms, but not the disease

I think you're dead wrong here, actually.

To get some diversity on the bookshelves, we need to convince publishers that their primarily white readership will read books about black people.

To do *that* we need to get people to realize that a book can have a non-white protagonist without being about race.

To do *that* we need to get people to realize that "white" is *not* the default and that a story can, in fact, be "just about sheer escapism" while still having a non-white protagonist.

To do *that* we need to get white authors to write about non-white people. We need to get people to realize that you do not need a *reason* to make a character non-white any more than you need a *reason* not to. We need people to see that the choice is not "do I write a book about wizards or a book about black people" but rather "what race are the people in my book about wizards".

If white people can't be expected to *write* about black people, they can't be expected to *read* about black people, and if they can't be expected to *read* about black people, how can publishers be expected to publish books about black people?

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Rami

at 16:26 on 2009-06-16

we need to get people to realize that "white" is *not* the default

Yes. This × 100. We're never going to see real diversity on the bookshelves until non-white characters are as commonplace as non-white people.

Sure, a lot of white authors are going to get it wrong. Lots of them, doubtless, are going to get defensive when people point out their mistakes. But I think those are probably both inevitable and essential in actually getting past racefail and doing it right.

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Andy G

at 16:27 on 2009-06-16

To do *that* we need to get people to realize that a book can have a non-white protagonist without being about race.

I think that before you get to that stage, you have a stage where you have non-white protagonists and it IS about race. You don't persuade the white readership to read books with black protagonists by persuading them that those books aren't about race; you persuade them to read books that are about race (the hidden assumption is that they won't read books about race, based on the belief that e.g. books about race are not entertaining, light reads).

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Arthur B

at 16:27 on 2009-06-16

To clarify my point: obviously, white authors should feel free to write about black characters and vice versa. You are probably right that too many authors take "white" as a default option, and this is a habit people need to break themselves of. In the case where an author's writing about sheer escapism then there

shouldn't

be any issue, so long as the author doesn't actually casually drop racist ideas left and right because they're Robert E. Howard and can't help themselves; if you're just writing about minority

characters

and aren't making a statement about a minority

culture

, then there's absolutely no problem.

(It strikes me, in fact, that these discussions would go a lot better if we avoided using the term "people", because that can mean "characters" or "culture" equally.)

I think the difficulty white authors have here, however, is that it isn't

just

their decision as to whether their story is about race, just as it isn't

solely

JK Rowling's call as to whether

Deathly Hallows

is about how brave and noble Harry Potter is. I think because race is such an emotive subject, and because authors with their hearts in the right place

don't

want to upset readers, they often feel unable to write minority characters for fear of, well, arguments like this. And to be fair, if a white author did write a story they intended to be about sheer escapism, and if they did happen to include a black protagonist, and if the portrayal of said protagonist was completely racist and horrible (because, say, the author is Robert E. Howard and he simply couldn't help himself), there would rightly be a shitstorm about it, and race would very much enter into the equation.

I suspect that you are correct that many - probably even most - white authors don't write escapist stories featuring black protagonists because they just treat whiteness as a default. But I suspect that there are also authors out there who don't write light-hearted escapist stories about black protagonists because they don't trust themselves not to fuck up, and/or they don't trust the audience not to take a different interpretation of what they have written. I suspect that if this fear is acute enough to prevent white authors actually writing about black protagonists, then it's probably based on a sound foundation (if you can't trust yourself to write about women you probably do have issues about women), but the only way through the impasse is to encourage white authors to bite the bullet and go ahead anyway if they're contemplating writing about black protagonists, and to rake them over the coals if they fail.

A thought experiment for authors: design a cast of six characters, but don't come up with any demographic-specific details about them - just come up with a list of personality traits for each of them. Then randomly assign genders, races, cultural backgrounds and sexual orientations to each of them. If you think some of the personality traits you've assigned to a character are inappropriate for the demographic traits you've randomly assigned to them, you might want to look at why you think that.

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Arthur B

at 16:37 on 2009-06-16

We're never going to see real diversity on the bookshelves until non-white characters are as commonplace as non-white people.

Is this actually the aim, or is the aim just getting the incidence of non-white protagonists more or less equal to the incidence of non-white people in the cultural context in question? I think the ideal should be for fiction to accurately reflect the culture it describes; there shouldn't be a 50/50 white-nonwhite split unless you're actually writing about an area where that sort of split exists. (On a global scale, of course,

about 1 in 5 protagonists should be Han Chinese

...)

Of course, if you're not dealing with real-world demographics, then all's fair.

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Rami

at 16:57 on 2009-06-16

cultural context in question

Associated with non-white characters are non-white cultural contexts, of course. How about writing novels set in the

kingdom of Mutapa

Mughal Empire

rather than

Elizabethan

Shropshire?

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Viorica

at 17:46 on 2009-06-16I think part of the problem is that most Western people are more familiar with Western history than they would be with African or Asian history. I could name all of Henry VIII's wives by the time I was twelve, but the most I know about Imperial China is that it was once ruled by the Tang dynasty.

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Arthur B

at 17:59 on 2009-06-16Well, there you have a chicken and egg problem: to write a decent story set in the kingdom of Mutapa an author would need to properly research the place, but it wouldn't occur to many authors to research the kingdom if they hadn't already heard of it and were interested enough to try to write a story set there. And if not many people are writing about it in popular culture, it's going to be more difficult for people to hear about it in the first place.

Which sort of steers us back to the history departments: a great way to encourage people to write fiction set in cultures they haven't heard of is to make sure there's decent, accessible, engaging non-fiction readily available about the place. It doesn't help that many libraries (which you really need to use for research, even in these proud Internet days) have a bottom-up approach to history: a public library will usually have a really decent local history section describing things in fine detail, a fairly extensive collection of work on national history, and a "world history" section which can only ever hope to give a vague overview of the globe. I think the Internet can help a lot these days, especially if local history buffs worldwide make a big effort to get information about their area online, but it can't do everything.

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Robinson L

at 20:02 on 2009-06-16@Dan and Arthur:

Really, I think you're both right. They both need to be done. Even when we do have more writers of colour in the business, that doesn't totally excuse white writers writing completely token--there's plenty of female writers out there, but that doesn't mean that a lot of male writers still need to learn to write better female characters.

It seems to me we should be working on both simultaneously.

Obviously, writing about other cultures is also important. The last section of the essay is all about how current cultural representation in modern Western mainstream is ... problematic. (It's also a much dicier proposition, but I not, I submit, impossible.)

Funnily enough, the next essay I'm working on is about just such a book, although since I'm woefully unfamiliar with the culture in question, I can't really assess how good a job it does.

Shimmin, Willis does handwave some of that stuff by giving the History Department its own hairdresser and costume-maker and these audio lessons to teach its agents manners and customs. You're right that realistically, this wouldn't cover everything, but I'm prepared to let my willing suspension of disbelief stretch that far.

But I think the general point you're trying to make is that (apart from a couple

very specific

temporal and geographical locations in history), time-traveling at all is likely to be a lot more dangerous than what colour your skin is when you time-travel. I agree with that.

Re: Star Trek||:

In all fairness though, they're pretty much stuck with the original cast.

Personally, I would've been happier if they'd ditched the old cast and started out with a clean slate. They could've found some other strong element (perhaps a theme) of the old Trek to justify calling it "Star Trek." (Having to put some real mental effort into making it Star Trek, they might've come up with a plot with fewer holes than a cosmic sieve and more twists than a 3rd grade rollercoaster.)

Congrats on your first article :-)

Thanks Sonia!

we need to get people to realize that "white" is *not* the default

I think I've been trying to say that. Thanks, Dan.

Ooh, thought experiment. I'm not sure if I could actually make it work without assigning gender at least in my head, but it'd be interesting to try. Good one, Arthur.

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Shim

at 07:21 on 2009-06-17

I suspect...white authors don't write escapist stories featuring black protagonists because they just treat whiteness as a default. But I suspect that there are also authors out there who don't write light-hearted escapist stories about black protagonists because they don't trust themselves not to fuck up...

I suppose there may also a kind of "optimality" going on. Typically, if you want to write a story with protagonists who aren't like you, then a) you've got to do a lot of research over and above the effort of writing the story, and b) you'll probably make mistakes.* So it seems to me like you

would

need a good reason to not make them like you - either you need it for the story, or you're interested in that kind of character already, or you think it would make the story better. At the same time, there's a kind of trade-off - does the increased coolness of the story outweigh the effort of research and extra attention to character? Also, will your story end up being

not as good as it would have been had you made the character like you?

Because that's a real risk. And if writers are pressed for time (and indeed need to keep money rolling in) then the longer they spend on research, the less efficient they are. So, another YSMCWASM then..?

*Of course, if you're totally making up the culture, race, species etc. of the character this is less of a concern, at least if you do it consistently.

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Dan H

at 09:58 on 2009-06-17

I think that before you get to that stage, you have a stage where you have non-white protagonists and it IS about race.

I see where you're coming from, and I do appreciate that I'm engaging in a certain degree of doublethink here.

Obviously if you write a book with a non-white protagonist, people are going to pick up on that and make it An Issue, and if you have a white protagonist they won't.

The thing is it *is* in fact still an issue. A white character does not have "zero ethnicity". Writing about white people makes a statement about race, just as much as writing about black people does. It's just a statement that most white people can comfortably ignore.

To put it another way, race is not an "issue" - it's people - and the only way to ignore the "issue" of race is to ignore the fact that non-white people exist. This is tremendously easy to do and, for a white person, has no particular drawbacks. But it's not neutral.

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Dan H

at 10:17 on 2009-06-17

Which sort of steers us back to the history departments

Is it just me, or is this all getting a bit Yes Minister? I mean, what you're basically saying here is that the underrepresentation of non-white people in fiction is not the responsibility of the people who write that fiction, the people who publish that fiction, or the people who read that fiction, but the responsibility of the Ministry of Education.

And of course it doesn't stop there, because we're never going to teach African history in British schools because the Daily Mail would have a *fit*, and the Daily Mail would have a fit because the people who read the Daily Mail are kind of racist, and they know what sells newspapers.

So we wind up with a situation where we can't take any action to combat racism until we have eliminated racism.

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Rami

at 11:01 on 2009-06-17

a great way to encourage people to write fiction set in cultures they haven't heard of is to make sure there's decent, accessible, engaging non-fiction readily available about the place.

True, but considering how hard it is to find accessible, engaging non-fiction about anything I don't know how much that'll help. I find it hard enough to find non-fiction I want to read about politics, for instance, and I spent lots of my degree reading academic journals about the topic so my standards for "engaging" and "accessible" are pretty low.

I suppose there may also a kind of "optimality" going on.

Oh, absolutely -- it's a pretty simple tradeoff between doing something with your characters' background (and possibly being lambasted on the Internet for it) and using that energy for something else (e.g. getting your book out the door quicker).

I think there are certainly things the community can and should do -- like giving more kudos to authors who are brave enough to try anyway, although it's a tricky balance between that and gently pointing out where they could do better. Perhaps we should expect and actively encourage Racefails, because without failing there's no forward movement.

But I don't think introducing an African history curriculum in primary schools with the ultimate aim of producing adults familiar enough with it to want to write books set in medieval Africa is going to be all that helpful.

Of course, if you're totally making up the culture, race, species etc. of the character

This is where I think it could and should make the most difference -- SF and fantasy authors can very easily have non-white protagonists and characters (although they don't tend to) and focus on the aliens / elves / whoever.

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Arthur B

at 11:18 on 2009-06-17

I'm not saying anything that even

resembles

that; what I'm saying is that the lack of popular nonfiction in a field contributes to the lack of popular fiction dealing with the subject matter - and on the flip side, histories of previously-unfashionable subjects that end up gripping the public imagination can create a market for fiction about those very same subjects. We wouldn't have had

The Da Vinci Code

without

The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail

- actually, that's a pretty good example, because it's a case where a popular history book (albeit one from the conspiracy fringe) ended up inspiring an insanely successful story, which in turn prompted an explosion of fictional and nonfictional interest in a heresy which by any measure had infinitely less impact on Christian history than, say, the Christological debates of the early Church councils or the Lutheran Reformation.

Of course, this only applies to historical fiction; writing about a racially homogeneous modern-day Britain is a distortion of facts which you can check simply by looking out of your window.

So we wind up with a situation where we can't take any action to combat racism until we have eliminated racism.

No, we wind up with a situation where we can't eliminate racism unless we take action to eliminate it

in all fields

, because racism in one particular pursuit (historical nonfiction, say) feeds racism in related pursuits (historical fiction, in this example); this is why cultural biases are so difficult to root out in the first place.

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Rami

at 11:56 on 2009-06-17

No, we wind up with a situation where we can't eliminate racism unless we take action to eliminate it in all fields

Which is absolutely true and very nice-sounding, but where do we start? I think it's rather easier to start in fiction than in non-fiction, personally -- less research absolutely necessary, more sales to provide incentives for the authors, etc.

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Wardog

at 11:57 on 2009-06-17Can I just point that the Internet has *already had a racefail*. Do we really need to have our own?

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Rami

at 11:59 on 2009-06-17By the way, congrats on your choice of topic, L. Robinson! In two days your article's leapt to 10th most-commented-on!

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Arthur B

at 12:10 on 2009-06-17

Which is absolutely true and very nice-sounding, but where do we start?

Surely the only answer to that is "Wherever the opportunity to act arises"? I mean, obviously fiction authors and publishers have the most ability to counteract racism in fiction, but surely everyone has a responsibility to tackle it in their own field, and surely successes in one area resonate elsewhere? You can't tackle "the beginning" of racism because it's a feedback loop, you just have to break the links wherever you find them.

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Jamie Johnston

at 18:54 on 2009-06-17

A thought experiment for authors...

- Arthur

That links with something I've had in mind reading these comments, which is how all this relates to writers working in dramatic rather than narrated forms. Writing a script you have an interestingly different set of options (or at least different angles on the same options). You can studiously attempt to avoid making any decisions about the skin-colour and even, to a limited extent and depending on the type of story and setting, the cultural background of all the characters, and leave it to the vicissitudes of casting; or you can have in your own mind an idea of the demographic characteristics of your characters and write their dialogue and actions in that way but say nothing about it in stage directions, leaving it up to the director to pick up on the details or not; or you can stipulate the characteristics in notes and stage-directions. And even in the second and third cases you know a director may well decide to cast it colour-blind or the director and actor together may consciously reinterpret a character's culture and colour.

And then, of course, matters are even more interesting for the writer of a radio-script.

On the topic of publishing and such, another thing to consider is the (translation and) publication of books written by and about ethnic-majority / cultural-majority people in parts of the world where the ethnic and cultural majorities are different from ours. Of course that still runs up against the problem of publishers thinking white British / American readers won't buy such things, but it does to some extent provide a work-around for a shortage of good manuscripts that fit the bill (if such a shortage exists). And that in turn has the potential to make it more natural for white British / American writers to think of writing such characters themselves.

I suppose I have in mind analogies with smaller cultural leaps like the fact that most British singers of popular music automatically sing in (approximations of) American accents because almost every genre of popular music comes from North America, and the fact that American writers of fantasy invariably think of it in terms of (approximations of) medieval European culture because the fantasy genre comes from Tolkein.

Of course to some extent that whole phenomenon tends to work the other way, in that the novel is a European invention and many non-western novelists adopt western assumptions along with the form (in particular I was struck to hear Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on the radio the other day saying that until she read Chinua Achebe it never occurred to her that novels could be about non-white people).

Er... I don't quite know where I was going with that, but there we are. Something to add to the conversation.

Can I just point that the Internet has *already had a racefail*. Do we really need to have our own?

- Kyra

I can't see any immediate danger of fail, but rest assured that if I do I'll be among the first to retire from the conversation. :)

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Rami

at 20:14 on 2009-06-17

most British singers of popular music automatically sing in (approximations of) American accents

I'm not sure about this, but I think that might be almost as much to do with the enunciation necessary to sing clearly -- most English accents I'm aware of aren't super-clear.

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Jamie Johnston

at 20:34 on 2009-06-17Would it be unhelpfully flippant of me to contrast Bob Dylan with Julie Andrews?

To be serious, yes, there are non-cultural reasons too, like the fact that North American vowels are generally better for long notes and that the British insistence of pronouncing the letter 't' as 't' rather than 'd' makes for hard sounds that interrupt the flow. But clarity of enunciation I'm not convinced about. In particular the North American singer has the very serious problem of being almost unable to distinguish between 'can' and 'can't'.

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Shim

at 22:14 on 2009-06-17

I have to say I'm not really convinced, because for one thing singers of other languages don't have a problem. Mandarin, for example, has no voiced stops like 'd', and a different vowel inventory. Gaelic singing manages vowels that sound quite alien if you're not used to it. Also, it's very much a genre-based phenomenon - British classical singers (where clarity tends to be important) tend to sing in something like RP, and folk singers usually keep their accents very distinct, whatever they are. Only "popular music" seems to Atlanticise, so I think it really is just part of the style.

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Rami

at 22:30 on 2009-06-17

British classical singers (where clarity tends to be important) tend to sing in something like RP

Ah, I didn't know that -- I've not heard many British classical singers.

singers of other languages don't have a problem

Hadn't thought of that - Bengali pop singers do sound decidedly odd with Western-influenced backing music, though I'd always assumed that was the different stress pattern the melody imposes.

Having thought about it, Jamie, you're probably right in that most pop singers are to some extent imitating their influences, so on balance they're likely to come out sounding American-ish.

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Dan H

at 23:50 on 2009-06-17

Surely the only answer to that is "Wherever the opportunity to act arises"?

Nice in theory, but a lot of the time the answer winds up being "whenever the opportunity to act arises, but not right now".

For example, you say:

I mean, obviously fiction authors and publishers have the most ability to counteract racism in fiction

But most of your comments on this article argue the exact opposite. Your suggestions for how to address the underrepresentation of non-white people in fiction have been for more non-white people to write fiction, and for there to be more popular histories about non-white cultures written. The idea that regular authors should actually consider having non-white protagonists is one you continually dismiss ("I don't think it's helpful to scold people when they write about the "wrong" sort of protagonist or setting," "I don't think it's a moral failing to occasionally read/write a story that's about sheer escapism and doesn't invite the reader to seriously consider real-life social issues," "The solution to a lack of white protagonists in popular fiction isn't to convince white authors to write about black characters," and so on).

If fiction writers and publishers are the people most able to combat racism in fiction, does it not follow that they have some level of responsibility to, well, do it?

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Arthur B

at 00:33 on 2009-06-18

Your suggestions for how to address the underrepresentation of non-white people in fiction have been for more non-white people to write fiction, and for there to be more popular histories about non-white cultures written.

I'm not seeking to let authors off the hook, I'm pointing out that they aren't writing in a vacuum and that there are factors outside of writers and publishers that encourage the status quo within fiction publishing. "Racism in fiction" isn't some isolated phenomenon that's completely isolated from racism in the rest of society. You are correct that the most direct and effective

single

way to tackle racism in fiction is for authors and publishers to try to stop being racist. But if we knock down the other factors that support the status quo in fiction

and

keep encouraging authors to do what needs to be done then things will progess

even more quickly

. And surely that's of benefit?

The idea that regular authors should actually consider having non-white protagonists is one you continually dismiss

I could say that the idea that the "regular author" is a white person is one you continually promote, but I'm going to put that aside.

("I don't think it's helpful to scold people when they write about the "wrong" sort of protagonist or setting,"

I stand by this: I think praising and encouraging people when they get things

right

is always going to be more effective because people have an irritating tendency to turtle up when you accuse them of casual racism. Obviously when people

grossly mishandle

race issues they should be called on it, but I don't think that we should tut and roll our eyes whenever a white author publishes a book about a white protagonist and sigh over another missed opportunity.

It's always more effective to save the rhetorical molotovs for when you can actually build a decent case against an author. The fact that one particular story by an author happens to possess a white protagonist or be set in a male-dominated society, to my mind, isn't enough by itself to justify accusations of bias; if an author

never

gets around to writing about a non-white protagonist, then you can start making the case that they are defaulting to whiteness, but by definition you can't really tell whether a writer is defaulting to a particular kind of protagonist or setting until you get more than one data point. (Of course, if you can actually cite stuff in the text that's indicative of bias that's a whole new deal.)

"I don't think it's a moral failing to occasionally read/write a story that's about sheer escapism and doesn't invite the reader to seriously consider real-life social issues,"

You will note in my later comments that I say that if authors actually do want to just write something light and not make race a big deal, the onus is on them to try and make sure that race does not, in fact, become an issue surrounding their work. I will be more explicit about this, since it seems necessary, and say that this means authors of lighthearted escapism need to master a very difficult trick: they ought to try and make sure their fiction is properly inclusive (because if it isn't then the audience will notice, and then race/gender/whatever demographic isn't being included will become an issue), but at the same time they need to be careful that their fiction doesn't become

about

how inclusive it is. This is a trick that should in principle be easy - scatter diversity liberally, try not to draw too much attention to it - but it's surprising how often people fail at it.

"The solution to a lack of white protagonists in popular fiction isn't to convince white authors to write about black characters," and so on).

I stand by this. I think convincing authors to write about protagonists who are not like themselves is generally healthy both for the authors and for the state of popular fiction, but at most it can only ever be

part of

the solution, not

the

solution.

Again, while I agree that it is the responsibility of authors

as a whole

to take the lead in tackling the issue, you can't place the responsibility entirely on their shoulders. We keep letting the publishers off the hook in this discussion, and I'm not convinced that's a smart idea. The point I was trying to make with the discussion about nonfiction is that

it is vastly easier for authors to broaden the range of their writing if the culture surrounding them supports it

. The history angle came up, after all, when Rami asked why UK authors are always wittering on about Elizabethan Shropshire and never show much interest in the Mutapa Kingdom or Mughal Empire, and I pointed out that authors would be vastly more likely to write about the latter if they've actually heard of the places in question in the first place (through popular history writers promoting the subject) and if they actually can get decent research materials on the places in question.

Yes, we

could

get to where we needed to be simply if authors took on the entire burden of getting us their themselves, but can we at least agree that we'll

get there a lot sooner

if the barriers to doing so were lowered?

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Arthur B

at 01:19 on 2009-06-18To clarify the above a bit, so there's absolutely no confusion:

obviously

, authors bear sole responsibility for what they write, and if they

are

actually biased and it's pointed out to them then it's a grave moral failing of them not to make the effort to change.

At the same time, we can't pretend that they're writing in a vacuum; just as authors have a responsibility to make their writing diverse, everyone else in the equation has a responsibility not to make that process more difficult than it needs to be. This means that the audience needs to loudly champion diversity, call out authors when it becomes clear that they're being biased, and

support the authors who do it right

, both by heaping praise on them and by buying their books in the first place. Publishers need to recognise that the audience wants diversity, and that it's in the interest of their bottom line to provide it. At the end of the day, it's down to the authors to do the right thing, but if they're confident that doing so won't wreck their pocketbook and earn them scorchingly awful reviews, they're much more likely to actually

do it

As for the Mughal Empire and other real world cultures that just don't get mentioned in the public discourse,

both

nonfiction and fiction authors have a responsibility to redress the balance.

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Andy G

at 10:36 on 2009-06-18

most British singers of popular music automatically sing in (approximations of) American accents

This is something my mum commented on when she worked with primary school kids. I think it's a variation of the phenonmenon mentioned in the article you posted to in your LJ (was that THE Racefail post) where Indian kids would write stories using über-British names for the characters. I don't think any language is inherently any better for singing, any more than it's inherently any better for poetry or literature.

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Rami

at 11:01 on 2009-06-18

if they are actually biased

I'd say they almost invariably are -- pretty much everyone is, and part of that is thanks to, as you say, contributing factors like the fact that everyone in Britain will have been taught about Churchill but I don't think many will have been taught about

Netaji Subhash Bose

. Jamie's pointed out that even African writers are subject to such biases.

But I think that those kinds of biases are so ingrained and so systemic that we don't really know for sure how they're formed and we won't really have a shot at fixing them until we've been through a couple of decade-long iterations of attempts at change. Not that I think we shouldn't do so -- we absolutely should -- but I think to change the face of genre fiction it's more useful to focus more closely on authors and publishers.

Publishers need to recognise that the audience wants diversity

I think you're kind of arguing against yourself here because if we

recall an earlier discussion

about implicit bias, then actually there's a pretty good argument to say that Western audiences don't want diversity (

especially not in the North of England

), and that's why publishers aren't providing it.

Admittedly, that's an oversimplification and a rather shortsighted way of looking at the situation, but I think the point stands. It is something that can and should change and I think more audience support for publishers who get it will help that.

audience needs to loudly champion diversity ... support the authors who do it right

Yes, absolutely, and the audience needs a culture of constructive criticism so that authors who have tried and failed are lauded for their effort and encouraged to try again and do it better next time.

I think we've said all there is to say on this, though, and I suggest we call a halt to avoid impending Fail.

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Rami

at 11:02 on 2009-06-18On the other hand,

apparently there is a non-cultural reason

for accent shift when singing...

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Arthur B

at 11:18 on 2009-06-18

I think you're kind of arguing against yourself here because if we recall an earlier discussion about implicit bias, then actually there's a pretty good argument to say that Western audiences don't want diversity (especially not in the North of England), and that's why publishers aren't providing it.

I think the point I was making in the previous discussion isn't that Western audiences don't want diversity so much as that when diversity isn't present, they often fail to recognise it. Which is where the critics need to play their part.

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Andy G

at 11:59 on 2009-06-18

On the other hand, apparently there is a non-cultural reason for accent shift when singing...

I'd say that applies more to trained classical singers though, where the training deliberately eliminates individual differences. I'm amazed how well people with hopeless German are able to pronounce things entirely correctly when singing in choirs. But accents are much more clearly heard in other types of songs - pop songs (which is where people sound particularly American), folk songs, etc.

I guess a more local example would be the degree to which, say, Scottish/regional accents can be clearly distinguished in British pop music, as opposed to generic bland.

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Dan H

at 12:29 on 2009-06-18

people have an irritating tendency to turtle up when you accuse them of casual racism

This is true, but I think you're approaching the point from the wrong direction. You seem to be saying that this is the fault of the people making the accusations, not the people doing the turtling.

One of the big, important ideas to come out of Racefail was the idea that this is Not About You and Me.

Because we live in a white-dominated society, any discussion of racism will focus more on the effect of *accusations* of racism on white people than on the effect of racism on non-white people. Everybody agrees that we have to speak out against racism, but not if it means hurting the feelings of a white guy.

It's always more effective to save the rhetorical molotovs for when you can actually build a decent case against an author.

You're making a fundamental mistake about racism. Racism is not a problem caused by individual people being very racist, it is caused by large groups of people being slightly racist.

If I write one book, and it's about a white guy, and you write one book, and it's about a white guy, and Kyra writes one book, and it's about a white guy and Sonia and Viorica and Jamie and Shimmin and L. Robinson all write books, and they too are all about white guys none of us can *individually* be accused of bias, but the net result is eight books none of which have a non-white protagonist.

It's not about individual authors being accused of bias, it's about bias which *demonstrably exists* in a body of work created by *thousands* of individual authors, all of whom share responsibility for that bias.

Yes, and the best way for them to do that is to not put any black people in it. We've already established that you can't criticize white authors for choosing not to write about non-white people, so the best way to make race "not an issue" in a purely escapist piece of fiction is to conveniently ignore 10-25% of the population.

The history angle came up, after all, when Rami asked why UK authors are always wittering on about Elizabethan Shropshire and never show much interest in the Mutapa Kingdom or Mughal Empire

I don't want to speak for Rami in this, but I *think* the reason he brought up the Mutapa Kingdom and the Mughal Empire was as a way of highlighting the fact that you can *always* come up with ex post facto justifications for why a particular author just *happened* to choose in *this* particular situation to write about white people.

Historical fiction? I just don't know that much about non-European history, and it *happens* that Elizabethan Shropshire is what I'm really interested in writing about.

Fantasy? Well what draws me to fantasy is that it's connected to our *mythic heritage* and my cultural background is western, so naturally I'll draw on western imagery.

Science Fiction? I didn't want to present a society where racism no longer existed, but I didn't want to write about racism, so I had to make my protagonist white OR in the future there isn't any racism, so the fact that my protagonist is white doesn't matter OR this book is about its central SF idea, not about the colour of the main character's skin.

Literary Fiction? Well ultimately I needed to draw on my real life experience, and I didn't feel I could speak for black/South Asian/whatever culture.

Romance? It's vital that the reader be able to put herself in the position of the heroine, and making her non-white would make it difficult for the majority of the readership.

Crime? Well I couldn't write a gritty urban story with a black protagonist without making race an issue, and I didn't want race to be an issue.

Horror? See: Fantasy. Horror draws on mythical ideas, and the mythology I wanted to draw upon was western in origin.

And then of course there's the "I didn't want race to be an issue" argument and the "it would be tokenistic" argument and of course the "are you saying I'm a racist" argument.

The people who cast the SF channel Earthsea or the live action Avatar *really did* believe that they were practicing "colourblind" casting. They really believed that the white actors they cast in the key roles were "better" for those roles than the non-white actors they turned down.

Racism *is not* something you can conveniently put in a box and set on fire. Racism is perfectly nice people making perfectly reasonable decisions which somehow always come out in favour of guys like you and me instead of guys like Rami.

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Arthur B

at 13:10 on 2009-06-18

I agree that this is a problem, as is the fact that individual acts by a dozen different authors can amount to a collective bias, which is something I hadn't considered.

In fact, I agree with pretty much all your post.

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Rami

at 13:33 on 2009-06-18

the reason he brought up the Mutapa Kingdom and the Mughal Empire was as a way of highlighting the fact that you can *always* come up with ex post facto justifications

Just to add to this -- yes, that's pretty much where I was going with it.

I think it's also worth pointing out that I hadn't even known the Mutapa Kingdom existed before I looked it up: I'd just assumed there must have been some kind of major political grouping in that part of the world roughly contemporaneous with Elizabethan / Mughal times. The fact that it only took a couple of minutes of searching on the Internet to get a somewhat detailed and accessible article does indicate that if someone were interested, they could quite easily write fiction set in a historical / geographical context they didn't know very well. Sure, they'd probably get lots of it wrong, but we'd be happy they tried!

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Dan H

at 16:36 on 2009-06-18

think the point I was making in the previous discussion isn't that Western audiences don't want diversity so much as that when diversity isn't present, they often fail to recognise it

Actually I think it's stronger than that. I think Western audiences *genuinely* do not want diversity, and the problem is compounded by the fact that we *think* we do.

There is no way that "Haresh Patel and the Philosopher's Stone" would have been an international bestseller. I doubt House would be in its fifth season if the good doctor was played by Morgan Freeman.

I cannot put my hand on my heart and swear that I would have loved Buffy as much as I did if she had been played by a black woman.

If I see a book in which the main character is non-white, there is a part of my subconscious that immediately files it as "minority interest". I don't consciously try to avoid books with non-white protagonists, but if a book *does* happen to be about a black person, I immediately mentally file it as "a book about black people" when what I really want to read is "a book about wizards and swordfights". The fact that a book could be about wizards and swordfights while still having a black protagonist genuinely doesn't occur to me, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't occur to a lot of writers either.

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Arthur B

at 17:24 on 2009-06-18I think the general public

can

embrace stories with non-white protagonists, but you are correct to the extent that we

don't

do it nearly often enough. The two most popular examples I can think of in SF/fantasy are Red Dwarf and Earthsea. In Earthsea Ged isn't white, but his skin colour is absolutely irrelevant when it's the dragons and the evil stones and his own shadow that are the problem. In Red Dwarf, Rimmer is a smug cock who is convinced that he is socially superior to Lister, but their racial backgrounds never become an issue. Granted, Earthsea is a bit debatable, since lots of people (including the SciFi channel and some cover artists for some editions) don't notice that Ged isn't white, but Red Dwarf is in a visual medium and SF/fantasy audiences love it.

On the other hand, I think you do have a point in that it's less clear whether the audience would have embraced the Earthsea books or pre-apostasy Red Dwarf to the extent that they have if they weren't very very good indeed. It's an open question whether people would rank them alongside books/shows of a similar quality if they were merely "good" or "OK".

(Also, House would be brilliant with Morgan Freeman in the lead role. The only thing more devastating than having Hugh Laurie calling you an idiot is having the voice of God calling you an idiot.)

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Andy G

at 17:36 on 2009-06-18Would this be a good point to fling The Wire into the ring, as I know various people here have been watching it recently ... that's interesting here because it was written by white middle-class men but has been praised for its portrayal of a largely black cast, and it's also been claimed that its low ratings were due to audiences being put off by the number of black characters.

(On the other hand, of course, it very much IS about race, and is not a genre show.)

It's something that slightly undermines my intuition that white writers in a racist society are less likely to be able to represent non-white characters well - either they'll underrepresent them or miswrite them cringeworthily if they do attempt "fair" representation. I don't know whether this latter option is a painful necessary stage that comes before good writing about non-white people by white authors (someone made a similar point here about the 60s portrayal of Uhura), or whether that's always going to be the exception unless society as a whole changes?

It just seems to me to be a bit of a Rubrik cube situation - it isn't really a question of cosmetically changing one individual element, lots of elements have to change together: a society in which non-white authors are better represented across different genres would also be a society in which white authors could write non-white characters better.

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Rami

at 17:45 on 2009-06-18

I think Western audiences *genuinely* do not want diversity

As I said above, I think it's possible and even probable that white Westerners don't actually want diversity. In which case forcing it upon you is initially going to be something of a lost cause because no one will write or publish books that won't sell. How many people in the ethnic majority are going to be self-aware enough, or give enough of a damn, to ignore that bit of their subconscious that doesn't really want to read a book about people who aren't like them?

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Niall

at 17:49 on 2009-06-18

I think the general public can embrace stories with non-white protagonists, but you are correct to the extent that we don't do it nearly often enough.

Yes. My examples were going to be

Slumdog Millionaire

and

Deep Space Nine

, the former of which almost certainly benefits from a perception of being something exceptional, the latter of which benefits from having a pre-established and loyal audience.

Within sf, it's been bothering me that the Arthur C Clarke Award is on its longest-ever streak of male winners. (1987 to 2002: 8 male and 8 female winners. 2003 to present: all men.) There's never been much racial diversity among shortlisted and winning authors, and that hasn't changed. But intriguingly, the gender diversity of the

protagonists

of the winning books hasn't decreased, and if anything the racial diversity of the protagonists has increased; the protagonists of the last four winners are an Indian-Irish woman (

Song of Time

), a black British man (er, Black Man), a white man (

Nova Swing

) and a central Asian woman (

Air

). And all of them seem to have been broadly popular decisions; the last unpopular one, I would say, was when

Iron Council

won, beating ...

River of Gods

. I'm not quite sure what if any conclusions to draw from this, but I'll be interested to see if it's a pattern that continues.

And you didn't ask, but for a book about wizards and swordfights with a multiracial cast I'd be interested to know what people here made/make of

Acacia

by David Anthony Durham.

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Arthur B

at 18:30 on 2009-06-18

I think it's a difficult point to debate unless you look at the publishing situation in other countries. How well are minorities depicted in fiction published in, say, Japan, or South Africa, or Brazil, or India? I suspect that ethnic majorities

in general

, wherever you happen to be, tend to reinforce a publishing culture that is biased towards them because they like to read about people that resemble themselves. Are white Westerners

especially

stunted in our ability to identify with people not of our ethnic background, or are we just one example of a shitty global trend? And if there are places where people have just about managed to get it right, what can we learn from them?

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Shim

at 19:42 on 2009-06-18I think the majority-default thing is even broader than that. For example, if you read a story and the characters' backgrounds are not explicitly stated, what accent do you imagine them having? Unless there's a definite pointer elsewhere, I imagine them speaking Southern Standard English. I don't even speak SSE myself, but that's still what I default to. I don't think I've ever randomly assigned people as Brummie, or South African, or Canadian (yes, I'm sure those countries have more than one accent, but I wouldn't recognise them). Or do you imagine people as wearing glasses if it's not mentioned? Almost everyone I know or see wears glasses, including me, but again, I wouldn't imagine characters as speccy without prompting.

(Of course, there is a weird thing where it's actually fairly difficult to convey a non-Standard accent in written English, which presumably doesn't help authors.)

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Robinson L

at 20:00 on 2009-06-18

Currently, non-white people are underrepresented in popular fiction. Everybody agrees that something should be done about this, but everybody believes that it is up to somebody else to do about it, because every author believes that *they* are writing about white people because the story demands it. I agree that this is a problem, as is the fact that individual acts by a dozen different authors can amount to a collective bias, which is something I hadn't considered. In fact, I agree with pretty much all your post.

Seconded. Excellent comment, Dan.

I've been meaning to make a comment about this for months now, but have never found the right opportunity. Thanks for obliging.

A couple months ago, my philosophy professor told the class about James Avery, best known as Will Smith's uncle on

The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air

. According to my professor (and this isn't even mentioned on his Wikipedia page), Mr. Avery is a great Shakespearian actor, has performed Shakespeare in the park with the likes of Patrick Stewart, and would like nothing better than to continue doing Shakespeare.

... Only problem is, at 60 he's too old to play Othello, and there aren't any other roles in Shakespeare specifically for a black man.

Then we look at

Earthsea

and

Avatar

on the one hand, and on the other

Star Trek

and a ton of superhero movies and other re-boots. In all cases, the "best actors for the job" always just so happened to be white, regardless of the original character's skin colour.

Why, it's almost as if there were some sort of "selective colour blindness" going on ...

That said, I really don't think the problem is with

resistance

to women or people of colour or other marginalised groups (except maybe queer people) on the part of the white Western majority.

Niall has some good examples, and certainly Eddie Murphy, Will Smith, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman (totally agree with you about Morgan Freeman as

House

, Arthur) and even Whoopi Goldberg prove that black main characters can draw in the white Western mainstream. Sure, they're all usually Westernized (see "Cultural Demonisation") usually the only person of colour of any standing within the movie (see "Token Minorities and Racism Without Race," even Ben Sisko was often a victim of this). But I would think that after getting mainstream whites to accept a person of colour as the main character, rectifying the racial-minority-who-has-"transcended"-race and tokenism problems should be relatively easy.

I'm not saying that the white mainstream would not be

totally

resistant to stories about magic or romance or in depth character studies or mysteries or political thrillers or whatever that happen to star people of colour--just that I don't think they'd be as resistant as some of you have suggested. And I think if the white mainstream does prefer white protagonists to people of colour, that may at least partially be because the entertainment industry has fostered that expectation in them.

It's like my argument in the

Boobs With Superpowers

discussion, back before it developed into a deconstruction of gender in

Lord of the Rings

. I questioned whether fantasy games and movies include ubiquitous amounts of fanservice because that's what their young, heterosexual male customers feel entitled to, or whether those young, heterosexual males expect ubiquitous fanservice because movies and games have been pushing it on them for decades. (I dunno the html to link specific comments, but it was my first comment to that article.)

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Dan H

at 23:38 on 2009-06-18

As I said above, I think it's possible and even probable that white Westerners don't actually want diversity.

Or at the very least, we can comfortably live without it. And sorry for using "westerners" to mean "white westerners". Fail.

How many people in the ethnic majority are going to be self-aware enough, or give enough of a damn, to ignore that bit of their subconscious that doesn't really want to read a book about people who aren't like them?

That being the big problem, and the reason that for all my self-righteous internet posturing the ball is really kind of in my court. The tragic thing is that I'll probably just retreat into my comfort zone and stick with my lighthearted, escapist books that pretend that non-white people don't exist.

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Viorica

at 00:02 on 2009-06-19

They might very well have- at first. But the fact that people raised an outcry and their reponse was to a.) Cast all the villains as non-white, and keep the white heroes, and b.) Loudly proclaim that wthey wouldn't listen to any more complaints pushes it into the "deliberate racism" category for me. Especially when I look at someone like JJ Abrams, who worried over casting John Cho as Sulu because Cho is Chinese and Sulu's Japanese. If a successful Hollywood director is capable of concerning himself with these issues, the Sci-fi Channel casting people should certainl be able to.

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Dan H

at 08:58 on 2009-06-19

But the fact that people raised an outcry and their reponse was to a.) Cast all the villains as non-white, and keep the white heroes, and b.) Loudly proclaim that wthey wouldn't listen to any more complaints pushes it into the "deliberate racism" category for me.

It's certainly unacceptable, but I think it's important to recognise that it isn't *deliberate*.

If somebody doesn't think they're being racist, and somebody turns around and says "hey, you're being racist" the natural response is to say "no I'm not, you are". Again, it comes down to the Big Important Thing About Racefail, which is that guys like me (and the guys who cast Avatar) need to realise that race issues aren't about letting us feel good about how totally non-racist we are, they're about not treating other people as second-class citizens.

Again, not defending them or saying they're anything other than casually racist douchebags, but I think it's important to recognise that they themselves would be *mortified* at the suggestion that they're being racist (I mean, some of their best *friends* are probably ... yeah you get the idea).

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Arthur B

at 09:51 on 2009-06-19I think Dan is correct that the

Last Airbender

casting people probably didn't think they were being racist, and were probably very surprised when they were accused of being so, because M. Night Shyamalan is writing, producing, and directing the project. "We can't be being racist," the casting people think to themselves; "a non-white person is in charge of the whole process, after all, and he wouldn't sign off on a racist decision, would he?"

Sadly, it kind of looks like he

has

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Robinson L

at 22:30 on 2009-06-22

As I said above, I think it's possible and even probable that white Westerners don't actually want diversity. Or at the very least, we can comfortably live without it.

Now

that

, I'll agree with. I don't think most whites are so racist that they'll avoid anything that features prominent characters of colour, but they probably are racist enough not to feel deprived if they never see any.

Cast all the villains as non-white, and keep the white heroes

Not in

Earthsea

; in that they kept everybody but the Magical Negro and the blink-and-you-miss-him torturer white.

Exactly, Arthur. It's not only white people who can do things which are racist against people of colour, any more than it's only men who can do something which is sexist against women.

Having just recently caught

Iron Man

on DVD, I suppose I should point out, sort of in counterpoint to what I said in my last comment, that they have cast Samuel L. Jackson as canonically white Nick Fury in the Marvel superheros series.

However, this may not be so revolutionary, as the Ultimate Marvel version of Nick Fury was actually modeled on Samuel L. Jackson. So there is a sort of textual precedent. (Does it strike anyone else that books and comic books seem to have an easier time being progressive when it comes to race/sex/sexual orientation etc.?)

Another possible mitigating factor: He's freaking Samuel L. Jackson. As far as I can tell, none of the white actors replacing canon persons of colour in

Earthsea

Avatar

are anywhere near as prestigious.

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Arthur B

at 22:38 on 2009-06-22

It's my understanding that the actually approached him when they were brainstorming the Ultimate Marvel version of Nick Fury and asked if they could use his likeness, and he gave the thumbs up on the condition that he gets to play Nick Fury in the movies.

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http://francoisdillinger.blogspot.com/

at 17:44 on 2009-06-23

It's certainly unacceptable, but I think it's important to recognise that it isn't *deliberate*.

The racism was accidental. Probably. The studio/producer/director became aware of the fail during preproduction shortly after announcing the culturally appropiated cast. When they chose to do nothing to correct the racism, it became deliberate.

"We can't be being racist," the casting people think to themselves; "a non-white person is in charge of the whole process, after all, and he wouldn't sign off on a racist decision, would he?" Sadly, it kind of looks like he has.

Looking at how M Night Shyamalan's movies portray race, it's hard to ignore the deafening, thunderous fail. And I'm including 'Lady in the Water'. MNS, who grew-up in the states, is the sad, ironic product of Hollywood's institutionalized racism and has internalized it. So much so that his cameos are always tremendous douche bags.

It took me a while to figure that out. I've been a fan of all his movies except for 'Lady in the Water' and was excited to hear he was attached to 'Avatar: the Last Airbender' movie. I thought, "YES, it's not Chris Columbus!"

Wah. Wah. Waahhh. Oh well. I still plan to loudly call out "racefail bullshit" (or something like that) when the trailer ends prior to the crap Bay movie that I'm getting gifted to see.

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http://francoisdillinger.blogspot.com/

at 17:52 on 2009-06-23

Cast all the villains as non-white, and keep the white heroes Not in Earthsea; in that they kept everybody but the Magical Negro and the blink-and-you-miss-him torturer white. Exactly, Arthur. It's not only white people who can do things which are racist against people of colour, any more than it's only men who can do something which is sexist against women.

What do you mean by the statements regarding who commits the racism and sexism?

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 04:38 on 2009-06-24Dan, you said that the solution to the lack of people of color in popular fic (sf and fantasy, in particular) was to get white people to write it. I beg to differ. It's not that I really disagree - obviously, the default human shouldn't be a white man, if only because we European types are the minority on Earth as a whole. So, if you're going to write something half-way realistic about, for example, Earth in the future, you need to have a variety of "speaking parts" for people of color. And that's certainly a writer's responsibility. I do agree with you there. But I'm a librarian as well as a writer, and it does seem to me that today's consumers of pop culture are not very adventurous. They often want more of whatever they are used to - and I'd say the current "Trek" movie is a case in point. I have a lot to say about that, and *not* because it's a good or fair homage to the values of classic Trek. But that's another essay. The point is that we somehow have to get people to *read* - and watch, and become fans of - works starring people of color. If there is a market, writers will work to fill it, and, unfortunately, the market for a certain type of SF is deeply conservative. I think that has to change.

The other thing is that we should actually notice and celebrate when writers do something fine in this regard. Ursula LeGuin is still the gold standard, as far as I'm concerned, but how many non-American adults have even heard of "House of the Scorpion" by Nancy Farmer? Three of the most sympathetic characters, including the protagonist, are Mexicans. And it's just a very, very smart book. Stories like this should be read and applauded; that they are "kid's books", and American, shouldn't keep non-American adults from reading them.

Another case in point - why was DS9 generally the least popular of the Treks? (I personally think it was the best.) And why didn't people make more of that excellent episode, "Far Beyond the Stars"?

I guess what I'm saying is that Harry's whiteness did indeed contribute to his popularity, and, as a white woman, I find that a shame. How do we get readers to be more adventurous? How do we get kids to accept Hari Patel, rather than Harry Potter, as a protagonist?

But things are getting better. Slowly, but I really do think they are getting better. More books with a greater variety of protagonists are being published, and read.

My pov as a writer - racefail just scared me. Because I am actually in the midst of writing sf about three kids of color, and I am trying hard not to even think about all the ways I could get it wrong. I have to get it written first. Then we'll see if anyone wants to read it.

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Viorica

at 04:55 on 2009-06-24

how many non-American adults have even heard of "House of the Scorpion" by Nancy Farmer?

*raises hand* Haven't read it, but it was in a lot of book order catalogues when I was younger.

The whole no-CoCs/no market for CoCs thing is a bit of a catch-22. Publishers assume that there's no market for nonwhite characters because none have been successful, because none have been published, because publishers assume that they won't make any money . . . and aound, and around, and around it goes. And another problem is that so few books are *well-written*, it's especially hard to find a book about nonwhite characters. For instance, I recently tried reading Kate Forsyth's

The Gypsy Crown

just for the opportunity to read about the Rom experiences in Cromwell's England- but the writing was so poor, I ended up putting it down.

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Shim

at 06:47 on 2009-06-24I was saying just last night, this discussion has motivated me to start looking for books with more diverse protagonists, but my brief lunchtime rifflings in the library suggest it's quite genre-dependent. So there seems to be a good few books in General Fiction with nonwhite protagonists, but I don't like most general fiction, which is a bit of a limiting factor. Sci-fi and fantasy, not so many (maybe because of the heavy European/PanCeltic tendency of fantasy?) so I don't read about them much.

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Dan H

at 12:47 on 2009-06-24

Dan, you said that the solution to the lack of people of color in popular fic (sf and fantasy, in particular) was to get white people to write it

Sorry, that was an overgeneralization in response to the suggestion that the solution to underrepresentation of non-whites in popular genre fiction was for non-white people to write it.

You're absolutely write, of course, that what gets written (and, more importantly, published) is a direct result of what there is a market for, but the key point is that we can't view the representation of race in fiction as something that white people (both writers and their audiences) don't have to think about.

I'm not a writer, but the reason that Racefail scared the hell out of me because it made me realize how easy it was to turn around and say "well yes I understand all that, but it's not a problem with *me*".

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Arthur B

at 14:22 on 2009-06-24

I think the point I was trying to make earlier is that, whilst white people (and, globally, majority communities everywhere) do have a responsibility to not pass the buck and do their bit to make the situation better, at the same time they shouldn't fool themselves into thinking that racism can be eliminated simply by the action of a bunch of white people. The idea that white writers can unilaterally solve the representation problem a) implies that there's no need to encourage audiences and publishers to pay attention to published non-white authors, and b) lets publishers off the hook when they pass over books by non-white authors for spurious reasons.

To put it another way: if we had a situation 5 years down the line where the protagonists in popular fiction are absolutely, wonderfully, sparklingly diverse, but at the same time a disproportionate number of popular fiction authors are still white, we've

still got a problem

. It would be a great place to get to, but it still wouldn't be sufficient, and if we declare the problem "solved" at that point the old bias would just end up creeping back in. Racism is like mildew; if you leave it festering anywhere, sooner or later it ends up spreading.

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Robinson L

at 22:30 on 2009-06-24Huh. I know Samuel L. Jackson gave his blessing to having Ultimate Nick Fury modeled after him, but I didn't know he'd stipulated that he had to play Nick Fury in the movies. Good for him.

What do you mean by the statements regarding who commits the racism and sexism?

Sorry, I was skipping to a slightly different topic when I said that. I was replying to Arthur's comment that yes,

The Last Airbender can

still be racist even though a person of colour (Shyamalan) is in charge of the project.

it does seem to me that today's consumers of pop culture are not very adventurous. They often want more of whatever they are used to - and I'd say the current "Trek" movie is a case in point. I have a lot to say about that, and *not* because it's a good or fair homage to the values of classic Trek. But that's another essay.

I'd like to read it. It sounds like you have many of the same complaints

I do about the movie

. (/shameless plug)

The other thing is that we should actually notice and celebrate when writers do something fine in this regard.

Oh, I agree, although as a white person, I'm probably less well equipped to point out those instances where writers get these things write than when they clearly get them wrong.

Don't think I've ever heard of "House of Scorpion" or Nancy Farmer, but I'll be sure to check them out.

Best of luck. I'm in a similar boat. (Would be pretty much the same, except I haven't yet started on the projects I have in mind.) Still, the way I look at is that it's better to try and fail, or try and succeed for the short term while looking horribly backward in the long term (think the original

Trek

) than not try at all.

I suspect that once again, Arthur and Dan are coming at the same problem from different directions, and they're both right but not addressing the whole issue, and both trying to clarify their own points in relation to the others'.

Yes, we need both more white writers writing people of colour, and we need more writers of colour getting published as well. (And we need them writing multiracial casts, also. As with Arthur's point, more writers of colour getting published would be good, but if the story's casts are still overwhelmingly white, problem not solved.

Oh, and this line:

Racism is like mildew; if you leave it festering anywhere, sooner or later it ends up spreading.

Love it.

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 03:59 on 2009-06-25I think you're right about Arthur and Dan coming at the same problem from different directions. And you should definitely read Nancy Farmer - she is perhaps most famous for "The Ear, the Eye and the Arm", an SF novel set in 22d century Zimbabwe. It's terrific. I have to admit I was uncomfortable at how the English tribe was shown in it - a bit stereotyped, perhaps? - but I wasn't very uncomfortable. For the rest, it has an intelligent and sympathetic young protagonist (Shona tribe), three terrific detectives, and a very energetic plot that has some resonance. Farmer's just a good writer. She's not the stylist Le Guin is, and is not as subtle, but she's still very good.

As for my novel - I am making up the culture, so I don't really see how I could offend anyone, but you never know. The best you can do is to try to write believable and complex human beings (or people, as the case may be.) You can find the first few pages on my blog.

And I'm thinking I need to get to that Star Trek review! I wrote an initial one - that's again on my blog - and I did enjoy it while I was watching it. But the more I think about it, the more I dislike it, and I think it fails, pretty seriously, on a couple of levels even while succeeding on a couple more. Going off to write said review now-

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Rami

at 10:29 on 2009-06-25

Nancy Farmer - she is perhaps most famous for "The Ear, the Eye and the Arm"

I knew I'd seen that name somewhere before! If that's the kind of standard that House of the Scorpion lives up to then I'll definitely have to read it! It is, as you say, simply terrific.

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Robinson L

at 22:00 on 2009-06-25

The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm

? I remember that book. Don't remember thinking terribly well of it at the time, but it's been a while. I suppose I shall take another listen at it.

I am making up the culture, so I don't really see how I could offend anyone

Well, yes, but we don't make up cultures out of thin air. Not in my experience. We look to the world around us for inspiration. So it's still possible, but from what I know of you, I have faith that you're taking due precautions.

I think I would like a look at that. And your movie review. When you say "blog" do you mean as opposed to "livejournal"? Because if they're there, I didn't see them. (Admittedly, I haven't been through all 177 entries.) Please link?

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 01:23 on 2009-06-27Um - well. Yes, I do mean my livejournal. (I have another work-related blog, and sometimes cross-post between them, but this is where I generally journal online.) I am still working on my second thoughts about "Star Trek", and it'll take me awhile to finish. My first thoughts are right there on the first page! For the rest, you can find the first two chapters of the novel easily enough by clicking on the link "original fiction", but the first chapter (which was initially a prologue) is here:

http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/15814.html#cutid1

However - you don't like Nancy Farmer. (I agree with Rami; I think she's terrific.) You aren't impressed, it seems, by a lot of what I like, so I should think you might well be critical. What do you think of Michelle Paver and Megan Whalen Turner?

In any case, I am not looking for heavy-duty criticism right now. I am just plugging onward, trying to finish this. It is already far longer than anything I've ever written in my life. And I'm not making a big issue of race at all. It's just - the kids are brown. Why shouldn't they be?

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Robinson L

at 15:01 on 2009-06-29Thanks for the clarification and the pointer Mary J, I'll be sure to check them out.

Re: Nancy Farmer. Oh, I wouldn't say I

dis

liked her, only that I don't remember finding her particularly engaging. But that was only one book (which can't really establish a pattern) and it must have been around a decade ago. I've been reevaluating a lot of the stuff I read back then, so why not Farmer?

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I've never encountered either Paver or Whalen Turner but their on my (extremely long) reading list now.

I am just plugging onward, trying to finish this.

Yes, in my limited experience, it's best just to churn through and then go back and re-edit so as to make it coherent, and you don't want to get sidetracked along the way.

And I'm not making a big issue of race at all. It's just - the kids are brown. Why shouldn't they be?

Yes, so far that's been my attitude towards my protagonists of colour.

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 05:05 on 2009-07-08Just wanted to let you know I've got the review up. It doesn't quite say everything I wanted to as clearly as I'd like - I don't think - but it gets at some of my problems. I'd be interested to know what you think.

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Robinson L

at 15:30 on 2009-08-03Nancy Farmer update.

So, a couple days ago, I finished listening to

The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm

. It was about as good as I remembered.

I would compare it to the works of Lloyd Alexander or Neil Gaiman in that it tells a pretty good story but I never really got swept up in it. The characters just sort of sit there without ever really engaging the reader. Not this reader, anyway.

With Alexander and Gaiman the effect appears to be chronic. I hope the same doesn't hold true for Farmer.

Next up: Megan Whalen Turner's

The Thief

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 04:11 on 2009-08-04Wow! We do have very different taste, I guess. I liked Tendai and Rita quite a bit, and the three detectives tickled me. I do see what you mean about Lloyd Alexander - he draws his characters in broad strokes - but I liked Taran and Eilonwy, probably because I came across them as a kid. An adult, reading these books for the first time, would probably find the characters cliched.

I hope you enjoy "The Thief", anyway. And you really should give "House of the Scorpion" a try, if only for the plot and the scientific and moral issues involved. Chances are the characters won't grab you, though they did me - (

In any case, I'll be interested to hear what you think.

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Robinson L

at 15:00 on 2009-08-15Second update. Finished listening to "The Thief" a couple days ago and - Warning: spoilers to follow.

... So, the first 80% of the book was pretty dull. I liked how the relationship between Gen and the Magus developed, but there wasn't much more to hold my interest.

It got better after the surprise twists, because it's nice to be able to look back at a story and say "oh, so

that's

what was going on" especially if you never suspected things were anything less that completely straightforward at the time. I do think she went overboard with the surprise revelation bit when she made their young companion the King's heir, though.

So good ending, but dull build-up.

"House of the Scorpion" is going to be a bit trickier, as my library system won't allow holds on the only audiocassette version they own. I can get it on playaway or the original format, but either way it will take me a considerably longer time to get to it.

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Arthur B

at 15:56 on 2009-08-15Could this be a consequence of the audiobook format, though? I can see all sorts of ways in which hints that all is not as it seems might be more easy to pick up in the printed word than in spoken audio.

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Robinson L

at 20:00 on 2009-08-18

I can see all sorts of ways in which hints that all is not as it seems might be more easy to pick up in the printed word than in spoken audio.

That's always a possibility. I suppose if I wanted to be scientific about it I'd find some way to gauge my ability to predict plot twists on audiobooks as opposed to hardcopy. Not that I'll probably ever bother ...

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Jamie Johnston

at 21:19 on 2009-08-18You'd need a scale for measuring predictability. What would the standard unit be, I wonder?

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Arthur B

at 21:23 on 2009-08-18I nominate the "Brooks".

For calibration purposes,

The Sword of Shannara

rates at 1 TeraBrooks.

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Robinson L

at 22:00 on 2009-08-19

For calibration purposes,

The Sword of Shannara

rates at 1 TeraBrooks.

Yes, but is that hardcopy or audiobook?

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http://orionsnebula.blogspot.com/

at 05:37 on 2009-12-26Robinson,

I'm game to give your challenge a try, but struggling with how to begin. What do you mean by "design a cast"? Do you just mean, think up 6 people who could exist in the same genre? To me, a "cast" implies some thought to their interrelationships.

I thought about appropriating characters from one of my story ideas, de-gendering them (several have indeterminate gender atm anyway) and using them, but it's *really hard* to actually write a plot that doesn't depend on race or gender at any point.

I'd love if you could elaborate on how to approach this--this kind of thing has been much on my mind of late. I'm outlying a story with two protagonists, and no matter what combination of genders I try it seems to have unfortunate implications.

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Robinson L

at 15:02 on 2009-12-26Orion, do you mean this one?

design a cast of six characters, but don't come up with any demographic-specific details about them - just come up with a list of personality traits for each of them. Then randomly assign genders, races, cultural backgrounds and sexual orientations to each of them. If you think some of the personality traits you've assigned to a character are inappropriate for the demographic traits you've randomly assigned to them, you might want to look at why you think that.

... Because that was Arthur's challenge, not mine, but let me see if I can help anyway. I think it's probably best to start fresh, not with an existing story/story idea (it's only a thought experiment after all, you don't have to write the story which comes out of it).

As for the cast ... well, you could do that, including interrelationships, and see where it goes. You could decide two people fall in love, and then if it turns out later that they're the same sex and twenty years apart in age, so what?

However, I could see how thinking about those relationships could bias you towards certain demographic positions before you've completed the exercise, which could be troublesome. In that case, I don't see why you couldn't define the "cast" purely by their role within the story, and let the interrelationships come in later. If you find you're having too much trouble coming up with six distinct roles for six indistinct characters you could always go with the standard

Five Person Band

cast (complete with

Sixth Ranger

, of course). See how that works.

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Arthur B

at 20:54 on 2009-12-26For what it's worth, the point of the exercise wasn't to come up with a workable cast of characters for a story so much as it is to challenge the preconceptions of the person doing it. Interrelationships weren't something I was thinking of when I was talking about assigning personality traits, especially since personality traits would often end up

defining

those interrelationships in the first place. I was thinking more along the lines of things like "passive", "forceful", "roguish", "puritanical", stuff like that.

It's basically a bit of navel-gazing designed to prompt people to challenge their preconceptions - if you're surprised that character X, who has personality trait Y, happens to be gay/straight/black/white/whatever, then it's worth thinking about

why

that happens to be surprising to you.

For what it's worth, it's probably easier just to take the Five Person Band cast and then randomly assign race/gender/sexuality/culture to them, and see where that takes you. But again, it's not a tool for writing stories, it's a thing to do to help you discover your preconceptions. There's no a priori reason why anyone from any background couldn't fill any of the roles in the Five Person Band.

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Melissa G.

at 21:06 on 2009-12-26Actually something like this happened to me recently. I just embarked on a new writing project, and I was thinking up my large cast of characters starting with personality traits and such rather than names so as I started naming them, I realized that in my head they were all white. Which led me to go "Eep!", and then I started randomly assigning race and religion and such to try and diversify. And if not for all the articles I've read recently on sites like Ferretbrain, I probably wouldn't have caught that, and I would have been writing another story about a bunch of pretty white kids. Yipes. It was pretty shocking to me, but I'm glad I was able to realize it and stop myself. Making your characters whatever you are seems to be somewhat instinctual unless you're making a statement about race or religion, and I'm glad I was able to learn that. And now I'm working to diversify my characters more without defining them by their race/religion/etc.

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Frank

at 22:09 on 2009-12-26

I'm working to diversify my characters more without defining them by their race/religion/etc.

But a diversified cast of people/characters are defined by the experiences they have because of their race/religion/culture whether it's the ignorance one has due to their privilege or the victimization one receives because of their skin. If that character background is left out, it would seem the story is more token than diverse. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Look at Dean Thomas and Cho Chang (though not Albus Dumbledore as his sexuality, while suggested to the more astute reader, is not canon.) :)

There's also nothing wrong with an all white cast of characters; read The Lord of the Rings.

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Melissa G.

at 22:34 on 2009-12-26

If that character background is left out, it would seem the story is more token than diverse.

Oh, of course the characters will have a sense of identity related to their race/religion/etc, but it's not the ONLY thing that identifies them. That's what I meant by that. And, yes, there isn't necessarily anything wrong with a cast of all white characters at times, but in a story set in a modern day suburban high school, it seems somewhat irresponsible not to try and include some diversity.

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http://baihehua.livejournal.com/

at 23:14 on 2009-12-26

But a diversified cast of people/characters are defined by the experiences they have because of their race/religion/culture

I actually have a small problem with this, which mostly has to do with the level of specificity. I can completely agree that race, religion, etc. are defining attributes for characters in stories

set on Earth in our space-time in the past, present, or not-too-distant future

. When stories are set in other worlds, however, the importance of things like skin color and religion can vary from extremely important to not important at all.

I'm not at all trying to suggest that it is okay for fantasy books (being the most likely to be set in other worlds) to have all-white casts. Human beings come in a whole range of skin colors and skin color is very important to us (whether or not it should be is a whole separate argument). Therefore, human characters in stories should reflect the diversity of human beings on Earth. Readers (all of whom are human beings, to my knowledge) need to be able to connect to the fictional characters they read about, so if those characters are human, they should represent the whole spectrum of humanity. None of which means that skin color (or other attributes) has to be important

for the character

, but it needs to be included for the readers' sakes.

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Frank

at 04:28 on 2009-12-27

I actually have a small problem with this, which mostly has to do with the level of specificity. I can completely agree that race, religion, etc. are defining attributes for characters in stories set on Earth in our space-time in the past, present, or not-too-distant future. When stories are set in other worlds, however, the importance of things like skin color and religion can vary from extremely important to not important at all.

I agree.

But the title of the essay is Race in Popular Culture, and Melissa (whom I was responding to) was responding to the Arthur who had presented an exercise to challenge the preconceptions of Fb readers, hence the specificity. :)

However, since you brought it up, I wonder how easy/hard it is for fantasy and sci/fi writers to neglect or ignore race/religion/culture in their humanoid characters. I can see that it would be easier for those issues to be absent from a writer's horned-horse or alien-bug character.

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http://baihehua.livejournal.com/

at 05:24 on 2009-12-27I understand where your assumptions of context were coming from; what bugged me was that the statement by itself did not address those contextual assumptions. :-)

I'm sure neglecting to mention race or ethnicity in fantasy/sci fi varies in difficulty depending on the story(and that it's easier to bypass when your characters are alien bugs or even cats). That said, I can't think of any interesting fantasy or sci fi books in which no mention is made of any of the humanoids' races/ethnic backgrounds. We tend to like characters better when we have some idea what they look like, and that often gives away their racial/ethnic heritages.

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http://orionsnebula.blogspot.com/

at 19:20 on 2009-12-28Since we're now in story-time, I hope no one will mind if I post my current dilemma. Maybe stating it aloud will help things.

So I have two characters, A and B. A is insightful, compassionate, and quick-witted, but also timid and fastidious. All in all, traditionally feminine. B is fearless, driven, and powerful, but also bitter and rash. Overall, traditionally masculine.

The plot is this: A is cajoled/coerced into embarking on a quest for a magic McGuffin with which s/he's supposed to cure a plague and then conquer the continent. B is A's mentor/bodyguard, and resents the power A is coming into. At the last minute, A rejects the quest and runs away to settle down on a farm. B takes up the quest and retrives the item.

This is supposed to be a "happy ending" in that A is where A is happy, and the quest succeeds anyway. A possible sequel would have B make a mess of things with B's newfound power, requiring A to intervene with tact and wisdom to help put things right.

No matter what genders I assign, there are pitfalls.

Male/Male: No major female character.

Female/Male: The story is about a stereotypical man and woman, and the happy ending becomes a woman retiring from adventuring to let the men do men's work.

Male/Female: This one works up until the sequel, when the bitter, power-hungry woman needs help from a man to straighten things out.

Female/Female: Besides being harder for me to write, this one compares a feminine hero favorably with an unfeminine one.

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but I'm going round in circles on this one.

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Arthur B

at 19:23 on 2009-12-28Sounds like part of the issue is only having two characters of any importance. Who's doing the coercing in the first place?

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Arthur B

at 19:32 on 2009-12-28Double-posting, because I spotted another issue: you haven't decided firmly whether to have a sequel or not.

Please don't do that. We don't need yet another Robert Jordan on the market. Either decide that you definitely intend to write a sequel, and plan accordingly, or just plan to write a self-contained story, and if there happens to be room for a sequel at the end that's a happy bonus (or a sloppy job of providing closure, but let's be optimistic). If you really like the idea you have for the followup story, why wait for the followup when you could tell both stories at once?

Part of the problems you outline with the gender pairings come down to this. The Female/Male scenario is only problematic if the action you describe in the sequel does not occur. The Male/Female scenario is only problematic if a sequel happens.

More thoughts:

- Why does it have to be A that pulls B fat out of the fire in the first place, rather than some other tactful, wise character? A's happy ending, as you present it was being able to abdicate their destiny and find their own way in life. To force them to go back and clean up the mess in the sequel undermines that horribly.

- The way the plots seem to be structured, "bitter and rash" seems to be a fatal character flaw - it makes B screw up the quest - but "timid and fastidious" doesn't seem to be so bad. Is this intentional?

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http://orionsnebula.blogspot.com/

at 20:17 on 2009-12-28Arthur: I'd be happy to send you a more detailed outline which discussed the other characters. There's a royal heir involved who is the financial political sponsor of the operation, and a scout/guide type kid who's there so A has another kid to be a foil. (A is ~15, B is 20 ). But I don't want to clutter the comment thread with a lengthy synopsis, in case Robinson is still using it. B's superiors assigned B to the mission at the heir's request.

Then there's the antagonist, a rival magician, and a couple of political figures with brief appearances.

Re: Timid and fastidious. I should maybe have written "cowardly," but that seemed to judgmental. Maybe "fearful and conflict-averse" would be better. It's part of why A needs B's help in the first place, since A can't/won't do A's own fighting, and it's why A abandons the quest, so in that sense it's equally disabling.

But yes, I do like A better which is part of what makes assigning genders difficult.

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Arthur B

at 20:45 on 2009-12-28Hmm. There's not much more I can add without this turning into some sort of plot clinic, and I'm certainly not qualified to handle such a thing. But for what it's worth, since you don't have much sympathy with B, maybe a solution could be to de-emphasise B and promote someone else to co-protagonist status? If B's going to end up the antagonist anyway it makes sense to set things up so that A doesn't have to be all on their lonesome, and if you have a scout thrown into the mix to be a peer to A then it seems to make much more sense to try to treat A and the scout on equal terms than it does to give A and B equal consideration.

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Melissa G.

at 22:27 on 2009-12-28Also, don't know if this helps, but as long as the characters are 3-dimensional and well-developed, it's okay for them to have "traditional gender traits" in my opinion. For example, just because the character is both a girl and is non-confrontation/doesn't like to fight doesn't mean she has to be a bad representation of women. It just means she's a woman who doesn't like confrontation and fighting. And that's perfectly fine; women like that exist. As long as she has admirable traits and we like her, that part of her isn't likely to bother anyone. At least, that's my opinion.

So, I guess, go with your gut as for their genders, and just make sure they're well-rounded and developed strongly. I've found characters that should be total Mary Sues, but the way they are represented in the text makes me able to accept them (whether it's because the text acknowledges their flaws or because it shows her to be wrong at times, etc).

So...yeah, don't know if that helps, but that's just another aspiring writer's opinion.

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Shim

at 00:31 on 2009-12-29(Not really in a position to give advice, but hey)

The first thing that springs to my mind is actually this paragraph.

A is insightful, compassionate, and quick-witted, but also timid and fastidious. All in all, traditionally feminine. B is fearless, driven, and powerful, but also bitter and rash. Overall, traditionally masculine.

Really? I'm not trying to be contrary, but when I glanced at that I had exactly the opposite picture. A was the quiet, collecting-and-arranging fussy sort of man, the kind who bustles around keeping to themselves but has a lot of idea what's going on. B was basically Lady Macbeth.

I'm a little bit wary of people that young having very developed understanding of others (at 15?) or permanent bitterness.

Presentation is also an issue. If A is fearful and conflict-averse and draws back from the quest, is that made out to be bad, ignoble, undutiful, etc. and a selfish act? Does A gain a new perspective on the situation and decide the goal isn't worthwhile, or that a non-violent philosophy shouldn't be compromised? Does A actually lay aside an unworthy goal in favour of one that's more fulfilling, self-assigned (not by some noble) and otherwise empowering (whether "selfish" or not)? Or does A give in to fears of personal danger, or selfishly give up a worthwhile quest in favour of a personal goal, or think someone else is better, or they're unsuitable for the quest - which I'd suggest make them seem weak and are non-empowering? But dislike of conflict (especially violence) is not necessarily weakness!

Now B. Is B bitter for a good reason, or is it excessive? How bitter is B, and how does that manifest itself? E.g. do they hate the other sex or some other group; are they just generally cynical; are they self-destructive; are they resentful or someone or some group or some circumstance? What kind of rash is it made out to be - thoughtlessness (which can be a stereotype of either gender), or impulsiveness, or conclusion-jumping? Does it manifest as putting B in danger, putting others in danger, actively hurting others (e.g. instant dislike) or what? Does B use their drive constructively? Are they driven in an obsessive way, or relentless and disciplined and iron-willed? What are they driven to do, or think? It might interplay with gender stereotypes. I also wonder what you mean by "powerful" - strong? a weapon master? charismatic? has social authority? lots of magic powers?

Also, I hate to state the obvious, but maybe their personalities would change a bit in the course of this quest - in which case both the end of this, and the possible sequel, would be affected. B might work out some personal problems, for example, or lose the lust for power, or learn to be cautious. And would they need someone to step in and sort them out, or would they seek advice to solve the sequel problems?

Oh, one more thing - why do you say someone conquering the continent is a "happy ending"?

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Andrew Currall

at 09:37 on 2009-12-29

Also, don't know if this helps, but as long as the characters are 3-dimensional and well-developed, it's okay for them to have "traditional gender traits" in my opinion.

I agree very strongly with this. Never allowing female characters to be "traditionally feminine" is just as bad as always making them so.

The problem with this two-character situation is a special (and extreme) case of the general problem with portraying diversity in fiction. Any given story will have a limited number of characters and situations, and therefore cannot portray a fully diverse situation, and is therefore open to acusations of sexism/racism/etc. on some level.

It's absurd, for example, to accuse a book with two male protagonists of sexism because it fails to have any major female characters (and it's equally absurd to object to it on the grounds that it has only two major characters- there's nothing wrong with that), and yet, if 80% of such books fall into that category, there is clearly a problem. I don't see a simple solution to the dilemma.

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Jamie Johnston

at 18:52 on 2009-12-29

There's also nothing wrong with an all white cast of characters; read The Lord of the Rings.

I'm tempted to trawl through it now to see how many of the characters are actually described as being, or can reasonably be inferred to be, white. But I'm too lazy. Would be mildly interesting, though.

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Andy G

at 20:43 on 2009-12-29

I think you'll find a great many villains are referred to as "swarthy".

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 22:23 on 2009-12-29Yes - but, as has been said before (and not by me) (1) this was written by an Englishman who specifically set out to write a mythology for England. So, if most of his characters are white, it's hardly surprising. And (2) his two (or three, if you count Gollum) worst villains are emphatically white, and described as such.

That said, I think the films are more "racist" than the books. I missed the brown-skinned (described as 'swarthy') people marching in to defend Minas Tirith, and wish Jackson had included that scene. He also cast a couple of blonds for characters who are canonically dark-haired, and Legolas was blond in the movies, but not in the books -

Even so, point taken. These aren't perfect books, though I think they are very great and love them dearly. )

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Andy G

at 22:40 on 2009-12-29I meant more that to me it's pretty clear that the main characters are all white, even if it's not explicitly stated that they are. Whether that's justified or defensible or not is a separate question.

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Jamie Johnston

at 22:51 on 2009-12-29

I meant more that to me it's pretty clear that the main characters are all white, even if it's not explicitly stated that they are.

Indeed, and I admit I was just feeling a bit contrary when I made the above remark. It's impossible to believe that Tolkein had in mind any but white faces on his principal heroes.

Nonetheless, I'm also mindful of

Dan's recent remarks

, which I found rather inspiring and exciting, about how good a result you can get by creatively filling canonical gaps with material that wilfully disregards the original author's clear intention.

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Robinson L

at 03:06 on 2009-12-31

Orion: But I don't want to clutter the comment thread with a lengthy synopsis, in case Robinson is still using it.

I'm not as it happens, although other people seem to be making use of it for another Tolkien discussion.

I actually meant to get back to the gender issues between your two main characters, I've just been busy. I also wasn't sure if it would be feasible for you to explain the issues; thank you for obliging.

There've already been a number of excellent suggestions, but for whatever it's worth I'll add my opinion.

Basically, I agree with Melissa G that you can make a lot of things work out if you write conscientiously. You can get away with quite a lot if you make it crystal clear that certain traits belong strictly to a character, rather than to their demographic status (sex/race/sexual orientation/age etc.). If you have one character who follows the gender stereotypes, you can counterbalance that by depicting positive examples of other characters who defy those stereotypes.

It'd probably also be helpful (from a characterization perspective if none other) to show aspects of your main characters which defy stereotype as well as aspects which conform to it. In my experience, we're all an amalgam of both.

Of course, there's always the option of making one of the characters

intersex

, but I suspect you'd find that even harder to pull off than both main characters female.

Like Shimmin, I'm also curious how “conquering the continent” is supposed to make for a “happy ending.”

As to Tolkien ... my writing teacher once told me that before the movies came out, her young son thought Frodo was black, and that one of the other Hobbits—Merry, I think—was Native American. Apropos of absolutely nothing.

Mary J: These aren't perfect books, though I think they are very great and love them dearly.

And I concur.

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http://orionsnebula.blogspot.com/

at 17:07 on 2010-01-06Mm. Too much playing wargames has me using "conquer" to mean "acquire territory," not "subjugate culturally different peoples."

What actually happens is more like a re-unificiation. Picture an Istanbul kind of place--a city leftover from a high-tech imperium, re-developing a technological edge over their neighbors and annexing them relatively bloodlessly to implement better economic tech.

Thanks for all the advice on characterization.

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Shim

at 22:34 on 2011-02-02I finally got around to reading the copy of

The Ear, the Eye and the Arm

which I bought in response to the comments here. Or rather, I sat down and devoured it in one sitting. Personally I really enjoyed it. While I definitely see what Robinson means about the English tribe being rather stereotypical, I read it as very consciously done that way, along the lines that other cultures are often depicted in fiction and with a slightly mischievous feel. Especially as Farmer uses the book to gently educate the reader about Zimbabwean culture. It's not really more stereotypical than their portrayal in light-hearted English writing (Wodehouse? Pratchett?).

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 03:37 on 2011-02-03Actually, Shimmin, that was me, and I'm the person who recommended the book in the first place. Glad you enjoyed it! I do think you're right that the English tribe is presented much the way the English themselves presented tribal peoples, and that it's rather tongue in cheek.

Now you'll have to let us know what you think of "House of the Scorpion" (hint, hint!)

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

Now you'll have to let us know what you think of "House of the Scorpion" (hint, hint!)

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http://mary-j-59.livejournal.com/

at 03:38 on 2011-02-03Sorry for the double post, btw. It wasn't intentional.

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Shim

at 09:05 on 2011-02-03Sorry! I scrolled up for a quick check, saw Robinson's name in a related post, and assumed that was the one I was looking for. Teach me to make posts just before bedtime.

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Robinson L

at 18:02 on 2011-02-03

Shimmin: Teach me to make posts just before bedtime.

I should say so; you had me scrolling through the comment thread for ten minutes yesterday saying 'Did I say that? I didn't - did I?' [smiley face]

If you loved

The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm

, you'll probably like

House of the Scorpion

, too.

I read it over the summer, and my reaction was precisely as "meh" as it was to the former. Hey ho.

I'm also working my way through Michelle Paver's

Wolf Brother

, though (on audiobook! Read by Sir Ian effing McKellan!) and while I'm about as ambivalent on the characters, I feel like the story is progressing faster, which suits me just fine, and I'm really enjoying her world-building with the culture(s) of the Clans.

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http://cammalot.livejournal.com/

at 17:11 on 2011-02-04Just realized that I've had an ARC of "House of the Scorpion" in my basement for... not quite a decade, but close. This is ridiculous. I think I may be obligated to read it, after reading this thread. (I enjoy Gaiman; can't stand Alexander's "Prydain," but wish I'd read him as a child instead of as a thirtysomething. I remember loving "Lukas-Kasha.")

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Steve Stirling at 05:59 on 2011-07-13

This “history is too dangerous for black people” line is a pretty obvious attempt by Willis to excuse her use of all-white main casts.

-- she's dealing with -English- history. For most of its history prior to the post-WWII period, England was as near all-white as no matter. There were only a few tens of thousands of non-white people in Britain in 1914 (out of 45 million), and that included transients and exotics such as Daleep Singh. Most of the rest were resident in London and a couple of other port cities, together with the odd Indian university student. You could live your entire life in most parts of Victorian England and never meet anyone who wasn't white.

It's not that visiting the earlier eras of English history would necessarily be -dangerous- for a non-white character, although as you go back further in time the likelihood of any obvious outsider getting mobbed and killed goes up(*).

It's just that they would, however accurately they were dressed and coached in language and customs, be hideously conspicuous. Everyone would notice them; children would stare, yokel jaws would drop, and curiosity would be intrusive. They might be able to pass as a visitor, but they couldn't blend in and their time would be taken up with explanations.

More generally, the sort of "diversity" we're used to is a product of the post-Columbian mass intercontinental migrations. Until then, it was rare for people of very different physical types to be present in any numbers in any given location, save for a (very rare) scattering of trading cities. The overwhelming majority of human beings lived in monochromatic environments.

Incidentally, it was those colonial and post-colonial migrations that gave rise to our concept of "race".

If in say, 1200 CE you'd started in Dalarna in Sweden and walked to Korea or the Sudan (around the Mediterranean), you would never have come to a "racial" frontier. People's average physical appearance would have changed, very gradually, as you walked from farm to farm and hamlet to hamlet, until by the time you got to Korea or the middle Nile you'd be in places where the locals were "Asian" or "Black". It was a cline, as is normal with widespread species of mammal.

The seaborne explosion of the West Europeans and the empires of sailing ships and muskets brought people from one end of the cline into contact with people from the other ends on a large scale for the first time, and the physical differences seemed so striking as to demand an explanation. Hence, "race".

(*) the English were an exceedingly xenophobic people for most of their history. Even in London, a cosmopolitan trading port, an obvious foreigner might well have children follow him and throw rocks or lumps of horse-dung as late as Tudor times. Out in the countryside until well into the Victorian period even English people from the next county would be regarded with suspicion, and someone really exotic would be in some danger of being set on and beaten or killed unless known to be under the protection of the local gentry.

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Michal

at 06:15 on 2011-07-13

That sounds rather like what happens when a black person shows up in a Polish town. I wish that were a joke, actually.

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Steve Stirling at 07:13 on 2011-07-13

That sounds rather like what happens when a black person shows up in a Polish town. I wish that were a joke, actually.

-- shrug.

I've been places in Africa where a muzungu gets equivalent attention. It's all what you're used to; I don't see why it should be thought odd that people react with curiosity to something they're not accustomed to seeing.

A few years ago some white guys were in a really, -really- remote part of Ethiopia, where no Europeans had been through for generations, and a local woman burst into tears at the sight of them.

It turned out she thought they had leprosy.

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Robinson L

at 22:35 on 2011-07-14

Steve: It's not that visiting the earlier eras of English history would necessarily be -dangerous- for a non-white character

Right, and I don't disagree with any of your racial history of England. But she does couch it in terms of "all of history" being "too dangerous" rather than "I'd be way too conspicuous." (One gets the distinct impression that Lady Schrapnell would've responded to an argument of "too conspicuous" with "then get creative and scoot" whereas she had back down for "too dangerous.")

My problem with this passage (apart from the unfortunate implications) is that it reads to me like Connie Willis saying "Oh, of course, I

would

include prominent character of color, it's just that ..." where if she really, truly, desperately wanted to do so, she could have found a way with a little ingenuity. (A few tens of thousands is a lot more than none.) It feels like trying to win anti-racist brownie points while still writing all about white people, which strikes me as disingenuous.

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Steve Stirling at 17:54 on 2011-07-15

It feels like trying to win anti-racist brownie points while still writing all about white people, which strikes me as disingenuous.

I wouldn't have bothered. It's just silly bending over backward to send non-white people into an overwhelmingly white environment if you're trying to be inconspicuous.

Just as it would be dumb to send white agents into medieval Ghana, or Tang China.

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valse de la lune

at 18:12 on 2011-07-15And yet there're tons of books about white characters set in medieval [insert exotic brown/yellow-people land here] places, or fantasy analogues of such. So...

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Robinson L

at 18:29 on 2011-07-15

It's just silly bending over backward to send non-white people into an overwhelmingly white environment if you're trying to be inconspicuous.

My point still being that she comes off to me like she's trying to pass herself off as a white anti-racist without doing any serious anti-racism work.

And yet there're tons of books about white characters set in medieval [insert exotic brown/yellow-people land here] places, or fantasy analogues of such.

Too true, and had Willis done the same in reverse, I expect she would've been subjected to a firestorm of criticism for her inauthenticity. Heck, I probably would have chimed in without even thinking about the parallels.

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Arthur B

at 19:07 on 2011-07-15

I wouldn't have bothered. It's just silly bending over backward to send non-white people into an overwhelmingly white environment if you're trying to be inconspicuous.

Unless, of course, it would be more silly to deprive the expedition of said individuals' expertise.

Most time travellers sent to the past are going to end up looking out of place sooner or later - if I were sent back to medieval Europe I might look the part in terms of skin colour, but I'm sure people will take note of the unusually tall man with bizarrely white, perfect teeth. A key skill of any time traveller has to be the ability to come up with a convincing line of bullshit to explain away any oddities which people are going to pick up. And ultimately, "I am a traveller from a distant land" is a damn good excuse for most eras because hey, how the hell is anyone going to disprove it?

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Steve Stirling at 21:44 on 2011-07-15

And yet there're tons of books about white characters set in medieval [insert exotic brown/yellow-people land here] places, or fantasy analogues of such. So...

-- not when a sensible author is writing about a time-travel organization trying to slip people in inconspicuously.

If you're using a lone adventurer in a fantasy setting, that's one thing. But Willis' stories are about -historical investigators-.

They are, essentially, spies trying to pass themselves off as locals.

Eg., take Poul Anderson's Time Patrol series. The Time Patrol sends Manse Everard into settings where he doesn't stand out too much, or in which it doesn't matter.

When they need a specialist, they send someone of the appropriate appearance, or use their far-future medical skills to disguise people. Eg., the Indian historical specialist who Everard tags along with when they're investigating a Mongol intrusion into 13th-century America, or the one shown studying the inhabitants of pre-Columbian Peru.

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Steve Stirling at 21:50 on 2011-07-15

if I were sent back to medieval Europe I might look the part in terms of skin colour, but I'm sure people will take note of the unusually tall man with bizarrely white, perfect teeth.

-- urban myth, there, actually. First, people in medieval Europe (or Roman-era Italy) were only an inch or two shorter than the average for the 20th century. The -average- height was lower, but the range of "non-obtrusively bizarre" heights was quite similar.

There's been a lot of variation in heights over time. 1776-period white Americans were the same average height as those in the 1940's. There was a sharp dip in average heights during the 19th century, probably due to immigration and environmental stresses.

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Steve Stirling at 21:56 on 2011-07-15

And ultimately, "I am a traveller from a distant land" is a damn good excuse for most eras because hey, how the hell is anyone going to disprove it?

-- by knowing something about the distant land, for starters. Not to mention little things like the fact that travelers often needed -permission- to wander around. There was a lot of restriction and bureaucracy in much of the past.

Eg., a black person in medieval England would probably be assumed to be a Muslim or 'Moor'. And might very well be attacked because of it, or if they were perceived as Jewish. They would certainly needed permission from someone in authority to be there, and would have to show the equivalent of credentials.

In the 18th century, the general assumption would be that a black person was a slave.

If you claim to come from somewhere so distant that nobody knows anything about it, you're going to attract a -lot- of attention. If word got around that a traveler from Cathay was present in, say, 1200 CE, the King would probably want to meet them.

The safest way to observe would be to be someone who could pass for a local (but not from the immediate neighborhood); this would require a lot of research and training (lanuage, for instance, and of course social customs) and would be easiest if you fit the predominant local phenotype.

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Arthur B

at 22:03 on 2011-07-15

Not to mention little things like the fact that travelers often needed -permission- to wander around. There was a lot of restriction and bureaucracy in much of the past.

Sure, but it's not like they had fast communication for most of the time. Someone turns up at the outskirts of the Empire with a

perfectly reproduced

warrant from Caesar stating that they're allowed to be here. It's going to be at least weeks before anyone's able to actually send word to Rome to check, during which time the traveller's going to have done their business and left.

If word got around that a traveler from Cathay was present in, say, 1200 CE, the King would probably want to meet them.

Which is actually bloody useful if you're specifically trying to infiltrate the King's circles.

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Steve Stirling at 22:04 on 2011-07-15For what being a "conspicuous stranger" was like, it's illuminating to read explorer's accounts of Europeans traveling through parts of Africa and Asia where Westerners were uncommon, in the early modern era.

First, you're always on show. People notice you; and they stare. You have to answer the same questions over and over and over again; people rub your skin to see if the color comes off, pull at your hair to see why it's that funny shade/form, peer into your face, ask your local guide if you're really human or some bizarre kind of monkey or possibly a devil. They try to lift bits and pieces of your gear as souveneirs, or just because you're a stranger and nobody will care if you're robbed.

Next, there's a fair likelihood of violent hostility. People can suddenly take offense for reasons you don't understand and try to beat you up or kill you. Conversely they may be suddenly friendly and you don't know if it's genuine or a ploy to take you off your guard.

For most of history most of humankind has lived in small, tightly-knit communities of people who are all related to each other.

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Steve Stirling at 22:16 on 2011-07-15

Which is actually bloody useful if you're specifically trying to infiltrate the King's circles.

-- however, the people in Connie's story were trying to pass themselves off as English.

If you're violently out of context for your setting, your life becomes about the way in which you're out of context -and not much else-.

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valse de la lune

at 22:17 on 2011-07-15

For what being a "conspicuous stranger" was like, it's illuminating to read explorer's accounts of Europeans traveling through parts of Africa and Asia where Westerners were uncommon, in the early modern era.

Yeah, it's illuminating how westerners of that era and western tourists of today are equally obnoxious, arrogant, objectifying and offensive.

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Arthur B

at 22:19 on 2011-07-15

For most of history most of humankind has lived in small, tightly-knit communities of people who are all related to each other.

But occasionally humanity has spawned sprawling, ethnically diverse civilisations in which people travelling from one end of the Empire to the other was far from unheard-of. The Roman Empire stretched from the border of Scotland to North Africa to the Middle East, with trade occurring between all regions and from places beyond. (Trade goods from India and the remains of people from sub-Saharan Africa have been discovered in Pompeii, for example.)

And as for genuinely insular cultures... why aren't the time travellers interested in any black ones?

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Arthur B

at 22:55 on 2011-07-15

-- however, the people in Connie's story were trying to pass themselves off as English.

But the specific quote Robinson was highlighting suggested that black people were more or less never sent back in time, regardless of the mission parameters.

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Steve Stirling at 08:58 on 2011-07-19

But the specific quote Robinson was highlighting suggested that black people were more or less never sent back in time, regardless of the mission parameters.

-- having read the book(s), I was under the impression that the Oxford project sent people back in time to, specifically, the past of Britain. They were investigating their own history.

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Steve Stirling at 09:00 on 2011-07-19Pyrofennec:

Yeah, it's illuminating how westerners of that era and western tourists of today are equally obnoxious, arrogant, objectifying and offensive.

-- I'm impressed by your reluctance to indulge in stereotypic descriptions... 8-).

Have you actually -read- any of the traveler's chronicles I mentioned? Ah.

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Steve Stirling at 09:17 on 2011-07-19

-- that would apply to the British Empire as well, pretty much. But in both the British and, even more, in the Roman empire, most people were peasants and rarely moved except when pushed by some disaster.

(Like Caesar's conquest of Gaul, when over a tenth of the population were killed, and another tenth sold into slavery.)

Incidentally, one of the interesting sidelights on the Roman Empire in Britain revealed by recent excavations along Hadrian's Wall is that the Romans (actually auxiliary troops, in this case) had an insulting nickname for the natives; "Brittuculi", "little Brits". Or freely translated, "wogs".

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Arthur B

at 10:40 on 2011-07-19

But in both the British and, even more, in the Roman empire, most people were peasants and rarely moved except when pushed by some disaster.

OK, responding to people's arguments when they can't argue back is kind of a dick move, but I wanted to respond to this point in particular because it's one I often hear from people in these discussions:

most people

is far from the same as being

everyone

, and doesn't change the fact that international trade (and, therefore, international travel) was a widespread and accepted fact of life in the Roman and British Empires.

Even if 99.9% of people still never stray far from the place they were born, when you're dealing with an Empire of

millions of people

, that 0.1% comes out to what is actually a fairly decent number of folks.

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http://naava2448.livejournal.com/

at 11:07 on 2012-11-08I found this article insightful and interesting. I hate to nitpick, but a single phrase here I found deeply problematic and liable to open a can of worms, so to speak. I'm talking about:

I ask you, the entirety of human history as a sort of Auschwitz/Gaza Strip for blacks?

The first issue here is not so serious, simply irritating. The tendency to have the holocaust as a yardstick for evil, is, I find, simple in the short term (since everyone knows what it is and how evil it was), but long term far more like to cloud an issue rather than clarify it.

In this case it's not wrong to compare certain periods of black history to the holocaust, since they certainly underwent periods of oppression, ethmic cleansing and genocide, but wouldn't it have been far better to point out examples from *black* history? Such as Belgian Congo, or, if you want to bring up a concentration camp, Shark Island Extermination Camp that was used during the Herero and Namaqua genocide in Namibia?

My second point is more contentious. Mentioning Auschwitz and the Gaza Strip in the same breath creates an implicit comparison and analogy between the two. Even though it is possible to say 'the inmates in Auschwitz and the Palestinians in Gaza are both oppressed' the situations in these two places are so different on so many levels that casting both in the same light is a serious misunderstanding both of the holocaust and of the Palestinian situation. Such a comparison is damaging to all involved.

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Robinson L

at 15:06 on 2012-11-09Good points, both. Thank you.

I think your second point stands without need for further discussion. In regards to your first point, I think you're absolutely right that an example out of African history would be best.

I think to make my argument strongest, I want to be able to focus on a specific hub of extreme violence rather than something nebulous like, say, a plantation. I'm not sure if the Belgian Congo fits the bill - I'd have to research it further. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the Shark Island Extermination Camp, or any other specific examples which fit my criteria. Perhaps it would be best if I changed the wording to "death camp," for the moment, and then spend some time over the weekend doing a little research to find a specific example which seems fitting.

I'll start with the Belgian Congo and Shark Island Extermination Camp. If you have any other suggestions, I'll happily look into them, too.

Again, thanks for constructive feedback.

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Robinson L

at 22:00 on 2015-05-01A bit of news related to topics touched on in the article, and fleshed out more in the discussion in the comments:

I've maintained for years that white majority audiences are more open to movies and TV with substantial people of color casts,

and this is what I call confirmation

(Found via

Gradient Lair

, which points out that these findings even knock down the cutthroat capitalist "there's less money in diverse programming" argument for movies and television being overwhelmingly white.)

#Ferretbrain #State of Fear #Uplift #To Say Nothing of the Dog #The Interpreter #Minority Warrior #Robinson L

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