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Episode 12.2 Transcript: It's Crover.

[Garageband version of Buddy Holly’s “Everyday” plays]

C: Hello! My name is Crystal. G: And my name is Grey. C: And this is Rubbish and Probably a Podcast, a Good Omens commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show too many times... G: And I, someone who only knows the show- [laughs] No. [C: No.] C: You know this show intimately. Biblically, even. G: Yeah, Biblically. And I, someone who has also seen this show quite a bunch of times discuss every single episode of Good Omens. C: For today's episode, we are discussing the second half [G laughs] of Season 2, Episode 6, "Every Day." I think all of us should just die forever and ever and ever, personally.

G: Good lord! [C groans] The thing is, if somebody listens to the beginning of last episode only, they'll be like, "What the fuck is Grey on right now? Like, I thought he hated this thing." [C screams] And I literally- I changed my mind. I changed my mind. [C: Yeah.] Last episode was a lie. I was lying. I was lying to you. [C laughs] I'm so sorry. Well, I give a fuck now.

C: Well, I've always had integrity. [G laughs] I've never lied to the podcast people. I know what I like and I have stuck to it. And I think all of us should die, also. [G: Okay, well.] There's no Amazon summary. [G: We should just start. Yeah, we should just start.] I'm so scawed. [G laughs] I've been so scawed- 'Cause we were supposed to record this like, a week ago, so like, the week leading up to that week, I was so scared we were gonna do a bad job, and then it got pushed back a week, so I was scared for another week, and now I'm scared now. [mocking voice] I hope everybody likes us! [laughs] Like, okay. You can do it. [G: You're scawed.] I am scawed. - So we left off last time with everyone in Hell heading out, and now we cut outside to Give Me Coffee or Give Me Death. [G: Boo!] Yeah, Metatron's ordering. Nina opens with "Order accurately and fast. I haven't slept in thirty hours, and I will not hesitate to mock you if I don't like your order." I mean, good for her. People need to stop doing customer service "properly" or whatever the fuck. The Metatron orders a large oatmeal latte with a dash of almond syrup, so later, when he told Aziraphale that it was a "hefty jigger," that was a lie. He was lying to him. [G laughs] Be on the lookout for false information. Then he goes, "Do people ever ask for death? Because, you know, the name of your establishment? I assume they always ask for coffee." And Nina's like, "You're weird. I don't like you. And no, they don't." And he goes, "So predictable," 'cause I guess he is planning with death of every single human on Earth. Slay. [G: Fun stuff.] Fun stuff.

G: God. And then Aziraphale didn't even know! Like, at this point.

C: Yeah, he didn't. Crowley did but did not seem to GAF at all in Heaven, but I think she GAFs a little now. So we return to the bookshop, and we've already complained about this last episode, but I think we should get to complain about it more!

G: No, but the thing is like, they both don't care! [C laughing] Like, last episode, you were like, "And Crowley doesn't even care that Aziraphale's getting Booked of Life," but like, Aziraphale also does not care that he's getting Booked of Life, right?

C: I- okay. His face, he looks kind of sad, maybe a little surprised. I think he's still just sort of processing what this even means 'cause Michael's just started saying it, but you are right that this is not really an acting moment. Like, this isn't a moment when I look at Aziraphale’s face and I'm like, "Wow, this really conveys an emotion that I feel strongly." And it's a very brief reaction shot of him, too, so it's like, you really don't get a lot.

G: I mean, again, like, this was the thing that everything hinged upon, right? This threat.

C: Yeah. The only reason you're doing anything in the modern day is to avoid being Booked of Lifed. It is not treated like a real threat by the narrative when it actually happens 'cause it's like, the writers know it's gonna be interrupted soon. But like, we don't know, and the characters don't know that it's going to be interrupted soon. [G laughs] Like, do something about it!

G: God. It's so funny to me. No, because, like, you don't see Crowley immediately. [C laughs] And the thing that's funny to me the most is like, Crowley, pan the camera, and he's sitting there. It's like, what the fuck? [C: Yeah. They just did not give a shit.] And the thing is, we actually do see him, like, when Metatron comes in, and we get like, a Aziraphale reaction shot, Crowley is on the side. But like, for me, I didn't see him there the first time, so my realization that Crowley is in this scene was when Metatron goes, "You, demon." And I was like, "What? Why is he here? Who the fuck is the demon?" [C: God.] And apparently, it was Crowley. Crazy. [C: Apparently, it was Crowley. I just-] What is the logic behind this scene? What's the logic behind this scene? [C: Behind what?] Like, how did this come to be? Why is Crowley sitting on that chair? [both laugh] Why is Aziraphale standing here? Why are the angels lined up in front of- like, you know. Why is Muriel by the side?

C: It's true. Because they were both standing when Hell disappeared. So you're telling me that as soon as that happened, [G: Crowley took a seat-] Crowley just flopped down in a chair and was like, "Michael, have at it."? Like [both laughing], what?

G: It's just so- the thing is like, if this scene is played the same, exact same, but Crowley is standing beside Aziraphale, I would be like, "Yeah, it's fine." But [laughing] what is this?

C: Yeah. It's fine. Crowley feels helpless, etc etc. But like, yeah. And, you know, I was trying really hard. I was like, "What if he's doing his like, forcing themself to be asleep panic response like in 2.04?" But they fucking are not. They're not.

G: [laughing] Don't fucking do that. I mean, in 2.04, Crowley is the one in danger. [C: Yeah.] So like, for me, it makes sense if Crowley was like, "Whatever. I'm just gonna sleep." But here, like, Aziraphale's the one in danger. So like, you actually- [laughs] Like, what is happening? [C laughs] I don't know.

C: I feel like a lot of the emotional resonance of Crowley and Gabriel's relationship in this season is that Crowley was there for Aziraphale’s execution, and Aziraphale wasn't. And now we got a scene where both of them are here for Aziraphale’s execution, and Aziraphale's like, finally, like, really facing down the fact that, like, this is something that the angels were willing to do to him and want to do to him again, and like, it's played as completely nothing!

G: Crowley is witnessing them do this again. Is he just like, "I've seen it before. [C laughs] I don't know. I'm bored. This happens every day."

C: "Yeah, I mean, I tried to help once, but like, you know, I'm not taking notes for this watch." Yeah. We've been complaining, but what has happened is that Michael is saying that she is authorized to remove the name of anyone who helped Gabriel from the Book of Life, and so Aziraphale will never have existed.

G: Is the thinking here that both of them are gonna get Booked of Lifed? [C: I think it's just Aziraphale.] But like, Crowley also helped.

C: Yes. But I guess the idea is that Heaven does its punishment by itself [G: Crowley's not under- yeah.], Hell does its punishment by itself. So yeah, Crowley's not under Michael's jurisdiction, which I think is helpful to know for Season 3. I think people have been worried about Crowley getting erased. So yeah. She says that she's the Supreme Archangel. and Uriel interrupts with "Duty officer." which is like, a running gag that I think is fun enough. At least it gives Uriel something to do throughout the season. Metatron just comes in. Saraqael seems to recognize him immediately. Uriel seems to catch on too, but Michael does not at first. So when Metatron says that he has to interrupt, and that everyone here is talking utter balderdash, Michael's like, "Uh, I didn't ask for any interruptions. Who are you?"

G: Why is it that they don't recognize him?

C: I don't- just thought he's usually a big floating head? I mean, [laughs] I didn't recognize him the first time I watched this episode. Well, I recognized him by this point, but I didn't recognize him at the coffee shop.

G: I don't know. It is offputting to me that's it's Crowley who like, recognizes the Metatron.

C: Crowley's the one that saw the Metatron’s face most recently because of the Zoom call. We don't know how often the angels [G: That's true.]- Last week, though, actually. Because that's when Gabriel got kicked out. Like, last week. So they probably should have remembered. But also, I was gonna say that maybe angels are like, looking at something metaphysical instead, but if that was true, the bodyswap would never have worked, so.

G: Yeah, I was thinking that because, like, the Metatron is like, the representative of God. The voice of God. When the angels see the Metatron, is there like a- do you know what I mean? [C: Is there like, an energy, or like, a halo thing? Like, something to-] Yeah. But also, that's not true. Because, like, in Season 1, Aziraphale was able to recognize that this is not God, it's the Metatron, you know.

C: No, he wasn't. [G: No-!] He asked, "Am I speaking to God?" [G: Oh, yeah! Okay.] It's sort of an extended bit. I don't really see what the point of it is. But he asks, "What about you, demon? Do you know me?" Which, I mean, interesting that he calls Crowley "demon," but refers him by name when talking to Aziraphale.

G: Also, like, I don't know. Everything about the way the angels interact with Crowley is so interesting. Gabriel doesn't even look at Crowley. [C: That's true.] And then, like, in this moment, Aziraphale is getting punished, and like, they're just ignoring this demon who also did the same things Aziraphale did. [C: Mm-hm.] And later, I know Muriel was also in the room when it happened, but like, Muriel was already acknowledged as "You stay there. But, like, you're an outsider to this conversation." And Crowley wasn't. And then the Metatron goes up to Aziraphale and goes, "It's just the two of us now." or nothing. [C: Yeah, no. And like, it's not.] And Crowley's still there. [C: Yeah. Crowley to is in this episode.] The way the angels talk about Crowley like he just doesn't exist is so fascinating to me.

C: Crowley is a former demon, too, right? So it's like, not the direct enemy anymore, and not an angel. [G: Not even worth a damn.] Yeah. Or she's like, sort of like, human status in their minds now? [G: Yeah, but not pillar of salt-able. I can see it] Yeah, not pillar of salt. Also, I mean, Heaven and Hell have a whole like, noninterference thing going on a lot of the time. I guess there's also that. Crowley recognizes him. That's when Aziraphale’s like, "Oh, the Metatron!" Metatron tells all the archangels to go back to Heaven immediately, but not Muriel. Uriel asks, "Have we done anything wrong?" And the Metatron says, "Well, that remains to be seen, does it not?" What does that mean? [G: What do you mean "What does it mean?"] Like, what are the things that would make what they did wrong, and what are the things that would make what they did right.

G: Letting Gabriel go, maybe? Not punishing Gabriel. [C: Sure? I guess.] For me, the reason why Uriel is asking this, in my opinion, is the fact that the Metatron is even here in the first place. And we see like, earlier this episode, the last time the Metatron was here was because something went wrong with Gabriel. If the Metatron is here now, then something must be wrong also.

C: Okay. I just thought it was a reaction to him coming in and saying "All of you are saying complete nonsense." [G: Yeah, I mean that, too.] Yeah, I suppose. He also said that Michael doesn't have the authority to remove Aziraphale from the Book of Life. Who does have the authority? [G: She's not the Supreme Archangel yet.] Okay. So the regular Supreme Archangel would be able to do it. [G: To Book of Life?] Yeah.

G: [gasps] Yeah, probably. [C: Go, Aziraphale!] [laughs] Aziraphale, you need to Book of Life Crowley.

C: Aziraphale, you need to write down Neil Gaiman’s name [G laughs] in your Death Note.

G: God! What if Aziraphale does Book of Life Crowley? I think it should happen.

C: Why- [G laughing] What- Under what circumstances would that happen? [G laughs]

G: I don't know. Sometimes you're really bitter about your ex, [C laughs] and you just want to forget them, and you wish they never existed, so. [C laughs]

C: And then you actually make them never exist?

G: I mean, have you seen Thelma? The movie Thelma?

C: I have not. [G: Well, you should.] [G laughs] Yeah, okay. I mean, okay. If they memory wipe Aziraphale and then tell him, "Hey, can you just cross this this line out? It's not a big deal." Like, maybe. But I don't think that in his right mind, he would. He tells everyone to go away, and they do go away except for- he calls Muriel "the dim one," which, not very niceys, and says he might need them.

G: Muriel's right there. Why would you say that?

C: Yeah, it doesn't seem to hurt them, but it's not niceys! [G: Not niceys.] So if they'd actually played up Aziraphale and Crowley being scawed during the Book of Life threat, I feel like the fact that step one of Metatron getting Aziraphale to trust him being that he did just save his life would actually hit. But, like, it doesn't hit, you know? Like, I feel like a lot of people-

G: God, I didn't even consider that the Metatron saved Aziraphale's life through this.

C: No, exactly! [laughs] Exactly. It isn't played like that. You don't get that vibe. [G: Yeah.] But like, obviously, Aziraphale would start off being grateful and also thinking that Metatron might have come along to his idea of thinking if this is how they re-meet. So like, of course, Aziraphale would like, start off being willing to trust him. Like, that makes sense. But like, they don't play it like that. Yeah. The Metatron does say, "It's just you and me, Aziraphale, eh? I think we need to have a bit of a chinwag, don't you?" [laughs] Why does he talk like this? He's talks so funny.

G: [laughs] The thing is like, you look at the Metatron, and it's like, white hair, talks like this, and then you look at Aziraphale, and you're like, "What is this?" [both laugh] Is this like, gay on gay violence? Is this what's happening right now? [C laughs]

C: I mean, he does shoot Crowley a "steal your man" look before leaving the bookstore. [G laughs]

G: Exactly. Like, maybe the Metatron didn't even look like this before, he just put on this hair to be like, "And look at me, Aziraphale. We're just like each other for fucking real." [C laughs]

C: Yeah, though, I mean, he did grow a beard in between seasons, which is moving away from what Aziraphale looks like. So who knows?

G: God. What if next season, Aziraphale does have a beard? Have you considered?

C: A lot of people really want it to happen. A lot of people really don't. And I'm on the "really, really don't" train [G: Yeah.] regarding that. That's Michael Sheen. Get him out.

G: Yeah. I want Crowley to grow her hair so beautifully.

C: Yes. Yes. Crowley should grow her hair out. Crowley should have a depression mane.

G: Exactly. But like, I don't know. Maybe it'll be like, a nice distinction for Aziraphale to have something change, appearance-wise. Because, like, Aziraphale has always been- C: He's gonna have different clothes! G: That's true. Do you think they're gonna put Aziraphale in different clothes next season?

C: Yeah, well, when Gabriel gets demoted, "appropriate raiment will be provided for him, and his suit is not appropriate." So I think that when Aziraphale gets promoted, they're gonna be like, "Your suit is not appropriate. Here, be in these gray suits, like the rest of us."

G: But he is Supreme Archangel, so he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

C: I mean, [laughs] he can't, though. He will have no power.

G: That's true, that's true, that's true. That's a lie, they're lying to him.

C: Aziraphale says, "I don't believe there's anything left to be said. I've made my position quite clear." though he is like, nervous and looking away. [G: Position on what?] What do you mean? [G: Position on what?] The apocalypse. Heaven in general. [G: Ah, okay, I get it. Okay. Yeah.] He literally has made his position quite clear. I wuv you, Aziraphale. So like, what does he think the Metatron wants to talk to him about? My first guess is that it's just a regular debriefing about the Gabriel situation. Like, "fill me in on what he was doing these few days" or whatever.

G: Okay. When you first watched this, what did you think the kiss was about? What did you think was gonna happen at the end of the season? C: Like, before I started the whole thing? G: No, like, here at this moment. Metatron comes in. What do you think is happening?

C: Well, okay. I was still in denial about the kiss. Like, I was like, "It's not even gonna happen. It's a cut scene. And that's why Neil Gaiman's so upset that it got leaked." I was still unwilling to accept that the kiss happens into my heart, so I'm not really sure, 'cause I was still in, you know, full denial mode. Also- G: But did you think they were gonna break up? [C: No.] What's the deal?

C: No, I thought it was like, a romantic kiss. I mean, I thought it would have happened in more of a like, Episode 5 sort of context, where it's like- 'cause, like, Crowley's sunglasses are on, so I was like, "Oh, Crowley's about to like, leave to do something somewhat dangerous, related to the plot. And this is like, a 'goodbye, I'll see you again'" thing. G: That's crazy. [laughing] [C: Yeah.] And then they literally divorced. C: And then they- yeah. They literally did divorce. Also, I think the thing you need to understand is that at this point in the episode, like, I've watched all of Season 2, like, in one go. I've been like, bombarded with bad writing, like, so hard and so raw. [G: Yeah.] I'd say the first half of Season 2, Episode 6 is like, maybe the worst writing of the season. Like, I'm not paying attention. I'm in a deep, deep swamp of like, depression at this point. [laughs] Like, I sort of can register what's going on, but I'm also mostly like, in the misery dumps. So yeah. I don't know what I thought. I don't think I had any thoughts besides "I hate everything, and writing is terrible, and I hate everything so so much." What did you think? I mean, I guess you already knew, right?

G: I mean, I knew from the very get-go that they were gonna get divorced, so nothing is a surprise. I knew from the "Enchanted" AMV [C laughs] that the Metatron's gonna be here, so I wasn't surprised about that. I mean, even the beginning of the speech, I was like, "Yeah, Metatron's gonna laud over the fact that Aziraphale can turn Crowley back into an angel, because that's in the [both] 'Enchanted' AMV." [both laugh] So, I don't know. I mean, I complained last episode that, like, "I don't care about this episode because it's bad." But like, I think a big part of it is also that I just know what happens. Like, there's no surprise. [C: That's fair.] The details were something. I mean, there's a line that got me choked up. [C: Yeah. There are multiple lines that got me choked up.] The thing is like, the lines that Crowley got choked up in are the exact same lines I was like, "[gut-punch sound]. Oh my god!" [C: Yeah.] So yeah. We are just like each other for real. [C: Uh-huh.] We're not. But, you know, slay. In that moment we were.

C: Uh-huh. Yeah, I think "I don't believe there's anything left to be said" is Aziraphale breakup/argument-ending line. He tells Crowley, like, "There's nothing more to say." Yeah, the Metatron's like, "Okay. But like, I brought you a coffee." And emphasizes that it's "an oat milk latte with a hefty jigger of almond syrup." [laughs] Why does he talk like this? I think when I watched this with my friends, I think one of them paused and was like, "The British are so fucked in the head." [both laugh] And I don't think it's the British. I think it's just this guy. [G: Yeah, maybe it is just this guy.] Aziraphale gives a little like, nervous smile, but like, a little more genuine at this, and is like, "You brought me a coffee?" Yeah, I guess he's still a little nervous that there's trickery afoot, but, I mean, Metatron just saved his life, and now he's giving him a coffee, and like, Aziraphale was just mocked by Shax for enjoying human food, and the Metatron doesn't seem to be mocking him with this coffee. [G: Yeah.] So I understand where he's at emotionally. And he's like, "Should I drink it?" And the Metatron's like, "Yeah, of course. I've ingested things in my time, you know." Yeah. And the Metatron's "how do you do, fellow kids?" ploy actually does work. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] I mean, it's a good coffee. Aziraphale enjoys it. It's very nice. And the Metatron encourages that indulgement, when, as we've talked about, this entire season, the only time Aziraphale eats, Crowley makes fun of him for it. So, I mean, I get it. Like, the Metatron is doing all the steps that would work. That's when, the Metatron does the "let's talk" offer again, and Aziraphale agrees to it. But he looks back to check if Crowley is like, okay and will be fine on her own. [G: Yeah.] And Crowley's just sprawled over this chair, not giving a fuck. But, you know, what? I'm sequestering. I'm sequestering.

G: Okay. The thing that you said, like, "says yes and then like, looks over at Crowley to see if Crowley is gonna be okay," that's not how I saw it at all.

C: Yeah, sorry, sorry. Yeah, he says, "Um," and then looks over at Crowley.

G: Yeah, like, asking for permission, which is, I mean, I was like, "Okay. Well." [laughs]

C: [laughing] I don't think it's "asking for permission." It's not like, "You can't be alone with another man" sort of situation.

G: No, but like, if Crowley said no, Aziraphale wouldn't have gone.

C: I mean, I don't think Aziraphale wants to go that bad either. It's like, "Let's assess the threat level of the situation together. I want your advice."

G: Yeah. Okay, maybe like, the term "ask for permission" has, like, a stronger connotation for you than it does for me. [C: Uh-huh. Okay.] But yeah, I mean, that is what happens. So like, it's really not like. you know, Aziraphale is like, "I've made up my mind. But are you gonna be okay?" [C: That's true.] It's really not. Yeah.

C: Yeah, yeah. It is "I'm still not sure. What do you think?" And Crowley says, "Go on. Things can't get any weirder." I mean, what does Crowley think that they're going to talk about? The last thing Crowley saw was Metatron on Heavenly Zoom, being like, "I agree that we should wipe Gabriel's memory for being anti-apocalypse." Like, why would- huh?

G: That's the thing. We have to accept the fact that nobody in this episode give a shit about anything that in a way that makes sense. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I mean, they've been through a long night. Maybe they just aren't processing everything. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe Crowley thinks that the Metatron’s chill because he saved Aziraphale’s life, but I don't think that's true because, again, just saw that Zoom video. Who fucking knows? Who fucking knows? The two of them head out, and before the Metatron leaves, he like, looks back at Crowley, and there's like, an ominous music cue [G: So fucking ominous.] as he gives Crowley an evil, evil look. [laughs] And, well. Slay. - C: So after the two of them leave, Muriel is still here. And Crowley is like, "Can you be gone, please?" [both laugh]

G: Can you leave? [C: Can you leave?] But like, doesn't say it like that. He says like [C: "You should leave."], "Just fucking go, Jesus Christ," yeah. Fun stuff!

C: And Muriel's like, [proudly] "The Metatron told me to wait. He said he might need me. Me!" I'm so happy for them. Crowley's like, "Great, have a gold star," and then looks out the window and says, "They'll be back soon." Agh. She's worried! She's worried. And then says that "When Aziraphale does come back, I think we need a little 'us' time." [pained laughter] I'm already- [G: Aw.] [pained sounds] And specifically wants to go for "an extremely alcoholic breakfast at the Ritz." And I think that's- I like that line. [G: We've talked about it, yeah.] And I mean, I also like it 'cause it is what happens like, at the end of 1.06 after the bodyswap is successful. Like, Crowley is like, "Well, that was a disastrous thing, and we both survived. And now I'm gonna go to like, the place that we go to after this happens. We are returning to status quo." They're not planning to say anything right now about [G: Yeah.], I mean, being in love, or about the Second Coming? I'm not sure about when they plan to drop that news.

G: Probably when it happens. [C: I-] "Look, Aziraphale! That's the Son of God!" [both laughing] Slay.

C: But it it is very like, yeah, like, this happened. And like, there were a lot of upsetting things, and like, they witnessed an angel and a demon being in love and going off together, and also like, were told by Nina that they and Aziraphale are in a relationship, and Crowley still just wants to go back to status quo and wants to live in that forever and ever. And- [pained sounds] I think Crowley plans to tell Aziraphale within the next day about the Second Coming because, I mean, the other time they went to the Ritz was "The Apocalypse is about to happen. I just delivered this baby, and we need to hang out and then discuss how to stop it." So like, I feel like this Ritz thing is a 1.01 and a 1.06 Ritz [G: Yeah.], but Crowley just wants to have a good time first. So Muriel is like, "Oh, that's a great idea. Us time!" And Crowley's like, "Just us. Not you."

G: "Not you"! [laughs] It's so mean. I would have let Muriel hang out with me. [laughing] I would have. C: I would not. I would be losing my entire mind. G: I would bring Muriel, but, like, the whole time, Muriel would be like, on another table. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Slay! [C: For real.]

C: Like, "Muriel, there's a rule that there can only be two people per table at the Ritz. Don't look over there at that family." [G laughs] And Muriel's like, "Okay, sure, I can explore the bookshop." And Crowley is like, "You need to go." [laughing] They thought that they were gonna fuck raw on every single surface of the bookshop. Though, okay, I mean, in all seriousness, it's more that like, Crowley hasn't been alone with Aziraphale in a while because of the ball and the attack, and also the bookshop, which is Crowley's favorite place in the world and has for the last four years been a refuge for them and a place where they could, if alone with Aziraphale has been invaded by Jim for a week, so like, obviously, once all this plot stuff is over, it's like, "I want me and Aziraphale’s relationship to return to status quo, and I want this place that I would like to be my home, maybe, to return to status quo." Ugh. Sorry, Crowley!

G: Also, Muriel is a reminder of the stress that happened within this week.

C: Yeah, I mean, Muriel was the one who was like, "If they make a bad report, Aziraphale is gonna get Booked of Lifed." Not that Crowley gives a shit but- Okay, sequester! But yes. Muriel says, "Okay, sure. But can I take a book? They're like people, only portable," which is fun. What a fun thing to say! And Crowley tosses them The Crow Road by Iain Banks, which I don't know anything about, tells them that they'll like it, and they head out. - G: We go to the coffee shop, [C groans] and Maggie and Nina are there, and, like, Nina is serving, you know, coffee to the line of people who are there, and Maggie is just in the back. What even? [C: I don't know.] Earlier, we see Maggie like, holding up a carton of milk at the oat milk request that the Metatron gives, but I feel like Nina can figure that out. [C laughs] And I don't know. I've never worked food, so like, I don't know how difficult it is to manage like, the back of a cafe, but I feel like having another person there who doesn't know what to do is just worse than just being by yourself. [C: That could be true.] So like, get rid of Maggie.

C: But there's been like- it's a really long line. There've been people waiting outside. Like, it's it's busier than usual, so I get wanting to have someone to pass you stuff from the back instead of like, [G: Going there yourself.] you have to walk back and get it each time. But okay, Nina does have an employee. [G: This is true!] Like, we saw this person packing up at the end of 2.01. Where'd they go?

G: They got fired. [C: So true.] They saw Nina's very, very, very deranged looking text application and were like, "Okay, I'm quitting. [both laugh] I don't wanna do this anymore. Weird."

C: Yeah. No, in fact, Nina makes all her employees download that text app [G laughs] because it's the only one she has. And like, they couldn't stand it anymore.

G: Exactly. All of them quit after a week. [C laughs] Basically, what's happening here is Maggie is telling Nina like, [C laughing] "Wwe should make them say to each other-" like, whatever. I mean, we see, like, "We have to tell them," and Nina's like, "No, I mean, what good will it do?" But like, you know. Maggie gets to convince her. And then they go to the bookshop. [C: Why? Why is this any of this?] Who do they GAF? [C: Why?] The thing is, I understand that gossip culture is like, big and real, and like, people talk. People know things. People probably know more things than you think they do. But like, the whole point of gossip culture is people leave you alone, right? Like, they talk behind your back and leave you alone.

C: I guess. Sometimes they laugh behind their hands as you pass, maybe.

G: Yeah, but they don't go up to you and are like [C: Yeah, "Just talk to each other."], "You should fuck raw in the street." [C: Jesus Christ.] What is this? Why? Why?

C: It's just- if this was played more as a like a- 'Cause they open with like, "It's shitty that you're messing around in our lives." If this was played as a like, "Here's payback. Take that. How does that feel?" like, it would feel kind of weird, but I would understand it more.

G: Maybe I just fundamentally DGAF as a person about like, other people's love lives. But I just-

C: No, yeah. All I do is go around telling everyone to break up, regardless of the healthiness and joy of their relationship.

G: Break up, exactly. [laughs] Anyone comes up to me complaining about anything in their relationship, I just go, "Have you considered breaking up?" [C laughs] So yeah. Mybe Maggie and Nina are just fundamentally different from us. [C: Maybe so.] Due to the fact that they have no personality whatsoever.

C: I just- they both almost died. They haven't slept in a whole day. They almost died trying to defend Maggie's completely useless landlord, [G laughs] and now they're like, "We have to help him with his love life." Whatever. Maybe Aziraphale’s their poor little meow meow.

G: Another thing. Nina only met Crowley like, the other day. [C: A few- yeah, basically. Yeah.] Maggie knows Crowley already. Can we assume that? [C: I don't know. I mean, Maggie and Aziraphale are closer. So like, maybe, like, Maggie has more insight on their relationship than Nina does. [C: Maybe.] 'Cause like, looking at what we see, that they see this episode, I mean, this season of Aziraphale and Crowley, it's like why would they think they're in love? [C: I don't know.] Okay, so the thing is, first off, first off, why would they think they're in love? Number two is like, I mean, like, Crowley, does deny the whole relationship thing with Aziraphale, but, like, if that happened- I don't know. Maybe this is like, a universe where homophobia doesn't exist on Earth, only in Heaven and Hell [C laughs], but like, I don't know, the whole like, if Crowley was like, "No, we're not together," I would just assume like, "Oh, these people are closeted" or something. C: But like, Aziraphale acts like he does. [both laugh] G: Well, the closet is glass! [C: Yeah.] I don't know. Other than "Why would they care?" it's like, "Why would they know enough to care?" C: Yeah. Why would they think that they have communication issues? They didn't watch Season 1.

G: You know, Nina seeing Aziraphale and Crowley banter on the street and being like, "Oh, they have been together a long time now," like, that's reasonable. But their analysis of their relationship, like, "Oh, Crowley, you're the one who's dejected and depressed and suicidal [C laughing] and like, Aziraphale is the one who believes in good in the world." and like, what? Where are you getting this? [C: Yeah, what is this?] Who told you this? That's a lie, they're lying to you! C: [laughs] Yeah! What- I have no clue. I really have no clue. I have no clue. Yeah.

G: I don't know. I have no idea what anything is about. We go to the bookshop, and Crowley is fixing up the place! [C: Yeah.]

C: And the first thing that she does is cover up the Heaven sigil with the rug.

G: Yeah. And then like, fix the like, shelves that have been curtained off and also like, just move around. I don't know if this is like, just because of the way the light is whatever whatever, but like, when the first time Crowley moves the chair, dust like, gets kicked up from the carpet. And I was like, "Good lord! Does Aziraphale ever clean this place?" [C laughs] Do you think Aziraphale knows what a vacuum is? Probably not. [C: No. No.] Like, I think one day, Crowley shows up with a vacuum, and Aziraphale’s like, "What is this monstrosity?" [C laughs] So fucking true.

C: Yeah, I mean, Aziraphale can just miracle it. I mean, Crowley's currently miracle cleaning it.

G: Yeah, I suppose so. This place has black mold. [laughs] I'm 100% sure this bookshop has black mold. Well.

C: Yeah. Regular customers are gonna file a class action lawsuit. I really like how Crowley adjusts the chair. 'Cause it's the nice red plush one that Aziraphale has for his desk [G: Yeah.] that he turns around when there's company, like with Muriel in 2.03. She like, pushes it back to the desk and then just sort of like, sighs, and then turns it back around. And it's like- what is it? Checks her watch, looks worried, and then flops down in it. And I don't know if the turning the chair back around thing is like, "I anticipate, like, the two of us, like, sitting and talking for a bit before we go to the Ritz," or if it's just like a "Oh, it's been a while, and I'm worried. I actually want this chair back so I can sit in it and be morose." Either way, like, aww.

G: For me, it's like, "So that I can look at the door." [C: Mm. Yeah.] Because you can sit on the chair and be morose, facing, like, you know, the desk. But like- C: Yeah, but it's like, that's Aziraphale's desk. Like, I don't think I'd feel comfortable sitting at Aziraphale’s desk G: - like that? Yeah, okay, I understand. That's where he keeps his stuff and everything. [C: Mm-hm.] That's where he keeps the like, fake papers he pretends to be reading [C laughs] when they have a fight, and Crowley comes back. [C: Exactly.] It's cute. Also, this is the scene, because, like, as Crowley sits, the light is like, streaming through the window directly to his face, and like, this is the moment where I go, "Holy shit, the confession is gonna happen, like, under the warm London 9AM light." And I'm like, "It's Crover!" [laughs] [C: It really really is gonna be Crover.] I always imagined it to be at night [C: Oh.], for some reason. And like, because I feel like the last time we were at the bookshop at night- the one vividly in my memory. Like, not the last time as in in the timeline, like, last time in my memory, is like, really the one in 1941, right? And like, that one is like, they were hidden by like, the night, but also, they were being spied on and everything, you know? [C: Yeah.] And this one is like, nobody else is looking. And like, you know, it's the fact that it's the middle of the day, and it's like, I'm having this soul-bearing, very flaying myself open conversation with you under the morning light. Aww. 'Cause usually, you know, with stuff like this, you know, romance, whatever, I feel like, at least for me, personally, like, a lot of the talking happens at night [C: Yes.] because that's when you part, you know? So like, you talk it out, and then you part or whatever. I think that's where the phrase "You'll regret that in the morning comes from." Here, like, I think of it in like, Crowley's mind, and it's like the fact that this happens in the morning, and she'll just have to go through the rest of the day. [pained laugh] [C: Yeah.] I find that so miserable!

C: Yeah. They thought that they were going to tell Aziraphale, and then they were going to go get breakfast and spend the rest of the day together. [G: Yeah.] [laughing] I'm actually crying, like, already! [both laughing]

G: Yeah. Okay. Do you get what I mean? Like, in my head, I'm like, if it happened at night, you can go like, "Well, that's horrible." And then you can go to sleep, and then you wake up the next morning, and you're like, "That happened, but whatever. [C laughs] This is a new day." And it's like, Crowley hopping into that car, like, there's going to be light here for like, the rest of the day, I don't know, until 4PM, maybe. [laughs] I don't know. I'm not sure. [C laughs] My understanding of how day and night in the other, not tropical areas of the world has completely been decimated. [C: Yeah.] But the rest of the day, he'll just thinking about this, and it's like, all those hours, you can't even tell yourself like, "Whatever. It happened yesterday." 'Cause it didn't. It happened this morning. It's crazy. It's such a small detail, but like, I don't know. I really like that this season happens mostly- like, the present-day stuff, the only night scene that we get is Aziraphale in "The Hitchhiker." [C: That's tr-] I don't know. Maybe I'm completely lying. Maybe that's a lie and I'm lying to you. C: I mean, the ball happens at night. G: That's true! Well, that was a lie. I was lying to you, as we've said. This scene happening in the morning, it's important to me. It's important to me. [C: Yeah.] It's so like, you know. It's so Frank O'Hara- what's that? What's that part of that poem? [C: Oh, fucking- you mean "Having a Coke With You?" The one that goes like, "The way our smiles take on in front of people and statuary," and like, "it's hard to believe when I'm with you that there can be anything as still as solemn as unpleasantly definitive as statuary when right in front of it in the warm New York 4 o'clock light we are drifting back and forth each other like a tree breathing through its spectacles," and like, that part that, like, you know, that's the line I was like, doing a beat-for-beat recreation for earlier, like, "in the warm London 9AM late." [C: Uh-huh.] But yeah. They're here, and they're like, I don't know. Crowley thought that they would just go out and dine at the Ritz and have a marvelous experience that they're going to tell each other about. And then it didn't fucking happen!

C: Yeah. [G: It's Crover. Well, anyway, time to go to the annoying-] Something else that's important to me about this scene [G: Okay.] to me is that doesn't take her sunglasses off. Like, Crowley's alone. G: I mean, the light is right there. [laughs] I wouldn't either. C: Yeah. But like [G: No, I get what you mean, yeah.] I wonder- G: Like, does it only resume being safe when [both] Aziraphale comes back? [laughs] C: Yeah. [G: That's a crazy thing to say. It's so corny! I can't believe that I even said it. Yeah, they do-] No, but literally, it is, though! [G laughs] Yeah. Yeah. It's Crover. It's so fucking Crover. G: It has never been more Crover. C: It's about to be!

G: Yeah. Well, Nina and Maggie show up. [C: Boo!] We see Maggie's shoes, which are wonderful. And then that's the only wonderful thing about this scene. [laughs]

C: I mean, I do like how they open, but then they go right into bullshit.

G: You know, they come in, and they ask where Aziraphale is. He's not here, obviously. You know, Nina just starts going like, "Oh, like, you and your partner have been messing with our lives." Meggy goes, "We're not a game. We're real people. You can't just like, pair us up for your amusement." And Crowley is still sitting in the chair - like, how you described, like, in a way that if your boss saw you, the boss would like, eye you [C laughs] very, very, very badly - sitting like that just goes, "Oh, but, you know, you were crying, and Nina needed rescuing!"

C: Yeah, no but- Okay, do you have things to say about that?

G: That's not true. That's a lie. You're lying to them. Like, that's not the reason why you were pairing them up at all.

C: Yeah, [laughs] it was due to how Aziraphale was gonna get Booked of Lifed.

G: Yeah. And I don't know, like, turning it into this like, "Oh, but we're trying to help out the humans" thing. It's like, if it was that, maybe it would have been interesting. But it's not. And also, it wasn't interesting. So like, stop lying to me. Don't make- like, you know, I know this is not the case. And I know that this is like, Crowley telling them, and it's not like, Crowley can say, "Oh, yeah [both laugh], you know, we were trying to get you two together for our own personal, very self-centered agenda." Honestly, I feel like given how much Maggie wants to help Aziraphale, if he just went up to like, Maggie and Nina and was like- Like, showed them like, some magic that was real and was like," Okay, I'm an angel, and the other angels are gonna fucking kill me unless you guys kiss in front of this one person. Can you just do that?" Like, I think they could.

G: Yeah, and put them in a fake dating situation that may or may not be interesting. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, yeah. But okay, I mean my main thought about this- Okay, first off, it's so weird to think about Nina being in a toxic relationship as like, being in need of rescuing by Maggie. That's pretty crazy.

G: Oh, I didn't read it as Maggie is rescuing Nina. I read this as Crowley and Aziraphale rescuing Nina. But yeah.

C: From the toxic relationship via getting with Maggie, yeah.

G: [laughs] Yeah, that's that's a crazy thing to say. I didn't even think about it.

C: Okay, well, I thought about it very long and very hard because if this is how Crowley views relationships, [G makes pained sounds] I think that you could definitely think Crowley is thinking that they're rescuing rescuing Aziraphale from Heaven. [G makes pained sound] I mean, and the use of the word rescue- like, Aziraphale says last episode, that like, "Oh, but like, Crowley, is always so happy when he rescues me," right? Like, that's the word that Aziraphale uses? [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I think that's purposeful. I think that this is how Crowley views the two of them. And like, I mean, Nina has a rebuttal, and the rebuttal also applies to Aziraphale. Like- [G: How?] [G laughs] I mean, his relationship with Heaven just ended, and like, that is sort of what is preventing the two of them from being happy right away.

G: Aww. Yeah, okay, I'm having thoughts! [laughing] No, because like- [laughing] I'm tearing up! [both laughing]

C: You good? [G: It's Crover!] I can't believe we already both cried, and we haven't even gone into anything!

G: [laughing] We're the crying brothers! [pained sounds] No, because- because remember, like, that phone call scene in Episode 4 where like, I talk about, how like, Aziraphale’s like, faith in Heaven like, gets, you know, decimated, and then the first thing he does is call Crowley! And it's like, "I am putting all my like, the belief and faith and hope that I have in Heaven onto you!" And like, a lot of that faith in Heaven that Aziraphale has is about like, faith that Heaven is doing good, and therefore, "If I am following like, Heaven's orders, and I am good." And for Aziraphale, that's important. Like, it's important to him that he is good. And then, like, you know, we start Season 1, and [C: Season 2]- Yeah, we start Season 2, and one of Aziraphale's first words to Crowley regarding like, that whole thing is like, "Oh, but like, it's nice to have someone to tell about the good deeds I'm doing to reaffirm that they're good" or whatever. [C: yeah.] And it's like, yeah! Maybe this is their miserable Alpha Centauri life? [C: Yeah, their miserable rebound whatever moment.] You can't like, have one person be your basis of your self-satisfaction and your moral high ground based on one person only. [C: Yeah.] I mean, it was crazy in Season 1, but like, that's because, you know, it was a tough situation, they're in like, a high pressure situation, but you can't live your day-to-day life like that. [C: Yeah.] And perhaps in four years, that's what happened, you know? Aziraphale had to live his day-to-day life. [C: Yeah. Just with faith in Crowley? Yeah.] That's crazy! [laughing] Crazy. Yeah. Well, anyway. I mean, we're about to get annoying, so it's fine. [C: Oh, yeah, that's true.] So yeah, Nina says, like, "Well, my relationship just ended, and I wasn't ready to start a new one. So I'll just be a mess. I'll be a rebound mess. I can't start seeing Maggie." And then she goes, "But when I'm ready, I hope she'll be there." [C: Eww!] Why? [C: Why?] Why would you hope?

C: Yeah, when you're ready, you hope that you can get on the apps and find literally any other person.

G: Exactly. And she goes, "But there isn't any guarantee." And Maggie, like, just goes, "There is." [C: Boo!] Boo! [C: Boo!] And Nina goes, "You're not helping, angel." and I'm like-

C: [hitting hands on table] Let's stop. Let's stop. It's- No, it's Crover. It's over. [G laughs] Crover is for good things. This one, it's done, we're done. Goodbye. This is so stupid!

G: We don't have anything else to talk about! You have liberty to go. [both laugh]

C: Literally, don't even bother. [G laughs] Like, I- So you remember how I said the first time that I watched through Season 2, 17 minutes from the end of this episode, I stopped and I said, "I don't wanna do this anymore." [G laughs] And I went to my phone, and I deleted the Tumblr app off of my phone, and I went on my laptop onto Tumblr so that I could put every single Good Omens-related tag ever [G laughing] into the filtered tags so I would never have to see another say thing about this awful, despicable, terribly-written show ever again in my life? [G laughing] But then after like, a half hour break, I was able to press play again? So like- guess how many minutes- that was 17 min from the end when I did that, right? Guess how many minutes from the end this line was? [G laughing] 17. [G: Good lord! Ah!] That night was a bit of a haze. I don't know if it was this line specifically, [G laughs] but I think it may as well have been.

G: The thing is like, I mean, I've mentioned this last episode, like, this scene, after the first time I watched it, like, when I watched it again, I like, sincerely covered my ears when this scene was happening. [laughs] Which is still so funny to me because I wasn't like, doing it intentionally or anything. [C: Mm-hm.] I was just like, you know when you're a child, and you're like, "I don't like the loud noise," and then you cover your ears? Like, that literally. I don't like the noise that they're doing [C laughs], such as Nina calling Maggie "angel." Why even? Why even? [C: I don't know.] First of all, angel as a pet name. I don't like it. I don't like it. [C: It's not a good one.] Like, "my angel"? "My angel"? Like, fine. Whatever. [C: I still don't-] But like, "angel"? Just the word angel? Whatever. And like, the reason why is because Angel is a common name here in the Philippines, so like, it's weird to like, call someone a name that's just a name, you know? But like, other than that, it's like, what does it even mean? [C laughs] [C: I don't- it's so bad.] I know most pet names don't mean anything, but like, it's just annoying to me on a personal level and on every level thereof.

C: If Maggie was the one to say it, I would be a little less annoyed because she says, "You're an angel" in 2.01. So like, it's established that this is a thing that she [G: Thinks, yeah.] could or would say. But like, it feels- I don't this doesn't feel like what Nina's flavor of pet name would be, and it's clearly just her saying it so they can really hammer home the fucking parallels that they already hammered home so hard.

G: So like, in this situation, Crowley is Nina? Is that what's being- C: Their analysis of their situation is that Crowley is Nina and "Mr. Fell" is Maggie, yeah. G: Why even? [C: I don't know.] That's not true. That's a lie. They're lying to you. C: Just 'cause of their hair colors. [G laughs] Who knows?

G: No, but like, other than that, like, I feel like having Maggie be the one to call Nina "angel" is like, not doing a one-to-one. And okay, I think we have mentioned this before, kind of, a little bit, but like, the problem, really, this season is that every character- like, every relationship has to compare to Aziraphale and Crowley. [C: Yeah.] But like, the thing is like, you can't just transfer that dynamic into like, people who didn't experience it, and like, have it have the same effect. Like, that's just not how it works. And like, a way to do it is to have people who, like, live different lives and like, be in love in different ways and like, find their love, to be like, "It's not the exact same thing, because it will never be the exact same thing, but, like, elements of it are present in the way we love each other." You know, it's not like, a direct one-to-one. Why is it that, like, the only way to like, reflect on yourself is to have a literal mirror in front of you? You know what I mean? There are other ways to look inwards. Like, if Maggie is the one who called Nina "angel," like, it makes you think, the audience, that, "Ooh, is Maggie the Crowley parallel?" And then, like, you know, it recontextualizes the situation. You're able to see what elements of Crowley's personality are present in Maggie and what elements of personality is present in Nina and their situations. How does it align when you put it in that different direction? And you are able to have, like, a more robust understanding of both Aziraphale and Crowley and Nina and Maggie, in theory, if Nina and Maggie were well-written characters [C: Yeah.] and have a well-written relationship. But like, I don't know. There are ways to do this that are not abhorrently bad.

C: Though, I mean, don't get me wrong, no matter what they did, I would hate it and be calling for blood. So.

G: I mean, like, at this moment, at this moment, yeah. But, like, you know. It's just- I mean, we've complained to fucking end last episode, but like- [C: I mean, it is pretty bad.] Just write- just hire an editor. I don't know. Hire someone to ruthlessly critique your work?

C: Does he have- If he has an editor, fire them and get a new one. And if he doesn't have one, get one.

G: I don't remember which interview this was, but like, I watched an interview with David Tennant and Michael Sheen where like, they were asked like, "What stuff did you improv with like, Aziraphale and Crowley?" [C: Oh, they're like, "It's not my place."] Yeah. And they were like, "It's not my place." And like, I think David Tennant said, like, "The last thing you want to do when you're like, working with, like, someone like Neil Gaiman it is to interrupt his like, writing process and thoughts." [C: Well, I think you should.] And "He's like, such a genius," [C laughs] and, like, you probably should have. Look at what Michael Sheen did. Michael Sheen imbued that role with so much complexity just by doing the eyebrow raise. [laughs] You know what I mean?

C: Yeah, no, I mean, I think David Tennant's right about himself, though. Like, David Tennant's fucking improv this season was the fez. [G laughs] So like, yeah, you should have kept that shit to yourself, David Tennant. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. But like, let Michael Sheen run around in the wild, but only as Aziraphale. [laughs] Not in any other way, shape, or form. Nina provides [C: Some utter bullshit.] an analysis of the situation. And what this feels like to me is you know when you're like, talking to your guidance counselor, like, in high school, when you had to do it once, you know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] And it's like, this person who like, doesn't know you, has never known you, will never know you. You know, you talk about like, they ask you like, "What career do you wanna have?" And you say this. And they talk about- maybe you've taken a quiz prior on, like, what ideal careers you should have in your life, and then they start like, trying to do an analysis of you based on like, what you answered in that quiz that you literally just answered A A A A on. So like, [C laughs] this feels like that. Maggie- Nina is doing that to us right now, to Aziraphale and Crowley right now.

C: If someone posted this meta on Tumblr, I would consider blocking them. [laughs] G: What do you mean? Like, Nina- C: Yeah, if someone this on Tumblr as a character analysis of Aziraphale and Crowley, I would block them. Like- G: I thought you were talking about my meta of like, "Nina is acting like a guidance counselor." I was like, "What? What is offensive to you?" [both laugh] But literally.

C: You're fine. I'm not gonna block you on Tumblr. "As soon as they unblock me, the podcast is back on." [G laughing] But yeah.

G: Literally. Well, her analysis is that Crowley is, quote, "the hard bitten one that can't trust anyone ever again," [C: What?] which, like, again, projection. Like, it's just, they're projecting back and forth on each other on things that are not even true!

C: I mean, you know, Nina deserves to project if she's gotten projected on so much, but they frame it like it's real.

G: Yeah, this is like, direct thing with like, Crowley telling Nina, like, "For once in your life, trust somebody," right?

C: What are Crowley's trust issues. That's not a thing I think of regarding Crowley. Not trusting Jim is reasonable, I think.

G: Yeah. Also, like, we're talking about Aziraphale here. Like, I don't think "Crowley does not trust Aziraphale" is a reasonable take to have. [C: Yeah.] If anything, we've seen Aziraphale not trust Crowley in Season 1, but like, it's very obvious that that's not the case anymore in Season 2, you know?

C: And I feel like Aziraphale generally does trust Crowley. I mean, I'm just thinking about "A Companion to Owls" and the "Quite sure."

G: [pained sound] Yeah. You know, we make that sound so much. I have the soundwave memorized. Like, I'm looking at the edit, and I'm like, "And in that part we go [pained sound]" because I recognize it immediately. [C laughs] So that's her analysis of Crowley. And the thing is, again, this is in context of the relationship. And it's like, why? Why? Why? How does this relate to them like, not talking to each other? How?

C: Crowley is so emotionally open. Like, Crowley trust to Aziraphale with her heart like, every single day! Like, what is this about?

G: And then, okay, her analysis of Aziraphale is, "He is the soft one who still believes in magic and people being basically good and all that."

C: Huh? Does Crowley not believe in people being good? Aziraphale doesn't give a shit about people have the time.

G: Aziraphale has no belief on people of any kind.

C: We watched "The Resurrectionist" where he said, "Some people are fundamentally wicked, and she is wicked." [G laughs] [G: Yeah. I don't know.] Like, what is this referring to?

G: Yeah. And like, not only is like, bad analysis of the situation. It's also like- [C: Bad analysis of Maggie?] There's no basis to it. No, there's no basis to it. [C: Yeah.] Oh my god! You saying that just reminded me that this is supposed to be like, a Maggie thing also. [C: Yeah.] It's a bad analysis of Maggie!

C: Does she still believe in magic and people being basically good? I mean, she thought that her very nice gay landlord was gonna kick her out. [G: Yeah.] That's not really having a lot of faith in people being good. What's the magic she still believes in? What is Nina on about?

G: I don't know. I mean, Crowley asked, "Why are you telling me this? [C laughs] I don't understand." And like, yeah, me, too, buddy. [C: Literally. Samesies.] Literally, why are you saying this on my screen right now? I don't understand. And like, Maggie goes, "That's why she's telling you. Because you don't understand." And it's like, what?

C: [laughing] And it's so annoying! She's like, doing like, a bit of like, a condescending voice on it, and it's like, "Well, can you explain this to me, then? 'Cause it doesn't make any sense."

G: Yeah. And then she goes, "Because you and Mr. Fell don't ever talk to each other." They don't even know that! You don't even know that! How'd you know that? How'd you know know that? You don't even know that!

C: [laughing] I don't know. "You guys don't even talk to each other because you went to Heaven while he was battling them, the demons, and you didn't even text him!" Like, what are you talking about?

G: It's like like they- Because, I mean, Maggie, when did Maggie even see them ever together interact with each other?

C: I don't know. I don't know. And it's not like she and Aziraphale are close enough for her to be like, a confidante regarding their relationship. Like, this is like, this is fully just from observation. And like, what has she even seen?

G: Yeah, exactly. So we don't even know. So we can't assume. We can assume that she's seen something, but like, maybe you should have told us that or shown us that if you want us to assume it. [C: Yeah.] Number two, like, Nina, she has only seen them talk. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] And like, again, like, the point is like, "You don't talk in the way that matters." You don't know that, though! Outside of-

C: How dare you joke about talking in French to each other when you should be confessing your deep love at every moment! [G laughs] Like, what?

G: Literally, you want them to be fucking raw in the street? Is that it? [C laughing] You want them to be fucking raw in Give Me Death or Give Me Coffee? Like, Jesus Christ. Like, they're outside! What do you want them to be? What do you want them to be? What do you want them to be?

C: Did she overhear their whole Gabriel conversation where Aziraphale wouldn't say directly what was happening in the shop? Do you think that's what she means?

G: I mean, that's about a different thing. It's about Gabriel.

C: Yeah, but I guess it is like a "you guys don't have a direct communication style" sort of thing.

G: That's one conversation.

C: Yeah. I mean, I also love to judge people and draw incorrect conclusions based off of like, five seconds of hearing them [G laughs], but like, [G: Would you sit them down?] I wouldn't confront them about it. No, exactly.

G: Would you sit them down and tell them, "Here's a beat-by-beat analysis of your entire life and personality and experiences." [C laughs] Jesus. [C: Probably not. Probably not.] You probably should. [both laugh] [C: The world would be a better place!] The thing is, if you want another couple in your life to break up, [both laugh] just do what Nina did. It probably will work! [C: So true.] And then Crowley says the line that you don't like, where he goes like, "We talk all the time. We've been talking for millions of years." First of all, why'd you say millions of years? [C: Yeah. You could just say thousands.] Literally, why? You could be like, "And Crowley's exaggerating because, like, it's not like these people know." I don't think Crowley would do that! I mean, even if Crowley was like, trying to be like, telling these people in an exaggerated way that like, "Oh, we've been talking for so long." You can just go like, "We've been talking for thousands of years," and it'll have pretty much the same effect. [C: Yeah.] Does he think that "These people live 200 years, so like, if I say thousands-" what's the situation?

C: I- Okay, some people think that he's counting the [G: Angel?] Before the Beginning time, but I don't like it, so I choose not to believe it.

G: No, first of all, their first meeting, in the before time or whatever [C: Yeah, Aziraphale says-] [overlapping] it's gonna be 6000 years. So like, that doesn't even- that's not true. That's a lie. They're lying to you. [C: Yeah. They are.] And, you know, Crowley is like, "Oh, we've been talking for millions of years, blah blah blah blah blah blah."

C: She is being so silly goofy the whole time. Like, the way that they move their head on "blah blah blah blah blah," like, I wuv you. I wuv you, Anthony Janthony Crowley.

G: And also someone who is a great enthusiast of the term "blah blah blah," I love this tremendously. She goes, "I say something brilliant. He says something unintentionally funny back. It's great!" [C: Boo.] which you've said that you don't like.

C: How do you feel about it?

G: I feel like if Aziraphale heard this, Aziraphale would not be pleased. I don't think anyone, like, upon hearing this piece said about them by someone that they value very much as a person would appreciate being talked about like this.

C: Yeah. I agree. I mean, Crowley is being like, facetious here, and like, unwilling to engage in emotional vulnerability. I think that this is not what they mean that deeply. [G: Of course. Of course.] But it still- I don't- just don't do it! Just be nice!

G: Even if it's like, "I'm not engaging in this conversation in any way, shape, or form," which is completely reasonable-

C: You don't have to make yourself look really good, like, in comparison. [G: Yeah.] You could just be like, "We just both say bullshit at each other."

G: I don't know. Is that even true? I don't think Aziraphale is unintentionally funny.

C: When does Crowley say something brilliant like, ever?

G: Crowley never says anything brilliant. And like, I still think "What is that? Some kind of porridge?" [both laugh] is one of the funniest things ever said in the show, so like, shut the fuck up, Crowley.

C: Yeah. [laughs] And you're saying that was intentional?

G: The "What? Some kind of porridge?" Yeah! It was obviously a joke. I mean, the "It is a bit damp," like, that is unintentional, I feel, and also extremely funny. But like, I think the "What is that? Some kind of porridge?" is like, some snark. It's a snark. Maybe it's not like, "I'm joking to be funny," but like, it's a joke to be snarky.

C: I- I thought he was actually confused.

G: I mean, just look at his face in that scene. He's like, offended that Crowley is saying all this.

C: I mean, he's just offended 'cause Crowley's here on demonic business.

G: Do you think Aziraphale is earnestly asking, "Is that some kind of porridge in that scene?" [C laughs] Obviously not. Obviously, Aziraphale is saying like, "I don't know what the fuck that is. [C: Okay, yeah.] Is it some kind of porridge?" So like, you know what I mean. Yeah.

C: I feel like I heard that there is a type of porridge with a word that sounds sort of like foment. But like, yeah, I mean, I guess he could just be doing a joke regarding that. Like, he doesn't know what foment means, but he will joke about a word that sounds similar. Okay, sure. Fine.

G: Yeah. God. Are you agreeing with Crowley that Aziraphale is just saying unintentionally funny things back?

C: I think sometimes, Aziraphale's intentionally funny, and sometimes, Aziraphale's unintentionally funny, but I think that is not the main basis of the relationship, and most importantly, Crowley's never said anything brilliant. [G laughs]

G: Exactly. Everyone's in a fucking armchair psychologist and doing a very bad at it right now.

C: Yeah, I mean, Crowley is in an armchair.

G: Crowley's an armchair everything. Socialist, [C laughs] psychologist, everything.

C: Everything everything. Does Crowley think that she's brilliant? [G laughs] Like, that's really funny, babe!

G: Crowley does have a tendency to like, think like, "I am the right in the situation."

C: Yeah. And also that, like, they're so cool. Though they're honestly a really good fellow- What is the post? You know the post?

G: What are you talking about? Oh, the-

C: "Crowley may be cool, but he's a really good fellow, so we shouldn't hold it against him." being what Aziraphale thinks about that. [G: Exactly.] I mean, we do have the whole, like, you know, "Hated by Heaven, like, loathed by Hell. How will our hero cope?" thing. But that's posturing. Like, that's just her being a silly goofy gal.

G: I mean, the thing is like, as I've said, Crowley is frequently painted, like, you know, Crowley is frequently like, "I'm right! Just agree with me, Aziraphale. Just agree with me! I'm right!" And then, like, the narrative rewards them by making them right. [C: Yeah.] Maybe Crowley does think, like, "I'm the brilliant one. I'm the one who's right, always."

C: [sighs] Well, I don't like that. [G: I don't like it too.] I think this is a show-specific thing. It is not a book thing. [G: In the book? Yeah.] Neil Gaiman, answer for your writing errors.

G: Your erreurs. [C laughs] [C: Yeah, even.] I need to stop making that joke, but it's literally so fun.

C: And this season, also, as we've mentioned, makes a point of stupidifying Aziraphale so much. [G: Yeah.] So it seems to be like, "Yeah, that is their dynamic."

G: The stupid one and the one who's, what? Right?

C: I guess? Well, I don't like that very much. I hope Season 3 fixes this. [G: Yeah.] Crowley does respect Aziraphale, right? Like, right? Right?

G: It's because fucking Neil Gaiman decided that Crowley is the one who's going to be just like him for real. [both groan] Okay, the thing- what I was gonna say is like, I think in Season 1, in terms of like, respecting Aziraphale, like, in Season 1, Crowley always engages in situations as like, "I'm trying to convince you. I'm trying to convince you," right? But like, that's because, I mean, we see in the first episode, like, Aziraphale does want to stop the Apocalypse, but like, can't. So like, Crowley has to convince him in some way that like, still follows like, Heavenly orders. [C: Yeah.] I think that can be a way to look at the stuff that we haven't seen, you know. Like, maybe a lot of their past stuff is like, Crowley trying to convince Aziraphale of like, "This is good," and Aziraphale being like, "Oh, but Heaven," blah blah blah, and Crowley being like, "And here's a way to make it so that you're still following Heavenly orders" but whatever whatever. The times we have seen that kind of dynamic or kind of like, variation of it is like, in Noah's Ark, right? We see it kind of in Job, but like, the whole thing about Job is that even Aziraphale cannot justify the situation anymore. So like, turns his back on the Heavenly orders.

C: And Aziraphale went to stop Crowley like, solo, without any convincing, yeah.

G: Yeah. And then we could have seen it in 1827. That scene could be like, Aziraphale being like, "I understand her plights, but like, she's gonna go to Hell. Like, we have to stop her from going to Hell." Which I think could have been a more interesting way to do that episode. [C: I agree.] Like, both both of them trying to work out the way to like, have Elspeth have enough to live, but also like, not go to Hell. Like, balancing out morality.

C: But I think if both of them felt that way, it would've been really easy to just [G: Give her money? Yeah.] give her ninety guineas and then, like, jet, yeah.

G: Yeah. But you understand, right? [C: Yeah. Yeah, I do.] If we just take Season 1, Episode 1, if you go like, "Oh, that's how their dynamic usually works," I think it's reasonable for Crowley to keep acting like that's how the dynamic is, even when Aziraphale is very solidly not under Heaven's grasp anymore. [C: Uh-huh.] It's just like, a habit now that like, "Oh, but like, Aziraphale doesn't really think that. We just have to find a way for Aziraphale to actually do what is actually the thing he's thinking." But, like, now, Aziraphale is free to do the things he's thinking, and like, when what Crowley wants and what Aziraphale wants are not in tandem, don't align, Crowley's tendency to be is to be like, "Yeah, but I'm still right." And it's like, whatever whatever. There could be that aspect in the "I'm the brilliant one." [C: Sure, yeah.] But I think I'm just trying to find something. I don't know! [C: Yeah. Yeah.] I mean, that's more like, a recommendation in how to [laughs] make it fit instead of like, trying to make it fit with what we are currently given. But yeah.

C: Yeah, 'cause what we are currently given isn't looking very good on the respect front, I would say. So, [groans]. Someone fix this next season.

C: Neil Gaiman, you know, what? I don't have any professional or academic experience in writing, but like, I have a great experience in being a complainer and loving to complain. So you can give me the script, and I'll just go "This is bad because" blah blah blah. "I'm complaining about this one because" blah blah blah. And then you can read it and consider my complaints. [C: Yeah. I would also like to edit the scripts.] I'll do it- I was gonna say "I'll do it for free," but like, I probably wouldn't. You have to pay me some. But I'll do it! [laughs] You won't pay me that much. The living- the fucking minimum wage here in the Philippines is so low. You can extort my labor. [C laughing] It's fine. It's not extort. It's [both] exploit. That's a different thing, I think. Yeah, you can exploit my labor. See? I just corrected myself! [C: Yeah, exactly.] I can do that for you, too! [both laughing]

Maggie goes, "You never say what you're really thinking. That was all we needed. [C: When? What happened?] That's what you two need as well."

C: When did you ever say what you were really thinking? What is she talking about? Are they referring to an off-screen conversation? Like, what are they talking about?

G: The implication here is they had the conversation in the party.

C: "I'm not afraid of hard work?" That's the conversation?

G: No, this is the thing. How it works is like, prior to the party, they're not going to be together at all. They don't even like each other. And then, like, we have the party. They talk there, totally pointless and completely mind-baffling conversation, and then they go through the demons in the bookshop bit, and the moment we see them be heralded out of the bookshop into the coffee shop, and we see the immediate stuff that happens in coffee shop, right? Which is that Nina finally asks for help. And I say "finally" because I think it's supposed to like, be a culmination of an arc. [C: It is?] But it's literally not. So- I don't know. I mean, the way it's presented, it's like, "Oh, now she's asking for help," and it's like, okay.

C: She had an employee. That was help.

G: But like, if we are supposed to see this as like, a story that has some semblance of being well-written whatsoever [C laughs], like, that line of Nina going, "Oh, get me the milk" is supposed to be like, "Oh, we're gonna be here for each other, and you're gonna help me out or whatever." [C: Okay, sure.] In those sequence of events, there is no breathing room for a conversation at all.

C: Maybe while they were blasting those fire extinguishers, yeah. [laughs]

G: Were they talking to each other was Gabriel was zooming through that tunnel? When did they talk? When did they talk?

C: Never. Never. They're just saying random shit that has nothing to do with anything!

G: Yeah. And like, "That was all we needed." [C: For what?] [laughs] The thing is, any attempt to analyze this relationship is like, you're gonna come up with emptiness. Just 'cause there's just nothing.

C: Yeah. Send this relationship to Superhell.

G: Yeah. Needed for what? Needed to get together? You're not together. Needed to know that you want to get together? I don't think you do. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I don't think you do, and also, Aziraphale was the one who said what you were really thinking.

G: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know! And it's like, when Maggie did say what she was really thinking when they were imprisoned in that like, fucking coffee shop, that didn't go well. So like, obviously, there was situations where you should not say what you're really thinking. So how do you deal with that, Maggie? How'd you cope with that? [C laughs] [C: I don't know.] It's so horrible! "It's what you two need as well." Do you think like- obviously, what they need to do is talk to each other.

C: Yeah. They also have to listen, which I think is the part that they both skip later. [G: Yeah.] This scene sucks, but I am emo about how Crowley falls silent right after "You never say what you're really thinking" and does not talk again for the rest of the scene. Like, she is thinking.

G: When we get to the reaction shot later of Crowley just sitting there, like, just looking. [pained sound] I mean, it's just- I think it's a little bit like, odd to me that this is the thing [C: That does it?] that does it in. [C: Yeah, I agree.] I have been thinking about other ways to do it that doesn't involve Nina and Maggie because, fundamentally, as a person, I just don't want to involve them in anything. [C: Yeah.] A part of me was like, "Do you think it would work out with like, the same level of emotion-" I mean, for me, that's not really the question for me, because the emotions I felt were like, subpar watching this see in first time. Like, for you, do you think it would work out if, like, Crowley went into that conversation not attempting to confess and then confesses as like, a "No! But you can't do that because-" [C takes pained breath] Do you think that would work for you? [C: I- I mean, hm.] Or do you like the fact. Is that important to you that Crowley was gonna confess?

C: It is important to me, but I could do it the other way? Like, that would be fine with me, 'cause I mean I'm assuming we've had the Nina calling Aziraphale their partner on the street conversation already, so there's a little bit of lead-up, but I feel like it would feel like it's- I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I feel like it would have come out of nowhere. Like, I mean, it probably would have worked, 'cause last time their safety as as a unit is threatened, Crowley comes over and begs Aziraphale to fly off into the stars with her. [G: Yeah.] Like, this isn't that much of a ramp-up from that.

G: Yeah, this is basically like, "Fly off to the stars with me... forever." [laughs] That's the only difference! [C: Not a big deal.] Yeah, I feel like that's a reasonable thing to ask. [C: Yeah!] Completely reasonable. [both laugh] C: I mean, I'd do it with Crowley. G: No, I don't know. I've been thinking, like, there is an appeal. If, like, Nina and Maggie were just better, there would be an appeal to like, having an outsider look in and be like, "What the fuck is that about?" And like, Crowley realizing in that moment that- but the thing is like, it's like, extraneous! This doesn't need to happen. And over and over again, we talk about like, "This didn't need to happen" or like, "This doesn't matter." And every single time I say it, I think, "Oh, yeah? Coming from a Supernatural podcaster?" [both laugh] But like, the thing is like, this is a six-episode show. It's a limited series. It's not episodic. Like, if this was a sitcom, which I am a great purveyor of. Purveyor? What's a purveyor? It's someone who doles out, right? I don't dole out sitcoms. In fact, I also don't watch them. But like, I like the idea of Good Omens as a sitcom, which, I've mentioned this before, and I've claimed it as the reason why I like like 2.02 and 2.03. If it was like that, then having the nonsense shit happen is like, "That's fine." The point of those is mostly like, "You spend time with the characters," blah blah blah. But here, they are also obviously, like, attempting to tell a story, and we take so much time telling that story, and it doesn't even matter. What I'm trying to say here is like, if it was a different format of a show, then fine. But it's not. It's this format. Because, like, some stories really fit better into specific forms of media, and like, maybe you should have considered that, Neil Gaiman. [both laugh] [C: Maybe!] Maybe you should have been like, "Is the story that I want to tell for a limited series?" And went, "Nope, so let's make it something else." Or you should have went, "Nope! So let's turn it into something that will fit into a limited series." [C: Yeah.] Agh. I'm such a complainer. And this is why you should hire me as your official professional complainer. Yeah.

C: Yeah. This would not have been the thing that does it if Crowley just had friends ever. Like, you develop an immunity to "Just tell them how you really feel!" if you have friends. But this is like, a novel concept to Crowley 'cause Crowley never fucking talks to anyone. [G: No, exactly. Exactly.] Like, "What? You want me to- Oh my god! I never thought of that before!"

G: You would have thought about, Crowley, if you were friends with me, because I would have told you, "Either talk to him or just break up." [both laugh]

C: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah. If I was Crowley’s friend, I would probably tell them to break up with Aziraphale, like, middle of Season 1, so. [laughs] Perhaps it's good that we're not Crowley's friends.

G: If I was friends with Crowley and Crowley came to me and was like, [faux-teary] "And I told him that in the stars, I won't even think about him anymore!" And I was like, "Yeah, that's true. That's probably for the best. You should probably do that. [C laughing] Fly off into the stars and never think about her again." [both laughing]

C: For fucking real. I don't know. I'm a "Crowley confesses early, and Crowley confesses often" truther [G: Exactly.], so this just doesn't jive with with my beliefs. - C: The Metatron and Aziraphale conversation closes up. I guess they've been talking on the terrace of that French restaurant. Poor Justine. Crowley was also just sitting there. Do people just take seats in her restaurant to talk?

G: I feel like French restaurants are like, famous for like, people just sitting there for hours and hours, so maybe this is fine.

C: Maybe. Wouldn't you be in more need of like, only having tables for paying customers or whatever, then? I don't know. This isn't the US. So maybe people are like, nicer. [G: Yeah.] Aziraphale, he's looking kind of unsure, but also excited, and he's saying, "I don't know what to say." And the Metatron goes, "Well, then. Go and tell your friend the good news." [G makes pained sound] Okay. How did Aziraphale think this would go? I mean, well. But like, Crowley was gonna say "yippee!" and click her heels, and then they're gonna be off in that elevator?

G: I've been thinking this. I feel like Aziraphale is thinking here like, "This is like, a good thing I'm going to do." What does he think Crowley is going to say? I mean, like, they are in agreement most of the time that Heaven is bad.

C: They think that they're in agreement. I don't know if Aziraphale thinks that.

G: No, exactly. What Crowley thinks is like, "Heaven as an institution is bad." And what Aziraphale thinks is "Heaven is mismanaged." [C: Yeah.] They have told each other like, basically, what they think the other thinks is the same as what they think, but really, what they just agree on is like, "Heaven is bad right now," but, like, the specifics of how that badness manifests, they don't agree upon. [C: Yeah.] So like, I think Aziraphale goes into this thinking, like, "Oh, I'm going to tell Crowley that, like, there's a way to like, have good management in Heaven, and also, he can come with me while I do all that. Resolved!" Like, I think that's part of like, the thought process.

C: Huh. Sure. That makes sense. I'm just having difficulty wrapping my head around why.

G: Also, you have to remember, like, Aziraphale doesn't know that the Second Coming is here. [C: Yeah.] [pained sound] Do you think Crowley- Crowley doesn't know that. Crowley must fully think that Aziraphale is just like, "And I'm gonna be the one to lead the Second Coming."

C: I mean, Aziraphale recounts the entire conversation to them, though.

G: Only that part. Only that part! [C: That's true.] I don't think that's the entire conversation. [C: That's true.] I don't think that's the entire conversation, and if it was, I don't think Crowley thinks it's the entire conversation, either, you know, what I mean? [C: Fair.] We can see it, when Crowley goes, "When Heaven destroys Earth, it will be the same as if Hell destroyed it." [C: Yeah, yeah, she seems like she's talking about something they both know.] Yeah. And Aziraphale goes, "I can really make a difference!" implying that Aziraphale thinks that like, to Aziraphale, that means like, "I'm not gonna let that happen, you know, if I was in charge." But to Crowley, it's like, Aziraphale saying, "Who give a shit? But like, we can change some other things," you know. And it's like [pained sound]. It's just so sad because it's like, I mean, the advice is solid. "Talk to each other." But like, even in the talking to each other, it's like, you're still saying different things.

C: And they're not aware that they're saying different things, so we don't get the like, "I feel like my exactly and your exactly are two different exactlys," kind of like, pause and clarification moments that they need. [G: Yeah.] I don't know. I guess regarding Aziraphale’s attitude going into this, I'm mostly thinking about how he's decided to frame romance as being like, a Jane Austen thing. And I'll just rehash what I complained about a little bit in an ask answer, which is that, to me, Jane Austen- I think this is more specifically Pride and Prejudice, which is the Jane Austen novel that gets read aloud this season, so I'm assuming is the main one that the viewer is supposed to draw on. [G: Gets read aloud? Oh, by Gabriel!] By Gabriel. But like, the purpose of Pride and Prejudice is to be like, "Marriage is like, such like, a risky, complicated thing, and it's like, what will secure your financial future and your social future, which is intimately tied with your financial future, and, everything could be super horrible. You could end up with someone who you hate, or you could end up destitute." Pride and Prejudice is about the fantasy of like, "You will find someone that you're compatible with, who is also rich. And like, has a good reputation. And all these things will come together, and then it'll just happen, and everything will be great." And I feel like Aziraphale is playing into that. He's like, "Oh, great! Here's the honorable profession that both me and my partner can be in, and our social futures are secured, and then we're also very compatible. It's wonderful! I've done it. [G: Yeah.] I've found a way for us to have that ending." And it's like, well, it is a fantasy in Jane Austen, and it's not gonna happen, dude.

G: Yeah. And the thing is like, the difference with Crowley and Aziraphale in the situation is like, I mean, we've mentioned- We're going all over the place in this confession. But, like, this is how it's supposed to be, always.

C: We haven't even gotten to the confession! [G laughing] We're outside! We're on the terrace of that French restaurant!

G: [laughs] Aziraphale's walking, is what's happening. [both laugh] Okay, I'll reserve that thought later. Let's continue.

C: Okay. So we hear like, a like, a hopeful choral version of theme going on as Aziraphale walks into the bookstore.

G: Well, I just wanna mention, during the fixing of the bookshop scene, I mean, this is a sound that plays a lot in Good Omens. The like, [sings the slow part of the theme song] And it's the last time we hear it this season, and I just- Agh! I don't even know why I brought it up. I think about it always. And also every time it plays, I do think about- It's what plays in the saving the books scene, right? A variation of it?

C: It's just a version of theme song. Basically, every song in the show is a version of the theme song. G: Is it? What what part of the theme song is that? C: [sings the slow part of the theme song] G: What part of the theme song? C: [keeps singing the part, ending with the trill at the end] [G laughs] And that last [trills] is when the like, missile or whatever falls into the water?

G: Okay, I'll be honest. I don't listen to the theme song a lot. The version of the theme song I listen to is the one with the guitar. [sings the beginning of the theme song with guitar twang] [C: No it's-] Oh, it's the one that's like, choir. The [sings] Ah- Okay, okay! [laughs] Well, every time I hear it, I think about Crowley doing the song with Warlock, which is so important to me as always. [C: Yeah.] Go to sleep and dream of pain.

C: Yeah. I listen to the theme song every time I watch this with other people, because we often sing along to theme song over Zoom, which means that we're all- G: What? What do you sing? C: Oh, I mean, just random sounds, I mean, sometimes if there's something relevant- Oh, shit! I forgot! Sorry! 'Cause the last time we were singing it, we were singing like, happy birthday to Claudius along the tune of the theme song. Right. Last time I watched this episode was with Claudius, [G laughs] and I promised him that I would bring one opinion that he has to this episode for everyone to hear, and the thing that he wants all of our lovely listeners to hear is that Gabriel and Beelzebub should break up. [G laughs] So true.

G: They literally fucking should. Like, they literally should. It is essential. [C: It'd be funny.] You cannot sustain with just one person forever. [C: Yeah. There's no nightlife on Alpha Centauri.] Eventually, you will want to do other things and see other things. Yeah. No nightlife to speak of, even!

C: Yeah. Yeah. Are there any people there? I don't think so. G: Probably not. C: They need to break up. It would be really funny. And then they should like, explode Crowley's dream vacation spot, [laughs] and then they can never go there again.

G: Oh, wait! That just made me emotional! [C: Aw.] I don't even know when we said this to each other, but like, we said, like, "There are so many times in history where they would have probably thought like, 'Oh, maybe like, Aziraphale and I can be here next time,' or 'Crowley and I could be here next time.'" And then that era is just gone. Like, did they even have a regency dance, the two of them? Probably not. [C exhales] Did they ever go to like, a Roman festival? Probably not. You know, it's like, [sad sound].

C: And they'll never go to Alpha Centauri [G: Yeah.] because the Beelzebub and Gabriel breakup will explode both of those stars.

G: Yeah. And I just wanna say also that, hi, Claudius! [laughs] In addition to Gabriel and the reality about breaking up, you know who should get together? Michael [both] and Shax. [both laugh] I think they should get together. [C: So true.] I think it would be so funny if Gabriel and Beelzebub break up, and it's like, Crowley's like, "See, love is never real. An angel and a demon, it could never work out." [C laughs] And then Shax and Michael are like, "We're together, and we're so happily married," and Crowley is like, "For fuck's sake!" [C laughing] I think it's essential that they do this.

C: Yeah. Aziraphale walks in, and Maggie and Nina are leaving, going, "Oh, I'm sure you two have a lot to say." And Aziraphale just seems to not see them at all. Like, he only has eyes for Crowley. He's just smiling and looking at Crowley, and, agh, what if love was so real but also so not real?

G: What if love was Crover, in all the ways that we know it, and some that we don't? [both laugh] We're just bringing up the hits in this one. [both laugh]

C: Outside, Nina and Maggie go off to their separate shops, and the Metatron sits down with Muriel, who's reading a book. He encourages them in doing this, which is pretty interesting. I mean, it's like- I mean, he uses the same tactic with Aziraphale where it's like, "I will encourage your interest in an Earth thing that you feel a little uncertain if you're allowed to like, and then that will allow me to tell you to do things more." [G: Yeah.] Etc. And then we- [laughs] Oh, god! [nervously laughing] We're baaack in the bookstore. [G: Hell, yeah!] Crowley's standing. The desk chair is now turned back towards the desk, so it's like, Crowley's committing to standing for this. And I think the standing decision- like, both of them are standing. I think if both of them just sat down, they would be able to have a calmer conversation, and this would have turned out better. But they're both standing. And I think that's just like, a tenser situation. I think that that makes it scarier. And I don't know why Crowley's standing. I guess if Crowley was sitting and gestured for Aziraphale to sit down, it would feel too big, or whatever. So I think I think they want the option to like, run away, and if not run away, at least pace nervously if they want.

G: You know, I do wonder so severely what Crowley was planning to say before. C: Same! Same. I think it was different. G: It was for sure different. C: But also, Crowley wasn't really planning, because Maggie and Nina just left. Crowley goes straight from that conversation to this conversation.

G: But there was something here, right? Like, I mean, he's about to start talking so like, he was gonna say something. [C: That's true.] And I think it was, gonna be off-the-cuff or whatever, but it's gonna be different because the context is different.

C: Yeah. Do you have an idea for what you think Crowley would say?

G: You know what he says later, like, "We've been a group of the two of us for so long, and I want to spend the rest [C breathing shakily] of time with you." Like, they're already doing that. So like, here, it's like, what's that even mean, you know? Like, I feel like if Crowley says that, and Aziraphale's like, "We are already doing that." So like-

C: I mean, Crowley doesn't know that they're already doing that.

G: Yeah. But like, you know what I mean? Like, Aziraphale would be like, "Yeah." And then there needs to be more to say, like, later, because even that is already something that they probably won't be doing. [C: Yeah.] Like, being away from Heaven and Hell together is like, "We discuss this first before we go into the feelings of the matter." [C: Uh-huh.] And I feel like if, you know, this conversation was different from Aziraphale's direction, they would have gotten to the feelings of the matter. [C: Yeah.] Remember, like, couple eps ago- I mean, "couple eps ago." It was literally like, Episode 11. But like, in Episode 11, I was like, "I'm afraid, like, Crowley will say 'I love you,' but I'm afraid that Crowley will not." [C: Yeah.] Here, spoiler, I guess, [laughs] Crowley doesn't say "I love you." [C: Yeah.] And I think she would have if [C: Oh.] the conversation did not go this way. [C: Maybe!] The "I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to do this." is like, bit futile when you're already doing it, so like, "I want to do this because" becomes the conversation. But here, even the "I want to do this" is turned down, so, Crover.

C: Crover! Crowley starts with, "Look, I suppose" and then, like, during this, just like, whips off his sunglasses and [G makes pained sound] this- [pained sound] [laughs] And-

G: Also, it's quiet. It's quiet. Throughout this recap, I'm gonna keep pointing out the sounds, I suppose, but right now, it's quiet. Like, no background music and also no background sounds. [C: Yeah.] It's quiet.

C: There's a clock ticking at some points later, but not here.

G: Later! But it's later. That's what I was gonna bring up later. [C: Oh, okay, sorry!] The moment it becomes tense, the clock starts sticking. And I- it's crazy. [laughs] Like, it adds so much to the anxiety of the scene that, like, you have Crowley here, like, trying very hard to say what he's trying to say, and then in the background, the clock is just fucking ticking. It's such a good choice! Such a good choice.

C: The sunglasses thing is, it feels especially impactful because of how long of a period Crowley has had them on. Because [G: This episode, yes.] Crowley has not had them off this episode, yeah. The last time Crowley had them off was like, telling Aziraphale, "Oh, I can smell you're doing something," like, regarding the ball thing after like, telling Gabriel to kill himself. And yeah. Crowley's had them on since the like, 6 PM to now, which is, what? You said, like, probably around like, 9 AM. [G: 9 AM, yeah. Maybe 8.] Yeah. So it's been 14 to 15 hours, and like, she didn't even take them off when she was alone in the shop, but like, now he does. The standing up, I think, is partly defensive, but it is also something that makes you feel more vulnerable. The sunglasses off, like, a hundred percent just a making you feel more vulnerable thing. It could be so easy to keep them on because this is like, a super scary thing, and like, they must be scared, but it's like, "No, I'm like, putting my heart in your hands and trusting you to be careful with it." What if we all died? Agh.

G: I don't have much feelings about the removing the glasses in this part [C: Okay.], but I do have a lot in like, the putting on the glasses, [C: Yeah.] and like, the fact that- Later, later, we'll get into it later.

C: Yeah, we have to stick to our close read. Crowley's voice is so- it sounds sort of like they're like, on the verge of crying the whole time, but also, like, on the verge of like, terrified laughter. And like, he's holding himself together incredibly tensely, like, you can see every tendon on his neck. And it's- yeah. It's a lot. So yeah, he says, "Look, I suppose, um, I've got something to say. I know we ought to be talking about-" And then, like, they cut off, and I don't know if she's saying like, "I know we ought to be talking about the Second Coming," or like, "what just transpired in the bookshop regarding the battle" or- what do you think it was? [G: I mean, something of those.] Yeah, just like, "We should be talking about all that plot shit, but I need to say this first."

G: Yeah. Also the plot shit is terribly written, so it's fine.

C: Yeah. Okay. If the "I know we ought to be talking about" is about the Second Coming, though, I feel like it's easy to forget that that's like- maybe part of why Crowley's saying this now isn't just because of Maggie and Nina. It's because the world is going to end. And like, the last time he and Aziraphale went into an Apocalypse together [G: And it all went to shit, yeah.], she started out thinking they were a united front, but like, they ended up not being one, and they weren't talking to each other and stuff, so it might be like, "If we're entering into this new disaster, I want it to be like, together together." [G, sadly: Yeah.] Then, Crowley says, "It's probably best if I start off doing all the talking, you do all the listening, 'cause if I don't start talking now, I won't ever start talking. Right." Agh! I don't know. It is the fact that, like, Crowley's going straight from the Maggie and Nina conversation to this. Like, 'cause Crowley knows that like, she'll chicken out if she waits any longer. Like, if they go to that breakfast at the Ritz, Crowley's gonna sit there and be like, "This is so wonderful, and I love him so much, and I don't want anything about this to change."

G: I mean, it makes me so miserable to think about all the times Crowley was like, "Maybe I should say something" and then decided against it.

C: Yeah. This line doesn't imply, like, "Maybe I know from experience that like, if I don't start talking now, I won't ever start talking." Aziraphale is so excited about the Metatron news. Like, seems fully to have not heard any of the shit. Is not at all aware of what Crowley is going through. [G: Yeah.] And goes, "What's that lovely human expression? Oh, yes! Hold that thought." And Crowley looks so pissed off! [G: Crowley pissed.] Yeah, got a "are you fucking kidding me right now?" face going on, and well, things are only gonna get worse, beloved. And it's your turn. - G: Aziraphale is so happy. [C: Yeah. He's spinning his hands-] Almost can't get words out with how excited he is to tell Crowley this. [C sighs] He says, "I have some incredibly good news to give you." [C makes sad sound] That wording. "News." It's crazy to me! It's not like, "I'm going to ask you something." It's like, "I'm telling you that this is happening." [C: Yeah.] And Crowley went into this conversation- Well, probably not "went into," but the way Crowley deals with this conversation is like, "I'm going to confess. Like, I just need to say it. I need to just get it out there." You know, the "it" in question is "I would like to spend the rest of-" [C inhales] dot dot dot, but like, you know, "- existence with you." We know Aziraphale goes into this conversation being like "I have found a way for us to continue living our existence together in a way that I can enact positive change, and you and I don't have to be afraid of anything, and you can be happy." [C: Yeah.] What Crowley is asking, Aziraphale is just like- I feel like what's happening in Aziraphale's head right now is, I mean later, I guess, is like, "But what you're asking, like, we can live that life, you know? [C: Yeah.] You want to be together, we can do that!" [pained sound] Crowley is asking Aziraphale here, and Aziraphale is telling Crowley. Like, it's "Please decide to be with me" vs "I've decided that we're already together, and like, this is how we can continue doing that." [C: Yeah.] And then they didn't. Yeahh! Yess! [sighs] Aziraphale keeps on stuttering and goes like, "The Metatron, like, I don't think he's as bad- I think I misjudged him." And I was like, "Go, girl!"

C: Yeah. "Misjudge" is interesting. Like, is he saying, "I don't think he meant that shit last season about the war"?

G: I don't know. I think maybe he's thinking like, "I thought the intentions behind it were this, but like, turns out whatever."

C: So what were the intentions?

G: I don't even know. I don't know. Ask Aziraphale. [laughs]

C: I just had a thought. [G: What?] I don't know how reasonable it is. But do you think Aziraphale- Okay, at the end of the apocalypse, Crowley is like, "What if God wanted this to be like this all along?" [G makes pained sound] And like, we've talked about how in the book, the apocalypse is a test of Adam, but in the show, it's a test of Aziraphale. Does any part of Aziraphale think that the Metatron was just saying that as part of God's test of the Aziraphale? Like, "He didn't mean that. That was just to like, see if in the face of all that, I would still know what the right thing is so that now I can be promoted to God's specialest little boy."

G: I think that may be a way for Aziraphale to see it, because the way- as we'll discuss later, the way Metatron says it, right, it's like, "You're a leader. [C: Yes.] You're capable." That's in direct reference to what happened in the Apocalypse.

C: Yeah, that's the only like, time that they've talked to each other. Yeah, I mean, I already read Aziraphale’s opinion as like- I guess I was previously reading it as, "Oh! The Metatron changed his mind about the Apocalypse, and I helped him see the real hard truths." But I think all it could also be like, "The whole time, this was a test, and God and the Metatron always knew what the right thing was."

G: As Aziraphale continues, he goes like, "Gabriel obviously hasn't worked out as Supreme Archangel and Commander of the Heavenly Host." And he asks, like, Metatron asks who Aziraphale thought should take over in Heaven. And we start this part where, like, every time Aziraphale like, recites what the Metatron has said, we go to a scene where, you know, the actual conversation is happening. [C: Fun editing.] Yeah, it is fun. But also like, when it happened, I was like, "[gasps] I thought the final was fifteen! Just, you know, it's just Aziraphale and Crowley! Why is there scenes of fucking Metatron in here?" We go to the conversation that they're having in the French restaurant patio. It's Aziraphale being like, "Oh, is the next Supreme Archangel going to be Michael?" And the Metatron going like, "No no no, don't be silly. There's only one candidate who makes even the slightest bit of sense. And that's you." [sadly] Ohh. And, you know, the Metatron says, like, "You're a leader. You're honest. You don't just tell people-"

C: Okay, first, we cut back to Aziraphale in present day going, "And I said, 'Me?!'" And he's so cute! He's so fucking cute! [G laughs] Sorry that you're making a bad decision right now. You don't know it's a bad decision.

G: This was kind of funny to me, because I was like, literally Aziraphale is like, RubbishPodding this conversation with Metatron.

C: [laughs] He is. He truly is.

G: Okay, let's do this [C: Breakdown.]- dissect this analysis of Aziraphale's character from Metatron’s perspective. "You're a leader." [both] When? [both laughing] Who has he led? Crowley, through the streets of Whickber Street [C laughing] in a collar? Who has he led?

C: When has he led? The paint on his ancient, like, plates that everyone who's eaten from has gotten poisoned from, probably? [G laughs] It's- yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

G: That's a lie, they're lying to you, Aziraphale!

C: He rung that bell to get everyone to shut up. [laughs] Is that leadership?

G: I mean, that could be- That's leadership. That's leadership. He took initiative and everything.

C: You can't lead when all you do is to work solo or with one other person. I don't know what- [G: Yeah.] I don't know. But I guess it could just be like, "You have traits that are good for leadership." And then the other two things are like, describing that.

G: Yeah, I suppose. [C: "You're a leader," colon, "You're honest."] The next thing he says is, "You're honest." [C: Yes.] Is that true?

C: I think- well, okay, well, I'm seeing "You're honest" and "You don't just tell people what they want to hear" as a combination like. I'm reading this as- I think Aziraphale, at least, is reading this as like, "You had the bravery to like, call upon God Herself, and like, tell all of us that the Apocalypse was bad, and like, that was really cool of you, and we all agree with you now. It's just those pesky other archangels that you'll now be in charge of that you can get out of the way, and then you can enact your feelings about Earth on our policy" or whatever.

G: Yeah. And what does Metatron actually mean?

C: I think he's just saying shit. [laughs] That he thinks it'll butter up Aziraphale.

G: Yeah, he's trying to manipulate this- yeah.

C: Yeah. I don't think he means anything.

G: Why even bring in Aziraphale? 'Cause like, Aziraphale is a threat? Like, Aziraphale has stopped the Apocalypse before? Might do it again?

C: Oh, yeah, that's what I assume.

G: Yeah. And like, having them separate, that's like, you know, let's cement the chances that it doesn't happen again.

C: Yeah. Also, I guess, Crowley did say earlier this episode, "Turns out when we do a miracle together, it's like, extra powerful."

G: Yeah. Why, the fuck is Crowley even talking in that scene. Shut the fuck up. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] You don't have to explain. You can lean into Aziraphale’s ear and whisper "Get the box," and like, it's fine.

C: Yeah, yeah. People would make gifsets of it. It'd be great. A win for everyone!

G: He says "There are huge fans afoot. Enormous projects. And we'll need you to run them."

C: He also says "It's why Gabriel came to you in the first place, I imagine," which is like, a total lie.

G: Why did Gabriel come to Aziraphale? C: No fucking clue! G: What I assume is like, Gabriel knows that Aziraphale and Crowley are something, so like, this is an angel who will understand the situation maybe.

C: But was Gabriel- Gabriel said that he was planning to go to Beelzebub, but then he forgot. [G: No! No.] So he had no actual memory when he went down to Earth. Well, okay, where was he coming from? [G: That's so funny! That's so funny.] Because if he just came out of the Dirty Donkey elevator, then it's like [G: No, people wouldn't have time to gather.], he wouldn't have been walking down the street for a long time. [G: Yeah.] So where did he come from?

G: But also, now, when I think about it, when Gabriel was saying the like, "You know you just wanna be with that one person and make everything right?" Whatever. I don't really care about the sentence. [laughing] I thought it was legitimately to do with Aziraphale! [both laughing] Like, why would it not be about Aziraphale? He's in Aziraphale's bookshop.

C: Everyone wants to fuck that guy. Maggie, Furfur, Gabriel.

G: What if? What if everyone really does just want to fuck Aziraphale? Have we considered?

C: Yeah, yeah, we have considered. [G: We're considering it now.] I have no clue how he ended up at Aziraphale's, 'cause again, he was walking down the street too little- it would make sense if he just came out of the Dirty Donkey, and then, like, there was some kind of small spark of recognition at the bookstore. But like, that's not it. Where was he coming from?

G: I mean, the "I was gonna come to you, but I forgot." I interpreted it actually as like, "I was gonna go to you after, like, I got to Aziraphale" and stuff, "but I forgot." But like, yours makes more sense. Because, like, why have the stop over in the first place? Like, literally why?

C: Yeah. Dunno. No worries. [G: Dunno.] Yeah. So Gabriel came to Aziraphale no reason whatsoever. [G laughs] But maybe Aziraphale, like you, interpreted the "person and then if you like, are with them, then, you know, you'll be totally fine" or whatever, as like fully being about him. So he's like, "Wow! Gabriel really respects me and my ability to protect him" or whatever the fuck.

G: I mean, his whole "I promised I would protect you." [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah, no. He thinks he's so cool.

G: He thinks he's so fun and fresh. The Metatron says, "There are huge plans afoot. Enormous projects. And I will need you to run them."

C: What did Aziraphale think the projects were? [G: No, exactly! What the fuck did he think the projects were?] Like, give everyone an ice cream cone? Like, what does Heaven do? Has Heaven ever had like, a project or a plan where you're like, "This is good." Like, you had Job and the flood, like, not a good precedent.

G: Sometimes, I wonder like, Aziraphale has, you know, this much- like, we have seen Aziraphale have that much faith in Heaven. So like, I just wish we have seen, like, one good thing Heaven has done to like, warrant that kind of like- [C: I'm sure it's happened.] I'm sure it has happened. But also, you can make the case of like, "Just the mere like, fact that they are intervening with humanity is like, that will always end badly. Like, even if it looks good now, it will result to something bad because, like, you're refusing to give humans the ability to choose" or whatever whatever. You know what I mean.

C: Aziraphale had a whole speech about that in 1.04. [G: Yeah.] He said, like, "Yes, obviously, there's good and evil so that people have a choice and free will, but our job should just be to keep everything running so that they can keep making choices." Like, wouldn't he want [laughs] small government from Heaven?

G: "Huge plans afoot" doesn't really tie up with that kind of thinking, you know? [C: Exactly.] Is the enormous project a new building on this south side of the like, Heaven complex? Like, what are you thinking, Aziraphale?

C: I don't know. It's like, I can believe that he thinks that they're good projects, but yeah. I don't think that he want- He was anti-Heaven interference last season. Why does he-

G: I think because Aziraphale thinks of himself as good, I think maybe a part of this is like, "They're asking me to have the job, so therefore, it must be for a good thing, 'cause they wouldn't ask me if it wasn't."

C: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. "They came up to me and said, 'You're the one who tells the hard truths no one else will,' and the only hard truth I told was that, like, we should interfere in Earth less and not do the Apocalypse." So yeah, it could be like, the huge project could be like, downsizing Heaven or something, right? [G: Yeah.] Like, that is a reasonable thing to call an enormous project, or like, a big plan, or whatever. Like, okay, to us, the Metatron's like, compliments to Aziraphale feel like completely unbacked or whatever the fuck. But I guess, like, Aziraphale has been looking for reassurance for like, four years or whatever. So [G: Yeah.] it does work a lot faster than it would on another person, I suppose. I guess I also wonder, like, if you asked Aziraphale what traits he likes about himself, like, what would he have?

G: Good lord. This is like, we're doing- like, we're RPing Aziraphale going through therapy right now. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I don't know, actually. What would he say?

C: Well, he says that he's very good at forgiveness, and it's one of his favorite things, in 2.01. So I guess that's something.

G: The thing is like, every single forgiveness he has done or he has said- When was it, right? Like, to Crowley, to Maggie, and to Crowley again. With all three of them, he's like, lauding power over these people. [C: Yeah.] Like, the "I forgive you" with Crowley is like, "I forgive you, but I'm still not going to do what you said." And with Maggie, it's like, "I forgive you, and like, you know, the mere fact that I'm forgiving is like, because I have this advantage over you. [C: Yeah.] I can, you know, dole out this forgiveness and take it back if I want." [C: Mm-hm.] And with Crowley later, the I forgive you is- we'll get into it. [both] We'll get into it when we get into it. That's crazy. [laughs] I'm in there. My brain's in there. Well, whatever. We'll get into it later.

C: Well, get out of it so that we can get into it when we do get into it.

G: Yeah. Aziraphale says, "I don't want to go back to Heaven. Where would I get my coffee?" Which, you know, a fun thing to say because it's not a denial of the task. It's not like saying, "I don't want to do what Heaven is doing." It's just "I don't want to leave my life here." Also, does Aziraphale even can drink coffee?

C: No, I think he's just like, saying stuff 'cause he doesn't really want to like, dig into why he doesn't wanna leave out loud.

G: No, of course. But like, I was thinking about it. Why is he gonna go to a coffee shop? 'Cause it seems like him and Nina know each other.

C: I mean, like, they have like, tea and hot chocolate at coffee shops also.

G: Oh, yeah! They have tea in them because Maggie orders tea. I was just thinking like, "I wouldn't particularly go to a coffee shop as a non coffee drinker if it has coffee in the name."

C: There's not a lot of teashops, though, at least in the US, like, not often. A coffee shop is just a general hot beverage shop.

G: Okay, fine. [C laughs] Fine. [C: Sorry.] Live your truth, live your life. etc. [C laughs]

C: I guess it's okay, so earlier, his denial of the Metatron was, "I've made my position quite clear." So like, that's ideological. This is like- is it like, "He wants to, but he's still not sure, so he's just backing out," or like, he does say, "I don't want to go back to Heaven." I think he'd like, doesn't want to go back to Heaven. So, I don't know. How are you seeing this? Does he think that this conversation is going to close? Or is this like, a "convince me further" sort of question statement?

G: I don't think Aziraphale is thinking of the like, strategy of the conversation.

C: I mean, not necessarily thinking of the strategy. It's like, "I'm still thinking about it, and perhaps you could say more afterwards, but I'm not like, angling for it."

G: Yeah, that's strategy.

C: I don't think- is it? So you think that he's gonna say this, and the Metatron's gonna go, "Understood." and then leave?

G: No, I think Aziraphale is just straight up saying, "I don't want to go back to Heaven. Where would I get my coffee?"

C: Yeah. okay. But like, he would also know that that's not- I'm just saying with his earlier, like, "There's nothing to talk about," like, thing is a lot firmer than this thing. Like, I feel like he would be aware that this would not end the conversation. [G laughs]

G: I have a question. When you're having conversations, do you think of it like that? [C: Like what?] Do you go, "Oh, if I say this, will the conversation end?" [laughs] Do you think that?

C: I mean, sometimes. It's like, "When can I press that red button with the phone on it?" [G laughs]

G: I mean, I just don't think Aziraphale is thinking here anything of that sort. [C: Okay.] I think conversation they're having. [C: Okay.] Metatron responds to that inquiry with, "As Supreme Archangel, you would be able to-" First of all, I can't believe you're giving him the highest position. [C: Yeah.] It's crazy! You'll become the CEO of Heaven. That's crazy! [both laugh] I think I saw this like, post that's like- [C: The Amazon one?] Yeah, that was the one. [laughs] Like, "What if Jeff Bezos showed up at your friend's house, and Jeff Bezos previously tried to kill said friend, and the friend was like, 'Noo, but he forgot everything.' [both laughing] And then that boss ran away with your boss. And you're like, 'Wow, now we can go to eat,' and Aziraphale just goes, 'I'm the CEO of Heaven'-"

C: - "'And I want you to be the CFO.'" Yeah. [G laughing] [G: God!] I mean, the post that I find the funniest about this situation is "What if you were about to confess your gay love to your best friend, and he said, 'Let's go to conversion therapy camp... together.'" [G laughing] But yeah.

G: Good lord! Crowley's having such a day, and it's only like, 8 or 9 AM.

C: Hasn't slept all night, either.

G: They don't need sleep. They'll be fine.

C: Crowley likes to sleep, though. Crowley was asleep in their car earlier.

G: Yeah. Oh, that's true! God. Crowley is gonna come back to that flat. You win some, you lose some, truly, Crowley. You win that flat, you lose your best friend and the love of your 6,000-year existence. [C: Yeah.] [both] RIP! Jesus Christ.

C: Given the cost of real estate, like, worth it, question mark? [both laugh] [G: Could be worth more, probably.] Speaking of that fucking flat, we just decided that Aziraphale did not process that Crowley's been living in his car?

G: Yeah. Aziraphale DGAF, yeah.

C: Yeah. I wish that he'd noticed, because I feel like that would help with the rest of this. But yeah. But-

G: God. What's that thing I told you the other day? [C: What did you tell me the other day?] The reason they gave Crowley the flat is to make sure that they have somewhere to fuck next season-

C: That's not just the streets?

G: Yeah, that's not the street, and also not, you know, Gabriel's single size bed. Yeah. [C: Maybe so.] But they should fuck in that single size bed. [C: And the street.] And the street, yeah! The Metatron says, like, "Looking back at your past stuff, a few of them, you have formed a de facto partnership with the demon Crowley. If you want to work with him again, it will be considered irregular, but it would be within your jurisdiction to restore your friend, Crowley, to full angelic status."

C: Aziraphale literally thought he'd be sauntering up to Heaven with his hot demon boyfriend on a leash going, "Oh my god, hii, guys! So Mom said that I was actually right about everything [G laughing], and now none of you can ever listen to The Sound of Music again."

G: [laughs] Yeah. And then he's gonna be there. He's gonna be so miserable when he gets there. Good lord.

C: Yeah. Yeah. His leash collection with no one to put it on. But yeah, I mean, this does- like, yeah. Like, they called him stupid for 6000 years and threatened humanity and like, threatened to erase him from The Book of Life. And now he gets to go up there and be like, "I was right about everything, and all of you want to fuck my hot demon boyfriend so much, and you can't." Like, I get it.

G: Yeah. But also, it's so fascinating, like, the way, Heaven and God is just completely separate. "That's not me!" That's God speaking. I'm speaking as God. [C laughs] God is saying, "That's not me! That's not who I am!" Self-actualized as a liar. [laughing]

C: There's a world where you could just- like, Crowley can be Heaven as a demon. Like, we just saw her do that. [G: Yeah. Like, why?] Like, specifically, "He can't be up there as a demon. You have to turn them into an angel first."

G: Also, like, if it's about powers or whatever it's like, Crowley already seems more powerful than Aziraphale. [C: Oh, yeah, with the weather and the stopping time.] Like, Aziraphale requests Crowley to do things.

C: I mean, I don't think that necessarily means Aziraphale can't do things.

G: Stop time? I think Aziraphale can't stop time. [C: Huh.] Because every single step it's so pointedly, like, "Crowley, do something!"

C: Yeah. But also, isn't that their dynamic?

G: I don't know, the 1827, Aziraphale specifically like, tells Crowley, like, "Do this specifically."

C: That's true, like, "Could you?" and then makes a gesture.

G: If Aziraphale could do that, I feel like Aziraphale would just do it, and then tell Crowley, like, "And this is what we're gonna do afterward," and it would be the same like, "I'm asking you to do this" thing. [C: That's true.] He had to ask Crowley specifically for that. So yeah. it's not like being a demon makes Crowley less powerful than Aziraphale that they need to turn Crowley back to angelic status to have the same kind of power as Aziraphale. But like, that's not how it works.

C: Yeah, and also the Metatron doesn't want Crowley to be more powerful. But yeah, I guess from Aziraphale’s point of view, it's like, why is this a necessary change?

G: I don't know. Aziraphale, king of hating demons and demon nature, so.

C: So true. Well, there's also like, angel as a job versus angel as a species thing. It's like, there are like, biological whatsits. Like, there's like, the hellfire being able to destroy you completely. So like, being an angel is like, a biological thing. But like, it also is a job 'cause Aziraphale is referred to as a former angel, even though like-

G: Hellfire can still, yeah.

C: They don't know that, actually.

G: Yeah, what if the cum mixes hard and row, and they're literally immune.

C: When they call him a former angel, do they mean "You used to work for us," or do they mean "You used to be like, biologically like us, and be immune to holy water and sensitive to hellfire"?

G: [laughs] That's crazy that, like, they fire Aziraphale and Aziraphale still has all the powers, but now they just can't kill Aziraphale anymore in any way, shape, or form. [C laughs] That's so funny! Literally, they need to witch-killing bullets him. [C laughs]

C: So like, "Restore your friend Crowley to full angelic status." The Metatron means that both biologically and in a job way?

G: Interesting. I would say biologically is the way I thought it was meant. And then the job is just implied, because, like, working with Aziraphale, and Aziraphale is an angel working for Heaven, so therefore, Crowley would be working for Heaven.

C: And I mean, I guess the idea is just like, "Demons are fundamentally evil, so you can't have an actual demon working up there," yada-yada-ya, and Aziraphale just accepts that immediately. There's no "Well, what if Crowley worked with me as a demon?" I mean, Aziraphale's happy about this part. And I can't tell if the joy is just "We can be together," or if it's like, "I would prefer you as biologically an angel."

G: Yeah. Aww, Crowley! Aww. Maybe they are gonna go to conversion camp... together.

C: Yeah, I don't know. Because it's like, in my most charitable reading of Aziraphale being excited about this, it's like, he knows that everything that Crowley's said for, like, the past 6000 years is like, "This is just a job. It's just a job," like, "The sides don't matter. Heaven, Hell, don't matter. Being an angel is a job and being a demon is a job." In that case, Aziraphale would be like, "Okay, so Crowley wouldn't view this as like, changing his fundamental nature. Like, he understands that the angel and demon, like, labels don't really mean anything, so like, it wouldn't be that big of a deal for her to switch allegiances like that." But, like, Crowley's the one reading it negatively because for 6000 years, Aziraphale has said, "As a demon, you're fundamentally evil, and you don't have a choice in this matter, and I consider, like, the biological species to also be like, directly related to your capacity for good." So then Crowley is reading it as like, "Oh, like, you think that I'm like, fucked up, and you do think that I need to be fixed via like, changing my fundamental nature." But like, I don't- I don't know how off Crowley's interpretation is. Like, I think it's somewhat off, but I don't know how off it is.

G: You know what? Now that I think about it, maybe it is just a job and not the biological. 'Cause like, at least the way Aziraphale says it to Crowley-

C: "I could appoint you-"

G: Yeah, "- as an angel." When Crowley responds, it's not like, "You're turning me into an angel." It's like, "We're better than that." As in, "We're better than working with Heaven." So like, I don't think it's really particularly-

C: Yeah. I agree. I think that both are them sort of reacting to it like it's a job offer. It's only after Aziraphale starts saying shit about how Heaven’s the good guys when I think it's like, "Oh, we fundamentally disagree on these ideas."

G: I think maybe, like, we can also interface with it as like, "It's just a job." I think the more painful thought is the turning into an angel like, biologically.

C: Aziraphale says "appoint you to be an angel." The Metatron says "restore Crowley to full angelic status," which could be a job thing, but also, I don't know, I feel like the way the Metatron words it, it feels more biological than the way that Aziraphale words it.

G: I think maybe like, even Aziraphale understands what that would sound like.

C: Yeah, I would hope so, but I don't know. I guess the fun thing about this is the whole time the Metatron's saying this part of the offer, we don't see Aziraphale's face at all, and we don't even see his face immediately after we cut back to the bookshop either, because what we see first [both] is Crowley. And he's just looking at Aziraphale with this look of like, massive disbelief. Like, it looks like everything inside of her has frozen shut. She goes, "He said what?" And then it's when we see Aziraphale, and he is giggling and twirling his hair, and that's when you go, "Oh, we're so Crover. It's all so Crover." He says, "He said I could appoint you to be an angel. You could come back to Heaven, and- and everything! Like the old times. [both] Only even nicer!" And he sort of like, laughs and draws his shoulders in on the last like, part, which, like, makes me feral. I think even if it is just a job thing, like, "Like the old times, only even nicer" has to hurt about as much as like, "I want to biologically change you." [G: Yeah.] 'Cause like, if you're having a horrible time and you hear this, which is what Crowley is experiencing, it's like, "Oh, so these 6000 years were nothing, then? [G: Yeah.] You just wanted to go back us barely knowing each other, but like, 'Oh, but like, I'm an angel, and we're both on the same side, and now we'll make stars.' Like, fuck off!"

G: And I mean, like, the fact that when Crowley's talking later, the confession is like, "We've been here [C: Yeah, on Earth!] a long time on Earth." Yeah. "We've been on Earth a long time." [C: Yeah.] It must be so miserable to like, think that like, "This is the thing that's important to me, like, the 6000 years that we have spent together. This is my proof of concept that we are important to each other."

C: Yeah. "And you don't even give a shit."

G: Yeah. And Aziraphale’s just like, "Well, what about the time before? [C: Yeah.] Wasn't that so nice?"

C: Yeah. So what does Aziraphale find nice about the old times?

G: We don't know. We don't see it.

C: We see a little bit of it.

G: Yeah. But I mean, you were like, "Oh, they knew each other after this," blah blah blah.

C: Yeah, I was. I think the person who's different between those two periods is Crowley, right? Like, angel Crowley, is a lot more carefree and happy and shit. Does Aziraphale think that that joy will return in Heaven? [G makes pained sounds and sniffles] Because, like, I see no reasonable like, reason for that to be the case. But like, does Aziraphale think that?

G: [tearing up] I don't know. It's making me so miserable, though. [laughs] Oh, god.

C: Yeah, 'cause I've read interpretations where Aziraphale's like, "Okay, like, the Apocalypse is defeated, and we're together now. Everything's great. Why is Crowley still so depressed?" [G: Crowley is so miserable.] Yeah. Maybe he would go back to like, "Unforgivable, that's what I am" during 1.03, and be like, "I wonder if Crowley misses being in Heaven." Which I don't think he would think if he listened to a single thing Crowley said, but like, I can see why you would think it.

G: I can see why Aziraphale would think it from like, Crowley. But also, I would see why Aziraphale would think of it of Crowley as a reflection of himself. You know, Aziraphale obviously like, feels discontent over like, the current situation with like, you know, his job and everything. And the thing that changed is that now, he's not part of Heaven. So he's thinking, "After I left Heaven, I started to feel this discontent and like, low-simmering misery. Maybe that's where Crowley's is coming from, too, 'cause that's what we share now is like, being cut off from Heaven in some way. I changed from 'okay' to 'a bit miserable' after. Well, I mean, Crowley must feel even more miserable about that specifically, 'cause it's an even bigger jump." I don't know. Aziraphale may just think that like, "If we go back to Heaven, both of us would be happier." [C: Mm.] Like, "Something about Heaven fundamentally equates to happiness."

C: I mean, but he said "I don't want to go back to Heaven." Like, he did say that. Like, I think that he does understand "Birches" by Robert Frost, so like-

G: He doesn't want to go back to Heaven, and then the Metatron says, "But you can take Crowley," and then he goes, "Hell yeah!" and then goes back and delivers the good news. [C: Right.] Obviously, the difference here is that "But do I get to bring Crowley."

C: But it's just like, I don't think he'd believe that there's something fundamental about Heaven that equates to joy if he didn't want- Or are you just saying that he would think that no matter what, but he thinks that Crowley should also get to experience that joy, and also, he'd be lonely?

G: No. I think job discontent and [laughs] other forms of loneliness stem from different places. So the job discontent, maybe Heaven can solve. But the being away from Crowley, only Crowley can solve that. [C: Yeah. I suppose so.] So in that situation, like, Aziraphale's like, weighing the options of like, "Do I want to go back to Heaven and like, fix it, and so be able to feel contented in this way? Or do I want to stay here on Earth?" Then, like, the silent question there is like, "With Crowley." The offer now is like, "You can have both of those things," so of course he'll say yes, you know?

C: There are other things he likes on Earth. Where would he get his coffee?

G: Well, I think it would be within his jurisdiction to send Nina to Heaven. [laughing]

C: So true. I think even if Crowley understands it as purely a job thing, I mean, Crowley's got to at least suspect that Aziraphale prefers him as an angel, given, you know, the 6000 years of like, "You're fundamentally evil."

G: It's still hurts to say it out loud, I think.

C: Yeah. Oh, well. So we go back to Crowley. She looks like verging on desperate here, but it gets worse. He goes, "Right. And you told him just where he could stick it, then?"

G: What a question. Because, like, obviously, that's not the case. Like, you can see very clearly that's not the case.

C: Yeah. But he was just hoping that he would change his mind. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] I mean, it's yeah. It's like, Crowley knows what the answer is, but it's like, "My existence is literally unbearable unless you say no, so just say no."

G: This is when the music like, starts. There's this like, ominous music that starts.

C: Aziraphale's smile just sort of freezes, and he looks confused, but he is still sort of doing the same face, and he goes, "N- not at all." [G: "Not at all."] Crowley, I mean, starts getting angry and goes, "Oh, we're better than that. You're better than that, angel." which, I mean, last time he calls him angel [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] this season. We've had the pet name/not pet name debate, and we've decided in modern day, it is pet name. Currently still pet name?

G: This is such a pet name. [C: Yeah.] "You're better than Heaven, angel"?

C: Yeah, if there was any consideration of it as a species thing, like, it would like, make the opposite argument from what they're saying right now. But no, it's pet name. It's pet name as shit. So someone on Tumblr said that Crowley doesn't call Aziraphale like, his name to his face, while talking once this entire season. [G: This entire time.] That's not entirely true because he says, “Aziraphale, let's sort this out” before they get the cardboard box earlier in this episode-

G: Oh, in this scene.

C: Oh, no, I just meant like, in the entire season, there's only one time Crowley calls-

G: In this entire season? That's crazy!

C: Yeah, no, I went and did my ctrl-Fs through the transcripts.

G: Holy shit! Well, what if we all just died. [C: Yeah.] I was thinking about it in this scene because I was like, "He doesn't say 'Aziraphale' once in the scene," and I was like, it's on the same vein of not saying "I love you." It's too much of a reveal. [C: Yeah.] But in the entire season!

C: Uh-huh. Just one time, earlier this episode. "Angel-" or, sorry. "Aziraphale, let's sort this out." But that's in front of like, a crowd of people, also. [G: Of angels, yeah.] So it would probably be confusing to say "angel." In Season 1, I went through and did a count, and the number of times that Crowley calls him Aziraphale to his face in order is 1, 0, 1, 0, 2, 3. So there are like, some episodes where-

G: What the hell are you talking about?

C: The number of time Crowley calls per Aziraphale "Aziraphale" [G: Ah, per episode, okay.] per episode in Season 1. There are like, two episodes where he doesn't say [G: "Hello, Aziraphale."]- Yeah. And I think the standout one is Season 1, Episode 4, zero times, because the only time they talk is during the fight [G: "Get in the car," yeah.] and then, like, also, I guess briefly on the phone. And during that fight, Crowley calls him "angel" twice, but doesn't call him Aziraphale. I wonder if that's like, a thing? [G: Yeah.] I don't- what is the thing? Just like, when Crowley is feeling especially emotional or like, feels like they really need to get through to Aziraphale, it's like, the pet name just comes out? [G: I don't know.] It's hard to say. I'm just trying to figure out what it means that it doesn't happen at all during Season 2.

I like that it starts with "We're better that than that" and then "You're better than that." Like, it starts off like, "This is about like, us being on our own side and our relationship," but then it goes into like, like, "You, Aziraphale, specifically, don't go back to your homophobic toxic family that hurt you." It's like, a nice reverse order of like, "I've carved out for myself." "I thought we'd carved it out for ourselves." "You're better than that" does feel kind of blamey, though, which I think does not help the situation.

G: Oh, nothing helps the situation. [C: Nothing.] [laughs] I mean, I've said the last time we discussed this episode, that, like, even the standing there, I don't think helped the situation. Absolutely fucking nothing helps here.

C: Right. And you you mentioned before that like, like, Crowley's the person that Aziraphale has relied on to like, tell him he's not crazy. And like-

G: Yeah. And here he is now, telling him, "You're fucking crazy."

C: In the past it was like, whenever Crowley- like you said, like, whenever Crowley and Aziraphale disagreed, most of the time, like, Aziraphale actually did agree with Crowley; he just like, couldn't say it. So like, it was fine when Crowley was like, "You're crazy." But now it is not fine, because it's something Aziraphale truly, firmly believes that like, he wants to do. And now, here's Crowley. Crowley does think that like, Aziraphale needs rescuing, and that she's doing it right now, is the thing. They start like, agitatedly walking in a circle now, and, I mean, Aziraphale doesn't move because Aziraphale never moves. That is how they are. Crowley says, "Look, they asked me back to Hell, I said no! I'm not gonna be rejoining their team." That's not true, is the thing.

G: I mean, it's not true, that's a lie, he's lying to him, but like, there is like, a thing that Beelzebub says, right at the beginning of Season 2 that I completely forgot.

C: That is what Crowley is referring to. But Crowley did not say no. Crowley said, "I don't know anything about Gabriel right now, but if I do, I'll definitely let you know." Crowley wasn't planning on it. Like, Crowley was offered this and rejected it, like, in her mind, but Crowley never said no.

G: Yeah, but, you know, not saying yes in that kind of situation is already a no.

C: [laughs] I'd say "I will definitely let you know if I find out anything" is saying yes.

G: And then not doing anything is like, yeah. 'Cause the offer is, "If you tell us this, then you are gonna be given back your position." [C: Yeah.] If you decide "I'm not gonna tell them anything," then you're never going to be given back the position.

C: I'm not arguing that Crowley was actually considering the position. I'm just saying that the way that they're painting themselves here is inaccurate. Like, I don't think Crowley ever like, explicitly, in words, cast off Hell the way Aziraphale cast off Heaven. I mean, I'd say that killing Ligur is a pretty big statement, yes, but like, Aziraphale had like, word moments. Like, he had "I have no intention in fighting in any war." [G: Ahh, okay.] Like that is different. What we have is like, Crowley messed up the Antichrist and then killed Ligur and Hastur, but like, that could fully just be like- That first part is like, "Oh, maybe just Crowley fucked up and knew that she was gonna get tortured and didn't want that to happen." The Apocalypse, that's a little more of like a, "Okay. Crowley's against the Apocalypse. We know that for sure." But like, he's still never like, said, like, "I'm done with Hell forever." In fact, he's been helping Shax with her tasks. [G: Mm, yeah.] Like, Crowley's like a contract worker or a temp for Hell, like, from Beelzebub's point of view. [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] And has never said, "I'm done."

G: And again, like, from Beelzebub's point of view like - this is not Crowley, but like, Aziraphale in that fucking bath, though - also never says, like, "I'm leaving Hell." It's just "Hell should leave me alone," which is a different thing.

C: It is a different thing. So yeah, I'd I'd say that Crowley's interpretation of her relationship to Hell is not really correct. I guess his point is that Crowley was told that he could be a Duke of Hell, which is not Supreme Archangel levels of power,: but is something, and Crowley didn't consider it. [G: Yeah.] But like, I just think. I don't know. If Crowley was sat down and confronted with the fact that, like, her actions have sent humans to Hell, and they're being tortured in there because of temptations that he's done, and now he has the power to like, rule Hell at least partially, which means that there's like, ways to change the torture systems or like, whatever the fuck, would he really not consider it for a second? Like, I mean, it is true that it is like, fully an institutional problem, and like, Crowley wouldn't have any actual power in that position. But, like, don't you think, for a second, like, anyone would like, at least consider it?

G: And also, Crowley is still helping Shax. Like, that is a thing that's happening at the beginning of the season. [C: Yeah.] Fucking armchair everything. [C laughing] Anthony Armchair Crowley. [both] Anthony Jarmchair. [C: Yeah.] [laughing]

C: I feel like it's easier for Crowley to judge on the outside of the situation. But I think that I get it, Aziraphale-wise, and I think that- I don't know. It is possible that Crowley's knowledge of like- theoretical belief- theoretical belief and knowledge that this is like, an institutional problem is strong enough that, like, she'd just like, immediately laugh in anyone's face about this, but-

G: Yeah. I think also, there is a difference between like, Crowley knowing that Hell is bad versus Aziraphale thinking that he's entering an institution that is fundamentally good.

C: Yeah, I mean, Crowley thought that at the end of Season 1, they both knew that Heaven was fundamentally bad, but they did not both know this. So what Aziraphale says next is, "But well, obviously you said no to Hell. You're the bad guys. But Heaven. It's the side of truth, of light. Of good." And, okay, like, I guess Crowley POV reaction to this first. I mean, man. Aziraphale is just saying shit. Like, this is the point when you go, "Oh. He is beyond reason. He like, is fucking got." [G: Yeah.] Like, Crowley's mouth is like, fully open. Like, they're so shocked and confused. [G: Agape.] Yeah. It must be crazy to realize in these entire four years, when they've never talked about anything important, that your partner is a lib.

G: I mean, like, the thing is like, if- I think if Aziraphale just like, admitted that, like, "Heaven is like, bad, but with my help, we can change that." [C laughs] Like, I think this would have gone like, a little bit differently. I still think Crowley would be upset, but, like, I think Crowley would have understood where, Aziraphale's coming from more. But the fact that Aziraphale is painting this as like, "This is a benevolent thing I'm doing for a benevolent organization as well," like, really seals the fucking deal.

C: Yeah. And like, maybe Aziraphale means just like, "Heaven's mission is like, truth and light and good, and I think that- I believe that-" I guess it's like, "I believe that its current- it's structured to do good, it's just being used badly." I mean, I feel like Crowley would still have an issue with that, 'cause, like, I think Crowley thinks it's not structured to do good. But, I don't know. I feel like if if Aziraphale did explain himself a little bit more, that could be something that Crowley could engage in, but like, the way that Aziraphale presents it now, it's like, "Well, how do I get my teeth? That's just a stupid-ass sentence." Yeah, the thing is that, like, "We're on our own side now" in Season 1, Episode 6 to Crowley means that "We're finally agreed that Heaven and Hell suck equally, and we're casting them off as a former demon and a former angel in a partnership," but [both laugh] Aziraphale blackout poetrys that into "We suck off as partners." [both laughing]

G: And they literally suck off as partners! And they haven't even tried penetration yet.

C: They haven't even tried penetration. But yeah, but I guess the point is like, Aziraphale thinks "our own side" is like, a relationship, and Crowley thought it was like, "Ideologically, we agree now" [G: Yeah, we agree.] Also, part of it is that 'you sort of always agreed,' and part of it is that 'you've realized during this process.' But overall, we agree now." [G: Yeah.] And this is like, the moment when- well, I guess after Crowley starts her confession, I guess, is the moment when, like, that illusion fully shatters on both sides. But yeah, currently, Crowley is having her illusion shattered.

I do wonder, like, they had the Arrangement. Both of them have done jobs for both sides. They know what both sides' desires for Earth are, because they both done jobs from both sides. Like, I'm just surprised that never comes up in the show.

G: Yeah. Like, the whole point of the Arrangement is like, "I'll do your miracles, and you'll do my temptations." And it's just- it's never acknowledged. Like, first of all, what the fuck is a blessing? [C laughs] Second of all, Aziraphale doing tempting is like, that must mean something to him. That must have changed his mind.

C: Yeah, I'm surprised Aziraphale didn't have like, ten breakdowns about it every time!

G: Yeah. Yeah. Like, it must have meant something to him. Like, even if it didn't change his mind, it was something to think about.

C: Both of them have, like, a quantifiable, like, lived experience, or whatever for, like, "What does Heaven want on Earth?" And "What does Hell want on Earth?" and like, I don't know, is that part of where Aziraphale's drawing his conclusions? Are all the blessings that he's been assigned really so good, and all the temptations really so evil? I think this is the part that really feels like it comes out of nowhere to me. The Season 1 arc was about, you know, realizing that, this wasn't true. [G: This not being the case.] And the minisodes also contradict what Aziraphale’s saying here because what is "A Companion to Owls" about besides how Aziraphale can't actually be loyal to all of God and Heaven's ideals? And like, what is "The Resurrectionist" about if not how morality is complicated, and there cannot actually be one side that is 100% evil and one side that is 100% good? And what is "Nazi Zombie Flesheaters" about if not how the writers are bad? [laughs]

G: Yeah! I mean, the thing is, it's not a factor in this season. Like, Hell being bad in a way that Heaven isn't. Everything that Hell wants this season is like, exactly what Heaven wants. They wanna get to Gabriel, and Heaven wants to get to Gabriel. Aziraphale and Crowley are trying to get- I was gonna say, "They're trying to get Hell off their tracks," but that's literally not sure. They don't give a shit about that. [C laughs] But, like, you know, they're both trying to avoid Heaven and Hell from getting Gabriel. [C: Yup.] So like, where's this coming from even, Aziraphale?

C: It's strange and weird. [G: "You're the bad guys." That's crazy!] I mean, I guess is it just because he lost some of his precious encyclopedias recently? Like, [laughs] "The bad guys are the side that I had to throw books at." I don't get it. I guess-

G: Yeah. Do you know what Crowley should have said? Crowley should have said, "When Heaven destroys your encyclopedias, [C laughing] they will just as be destroyed as if Hell destroyed your encyclopedias." And like, I think he would have been able to get through to Aziraphale.

C: Yeah, that literally would have hit. It would have worked. But okay, I guess there is virtue to the fact that Hell has been a more strong, physical threat in Aziraphale’s life recently. And like, I don't know, and like, the fact that the Metatron, as the voice of God, came in and saved Aziraphale from any Heaven violence is something. [G: Yeah, I suppose so.] But I still- because, like, if the Metatron's the highest power that is Aziraphale's talked to, and the Metatron's like, "Aziraphale, you're great. We want you to keep existing. And we want you to be the boss of everything," but like, maybe it is like, "Oh, like, Heaven is the side of good 'cause they believe what I believe."

G: "I'm good. And they're taking me in." Yeah.

C: But why is Hell the side of evil, then, necessarily?

G: Yeah. [C: Those encyclopedias.] I think punishing Nazis is not that bad of a thing to do. [laughs] You know?

C: Yeah. That was pretty cool of them. [laughs] So, I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. It's just like, haven't we been through this shit already?

G: I think it's such a weak thing, it makes the scene weaker. It makes the conflict weaker. 'Cause, like, you're just going through stuff that we've already hashed out. And by "you," I mean Neil Gaiman. There are other ways that they disagree. As I've said earlier, like, Aziraphale being like, "Yeah, Heaven is fundamentally bad. But, like, maybe with my help, we can change those fundamentals." Like, that's that's something that he could believe.

C: Yeah, that's like, reiterating like, Gabriel's, like, "We're the good guys" during Job, which we're supposed to find like, stupid.

G: Yeah. It's like you didn't even write all those other minisodes [C laughing] that you incorporated in your show, or even considered- and, like, you don't have to write them, but, like, at least consider what they are and the implications.

C: And also John Finnemore wrote "A Companion to Owls," [G: Yeah!] and he's like, co-writing this part.

G: And he allegedly writes these fucking episodes too! Yeah!

C: I think Neil Gaiman wrote this one solo, because he had a post about what he was doing [G: Eurgh.] writing the last scene of Season 2, blah blah blah blah blah.

G: And it's like, "I'm not gonna be joining their team, neither should you." There could be a response here that isn't like, "But your team is fundamentally bad, and my team is fundamentally good." I mean, we could have skipped directly to like, you know, "I could really be making a difference." Crowley could have been like, "What difference does this does it make if both sides will end life anyway?" Like, you know, it's like, the same point.

C: Yeah, and "The last person in your position said no to the Apocalypse, and they immediately tried to memory wipe him."

G: It's Neil Gaiman who's trying to like, sequester those information. Like, it's not like Crowley's trying to not say like, "But the memory wipe, and what is in Heaven, and the Second Coming." It's purposefully being like, retracted or like, hidden away, by, like, the external factor, the external writer [C laughs] that is Neil Gaiman. Which is- And like, it's so obvious. It's so obvious like. There is no reason for Crowley to not to not say those things.

C: I mean, Crowley refers to it. Didn't we say earlier that Crowley thinks Aziraphale already knows about the Second Coming and that was part of the talk?

G: I don't know. I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced. That's so funny. [both laugh] Earlier, I was like, "I'm convinced." [C: This is true.] And now I'm not. Yeah.

C: I guess- I don't know. Another way to read the fucking minisodes and how they seem to contradict it is to like, keep in mind- 'cause when we were watching them like, especially "A Companion to Owls," we were going like, "But Aziraphale like, went through this exact same journey during the Apocalypse. Like, why are they writing this like they already know what Aziraphale is gonna be like in a few thousand years?" But like, I guess one way to think about the minisodes is like, the takeaway from like, 2.02 is that "Aziraphale doesn't learn." [laughs] Like, he's stuck in this cycle of like, realizing, and then doubt, and then like, self-reassurance, and then, like, drinking the Kool-Aid again, repeat. And like, that's why the Apocalypse happened the way it did. And I don't think that's intentional or anything, but it's like, a way I could think about this to make it make more sense to me.

G: I actually really like that. I really like that. You know why? Because when I decided, "I'm not gonna believe in God anymore," I was miserable! And now I'm back. And it's like, [laughs] yeah, probably, like, probably Aziraphale feels that way too. [C: Yeah.] Oh, Aziraphale! They're gonna be fine. They're gonna be fine. Or will they?

C: They're gonna be fine, but I don't know they're gonna be written- I don't know if the conclusion of their relationship in the way Neil Gaiman says that it's fine now it's something that I'll find emotionally satisfying. [G: Yeah.] They are going to that cottage. But like, I don't know if I'll like how they get there.

G: I mean, it's different for Aziraphale, of course, because, like, Heaven is very much a real thing for him, and like, it's something that is like, actively like, doing things and affecting things and all that crap. And like, I think the whole point of faith is like, you don't know. And Aziraphale, he does know. You know, we have the Aziraphale and Crowley "God isn't watching them" interpretation of God not be the narrator of the season, but also like, I find it fascinating that in this season where Aziraphale is like, "And now I will be enacting God's will by being the leader of Heaven," like, God is nowhere to be seen. Like, of course God can't narrate this parts, because, like, then we will know that like, "Aziraphale is doing the right thing because I really will make like, changes happen. I will allow the changes to happen in Heaven." or like, "Aziraphale's doing the wrong thing because I really will send my child onto Earth and then destroy it completely," you know. It is essential to the story that, like, there's no narrator, there's no God. But also like, looking at it from Aziraphale's perspective is like, if we're thinking of it as like, "God, this now this nebulous thing," like, God, was also nebulous in Season 1, but I feel like back in Season 1, Aziraphale was more like- thought of Heaven more as the like, thing. And then when that failed, went to God, and then when that failed, like, abandoned it. Now, Aziraphale, I think, has more of an understanding that, like, God, is like, a separate thing from Heaven. I mean, you've pointed this out, right? Like, Aziraphale is like "our ex offices," like, "our past employees," basically, with Heaven and Hell. But when it comes to God like, that's still Aziraphale's like-

C: Boss. Yeah, not former.

G: Yeah. And like, I think if we're going to do like, a faith parallel in real life to this one, like, Aziraphale thinks that God is telling him to do this. [C: Yeah.] And I mean, the Metatron is the voice of God, ideally, so. [C: So.] Oh, Aziraphale! It is important to me. Aww! I mean, you know, Aziraphale’s Season 1 faith journey is losing faith in God, basically. And then Season 2 journey is like, "Oh, but maybe God does want" blah blah blah blah. And if we follow my path in life, which is, of course, the only valid story of faith, [C: Of course.] Season 3 would be- what. Finding out that the institutions that relate to like, God are faulty. [C: Yeah.] But like, what? What? I don't know. We already went through that. But like, not equating them to each other? I don't know. It's a different thing, I guess. [C: I don't know.] Oh, Aziraphale. Mm. It literally is about "What if you're like, having gay sex, and the crucifix of the person topping is swinging over your face." [C laughs] Have I said that here in the podcast? [C: I don't know. Maybe not.] I don't think so. Yeah. Basically, the statement- yeah, the statement that I made is like, the romantic fantasy of Aziraphale and Crowley is like, "What if you're the most, like, out of touch, anxiety-ridden, like, insecure person who has ever lived, and a nonbinary, like, genderfluid fucker has just loved you for 6000 years over it?" And the sexual fantasy of Aziraphale and Crowley is, "What if the crucifix of the person topping you swings over your face while you have missionary-style gay sex?" [C: What if?] What if?

C: We already talked about how Crowley probably thinks that Aziraphale knows about the Second Coming, in which case, Crowley thinks that, what? Like, Aziraphale's going up there to try to lessen the impact of it, or stop it, like, from the inside? Like, what is Crowley think Supreme Archangel Aziraphale is gonna do? What are your policies, Aziraphale?

G: Yeah, what's your platform? I don't know. Actually, I don't know.

C: I'm still not sure if Crowley thinks that Aziraphale knows yet.

G: I mean, like, maybe Crowley is thinking, I don't know. Maybe Aziraphale is thinking like, "Maybe I can stop it." But like, obviously, that's not the case. He's saying that Metatron's offer is really good. [C: "I think I misjudged him."] Crowley just saw Metatron trying to actively pursue the Second Coming, so like, that's not the case. Maybe at the moment, Crowley's just thinking, "I don't know. Maybe Aziraphale wants to destroy the Earth. [C laughs] I mean, what- how- like, I don't even know this guy. What's going on?"

C: I mean, the line is also just a direct response to like, "Your side is evil, and my side is good." [G: Yeah.] So they could just be coming from that place. Like, Crowley might not be thinking that far ahead.

G: Nobody fucking thinks that far ahead, including Neil Gaiman.

C: It is a pretty banger line, though.

G: How are they even like- didn't he write this season, like, backwards or something?

C: I think he had the premise for the general plot, then he wrote the ending, then he wrote the rest. [G: So he knew that at the ending-] Okay, he didn't write the ending. He decided what the ending was gonna be. He started like- when he started actually writing the script, he started with the first scene. The fucking "ugrency," that was his his beginning, and it just went downhill from there. [G: The fucking what?] The ugrency scene. Isn't that the first scene of Season 2? [G: Ugrency?] Maggie's misspelled note.

G: Ah. Well, the first scene was the back in the Before the Beginning.

C: Oh, you're right. It was Before the Beginning. You're right.

G: God. And next season, we're probably gonna see Crowley's Fall or something.

C: And that's what I would like.

G: Yeah, I mean, that's what you told me what you think is gonna happen.

C: But I don't actually know. They probably don't have the budget for it, honestly.

G: [laughing] They should just put Crowley in that fucking tunnel but like, change the background. [C laughing] It'll be wonderful. It'll be amazing.

C: They should call up the Supernatural people and be like, "So how'd you do the Empty goop?" [G laughs]

G: You know that gif that like, went around-

C: Yes! The one that people thought was the actual Empty scene [G laughs], where it's like, someone falling through this fiery, tunnel/hole thing? Yeah. They should do that. [G laughs]

G: Punishing Crowley, yeah! [laughs] Good lord.

C: But anyway. Right, you were saying, "Didn't Neil Gaiman write this backwards?"

G: Well, if he wrote it backwards, then he should have known. Honestly, if he wrote it forwards, he should also have known everything.

C: Yeah, you can- it's not like you write a scene, and you can't go back and edit it later. [G laughs] Yeah, with the help of Grey. [G laughs] [G: Exactly.] I mean, this is a pretty banger line. I'm a fan of it. But it doesn't get through to Aziraphale. I mean, he looks kind of stricken, but it's not enough. I'm so miserable. I'm so miserable. Crowley thought that, like, it's- what did you say about how the two of them always thought that they would have forever, but then the holy water and the Apocalypse were both moments when it's like, "Oh, like, time is a real thing, and it's going to end for us sometime maybe." [G: Yeah.] Like, this is another one of those moments, which is why you said the clock starts ticking a little bit later. [G: Yeah. Yeah.] I mean, okay, I guess I'm skipping ahead. But, like, what we end with is that there's no reason for either of them to think they'll see each other ever again. [G: Of course.] So like, yeah. Like. Crowley thought they were going to have a leisurely breakfast at the Ritz and then they'd eventually talk about saving the world or whatever the fuck. And now it's like, "Now you have like, one minutes. Like, five minutes, maybe. And then it's over." [G: Yeah.] Unless you can convince him.

So Crowley goes like, "Tell me you said no." Looks at Aziraphale with these like, searching eyes. [G: Yeah. Music is swelling.] Yeah. And they walk closer, and then at this point, they're like, begging, basically. Like, "Tell me you said no!" And like, eyes are so wide and so desperate, and it's like, crazy! It's crazy what goes on here. 'Cause it's like, yeah, like, literally everything is riding on this. And Crowley knows Aziraphale didn't say no, but it's either like, "Please use this time to just change your mind now that you see what it is doing to me," and also like, again, like, "I cannot continue existing in this universe in the world where you didn't say no, so just don't have done it." But, alas. Aziraphale goes, "If I'm in charge, I can make a difference." Aziraphale, what are your policies? Aziraphale! What's your platform? I just wanna know! [G laughs] What difference do you wanna make? It's so vague! What does that mean? Like, I get what he thinks that can happen. Like, he met Muriel. Muriel loves Earth. It's great here. Gabriel, who was like, so pro-Apocalypse before, like, no longer is, and also like, has fucked off, or whatever. Like, I get thinking that all these individual angels can be changed in some way. But like, what are your policies? I feel like the policies I see in fic are like, "Mandatory earth visits for angels" and things like that for them to understand humanity better. And a suggestion box. [laughs]

G: I mean, the thing is like, Aziraphale can be like, "Okay, I'm gonna be the Supreme Archangel." But obviously, the Metatron has much power over you.

C: Yeah. He thinks the Metatron is on his side right now.

G: That's true. That's true, I suppose. Sometimes I think about the fact that Aziraphale's and Crowley's story are written by humans and are being made by humans and for humans. Maybe they don't need to care humans that much like, honestly. [laughs] Like, we only think that because we're people, or like, human people. But like-

C: But they wanna save the Earth or something.

G: What humanity-centric point of view.

C: That's true. They need to be Murderbot. Have you read The Murderbot Diaries?

G: I've never heard of this podcast. Oh! It's not a podcast?

C: No, it's a series- I mean, Murderbot is like, a construct, so like, part organic part robot. It does want to help humans, but like, its motivations are, you know, not as human-centric as the Good Omens motivations that we desire are, and the fun moment for me is that it meets, like, a bot who wants to destroy all of humanity, and it goes like, "Well, what a stupid idea! If humans weren't around who would make the TV shows that I love to watch so much?" and like, Aziraphale and Crowley can just have that feeling. And they kind of do. [G: No but, that's the whole point of Season 1.] They kind of do. "Well, if Earth is gone, what about my beautiful wines?"

G: I mean, we've discussed this, but like, the reason why that works for Season 1 is because we do see people. [C: Yes.] And like, we do see their values and what they want to do in their lives, and all that crap. Here, like, because it's just Aziraphale and Crowley, what? They have to throw that in for them because whatever whatever? Bleurgh. [C: Bleurgh.] I mean, it's fine if they don't care about humans. [laughing]

C: That's not what we've been saying.

G: What am I even talking about? [laughing] What am I even talking about? Well, my point is like, I can understand a vision where Aziraphale thinks, like, making a difference is like, in a Heaven space instead of like, fundamentally to save human beings. If you think about Aziraphale, like, he is an angel, and I do think it's completely reasonable for him to have like, angelic interests in mind instead of like, human interests because he's an angel! So like, my point is that, maybe like, to Aziraphale, the angelic interest is just fundamentally different from like, how other angels see angelic interests. You know what I mean? It's like-

C: Okay. So like, what is an example policy that he would have?

G: [laughs] Um... I mean, this is a reaction to when you said that one of the policies is like, having angels go to Earth to experience like, what what it's like, to be human. To interact with humans.

C: Yeah, just to understand them better so that Heaven's decisions don't impact them as negatively.

G: That makes sense. But, I don't know. Have offices that have privacy. [C: Yeah.] Be able be able to have stuff. Wow! Anticommunist Grey coming out again. [laughing]

C: Personal property and private property are different- but yeah, we all know that. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. But yeah! I mean the fact that, you know, having a drawer in your desk. [C: Literally.] Being allowed to have stuff in there that other people don't have access to.

C: Yeah, the last time Aziraphale was up there, he saw those glass tables, and he was like, "This cannot stand," and it's haunted his dreams every day since, [G laughs] and finally he can go up there and make a difference and get them different desks.

G: No, exactly. But like, my point, this is like, you heard what Gabriel said, right? Like, "People are demanding me to go to war, as if I make the decision. Of course they're demanding it, because it's what they live for." Well, maybe if they lived for something else, they won't demand it as much.

C: Yeah, yeah. Aziraphale can finally conduct the Heaven choir. [G laughs] [G: "Celestial harmonies." Yeah.] So this is the line where, like, I just wanna talk about how this is the place where Crowley gives up finally. [G: Yeah.] Like, before, it was like, she was trying to argue with Aziraphale, like, on Aziraphale's term. And then it's this is the line that makes them go, "It's Crover." and "I'm just gonna do my thing now, and then I'll just see what you do about it." And I think it is like, this is like, the part of their fights in the past where Crowley would go like, "This is ridiculous. You're ridiculous. I don't know why I'm still talking to you," which, I mean, is what he said at the end of 1.03 [G: Yeah.] and like, storms off, but like, he can't storm off or do any of that currently, because the stakes are way too high and neither of them can come back from it. I feel like people have read this being the line where Crowley gives up as like, "Crowley knows how much Aziraphale wants to do good, so he knows that this isn't like, something he can argue with him about." I'm not too sure about that one. I feel like this is more just like-

G: You know what? [C: What?] This entire time, I think Crowley knows, like, "I'm not changing Aziraphale’s mind."

C: The entire time?

G: Yeah.

C: Oh.

G: I mean, sometimes you just need to say it just to be like, "Let's give it a shot. But like, I know it's not gonna work."

C: At the very beginning of it and everything? Maybe.

G: Yeah. I mean, like, the way it's worded. "I didn't get a chance to say what I was going to say. I think I'd better say it now." is like, "Well, might as well say it."

C: Yeah. But like, earlier, when they're arguing about this job, okay, so Crowley thinks that Aziraphale's just deadset. 'Cause Aziraphale isn't even deadset. Aziraphale’s like, partway to reneging on it before he goes, "Never mind," like, when he and the Metatron are walking out. I feel like Aziraphale always could have decided not to go to Heaven. Like, I feel like there was always that bit of a possibility.

G: I mean, but you and I know he wouldn't. Like, you and I know that he would always go, and I think Crowley does too.

C: Like, it's like, I feel like he would always go, but he also was going to not for a second.

G: But he did, right? [C: He did.] Yeah. He also hesitated in front of that elevator, but he did. So I don't know.

C: That's like, different from him starting a sentence where he's clearly about to decide not to go.

G: What sentence are you fucking talking about?

C: When the Metatron's like, "Let's go now," and Aziraphale stands there, and then he goes, "I think I-" and then he goes, "Nothing at all."

G: I mean, that's a response to like, "Anything you need to take with you," right?

C: The music is swelling enough to make me think that it's like a "I think I've made a mistake in taking this job offer."

G: I mean, obviously, that's the implication.

C: So like, I think there are circumstances under which he would have said no.

G: Okay, give me a circumstance. [C: I-] [laughing] Why are we like this? God. But anyway, go on. Give me a circumstance.

C: I think if he knew that when Gabriel tried to not do the Apo- First, if he knew about the Second Coming and he knew that Gabriel had the position he's being offered right now, and when Gabriel tried not to do the Apocalypse, he got memory-wiped. [G: Mm, yeah.] 'Cause it's like, "Okay, well, obviously, I can't do anything. Great."

G: I mean, the Metatron does say, like, "We're doing the Second Coming." [C: Yes.] And he still steps into that thing

C: Because he wants to stop it. But like, if he knew that someone with his same powers tried to stop it in the past- G: You think? C: Yes? What do you think?

G: You think he stepped into that thing thinking, "And I could stop it"? C: Yeah. G: The Second Coming? C: Yeah. What do you think? G: I don't know. C: Like, "I'm just gonna do it for funsies"?

G: Obviously, he's not thinking, "I'm just gonna do it." [C laughs] I don't know.

C: Well, while he's up there, while they're doing the Second Coming, like, what do you think he'd be doing? [G laughing]

G: Installing a suggestion box. [C laughing] Obviously. [laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah. Scrolling through various furniture catalogs online to find the best desk to replace all the glass ones with.

G: Yeah. [C laughs] Contacting the manufacturer and asking about the schedule of delivery.

C: Yeah, I think he's going there to stop it! [both laughing] I mean, if Season 3 opens and [G: I mean-] Aziraphale literally is just contacting of the desks [G laughs] while the angels do the Second Coming, like, I will do the apology dance. [G laughs] But yeah. I think, yeah, duh.

G: [laughing] No, but I mean like- 'Cause if we are to assume that prior to this, Aziraphale didn't know that the Second Coming was happening, and then the Metatron goes. "Oh, we're gonna do the Second Coming," and then, like, Aziraphale stands by that door, I don't think Aziraphale like, thinks about the Second Coming. [C: Is that-] Like, there's not enough time in that space to be like, "And now I'm gonna think about the fact that the Second is Coming."

C: Yeah, there is. The amount of time it takes to say that sentence is the amount of time that he stands there. [laughs]

G: No! But the standing there isn't just standing there. He glances at Crowley. [laughing] And do you think while he's glancing at Crowley [C laughs], he's thinking, "Ahh. The Second Coming." [both laughing]

C: [laughing] Why did you say it like that? [G laughing] [G: Ahhh!] Yes. Yes, I think he is.

G: No, he's not! No, he's not!

C: I think he's thinking, "I'm doing this for both of us, [G: No, he's not!] and then he's stepping into the elevator."

G: Oh, that's miserable! What a miserable thought!

C: Well, it is the thought that I have in my brain. Okay, [laughs] the line that we were on was [both laughing] "If I'm in charge, I could make a difference," and we were on Crowley's POV on why this is the line that made her turn around. [G laughs] [G: Okay.] Okay, so right, I was touching on the perspective that it's because Crowley knows that Aziraphale's desire to do good will make it impossible for Aziraphale to change his mind now that he's here. I think it's also like, just a "Oh, like, he just fully doesn't understand that there's institutional problems in Heaven, and that he won't be able to do anything as Supreme Archangel." I think Crowley's thinking back on the Apocalypse and the way that Aziraphale, I guess, let her down but then eventually un-let her down during that process. What Aziraphale did during Apocalypse was first like, try to get Gabriel to stop it, and then try to get the Metatron to stop it, and then finally, like, deigning to trust Crowley with that information- is probably how Crowley views that order of things right? [G: Mm.] And it's like, "Well, if now Aziraphale can be Gabriel with the Metatron's support, why would he ever turn to me?" You know?

G: What a selfish fucking thing to think.

C: Well. I mean, it's a bad situation to be in. One could think selfishly.

G: I still think- I still solemnly think that, like, Crowley is just like, "It's over. Well, let's just say my piece." 'Cause like, even like, the line later that, like, the whole "You and me. What do you say?" It's said with such like, casualty that like, "This isn't gonna work." I don't want to be like, "It's because I'm applying it to my own life," but like, I've been in situations where I've like, just straight up been like, "I'm gonna lay everything on the table, and like, you're not gonna change your mind, but like, I need you to know that whatever decision you're making, that's on you. [C: Yeah.] Like, that's your decision. I want something else. If you really want to do this, like, that's on you." And like, I see a lot of what Crowley's doing, like, the rest of this episode as like, "I want you to know that this is your choice you are making. You going to Heaven, I want you to know that this is what I think about it. And this is what I want from you. And if you're not gonna give it to me, then you're not gonna give it to me. But I want you to know that you're, like, willingly choosing that. Like, me standing here by the door of this car watching you is like, me telling you that like, 'I don't agree with what you're doing.' And you stepping into that elevator is not because I left. It's because you're leaving." So yeah. [C: Okay.] My fully based on my personal experience [C laughing] interpretation of the scene. Hell yeah. [C: Hell yeah.] - C: Oh, hi, guys, it's been- [G laughs] I don't know, 8 hours [G: Couple hours, yeah.] 'cause Grey had to sleep. He was feeling eepy.

G: [laughing] Why do you- [laughs] I mean, it's true that every time we stop recording, it's because of me. [C: It's because of you!] But like, you don't have to mention that every single time! [laughs]

C: Okay. How am I gonna- what if our beloved listeners are like, "But why is it 8 hours later? Please, Crystal, fill us in!" [G laughs] You want us to lie? You want me to spread false information?

G: [laughs] No, but like, you're revealing to the audience that my priorities-

C: How terrible! How shameful it is that you sleep!

G: Yeah, my priority is having a restful sleep instead of being an Internet [C: Microcelebrity.] nanocelebrity at all times! [laughs] Yeah. Okay, let's continue. [C: Yeah. It's disgusting.]

Okay, so now we are [C: Yeah.] at Crowley, speaking her mind. Oh, god! [laughs] Okay.

C: That's what Crowley says at first. Crowley says, "Oh god!" [G: Yeah.] She's turned away to compose herself before saying the rest of it, which is craaazy.

G: Like, Crowley goes, "Right. I didn't get the chance to say what I was gonna say. I think I better say it now." [C: Aw.] And then, like, takes like, like, fumbles a little bit with the words, and then takes a deep breath and goes- [C makes pained sound] I can't do this. Can I do this? [C: What?] I can't think I can't do this. I can do this. I can do anything I set my mind to. [laughs] C: I can do it if you want. G: [laughs] No, it's fine.

C: I mean, we can definitely discuss the body language before we get into the actual words, right? [G: Okay, we'll discuss the body language, then.] Crowley's really tense and uncomfortable and like, has like, one hand on like, her hip. [G: Yeah.] And is stretching their spine in a way where it's like, they're trying way too hard to stand up straight, but also due to the hand on the hip, they can't [G: Yeah.], and like, is not looking Aziraphale in the eyes. Like, a lot of like, looking away and down. [G: Yeah! And looking at the ceiling.] I think before Crowley says the words it feels kind of like they're counting to three before they look up again, and, I mean, [laughs] that's crazy! That's crazy. You mentioned during this recording that there've been times been times when Crowley has wanted to say something like this before, which is sort of what prompts the like, "I know if I don't start talking now, I won't ever start talking," right? Like, I wonder how Crowley imagines that this moment would go in all of those times, [G: Yeah.] and I wonder how it compares to this.

G: I mean, obviously, Crowley thought it wouldn't go well, 'cause why else would, you know, they stop. Would they not say. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] So maybe this is not too far off.

C: I think that these circumstances are unique, though. I think that the past times it's like, "It won't go well," it's just shit like, "Well, don't fucking say that!" And then they don't talk for like, ten years.

G: I don't- it would have been a completely different confession if it wasn't like, Crowley, like, just putting it all out there just in case Aziraphale changes his mind.

C: I mean, sometimes, when you've tried every single argument you can think of, and you think it won't work, then I mean, all you're left with is like, "But don't you know what this will do to me? [G: Yeah.] Like, I'm the one experiencing this right now, and like, my life is going to be unbearable. Do you care? Please care."

G: You know, I feel like Crowley is like, "If I don't say this now, then I haven't done everything to can try to convince you to stay."

C: But he doesn't say "I love you."

G: Well. Maybe he doesn't! [laughing]

C: I mean, there are some things that are too sacred to put in a last-ditch attempt to get someone to stay. [G: Yeah.] Even if you think that it is one of the things that- I don't- It's like, it's unlikely to work. And like, maybe it could work but-

G: I mean, you say here what Crowley is saying is, like, "Do you see what this will do to me?" but I don't even think that's really what Crowley is trying to say. It's more like-

C: I think that's what the kiss is more of.

G: That's what the kiss is, of course.

C: Yeah, this is a different thing. You're right. I like the way that Crowley words all these things and like, everything. It's like, he's like, laying out facts is sort of how the sentences are structured. [G: Yes. Exactly.] So it's it's kind of still like, an- it's not really an argument. It's like, it could be the beginning of an argument if she pushed, but she doesn't push. It's just like, presenting an alternative and like, begging the universe that these facts will be enough for Aziraphale to stay.

G: Yeah. Because every single thing is a fact. I mean, even the "And I would like to spend-" it's not like- [C: There's no question.] He's not even saying, like, "Please spend it with me." Like, there's no question. It's just like, "And this is what I want. [C: Declarative statement.] So what do you think?" Yeah, "What do you think about it?" [C: Yeah.] [pained sound] Okay. So the lines are- [C: You ready to go line-by-line now?] Yes. "We've known each other a long time. [C exhales] We've been on this planet a long time." And I know we mentioned it, but like, this argument is like, so Earth-centered and so 6000 years-centered. [C: Yeah, yeah.] 'Cause "We've known each other a long time" could be like, "We've known each other since angelhood," [C: Yeah.] but like, the planet is like, "That's-" you know. "That's what's important."

C: Yeah. And I wonder, like, what exactly about that is she drawing on? Like, that they have a shared love of Earth, or that they've both, like, learned free will from humanity, or like, just that they have been like, physically proximate to each other for so long, or like, everything or other things that I missed?

G: I feel like the "We've been on this planet for a long time," like, "We've been here a long time, and we've been here together." You know. It's like- I mean, 'cause that's what the next lines point to. It's like- yeah.

C: Yeah. And it also points to like, "We've been here without the interference of either of our sides. [G: Ah, yeah, that's true.] So why would we actually need them?"

G: Ah, that's interesting, because, like, you know, the way Aziraphale thinks it is "Go back to Heaven," and it's like-

C: Yeah. No. Like, "This is our home." [G: Yeah.] 'Cause Aziraphale is also viewing Heaven as Crowley's original home [G: Yeah.] in the way he presents the angel offer. So yeah, it is like, a "No, but like, this is where we belong." [G: Yeah, "It's where we'eve been."] I also wanna mention Aziraphale’s face while this thing starts. [G laughs painedly] [G: Yeah.] Like, he just looks so confused and surprised. [G: Like, "Why are you telling me this?"] "Why are you saying all- what is this? What are you even talking about?" And- [pained laugh] that- Well. Well.

G: Yeah. What's sick to me is like, this entire beginning, like, Aziraphale’s face is like, "Where is this going? Where's this going?" and the moment he realizes where it's going is in like, you know, "We don't need Heaven. We don't need Hell. [both] They're toxic!" [both laugh] But like, in that part, that's when Aziraphale realizes, and he just starts like, shaking his head "No no no." [C: Shaking his head!] Yeah. [C: It's crazy!] 'Cause I made an AMV, right? And then that one, like, that part is like, followed before the like, "Go off together. Alpha Centauri! No one would even notice us!" And in that scene, like, Aziraphale also does the same thing. Just like, shaking his head like that. [C: Oh. Oh, I'm miserable.] And it's crazy to me that like, when we get to that part, like, Aziraphale isn't even listening anymore. Just like when Crowley shows up to propose Alpha Centauri, like, the moment like, those words come out of Crowley's mouth, like, Aziraphale just completely shuts down, like, his ears and is just not listening anymore and is just thinking, "No no no no no no no!" And it's like, did you even hear? Are you even hearing what Crowley is proposing here? Like, you know what I mean. Which is like, why the "You and me. What do you say?" part like, really gets to me. Because, like, Aziraphale is already shaking his head. [C: Yeah.] Like, Crowley must already know that, like, Aziraphale does not think this, does not agree with this, and probably won't change his mind. But, like, Crowley still asks. Well, it's crazy.

C: I like that it went "We've been on this planet for a long time. I mean, [both] you and me." I just- I think it's crazy that Crowley feels the need to specify. Like, who did they think Aziraphale could mistake the "we" for. Because my first thought is just that in- [G: Like, humanity. Like, life.] Yeah, yeah, it could definitely mean humanity. I think that is like, first thought. But I guess second thought is that like, in Season 1, sometimes Aziraphale would say "you" about Crowley as a proxy for Hell [G: Yeah!], and like, Crowley would say "you" to Aziraphale as a proxy for Heaven.

G: Yeah. "You're the bad guys"! He just did this this scene.

C: Right. So now- and I feel like in the past, Crowley would never- like, in Season 2, Crowley would never have to specify what "we" means. But now he's like, "Well, maybe when Aziraphale hears me say 'we,' Aziraphale thinks 'Hell' instead of the two of us."

G: [pained sound] I mean, isn't there, like, a scene in the book where, like, Crowley says, like, "We," and Aziraphale thinks it's him and Crowley, and Crowley has to say, "No no no, it's about Hell and I."

C: Yeah, about Satanists and shit. Yeah.

G: The next line is, "I could always rely on you." Untrue. [laughs] "You could always rely on me." [C: True.] A slightly more true, but probably also not that true.

C: It's at these lines that Aziraphale starts looking nervously around the two of them. Like, he does a quick glance [G: Like, his eyes are flitting around, yeah.] out the window. And I just- I don't know. I think it's so crazy that, like, these instincts that, like, have been honed in the last 1000 years of the arrangement are still here because this is such a tense moment that Aziraphale's just falling back on the like, "Shit! What if someone hears? What if we get in trouble?" even though, like, the literal Metatron already knows that he and Crowley had a de facto partnership. [G: Yeah.] Like, wow. I'm miserable.

G: It's touching to me that Crowley thinks of them this way. [C: Yeah.] [C makes pained laugh] As like, "We can rely on each other." And like, I joke, right, like, "That's not true." But to Crowley, maybe it is true. I mean, Aziraphale pretty much left him dangling last season, but he did come back. [C: Yeah.] [laughs] The thing about this scene is like, I mean, what happens this episode is like, as you said, there's just- like, there's no conceivable reason to think that Aziraphale will be back. It's none. There's no like, conceivable way to think that they're gonna see each other again. [C: Yeah.] And like, maybe that's the difference. I mean, like, the thing about the, like, you know, "Go off together!" scene is like, Crowley does come back the next day. And then when the Alpha Centauri scene happened, like, Crowley ends it with, "I will go off to the stars, and I won't even think about you!" But he doesn't go off to the stars.

C: Yeah. And Aziraphale calls him like, an hour later, [G: Yeah!] like, not even like, thinking that Crowley's left.

G: Yeah. And like, Crowley like, didn't even. Like, didn't even leave, you know? So like- [C: Yeah. It was just a thing that she was saying.] And also it's like, for example, the 80 years that they didn't talk, but they both knew they were still on Earth, I think. [C: Yeah, I think so.] They're still like, "If I change my mind, I can find Aziraphale." And in fact, Crowley did find Aziraphale. But here it's like, it's a complete lockout. I mean, Crowley can go to Heaven, but [C: Maybe.] will probably need to trick Muriel into doing it again. [laughs] You know, it's like, wait, so like, we are to assume that, like, Crowley, like, can be in Heaven, but like, it's almost impossible to get in, right? Like, that's the implication. [C: Yeah.] Unless, like, he is brought there. [C: Have an angel with you, yeah.] Oh, yeah, or you get dragged from St. James's Park. Yeah. So here, it's not just like, an emotional barrier that Aziraphale is putting up. Like, if Aziraphale does leave, it's also a physical barrier, too. [C: Yeah.] And I think that's what makes it so different.

C: Yeah. Yeah. It's also about- I mean, "I could always rely on you. You could always rely on me," like, whether it's true or not depends on their trust in each other, not necessarily how much the other person follows through on that trust. [G: What do you mean?] I mean, I'm saying, like, Crowley can say that even if Aziraphale- even if we live in a universe where Aziraphale lets Crowley down every single time, Crowley can still say that he can always rely on Aziraphale, because, like, I feel like relying on someone just means that you trust them, mostly. They don't actually have to pay you back. You can still say you rely on them.

G: I think that's different. Because that would be more on the like, "I trust you, and you trust me." But like, "rely" does imply some kind of like, followthrough.

C: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose so. They do always trust each other, generally, though. [G: Yeah.] The fucking "Quite sure." in "A Companion to Owls," like, in their third ever meeting. Crazy. Crazy shit. I don't- when is a time that Crowley's put their faith in Aziraphale? Is it just sort of every time that they've sort of like, stood back and like, let Aziraphale come to conclusions by himself?

G: I mean, in theory, in 1941, but like, only in theory. In action, I don't think that's true. That's a lie, they're lying to us. I mean, "I could always rely on you." I mean, the Apocalypse. Like I said, like, Aziraphale dillydallied, but like, came back, and I think you can look at that like, "Yeah, you, you know, you wavered, but I knew I could always rely on you." And he goes, "We're a team. A group. Group of the two of us." Just like Hall and Oates. [laughs] [C: Just like what?] Just like Hall and Oates! [laughs] [C: Um. Those are...] You don't know who Hall and Oates are?

C: "My Boyfriend's Gay"? Those people?

G: I don't think that's- no, I just know them as like, singers. They're like, they're a duo who sings together. [C: Oh, never mind. Totally different thing. Okay.] They're a pop duo. [C laughs] They're the- I think they sing "Out of Touch." [singing] "I'm out of touch, you're out of time." [C: Oh.] And they literally are! [laughs] Out of touch, and out of time. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Just like Hall and Oates.

C: Yeah, just like Hall and Oates. I liked the use of the word "group" instead of like, you know, the previous language was, "We're on our own side," but like being on your own side implies that you're fighting for something or against something, but like, a group could just be yeah, like, companionship and being together.

G: Yeah. And the fact that it changes from "team" to "group." [C: Yeah.] 'Cause like, "team" still implies that kind of like-

C: Yeah, working together towards a common goal.

G: Yeah. And "group" is just "We're together." And goes- oh my god! This is the part where Crowley's voice starts breaking.

C: Yeah. And before that, like, after Crowley says this, Aziraphale’s eyes, you know, are still darting back and forth, and he keeps on like, moving his mouth a little like he's about to say something, but he doesn't. And it's like, he doesn't seem to know what to say, but he just thinks that Crowley should stop, is like, the vibe of all the mouth movements, and well, misery.

G: Yeah. I think about the fact that, like, the voice break line is "And we've spent our existence pretending that we aren't." [C: Yeah.] And we don't see it from Crowley's- like, we don't see Crowley when this line is said. It's just Aziraphale. As you said, like, his eyes are like, flipping around and stuff, but like, the moment that line ends- because Crowley's voice cracks at the "we aren't," and like, the moment that happens, like, Aziraphale squints his eyes like "What is this?" like, you know. [C: Yeah.] With that- I don't know. I feel like at the beginning of this monologue, like, Aziraphale is just confused. And this is the part where it's like, "Oh, this is a big deal. We're having a big deal conversation. Crowley's saying something that's a big deal right now." I don't know. I feel like- Do you think for Aziraphale, like, it means something. Or like, not something, I guess. I'm sure it means something. But like, it means as much to Aziraphale as it does to Crowley? Like, does it affect Aziraphale as much as it affects Crowley? The whole like, having to pretend that we're not acquainted? Because, like, in most history, we see like, Aziraphale doing it, and then Crowley just standing there and being like, "Get on with the play." Aziraphale is very rarely the receiver of "Oh, we're not friends! [C: That's true.] We don't know each other. We're not acquainted." I feel like to Aziraphale, it's not that big a deal 'cause like, he fully understands that "Oh, when I say it-"

C: Yeah, "I don't mean it. Crowley knows that too."

G: Or maybe like, also, he says it, and he's like, "I'm trying to mean it," and, like, you know, doesn't think of it deeper than that. But like, to Crowley, who hears it, is it like, you know, like, to Crowley, it's like, "We're not just pretending for the outsider. We're pretending for ourselves, too." That's why the "We've spent our entire existence pretending that we aren't," is like, interesting to me because it's delivered as like, "To each other." [C: Hmm. Yeah.] And like, I feel like if Aziraphale says this kind of line, Aziraphale would think of it as "And we're pretending to [both] the outside world, to everyone else, that we aren't, like, a group, a team." But like, to Crowley, it's like, this is a truth that we can't admit to each other.

C: Also, just the use of the word "existence." [laughs] "Our entire existence." Like, these 6000 years really are, like, literally everything to her. Like, this is what his life is like. None of that shit before matters. [G: Yeah.] And again, like, Aziraphale being like, "Well, we can go back to how it was before," like, it has to hurt a lot when like, these 6000 years are Crowley's entire existence. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, no, you're right. It is like, he is talking about pretending to themselves. I mean, does that imply that Crowley's also been trying to pretend to himself? 'Cause I feel like we've always said that he's the one who's known the whole time and is more emotionally open. But also, like, you know, Season 2 does seem to be implying that, like, they wouldn't really let themselves think of Aziraphale romantically until Nina said that.

G: Well, I don't know, actually. That's an interesting question. Does Crowley think this of them?

C: I just assumed that Crowley wasn't ever really pretending for himself, but like, maybe from just the way that they act and speak, but maybe every time they act and speak like that, it's just 'cause they can't help it, not because they're not trying to help it.

G: I mean, the thing is like, we see Aziraphale like, interact with Heaven a lot more than we see Crowley interact with Hell. So like, we don't really know what like, Crowley says to Hell about Aziraphale. [C: That's true.] I mean, like, with Hastur, when Hastur goes, "Your best friend Aziraphale," like, Crowley doesn't deny it.

C: Yeah, I mean, Crowley just doesn't talk about Aziraphale.

G: To anyone, yeah. [C laughs painedly] So I don't think it's something that we can glean. [laughs] Big fan of the word "glean."

C: I mean, pretending to yourself is different from pretending to your bosses. [G: Yeah.] I guess I'd like to discuss where the pain of pretending for 6000 years comes from. Like, was it- how confusing was it? Like, were there times when Crowley was like, "I think Aziraphale really does mean it when he says that," or like, was it like, the stress of having to look over your shoulder and like- I don't know. What was the biggest piece of the pie?

G: I think the big piece of the pie is like, not being able to say it or talk about it. Like, "There's just so many things that we can't like, say out loud." [C: Yeah.] Like, that gets to you. And also even, like, I think I've said it for other things in before, like, there's only so much that you can keep telling yourself, you know. I think I said it in like, 2.01, actually, that like, Crowley believes that they're a team. Like, you know, the whole "You dooo. You do like me." Crowley's self-assured in that way. But like, self-assurance only gets you so far.

C: Yeah, you do still need to hear it sometimes.

G: And then Crowley goes, "I mean, the last few years, not really." And then goes, "And I would like to spend-" but like, couldn't continue the sentence, and just makes a noise. It's crazy! Like, "We've spent our existence pretending that we aren't. And I would like to spend-" [C inhales] I mean, obviously, the continuation of that sentence is "our existence." [C: "Our existence." Together?] Being a group of the two of us? Yeah,, in full awareness that we're a group of the two of us, just like Hall and Oates. [C laughs] C: [laughing] You can't keep saying that! G: Why?

C: I mean, you can. I mean, it's funny. Okay, so, well-

G: [laughs] Should I say "Just like TVXQ, the Korean pop duo" as well?

C: [laughs] Sure. Sure, you can do a new music duo each time.

G: Just like Yunho and Changmin from TVXQ.

C: So yeah, the collecting themsef, like, involves just looking up and like, sort of like, taking some breaths with like, her mouth open, and that's like, the breaths that you take when you're trying not to cry, and that's also like, the looking up and blinking that you do when you're trying to keep tears from coming out of your eyes. [G: Yeah.] And that's certainly something. Well, okay, I think first- I think just to circle back to "I mean, the last few years, not really." [G: Yeah.] Like, they did have 4 years. Like, we didn't see it. But like, they did have 4 years. We've seen things change. We've seen them be more comfortable with physical affection, and we've seen Crowley just ready to like, take his sunglasses off every time he and Aziraphale are alone. I feel like if they if they didn't have any outside interference, I think they would have grown towards what they both wanted eventually. But now, they just can't.

G: Yeah. Now, the clock is literally ticking.

C: They had so many problems during those 4 years, and like, I don't know. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten there. Because, like, Crowley is so satisfied with just keeping the status quo static and quo-y [G: Yeah.], like, that's what the extremely alcoholic breakfast at the Ritz is about. I don't- Aziraphale’s sort of been the one who's been trying to move them forward, I think.

G: God. I said earlier that like, Aziraphale already thinks that, like, you know, [C: Thinks that they're together.] that they're a group of the two of us, just like Simon and Garfunkel. [C laughs] But that analysis comes from this confession, which, if we are to believe what I've been saying earlier, like, this wasn't supposed to be what Crowley says. This is like, him, now, begging Aziraphale as the circumstances change.

C: Wait, sorry, what do you mean about- what do you think Crowley was gonna ask that was different from this again?

G: 'Cause like, here, the ask of "And I would like to spend... the rest of existence together" is like, that comes from the fact that Aziraphale is now saying, "I'm going to leave."

C: Well, Aziraphale isn't saying "I'm going to leave." Aziraphale is saying, "We're going to leave."

G: Yeah. And Crowley's saying, "I'm not gonna come with you. So either you leave or we spend our existence together here."

C: I guess- Are you saying that Crowley thought- I don't think Crowley knew that they were spending the rest of their existences together, though.

G: Yeah, but like, what you're saying, like, status quo. Status quo. Status quo.

C: Yeah. The status quo takes maintaining.

G: Yeah, but like, you know, Crowley has some semblance of "We are in the position where we want to be, some of it." I mean, that's the point of the "I mean, the last few years, not really." "We're already-" like, "We're done pretending." And then, like, we can, you know, keep on going.

C: Yeah, no, I suppose so. But I guess I just- I feel like I read this as sort of just like a- well, yeah, they have already spent the entirety of their existences so far together, but it's like, I guess I read this as like not too dissimilar from what she was gonna say in the first place. And I think that what she was gonna ask for in the first place was just like, confirmation that like, "What I think is happening, is it actually happening? And like, can we like, actually like, out loud make a commitment to each other."

G: And become a group of the two of us, just like Wham! [C laughs]

C: Right, we said earlier that everything that's happened so far has been like, a statement of facts. [G: Yeah.] This is the closest thing to a statement of that goes beyond a statement of fact, [G: Yeah.] like, this is only time that Crowley's actual feelings or wants have come in. Like, Crowley didn't say that, like, spending our entire existences pretending that we're not has been like, awful, it's just like, implied in her tone of voice. But like, "I would like" is the first time an emotion comes in verbally. [G: Yeah.] The fact that he says "I would like," [G: Not "I want," yeah.] "I would like," it's not a strong thing. And it's not "I want," and it's not "I need," which is what Aziraphale goes for later. [G: Oh, god!] It's very tame. It's very like- I don't know. "I'm asking this in the least pressure-y way possible."

G: Because this scene, right, like, it's painted as like, Crowley baring his soul. And it's like, it's such high levels of vulnerability. And like, it is! Like, you look at the words, and like, yeah, it is a very vulnerable thing to say. But like, Crowley's still trying so so so so so hard to deliver it with some casualty. Like, "I would like to spend..." "You and me, what do you say?" that line is delivered with so much casualty. Is that true? I think casualty is like, people who died. [both laugh] [C: Casualness?] Well, maybe there are people who died in this one. [C: Yeah.] Casually. Delivered so casually.

C: Yeah, and like, he just can't do it. Like, he can't be any more vulnerable than they are right now. [G: Yeah.] And that's crazy. We don't even get an Aziraphale reaction shot to this last one. This is the closest thing to an "I love you" Crowley has ever said, and we don't even get to see Aziraphale's face.

G: Crowley doesn't either. Like, Crowley, like, barely looks at Aziraphale in this part. [C: Yeah.] Crowley goes, "I mean, if Gabriel and Beelzebub can do it, go off together, then we can."

C: Okay, this is like, Crowley was about to say the most vulnerable thing that they've ever said in their life, and then can't do it, [G: Yeah.] and then switches to this instead. I think this is where it gets closer to like, trying to like, do an actual debate thing for a second, but not quite.

G: I mean, it's crazy to me because, like, it's a precedence. Prior to this, who is Crowley gonna point to that has the same situation as them? Like, absolutely fucking nobody. Unless Shacks and Michael are secretly shagging in the back rooms. [C laughs] But like, I don't know. The fact that this is the thing that Crowley latches onto. I mean, obviously, for very obvious reasons of "It's an angel and a demon."

C: Yeah. Implies that he thinks that Aziraphale’s main objection to them is that they're an angel and a demon. And like, it kind of is.

G: Yeah. I mean, that's a reasonable thing to think because, like, Aziraphale just said, like, "I can turn you into an angel," so.

C: Yeah. The thing is like, when Gabriel and Beelzebub like, went off together, the person who was making faces was Aziraphale, right? [G: What do you mean?] Like, Crowley wasn't really reacting to the two of them, but like, Aziraphale was like, "Oh, this is so sweet! This is so beautiful!" like, puts the fucking arm out to hold Crowley, does the whole, like, soppy, looking into his eyes thing, or like, trying to look at him while Crowley is arguing about their flat thing. Like, Aziraphale’s the one who saw Gabriel and Beelzebub and went, "They're just like us for real." Like, how does that apply to where Aziraphale is now? And also, so what was Crowley thinking when they saw Gabriel and Beelzebub? 'Cause like, in that moment, I don't think Aziraphale was like, "We have to go to Heaven to be together" or any bullshit. [G: Yeah.] Like, it's just like, "Isn't that lovely? And we are just like them for real."

G: Probably, in Aziraphale’s head, this is like- like, them going to Heaven together is closer to what Gabriel and Beelzebub did. You know? [C: Huh.] "We're gonna be together." Because what part of the Gabriel and Beelzebub story touched Aziraphale the most, and what part touched Crowley the most? [C: Right.] And like, for Crowley, it seems to be the going off together and leaving Heaven and Hell behind. [C: Mm-hm.] And, I don't know, for Aziraphale, it's like, "They're an angel... and a demon... and they're in love!" [C laughs] I don't know. I feel like they took different things from that

C: Yeah, no, it's interesting that you say that Aziraphale views them going to Heaven together as like, basically the same thing 'cause I think, like, something that I have in my notes later is that Crowley says, "On our own side," but Aziraphale, like, hears it as just like, "On the same side." And those aren't the same things. [G: Yeah. Those are not the same things. Yeah.] Yeah. Okay. So another question I have about this line. "Go off together." What does that mean?

G: I don't know. I mean, the last time Crowley uses it is, "Go off... together? Listen to yourself." The implication is always like, leave Earth.

C: See, that's how a lot of people read it, but I don't think that's the case here. It can't be.

G: Crowley starts this argument with "We've been on Heaven [C: We've been on this planet.] a long time." I mean, "We've been on Earth for a long time."

C: Yeah. And later, Crowley says, "You can't [both] leave this bookshop." [G: Yeah.] So what is "Go off together"?

G: [laughs] Crowley's like, "Run away with me! [C: To a vacation in France.] To the back room of this bookshop!" [both laugh] Yeah. "Let's elope together! To like, your kitchen area where you do your hot chocolate."? Why not? [C laughs]

C: Yeah. But I feel like a lot of people have read this as Crowley wanting to leave Earth [G: No.], and furthermore, Crowley wanting to abandon Earth [G: No.], like, knowing that the Second Coming is coming. I feel like I did play into that belief for a while, until like, this week's rewatches when I was like, "Wait, that doesn't jive with the rest of the arguments she's making."

G: Also, like, you know, Crowley is already well aware that Aziraphale wants to- like, wouldn't want to leave Earth when Apocalypse happens, you know? So I don't think he would think that here. Like, I don't think that will be his first thought upon learning about the Second Coming, that, like, we should leave Earth.

C: I don't think that that would be his first thought. I think there is some merit to like, it was, gonna be like, "I tell you that I love you, we go for breakfast at the Ritz. Later, I tell you about the Second Coming, and we like, try to stop it together." But like, "Oh, no! You were like, just recruited by Heaven, and I think you may actually know about the Second Coming, and you seemed like, fine with going off to Heaven and just trying to ameliorate the effects as the new leader, so like, scrap that plan. Let's just- I'm going back into Alpha CentaurI emergency mode. Let's go."

G: It's fascinating how we're reading this scene fully as like, Aziraphale and Crowley. But if we are to, you know, apply the whole "But what did Neil Gaiman think?" I think Neil Gaiman was like-

C: Oh. Ew! Who's that guy? Ew! [G laughs] I don't want him here! Ew!

G: No, but like, I think Neil Gaiman was just like, "Oh, they said in Season 1, so nice callback." [C laughs] [C: God, I hate him.] I mean, we were probably gonna get into it in the nightingale line. [C: Sure. Yeah.] I don't think as dreadfully of the nightingales scene as you, but okay, that's analyze things.

C: Neil Gaiman isn't here. To me. [both laugh]

G: Has left the building, even, yeah. He will never darken our doorstep ever again.

C: Yeah, except when Season 3 hits, I suppose. I think Crowley doesn't mean it as "leave Earth." Does Aziraphale read it as “leave Earth”?

G: I don't think so. Even if he did think it here, it's like, the line after is like, "You can't leave this bookshop," so, you know, "Gabriel and Beelzebub can do it," blah blah blah, "then we can. Just the two of us. We don't need Heaven, we don't need Hell. [both laughing] [both] They're toxic!" [C laughing] Wonderful line. I like, I laughed out loud when it happened the first time.

C: [laughing] I also laugh out loud every time it happens. Yeah, the "just the two of us thing," like, it makes me sad- [G, singing: "We can make it if we try, just the two of us."] So true. [G: Crowley should have danced to that song.] - that Crowley's idea of wedded bliss with Aziraphale- I mean, "just the two of us," I know that doesn't necessarily mean "We can't have any friends," but they don't have any friends. [laughs]

G: Yeah. And also the whole thing about like, "We don't need Heaven, we don't need Hell." is like, one, bit hypocritical of Crowley, given that [C: Yeah.] "You've been working with Hell, Crowley." Also like, because the thing is, like, "We don't need to Heaven, we don't need Hell," like, you know, "As an angel and a demon, we don't need Heaven, we don't need Hell." But like, what the fuck do you do then? You do need to do things with your life. Like, you'll get bored. You'll be lonely. So like, what are they gonna do?

C: I mean, they've been hanging out. Aziraphale has so many little papers to write on in his desk. [laughs]

G: Yeah, pretend to read as, you know, Crowley comes in, so he can pretend to be sexy and fresh and fun.

C: He's got candelabras to hold. I think Crowley does need to find something to do. [G: Yeah. Crowley needs something to do. Uber driver.] He can figure it out on his own time. And I think part of the reason Crowley hasn't found anything to do is because he's been anticipating the Second Coming for these 4 years.

G: Oh, that's so sad. That's so sad. That's so sad to think about.

C: Yeah. I think maybe, finally, after the all of them versus all of us- Oh, that's so miserable! [laughs] Sorry, I just remembered- Yeah, Crowley called the Apocalypse 2.0 "all of them versus all of us," and now, like, Aziraphale is part of the "them." If Crowley thought like, "These 4 years, I'm just waiting for it to happen again," I feel like only after the "all of them versus all of us" is over would she feel relaxed enough. It's also the way that Gabriel and Beelzebub are like, the model relationship right now, when, like, they went and fucked off to an uninhabited binary star, where, like, they will divorce immediately, I know it in my heart. I think perhaps you would get lonely, and that you cannot orbit each other forever.

G: I mean, that's what- you know, part of what I'm saying- like, I think I said it earlier this episode, that like, Heaven is gonna give Aziraphale some form of happiness, and you were like, "I mean, he didn't immediately go, so he doesn't think that, like, Heaven is gonna make him intrinsically happy." But like, this is a different thing. Like, that's job happiness. And this is like, I don't know, like, romance, whatever, personal life happiness. And like, those are different things. [C: Yeah. Hashtag work-life balance.] Exactly. Basically, at the end of this episode, Aziraphale chooses work over life balance. [both laugh]

C: I know what you mean. I still think that he's mostly there to stop the Second Coming.

G: I'm not convinced.

C: What do you think that smile at the end of the credits was?

G: It's just you trying to convince yourself that you're doing the right thing.

C: It looks like, verging on an evil smile, though. [G: It's not!] He's scheming. He's plotting.

G: He's not scheming! [C: He's scheming and plotting!] He's thinking, "I don't wanna cry. I don't wanna cry. I don't wanna cry. [C laughing] I don't wanna cry." That's his scheme. Like, not crying, that's his scheme. [C: His epic plan to not cry.] The way I say it makes it sound like I think Aziraphale's on board with the Second Coming, but I mean it more as, I don't think like, in that moment, like, Aziraphale has like, plans about it or everything, you know.

C: Yeah. But I still don't think that job happiness is like, his primary motivation during that last few steps to the elevator. Maybe, like, earlier.

G: Okay, we've said that like, Crowley thinks she's never gonna see Aziraphale again. [C: Yeah.] Aziraphale thinks he's gonna see Crowley again.

C: I don't know. Gabriel pops down to Earth whenever, but I think Aziraphale knows that Crowley doesn't want to see him again. [G: Does he? Does Crowley not want to see Aziraphale again?] I think that that's what Aziraphale thinks. I think that Crowley will think this for a year or so, and then not think it.

G: Yeah. I mean, I was reading Antigone the other day, just like I do pretty much every six months of my life, but the line that Haemon tells Antigone when Antigone is like, "I'm so sorry I was so horrible to you last night when we had that fight," and Haemon goes, "The moment you slammed the door, I already have already forgiven. Your perfume was still lingering in the room, and I have already forgiven you." And I was like, "Aw, does Crowley think this?" Crowley is upset at the end of the episode. Obviously. Like, in that car ride, like, that's an upset face. I do wonder, like, if Aziraphale comes back, how Crowley would act. I don't think Crowley would beg Aziraphale, like, you know, like, he did in 1.04. But like, I don't think Crowley's thinking like, "And I'll never forgive Aziraphale ever again."

C: I mean, immediately after, like, maybe. I feel like Crowley is an impulsive person, and like, a very emotions-driven person at the end of fights. [G: That's true. That's true.] It's, you know, "You're on your own." "When I'm off in the stars, I'm not even gonna think about you." I think that at least for the first day, first week, first month, that is what's gonna happen. [G: Yeah.] They didn't talk for 80 years after the holy water fight, and that was a mutual choice.

G: Well, maybe they would be mad at each other. [C: Yeah, I think they would be.] Maybe, Crowley will forget what Aziraphale smells like, and he still wouldn't have forgiven him. Well-

C: We were still on the [laughing] "They're toxic." [G: "Just the two of us."] [both laughing] "They're toxic!"

G: Okay, "We don't need Heaven, we don't need Hell, they're toxic!" [C laughing] Fun stuff. I have no commentary for this fucking line. I just think it's funny as hell. I mean, do you think like, Crowley saw like, an Instagram infographic about mental health and like, toxic relationships [C laughs] [C: Yes.], and was like, "Yeah, just like Heaven and Hell."

C: It was the same one where they learned to count to 10. [G: Yeah! Oh my god, that's so true.] They saw one Instagram infographic about mental health in their life, and they're like, "Alright, I've done it."

G: And then, you know, "We need to get away from them. Just be an us." And like, that "be an us," Crowley attaches themself into this turn of phrase. An "us."

C: Crowley's been pleading this whole time, but Crowley's really pleading here. [G: Yeah.] And it's a lot. Right. Aziraphale started shaking his head after "They're toxic," but Aziraphale gives like, a more definitive shake of his head on this one. The thing is that like, in "A Companion to Owls," Aziraphale's so stuck on how lonely it is to be on your own side. [G: Yeah.' And Crowley thinks that them being an us is a way to escape that loneliness. But like, I don't think that's enough for Aziraphale.

G: Like, maybe Aziraphale thinks, "We're just gonna be lonely together."

C: Aziraphale wants to have connections outside of the two of them, I guess, but also like, does he? [G: Aziraphale?] Yeah. Like, he also doesn't have friends. He doesn't seem to want to have friends that much.

G: I mean, I feel like Aziraphale doesn't want to be lonely, [C: Yeah.] but I also cannot see a situation where Aziraphale thinks of the solution to this as to have friends. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, exactly. Like, what is his ideal support network?

G: I think Aziraphale just wants to have a nice meal, have a nice read in the afternoon, walk around town being all smiley, have nice clothes, have nice things, and then occasionally, Crowley would be there to tell about the nice things happening. [C sniffles] [C: Yeah.] You need to have multiple friends. [C: You do.] Like, I vehemently think you need to have multiple friends.

C: Yeah. Even if you're really obsessed with one person, you still need to have multiple friends. [G: Yeah.] Also, you need to have friends to tell about how you're [overlapping] obsessed with the one person. [G: Exactly!] It's very important.

G: Like, if Aziraphale had another friend who he could be like, "And oh my god! Like, Crowley looks so good, [C laughs] with the leather vest situation and thousand accessories today," like, I think it would fix a lot of their problems. Not all of it, but a lot.

C: Yeah, yeah, I mean, we've talked in the past how like, they've never been able to talk to anyone else about the other person because [G: Yeah.] it's a secret that they even know the other person, so they have no space to process their relationship except with each other, where they won't fucking do it, or alone, which they can't do, due to their various incompetencies. Okay, Aziraphale already thinks that they're together in a way, right? And Crowley says that we need to "Get away with them and just be an us," which I guess, I mean, okay, first of all, I guess this is- part of this is Aziraphale realizing Crowley never viewed them as together during this time, right? What does that do to him? I guess 'cause for Aziraphale, these 4 years were like, them being an us, and like, they've had this 4 year trial run of like, no Heaven, no Hell, just us for 4 years. [G: Yeah.] And like, it wasn't... enough. Like, it wasn't. [G: They didn't seem to be as happy as they could be. Yeah.] Yeah. Like, first, Crowley was the one who kept ties to Hell. Second, like, they weren't able to meet each other's emotional needs. Like, Crowley didn't feel comfortable telling Aziraphale that like, they didn't have an apartment. Aziraphale lied about like Shax on the car. Crowley never ate any of the food Aziraphale offered. Crowley didn't really engage at the ball. Crowley had the whole, like, you know, "I've carved this existence out for myself" thing, and then left and said, "You're on your own with this one," and didn't come back during demon bookshop attack even though he promised. And I mean, part of that is ameliorated by like, "Oh, Crowley didn't think we had this commitment yet. So like, maybe it's okay that, like, they did all that stuff." But like, it's also like, "Well. I mean, this was our chance to do all the things that she's asking for, and like, it didn't work. Like, he's still depressed. And like, yeah, we weren't able to meet each other's emotional needs." [G: Yeah.] And like, we've been asking, like, "How'd they not get together during these 4 years already?" but the characters are probably asking themselves the same questions, and, like, that, introduces doubt into the strength of your relationship too. So like, I get why "We should just be an us" would scare Aziraphale, 'cause it's like, "Well, that didn't work. We can't do that that well."

G: Well. [C: Well.] This whole tirade ends with, "You and me. What do you say?" [C exhales] And I mean, that's not even given like, breathing room. This is what I'm talking about. Like, the moment Crowley goes, like, "We don't need Heaven, we don't need Hell," Aziraphale already is thinking about what he's gonna say next, you know. Like, he's not listening to what the fuck Crowley is saying here now. 'Cause like, "You and me, what do you say?" Immediately, like, Aziraphale- like, the sentence is not yet even done. Like, [laughs] the perfume of the word "say" hasn't even left the room yet. And Aziraphale's like, "Come with me! To Heaven."

C: Aziraphale steps closer. They're very close at this point, and he also has a very pleading tone of voice. Goes, "Come with me." [G: Yeah. He looks like he could be called "ouppy."] [laughs] Yeah, he looks like he could be called ouppy. Scrunglo, even. He says, "Come with me. To Heaven. I'll run it, you can be my second in command."

G: [laughing] He literally said, "I'll be the Heavenly host, and you'll be the Heavenly co-host." [C laughing] [C: Literally!] And it's so funny! [C: Literally.] I mean, what are the implications of like- [laughs] What are the implications of like, second-in-command?

C: Aziraphale thought he was gonna get blown under those glass tables every single day, babey! [G laughs]

G: No, but like, [C: Yeah.] I don't know. Why can't they be like, you know, co-CEOs? [C: Yeah.] CEO duo.

C: Just like Daisy the Great and The Crane Wives. [G laughs] I think part of this is just like, "I know how the Heaven hierarchy works. There aren't co-leaders. Even though I'm thinking about making change there, I still haven't even, like, thought about changing that very simple structure up, because- I don't know. Those are the way things are in Heaven, and like, I'm not thinking about it that hard." I think that's part of it. Like, he thinks that Crowley's gonna be the Michael. Which, you know, is actually really nice that Crowley now has the opportunity to say "doody officer, haha!" every time he introduces himself. This was a work of charity on Aziraphale's part. Yeah, I think it's just like, not considering restructuring the hierarchies. I think it's also- is it a little bit of a- just, subconsciously, a response to "emotional support angel"? [G: Oh, you think so?] Maybe a little.

G: I cannot analyze this as like, "If they worked together in Heaven, what would the ranking and command be like?" because, like, there is no universe where Crowley goes up there. [C: Yeah.] Like, I can't even, like, imagine it, because, like, it's so beyond the what may actually happen. Yeah. What did Aziraphale think was gonna happen? What do you think was gonna happen, Aziraphale?

C: How much does this particular part hurt Crowley? 'Cause like, I think I have seen a post that was like, "This is the line where the tear in Crowley's eye really like, comes out." I don't think it's like, taking offense to the second-in-command part or whatever that's like, causing the tear. I think it's just the fact that Crowley finished this confession, and Aziraphale doesn't even acknowledge the question. And, like, the sentence is clearly a rejection of everything Crowley's asked. I think that's the reason why the tear comes out. But I don't know.

G: I can't believe I didn't notice that. Crowley does cry!

C: Yeah, you said that they didn't even cry. I was like, "The last scene's so crazy, and they're both crying," and you were like, "No, they aren't!" [laughs] during your DGAF era. G: Well, I literally thought they weren't. [C: Well, they are.] I literally thought they weren't.

C: Even if the angel thing was a job thing, Aziraphale has been bringing up- the "wanting you to come to Heaven, return to Heaven and be an angel" thing does bring up, you know, the whole inferiority, you're a demon, etc thing that Aziraphale's been doing for 6000 years, so I guess second-in-command is a bit salt in the wound-ish? Like, "I don't even trust you to make the final call on what's good"?

G: You know what? In this scene, I don't think Crowley is like, thinking about what Aziraphale is saying. 'Cause like, there's no point here where Crowley considers it, even. The moment Aziraphale goes, “Come with me.” Like, I think the feeling is mostly disbelief. Like, I don't even think Crowley is processing the exact wording that Aziraphale is using.

C: So during our 1.01 recording, you were talking about how you think that, like, Crowley was making the arguments he was making to Aziraphale regarding why they should save the world because it's what would convince Crowley themself. The stuff that Aziraphale’s saying here, is it like, stuff that he's used to convince himself or stuff that he thinks will work on Crowley? Also, we've said that Crowley thinks that nothing he says is gonna make a difference, and that Aziraphale's a lost cause. Does Aziraphale thinks Crowley is a lost cause, [G: No.] or does Aziraphale think like, "If I say the right thing, it'll happen."

G: Aziraphale is of the belief that like, Crowley will follow him anywhere. I mean, you know, when Crowley puts on those sunglasses and starts heading out, Aziraphale’s like, “What? What are you doing?” [C: Yeah.] As I've said earlier, or maybe not, I don't remember anything I say, [C laughs] like, Aziraphale, went into this thinking that like, "And I will tell Crowley the good news." [C: Yeah.] No part of it is even like, "And I will ask Crowley about it," because no part of it was like, "And Crowley would say no if I ask." "So like, let's skip forward from the asking and just say what's gonna happen, 'cause it's not like Crowley's gonna refuse." Like, that's not even part of the thought process. Like, here, I think Aziraphale is just thinking like, "We're saying things right now. But like, the way this conversation will end is, we'll go to Heaven together."

C: This isn't even an attempt to convince Crowley 'cause it's like, "It's gonna happen anyway."

G: No, I mean, like, it is an attempt to convince Crowley, but I think Aziraphale has set the railroads down, and all of it, like, points towards "saying all these things will like, result to Crowley coming with me." And like, I don't think Aziraphale is choosing his words carefully or anything like that. Choosing the words carefully entails that "If I say the wrong thing, Crowley wouldn't come with me." [C: Yeah.] And like, I don't think Aziraphale has even considered that.

C: Even at this point? [G: Yeah.] [laughing] If he looked like he could be called ouppy, I think that he is getting a little desperate. G: Okay. Fine. [both laugh]

C: [laughing] No, you can keep doing your thing. I'm just saying that I think other things, yeah.

G: I think if Aziraphale is just thinking with a mindset that like, "And Crowley is legitimately going to leave," He wouldn't say "Nothing lasts forever." I just don't think he would. [C: Huh.] Or like, maybe it's one of those situations again, where Aziraphale's thinking a different thing than Crowley's thinking it. [C: Yeah, I think he is.] And I'm also thinking a different thing than how everybody's thinking of it. [C: Mm-hm.] [sighs] [C: Maybe so.] I'm thinking about that one time you were talking about like, "God, like, is we saying this thing in the podcast, does it come out as homophobic because, like, Neil Gaiman said this, [C laughing] and I said that Neil Gaiman blah blah blah blah blah," and I was like, "You're playing 5D queerphobia chess with Neil Gaiman right now, for real." But like, in this scene, it does feel like we're playing 5D "trying to talk to each other" chess with Aziraphale and Crowley.

C: Yeah. Four-person chess, let's go! [G: Yeah, four-person 5D chess.] Who gets the 2 Ds? I mean, Crowley, due to the snake anatomy. [G laughs] [G: Exactly!] Okay, so we've asked what Aziraphale's policies are. What does Aziraphale think Crowley's policies are? Like, "We can make a difference." Is it just like, "I'm gonna do stuff, and you're gonna help me enact them as my second in command," or like- I mean, Aziraphale remembers angel Crowley, I suppose, and remembers that angel Crowley wanted a suggestion box installed, so I guess he does know that Crowley had policies, had a platform at some point. [G: Yeah.] So is it just like, "Well, now you'll get to do them, and no one can say no, because I will let you do whatever, and I'm in charge." Crowley says, "You can't leave this bookshop."

G: I mean, it's crazy to me, because, like, "You can't leave this bookshop" is like, "Here's something that you love, and you've, you know, you've been here a long time. You can't leave this place." But really what Crowley is saying here is [C: "You can't leave me."], "You can't leave me!"

C: Yeah. And I mean, I guess, okay, I also like the way "You can't leave this bookshop" is formulated as one of those declarative statements that made up Crowley's confession, [G: Yeah.] and I feel like it's also maybe like, sort of an attempt to like, return to "Like, okay, the last time I convinced Aziraphale of something really big was like, 1.01, the Apocalypse, and like, in that one I was like, 'Oh, well, you can't leave this music and this food, and like, there's no old bookshops up in Heaven.'" [G: Yeah.] So I feel like it's also like, grasping at that straw. I don't- Do you think Crowley's been afraid in the past that Aziraphale was gonna leave for Heaven?

G: I think Crowley is well aware that, like, Aziraphale likes it on Earth, you know? [C: Yeah.] I mean, it didn't happen in the show or the book, but [C: Yeah, the-] the chocolates scene is like, Aziraphale didn't want to go then.

C: Yeah. But I guess if the reason Crowley goes, like, "Aziraphale’s not gonna leave for Heaven is because he likes it here on Earth," is that a thought that he's ever had? Like, is this a statement he's had to make to reassure themself at any point? Or is it just like, "Well, this is what I think currently." Has Crowley ever thought, "I don't think Aziraphale would want to leave me" before?

G: The thing is like, I don't think Crowley thinks that. Like, here, I said earlier, right, "You can't leave this bookshop," what Crowley is really saying is, "You can't leave me." But like, I don't think Crowley is making that leap. It's more of like, "You can't leave the things that you love and have loved for a long time here an Earth." And, like, Aziraphale saying, "Well, I can. Nothing lasts forever." Like, "If this is the thing that you love the most, and you're willing to leave it behind, then everything else, goes, I suppose." And that includes Crowley.

C: I mean, this is less emotional than whatever the fuck, but I think it is also that, like, the bookshop is Aziraphale's employment right now. Right? So it's like, "Don't go to Heaven for job satisfaction. Like, hey, look! Bookshop right here." Or the bookshop is just sort of a stand-in for as Aziraphale's purpose on Earth in general, I think. Like, you know, the community in Soho and then like, the things that he likes to do. And yeah, now Aziraphale is like, "Well, I found a higher purpose now!" At this line, Aziraphale gives this fond, sad smile and goes, "Oh, Crowley. Nothing lasts forever." And okay, from Aziraphale’s point of view, my initial reading is like, the smile is sort of just a "Oh, that's-" like, he's trying to convince himself that like, "Oh, it's so sweet that, like, this is Crowley's main objection to this plan after all! Like, it wasn't about anything else that I can't fix. Like, he's just worried about my wellbeing, not having the bookshop! But yeah, no, don't worry about that! That'll be chill!" It's also a very sad smile. I think it's like, yeah, he's trying to tell himself that that's what Crowley means by it, and that after he reassures them of this one fact, like, all will be well, but like, he's aware that it won't all be well. [G: Yeah.] But he doesn't know that Crowley means, "You can't leave me," or else Aziraphale wouldn't have responded in that way.

G: Yeah. Also, "Nothing lasts forever" is such a crazy crazy crazy crazy thing to say when what Crowley asked of him is "Can we spend the rest of our existence together?" aka fucking forever. [C: Yeah.] And Aziraphale's like, "Nothing lasts forever."

C: When Aziraphale says "nothing," like, I guess he's just thinking, like, "Obviously, I'm just talking about like, material things like the bookstore. Like, it's so obvious that, like, I'm committed to you or whatever the fuck that like, I don't even see why you would turn it into that kind of an insecure relationship thing," right? Like, it's like, that's why he puts it like that. It's like, you know, when you tell one of your friends "I don't have any friends" or "I hate all my friends," like, you assume they know that, like, they're not included in that 'cause you're telling them this. I don't think Aziraphale considered that Crowley could read it the way that Crowley's reading it. [G: Yeah.] And something that is in like, this article that I forgot, but like, it brought up that like, in the Before the Beginning scene, Crowley's, like, you know, been bopping around, having a good time building her nebula, and then, like, Aziraphale comes in with the news of the 6000-year deadline. And, like, that is sort of Crowley's first "Nothing lasts forever" moment [G: Mm-hm.] in like, her entire existence, and I guess this is, it's sort of happening again here. Like, Crowley's first big moment of like, doubting God, and like, being unhappy as an angel, like, the realization that there was a 6000-year deadline on the universe. The article said that this conversation might bring up that past trauma. I'm not super- [G: Hold on!] I don't think that's that related, but it's an interesting idea.

G: Hold on! You were talking about like, "Time ends now," and how that means like, the universe should stop existing because time is intrinsically [C: Right.] related to the universe. And the way Aziraphale words the introduction of this season was like, "In 6000 years, all of this would be shut down," including the stars. [C: Mm-hm.] So like, they would turn off the entire universe. [C: Yeah, I guess.] But like, why then would running to Alpha Centauri matter?

C: I don't- it's bad writing? It's writing that's bad. Neil Gaiman has reentered the chat. [G laughing]

G: Yeah. [C: I don't know.] And he will exit it again with the nightingales.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Crowley is also not thinking that straight, I guess, throughout the whole thing. Like, did he think they were going to go to Alpha Centauri in his car? [laughs] Like-

G: You know at the end of Grease [laughs] when- completely normal movie, at the end of Grease, [C laughing] the car just flies into the sun? That's what Aziraphale and Crowley are gonna do.

C: So true. But, no, you're right. The fucking- yeah, they're not very consistent on whether the Apocalypse only affects Earth or affects the entire universe. But like, the angels and demons are still gonna exist after time ends, though. It's like, the physical destruction happens to the Earth, but like, the stars just pause, so it would be fine to be in Alpha Centauri, I think.

G: No, I think those stars will get destroyed. [C: But like, they'll all explode and shit?] Or just stop existing, yeah.

C: Okay, so what are the angels and demons doing now?

G: They're going to restart everything, but only with one faction.

C: Well, if they go off to Alpha Centauri, like, they don't have to- Okay, Earth is the battleground, right? [G: Yes.] So if they leave Earth, they don't have to fight each other to the death, and they aren't at risk of being killed by the other side. So after the universe restarts, like, one of them can sneak in to like, the new Earth with the other person. Like, that's the point.

G: So like, "Let's just wait out the war war."

C: Yeah, "Let's wait out the war war, and then like, wait until they restart the universe." G: Yeah, okay, fine, yeah. Mm.

C: Yeah. Okay. We figured it out. Good for us. Crowley does this very slow nod and looks up and goes, "No. No, I don't suppose it does." and, you know, very defeated tone of voice. And then puts on her sunglasses.

G: Aziraphale's face in this scene! [C: Yes.] It fucking gets to me. 'Cause he is confused why Crowley is doing this.

C: Yeah, and it's like he's sort of trying to convince himself that this is like, being like, "Okay, I'm putting on my sunglasses so we can go outside to the elevator together." But like, he knows it's not.

G: The thing is like, the kiss happens, the sunglasses are on. [C: Mm-hm.] And I think about that. [C: Yeah.] I mean, I guess we'll talk about it when the kiss happens, but it's very much not a matter of Crowley opening his heart. [C: Yeah.] Like, this is not a moment of vulnerability. The kiss is not a moment of vulnerability. Honestly, it's a little bit like a- you know what I've been saying a lot earlier of like, "Crowley is trying to make sure that Aziraphale is doing all this in full awareness of what he's actually doing"? It's kind of like, "Just so you know, if all of this goes wrong, it's your fault. Just so you know, you leaving, it's your fault. Just so you know, I would have chosen something else. But you choosing this, it's on you. You're the one who's choosing."

C: I don't know if that's my primary reading, but we'll get to it when we get to it.

G: The putting on the sunglasses, like, contributes a lot to that. Like, Crowley's done being vulnerable. Crowley's done, like, putting his heart out. [C: Yeah.] This is all just blah blah blah.

C: I guess to Aziraphale, right, he is still hoping 'cause he's like, "Oh, Crowley is agreeing with me for the first time in this conversation. Wonderful! [laughs] Maybe we'll get somewhere." But yeah, no, Crowley's agreeing with what they've heard, which is like, "I can leave you." Yeah, the "Good luck" is, as you mentioned, it's what Crowley says before, you know, walking towards the door. I think I've asked this before, but like, when Crowley walks out on their fights, like, do they think, like, "This is the last time we'll see each other"? 'Cause like, this is like, a hundred percent true for this one. For the other ones, it could be true, could be not true. Is that something that's on their mind right now?

G: I don't think Crowley is particularly thinking about that right now. [C: Yeah, I think she's just emotional.] "This is the last time I'm gonna see Aziraphale." She's angry, just angry. And also, like, there was the whole stint with the standing beside the car. [C: Yeah.] I think, maybe, in that moment, that's when Crowley starts to think, "If you walk into that elevator, I'm never gonna see you again." [C: Mm-hm. Yeah.] And he does. Hell yeah!

C: Yeah. Is there like, a universe, where like, Crowley stays and Aziraphale goes, but like, they leave off on an okay enough note that, like, Aziraphale, could still come down and visit? Or like, was it always gonna be like this?

G: As I've said, like, if Aziraphale didn't come in with, like, the angel offer specifically, perhaps. [C: Yeah.] If Aziraphale wasn't so intent on the whole "Heaven is good, and Hell is bad, and what I'm doing is inherently good." [C: yeah.] I think if if Aziraphale went into that going like, "Heaven is bad, but I can change it," like, Crowley would understand better where Aziraphale is coming from. Also, if, like, in this conversation, Aziraphale didn't treat it as like, "And I'm leaving Earth for good."

C: Does Aziraphale treat it like that? [G: Yeah.] Huh. In what line?

G: I mean, "Just like the old times. We can be angels again in everything. Just like the old times." [C: Yeah, that's true.] And it's like, that implies, like, the non-existence of Earth. [C: That's true.] So like, if that's not the case, they could- And also, if they just exp- if, like, one or both of them explicitly went, "But you're gonna come back?" [C: Mm.] If Aziraphale was like, "It's a temporary gig," you know. [C: Yeah. Though he does say-] "Gig economy, you must understand." [both laugh]

C: He does- "Like the old times, only even nicer." [G: Yeah.] And like, that "only even nicer" could mean so many different things, [G: Yeah.] and I think Crowley thinks that it means basically nothing, but like, for Aziraphale it could include, like, "And like, we're there, we're together, we're in love, we come back to Earth, like, every single day for 8 hours." You know? [laughs] Like, I don't know what "even nicer" means to Aziraphale.

G: I just think like, if there was a way to do this conversation where Crowley is like, "I'm not gonna come with you to Heaven, but I understand that this is important to you, and you think this is important work, and therefore go." And Aziraphale is like, "I will go to Heaven, but that does not equate to leaving you behind." But, you know, to get to that conclusion, they need to talk. And like, here, they're just saying things to each other. They're not even fucking talking.

C: Yeah. this is true. So they're walking out on the "good luck." If, like, Aziraphale was the one doing this, like, Aziraphale, king of ultimatums, [laughs] would be walking out as like, a ploy to force Crowley's hand, I think. But no, I think Crowley is just walking out. Crowley says "good luck," which is like, a completely nothing response, and is like, "Okay, well, we're done." And Aziraphale's surprised at this, a little bit angry? almost, I think. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, he goes, "Good luck? Crowley. Crowley, come back." And there's a pause before he finishes the sentence. It's "Come back... to Heaven." Yeah, that pause does a lot for me. And then-

G: What does the pause do a lot of? What are you talking about? [C: Just the-] Like, "Come back to me" vs "to Heaven."

C: Yeah, yeah. 'Cause Crowley stops. I think if Aziraphale said the full sentence in one go, Crowley would not stop.

G: Yeah. And like, the fact that, like, you know, Crowley looks at Aziraphale, and then, like, as Aziraphale is making his points, Crowley turns away and just dis- [C: Well-] Yeah.

C: Specifically what- Okay, Aziraphale says, "Work with me." And Crowley's still looking, right? [G: Yeah.] Aziraphale says, "We can be together," and that is when Crowley turns away. Like, I think that that is very specific of a thing.

G: Because it's like, it's what Crowley is asking, what Crowley wants, but it's a bastardization of what Crowley wants.

C: Yeah. And it's it's the fact that Aziraphale hasn't said that until now. [G: Yeah.] It's just been like, "Oh, we're gonna do good, we're gonna make a difference, like, Heaven's the side of good," like, those are all of Aziraphale’s arguments, right? It's only until now that, like, he pulls out this card. It can't feel sincere to Crowley. I don't think it would feel sincere to anyone if like, you are like, "Okay, it's over," and you, like, are walking out, and that's when they finally say, like, "We can be together." Like, you're like, "Oh, you just heard that thing that I said, and you're just like, throwing it back at me. Okay. Well, fuck you."

G: But the thing is like, the being together is the thing that convinces Aziraphale that this is something worthwhile doing. Like, as I've said, multiple times, he says no until the offer included. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] And then it's, "Okay."

C: But does Crowley know that or understand that? To Crowley, this is just like, "Well, that's unkind of you to do. Don't do that. Fuck off." 'Cause like, it's very different from like, Crowley's confession, which is just like, "Okay, you've made your suggestion. And here's my suggestion: I love you. Don't do this." Like, this is like- It's not manipulative, but it would feel manipulative, I think. And Crowley's tried very hard to make their thing not manipulative. And I feel like after this happens, Crowley's like, "Okay, so I guess I can just fucking do the kiss now, then. Great. I guess we're just not like, playing by any rules of decency? Okay. Fine."

G: [tearful] I think what gets to me is, like, the way Aziraphale tries to convince Crowley is, "You can go back to Heaven, and you could be an angel, and you can be happy. [C: Mm.] And we can do good." Because, like, these are the things that- [laughs] I'm crying. [C laughs] [C: I know, I can hear it.] These are your things that Aziraphale thinks are important to Crowley. [C: Yeah.] Aziraphale’s like, “And here are things important to you that I can offer you.” And Crowley is like, “But that's not what I want. What I want is this other thing.” And then, like, Aziraphale now is coming in, like, "Well, I can offer you that thing, too." [C: Yeah.] And to Crowley, it seems like that's an afterthought. But it isn't, is the thing. [C: Yeah.] It's just Aziraphale thought it would be an afterthought for you, [C: Yeah.] so that's why he worded it like this.

C: Yeah. [sighs] Oh, what if misery was the only emotion left on Earth? [G laughs] [G: What if?] Yeah, right, we had that anon who mentioned that like, Aziraphale thinks that part of what Crowley will like about becoming an angel again is that it will allow them to do good without like, being punished or being like, embarrassed about it. Yeah, I think that what you just said there sort of touches on that. And the anon went on to say, like, "But doing Good or being Good with a capital G isn't really that important to Crowley; Crowley just does good things 'cause that's like, what they do. It's like, what they want to do when something happens."

Aziraphale does say, "We can be together." And he does gesture with like, both of his hands. And yeah, yeah, it does happen. But [laughing] then he goes, "Angels. Doing good." What are you talking about? [G: He's so funny.] [both laughing] [G: He's so fucking funny!] But I I do like how this parallels, you know, his first sentence in this plea, which is like, "Come with me, dot dot dot, to Heaven," and then it's like, "We can be together, dot dot dot, angels, doing good." [G: Angels.] Like, each time, like, he says something that like, is genuine, and then he feels the need to qualify it with like, some Heaven bullshit.

G: I mean, the next lines are the ones that make me feeel crazy. [C: Yeah. So-] It's "I need you."

C: Yeah. He is at this point, like, on the verge of tears. [G: Begging! Begging!] Uh-huh. Yeah, he is begging. He's desperate. He's on the verge of tears. It's awful. And yeah, he does say, "I- I need you!" And. Ahhh.

G: Crowley's not even looking. [C: Yeah.] Crowley's not even looking.

C: Yeah, Crowley hasn't been looking since "We can be together," and like, this feels very much like the 2.01 fight. [G sighs] Like, this is his, "No! I would love for you to help me!" and in 2.01, it's like, "Maybe if he'd given that some room to breathe, like, they could have talked," but he goes straight into, "But if you won't, you won't." [G: Yeah.] But in this situation, it's like, this is like, his closest thing to saying, "I love you." And, like, Crowley like-

G: And he gets upset immediately! He gets mad immediately! And just goes straight to the fucking, "I don't think you understand what I'm offering you."

C: Yeah, the way that his voice changes on that. Truly, truly something.

G: That line makes me feel- I don't even- I think everything that like, can be said about that line is like, it's in the line, you know? It's not like we can do further analysis of it. [laughs] So I just want to say that it makes me feel fucking insane. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] "I don't think you understand what I'm offering you." It's like, Aziraphale really does think that this is like, a very good thing, very good deal. "I don't understand why you're not accepting it."

C: But it's also the fact that it comes so soon after the "We can be together" thing, like, it probably hammers home for Crowley, like, "He doesn't even mean that."

G: And like, the change in tone, you've mentioned it, but like, it does sound so different. Like, 'cause "I need you" is delivered with like, with so much like, [C: It's raw.] desperation. And then, like, the next line is basically, like, "Actually, you should be the one desperate for me." Aziraphale really- 'cause this whole time, like, the camera is just on Aziraphale's face, basically. And like, you see him like, collect his like, emotions to like, change into something more- like, with conviction. Someone with more authority. [C: Yeah.] And thinking of it from Aziraphale's perspective is like, "Like, why are you not taking this thing seriously?" And it's like, to him, this makes complete and perfect sense, I suppose. He couldn't understand why Crowley's just refusing.

C: And Crowley, like, turns back around. Her voice is- I don't know how to explain it. It's like, she sounds like she's like, in mourning or has cried recently, and like, her nose is a little blocked up from it or something. They say, "I understand. I think I understand a whole lot better than you do." Well. I don't know what to say about that. [laughs] And neither does Aziraphale, 'cause he just nods and blinks and does a fake little smile, or tries to do a fake little smile. And then the thing says, primly-

G: The thing is, there really is- you know, like, I started the season saying the 1.06 scene with the sword and the "Do something, or I'll never speak to you again" is like, a threat that Aziraphale gives, and it must loom over Crowley that like, "I did that, and we're still okay." Their fight in 2.01 is like, "I thought I couldn't do it, but like, I came back and I did do it, and we're still okay because I did it. But like, one day, there will be an ultimatum that I can live with and I can't do, and it's going to be over." This is very much it. Like, this is the definition of that. Aziraphale is going somewhere where Crowley can't follow. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] [sighs] For Aziraphale, it's like, "Stay with you or do my job." Or "Do a job." For Crowley, it's like, "Do this thing with you but like, sacrifice all of my ideology, like, betray the things I stand for. Like, betray myself." I was thinking about this. Is Aziraphale betraying what he stands for and himself in this scene? And I really don't think so. [C: I don't like think so.] I think, like, this is aligned with the things Aziraphale wants or believes. I really do.

C: But also, a lot of the things he wants or believes, like, make him miserable, and he just wants or believes them 'cause he thinks he should. [G: Yeah.] You can not betray your ideology and still like, go to a place where you always feel horrible, surrounded by people who hate your ass [G: I mean, obviously.] like, unable to experience any of the joy that you actually want out of life, like, because you think you're doing something for the greater good. [G: Obviously.] So I think they're not- I feel like the difference between what they're sacrificing isn't that big.

G: No, yeah, yeah. I understand that. But I'm saying, like, "What's the thought process right now?" It's not part of Aziraphale’s thought process that like, "I'm betraying a belief system that I hold." For Crowley to go to Heaven, it is like, "betraying, like, a fundamental belief I hold as a person." Like, "A pillar of my personality. I'm betraying that." [C: Yeah.] Well, anyway. Very primly goes-

C: Yeah, very primly goes, "Well. Then, there's nothing more to say."

G: It literally is like, "You're at liberty to go." [C: Yeah.] It literally is, "I don't think there's any point in discussing this any further."

C: Yeah. This is how he ends fights. Though, I mean, Crowley also, like, "I don't even know I'm still talking to you"-ed Aziraphale in 1.03 [G: Yeah.], so it's sort of how both of them end fights. Man. I don't- Their issue is both that they haven't said everything that they need to say, and that they don't listen when the other person says the things that they need to say. [G: Yeah.] There isn't nothing more to say. There's soo much more to say. [G: Yeah.] But I think a lot of a lot of fictional couples could benefit from just requiring all their sentences to be ten words longer. I just, the way that this goes- and like, I don't- like, I'm watching this being like, "How can you throw away a 6000-year-old friendship like this?" but like, both of them are thinking, "How can this other person throw away this friendship like this? Well, then, I guess it means nothing to them. So, fuck you! [G: Yeah.] I'm going to throw it away, too!"

G: Yeah. What fucking gets to me is like, this scene, like, Crowley walking out and out the door and everything, to Aziraphale's perspective, Crowley has made up his mind that he just doesn't care anymore. [C: Yeah.] It is difficult to like, you know, get to someone and like, appeal to someone who just has decided that. The fact that the first appeal is like, "We could be together. Don't go." Like, that's emotional, right? That's like, "You care about me. You care about these things. So don't go, because you care about me and these things." And then the next request is, "But this is the rational thing to do. You don't understand." [C: Yeah.] And it's, you know how I was talking about the fucking facets of faith. [C: Right.] We keep on fucking coming back to this one, but like, it's about like, the personal emotion that the faith gives you, and then the rationalization of it. I don't know. The fact that Aziraphale's like, moving backwards from that. It's like, "Here's the emotional appeal," and like, that doesn't work. "Okay, well, here's the logical conclusion." [C: Yeah.] [sadly] Aziraphale.

C: Oh, Aziraphale. Yeah, so he says that, and he tries to this polite smile thing, but he can't, and he just like, twists his lips together and his mouth hardens. And like- yeah. I mean, both of them, very angry, very hurt, and trying to cover the hurt up with anger. And then- ugh. [G laughs] You don't- you don't hate this scene, do you? I feel like I don't have that many notes for it 'cause I was too busy hating it.

G: The thing is like, [laughs] every time I watch it, I'm like, "Booo!" And then I think about it, and I'm like, "Okay, let's think about this." And then I have some thoughts, and I'm like, "Okay, maybe it's not that bad." And then I watch it, and I go, [both] "Boo!" So.

C: Yeah. Okay, Crowley goes, "Listen." Which, okay, you know what? [G: It's so bad!] Is an interesting response to "There's nothing more to say." But, you know, unfortunately, nothing good happens after "Listen." Crowley like, points upwards, right? Aziraphale pauses and does try to listen, and then he just goes, "[sighs] I don't hear anything," frustratedly. And then Crowley goes, "That's the point. No nightingales." What? [laughs] What? [G: Okay.] Yeah.

G: It's bad, and I hate it, but if we're going to try to think about this scene as someone who gives a shit about it, okay. Well. I do think, you know, like, Crowley is presented as the one with more self-awareness on what their relationship is and what it entails. Maybe, like, she was aware that there was a nightingale in Berkeley Square that day that sang, and like, you know.

C: And why would Aziraphale also be aware of that, and why would it have sentimental significance for the both of them, even though it's never come up in the season before?

G: Didn't you say that, like, the music is diegetic? Like, Tori Amos was fucking singing that thing. [C: Yeah.] But that's not nightingale- it's just- [laughs] I was like, "I thought about it, and I had some thoughts about it," but apparently, all the thoughts were "I hate it!" and I do. [C laughing] [laughs] No, it's like, for me, it's like, you know, you can view it as like, "Crowley has more like, meta-awareness [C laughs] of their relationship." [C: Sure.] I mean like, Crowley said, right, "He's just an angel. I know." And like, it's not written that way as proven by Neil Gaiman and his horrible Tumblr askbox. [C laughs] But if we are to read it the way we read it, which is that it's Crowley saying like, "I know what this looks like," we can assume that, like, Crowley knows what "this," in general, this relationship looks like. We also know that Crowley is sentimental, [C: Yeah.] and holds onto things and thinks of them with, you know, sentimental value. If all of that is true, and also, we make up a universe where, after the Ritz [C laughs], they go out to Madison Square. Wherever. Is that the place? [C: Berkeley Square.] Berkeley Square. [laughs] Barkeley Square. They got there, yeah, and they, you know, hear the nightingale, and it's like, Crowley is like, aware that like, "Oh, this is like, a significant thing, and I'm going to remember this."

C: And why would Aziraphale react? Because Aziraphale does react to this. Like, you can make all those arguments about Crowley. Why would Aziraphale also have the same feelings about this?

G: I don't know! Honestly, maybe this is just terrible. [C: It is!] Maybe it's a terribly-written episode.

C: Thank you, I'm glad we landed on a conclusion, yay! [G laughs] Okay. [laughing] No, but-

G: No, it's just, for me, also, the pointing up? I hate that. [C: Yeah.] Why are you pointing up? [C laughs]

C: I don't know. I don't know! I'm used to up being God in Good Omens. Stop like, trying to confuse me. I want my motif. Stop making new ones. [G laughs]

G: Maybe Aziraphale reacting to this is like, "What the fuck are you talking about? [C: It's not, though.] We're having this breakup, blowout divorce fight, and you're just standing there saying bullshit!" [C laughs]

C: The thing is- The thing is, if this was just Crowley, like, at this point, like, just so upset and like, not really thinking about anything anymore, just like, saying bullshit, like, I'd find it fucking annoying still, but I'd still be like, "Okay. Fine." It's just the fact that, like, this, like, completely freezes Aziraphale in his tracks where I'm like, "Well, I don't think so. I disagree with that." [G: Yeah.] If you wanted to do this, like, Aziraphale has a record player. Just have him sometimes be listening to something other than "Everyday" and Shostakovich. Just like, if this is a song that he listen to sometimes, I'd be like, "Okay. He knows what this means, and like, he did like, remember that song and like, think of it fondly as like, part of their relationship after Season 1." Great. It's corny as all hell, but like, I'll believe it. But like, there was- there was nothing. It's just clearly like a "for the fans" line, [G: Yeah.] and I hate when anything is for the fans, 'cause we don't live in there. Get us out of there! [laughs] Fi thought that the point of the "no nightingales" line was just like a "And we were supposed to go to the Ritz, and we didn't!" which I think is so funny. 'Cause, okay, the lines that come before the line in "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square," are "There were angels dining at the Ritz," number 1. Number 2, "when you turned and smiled at me." and then number 3, "as we kissed and said goodnight," and then number 4, "and like an echo far away." And, I mean, I guess Crowley is referencing one of those specific lines, but like, probably just the "and there were angels dining at the Ritz" or the "when you turned and smiled at me" one. But yeah, I mean, you know, the general vibe of the line is just like, "This is like, not our romantic, happy ending," whatever the fuck, blah blah blah blah blah. Wish it didn't happen. We could've just like, skipped to later lines or something.

G: It also just feels like such a line that's just here. Like, it feels inserted in.

C: Yeah, and it's like, it's played like a "gotcha," and like, it's not a gotcha. No one's been got. So, again. Effect on Aziraphale. He's completely fucking frozen. And then Crowley goes, "You idiot. We could have been... us." And okay, we've talked about how "us" is not emotionally satisfying for Aziraphale so far. What is "us" to Crowley? What have they daydreamed about?

G: I don't know. Fucking raw in the street. [C laughs]

C: I don't know. It's hard to say. I mean, I'm assuming people are moving towards the South Downs cottage ending. I don't know how happy they would be there, but, I don't know. I don't know anything. I only have an ex-fiancee.

G: I don't know how the South Downs cottage thing would work, because- [C: Where are the restaurants?] Are they just gonna go there and like, be there? What are they gonna do? [C: Like, you live forever, like-] It's vacation. It's vacation time. [C: I don't know. They'll raise chickens.] They're gotta go from their situation now to seeing and living with each other every single day?

C: Yeah, like, you need to do a trial run first. Like, I just know, like, one of you like, turns the taps to a temperature that the other one can't stand, you know?

G: I mean, just home decor. What are you gonna do with the home decor? [C laughs]

C: Also, like, you're going to have to drive so far to get to restaurants. Like, I don't know if you'd like it that much! But I don't know. Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding what the South Downs is like. Aziraphale’s been here in London with this book store for 200 years. It's been a mostly satisfactory life. I think they're capable of contentment for long periods of time in the same place.

G: Yeah. But also, I think Aziraphale is a city guy.

C: Yeah, I also believe this of him. I don't know. We'll see. But okay, so that's the "us" part. I mean, the "you idiot" part, we've already talked about a bit, but you know, just reiterating, Crowley's habit of calling Aziraphale stupid at the end of their arguments is [laughs] not good for their relationship. Does not help. Aziraphale looks upset and pointedly turns away. This is, you know, his like, "Well, I don't want to hear it. We're done." gesture. Sort of in response to this, Crowley stalks forward, grab some by the lapels, and kisses him. I did a lot of replaying and pausing and things throughout this, so I guess the [laughs] play-by-play is that when Crowley grabs Aziraphale, Aziraphale is still looking away [G: Yeah.], and like, if you sort of pause on that, it's like, I feel like Crowley's action is like- like, he thinks that the turning way is Aziraphale’s shutting himself down, shutting himself out of this conversation, but like, if you see Aziraphale's face in the second during the grab, like, he is crying. Like, it's happening. He is fully crying. So that sure is something. And like, Crowley's like, gritting their teeth during the lapel grab, like they're bracing for impact. And this is all just so so miserable 'cause this is not how either them wanted this to go. Like, I think this is something they have both thought about, and they just- yeah. It wasn't like this. Aziraphale's still looking away. Crowley finally pulls him around. The thing is like, in the seconds- the few seconds, like, one second, whatever, when like, Aziraphale's being pulled in, he does close his eyes, like, immediately, and it feels sort of like a "If I shut my eyes and don't look at this happening, it isn't gonna happen." They make contact. Aziraphale makes a bit of a shocked sound like during the coming in. His eyes are still closed for, like, a brief second, but the context seems to like, shock him awake, and his eyes open, and he like, jolts a little. He looks mostly like- partly disbelieving and partly, like, he's scrunching his face up like, he- It's hard- like, the scrunching his face up thing, like, I feel like it kind of looks to me like he's trying to stop himself from giving in, but, like, part of it, is also like, trying to just get Crowley to stop. It's hard for me to read the face scrunch.

G: I think Aziraphale's like, "Stop." [C: Yeah.] I think that's what the face scrunch is.

C: Yeah. He starts looking really sad, and he first brings an arm up, like he wants to rest it on Crowley's back, but then he sort of just like, lets it fall. And I guess, like, the whole time Crowley's just staying incredibly still, just holding Aziraphale [G: Stock-still, yeah.] there against their mouth. Like, there's not really any movement or anything happening there. Any movement is like, Aziraphale's nervous expressions and hands and things. Right, we have a shot of them from the side where you see better the way that, like, the lapel grab means that Crowley's elbows are like, pressed against Aziraphale’s torso, which means that even if Aziraphale wanted to get closer, like, he couldn't really that well. [G: Yeah.] And then during this shot, Aziraphale sort of- [G: This is the EVERY shot, right?] [laughs] Yes, this is the EVERY shot. [both laugh] Oh, what a time in my life! [G laughs]

G: I mean, I remember when that was happening. And you were like, "I'm sick. I hauve Covid," and I was like, "I don't understand," and like, of course I don't understand 'cause I have no emotional investment in this thing, but like, I don't know, I was like, I had no idea how to interface with you in that moment, because it was like, such a big deal for you, and then you watch the season, and you were like, "Don't talk to me. I'm sick! [both laughing] I'm sick with anger and grief." And I was like, "Okay!" [both laughing] I remember when you said that, like, I messaged you something else, and you didn't respond, and I was like, "Oh my god! Crystal's like, mad mad!" Like, you always respond to everything like, very promptly. [C laughing] [C: Yeah.] And the fact that you weren't responding to that, I was like, "Good lord. Like, should I do something? [C laughing] Is it my purview as Crystal's friend to like, do something?"

C: That's very nice. Sorry for worrying you. I mean, I think I had Danica to help me in her way, and I had therapy like, right after, though. [G laughs] That therapy session was like, "Okay, so you watched this TV show, and it made suicidal and homicidal." [G laughs] And I was like, "Yes. And?" [both laughing] [G: Yeah!] And maybe it did! Aziraphale cautiously brings a hand up. This is the moment when he has one hand that he sort of rests lightly on Crowley's back, and then the other hand, you can't see, but just from the angle of like, the shoulder bits you can see and all that, I think we can presume that it is around Crowley's waist, but it's not a grip, like, the shoulder hand. Like, it is just like, resting against their back, and then, like, within the same shot, you can see his hands like, fluttering again, and he lets go, so it was really this just very brief moment of contact and of kissing back. You can't really read Crowley very well during this because of the sunglasses, but like, if you crank the brightness up really really hard on certain shots, like, you can at least confirm that her eyes are closed. Crowley lets go, and Aziraphale falls backwards, gasping. And he looks distraught. Crowley looks devastated.

G: And like, I want to point out, the look of the scene is Crowley is just standing there, waiting for Aziraphale to say something or react.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Aziraphale's the one gasping and like, there's a lot of movement from him as he's trying to formulate the words. [G: Yeah.] Crowley is not even breathing. Aziraphale's, yeah, he's looking at Crowley like he just can't believe that they did this to him. [G, sadly: Yeah.] He starts- he says "I," and his mouth is moving, like, a little bit after, but like, he's not able to really speak and finish the sentence, and then he takes a few breaths, and during those breaths, he composes himself, but the emotion he switches to is just- it's anger. And then he just fucking spits out, "I forgive you." And I still do gasp out loud every time I watch that!

G: And okay, couple of things here, why Crowley kisses Aziraphale is because Aziraphale turns away, right? [C: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.] And like, essentially ends the conversation. Again, it's like, you know, doing something and then waiting to see what Aziraphale will do about it. Will say about it. This is like, you know, like, this kiss is not like, affection or anything. It's purely like, 1) what I said earlier, like, "I'm trying to show you what you're doing," and it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna kiss you now and so you know that this is what this means to me, and you're still gonna leave. And that's on." [C: Hm.] Bit mean to do, but okay. And there's also the aspect of, like, I think Crowley, like, wants Aziraphale to be angrier. [C: Yeah.] Because, like, you know, the way this conversation ends is like, Crowley is going, like, "We could have been an us." And like, maybe, if like, Aziraphale, like, bites back- I mean, we all know that like, Aziraphale doesn't like being called stupid, and like, you know, Crowley says, "You're an idiot." That is trying to get a reaction out of Aziraphale, right? [C: Yeah.] That is trying to make Aziraphale angrier. Like, "Let's cement this thing as like, you know, not like some civil thing where it's like, 'Oh, there's nothing more to say, and that's why I'm leaving, and that's why you're leaving.'" It's like, "Let's be angry at each other." That's why, like, you know, when this ends and Aziraphale, obviously like, mad and upset, like, refuses to engage in a verbal fight and just goes, "I forgive you." And like, that's when Crowley's like, "Yeah. You're gone. You're fully gone. You're obviously mad at me, and you won't even say it. You say 'I forgive you.'" Crowley is trying to get a rise out of him. Aziraphale's refusing to engage.

C: I guess I wasn't really able to draw conclusions, but I think that your reading makes sense. [G: Yeah.] Though I'm not sure if the idiot part necessarily was part of that. I don't know. I feel like Crowley says it with too much sincerity [laughs] - horrible thing to think about the line "You idiot," but yeah. [G: Yeah yeah yeah, I get what you mean.] I feel like in the past, when Crowley said something like that, when like, she said, like, "You're so smart. How can someone as smart as you be so stupid" or whatever, like, I think that is just coming from like, just her automatic thought. Like, "What the fuck. [laughs] Hello?" like, is just what she's thinking. But like, I guess the word choice of "idiot" here is- I don't know if that is her automatic thought. It is said very, very sadly, but I don't know if "stupid" is like, the adjective that they would use for like, Aziraphale throwing away their relationship like this, the way that Crowley sees it. I don't know what word Crowley really means. But yeah, I think it is substituting for something, but it's not substituting for something in a way that's supposed to get a rise out of Aziraphale.

G: I do feel bad. I feel bad because- I mean, typical reasons. Like, this is like- this is an unwanted kiss [C: Yeah.], so like, it's not particularly pleasant to watch. [C: Yeah.] But yeah, like, Aziraphale... I don't know.

C: It's too miserable to think about. I don't know what they think because it's too miserable of a situation to like, try to put myself in.

G: I think it's the fact that like, 1) it's an unwanted kiss, 2) like, the case doesn't even come from a place of like, affection or sincerity or anything. It's a taunt.

C: Right, 'cause it's not like, "Please stay," and then, like, "Kiss." It's like, "Well, we could have been something else. But we aren't. Like, it's not even happening. Here, this is what could have been part of us."

G: I mean, if Aziraphale thinks that like, "And Crowley is doing this to get a rise out of me," which I do think he does think because, like, that's what the "I forgive you" is like, about. Like, Aziraphale is saying that in a like "I'm not engaging with you in this," right?

C: I'm not sure I have. I haven't- I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out the "I forgive you" also.

G: Aziraphale has the reading comprehension of like, a 15-year-old on Tumblr. [C laughing] But he-

C: He was written by someone with the reading comprehension of a 15-year-old on Tumblr.

G: Like, you know, we see from like, his fucking Jane Austen situation [C laughs] that, like, he has, like, idealized views on romance and like, how those things should go or whatever. Here, it's like, it's really not romantic, and it's so far removed from love being the center of it. [C sighs] It's miserable. Sorry, Aziraphale! [sighs]

C: Aziraphale’s about to say something else first, but then he doesn't. [G: Is that true?] He says "I," and he like, stops, and then he turns angry, and then he says, "I forgive you." Like, the first "I" is like, in the middle of the still being distraught and catching his breath thing. Like, the anger comes after, and that's when he says the second thing, and I- I think that the "I" sort of seems like it's about to become an "I'm," and like, I feel like it's about to be an "I'm sorry," which makes it turning into "I forgive you" instead, like, even more insane to me. Is Crowley sorry? Like, "I forgive you" is, you know, like, "You should be sorry." Is Crowley sorry?

G: No. [C: No?] Crowley's not doing this for the reasons one would be sorry about, I think.

C: Hmm. So obviously, forgiveness has been a motif throughout the seasons, and I'm still figuring out how to put all them together, 'cause I feel like we've discussed all the "I forgive you"s in the past, and we've still not gotten to a solid conclusion on all of them. I guess the only other time that he says, like, "I forgive you," like, that full sentence, is the 1.04 fight. Like, 1.03 is "May you be forgiven," which is different. You said that the "I forgive you" in 1.04 is like, a response to Crowley like, doing the "I'm sorry. Whatever I said, I didn't mean it." [G: Yeah.] and Aziraphale’s "I forgive you," is like, "Well, I'm not angry at you for anything you said, but I'm still not coming with you because I'm just not coming with you." [G: Here?] That "I forgive you" is said very benevolently, right? And this one is, it's so angry. So it's not the same thing to me. I guess I was my initial reading of it, like, during my first Season 2 watch was just like, "I don't think you're gonna say sorry, but I want you to know that what you did was like, fucked up," but like, I don't know if that's all of it. I don't know what all of it is. I just know that it makes me feel, like, shrimp emotions, but I don't understand it entirely.

G: Yeah, I don't care for this scene, so. [C: Okay.] Can't help you with that. [C: Okay.] I think it's the "Don't bother" from Crowley, 'cause it's like, "I forgive you." "Don't bother." And one, it's like, "We're not gonna see each other again, so it doesn't matter," and two, it's like- C: "I'm not sorry"?

G: I don't think it's that "I'm not sorry." It's that, like, Crowley went into this kiss thinking, "And then Aziraphale is going to be mad, and then we can process that anger over this and also the everything else." [C: Sure.] And so Aziraphale refusing to engage is like, "That's not the point. Well, whatever. Don't bother."

C: Hm. Well, first off, I care deeply for "I forgive you." Like, that was the moment, watching Season 2 for the first time, when I was like, "Oh, I guess Neil Gaiman can write occasionally." I think I had the "Homophobic rejection, let's goo!" reaction the first time, but I don't think that is it, but it draws on that feeling for me, and I enjoy that. [G: Yeah.] I don't know. I think the way Danica just put it afterwards is just like, "That was like, the only line that could have come after that that would have been good, and it did happen." Did you notice Aziraphale’s face after he says the "I forgive you"? Like, he doesn't look angry after it. He's like, "I can't believe I just said that." Like, he looks scared and like, taken aback at like, himself to me. What do you see? No?

G: It's just- I don't know. It's just what your face does. [C laughing]

C: For your acting job that you're paid for and have done for many years [G laughs], yeah.

G: No, I mean, why are you asking? Why are you asking me?

C: I just- I don't know. I guess I am asking for your read on that face, but I guess you think that there's not particularly anything to it? [G: Yeah.] Okay. So, like you said, this whole time afterwards, Crowley has just been waiting. And after Aziraphale says this, like, she takes a moment, sighs, turns away, and starts walking a bit before he says, "Don't bother." And, you know, it is what you said. Like, "Well, we're never gonna see each other again, so what is the point. [G sighs] Like, we don't have to move on for this. [G: Yeah.] We will no longer be part of each other's lives. What you think of me and what you feel for me no longer matters."

G: The thing is like, in this scene, I think about the fact that- they're probably gonna be fine, right? [C: Yeah. When they end the show, yes.] Like, I mean, the show's gonna end, they're probably gonna be some semblance of together. But I remember when Aziraphale goes, "I don't think you understand what I'm offering you." my first thought immediately being, "You're going to regret that. There will be days in your existence where you think back to saying that, and you're going to regret it. [C: Yeah.] No matter how this goes, you're going to regret it." And for Crowley, maybe the kiss, honestly. Maybe the "Don't bother." [C: Probably both.] This is like, you know, this is not like, a fight that they can shrug off. Let's say they fix themselves. And they like, you know, agree that "Okay, we're gonna be friends again," or whatever afterwards. Even then, if this results to them having a relationship, like, this is where it starts. It's this such miserable experience. [C: Yeah.] I don't know. It's not like, you know, their other fights were. 'Cause those are not particularly about their relationship, like, centrally. It is about the relationship because it's them both having the fight, but running away to Alpha Centauri is not about them, it's about, like, Aziraphale wanting to go up to Heaven first before doing anything else. Like, the fight in the bandstand is not about them, specifically. It's about like, how Aziraphale doesn't want to- like, "We're on opposite sides," whatever. The holy water scene is not about them. It's about the holy water. And this one is like, it begins as not about them, but as it progresses, it becomes more and more obvious that the question is, like, "What about us?" [C: Yeah.] And that's what they're fighting about. And this kiss, like, cements it. "What we're arguing about here is not you going to Heaven or whatever. It's everything else that comes along with it that relates to our relationship." It's inextricable from any future ways that their relationship can develop. [C: Yeah.] And that makes me sad. I feel like this fight is like, even if things go well, this is the one thing. Like, you're gonna regret this.

C: Yeah. Yeah. And they have memories that last forever and lives that last forever, so they are going to regret this for a very long time. [G: Yeah.] They'll make new memories that'll dilute this one, though. [G: Of course.] It'll be okay.

G: There will be bigger regrets. [C laughs] C: Great. Maybe that also.

G: Yeah. So Crowley heads out, and Aziraphale is crying [C: Yes.] and like, turned away, and then [C: Yes!]- Like, what? Before he turns away, he like, touches his mouth. Whatever. [C: What do you mean, "whatever"?] Again, I don't really care that much about this.

C: Noo! Why? [both laughing] What do you mean "whatever"?

G: Okay, well, okay, talk about it, I suppose.

C: I- Okay, I guess, okay, he presses like, two fingers to his mouth. It's not like a soft brush. Like, a soft brush, is like "I need to get my mouth used to feeling normal again," or like, "I still can't believe that happened." And it's not like- some gestures would feel like they're like, trying to like, wipe the kiss like off, or something like that, right? [G: Yeah.] But like, it's not either of those things. Like, he puts the two fingers there and then he just presses, like, medium pressure, down. [G: Yeah, just to feel it there.] Yeah. And like, I think it can also definitely be read as like, he's like, trying to like, embed it into his lips. And, well, that's crazy.

G: I'm sorry I'm not engaging well with this scene. It's just, I do not like it. [exhales] Yeah!

C: What don't you like about it?

G: I mean, we've not brought up the word "sexual assault" this scene [C: That's true, but-], but yeah. I don't like that! [laughs]

C: That's fair. [G: Yeah.] Yeah. [G: Yeah.] And then after that, he just lets his hand fall angrily down, and then he's moving his jaw a little, like he wants to work that like, out of his sense memory.

G: Yeah. Also, he's crying. He's crying in this scene. [C: He has been crying the whole time, yes.] Yeah. And like, what fucking gets to me is like, he turns away, right? Turns to the side. And then [overlapping] the door opens. The bell of the door opens, [C: Yes.] and, like, the bell rings or whatever, so like, he hears this. And his immediate reaction is like, dips his head to the door, and it's not Crowley. It's not Crowley. It's the Metatron. It's so obvious that he thought it was gonna be Crowley because the moment the Metatron walks in, he turns away and is like, "Yeah, I'm gonna collect myself now." If he knew that this was the Metatron from the beginning, he wouldn't have even looked. He would just like, turn away, because he's trying to hide his face. But like, because he thought it was Crowley-

C: Yeah. In that moment of hope, what do you think- Do you think he just like, what? Is he imagining that Crowley's like, "Sorry, I changed my mind. I'll go with you." Like, just uncomplicatedly? Or is it just like, "We have a chance to like, have another argument and maybe have a different outcome?"

G: Yeah. Yeah. "Let's talk it out," or maybe even, not like "I'm gonna come with you!" but like, "I'm sorry for doing that. And also, if you want to come back," [tearing up] yeah. "If you want to come back," I don't know, "I'll be here." I don't know. It's like, it's horrible. Horrible!

C: Horrible! Yeah, and it's also like, the last time they had a fight, like, probably in the last 4 years, was 2.01, and Crowley did come back [G: Immediately, pretty much.] pretty quickly afterwards and go like, "You are 100% fully right." Yeah, we had the discussion about Crowley always being the one- often being the one to come back after their fights, and Aziraphale's just like, "Well, maybe this is like 1941. Maybe this is like, last week. Like, maybe we can come back from this like we did everything else, even though this one's way worse." Yeah. But do you think he had things he wanted to say for if Crowley came back, or was this just like a "If Crowley comes back, I think she'll have something to say to me."

G: I don't know. But like, I think about the fact that, you know, like, their last fight in 2.01, like, Aziraphale's waiting. [C: Yes.] Like, looking at the door. And then comes in and like, pretends to not care. And like, here, it's like, Aziraphale can't do that. [C: Yeah.] If Crowley came back through that door, Aziraphale wouldn't be demure about like, "Oh, but you need to apologize." Like, because this is such a different caliber of fight. [C: Yeah.] Here, there is like, an actual risk that Crowley would just be mad forever. And, you know, the Metatron comes in, Aziraphale collects himself, and then the Metatron asks, like, "What happened with Crowley. How did he take it?" And Aziraphale’s just, "Not well!" And then, like, is putting on the happy voice. And throughout this scene, we see this a lot. Like, Aziraphale just being like, "Okay, now, I will smile, and like, put on my happy voice." The Metatron was like, "Yeah, I mean, Crowley always wanted to like, go his own way and always asking damn fool questions too." [C: Yeah.] Aww. [C: Sorry, Crowley.] And this whole time, Aziraphale is looking out the window [C: Mm-hm.] and keeps on looking out the window. I didn't really figure out that Crowley would be outside. [C: Mm.] I don't know what I was thinking this scene. Like, I don't recall. Again, as you may remember, I like, hated this episode the first time I watched it. And I was like, pissed, and I didn't like anything. So like, at this scene, I wasn't even like, thinking- I wasn't engaging emotionally with the scene at all, I was just like, "Yeah, it's happening. It's happening. Let's just get this over with. I want to go to sleep." So like, Aziraphale, like, looking out the window like this, I didn't really think about it. But like, what a shock it would have been if I cared, if I GAFed in that moment. [C: Uh-huh.] Aziraphale's looking out the window over and over again, and, in your head, if you think about it and are engaging with it, you're like, "Is Crowley outside?" And then you fucking go outside, and Crowley's just standing there. Like, that would have been a crazy reveal if I cared. [C laughs] Unfortunately, I didn't, so. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] But holy shit, he's just looking outside.

C: And, well, Muriel is halfway to thinking Aziraphale's in love with them. [laughs] [G: Exactly.] 'Cause Muriel is also standing there.

G: Yeah, no, but like, it's crazy, because, like, everybody wants to fuck Aziraphale. But like, Muriel is gonna be like, "I don't wanna fuck Aziraphale. But I think Aziraphale wants to fuck me!" [both laughing] They're the exception. They're the exception that proves the rule. [C: Yeah.] The Metatron goes like, "Ready to start?"

C: Yeah. Even though earlier, he was like, "Take all the time you need." [G: Yeah.] Like, this is clearly like a "I just set this up so you two would divorce. Let's go!"

G: Aziraphale starts walking backwards, like, walking backwards, to the window! He goes like, "Oh, but like, my bookshop!" And the Metatron goes, "I've entrusted it to Muriel, so," and we see Muriel outside, just waving their hand! And it's like, "Aziraphale and Crowley are literally getting divorced right now." [C laughs] But you go, Muriel.

C: Yeah. And I just really like that Aziraphale’s like, "Oh, but I can't go yet." thing is what Crowley said. Like, "You can't leave this bookshop." Yeah.

G: Aziraphale's still hesitating, hesitating, and then the Metatron goes, "Anything you need to take with you?" Aziraphale’s just looking and looking and looking at that fucking window. And he like, walks up to the Metatron, goes like, "I think I-" and then stops, looks again at the window, and then looks forward, puts on his smile, and goes, "Nothing at all." [C: Yeah.] It's crazy because, like, this entire scene, Aziraphale's looking and looking and looking and looking and looking and looking and looking and looking, and then we get out, and like, so purposefully isn't looking at Crowley. [C: Uh-huh.] And it's like, we know that Aziraphale hesitated. We know that Aziraphale thought about it and considered it and was looking at Crowley the entire time he was looking, he was thinking it and considering it. But to Crowley, it's like, "And Aziraphale walks out of that bookshop, hesitates looking at me in the eye, for most of it, like, purposefully doesn't even look at me."

C: Where was Crowley looking when Aziraphale was looking out at the window?

G: I don't think towards Aziraphale, honestly.

C: Yeah, well, 'cause once Aziraphale goes outside, Crowley's just looking at that elevator, right? Like, doesn't move. [G: Yeah.] Has Crowley just been standing there, looking at the elevator?

G: Yeah, like, his eyes move, but like, his body doesn't. 'Cause it's the same, you know, it's the same sightline. Like, just looking at the door of the bookshop in the elevator. Well. [C: Yeah.] We cut outside, and Crowley is, as I've said, just fucking standing there and looking. And it is crazy to me. I mean, I didn't know this scene. I've never seen this scene. I didn't know that this is how the show would end. But like, the fact that for majority of this season, a lot of like, my talking points about Aziraphale and Crowley's relationship is about how, like, Crowley is the one looking, and like, how in Job, when Aziraphale was figuring out the goat situation, Crowley just looks. When the children getting transformed back from lizards, when Aziraphale was making the decision to not reveal the situation, Crowley just looks. In like, 1827, that entire time, Aziraphale's doing his thing and doing his thing and doing his thing, and Crowley, just like, watches and waits for Aziraphale to figure stuff out. And then here, [C: Yeah.] it's exactly what happens. Crowley is just standing there, looking at Aziraphale, thinking, "What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do?" All those other times that I mentioned, I don't think it particularly affected Aziraphale’s decision. In those situations, Crowley really was just observing, you know? But here, it's like, this is like, affecting the situation. Crowley being here and standing here, hand in pocket, just watching and watching and watching. I think I've said this last recording, right? Like, I think it pushes Aziraphale, actually, into the action, having Crowley there watching and thinking, "You'll change your mind." and like, disbelievingly being like, "You're making the wrong choice." Like, I think it does push Aziraphale.

C: Is that how you read Crowley's face when they're standing there? [G: Here?] Or do you just think that's how Aziraphale reads Crowley's face.

G: The second one. [C: Okay.] How I would read Crowley's face, I don't know. I've said constantly, I've used the word "taunt" constantly, and I do think this is that. I think this is a taunt. Yeah.

C: I don't see that. But I guess- [G: Well, what do you see it as?] I think it's just- like, Crowley can't leave. Like, they just- I think they're standing there because they can't help it. I think it's just like, "Well, this is the last I'll ever see of him, and I need to make sure- I have to stand here and watch him go, because I need to make sure he really is going to do that. 'Cause until the very last second, I still- I can't live like this. I need to make sure it's actually happening."

G: Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, that's the perspective from Crowley. [C: Though, I mean-] Like, "Are you really gonna do it?" And then, like, "Yeah." [pained sound] Crowley's watching, and it like- this is the part that, like, I did feel greatly affected when we pan to Aziraphale and the Metatron, and they're talking, backs towards Crowley, and like, Aziraphale isn't even bothering to look in that direction. And it's like, how- the way it's framed is like, it's Crowley-you can see, like, Crowley's silhouette on the side, like, blurred out. [C: Yeah.] Like, we are seeing this from over Crowley's shoulder. Aziraphale won't even look. [C: Mm.] Yeah, the Metatron is saying, like, "Oh, like, I can't think of a better angel to like, wrap things up and set things into motion in the next- in the next step in the great plan." And Aziraphale's like, "Yeah, like, you keep on saying that, but like, what is it?" And the Metatron is like, "Oh, it's something that we need an angel of your talents to direct. Someone who is familiar with how they do things on Earth. [C: Yeah.] We call it... the Second Coming." [C: Music cue!] Dun-dun-dun! Yeah. The first coming is, of course, [both laugh] when Aziraphale and Crowley came inside each other so hard and so raw in 1.06 and then [overlapping] became immune to holy water and hellfire. Yeah. Oh, god! [both laugh] So they're walking to the Dirty Donkey, the Metatron, like, goes into the elevator, and like, just looks at Aziraphale, like me and Crowley.

C: Aziraphale's frozen as soon as the Second Coming statement has been issued.

G: And the thing is- [exhales] Oh god. What happens is Aziraphale like, sees this, and is looking at the Metatron, and like, gives like, a little smile, but before he steps forward, he, like, stops himself, and he turns to look at Crowley- like, his head turns to look at Crowley. The way Aziraphale turns his head is, he turns his head first before his eyes, [C: Yeah.] almost like he's afraid to look. [C: Yeah.] And it fucking gets to me. It's like, "Maybe, if I turn my head and you won't be there, it won't be that bad." But, like, Crowley is there. [C: Mm-hm.] Crowley's there. [C: Yeah.] Just looking. Always just looking. We like, pan to Crowley, who's just standing there. This shot is so fascinating to me because, like, there's music. There's background music happening here. So when I was like, putting it in the AMV, there's no music anymore, right? It was just the clip. [C: Mm-hm.] The people are walking so slow. [C: Hm.] Like, the people are walking in slow-motion, and the two of them- and it was crazy to me! I was like, "Why is everything in slow-motion?" And, I don't know. Maybe I was just imagining it, but, I mean, it's an effect to like, make them standing there, like, more distinct, I suppose. Like, changing up the speed of the people around them. [C: Yeah.] But like, I don't know. As someone who has frequently talked about like, Crowley being like, the time manipulator of the two of them, it makes me feel crazy! That, like, what? Is like, time being slowed down right now? What's the situation?

C: Right, like, you feel like Crowley just like, unconsciously is doing this because of how they're feeling right now?

G: Yeah, maybe. I mean, it could also just be that this is like, a pieced-together scene, because, you know, filming during COVID is difficult, but it's crazy to me! It's crazy to me. We go back to Aziraphale, and he just turns around, does an inhale, and smiles, and then walks into that elevator. [C: Mm.] He is just looking ahead. And throughout this part, like, his face is mostly just like, a bit of shocked, a bit like, "Wuh." And then like, it kind of ends with, like, just a hint of like, he's about to smile. But that's for later. [C: Oh, you're skipping to that. Okay, yeah.] We go to Crowley. And he just watches this. Watches this elevator close. And he's standing by the side of Give Me Coffee or Give Me Death. So he just looks around to Nina, who is there, and Nina, like, waves at him a little bit. And then he looks over to Maggie, who is sleeping behind the counter, which I thought was cute, honestly, [laughs] and then goes into the car. The car starts- like, does he turn on- like, he turns on the engine [C: Yes.], and then the radio starts playing "A Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square."

C: Yeah, specifically, I like checked- like, based on the instruments that come before and after, this is the one in the verse that goes, like, "I may be right, I may be wrong, but I'm perfectly willing to swear / that when you turned and smiled at me, a nightingale sang in Berkeley Square," which- I think it's there for the "I may be right, I may be wrong" part, which I think is neat. [G: Yeah.] It still would have made more sense to pick the one that comes after, like, "And when we kissed and said goodnight," 'cause like, that is technically what happened, just like, [laughs] a twisted, evil version of that. But like, maybe that would have been a bit too obvious, so I appreciate the subtlety of this one instead. And someone on the Tumbles has like, found that the length of the clip that plays is the exact length of the kiss, and like, yeah.

G: Yeah! Yeah. I saw a Tweet of that, actually, and then like, a video like, lining them up. And I thought it was quite funny, [laughing] because, like, the song, like, they start it from like, Crowley walking towards Aziraphale, which I thought was so funny. Like, that's not even part of the kiss. [C: I-] But whatever. Whatevs.

C: It's the beginning of it! I think it counts. But yeah. That's a fun video.

G: I just think you can fit anything anywhere. [C laughs] [C: I guess you can.] Crowley is done with this, stops the music, and starts driving off. And, you know, we see Muriel go into the bookshop as the Bentley just very slowly [C: Yeah.] moves through Soho.

C: Yeah. It's good. I like that they have so many shots of the Bentley going so fast through Soho throughout the season to really drive this home.

G: We cut to like, a shot of Crowley's face just, while driving. [C: Yeah.] Scowl. You know. Upset.

C: Yeah. Defeated is the main adjective I'd use.

G: Okay, what happens is like, the screen, like, splits screen or whatever, and then the credits start rolling, and, you know, on the left side is Crowley, and on the right side is Aziraphale, and we just like, are on his face as the elevator ride goes up and up and up. [C: Yeah.] And you said this was like- there was like, a menacing smile here or whatever.

C: I- yes. I don't think it's menacing. I think it's determined, but it looks a little scary just because of the glint in his eye. [G: Yeah.] But that's not how you read it at all.

G: I just read it as like, determined, but probably not in the way you think it. [C: Just like, determined to make it through.] I think determined as in "Determined that, like, I made the right choice, I made the right choice," and it's like, "I'm trying to convince myself that by like, smiling, and whatever." Like, I didn't see the smile as like, I don't know. However, you saw it, but it's more of like, "It's something I'm forcing myself to do."

C: I think the smile is less the thing that makes me think that he's like, determined to go up there and stop the Second Coming. I think what makes me think that is after the Second Coming reveal, when, like, there's a music cue, and he stops, and he starts off looking like, sort of surprised and scared, and then, like, he seems to be running some calculations through his head, and like, when he's back, he looks a lot more determined than before, and I guess that could be like, your brand of determination, which is just like, "I'm gonna squash my emotions down and like, go and do my job." But like, I don't- Yeah, like I said earlier, I read it as like, "Well, like, before, I just like, wanted to go up to reform Heaven in certain ways. Now, I like have to go up to stop this." [G: Yeah.] I don't know. That's also what I read the look at Crowley as. Like, "Yeah, like I said, I'm doing this for both of us." And I think it's like a "I could back out of this right now and run back to you, but like, I can't. I'm like, working for the greater good of the Earth and all this shit." I really like the credits sequence.

G: I do, too. It lasts for a minute [C: Yes.], and we're just on their faces. And like, do you know The Graduation? Is that the movie?

C: The Graduate? Yeah. [G: Where they run away?] Our mutual Jeb has a video of the two of them together.

G: It really is like, you know, the denouement of this very intense situation. And then when, like, the thrill, almost, the adrenaline of the situation is fading, and it's like, "And this is our lives now." [sighs]

C: I like the contrast between the two of them. 'Cause like, Crowley is just driving, and her face is like, completely still. The only thing that really moves is like, their hand on the wheel. [G: Yeah.] And like, for Aziraphale, he's also very still, but the lighting in the elevator keeps changing, and like, yeah. [G: And his face keeps changing.] But I don't know if his face keeps changing because lighting can do a lot for how you view an expression. So it's like, I feel like it's the way the lighting changes that makes it feel like every time you seem like you've gotten a hold on-

G: He literally like, smiles more and then the smile disappears, and then- frowns- [C: Okay, I'm gonna go back and look at this.] He like, lifts his chin up and everything.

C: Yeah, there's there's bits of that, I guess. He is also changing his expressions, you're right. But I think, also, the light also helps it be like, "You can never really get a handle on what he's really thinking or feeling" because the way that the light flickers in and out and emphasizes different shadows also makes it seem like his expression is changing even at times when it's not.

G: Yeah. Okay, so in this scene like, we can assume that Crowley is like, going back to the flat, right? Aziraphale's obviously going to Heaven. And like, that does make me feel something. [C: Mm.] They're both going quote-unquote "home." [C: Yeah.] [pained sound] - G: Well, what do we think about this episode?

C: I mean, we talked about it over the course of three different recordings. [G: Yeah, and every recording is a different vibe.] I don't have a unified- Yeah.

G: I mean, obviously, the first part, we complained to hell and back, mostly about the Nina and Maggie stuff. I still think it's a terribly-written season. [C: Yes.] I didn't like this scene the first time I went in, and I did not give a shit at all. Now I do give a little bit more of a shit, but not still not like, as intensely as I thought I would. So yeah. It's fine! [laughs] I keep on saying that about this season, but like, it is fine. It's just- it's not great.

C: Yeah. For me, first half of this episode, like, hands down, the weakest part of the entire season. It disgusts me to think about. [G: Yeah.] And second half, I mean, it made be crazy for the rest of my life. So, you know, I guess the cancels out. PEMDAS, as you say.

G: PEMDAS, yeah. Okay, Best Line/Worst Line. My worst line is "You're not helping, angel." [C: God! Ew!] And she literally is not helping and not an angel. [C: Eww!] I literally, I out loud went, "Ew!" like, the first time it happened. [laughs] Literally, ew!

C: Yeah. I think I am agreed on that one.

G: My best line... I don't like any of the lines. [laughs] That's not true. That's a lie, I'm lying to you.

C: Just for for the sake of old me, like, I am giving the award to "I forgive you."

G: I suppose I like the line, the, "You and me. What do you say?" That really gets to me, actually. It's like, it's such a big ask. Like, Crowley is asking something big, but it's delivered with a cadence that is so casual, and, you know, we've discussed it, blah blah blah, but like, yeah, it's important to me, personally. [C: Yeah. Gayest/transest.] Gayest moment? [C laughing] [C: I mean-] My transest moment, as I've mentioned, is Beelzebub changing zir look and then falling in love. [C: Yeah.] Like, I think it's so nice. I think it's so nice. I've said it. I think it's wonderful.

C: Yeah, I think that's a very nice reading. I didn't really feel it at all emotionally, though, but I don't know where else to give the award. I think this isn't like, a very trans episode to me. Yeah, I'll just give it to your thing. I've not gotten anything- I have not got anything for transest. Gayest, not sure. Hard to- hard to say. 'Cause it's like, there are a lot of moments, but like, I don't know what "gayest" really means to me in this episode.

G: You know what? I would put Aziraphale, head empty, looking at Crowley in that scene. Pretty gay! [C: Yeah. That is pretty gay.] Like, when I first watched that, I was like, "Damn. Good lord."

C: I think I think Aziraphale wanting them to go to conversion therapy camp together [laughs], is pretty gay. [G: Pretty gay!] I mean, there's no- Predictions, we're doing a Q&A and a Season 3 talk-y episode, so we'll do that there.

G: Just a short one. "Just a short one," and it's two hours long. But like, probably, really, just a short one. So that's our- it's gonna be our "Goodbye, RubbishPod, for now," like, episode. And everything everything.

C: Yeah. As we said in the intro, we do have a Q&A. [G: Oh yeah!] Get your questions in by midnight Eastern time on December 1st, and specify that it's for the Q&A, or else we'll just answer it regular style.

G: Ratings out of ten. [C: Um.] You know what? I'm going to solidly place this as a 5.

C: Yeah, I've been thinking about that 5, but I don't- like, if we just weighted it, it is a 0 for the first half and like, a 9 for the second half for me. So like, that is how math works. [G: Yeah.] But like, I don't- I don't know if that's how my heart works. I don't know where I'd place it relative to everything else. It's difficult. Maybe that is- maybe my heart does work mathematically. I think a 5 makes sense.

Man! Okay, yeah. It's been a journey. But that's it for this week's episode of Rubbish and Probably a Podcast. Next time, we will be talking about, I guess, just the show in general and Season 3 feelings [G: Season 3 predictions.] and also, all of your questions. Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

G: Follow us on social media! We interact through the account set up for our Supernatural commentary podcast, Busty Asian Beauties. We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com, and you can email us at [email protected].

C: Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

G: It's Crover! It's done! We're done!

[Garageband "Everyday" plays] - [beep]

C: Did you start a sentence? G: No no no. C: Okay. I heard a distressed sound. G: That's just me, fundamentally, as a person. [C laughs] - [beep]

C: Regular customers are gonna file a class action lawsuit.

G: Yeah. I don't think they have that in the UK. [laughs] I think it's a purely American thing. [C: Oh.] The class action lawsuit. I'm not sure, actually. Maybe I'm lying. Maybe that's a lie and I'm lying to you. [C: Maybe.] [laughs] We need to stop referencing this Jerma video. We haven't even like, reblogged it as like a thing, you know?

C: I don't even know what you're referring to. [G laughs] I'm just referencing the time you said that.

G: [laughing] You don't know what I'm talking about? [C: No.] It's a video of Jerma, and like, basically, the post is like, somebody like, on Tumblr saying, like, “The thing with Jerma is, people will accuse him of something, and he'll deny it so terribly [C laughing] that it sounds like he actually did do the thing or is actually that thing” or whatever. And then, somebody replied with a clip of Jerma like- somebody goes like, in the chat going like, “Do you kill animals?” [C laughs] And he goes, “I don't kill animals, that's not true. That's a lie. They're lying to you. [both laughing] Be on the lookout for people with false information in the chat right now.” And I think about it constantly! [both laughing] [C: That's really good.] That really is a lie. Yeah, it's really good. I'll reblog it in the- 'cause the way he delivers it too is so funny. "It's a lie. They're lying to you." - [beep]

G: Wait, I just need to charge my lappytoppy. You know, I say lappytoppy in every given situation, and, like, most of my friends are like, just aware that this is how I say it, but occasionally, there will be like, a new person in my life, and I'll say it, and they'll be like, "What?" [C laughing] And I'm like, "Catch up! It's my lappytoppy." [C: Yeah, it is.] - [beep]

C: Hi, gamers! G: Hii! That's not how you say it. You say, "What's up, gamers?" C: What's up, gamers. G: No, you say, "What'sup gamers?" Like that. C: What'sup gamers? - [beep]

G: God, there's like a controversy recently- Not controversy, but like, this, like, I guess, American guy. 'Cause, you know, there's so many like, white guys- I mean, when I say "American guy" in this context, I'm talking mostly about, like, white Americans, you know. There's a term that they use. "Passport" something. And like, the invention is like, "I'm gonna go to this country, find a woman, marry the woman, [C: Ah.] and then go back to my country, and I'll be like, her passport. I'll be like, her, visa, whatever." It's so stupid. Whatever. You should do that for me, though. [both laughing] If you're a foreigner, please do it for me. [laughing]

C: Just a foreign- like, any country?

G: Well, not any country.

C: I guess not the Vatican. You still need divorce. Or, you need to gain divorce.

G: Yeah, still need to divorce. Exactly. But he was complaining about how like, “Oh, like, look at these like, coffee shops here in the Philippines. Like, Filipinos will just like, sit in a coffee shop for hours and like, work on their laptops or whatever. [C: What? That's what coffee shops are for!] And it's like, why are you doing that?” Exactly. And he's saying that like, “Just go to your apartment and work there. Like, what are you doing here?" And like, "You guys are like, doing this for, like, social status, [C: What?] like, to be seen outside drinking an expensive coffee.” [C: What?] And it's like, we don't have libraries here in the Philippines. Like, there's no like, public space to study. So like, where do you expect people to study? I don't like studying at home. Where the fuck am I gonna study? You know. And it's like, it's so annoying to me personally that people who are foreigners will just go places and be like, “You are not living your life the way I, an American, want to live my life, [C laughs] so therefore, you are like, terrible people who are uncivilized," whicih, you know, white people have been doing that for 5ever, but, ugh. [C: Ugh.] People are so annoying. [C: Sure are.] I hope every white person who comes here dies immediately. Unless [both laughing] they want to take me to the United States. Then, it's fine! Yeah! [both laughing] Die when we get to the United States after we get married, but other than that, it's fine. - [beep]

G: [singing] If old acquaintance be forgot- C: What’s up, gamers? G: [laughs] So true! - [beep]

G: He thinks he's so fun and fresh.

C: Yeah. Funky, even.

G: No, I think the funky is the opposite of fresh. [C: Really?] Actually, probably not. [laughing]

C: Anyway, so- You're talking, right?

G: [laughing] Riveting conversation on Rubbish podcast. [both laughing] This is the type of shit people tune in for. - [beep]

G: This is it. Goodbye, everyone! [both laughing] There's gonna be a 12.3! [laughing] [C: Wait.] No, I'm just gonna go to sleep, and then I'm gonna continue tomorrow, yeah.

C: Wait wait wait! I haven’t finished discussing Crowley's POV on this line! [both laughing] That was the Aziraphale POV! I have more notes! - [beep]

C: Do you think John Finnemore's staying?

G: Isn't there- I saw a news article recently- maybe two, three weeks ago, that the showrunner of Good Omens is leaving or something? [C: Oh. Who?] I don't know. I'm gonna Google it. But like, it's so funny because, like, on my Android phone, like, the browser like, shows you news, and it's like, catered to your interests. I don't know how they know my interests. Probably what I Google. But [laughs] all the news articles are like, Caravaggio, NCT 127, and then like, Good Omens. It's so funny to me! They would show me, like- the headlines of like, Good Omens is like, and they would have like, a picture of Aziraphale in there, and he would look like the saddest, wettest puppy alive. [C laughing] It's important to me.

C: Wait. What's the screenshot of? What episode? What scene?

G: I showed you one, and I was like, "This looks like- he looks like someone that, like, people would call ouppy in fucking Tumblr. [C laughing] Scrunglo, even." I sent that to you! Look up "ouppy" in our DMs. [C laughs]

C: Oh, fuck, that's the angle on the fucking "Come with me. To Heaven!"

G: Yeah, that one. He looks like he will cry so much and so much.

C: [laughing] The article above that is “An In-Depth Look at the Shockingly Even Line Distributions for Every Song on NCT 127's Factcheck Album."

G: [laughs] No, exactly! That's what I'm talking about. [C: That's great.] So wonderful. That's that's literally me. That's the things that I want to know about. Okay. So "Co-Showrunner Douglas Mackinnon Leaves Ahead of Season 3." [C: Oh! Douglas Mackinnon. Okay!] Okay. "For the first two seasons, Gaiman himself served as showrunner on Good Omens alongside Douglas Mackinnon. However, Mackinnon recently hinted on Instagram that he was no longer working on the show anymore, literally writing, ‘I'm not involved with the show anymore.’” [both laughing] That's so funny! Why did they word it like that? "He hinted on Instagram." And then the hint is like, "I'm not on the show anymore!" [both laughing] Moved on to other projects, yeah.

C: Yeah, I don't really know what showrunners do, so, I don't know, but that means there's more Neil Gaiman concentration, which is never a good thing.

G: [sighs] I mean, I don't know. We have never had more Neil Gaiman concentration because he was in the first two seasons to Douglas Mackinnon, so we never know. - [beep]

C: [bad audio] The other two people you could say are Daisy the Great and The Crane Wives, are the ones that I know.

G: I don't know those people. [C: Mm.] I'm going for famous pop duos, Crystal, not your obscure indie bullshit. [laughs]

C: It's so sad that I was filling my water bottle so none of that was caught on mic [G laughing] as a two-way conversation. [G laughing] [G: Exactly.] People will never know how cruel you are. - [beep]

G: It does frustrate me that Aziraphale and Crowley’s theme song is like, fucking “Nightingale Sang in Berkeley Square.” [C: Uh-huh.] Boo! [C: I mean-] Like, I complain that like, I don't want it to be a Queen song, because that's so like, Crowley-centric, so like, it needs to be something that both of them like.

C: And it is "Water Music" by Handel, to me, but yeah.

G: And I was like, "Maybe it's Liberace." [laughs] And maybe it is.

C: What were you saying about- you were talking about hating that this is their theme song. Why?

G: Okay, so I don't like the Queen. It's too Crowley-centric. And I don't like this because I don't like it. It's bad. [C: Huh. The song?] Yeah. No no no. Okay. And this one, I don't like it because, like- Yeah, [laughing] it's bad. The song.

C: Wait. What's wrong with the song? It’s a perfectly fine song! [G: I don't like it. Boo!] Is it just boring to you? [G: Yeah.] Is it “Moon Song” Phoebe Bridgers to you?

G: Yeah! Which is the very definition of a boring song.

C: Yeah. For the audience, I like “Moon Song” Phoebe Bridgers, but-

G: Yeah, and that song has filled me with so much hatred and anger because I read the lyrics once, and I was like, "That's so wonderful. It must come from a wonderful song!" [C laughs] [C: It does!] And then I listened to the song, and it's the most boring song in existence.

C: It comes from a beautiful, wonderful song! [G: They were not.] But yeah, I wish that hadn't happened to you because now you don't understand my Phoebe Bridgers “Waiting Room” Good Omens world. But yeah. [G: Yeah. And I will never understand!] You will never understand. Well, I just think that she knows whatever happens to them, like, they know it's for the be-e-etter. But anyway! [laughs]

#transcript #rubbishpod

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