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snowwhitelass · 3 years

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New Outlander Game Coming – Talking with the Game Designers

By: Erin Conrad, June 15, 2021

Gamers Corner, TV News

Outlander game, Sony, Starz Outlander, Variable Outcomes

Who wouldn’t want to dash around the Highlands with Jamie, trying to be his favorite, and rescuing him from trouble on the way? That definitely sounds like a fun time, even if all you can do is dream about it. Or IS that all you can do?

NO! Sometime this fall, a brand new board game will debut – Outlander The Series! Designed by the husband and wife team of Matthew and Ashley Killeen, the game will let you play with a bunch of your friends, meeting familiar faces along the way, and getting in and out of all kinds of scrapes. The game will be available for holiday shopping, so you can start to set up your Outlander game nights now. I had the opportunity to talk with Matthew and Ashley about the development of this new game, and learned some details.

From the game’s marketing information: “His fate is in your hands! Step through the stones of Craigh Na Dun and run through the Scottish Highlands with the handsome Jamie. The year is 1743, and the outlaw James Fraser is at your side as you navigate the thrills and dangers of the Highlands. Use your wit, reach the right locations, make the right friends, and gather the items you need, all while keeping Jamie out of the hands of the many who would do him wrong. The gallows await fair Jamie (or worse!) should you fail. Fulfill your destiny, and win his heart. Only then will victory be yours!”

Outlander is the Killeen’s first big franchise game. “From a business point of view, it’s something I always wanted to do,” Matthew said. “I enjoy games with an IP license attached, TV show or movie, and I have designed prototypes that might be good for Ghostbusters or Star Trek. I really wanted to get into that.” Ashley knew Matthew was interested in trying a licensed game, and said “I’ve been watching Outlander, you should make a game based on that.” Matthew hadn’t yet seen the show, so he said “you do it” – and she did.

Ashley didn’t get into the show until season three. “The first version (of the game) was based on the book, because I thought that might be the avenue to go. But it ended up being more layers to secure the book rights than TV. We heard back from Starz/Sony quickly, and the show and book were similar enough that I didn’t have to change too much from initial design. I swapped out characters and items that didn’t translate from one to another. Jamie still has same event encounters, the same enemies. It’s nice to look at both sides, to really put in all those little hidden tidbits from show. I’m hoping that fans of the show will enjoy all those subtle things that I’ve put in. But the other thing we wanted to make sure was that it was not dependent upon being familiar with the show, because the last thing you want is a game with Outlander masked on top of it that doesn’t play as anything on its own. And having a lot of friends who knew nothing about Outlander, how could I get them to the table?”

Matthew said, “One of philosophies for the board game stuff was that I’ve seen games that were maybe like a movie spin on top. Is this fun or exciting because of the game, or just because of the movie or tv show tie in? And one reason, the biggest reason why I got excited was when I first played it, I had never seen the show. I knew nothing about it. I had never seen the characters, and yet, I still enjoyed it. It was a good game.” Ashley added, “He has since seen the show.” Matthew continued, “That’s another thing that’s always bothered me. I feel like if a certain publisher or game designer makes something but doesn’t know the back story, that’s lazy. As soon as I found out we were going to do this, I watched the show. I know all my lore now. I was obviously able to play the game again once I knew the show and the lore, and it made the game play better.” “You understood my decisions,” said Ashley. “Exactly,” said Matthew. “Whether you know the show or not, it’s a good game.”

Ashley discussed their process: “I started December 2019. This past December, we were finally able to go forward. We got the contract from Sony in November. It was a long process! We got approvals for the design of the game, and access to the virtual library. We could figure out images that would go with the components we had.” Once they had that, Matthew figured out the graphic design for the game.

Was Sony/Starz helpful? Enthusiastic? Ashley said, “They were enthusiastic. They didn’t really have a board game. They had Destiny Dice, but that wasn’t the same thing.” (For my review of Destiny Dice, a game that came out a couple of years ago, click here.) I’ve had reservations about this previous game, so I asked how they overcame the failings of that one to make this new game. My concern with a platform like this is that the show is so big and layered – a group of women will come together over a glass of wine or three, and are they going to be able to figure it out easily enough to have a good time in an evening? Ashley feels that the new game will let us do that. “The idea behind this was that we wanted to bring everybody to the table – people whose board games lives consisted of Scrabble for their whole lives, and those who have played campaigning, like Mage Knights, epically, every week. We want to bring both those sets to the table. It should be intuitive enough once you’ve figured out the first turn order. It’s the repetition of that, it’s just your personal strategy that changes on what you choose to do, but the game play isn’t going to change on you as you go.”

She added, “But there’s enough in there that if you are an experienced board game player, you’re not sitting there bored waiting for the next thing to happen. That was our goal, as many people at the same table as possible enjoying it at the level they’re at. You can have the game player who knows nothing about Outlander, and you can have the Outlander fan who doesn’t play board games, and they will have a good evening. We also tried to be strategic about the length, because you don’t want to have just a tease of a game, because then you can’t be really invested and immersed in that world, but we also know, especially being parents now, you don’t have time to spend four hours on a game. That’s not going to happen any more. What’s a good length? If you can watch an episode of Outlander, you can play a round. So we wanted to find something that made sense. A lot of these pieces, once you apply a little logic to it, they fell together really nicely.”

This is the first “franchise” game the Killeens have designed. The fascination with board games started in 2004, and in 2011, Matthew began to design games as hobby. “I enjoyed playing, but in between then I was going to school and forgot about it. As school was winding down, I really got into it. I created an educational game called Witchful Thinking. We’re both teachers, and when doing practicum, the teacher (that he was working with) had kids doing games for math. but they were really boring, and the kids didn’t like it at all. I remembered I had a game that worked for this! I started looking at my business from a professional point of view, filling in gaps in the market. I wanted to bring people to a table they hadn’t been to yet. Witchful Thinking is a card game – witches brewing potions, teaching math – subtraction, addition, pre-algebra, and more advanced math. It was a great educational tool.” The company has more ideas – they have an upcoming Kickstarter for a game called Tennessee James, an Indiana Jones parody (learn more here). Matthew says that the company expects to bring out many more titles – “Between the two of us, we have a backlog of designs.”

When do they expect to have this out? Matthew said definitely for the Christmas season. “I am working with manufacturers right now, trying to iron out some of those details, but we’re going to be moving into manufacturing right now. It depends on how long it takes to do the mass production plus shipping, but I would estimate this would maybe in stores (or online retailers) by October. That’s probably a good estimate.”

Did they do a lot of testing? “We needed especially non-Outlander fans to play this game. The Outlander fans, it didn’t take a lot of convincing to get them to play,” said Matthew. “Even before there were pictures on the cards, they knew the board, they knew the characters. So even if you had a blank piece of paper that just said Murtagh on it, they know what it means. I wasn’t worried about the Outlander fans, and the game play is pretty intuitive, once you go through the steps. So once you’ve done a round, you can keep going around, no problem. So we were just like, ok, you don’t know what these names mean and where these places are, but you’ve got a bit of the information, are you on board? And so far the reaction has been, yes, I feel like I’m playing a game, even if they don’t know who Jamie is or anything like that.”

He continued, “The tall and short of it is that this that this has been play tested thoroughly. It’s not broken, and the most important part is that it’s fun.” Ashley added, “It’s a nice balance of cooperative, nobody wants Jamie to come to any harm, but you still want to be his favorite. So you can get a little catty, and that’s what makes the fun. You’ll be adding something a little stronger to your tea nights once you start playing that way.”

Matthew said, “One of my strategies for play testing is that I like to try different strategies each time and see what works and what doesn’t .Ashley laughed, “You played mean one time.” “Yeah, it’s my wife, I’ve got to play nice, right? But one time, I didn’t play nice, and I took a competitive edge, and it was awesome,” he said. So players, remember that!

“When I was working on Witchful Thinking, I was looking to put it into Walmart and Target. But they don’t want to talk to the independent company, they want to make sure they’re getting multiple products from the same distributors. So we want to make sure that the distributors that we get are also trying to get the game out there. I do have distribution in the US for Witchful Thinking, and they’re excited to take on this one.”

What was your favorite part of the game, as you play it, I asked? Ashley said, “I like the QuickSave. This is a component we have because Jamie is always going to move in a predictable pattern, and the three villains he’s trying to avoid – Black Jack Randall, the Redcoats and the Watch – those are all the Meeples that are going to be moving around. As you are collecting friends along the way, if you happen to be en route to an Encounter, you can use the special abilities from your friends. So maybe it’s Dougal who is going to be discarded, and that will be a Quicksave to put Jamie back in hiding, so the game’s not over, you haven’t captured him yet. I like that idea, the Quicksave. So you’re strategizing, not just for what’s going to give you a lot of Favor from Jamie to try to win his heart in the game, but where are these people going to help me if Jamie is in a pickle. Because he’s going to get himself in a lot of pickles.”

As he does on the show, I said! Ashley continued, “And as a designer, that’s a fun way for me to tie in the personality of the characters. There’s a reason why they have the values that they do. There was a little argument between us in the design phase, because I made Willie – Willie Mackenzie from the first season – he has this hidden kind of superpower that most of the time, he’s a bit weaker, but when the danger level’s up, he’s strong. Matt was criticizing that, ‘he’s a minor character, why is he so strong?’ But you haven’t been paying attention. Because when Jamie’s in Wentworth, it’s Willie who’s willing to go. So that’s his power, when things are toughest, he’s the one that can save the most. I was having fun finding those little nuggets, the lore, that fans love, and if you’re paying attention to how I’ve designed it, you’ll start seeing like why you get more Favor in some places, or more Wit, or why you have the saving abilities.”

The women playing will like seeing that, I agreed. “I think that we’ve got it so that your favorite characters, from S1 at least, this is just in the Highlands, you’re going to see them, I think they’ll do you proud,” Ashley says. “We’re still excited about it, even though it’s been a year and a half doing it, so I think that says something about it, that we can still be passionate about it, little choices like that, I think the game has life.” Ashley told me that she has ideas for additional Outlander games to follow each season, so this may go on for quite a while!

As their cute kids came into the room, I asked if game design was full time, or is this an extra job? Ashley said, “I’m a full time teacher, so I’m squeezing this in between the report card writing and the classroom stuff. With a bunch of changes with Covid, it’s made more sense for Matthew to stay home, so we decided to go all in, make this run for itself.” Matthew said, “I can speak from the graphic design standpoint – I didn’t design the gameplay, Ashley did that, but I offered suggestions here and there, it was her decision on things, and she made some great decisions. And between that, I did the playtesting and the graphic design in January and early February, I’ve put in hundreds of hours, not just with the graphic design, but also the business stuff too, figuring out social media posts, getting things approved by Sony, talking with the distributors. So this has been not just like a full time job, but overtime, I’ve put in some serious hours for this.”

Since this is the company’s first big license, I asked if is this something they want to continue. “Absolutely,” Matthew said. “And I knew that when I turned this into a hobby back in 2011. I enjoy making board games. I enjoying making movies, watching movies, reading books, all that stuff. I needed some sort of creative outlet. And this was it. I enjoy tabletop games, so I found a business that I’m passionate about. But I found over the years, since I am a small business, I had to learn everything. I can do the game design, I can do the graphic design, the IP stuff, social media, the PR, distribution. I have all those experiences, so if I can continue this, I’ll be very happy.”

Price point for the game should be $48.99 CA (US equivalent is about $40). And it will be available in the US, and more – Matthew says, “The territories we have with Sony are Canada, USA, UK, Australia and France. We’re a small family run company, but at the same time, this is a big license. So we want to do the fans proud, we want to do this IP proud, so we want to give the biggest reach that we can.” Ashley said, “We’re limited because we’re not the distributors, so once we put it in those hands, it’s really up to those stores that want to put it on their shelves. So until we know where they’re placing it, I can’t tell you ‘oh, pick it up here.’ ” Matthew agreed. “I have experience with all of that, so when I made Witchful Thinking and released that, I had a hard time getting distribution. So I went store to store, city to city, and I made those contacts myself. For me as a business owner, I’m not just one of those owners who throws money out and does it. I have experience in all these aspects. So when this game comes out, let’s say that distribution doesn’t have as far of a reach as possible, I’ll make it happen. With Covid especially, the online market is important.”

“From a business standpoint, we’re a new company,” Matthew said. “It seems that we’re very new to this but that’s not really the case. This game has been been in development for a long time, and between the two of us we have 20+ games in prototypes. So we definitely know how to make games, and make games fun. And the fact that we’re both teachers, I think makes it even better. Because as teachers, we have to know how to sell to an audience.” ” And explain the games,” Ashley added.

PRE-ORDER THE GAME RIGHT HERE! Three if by Space has the game available for pre-orders in our Collectibles shop!! Click here to go to the pre-order page!

#outlander board game #three if by space #sony #outlander starz #starz outlander #outlander game #scottish highlands #craigh na dun

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fatesdeepdive · 3 years

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Entry 9: NO

Before doing anything else, I built a lottery house in the castle. The logistics of there being stores and gambling houses within my personal castle, that my soldiers work at, that don’t just give me whatever I want is kinda weird. The lottery gave me a radish I fed to Lilith.

Support: Hana/Subaki

C: Hana confronts Subaki about his tendency to refer to himself as perfect. He brushes it off, because he thinks that he genuinely is completely without fault. This angers Hana, who brings up a time Subaki fell off his horse and challenges him to a duel.

B: The duo begin their competition. Subaki, despite not actually having any sword skills, manages to defeat Hana by studying her fighting style over several months and messing with her head.

A: Hana takes the second round, beating Subaki in a horse race. Hana reveals that she doesn’t actually care about beating Subaki, just about serving Sakura, and the two decide to suspend their competition.

S: Subaki states that he hates when Hana brings up the time he fell off his horse because he embarrassed himself in front of Hana. Also the duo apparently love each other now.

Review: Decent set up, lackluster execution. I do like Hana’s feelings of inferiority in comparison to Subaki, and Subaki is wonderfully arrogant during this line, but the resolution comes from a revelation Hana had off screen and feels anti-climactic. I felt nothing during the marriage conversation.

Support: Hana/Sakura

C: Hana and Sakura discuss their childhood friendship and the fact that Hana has been protecting Sakura since even before she was a retainer. Sakura states that Hana’s stubbornness pairs nicely with her own introversion.

B: Hana reveals that Sakura’s kindness gave her a reason to dedicate herself to becoming a master samurai. Sakura reveals that she chose Hana as her retainer, in spite of her age and objections from others, because of...a reason explained in the next conversation. Gotta love cliffhangers.

A: Sakura chose Hana as her retainer because of all the times she protected her as a kid, so many times that Hana is covered in scars. Sakura feels guilty over Hana’s scars, but Hana brushes it off, stating that her scars are a badge of honor because they were earned protecting Sakura. Small character design note: Hana does not have any visible scars in this game. She does consistently have a scar in her arm in Heroes, and inconsistently has a scar on her left thigh, but neither of those scars are visible in game. Maybe the scars are hidden below her headband?

Review: First off, these two deserve an S-Rank conversation. They have more chemistry than most of the couples in this game. Setting that aside, I enjoy Hana and Sakura inspiring each other to be better. I love the idea of Hana protecting Sakura from feral dogs and Sakura repaying her by making her a retainer, going against royal officials to do so.

Support: Sakura/Subaki

C: Subaki yawns in front of Sakura then pretends it didn’t happen, because he is too perfect to get fatigued.

B: Subaki makes a tiny slip-up when filling out a form and has a complete meltdown, launching into a self-depreciating rant. Hana brings up that she’s seen him make mistakes before, which only makes things worse.

A: Sakura comforts Subaki and he reveals that his obsession with perfection stems from his childhood; his parents hammered in the idea that he must be perfect at all times as to not embarrass himself in front of royalty. He brings up the time he fell off his horse in front of Sakura right before she chose him as a retainer and reveals that he’s thought for years she chose him out of pity. Sakura comforts him, saying that he’s amazing and his slip-ups only make him more charming.

S: Subaki renews his vows as a retainer, promising to always fight for Sakura even if he cannot achieve total perfection. Sakura accepts, on the condition that Subaki marries her.

Review: I actually really enjoyed this one. The main gag with Subaki is that he’s arrogant and thinks of himself as perfect. This line deconstructs that, showing him fall apart at the idea that he isn’t good enough. It didn’t go fully into it, but this line suggests that Subaki may have some real mental health issues, possibly stemming from an abusive childhood. The romance isn’t perfect, but I do like the idea of Subaki ending up with Sakura because she helps him learn to accept himself. Also for all of Sakura’s supports I’m going to pretend that she isn’t like fourteen, because otherwise they’re all super creepy.

Support: Corrin/Sakura

C: Corrin asks if Sakura dislikes her and Sakura, who has never once visited any Fire Emblem or Smash Brothers forum, states that no one could ever dislike Corrin. Apparently, Sakura is awkward and shy around Corrin because she sucks at talking to people. Corrin offers to help her practice talking.

B: Corrin asks Sakura some basic questions and Sakura freezes up from anxiety and can’t answer anyone. Corrin theorizes that Sakura is easily intimidated by other people.

A: Sakura reveals that she’s always so anxious because she heard a rumor that Nohr actually wanted to kidnap her, not Nohr. This rumor was evidently false, because it makes absolutely no sense from a lore perspective. Also, I question the idea that this is the source of all of Sakura’s anxiety. Her anxiety around Corrin, maybe, but it’s odd that guilt over her sister’s kidnapping that she’s known for years wasn’t her fault would make her anxious around other people. I mean, it’s more pronounced around Corrin, but only in this support line. Whatever. Corrin swears to protect Sakura and I guess that means her anxiety is cured.

Review: This conversation is mediocre. Sakura getting anxiety because of something a maid said once is stupid, but Corrin trying to help her get over it is okay.

You’ll notice that I stopped this at the A rank. Well, you see, Corrin and Sakura only have three, conversations instead of four because, despite Corrin having a variable gender, Corrin and Sakura are siblings and Intelligent Systems would never include incest in a Fire Emblem game. They’d never do that because that would be terrible.

Wait. What’s that? Why does it say on the wiki that they have an S-Conversation? Surely this isn’t real.

Oh god it’s real.

No.

No no no.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

What the fuck, Intelligent Systems? Why did you include incestuous pedophilic marriage in your role-playing game? Seriously, what the actual fuck?

And, looking at Corrin’s support list, it’s not just Sakura. Every single Nohr and Hoshidan royal can date Corrin. I don’t know what’s worse, Corrin having sex with her stranger blood siblings or having sex with the people she thought were her blood siblings for years. Fine. Let’s just do the stupid conversation.

S: Sakura reveals that she’s been dreaming about the sibling she never knew for years, imagining what Corrin would grow up to be like. It’s actually a decent idea, albeit one hidden in the evil cursed S-Support that I hate. Corrin asks if they live up to expectations and Sakura states that they exceed them. Then Sakura says that she loves Corrin. Romantically. Corrin, being the sane person, objects, pointing out that they’re half-siblings. I don’t know where this half-sibling thing came from, as far as Corrin knows both of them are the children of Mikoto and Sumeragi. I mean, it is stated in Revelations that Mikoto isn’t actually the mother of anyone but Corrin, but Corrin doesn’t know that yet. Whatever. Sakura pulls out a letter from Mikoto that she only read a few minutes ago that says, psych! Corrin and Sakura aren’t actually related. At all. So it’s cool to bang. Corrin instantly gets over the whole “Don’t fuck your little sister” thing immediately and proposes to Sakura. What the actual fuck.

Review Continued: If ninety percent of the S-Rank conversation is convincing the audience that, no, this isn’t incest, you know it’s bad. And sure, it isn’t technically incest anymore, but who cares? Corrin and Sakura didn’t know that until ten seconds before they screwed each other. This is an incestuous marriage and it’s fucking gross. The writers clearly know it was gross, but they included it anyway.

And here’s the big problem with the Hoshidan sibling marriages: Birthright is built on the premise that this is Corrin’s real family, that Hoshido is her real home. It’s literally called Birthright. But if Corrin isn’t actually related to the Hoshidan Royals, all of that falls apart. They’re just strangers. The whole concept of the game doesn’t apply anymore. Because Intelligent Systems couldn’t release a game where the player insert doesn’t fuck literally every character. And, until we get to the point in Revelations where that is properly revealed, I’m going to pretend I don’t know it.

We got some new characters at the end of the last chapter, so let’s talk about them.

Silas

Silas is a cavalier who went turncloak for Corrin at the end of the last chapter because of a childhood friendship Corrin doesn’t remember. His personal skill makes him fight better when Corrin is injured. I’m starting to notice just how many of these skills specifically relate to Corrin, which makes sense but is still kinda weird. His design is fine, nothing objectionable there. I do think Silas’s forgotten childhood friend backstory is a bit odd, though. And I’m getting sick of characters who are obsessed with Corrin.

Saizo

Saizo is Kaze’s twin brother who looks like twenty years older than him. He’s the slower but tougher of the duo, judging from their stats. His personal skill Pyrotechnics is basically just him blowing shit up, which as far as I’m concerned is his solution to all problems. His mask is really weird looking, but at least he’s visually interesting. Personality wise, he seems like a dick, but in a good way. Our army needs some common sense and he brings it.

Orochi

Real talk: I forgot this character existed until she joined us. Orochi is a mage...er, diviner who has the personal skill Capture, which I’ll talk about later. Her design is decent; I like the sultry hair pulling in her portrait, it gives off a lot of personality. I don’t have much to say, I forgot she existed before the end of last chapter and have no clue what her personality will be.

Birthright Chapter 8: Fierce Winds

Team Corrin travels up the Eternal Staircase, a massive subterranean tunnel that leads to the Wind Tribe Village. Kaze notices that the group is being followed and a group of faceless pop out. Kaze and Corrin slaughter them with ease. Unfortunately, after the battle, the faceless turn into Wind Tribe civilians. Iago appears and explains that he disguised civilians as monsters using magic. He learned it from his favorite movie villain, the Joker from the Dark Knight, who Iago thinks is actually the good guy.

The gang reaches the Wind Tribe village. Corrin decides to just waltz in because sneaking past would be suspicious. Wind Tribe members attack. Not sure how they know about the whole slaughter thing. Maybe one of the fake faceless got away? Whatever.

Our three princesses apologize to the tribe members and they lead us to their chief, Fuga. Then the battle immediately begins. Guess negotiations didn’t go well.

Also here for some reason is Hinoka and her two retainers, Setsuna and Azama, both of whom are absolute morons. But, like, in a good way. Setsuna falls in quicksand, doesn’t care, and Azama immediately declares her dead. The fact that Hinoka has to basically babysit her two idiot bodyguards is amusing.

Setsuna

An Archer that works as Hinoka’s bodyguard. Her personal skill, Optimistic, makes her recover more when healed by a staff. A thing they do a lot in recent Fire Emblem games is to have characters that are based around specific gags or tropes. These are hit or miss, but Setsuna’s gag of constantly endangering herself and just not giving a shit sounds funny. The faced half-covered by hair initially makes her seem cool, but when paired with the dopey face and her personality it makes her look completely distracted. I like Setsuna, from what I’ve seen.

Azama

A monk who seems to be ridiculously optimistic and laid back. His personal skill, Divine Retribution, hurts opponents who attack him when he’s unarmed, which is a really cool idea. Azama doesn’t seem to be quite as funny as Setsuna, but still seems entertaining. I have mixed feelings on his design. I can’t tell if I like the closed eyes or not. The puffballs and wild hair are dumb though.

It’s worth noting that, because we move first, Corrin’s army attacks without provocation. Remember, they can’t see the red labels on enemies.

This map takes place in a desert. We can use the Dragon Veins to make it not a desert, which is good, because Fire Emblem deserts suck. Halfway through the battle, we finally talk to Fuga. He explains that we must earn the right to explain by killing all of his men. Bit of a dick move, chief.

We beat Fuga fairly easily. This chapter was fine, but just fine. Not bad, just unremarkable. Fuga explains that he was friends with Sumeragi and knows a lot about Yato. Apparently, us killing all of his men was a test to make us stronger so we can unlock Yato’s true power. Apparently, Yato can link something called the Sealed Flames and destroy the world. Neat.

Fuga accepts our explanation of the civilian murders. Which makes sense, it was kinda dumb. Actually, wait. Why did that have to be a plot point? Couldn’t this chapter just have been Fuga testing us?

Before we leave, Corrin and Azura discuss that there may be more blades like Yato out there. They don’t ask Fuga, because reasons. Also Fuga gives us his son. Neat.

#fire emblem fates #fe fates #fe 14 #corrin fe #sakura fe #corrin x sakura #setsuna fe #azama fe #subaki fe #sakura x subaki #subaki x hana #hana fe #silas f #saizo fe #orochi fe #fuga fe

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queenofnohr · 4 years

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Shi Huangdi Interlude - The Arbiter’s Melancholy

This........ may have been the hardest Interlude I’ve translated to date just because of all the techno-fantasy magic terms + Lostbelt lore + Emperor’s speech patterns, haha.

There aren’t too many variable dialogue options, but it may be easier to read on Dreamwidth.

This was a commission for none other than @tainbocuailnge c:

The shape destruction takes is not uniform. That was the hypothesis We arrived at. Just as there is no fixed standard to how a dream ends…… When the Tree of Emptiness is pruned, what form will the vanishing of that degenerated fiction — that Lostbelt — take? The particulars of each world will surely differ. Will its end come suddenly, like a candle being blown out……? Or will heaven rend and the earth be torn asunder as the agonizing cries of hell ring out…...?

In Our Eternal Qin Dynasty, what first forcibly opened Our eyes was the lack of observant people. Forests, wilderness, unexplored mountains and rivers — one by one, they became naught but pockets of nothingness. An implacable darkness covered them, and they were lost to the world.

Yet the people did not notice. They were people satisfied with living peaceful lives within their homes, with no interest in the outside world. Another uneventful day passes, and they go to sleep again.

Eventually, in the middle of the night while everyone slept, a certain village was swallowed whole by that nothingness. No one noticed anything out of the ordinary, and while they slept, they returned to nothingness. In that way, one-by-one, the radius of the peoples’ existence disappeared.

Those who were able to awake to another peaceful morning had forgotten that there was a neighboring village in the first place. They had no questions at all about it. That was the destiny of the people. That was the way they were raised. We are the only ones who ascertain all with Our own eyes. Only We, who stand upon this earth as an ordinary person, know the end of this pruned dream. The one watching the crumbling world is the sole person who watches over everything.

How fortunate— Indeed, rather than postponement, the best thing one can hope for is the end. We estimate the time We have left. It will be around three months until Our Qin Dynasty disappears completely—

Zhenren Shi Huangdi: How does progress look, Our Hun*? Steel Shi Huangdi: Unsatisfactory, Our Po. Zhenren Shi Huangdi: Hmm, We wonder if it’s possible to mobilize all computing resources to Epang Palace…... Steel Shi Huangdi: It is unsatisfactory, but it is not stagnant. Although it moves at a snail’s pace, steady progress is being made. Zhenren Shi Huangdi: Hurry. We don’t have much time left. Steel Shi Huangdi: It is unnecessary to tell Us. After all, the authority of analysis is the responsibility of Our Hun. Zhenren Shi Huangdi: Yes, and Our Po is at a loss for what to do. We are vexedー Steel Shi Huangdi: No, Our Po. There are some things that can only be done by one who has attained human form. Soothe Our people as much as possible. Be with them until the last moment, as one who stands on their same earth. Zhenren Shi Huangdi: That’s right. That, too, is the duty of the emperor. It cannot be neglected. However, sooner or later everything will return to nothingness…… Steel Shi Huangdi: Indeed. Our Po has received the next most important role. With a body that is a perfect imitation of those ethereal beings, We should be able to once again step into that enchanted land. That Mystery, at the end of it there must be a path to pan-human history. Zhenren Shi Huangdi: It won’t be a long journey. The preparations should be enough, but…… Steel Shi Huangdi: Then, We do what We can, and the rest is in fate’s hands. Because We are the sole being under heaven, in all creation……

[in Chaldea]

Shi Huangdi: There’s a Singularity! Reyshift is a go-go! Fou: Foufou!? Mash: Um, Shi Huangdi......? You just said there was a Singularity, but...... is that true? Da Vinci: Oh, Guda? Sorry to interrupt your break. A very excited Servant might pay you a visit soon……

> They’re raving all about it as we speak

Da Vinci: Oh, I see. Nonetheless…… Please come to the control room for a detailed briefing on the situation.

> Roger that > I’ll be there shortly

[in the control room]

Shi Huangdi: It’s Xianyang, right? 210 years before the founding of Christianity, right? That should be around the time We reached a dead end in Our quest for immortality, no? Indeed, We shall declare it. It was Our complete failure. Da Vinci: That’s some declaration…… Shi Huangdi: Well, let’s see, the Us of that time was so impatient, such a quest made Us completely lose Our mind. The reason for extending Our life, what the meaning of having a country and emperor were — We lost sight of it completely. Sion: ……*sigh*. It’s true that it’s hard to think of that behavior coming from Your Majesty, who is wise— and furthermore, an ultra-high powered supercomputer. You know that you’re the one causing the Singularity, but you’re talking as if it’s someone else. Shi Huangdi: But you know, We will be 2276 this year. Yet when We died, We hadn’t even reached 50. For comparison, for you all it would be like watching a toddler. They have to grab onto something else to stand on their own two feet, and fall all over themselves. In that case, isn’t criticism much too petty? Da Vinci: I suppose so, but. Setting that very emperor-like fallacious argument for a second— what’s with you? You’re way more pushy than usual. Was Your Majesty always this type of character? Fou: Fou. Fofou. (Translation: More-or-less) Shi Huangdi: Well, it’s a dark past We don’t really want to recall. Let Us hide Our embarrassment, at least a little. Da Vinci: ……Ooookay. I don’t really think this counts as “hiding your embarrassment,” but whatever…… In any case, the one who will accompany you on your Reyshift to the Singularity will also be our strategy officer taking responsibility for operations therein…… Right now, I’m currently covering Goredolf’s position so, Guda, your judgment on this matter is of utmost importance. Do you really intend to bring Emperor “How Interesting!” along with you on this expedition?

> Well, with our destination being what it is…... > Aren’t they qualified?

Shi Huangdi: Indeed! An appropriate judgment. Just what We expected from the protector of humanity! Sion: ………… If that’s what Guda concludes, I have no objections. However, I’ll also be accompanying you this time as Novum Chaldea’s Weapons Development Advisor. Mash: Huh? You’re going to Reyshift, Sion? Sion: Don’t worry about my aptitude. There haven’t been and won’t be any problems, because I deal with them all flawlessly. Shi Huangdi: Oh ho? You are aware that as We are Guda’s Servant, We shall only concern Ourselves with Guda’s safety, yes? Sion: That doesn’t matter. I have no desire to stand on the frontlines, and I’m more than equipped to see to my personal self-defense. You’ll come to see that both martial arts and marksmanship are my forte. After all, I am a genius of the Atlas Institute. Shi Huangdi: Hm. So long as you prove not to be a burden, We have no objections. I’m sure Guda is of the same mind?

> It’ll be encouraging to have you along. > Welcome aboard!

Da Vinci: Well, it’s fine if Sion comes along with you, but, well…… Sion, didn’t you say you didn’t want to do Spiriton Hacking? Sion: That was then, and it’s only sometimes in some cases! This is a rare opportunity, so it’d be a waste not to experiment! Da Vinci: ……*sigh*. It’s fine. Well then, head into the Coffins, everyone. The Singularity coordinates have been inputted, and I’ve made the necessary adjustments to accurately monitor your proof of existence. Sion: Please be scrupulous in your surveillance, Da Vinci. Don’t overlook even the slightest anomaly. Da Vinci: Yes, leave it to me. I’ll use the utmost care.

[we Reyshift]

Mash: Reyshift successful. However, this is…… Shi Huangdi: Oh my, how cruel this is. Our beautiful Xianyang, reduced to this sad sight, feels like some terrible joke. And what is this miasma? Mash: It's a magical energy thick with curses that permeates the air. If it’s this bad with the protection of a Mystic Code, an ordinary person in this environment would…… Shi Huangdi: Indeed. It is unlikely that any of the residents have survived. Even if they were alive, they would surely no longer be Our subjects, but something else entirely. Sion: Even if this is a Singularity, what the hell could’ve happened to result in such a dramatic change? Just what was the Shi Huangdi of this point in time planning? Shi Huangdi: Well, corrupted as We were, We expect that We underrated the degree of destruction We would invite. Speaking of Ourselves at that time, Our disposition was that if something were to be done, it should be done to its completion. Nevertheless, it seems We persisted in such folly…… Of all things, We devoured Xianyang completely. Sion: Devoured it……!? You mean you used that complete monopolization of resources arbitrarily!? I know your quest for immortality escalated, but did you really start a biohazard level calamity? Shi Huangdi: Um, well, it’s embarrassing to say, but We cannot assert that it would be completely outside the realm of possibility for Us. One would simply have to scrape together banned techniques from every corner of China, as well as every conceivable foreign system…… Thinking back on it now, that’s probably why Xu Fu ran off.

> Xu Fu?

Mash: Xu Fu was a court sorcerer who served at the time of the Qin Dynasty. It’s said that Shi Huangdi ordered him to search for immortality, and he traveled to the east with many researchers, but…… Sion: He never reached that enchanted land, nor did he return to Qin. According to one theory, he reached Japan and became a king there.

> So mercury was only the beginning……

Shi Huangdi: It got to the point that We tried invoking the homeopathic magic of Western Europe. No, it was because of its eternal, everlasting beauty— but thinking about it now, using it as medicine was truly the height of recklessness…… But We would like to tell Ourselves to drink a barrel of mercury if relying on curses is the alternative. This is truly pathetic!

[Mash looks surprised then puts her headset on]

Mash: ! Master, I’ve received a warning from Sheba! Hostiles incoming! Shi Huangdi: Mm, indeed, now is not the time to be in low spirits over a weak-mindedness that both is and is not Our own. On Our honor as a Servant, We shall serve as your guard. And here, to this fallen city, We shall demonstrate the law as the true emperor!

[fight]

(Node 2)

Shi Huangdi: …… Sion: ……That was difficult, wasn’t it. Even as you are now, at the apex of mankind, does your heart still ache? Shi Huangdi: Our spilt blood is not enough for the end of Our people. Moreover, the root of all this evil is the person We used to be. Mash: ……This is a Singularity. It was a different Shi Huangdi that made the wrong decision…… Shi Huangdi: No, because that person is still Us. We know where the end of that person’s delusional convictions lie. After all, it was none other than Us that had a glimpse into that regime. Guda, this is where the root of Our anxiety toward the human species stems from. No matter how noble the ideals you laud are, fate is much too cruel. The fear of ruination and making mistakes can all too easily mislead even those who seek to venture down the correct path. It is impossible for ten out of ten people to reach enlightenment even after a lifetime of devoting themselves to their studies. Yet if even one person falls to heresy, the remaining nine will be consumed.

> Do you think it’s impossible for mankind to improve?

Shi Huangdi: A person cannot resist fear and despair. So long as they are unable to surpass death and become Zhenren, they will be inadequate. And so, the duty of traversing the wasteland of humanity should be borne by one person alone…… In the end, even We, who were enthused by the prospect, met the bitterness of a pruned Lostbelt. Now, the right to challenge that cruel future lies in the hands of those that would inhabit that future. But do not forget. Even if you acknowledge the potential of mankind, an evil exists in this world. The same evil that you see here, that led Us to expose the depths of Our depravity— and it will appear time and time again.

> I know, but > We have no choice but to improve

Shi Huangdi: Heh. No matter how We might mean to intimidate you, a glance at your admirable and precious gaze and the words die on Our tongue. Well, shall We leave this trivial matter be? Then let us go to exterminate the source of these delusional convictions.

[inside Epang Palace]

Vengeful Spirit: You…… Shi Huangdi: Ah, We are truly painful to look at. Indeed, We had steeled Ourselves, but…… Looking at Ourselves again is so repulsive it nauseates Us. Vengeful Spirit: Oho…… That form…… We never thought We would reach it. Shi Huangdi: We were truly foolish in Our youth. It isn’t as though We do not understand the extent of that anguish, but such a downfall is unpardonable. Spreading enough curses about to hail a miasma— shouldn’t that have been beyond consideration? The capital was the price paid in exchange for prolonging Our life! Vengeful Spirit: *sigh*…… If the law of death is imposed upon the whole world, then it can also be considered a cure. Under the care of this first emperor, Shi Huangdi, China has finally realized eternal rest. Sion: (“This” first emperor...?) Hold on a second. Stop talking. I have my own personal opinions on using inhumane acts to achieve immortality, but doing it for political measures is outrageous. Even without being soft, there’s no reason to go to these excessive lengths. Just look here. After all, this is a successful emperor that freed themselves completely and achieved what you could not by taking a different path. Shi Huangdi: Ah, no, this isn’t the type of opponent you should instigate…… Vengeful Spirit: And so they are a saint? That’s the height of absurdity! That one is the fool who would reap the future of the world in exchange for their own future! Sion: ー! Shi Huangdi: ……Oho? This is the first time one has seen into Our origin. Well, We suppose that even corrupted, you were still Us. Then, your verdict is that the apex of unsightliness, this city of death, is preferable to the history We had woven? Vengeful Spirit: Aye. We, the Qin Dynasty, will continue beyond death. We shall reign until its destruction! This will become true eternity! Shi Huangdi: We have decided! Both pity and consideration are wasted on you. You are no longer a heavenly being nor emperor. All that remains is simply carrion. That throne is not a place for the dead to dream. We shall return you to your rightful place thusly. After all, isn’t that what this mausoleum was built for?

[fight]

Vengeful Spirit: Guh…… Why do you stop Us? Why do you prune Us? This time, for sure, the Eternal Qin…… Our peaceful reign…… Even though We could finally see the signs…... Shi Huangdi: Coming from Us, whose life can no longer cross into the realm of death, any advice is useless. Even so, let’s see. Do not be angry. Do not lament. For even if you alone will not bear its burden, humanity itself may somehow manage yet, surprising though it may be. Vengeful Spirit: What foolishness…… There is only Us…… Only the emperor, the Alpha and Omega…… is able to carry the fate of this world…...

[it disappears]

Shi Huangdi: Ah, how tiresome. That was like coming across someone doing a dramatic reading of Our entire dark history. Well, We did what We had to do. Let us return quickly. We cannot stand the air in this corrupted palace for another minuteー no, not even another second. Sion: You did what had to be done…… I wonder. Is that all you have to say about this? Shi Huangdi: More or less? Were you expecting something else? Sion: ……No. You were able to resolve this Singularity pretty reasonably. Good work as a Servant. You too, Guda, good job. Then, let’s head back.

[we Reyshift back]

Da Vinci: Yes, yes, bang up job this time, too. Well done! Now then, go take a shower and rest up. You can report back later. Mash: Huh? This isn’t standard protocol…… Da Vinci: Well, some stuff came up. I gotta adjust the machinery and such, ya’know. Oh, Shi Huangdi, could you stay a little longer? There’s something I’d like your help with. Shi Huangdi: Hm?

> Well then, I’ll take you up on your offer > Please excuse me

[we go; scene is still the control room]

Holmes: With this I trust all the details of the case have been disclosed? Then, all that remains is to solve the mystery. Shi Huangdi: Oh my, out with Guda and in with the detective makes for a truly detestable atmosphere. Ah, that reminds me, We do believe We had promised to have some dim sum with Shuwen. What an unfortunate time to forget. Then, if you’ll excuse me…… Holmes: Stop with the transparent lies. Why don’t we start talking. Da Vinci: We’ve already observed numerous Singularities, both large and small. Combining that with the data received from my previous incarnation, I have enough samples to be able to classify everything depending on trends observed. Therefore, I can draw this conclusion. This Singularity was not a natural occurrence. The pattern corresponds to the construction being from that of intentional outside interference. Shi Huangdi: And you suspect We are responsible? No, you overestimate Us completely. Certainly, Our form is that which is expected of Us as a Servant in this world, though as a supreme ultimate being it is the implementation of a modern human frame. Looking at it from another perspective, We are nothing more than an individual with nothing to Us, supreme only in name. We could not possibly reach the authority We once had in Our sacred mechanical body that once controlled all the world. Da Vinci: Thank you for being so eloquent, and for making your excuse as long-winded as physically possible. It’s true that as a Servant, Guda has the means to control you with a Command Spell. However…… it’s a different story if you were to regain the power you once had in your Lostbelt. Shi Huangdi: Well, We intended for you to forget your vigilance in your awe. Is it even possible that the feat of creating Singularities would be available as We are now? Actually, in the first place, it was an artificial Singularity. Is that possible? Da Vinci: In theory. However, it would require a Reyshift or some other equivalent means. Shi Huangdi: In other words, the machinery here has been used fraudulently by someone? Sion: Even if you want to ridicule it as a security system riddled with holes, I’ll reject that notion. As a hacker myself, I won’t say anything about a “perfect security system,” but if we’re talking about Novum Chaldea’s equipment, I can affirm that it’s impossible to operate the system without leaving a trace. Holmes: Rather, we should consider the possibility of someone other than ourselves implementing a Reyshift system. Shi Huangdi: If we’re talking about “possibilities,” then they’re endless. Especially considering that it might be a common technology in the future? Holmes: Finding the suspect ー in this case, the one who implemented the system ー is possible, even without jumping to such extreme leaps in logic. One would simply have to acquire the Animusphere’s theories, the Laplace software, and have a means of computing comparable to Trismegistus…… if we consider who can satisfy all those requirements, the conclusion is nearly at hand. Da Vinci: Well, this was borne from my own carelessness, but Shadow Border, at the time of entering the Chinese Lostbelt, contained backup data from Antarctic Chaldea that had been evacuated just in case. I never imagined that the entire vehicle might be captured and analyzed. Sion: Furthermore, your other form on-site was that of a supercomputer that ruled over and controlled the planet. It really is a shame I wasn’t able to see it directly. And there was no chance to know the details of what happened afterward. Holmes: Indeed. After we left, the Chinese Lostbelt as an externally observable object disappeared promptly. However, it is impossible to know how much time passed within the Lostbelt itself. If there wasn’t a sudden collapse, but instead a grace period in which the data obtained from Shadow Border could be fully analyzed…… Sion: And, the most damning evidence was a statement made by the other emperor who was out of control in that Singularity. You were able to detect the pruning event with a single shot. At the time, it was a skillful deception, but logically it was impossible. The only possibility is…… Holmes: The Shi Huangdi of that Singularity had already been in contact with you once, in regards to the pruning event. The culprit who made the Singularity is not the Shi Huangdi who serves as a Servant of Chaldea, but the Shi Huangdi who was a Lostbelt King…… Am I wrong? Shi Huangdi: Hmmm…… However, after the pruning event is confirmed, what use would it be to Reyshift? A Reyshift cannot grant the falsification of history. At best, it would produce a Singularityー nothing more than a stagnation in space-time. Da Vinci: You’re right. It’s impossible to change the outcome once the pruning event occurs. But if you went back to the past, regardless of a pruning event, there was certainly a time when you rode the waves of history, adding onto itー “compiling” it. Holmes: That answer seems to be why you stuck to Xianyang as the Singularity. The Lostbelt Shi Huangdi established multiple Singularities in stages, trying to see which of them would be detected by Chaldea, right? And that particularity would need an accompliceー a role played by “Servant Shi Huangdi” …… Shi Huangdi: …… Da Vinci: Establishing a Singularity from a Lostbelt, if we assume that there was a Singularity Response that could be observed from pan-human history, it would be from their shared past, and then that point becomes the crossroads between pruning and compiling history. And from there, establishing a Singularity in the past can become a means of interfering with pan-human history. Just like the trap devised by the King of Mages, Goetia. Sion: I thought they might have intended to do something during the last Reyshift, so I accompanied them, but there was nothing at all out of place. Since that was the case, it was reasonable to believe that there was another prime culprit. Of the traps set, which had been set to target this side of human history……? My aim was to verify that. Or, rather, was your purpose for answering Chaldea’s summons for that purpose? Shi Huangdi: Ah, good grief. Humanity so used to conflict really is lacking in charm. Da Vinci: There’s no way we could have this conversation in front of Guda. We’re doing it this way because we must confirm your true intentions. Shi Huangdi: Well. In the event that you would accuse Us, We would think that Guda, equipped as they are with Command Spells, would be essential to have present. It’s quite a sweet sentiment especially compared to the sharpness of your deductions. We have misgivings about the future of pan-human history. In any case, We have warned Guda time and time again. That should the mankind of pan-human history prove themselves to be unpardonably hideous beings, We will revive the Qin once more. Da Vinci: Then…… Shi Huangdi: Oops, wait three seconds before you get truly angry. We do not mean to say We will implement that plan immediately. We have no intention of hindering Guda’s efforts. We came to your pan-human history to see with Our own eyes your struggle, and should you fall into trouble, We shall spare no effort to lend Our assistance. After all, We have already abdicated Our throne in favor of a virtuous successor. Holmes: ……Then why the shady behavior? Shi Huangdi: It is Our belief that hope for the future will be pioneered by Guda, and you allー the “people.” However, faith and trust are two different things. After all, We are a politician. We do not engage in gambling. Should Guda shrink from their duty as a human inhabiting this world at the unprecedented crisis known as the bleaching of humanity …… At that time, We will become responsible for humanity again. “A humanity according to esteemed people.” Da Vinci: ………… Sion: ーRejected. That’s a contract built on the premise of defeat. Is there any other name for that than betrayal? Shi Huangdi: There certainly exist Heroic Spirits that dedicate themselves to Guda under pretense of friendship and conviction. However. Would it be okay if a world that could not be saved by “goodness” met its complete ruinationー We are different than those that cannot overlook disarray. Our bond with Guda is righteous. But to defeat the “Alien God” is an even greater justice. Should there come a time wherein these two ideals need be weighed against each other…… We shall choose the heavier one, without hesitation. Such is the duty of an arbiter. Sion: …… In short, you assert that this is a means to resist the bleaching of humanity? Shi Huangdi: It’s insurance, so to speak. We are a heavenly being that rules over the world of man. An invasion of earth by something inhuman is something We cannot forgive. In the event of Guda’s complete victory over the “Alien God,” We shall forget Our precautions as a needless anxiety. With the dismissal of all Singularities, We shall celebrate this victory of the people. Of course, that was the plan all along. Sion: Good grief. All this talk is hard to believe after seeing another Shi Huangdi who fell into the depths of their delusions at the end of their ambition just a little while ago. (Agh, I really can’t recognize this person as Their Majesty The Emperor) Shi Huangdi: That is why We keep repeating it. Here We are, living, 2200 years after Our death. Our viewpoint has since changed, and Our worldly desires have perished. You shouldn’t look down on the mental state sainthood achieves. ……In addition. Considering whether or not this insurance can go as smoothly as We had originally thought, We now possess a smidgeon of anxiety. In the first place, the arrangements for Reyshifting are in no way…… There is another matter that is displeasing. There is a faint smell of heresy. Da Vinci: Heresy? Like what? Shi Huangdi: From the beginning, you all easily saw through Us…… There is no reason why the other Crypters could not do the same thing. Holmes: I’ll tell you in advance that your caution is worthy of recognition. Since it doesn’t seem that you’ll resort to acting rashly. Shi Huangdi: If Guda and everyone else follows Our plan, everything will advance with a rock-solid formation~. Da Vinci: Ahaha. It’s impossible, so just give up. No matter what the reason is, strategies hinging on sacrifices won’t be approved. That goes doubly in Novum Chaldea. Otherwise such a victory would have no meaning. Holmes: ーHm. Although I do agree with some of Your Majesty’s thoughts…… As a matter of practicality, first and foremost must come the felling of the remaining Trees of Emptiness. So long as we have the invader, the “Alien God,” as a common enemy, I do hope our alliance will be maintained. Da Vinci: Yes, it’s safe to say that they bear no malicious intent toward Guda. However, Shi Huangdiー do not forget that we are keeping careful watch over your movements. If you do anything to make that child sad, I won’t forgive you, okay? Shi Huangdi: Then We shall say this. Heroic Spirits. That person is likely the next generation of mankind. We will surely be victorious, no matter what the cost. We shall not need to be roused again.

[in My Room]

Fou: Fou? Fooou! Mash: A- Are you okay, senpai? Did you get sick?

> No, I’m fine > For some strange reason, I got chills……

Mash: ……Okay. You don’t seem to be running a fever. Perhaps someone was talking about you, senpai.

> I hope they’re not saying anything weird…… > Hmm, it’s like I’m carrying a weight on my shoulders……

T/N:

* EDIT: Shoutout to an anon for being the real MVP and alerting me that, aside from being a compound in Japanese, the kanji Shi Huangdi uses here are in reference to soul-types in Chinese philosophy. The concepts refer to two different souls that exist within the self, representing yin and yang, but I... don’t really want to turn this into a lesson, nor am I an expert (obviously. since I didn’t catch it while translating) so I’d recommend looking into it if curious/wanting to know more about our emperor!

#my translations #fgo #fgo translations #fgo interlude #long post

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phoenotopia · 4 years

Text

2020 March Update

Happy New Year! Well, I guess it's a bit late for that...

Much of what transpired in the past few months will fall under polish and bug-fixing. Will and I have a mutual friend who got married, so I had the occasion to visit Will to attend the wedding as well as have Will playtest the game in its most complete form yet. He logged 24 hours of playtime and just reached the entrance of the final dungeon. Then we had to call in for the night since it was 5 AM, and I had a flight to catch in the morning.

His completion rate where we stopped was 42% of Heart Pieces, 33% of Energy Gems, and 44% of Moonstones. So... I think we have a pretty lengthy game!

This will take a while to playtest & polish... Will's daytime profession is QA Engineer so he's pretty great at catching bugs. From his playtest, we jotted down 200+ items to fix/adjust. Some as small as a simple misspelling, and some more significant (like Gail being unable to jump when standing at the edge of a steep slope). I'm about half-way through fixing that list...

(Will’s living room where much playtesting was done)

Here are some other things we've accomplished in the past few months. A lot of it falls under polish and bug-fixing, which won't sound outwardly impressive, so I'll dive in a bit under the hood.

-------------------------- Item Balancing --------------------------

There are over 200 items in the game. Of which, 90+ are healing items. While much of their flavor text was already written, their stats weren't yet finally decided. So a large effort was spent to balance them as well as possible. Initially, I balanced items by observation (ex: "The player is relying on this item a lot, so I will nerf it...") Now, I've moved to a more systematic way of doing things. I made an equation that takes in all of an item's parameters, and spits out a score. The higher an item heals, the higher the score. The longer an item takes to consume, the lower the score. And so forth.

As usual, I used google spreadsheets, since they support equations. I could tweak the values of a healing item, and immediately see how its final score was affected. I also made use of automatic color formatting, so a field becomes highlighted red, if it's particularly bad, or green, if it's particularly good. Of course, the sheet is just a guideline. The aim wasn't to make all items have the same final score, but that they made sense for what they were and when you could get them. Late-game items tend to have higher overall scores versus early-game items. Some items, like doggy biscuits, have notoriously low scores across the board - as a joke!

-------------------------- Cooking Systems --------------------------

Another thing that had to be done with the healing items was finally determine their cooking sequences. 38 healing items could be cooked and will transform into something else. The way I specified that an item could be cooked was to add a a little snippet to an item's "meta data". An example would look something like, "COOK,57,62,ABXY,10,1.5,1".

In order, this specified the item_ID that would result on success (57), the item_ID that would result on failure (62), the button sequence (ABXY), the time you had to complete the sequence (10 seconds), how quickly the cursor should move (1.5x speed), and if the item multiplied on success (1). The system appears simple enough - but it was actually extremely inefficient!

For one, this system didn't allow random button sequences - all "berry fruits", when cooked would have the same button prompts and in the same order every time (ABXY). Initially, I thought having set button sequences would be a feature, but in practice, it was less fun.

Two, this system wasn't human-readable at all. I'd see a sequence of numbers, forget what they were, and have to look them up over and over.

But the biggest problem was that you couldn't evaluate an item's cooking difficulty from these numbers without manual testing. At 1.5 cursor speed, how many times does the cursor pass the center panel in 10 seconds? Maybe that's 15 times... for a 4 button sequence, the player has 11 opportunities to miss - that's too wide a berth for failure. The system also had variable penalties - if you misspressed a button prompt you loss time on the cooking meter. If you didn't press anything, you missed the opportunity, but not the time - but the clock was still ticking, so you did lose time, just not as much. In the end, the difficulty of cooking each item was all over the place. It was also possible to create "unwinnable" scenarios if I made the button sequence too long, the time too short, or the cursor speed too slow. Testing each item manually to ensure doability was too tedious and unreliable - it was a mess!

Which is why, the underlying cooking system was revamped. The new meta data looks like : "COOK,57,62,seq_length,5,spd,1.5,ease_add,2". This is a lot more readable. Beyond the first 3 entries, the arguments could be specified in any order. And their meanings were easy to understand.

"seq_length,5" means a random button sequence of 5 will be generated (no need for me to personally generate it)

"spd,1.5" means the cursor moves at 1.5x speed. I could also leave this field out to get a default value of 1x cursor speed.

"ease_add,2" - the biggest improvement to the system is how we now approach difficulty. We streamlined a miss-press and a missed opportunity as the same level of "mistake", and difficulty is framed as, "how many mistakes is the player allowed to make and still have a successful result?" By default, the player is afforded the ability to make 2 mistakes, and "ease_add,2" bumps the number of allowable mistakes to 4. We then automatically calculate how much "time" the player should have to cook something based on its cursor speed, how long the button sequence is, and how many mistakes the player is allowed to make. This was a more sensible and efficient system that let me knock out all 38 healing item cook sequences in one sitting!

-------------------------- Badges Nearly Done --------------------------

As you may recall from the last update, I was working on implementing the badges.

Thinking up the badge and having its graphic drawn is just the first half. Underneath, the code also needs to be made to track all the relevant player stats - how many times the player fished, ate, got money, used a certain move, etc. Some badges require extra guards, because they can be spoofed. For instance, the "Treasure Hunter" badge is obtained when the player has collected XXXX RIN through the course of your journey. However, there is something like a "gold exchange" in the game, where you could circularly trade gold and RIN to boost this number artificially. It's important to guard against cases like those.

So far, 30 of 33 badges are implemented. The last three have to do with late-game things that have inter-dependencies that we're still figuring out. The Speed running badge for instance is still dependent on two things. One, I need to speed run the game a few times to see how fast it's possible to beat the game and decide finally what's a reasonable time-limit. Two, there's actually a time-keeping bug which can inflate the game time if the system is left in sleep mode. I don't expect either things will be too hard to figure out - just gotta find the time for it.

-------------------------- Script Extra Polished --------------------------

We continued to polish the script, which I thought was basically done before. We added some extra NPCs here and there, and fleshed out the world with lore text where it seemed appropriate. In the end, the game's script ballooned to over 100,000 words! Hah... It's definitely DONE now however!

Some interesting things I noted as I was polishing old text - there were quite a few instances where Gail talks. I began the game's development with the idea that Gail should definitely talk since I wanted her to be a more active participant in what she chose to do. But I discovered later that if Gail talks, but only talked a little, she comes off as a very reticent person. There's no middle lane here - you're either all in or all out.

If Gail was a silent protagonist, she still talked symbolically. She is understood to be talking based on how people react to her - kinda like Link. So that's the direction I went with in the end (again). When Gail has occasion to talk, it comes in the form of a player dialogue choice. She also has an inner voice when she needs to remind the player to do something.

Another reason I went with this direction, is for brevity. Take this exchange for instance: QUEST GIVER : Can you help me find this super rare ingredient? GAIL : Maybe. I can't make any promises...

If Gail is silent, I can reduce those 2 lines to 1. QUEST GIVER : Can you help me find this super rare ingredient? GAIL : ...

-------------------------- Business Taxes --------------------------

Not too exciting, but new year means I gotta do taxes for the business. They're a lot more complicated than personal taxes, and more expensive! Since the game hasn't sold anything, you would think there'd be nothing to file. Hah! If only... The business is there so we can act as a legal entity and record expenses for when we do start selling. I really want to focus on making games, but there’s a small percentage of it that is sometimes boring and dreadful (-_-) ... still it needs to be done.

------------- Why no Public Beta Testing? -------------

As you may have noticed, I haven't put out any public calls for testing help despite being at that stage. Some have offered to help, which I appreciate! But sadly, I cannot accept. Here's the story for that.

Two and a half years ago, I got my hands on a console dev kit - that's very exciting, so I hurriedly took the steps to convert my dev station to be console-capable. After about two weeks, I had the console version working and integrated into my workflow, so all appeared good...

4 Months later, an artist needed an updated PC build to test some new art assets, so I went to build a new PC version. We use Unity, so generally you just need to click your desired build target, and hit "build". However, I now discovered that by attaching the console "hooks" into my work environment, I could no longer build to PC... It was possible, from my end, to test the game from the dev station in dev mode, which was why it went undiscovered for so long.

I did try to excise the hooks, but proved unsuccessful after a day of work. I decided to take this as an opportunity to focus exclusively on the console version first, which afforded me some niceties. Knowing that there's a standardized control scheme meant I could make full use of the control stick for the fishing mini-game. I also didn't need to create a rebindable keys menu - which is a MUST for PC versions... Most importantly, it lets me focus on making the one version as good as possible before moving onto the next. I have NO idea how those other guys release on all platforms at once...

Chalk it up to inexperience. In my defense, this will be my first commercial release, so bear with me. Don't worry, I still plan to make the PC version! It's a bit unconventional, but we're just going to go in the reverse direction of the usual. Console first, then PC, then other consoles. Wherever it makes financial sense, there we will be. (Sorry Ouya!)

Back to the original question - that's why I haven't sent out any public calls for playtesting. Current playable builds of the game are locked to my console dev kit. So actual playtesting unfolds in a very closed setting. Like what I did with Will, I literally sit behind the playtester, breathe down their neck, and watch them play, taking notes all the while.

But since I'm observing the player directly, even just one playthrough nets me a TON of bugs and adjustment tasks. So it evens out I think.

-------------------------- Trailers, Release Dates, etc. --------------------------

Alright, get your frowns ready...

We finished two trailers, and they're raring to go. BUT! We can't show them yet... We're sort of at an awkward spot where we're waiting on some conversational threads to conclude. Say we win a slot in a show - that'd be a HUGE plus for us - but that may also be contingent on us having NOT shown anything substantial yet. The game in its unrevealed state is a negotiating chip. So we're trying to leverage that... and you can only do the reveal once...

We also want to have some "actionable" items in the trailer - a launch date you could mark on your calendar, a wishlist, a website you can visit, etc. So since those things aren't entirely lined up yet, we can't let the trailers rip just yet...

Right now, I can only say we're *aiming* for a late Q2/early Q3 launch. But I can't commit to anything concrete yet. As soon as we know, we'll happily sing it from the rooftops. I hope I can update this blog sooner with good news, but if things move slowly again, I'll send out the next "we're alive" update 2 months from now (end of April).

I know it's frustrating to have nothing major after so long still, so I captured some gameplay footage... May it sate your hungers!

-------------------------- Footage 1 : Fishing --------------------------

You've seen pictures of the fishing, but never video of it in action. Well, here it is!

youtube

(And right after I uploaded the video, I noticed there actually was a video of fishing before. D’oh)

The idea is simple. First, get the lure in front of a fish, and assuming the fish isn't scared, it will soon bite. Then begins a fight sequence, where your energy meter is pitted against the fish's energy meter. Whoever's energy outlasts the other's wins.

The fish's resistance is represented by a red moving circular subsection. You fight the fish by pushing the control stick and keeping it on the subsection, which will dart around and try to escape you. Bigger and tougher variants of fish will do a "shake" which will reverse the wheel. When the wheel is reversed, so too are the controls, so it gets extra tricky!

While fishing, your energy meter doesn't recover, so one of the ways you level up your fishing ability is by finding energy gems to increase your max energy. There's another way - but we'll keep that a secret.

-------------- Footage 2 : Kobold Boss Fight --------------

You can actually skip the next section if you'd prefer to be surprised and you find your hunger for info sated. That's how I prefer to consume the games that I know I'm going to get. If you're still hungering for info, and you don't mind the slight spoilers, then feel free to proceed!

The next video shows the new Kobold Boss fight. Let's take a moment to reflect on the old game's visuals and how far it's come...

(we've come a long way since the time of the flash game)

youtube

You'll notice the Kobold boss has a name now - Katash! He's a significant enough character that he's earned it. The second thing you'll notice is that he looks better!

Some people have humorously pointed out that the old boss looks like Wolf O'Donnel from Star Fox. There's a funny story behind that. Basically I asked an artist to draw me a space wolf. And the artist, whom I'm assuming wasn't familiar with Wolf O'Donnel, drew that - all of it - all the animations and everything. The first time I laid eyes on it, it was already done, so it was too late to ask for edits. So I just ran with it.

That was seven years ago. Nowadays, I know to involve myself more in the process. I ask for just the design first, and we don't move forward with animations until we're happy with the design. Life lessons!

By the way, if you like Katash’s personal boss theme, give it a lesson on Will's Sound cloud (LINK)

-------------------------- Fan Arts -------------------------- Lots of fan art came in over the past 3 months!

This one is a pixel animation made by Pimez, and shows Gail singing a Christmas carol in various parts of the game. So cute! Years ago, I too was making little animated gifs for my favorite games, so it really brings me back!

This one was made by cARTographer (twitter link) after a request by Deli_mage, so thank you both. Gail rocking stylish boots with a pose that shows confidence in her batting skills. Very anime - Love it!

Another submission of laptekosz of the Last Song of Earth area. Whereas the last picture depicted the night sky, now the orange trees are lit by a rising sun. Artfully done! Kinda makes me want to eat eggs. I hope you'll like the new Last Song of Earth area just as much :D

A new artist to the scene, Not_Quin, submitted two pictures, one of Gail and one of the Sand Drake re-imagined as a centipede. I'm always a fan of these re-imaginings! I like how it's spiky all over and appears to be wearing a skull mask. The Sand Drake is often pointed out to be too similar to Zelda's Dodongos, so maybe a long slithery body would have indeed served better. Fun fact, long ago, when we were working on Phoenotopia 2 in earnest, we actually had a giant man-eating worm planned - WIP animation depicted below. One day... one day...

Negativus Core made two cool new arts! I'm really impressed by their use of unique perspective! Having characters run towards the screen or reaching close to the screen from afar is tricky since the proportions get all distorted - but not an issue for Negativus Core! Love the blur on Gail to show speed, with 66 in focus - really skillfully done! And the cube. Amazing!

--------------------------

I'm really honored by the huge fan art community. Thank you all!

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muzzleroars · 4 years

Text

An Explanation of Yaldabaoth

So with Christmas Eve coming up, let’s finally talk about Yaldabaoth – who he is, his motivations and goals, and why he suits P5’s story. Basically, I see a lot of confusion (as well as frustration) surrounding his character and his status as the final antagonist, but I totally get that. His writing is messy and his execution left a lot to be desired, despite the idea of him being sound, so I understand why so many players felt he came out of nowhere and screws up the story’s themes. As I am (unfortunately) a big fan of his character, I wanted to put together a post that might help people confused by him see how he fits in, why he was included in the story, and why he makes a satisfying final boss for the plot of P5. And even if you still hate him (totally fair! Everyone’s got different taste and no matter what, his handling is god awful), I just hope I can sort of explain him so he at least makes more sense. This is going to be long, so let’s get started!

First, Yaldabaoth (also known as the Demiurge) is a figure from Gnostic lore, the false god of the material world. He came to be when Sophia, a part of the unknowable, Supreme God, decided to create something separate from the Pleroma (the divine totality) all on her own, without divine permission. So she gave birth to Yaldabaoth; however, he was so monstrous she grew immediately ashamed of her creation, and so provided him with a throne which she then wrapped in a cloud to hide him and make him ignorant in turn. Unable to behold his mother or the divine, he then believed himself to be god. Because of this, Yaldabaoth set about creating the material world, a place he unwittingly based upon the true world of divinity. His creations are animal, like him, but with Sophia’s divine spark as she provides him the power to create. This world is poorly made due to Yaldabaoth’s own incompetence and so that divine spark is trapped in the material, making it something like a spiritual prison. Because of this, however, humanity can ascend while Yaldabaoth cannot, making him envious of human beings. He grows to hate humanity, angered by their imperfection (as he bungles their creation) and the fact that they can ascend while he’s forever trapped in the depths – he turns spiteful, and he is sometimes thought of as the God of the Old Testament as an explanation for his cruelty. Obviously this is incredibly simplified (as I am by no means an expert on Gnosticism), but this is the basis of his character, and I think it really is something the writers played with (including that Satanael, his son, is the one to rebel against him and his ignorance, which is why he is cast from heaven).

A false, artificial god who believes himself to be the Supreme Being, resents humankind, and traps them in a prison...sounds pretty familiar. So what’s different about his character in P5? This Yaldabaoth is the creator of the Metaverse, and he is born from the will of the public – people wished for ease and comfort over free will, the luxury to be free of making decisions and taking responsibility for themselves, which the Holy Grail explains to the PTs as its origin.

However, Yaldabaoth is also just a manifestation of that need - one that gained sentience through the power it was fed, but he is still simply the unconscious desire of the public made material as pointed out by Lavenza (but this explanation scene is where things get rushed, confusing, and glossed over to a frustrating extent)

Yaldabaoth IS society, a tangible stand-in for the true villain of P5 – The people of the public that allow, condone, and even encourage those the PTs have fought. They can defeat criminals, but as long as society remains intact, another will immediately spring up to take their place. Makoto actually states as much when Joker comes to retrieve her from her cell:

Yaldabaoth, therefor, is not just a god thrown into the plot randomly for the biggest bad possible – he is the evils of society incarnate, the people who allow the heinous crimes the PTs had been fighting against, the people that consumed these devastating crimes as entertainment or turned a blind eye to people in need, the people that threw the PTs out the minute any doubt was cast on them. The apathetic, uncaring, callous public as a whole, the ones who constantly ignore or support these criminals until it is no longer convenient (more on that in a minute) – The palace rulers are absolute monsters and yet...we see them all over society because they are a product of that society. And then there’s Futaba, an orphan and mentally ill girl left to rot by society; Sae, a woman trying so hard to achieve her justice and support her sister, constantly stamped down in a society that says a woman can’t, a woman shouldn’t. Society is the true villain and Yaldabaoth is their collective will, manifested so that the final boss battle of the game can just be the PTs taking down the whole of a corrupt society. It’s really the ultimate culmination of their efforts and what they’ve fought against. Because as awful as they all are, the palace rulers are products of a screwed up society (one that reflects our own) – Totally and 100% responsible for their acts, but they were allowed to exist due to this society.

SO if they’re made by society, why are they “escaped convicts” from the Prison of Regression? This is a representation of how society is broken – it creates these criminals, it condones their actions, but once they become too “disruptive”, THEN and ONLY then do they become an issue. Yaldabaoth, to me, is similar to a supercomputer type villain (think AM, a very similar character imo) – the palace rulers are errant, erratic variables that upset the status quo and so must be culled. His dialogue reads very much like a sterile computer program and I think rather than completely outright malicious in his intent, he is performing what he believes to be a necessary function:

Society creates them, encourages them, and then becomes upset when their actions are brought to light and so punishes them (or in Shido’s case at first and so often irl, are let off) so as to quickly restore equilibrium where they can once again ignore all of their ills. Essentially, the palace rulers exhibit that the whole system is sick and doesn’t work, yet people by and large pretend it does because it’s so much easier to say it was one “bad apple” or blame the victims rather than admitting the entire framework of society is completely rotten from the inside out.

What is Yaldabaoth’s goal then? He sets up a game to see if society can be shaken from this apathy or if they no longer wish to lead their own lives. Joker plays the trickster, an antihero the public can root for, the rebellious and glamorous rogue that punishes criminals without help of the establishment. If he wins, this would indicate the public no longer wishes for the status quo, but for a new society that wants to reinvent itself, which is generally well explained...

Goro Akechi is his opposite – He creates chaos and fear in the public to push them back into their comfortable boxes, make them wish for the status quo represented by Shido so they can stop living in fear and return to their lives where they can ignore everything around them. If he wins, this would signal that the public don’t want to fight but instead only want security and familiarity, choosing to turn a blind eye to everything the trickster had accomplished in order to remain safe. (This is made much less clear in the dialogue, because they don’t go over Goro’s role much at all.)

He sets up the entire game on this premise, and the experiment runs...however, it ends unexpectedly. Joker succeeds in taking down Akechi and the PTs expose Shido’s crimes as well as the conspiracy itself, but the public still does not support the Phantom Thieves. They clamor for a disgraced Shido and THIS is why Joker still loses – remember, Yaldabaoth is only a representation of society itself, and society no longer believes in the Phantom Thieves. Yaldabaoth did expect the loss, he knew how far gone humanity was, he just didn’t expect this exact scenario. Of course, the game was rigged – as Lavenza says, Yaldabaoth expects Joker to fulfill the role of the Trickster and so he keeps him close, watching over him in an attempt to stall him out as Lavenza explains.

However, due to the set up of the game, the only win condition is public support. Joker doesn’t earn it and therefor he loses, a decision that is not arbitrary despite possibly appearing so (although it is certainly unfair, pointed out by Morgana).

After offering Joker his deal (that’s a whole OTHER post I could write, y’all know I’m a clown), Yaldabaoth then moves to merge reality with Mementos in order to exert his will over the whole of the public. He wishes to rid them of their free will because, as Yaldabaoth sees it, it seems a vast majority of the public wish to no longer have it anyway and the ones that do merely become anomalies that must be purged from his system before they become too disruptive. Of course, this is an oversimplified way of viewing the issue, but again, he’s sort of like a computer – he will take care of the issue in the most efficient way possible, and that is to rule over society himself. (Again, using the word “administrator” invokes computer terminology and likens him to a mechanical program):

Interestingly, his defeat is brought about by the public backing the Phantom Thieves 100% - an action that triggers Arsene’s evolution into Satanael, Yaldabaoth’s rebellious son. Satanael is of the Fool Arcana, the confidant that represents Joker’s bond to Yaldabaoth himself...to the public, in a sense, and so it’s fitting that this persona is the one to destroy him as he is no longer needed.

So Yaldabaoth is both a character in his own right and representative of the will of the public as well. His writing is confusing, lacking in explanation, and relies heavily on obscure references to his Gnostic roots along with religious symbolism (eg., the floors of Mementos taking their names from the Qliphoth and the palace rulers being representative of the seven deadly sins), and I think that’s why he feels so out of place to so many players. However, the best possible final antagonist for P5’s themes and plot is society itself – the society that shunned them, the society that created the palace rulers, the society that desperately needs to be done away with if we wish for these travesties to come to an end. Because P5 isn’t about individual evil, it’s about institutional evils that create and perpetuate so much individual pain that goes unnoticed and uncared for. Yaldabaoth is the amalgamation and manifestation of that broken system, he gives it a presence and a voice so that the PTs can fight back against it physically. So even though his writing is handled poorly and his execution is lacking, I find him to be a perfect fit and a satisfying conclusion to P5’s themes as an unfair, cruel society turned into a dogmatic god.

This meta really just gives an overview of everything he represents, so I can always go into more detail about any of the points but I hope this explanation helps those that were confused by his inclusion in P5! I’m perfectly happy to elaborate on anything I talked about and clear up any confusion (I didn’t want this post to go on literally FOREVER, so I know some things might require more info), so feel free to ask questions! Other than that have a happy Day of Reckoning and remember to celebrate Bad End Akira’s birthday 🥳🎉

#persona 5 #yaldabaoth #CAN YOU BELIEVE I WROTE THIS???? GOD....#also this is just my read so there's probs other theories out there #but i'm satisfied with this explanation and i think it covers most things #and this is not criticism of ppl that don't get him bc he's so fucking confusing #like it took me forever to understand what his whole deal was it's so frustrating #y'all are valid as hell but i was just hoping i could help out #i'm super nervous posting metas in the tags but i worked hard on this one!!!#so i'm throwing it out there and if u read ALL of that...ur my hero thank u sm #p5 spoilers #persona 5 spoilers #nothing for the new game tho this is all vanilla

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c-is-for-circinate · 5 years

Note

A while ago you mentioned really hating the Persona 4 protagonist as Yu Narukami (from the crossover games and possibly the animation) but liking him as Souji Seta (from the manga, I think?), which is also the name you seem to use most regularly. If you don't mind, could you explain the difference and why you prefer one over the other?

FUCK YES I CAN

(there are Persona people on my dash, that’s so fucking exciting, I have many things to say about these video games and the fandom is small)

Okay so I have lots of thoughts and feelings about the protags from Personas 3, 4, and 5 in general, and about the various versions of them that show up in various media. It has to do with names and gender and how the very specific conventions of being the silent protag of a JRPG translate into creating character, and I could ramble about this forever, so it’s going behind a cut.

Step one: all Persona Wild Card protagonists are genderqueer and neurodivergent. Period.

A persona is, theoretically in game lore, a reflection of your soul–specifically, a reflection of the part of you that you choose to show the world, because it’s strong and powerful and keeps all the weak parts of you safe behind it. In early Persona games, every PC had a couple of different masks they could switch between, and that makes sense, but starting in P3 our party members each get one mask that eventually evolves into another one, and we-the-protag get more than a hundred.

We switch between masks constantly, at the drop of a hat. We learn to level these personas up, we figure out how to be these other people, by watching and learning to understand our friends. And there is something intensely queer about the fact that the masks we put on, with no pause or hesitation, can be male, can be female, can be both, can be neither. Sure, it’s possible to argue that the protag has any certain specific gender identity underneath/behind those masks, but then we’re heading straight towards a complicated discussion about what it means to pass as one gender, vs what it means to model yourself after individuals of one gender while passing or identifying s another, vs what it means to model your actions after a theoretical version of yourself that has a different gender than your own, and like, let us be honest, just having to get that deep into the weeds on that discussion is pretty inherently queer to begin with.

Add to that the essential nature of who Persona protags are as people, based on their reality as video game characters, and we get someone who really does not fit a ‘straight cis neurotypical’ frame. The entire scheduling system in Persona just speaks to every single part of my brain that understands executive dysfunction. You do exactly one thing per unit time. You can wander around town forever, but as soon as you stop to talk to another person, that’s it, that is your One Thing, that is all of the spoons you have for this time period, you can maybe do another thing later. This really hit home in Persona 5, where your protagonist has a goddamn talking service cat without whom he can’t remember how to start any task up to and including going to bed (and people bitched about Morgana so hard, but also #RELATABLE oh my god), but it’s there in 3 and 4 as well if you look. The P4 protag does favors for every single person in town. The P4 protag stands out in the rain fishing for hours. The P4 protag can accidentally spend an entire afternoon petting cats. The P4 protag tries to make tomorrow’s lunch and has to think for a while over whether to add soy sauce or sugar.

So: the video games give us these characters who are intended to be hollow so that we can fill them with our own self-projections (and maybe I am self-projecting here, why not, everybody else gets to do it), but that very hollowness is also a shape, do you see what I mean? You can extrapolate a person based on assuming the dialogue options the protagonists get are actual things that run through their minds, based on what choices are even available for them to make. You can ask questions about what it means to be so hollow in the first place, what it takes to be the sort of person who can switch masks in the blink of an eye when everybody else around you makes do with all of one. It’s really interesting to ask those questions.

Step two: the naming of Persona protags is complicated, and is as much a fandom question as it is a canon question.

In general, persona protags starting with P3 have gotten two names: one in the official manga that starts coming out right around the same time as the video game, and one in later animes and tie-in games. What this means, at least in Western fandom (I don’t know a ton about Japan-only fandom!) is that for the first year or more of having a protag, the only name we have for them is the manga name, and so that’s the name 99% of fandom jumps on in those first several months.

When we explore and extrapolate and do all of that extremely transformative fandom work, looking at the empty spaces around a protag and figuring out who he has to be to fill them (or she, the P3 FEMC is all of this dialed up to a hundred), we at least start doing that work under the manga name. To me–and, in my experience, to most of fandom, whether they think about it or not–the name has relatively little to do with the manga itself. It’s the name fandom had to hand when they first played the game and began to figure this person out. It’s the name for thousands of different interpretations that can fit inside the shell of a person the video game gives us.

I find that transformative labor, and those thousand different interpretations, wildly fascinating. I enjoy doing it myself. I like seeing what other people come up with. Figuring out how to fill the outline of a person who can be anyone (figuring out the difference between Minato Arisato, and Souji Seta, and Akira Kurusu, and learning who they are as individuals by picking out their contrasting spaces) is one of my favorite things about Persona.

The characters from the tie-in animes, then–and from P4 games like Arena and Dancing All Night, which are as much visual novel as video game, where the MC has an extremely distinct personal voice–each present one version of that infinitely-variable character. They’re a single interpretation. They’re a specific interpretation, separate from the many open options of the game itself, they just happen to come with a specific name.

Makoto Yuki, from the P3 anime, is a very different person than the character I played when I played P3, and they’re both very different than the person I write when I write Minato Arisato, the human I extrapolate when I look at all of canon and put my analysis goggles on. Now, I happen to love the P3 movies, and their interpretation of Makoto Yuki, who is a giant ball of severe depression and whom I consider an excellent exploration of the game’s themes of despair and mortality, but I love them like a really, really good fanfic. They don’t trump the ‘canon’ of the game for me; they’re an outgrowth of it. Likewise, I don’t know Ren Amamiya particularly well, but he’s a quiet guy with an inner well of sheer rage that really works for me in what I’ve seen of him. Not my Akira, but a cool dude.

In general, when I’m talking about Persona protags, I use the anime or tie-in game name to refer to the specific version of that character written in that game or anime, and the manga name to refer to that earlier, slightly hollow character of infinite possibilities and fandom interpretations. Which leads us to Souji and Yu.

Step 3: Yu Narukami is a fucking jackass

I think the big thing for me about Yu Narukami, the specific interpretation of P4 Protagonist as seen in the anime and tie-in games, is that he isn’t genderqueer or neurodivergent. Yu Narukami is perhaps the straightest character in all of Persona with the possible exception of Junpei Iori.

I don’t actually hate him in the anime all that much, but thinking about Arena-Yu…he’s a dude. He’s a fucking bro. He screws around with Yosuke over the suggestion of dirty magazines and he’s vaguely uncomfortable about Kanji. It’s been a while since I went through any game LP’s, but I remember the attitude Yu took towards his friends and Labrys, and it was authoritative. Certain. Of course Labrys can overcome her past, now that she has us here to be friends. Yukiko isn’t talking like I expect Yukiko to talk, so of course something is wrong with her.

Yu Narukami, as presented in the Arena games (and I’m pretty sure P4DAN, though it’s been even longer since I’ve seen that) is an In Charge kind of guy who Knows What’s Best for people, and doesn’t particularly need to listen to what they have to say to do it. He shows no sign of ever having molded himself around someone else; he does not present himself as a man (as a boy) who would or even could switch up who he is at a moment’s notice, because he doesn’t seem to be somebody who ever thinks there’s anything wrong with exactly who he is in the first place. Yu Narukami never had a shadow because he just thinks he’s Exactly That Cool all the way down. He pops the collar on his polo shirt not because he doesn’t know any better, but because he is actually that guy and always was.

Needless to say, that is not my Seta Souji, who spends hours petting cats, and rarely speaks up to bring order (let alone authority) to his rambunctious bickering friends in any discussion. It’s an interpretation, sure–and it’s even an interesting one!–but he is not a guy I particularly like.

So how do those two people, Yu and Souji, even fit together at all?

And this is where we go from me having opinions on various actual versions of characters as-written, and start diving into themes, theories, and mythological parallels. There is a way to tell the story where it all makes sense, where Souji (and even the Yu of the anime, who’s got more shades of asshole than my typical headcanon but still sits far closer to my personal version of the protag than any of the douchebro versions of Yu in the sequel games) ties into later-Yu and it’s a graceful, interesting, thematic choice.

I don’t think it was intentional on the part of the writers. But it does work. And here’s how.

Step 4: I go on a digression about persona protags and sacrifice

I have spent way too much time thinking about themes and parallels between Personas 3, 4, and 5 (someday I’ll watch some decent LPs of 1 and 2, but today is not yet that day, so we’ll stick to the Wild Card trilogy for now). One of the things that I love is the way each protag interacts with the big major theme thing of their game, losing it and gaining it and sacrificing it only to gain it yet again, and it happens in all three games.

In P3, the thing at the center of the game is life, in contrast to mortality. You’re in a car crash at age 6, your parents die, you carry Death Himself in the space behind your heart, you spend all game struggling to survive and also trying to figure out why you even care to bother. At the end you die so your friends can live, but also you’re not, quite, entirely dead–you are asleep, and at the end of all the world you’ll wake up and still be there, just you and Aigis and Elizabeth at the end of all things, alive and mortal. In P5 it’s freedom, and you start the game in chains, flash forward and flash back, breaking bonds and forging them right up to the point where you turn yourself into the police, only to eventually be found innocent of even the original crime that bound you to begin with. There are metaphors and angles to the whole thing, the way becoming Satanael is in its own way both a defiance of Yaldabaoth in front of you and a surrender, complying with the will of every furious desperate angry follower-believer-worshipper in the Tokyo streets, but what we care about most right now is how this shows up in Persona 4, where our thing is identity.

The Persona 4 protagonist, whoever he is, shows up in this small town with no identity at all. He had a life where people knew him, but the people in this small town don’t even have rumor and hearsay about dead parents or criminal charges to go on. And sure, every protagonist starts out on a train to a new town, but the P4 protagonist goes even farther than that. You show up in Inaba, and one of the very first things that happens to you, something that doesn’t happen to any Persona protag in any game I’ve ever seen, is that you lose your persona.

The starting persona in P4 is Izanagi. Based on the fact that Adachi’s persona is Izanagi, too, based on the fact that Izanami is the one who granted you access to the TV world and presumably a working persona to begin with, based on every theme and implication in the game–Izanami gives you your starting persona. She chooses who you are. She declares that you’re ‘hope’, and maybe you had some qualities that suited you for that role to begin with, but anyone you’ve ever been is gone now in service to your part in Izanami’s play.

One of the things I really liked in the P4 anime was the protag’s terror of being alone and empty. Now, I enjoy my Souji Seta as someone who’s a little bit hollow and empty–not in a bad way, but like a clear glass that can be filled with anything, and takes on the color and nature of whatever it holds–but right, in a story whose main theme is identity and accepting yourself, being infinitely transformable is both ideal and terrifying. If the P4 protag can be anyone, how can he be someone? In the end, the only identity that’s really his and not copied from one of his social links is the one that Izanami gave him. His final persona, Izanagi-no-Okami, has more to do with her than anything that comes from inside him.

Loss and gain, sacrifice and victory–the P4 protag goes back to his old life, sacrificing the person he’s created for himself here in Inaba to reclaim the person he theoretically used to be. Depending on how you read the ending, he gives up his infinite adaptability in order to fill himself with a final persona that is chosen for him, sacrificing his innate capacity to be anyone (which is in its own right a key characteristic of his self) in exchange for becoming someone, specifically a someone who was chosen for him.

(This is more my interpretation than anything I’d consider strictly canon, but–in my head, the P3 protag achieves that final moment of apotheosis, and the god-binding power that comes with it, from the sacrifice of his own life and also the fact that after Death lived in his heart for ten years straight he’s explicitly no longer entirely human to begin with. The P5 protag achieves it by sacrificing his own individual freedom to the collective belief and prayers of literal hordes of desperate people, which we know is full of power because that’s how cognition works. The P4 protag, I have always suspected just a little, gets it from the actual Izanagi–because if the actual Izanami is the source of all of this trouble, the actual Izanagi must exist too, and to trap a god you must be a god, in some small way. Our protag is given the tools of power to seal Izanami away, and in return he must become a tool of that power.)

There are a lot of ways to interpret the themes and echoes and actual events of P4 vs P4 Golden vs P3 and P5, and this isn’t necessarily Objective Truth, but this is very much where my head goes when I think about Souji Seta and Yu Narukami. Souji is the empty, unflappable chameleon boy who spends his time becoming whoever the people around him need him to be, whether that’s a silent confidant or a valiant hero. Yu is the bold, self-assured young man who has discovered or decided exactly who he is, and knows deep in his heart that he never has to hide or change for anyone, ever again.

Step 5: Yu is a dick because Izanagi is a dick, and okay, fine, I kind of love it that way

All of Persona 4 is about retelling the myth of Izanagi and Izanami, and changing the ending.

This is true for P3 and P5 too, of course. In P3 you walk into Tartarus with everyone you love already at your back, and you set them free to do their own thing (they make their own moves in battle, you don’t turn back to check on them, you trust them to follow or not follow on your own and every member in your team makes their greatest moments of personal growth without you there), but eventually one of you has to stay behind so the other can leave–so you fix Orpheus’s mistake, you stay in the underworld yourself so Eurydice and everyone else you love in the world can go home and live. In P5 you tell Satanael’s story backwards and forwards, the rise and the fall and the rise again; you start at the very bottom of your own pit (you start as the God of Control’s very own chosen one and don’t even know it), and eventually you climb so high that you’re the one who gets to cast God down into perdition instead. Start with one tale, end with another.

The story of Izanagi and Izanami is: once upon a time, through no fault of her own, Izanami was sent to the underworld, and Izanagi loved her so well he ventured down after her. But she was changed down there, her own darkness grown gross and rotten, and though she tried to hide her ugly parts Izanagi did see them. And then he didn’t love her any more; he fled, and trapped her there in darkness forever, to protect the whole world from her flaws, and never ever looked at his own.

You spend all of Persona 4 doing exactly the opposite: venturing down into another world to find people trapped there, and facing their ugliness, and embracing them and drawing them up into the light anyway. Namatame is Izanagi-who-dooms-them, though his intentions are good (Izanami died giving birth to Izanagi’s child in the first place). Adachi is Izanagi-corrupted, claimed and twisted by the darkness of the underworld and his own power, with no mercy in him. But the P4 protag gets to play the Izanagi of compassion, who tried to save his wife in the first place–and we get to fix it. We get to save people. We get to save everyone.

Until we get to Izanami herself, because Izanami can’t be saved. This all gets way more complicated in Golden when we add in Marie, but in the end, we’ve still got our protag standing in front of the goddess Izanami, sealing her away with Izanagi’s power for the sake of everyone else in the world, because she’s too dark and corrupted to bring back out into the light after all.

It’s really interesting coming at all of this from a Western perspective, because I…can’t actually tell if, playing through P4, we’re meant to like Izanagi? Are we meant to be on his side in the end? Are we meant to feel like we’re on this whole quest serving penance for his ancient mythological fuck-up? Are we meant to think that Yu Narukami, who’s embraced Izanagi in all his pride and self-righteousness as his own inner self, is the good guy?

Because yes, Izanami was trying to destroy the world. And yes, we saved it by trapping her, just like Izanagi did in ancient myth. But the Yu Narukami I see in the sequel games is so very much the guy who thinks he gets to decide who’s good enough to get saved and who isn’t. Labrys deserves to be saved, and because he’s decided to be her friend now, she will be, just like that, because of course he has that power.

By the time Arena happens, Yu has embraced and accepted Izanagi as his true self, flaws and all. (Let me not forget to point out the sister-complex kingpin title, for the man whose persona is a god that married his own sister. Let us literally never discuss Nanako as Izanami, because that gets really uncomfortable so fucking quick.)

And Izanagi is a dick. Which means that Yu isn’t, can’t be the quiet, gentle person I see when I try to extrapolate a most-probable Souji out of P4 canon alone. Yu is an asshole because that’s the person he’s chosen to be, the identity he’s claimed to replace the one he sacrificed, and I am on reflection kind of into that.

But also he’s still a dick, and therefore I kind of hate him for it.

#acelania #persona 4 #driveby meta attack #yu narukami #souji seta #gosh I should rewatch some of the anime or the later tie-in games #if I can stand to #I do love this series

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chriscdcase95 · 5 years

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Halloween: Why the Thorn Trilogy was as underrated as "Twenty Years Later" was overrated

So yeah, I said it. And now I’m gonna explain it.

This may be some nostalgia of mine talking but as a long time fan of the Halloween series - I am talking when I was ten years old, when I was first getting into horror genre- I grew up on the old Halloween sequels consisting of the Thorn trilogy and the Twenty Years Later story lines. I know they are considered separate continuities and timelines, but y'know broad strokes, Easter-eggs, and the fact early script drafts for Twenty Years Later (Or H-20) intended to tie them together before they were cut from the final film, you can make the case they are ostensibly canon to each other, but that’s about it.

The Thorn Trilogy isn’t considered the best of the series; many fans looking down on the fifth and sixth film as being the least popular of the films. I think the only reason they aren’t considered by fans the worse in the series is because Resurrection exists, and was that followed by Rob Zombie’s remake duology. On the flip side, H-20 and 2018 are considered the golden calves of the franchise, and for the life of me, I never saw the appeal of the formers popularity. Now I can see why people have problems with the Thorn trilogy - especially regarding the cult and curse plot element of the sixth film. Unpopular opinion, but the sixth film was my favourite of the series - maybe has to do with my autism appealing me with both world building and the familiar - or that it seemed to tie up one storyline, but at the same time set up so much that I was disappointed that it didn’t continue.

For context, this post is partially inspired by Schaffrillas Productions video about Shrek 2. In this I will be using the criteria of what he describes as a “Perfect Sequel” which I’ll apply to the Halloween series, and as his Shrek 2 video says, there’s no such thing as the perfect movie; there’s too many variables to cover in a single movie alone, while a movie can preform it’s functions as a sequel perfectly even that doesn’t mean the movie itself is perfect. The “Perfect Sequel” criteria goes as such; expanding the universe; continue the story; introduce new themes or expand on old themes; leave an impact on the franchise.

Like Schaffrillas Productions, I will use this criteria to determine what the Thorn trilogy did right over H-20. Now am I gonna throw the 2018 sequel into the equation ? Maybe for compare and contrast purposes, but the 2018 sequel hits those same beats. There really is no competition between H-20 and 2018, I don’t question why the latter is considered a fan favorite. What I am primarily doing here is comparing the old sequels, and 2018 barely comes into the equation.

Does the Thorn Trilogy expand the films universe ? Does is continue the story ? As far as continuing the story goes ? Well that’s a no brainier; Halloween II begins where the original film ends; Return of Michael Myers picks up ten years later with Michael waking up from a coma after his seeming death in the second; Revenge follows Return and that leads to Curse. You get the picture, there’s an overarching story here.

“But does it introduce new themes that impact the franchise ?” You ask. Not the Thorn trilogy itself, but the second film does. Halloween II kinda sorta introduces a supernatural element to Michael by hinting a connection to the an ancient element of Halloween - more specifically the lord of the dead Samhain- but more importantly revealing that Michael and Laurie are brother and sister. The supernatural stuff is explored exclusively throughout Return to Curse, but ever since it was revealed the entire Halloween series hinged off of Michael and Laurie’s familial connection. Even in 2018 where they discontinue the sibling aspect, the theme of family permeates the plot, with the focus hear being on Laurie, her family drama, her need to protect them and how Michael not only affected her but her family.

In what’s relevant here is Michael and Laurie’s family connection is the focal point of the Thorn Trilogy, albeit not through Laurie herself; our lead character in Return and Revenge is Jamie Lloyd, the orphaned daughter of Laurie Strode and niece of Michael Myers, and she is what made their relationship the most plot relevant. Before Michael even wakes up from his coma, we are introduced to Jamie being haunted and even bullied over the fact that she’s and orphan and how her uncle is the infamous boogeyman. Her mother is gone, and she never even met her uncle, and yet both their shadows hang over her. Once Michael learns he has a niece that’s still alive, that’s all he needs to get up and at ‘em and nothings gonna stop him from getting his hands on her. And once he does in Curse ? It’s their baby he’s after next! Yes, their baby. Michael is the biological father of Jamie’s son Steven, who becomes his new target and finds an adoptive family in Tommy Doyle, Karla Strode, and her son Danny, who take the responsibility to protect Steven from not only Michael, but an evil cult that will no doubt be following them for some time. So we have something set up; a possible future confrontation between Michael and his vengeful son, and defeat the cult that has been mentoring Michael and orchestrating his rampages from behind the scenes.

So what comes next ? H-20 gives us Dawson’s Creek with a serial killer. One of the things I mark against H-20 was I felt it lacked the same kind of substance as the previous trilogy. For something that was conceived as the finale of the Halloween saga, I just couldn’t get emotionally invested, and maybe it had to do with the later release of Resurrection and the knowledge of what comes next. Maybe I was deflated that Jamie wouldn’t get justice, or that we wouldn’t find out what became of Little Baby Steven. Sure we got a plot about Laurie being a protective mother towards her son John, but for some reason I couldn’t really empathize with John in comparison to Jamie - not helping his case is that 2018 Laurie has a new daughter in Karen who has the same kind of baggage John had with Laurie, was a more interesting in characterization. John was a just a Dawson’s Creek student who serves as someone Laurie needs to fight for, only to be forgotten in Resurrection. Unlike Jamie or Karen, John was more of a plot device than a character.

As far as expanding on the previous films themes go, H-20 doesn’t really do this. It’s focus is on Laurie and her incoming “final” confrontation with her brother…but it doesn’t feel like it has the same weight. Laurie’s having her nightmares, she’s living in paranoia and the constant fear of her brother inevitably coming after her again, and how it took a toll on her relationship with her son. That’s all well and good, but the problem is the emotions feel underwhelming here. I’m not bashing the acting or anything, but I think I was supposed to take Laurie and John’s screaming match when they argue about Michael more seriously than I actually did (their second scene together by the way). Maybe they should have focused more on Laurie’s angst, and her relationship with her son, but it all felt rushed and emotionally underdeveloped in comparison to Laurie’s emotional scars shown in 2018, which felt like they had a little more weight here. 2018 gave us a slow burn with them, H-20 gave us the last three episodes of Game of Thrones.

Also the fact its Halloween night is barely a factor in this movie. There’s more focus on a trip to Yosemite Park than the actual holiday, and none of the characters don’t even go on the trip itself. Hell, this movie and it’s sequel were released in the summer.

“What about expanding the films universe ?” As I said above, I think the main thing I liked about the Thorn trilogy was it’s world building. It is next to 2018 with the most lore filled storylines in the series, (and I expect more to come from 2018’s sequels). And the Thorn trilogy not only captured the atmosphere, but tied the lore of the actual holiday of Halloween much better than H-20. And for better or worse, we dig in a little more into the mystery that is Michael Myers and his family. Or do we ?

Short answer is “Depends on what version of the sixth movie you watch.” Yeah I know the sixth movie introduces the Thorn cult and curse, but there is are differences between the Theatrical Cut and the Producers Cut on account of things that have been added, cut or changed outright between the two versions. The Producers Cut is the only version Michael being a puppet of the Thorn Curse and tool to this cult. The Theatrical Cut plays around with this idea but doesn’t explore it beyond a theory Tommy has, but isn’t verified in the cut itself. As far as the Theatrical Cut is concerned, Michael is just a rage driven psychopath.

And honestly I get that one of the supposed appeals to Michael Myers is the mystery of his character. Everyone goes off about how he was such a cool villain in the first movie was because of his mysteriousness and the questions left unanswered and go on and on about it. But here’s the thing, the point of a mystery is the need to solve it, the need to explore and find out more about this mysterious figure. Michael being a mysterious figure can work in one or two movies before it gets boring and he just becomes a blank slate, a carboard cut-out. And really that was one of the problems Michael had in H-20. The Thorn Trilogy gives three movies to find out more about Michael, and his familial connection to Laurie Strode is the focus, even with Laurie out of the picture. Some would say because we find out more about Michael, his status as a villain is cheapened, but I always thought he becomes more interesting the more we find out about him.

In H-20, we got nothing with Michael. We don’t find out anything really new or interesting, or anything that really makes him that much of a threat. The whole movie was about a showdown he was going to have with Laurie twenty years after his first rampage, but there’s no real substance with Michael this time around. And this isn’t the same as 2018 going back to basics by following only the first movie - H-20 explicitly follows the second movie so this is the same Michael who hints at a supernatural element, the same Michael who is revealed to be Laurie’s brother, but none of that is really important here. The brother and sister element - the crux of these two characters, isn’t of importance here as it was for the Thorn trilogy; the closest we get to that is the scene where Laurie kills someone she thinks is Michael, which leads to Resurrection.

Michael and Laurie felt more related in 2018 than they ever did in H-20. And speaking of 2018, I know they brought Michael back to his original form, but considering there’s two sequels to that movie in the works, there is only so much you can do before Michael becomes “cheapened” by finding out more about him or become boring by keeping him a blank slate. Like I said, Michael can only really get away with being enigmatic for one or two movies before it just becomes a crutch and excuse which would result in him becoming boring.

As far as world building goes, the H-20 storyline doesn’t really expand the universe besides taking us to a boarding school in California, but I can give it leniency since it was gonna originally be a follow up on the previous trilogy. Now onto comparing characters.

Laurie Strode as a Protagonist

While it goes with out saying that Laurie Strode is a runner up when it comes to being the OG Final Girl. In the same way Michael helped define the slasher villain, Laurie is helped define what the final girl is. In just about every timeline and storyline in the Halloween series, all it took was one night to shape Laurie as her fateful encounter with Michael. In the first two movies, Laurie was a great protagonist, she was the naive, inexperienced teenage girl, and even a sisterly figure to Tommy Doyle. She was a protective babysitter who risks her neck to not just survive the night against a psychotic stalker, but protect the kids that are in her care. And that was just the first movie.

The second movie (which takes place on the same night mind you) things get personal with the brother/sister relationship. In this movie, the family aspect did impact Laurie; Laurie was the first person who finds out the truth and has a dream induced flashback of when she met Michael when she was younger shortly after her mother told her she was adopted. Laurie wakes up and the revelation that the seeming stranger that just murdered her friends is her brother, it puts her into a brief catatonic shock…although she might have been faking it while planning an escape. Point is the brother revelation had an effect on her.

But watching II and Twenty Years Later back to back, I just didn’t feel that it the same impact as it did in the previous movie. Michael’s relation to Laurie wasn’t as important in this film as it did the previous films. If it wasn’t for the fact that the brother-sister thing was mentioned a few times, it didn’t feel like it had that much of a weight to it. It didn’t feel like Laurie was afraid of her brother here, but rather just the guy who terrorized her. Like I said, above, Laurie and Michael felt more “related” in 2018 than they did in H-20, despite that aspect being cut out. The closest we get to Laurie having a moment of “this is my brother” is the scene where she kills some poor sap she thinks is Michael.

The focus in both H-20 and 2018 is about Laurie’s trauma and paranoia about Michael coming after her and her children. But overall I felt 2018!Laurie was the better take on the character, especially in that aspect; we see how strained her relationship with her daughter is and how close she is with her granddaughter. 2018!Laurie’s life effectively went down the tubes and Michael never stopped haunting her, and has burned himself into her very soul, that it would be irrelevant whether or not they are blood related. It’s gotten to the point where her daughter barely has a relationship with her. Despite this and having little to lose, 2018!Laurie has spent forty years preparing for a showdown with Michael, and is just itching for him to come loose again, arming herself, fortifying her house, keeping herself in shape the whole nine yards. Because it makes her that much stronger, makes her a little bit harder, makes her that much wiser, so thanks for making her a fighter.

H-20!Laurie spent twenty years just living in fear of Michael that at some point to the point that she faked her death, but doesn’t do much of else. And honestly despite her trauma and paranoia in this movie, I was less sympathetic to this take on Laurie, because she has a lot more to lose. She hasn’t had her life ruined by Michael in the same way 2018!Laurie has, in fact she lived a more comfortable (dare I say) privileged life, as the headmistress of a boarding school in sunny California, and still has a considerably more positive relationship with her son, and it’s only after Michael catches up to her, she’s ready to confront him and (seemingly) kill him. And I just couldn’t feel the same emotions with H-20!Laurie as I did with the 2018 counterpart.

I thought that H-20 was a little rushed with her character development and arc. But I think what made me unsympathetic is because Resurrection made it hard for me to root for in retrospect, and the fact H-20 was originally going to be directly tied with the Thorn trilogy; keep in mind as far as the Thorn trilogy goes, Laurie was killed in a car accident, which left her daughter Jamie virtually alone, with her mothers death taking an obvious toll on her, which dear old uncle Michael is out to kill her. H-20 reveals Laurie faked her death, and considering the original plans to tie the two stories, this effectively means that Laurie faked her death, abandoned Jamie with seemingly no regard for her, and let Jamie go through Hell alone. And I’m supposed to feel sorry for Laurie because of twenty years of nightmares ? Yeah, 2018!Laurie is the mother that Jamie deserves.

Which leads us too…

Jamie Lloyd as a protagonist

Now Jamie was considered a fan favorite upon her introduction, and in my opinion is one of the most thematically important characters in the series. As I explained above, Jamie is the linchpin of Michael and Laurie’s relationship, being both Laurie’s daughter and Michael’s niece. From such, both characters shadows hang over Jamie, despite and because of Laurie being out of the picture. Despite being a child, Jamie is subjected to the trauma of her mothers passing and her relationship with the boogeyman being public knowledge (and other children bully her over it, I can’t get over that).

Now there’s two kind of protagonist dynamics that Laurie and Jamie fill that contrast each other; Laurie is the protector of the cute, Jamie is the cute. But Laurie’s not around, and Jamie would be completely alone if it where not for her foster sister Rachel, Rachel’s friends, the local and state police and a mob of vigilantes. Well unfortunately, the Jamie Lloyd Protection Squad are a non issue to Michael who had squad of his own in the form of the Thorn cult, and these fuckers don’t play around. The world will stop at nothing at kicking Jamie down, and kicking her while she’s down, just for existing. If that’s not enough, she is held captive for years by a cult, forcibly impregnated by Michael and disemboweled in the sixth movie.

Did I mention Jamie was an eight to nine year old kid in the fourth and fifth movie ? I can see why Danielle Harris is disgruntled that she couldn’t return. Fun fact, Danielle Harris wanted the sixth film to have Jamie die killing Michael once and for all to save her baby. But because this is Jamie Lloyd we are talking about, she’s not allowed to get justice. You could make the argument that Jamie gets points dying to save her baby in the actual movie…but it wasn’t Danielle Harris playing, so whatevs I guess.

As I already said, what made Jamie a little more interesting for me than H-20!Laurie is that her connection to Michael being more emphasized here than with Laurie. This was first shown in the fourth movie and expanded upon in the fifth, which implies Michael has some sort of psychic and emotional link with Jamie. Under Michael’s influence, Jamie attacks her foster mother, and is subsequently institutionalized, and is still terrorized by Michael through nightmares, visions and seizures, as Michael continuously taunts Jamie with the murders of her protection squad. That’s when it hit me; Jamie and Michael are Ying and Yang, and that’s why it worked. Where Jamie was innocence, Michael was purely evil.

Michael is the human personification of evil, it only makes sense he be connected to someone who is pure and simply innocent. These two effect each other, and compliment each other. I’m honestly curious how this connection played out during Jamie’s captivity, because despite everything she’s been through, she was still innocent enough to try to reach out to Michael a final time. In the fifth film Michael has a bizarre moment of humanity and feels brief remorse due to Jamie’s influence and on the flip side, Jamie has a brief moment of darkness due to Michael’s influence. So of course I’m going to avoid a certain Mad Titan’s quote about perfect balance, because the meme is too easy. It dawns on me that I may be reading into something that isn’t there, but dear reader is what all theorists and analysts such as myself do ?

And speaking of perfect balance, that is another reason why I think a storyline about baby Steven introduced in the sixth film is a wasted chance. Not only is his *ahem* “origin” anti-hero backstory material, but think about what Steve represents; he’s a living combination of Jamie’s innocence and Michael’s evil. He is someone who not only carries Laurie and Jamie’s legacy on his back, but Michael’s legacy as well. Thematically speaking, he is prime material to be the one to one day kill Michael once and for all. But we got more of Michael fighting Laurie, so I guess that’s cool.

Michael Myers as a villain

Okay, what can I say about Michael as a villain that hasn’t already been said ? I mean what movie does him best ? Many would say the first two. But what does a better job at “expanding” Michael. Many would also say the 2018 sequel, but that’s not primarily what I’m comparing here, so we are sticking with the old school sequels. Michael’s main appeal to the bulk of the fandom was the mystery aspect of him in the first movie. But “Michael is cool because he’s mysterious” can only work for one or two movies before it becomes a crutch and as a result turns Michael into blank slate. And considering that 2018 has two sequels in the work, Michael is likely to get some “expansion” to keep him interesting, and that’s because the appeal to a mystery is the inherent need to solve it.

But that is beside the point. In my personal opinion, Michael’s appeal wasn’t that he was a mystery, but that he was the human personification of evil, and from such I think the only way Michael can really be cheapened is if he was given something to humanize him like love, empathy or sympathetic qualities. And no, the single tear in the fifth movie ultimately means nothing considering what happens down the line. So as long as Michael is evil and doing inherently evil deeds, I don’t see it as cheapening him.

So how does one expand on Michael and his evil correctly ? Make him a bigger threat with each passing sequel, and give him more heinous deeds under his belt.

In the second movie, he massacres a hospital to get to Laurie. The fourth movie has him slaughtering an entire police force and a vigilante mob just to get to Jamie. The fifth movie has Michael track down Jamie’s friends and foster sister, and display their corpses as a way to taunt Jamie. Sixth movie, he disembowels Jamie after she gives birth - mocking Jamie for trying reach out to him no less! - before seeking out and trying to kill their baby, and massacres a group of followers for thinking they can control him. There’s also Steven’s conception, which is universally regarded as too far even for Michael. 2018 has Michael kill a child onscreen, exceed the body count of the first movie before he even gets his mask back -and just to get his mask back- kills several people in different houses in a matter of minutes, and uses a cops severed head as a makeshift Jack-o-Lantern. You see that ? In almost each sequel, Michael was more of a threat, and was more “creative” when it came to his evil. He fulfilled a function as a villain and evil personified with no real humanity and no moral restraint.

What about H-20 ? Compared to those other movies, Michael was boring here. He kills three people at the beginning of H-20 and three more in the third act, but isn’t really creative or spectacular (except for using a skate for one kill). The bulk of the movie is Michael just traveling to the boarding school Laurie is hiding in, but doesn’t really do anything of substance. I wouldn’t mind too much, but back in the day this was billed as the final movie. The only creative thing Michael does is fake his death and that isn’t revealed until Resurrection which was near universally disowned by the fandom. Give Resurrection this, it adds more to Michael’s rap sheet. We do get a brief montage at the beginning of H-20 that implies that Michael has gone on a killing spree across the country, but the problem is it breaks the “show don’t tell rule”.

I’ll give them this, we do get a comic book miniseries called Nightdance set in the H-20 continuity, that expands on Michael’s evil and menace in ways I won’t spoil here because I recommend it, and it’s not as well known as Resurrection despite being considered by some to be the better follow up. It’s almost a shame this wasn’t made into a movie, because in the actual movies in that timeline Michael didn’t feel as threatening or menacing, took a lot of the edge off his character, and made him especially weak compared to the previous sequels. You could make the argument that the movie was mainly focused on Laurie’s facing her demons, the problem was that everything was rushed and undeveloped in that department, so Laurie’s character arc doesn’t really make up for it.

Compare and contrast this with 2018, which gave us a slow burn focus on how Michael effected Laurie, Laurie’s relationship with her family and quickly shown us the stakes Michael’s threat poses. It really makes me question why H-20 was seen as such a golden calf back in the day. It seems to me that is was mostly because Jamie Lee Curtis made a comeback for that movie.

Conclusion

So that’s my reasoning for why the Thorn trilogy hits the “Perfect Sequel” beats over H-20; it had more lore and world building; had a greater focus on the themes introduced in the second film; a more sympathetic protagonist; Michael’s evil was empathized more; and an atmosphere closer related to the actual holiday of Halloween. 2018 had some of the same beats at the Thorn trilogy, but I’m not gonna a final decision until the 2018 sequels are finished. It’s a personal standard of mine to wait until the story is over before I make a final decision.

I will give 2018 points so far for building it’s new lore and developing it’s new characters in one movie, but I think it has it’s problems too. Mainly that 2018 felt more like a big “Fix It” fanfic brought to the cinema, and was a little heavy when it came to self referencing humor, call-backs and leaning on the fourth wall, and fandom wish fulfillment. 2018 isn’t a bad movie, it’s one of my favorite sequels, but even so I can’t get around the whole “fanfic-ish” feel I got from watching it.

Pretty much the one thing H-20 has over 2018 was that it didn’t try too hard to be Scream, which was a formula most late 90’s horror films followed. At most we were given a quick Scream cameo, that could possibly shatter the canon if I think of it too much. H-20 went out of its way by not copying Scream during the writing process. Little known fact, but while H-20 was intended to be the last Halloween film, the studio had this rule was that Michael Myers wasn’t allowed to actually be killed off, so a sequel was planned in advance to clarify he was still alive; the original plan was that “Michael” would be a obsessed fan and copycat; that idea was scrapped possibly for following the “Scream formula” too much, and what we got instead was the infamous paramedic twist in Resurrection.

#halloween #Halloween Return of Michael Myers #Halloween Revenge of Michael Myers #Halloween Curse of Michael Myers #Halloween Twenty Years Later #halloween resurrection #Halloween Nightdance #michael myers #laurie strode #Jamie Lloyd #Steven Lloyd #tommy doyle #John Tate #Jamie Lee Curtis #Danielle Harris #unpopular opinion

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morshtalon · 5 years

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Shin Megami Tensei

(Definitely part 3 of a series of posts on the entire franchise)

For the end of MegaTen II, Atlus pulled out all the stops in terms of who you'd meet and what their importance to the lore was. While the ending arguably did leave some room for further escalation, by choosing to continue the story as it was, they'd be agreeing to keep being derivative works in relation to the books that originated their backstory. Sure, it was hardly the case anymore, what with the extreme departures MegaTen II took from the novels, but still. I guess the relative corner the writers got themselves backed into, combined with the clamor to have a more independent franchise on their hands, prompted them to scrap their established continuity and kick off a new one of their own. Whatever the real case was, it was definitely a smart choice, and thus was born Shin Megami Tensei, a way for them to keep their profitable series going. Also probably a much better game than a MegaTen III would have been.

Anyway, with a new continuity, possibilities were endless. They could better retread grounds they had already covered in the previous two games (well, really just MTII, since the first one barely even had anything going on), and expand upon ongoing themes while not having to worry about the usual expectation for a sequel in terms of magnitude and impact. Given that, it's unsurprising that, in comparison to MTII, this game dials things down a notch, relegating most of the more classical power fantasy stuff to the third act and preferring to engage in more character-driven events while leading up to it. None of the final enemies in SMT are as powerful as the ones in MTI and II (in story terms, actual battle stats notwithstanding) and the influence of cosmic forces that would have been enemies fought directly in the titles so far takes on a distant, more psychological approach (for the most part), unable to be challenged by the player. This helps build them as respectable overarching threats, and keeps the setting more subdued and the stakes higher, since it feels like characters are acting under the banner of things so powerful the player shouldn't even think themselves able to scratch them. It's good not to stat things sometimes, and it's quite impressive that they exercised this restraint way back in 1992.

For the demons that ARE fought, though, the artists really put their all into it this time. Even compared to games in the series's near future, I think this is the best looking they would be for a while. I mean, sure, Majin Tensei later on would have more detailed graphics, but I feel the art itself was worse there, with some weird proportions and a lot of palette swaps, while this game keeps things more consistently good overall.

Naturally, one longstanding tradition of the franchise introduced in SMT was the philosophical axis of Law vs. Chaos and the branching story that allowed the player to sit in any one point of the spectrum, with a modified final act depending on your decisions up to a certain point and where in the axis they would leave you once this point is reached. This system was partly a logical progression of the two endings from MTII and partly a way to integrate gameplay significance into what was already the grand point of SMT's storyline. While a good idea on paper and certainly innovative for its time and context, the warring faction-based story meant that as far as the plot is concerned, Law vs. Chaos pertains more to which of the factions you're appeasing with your decisions rather than any particularly lawful or chaotic behavior. There are some things that shift your alignment that have to do with being lawful or chaotic, but those lie mostly outside of the plot, in small actions that only serve to bring things one way or the other on infinitesimal increments and are meant more as an extra level of thought put into the system to label certain actions that were always there. The parallelisms between one faction and the other (i.e. temples that are identical in functionality; quests that consist of killing the other faction's quest-giver or vice-versa), together with certain easily exploitable ways to shift the alignment variable any way you want (so that you can play the game being entirely chaotic up to the crucial point where your alignment is locked, then right before that, exploit the mechanics to bring yourself to Law without having done anything lawful throughout the rest of the game), make the whole alignment system feel arbitrary, or at least the actual coded-in gameplay layer of it. I feel like maybe having only the unrepeatable story decisions actually affect alignment could help mitigate this somewhat. Then again, as I said, the story stuff doesn't feel much like the player being lawful or chaotic, so... I don't know.

Regardless of which path you take, you are going to get into a lot of fights. The game plays basically exactly like MTII, with an overhead top-down overworld and first-person dungeon crawling once you enter an area. This time around, very few areas are safe from enemy encounters, which makes sense since you're mostly just walking around Tokyo and a lot of first-person areas are just sections of the city that are populated (and besides, all of Tokyo is under threat from the demons). It made me realize that it's actually the typical RPG that opts to be nonsensical about the no-monsters-in-towns rule, but I'd be damned if that's not a smart choice on the part of the typical RPG. There are so many random encounters in this game, it's a common occurence for you to get several 1-step fights in a row. When I play an RPG, there's usually a point where I get really bored of always fighting enemies, then I finally escape the dungeon I'm in or go into a town and it's a big relief, like I can finally walk around and talk to people without having to stop dead in my tracks to fight the same enemy I already proved I can beat five hundred times before. Not so much in this game, and you'll definitely be crying out for an Estoma or a Fuma Bell most of the time. If you even know these two things act like repels in Pokémon and realize how useful they are.

If you don't know, however, you're going to need a lot of patience, because once again the game is very easy. Aside from, once again, a difficult earlygame, especially if you didn't put the right stat points into your protagonist (read: vitality and speed), the same basic problems from the previous two games' core concept of walking around and fighting dudes can be found here, but this time guns have ammo. Ammo doesn't actually count how many bullets you have left, it's just an extra thing you can equip that gives your gun attack an extra property such as more damage or a status effect. Thing is, status effects have an absurdly high hit rate in this game, work on most bosses, and there's a type of ammo that causes the "enthralled" status effect, which makes the target attack their own allies. Once you've got your hands on it, the game has been effectively turned into an interactive movie, even easier than the NES ones. Even without it, magic always seems to go before physical attacks, and both lightning and ice spells can stop an enemy for the current turn, so you'll likely always find a way to trivialize encounters within your disposal if you're just playing the game normally, even if you didn't realize it. With good speed, lightning or ice spells at your disposal and some status effect ammo, nothing will ever be able to stop you, no matter how hard they try. Once again, it's a preparations game, and that auto-battle button will get an intense workout this time around. I actually cleared the entire final dungeon under the effect of consecutive Fuma Bells, because of the combined effect a high encounter rate and the knowledge that the bosses could not stop me had on my brain. It's all about knowing which things are actually useful and which aren't, so it's actually just about struggling until the point you figure it out, then blazing through the game's fights half-asleep.

Still, battles notwithstanding, I think the exploration is more masterful than ever this time around. There isn't any significant portion of the game where you're clearly going after McGuffins, the whole story is pretty tightly paced and the balance between open-endedness and plot progression is well kept. There is a clearly evolving status quo for the entire setting of the game, and each time a major change happens new areas are made available while others are locked away. You can feel the effect the events of the narrative are having on the whole scenario, and the progression creates a bit of a disorienting effect as you attempt to find your way to the next significant location (which can and very well may cause you to get hopelessly lost on occasion, but that's part of the experience, I think). It's a pretty admirable blend of elements working together to create a continuous experience. This bleeds over into the characters themselves, who have evolving arcs and, for the most part, continue to be relevant and to have all sorts of crazy things happen to them through the course of the game. Consider it a much more mature attempt to do the sort of character-based revolving scheme that Final Fantasy IV also tried to do.

Overall, this is a game that further plays around with story concept brought over from MTII, experiments somewhat with new ways to go through some of its story beats, and creates a character-based narrative that goes through admirable amounts of change, to the point you can feel the whole cast working through their arcs as things escalate and reach a fever pitch. The gameplay is significantly less refined, though, and, admittedly, even the respectable things in SMT have struggled to stand the test of time, especially when you consider what later SMTs and SMT spinoffs would go on to do. I think this earns the original a 6.5 out of 10, my first non-integer score. It's damn respectable and admirable for 1992, but it has so many outdated things in it that it's hard to actually get oneself into the proper mentality to admire it unless you actually make the conscious decision to play the series in chronological release order. But who would be masochistic enough to do that, right?

#megaten #shin megami tensei #megami tensei #rpg #game #review

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madfictionland · 5 years

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Master Xehanort - NOT a flawless mastermind!

I’m always having trouble to understand people in KH ‘discourse’. They have every right to hate the series for many different reasons, please be my guest, but they usually do it with this silly argument that it’s so damn lame and impossible for Master Xehanort to plan all of this and predict so many variables... But I’m like... he didn’t, really... so what’s your problem even...

Sure, Xehanort kind of takes the credit for everything that happened (in DDD) and makes it sound like everything went ‘according to plan,’ but I thought that’s just what villains do, you know? Despite some setbacks, especially *when their other splintered selfs still achieve results that ultimately lead to his final goals*, it is actually fair to claim the credit. In the end it turned out perfectly well and Master Xehanort learnt a big deal of things. And knowledge is extremely important in his line of business. In the end, he WAS too eager regarding creation of his own pure light and darkness which wasn’t the right way.

But it seems like people don’t even live in a logical world anymore (once they decided they don’t like the direction the series took) and they need everything explained by characters for some reason, like a lenghty lecture from Master Xehanort perhaps... with admission after admission about where his initial plans went wrong and how exactly (which is ludicrous to expect even).

Here is a quick look at things he DID NOT predict/planned for:

1. He never planned to be defeated by Aqua and for amnesia Terranort to be created.

2. He never planned for amnesia-esque (thus less efficient) Ansem and Xemnas.

3. He never planned for the exact timing of DDD meeting and his recompletion. His words about how ‘it’s been decided’ are to be taken with a grain of salt, naturally, since Nomura’s concept of time is tricky and *kind of* fixed (since it does happen... it’s ALL been decided already, apparently). And Master Xehanort himself, despite his ambitions and discoveries, seems to be a strong proponent of ‘fate’ which corresponds with that rule of time. He took interest in Ventus because he felt like it was destiny, after all, and there are more instances of such thinking behind Xehanort.

4. He never planned for Ansem and Xemnas to be defeated since he never planned for their creation in the first place.

Now, it doesn’t mean his plans begun and ended in BBS. BBS focuses exclusively on his ambitions and schemes sorrounding Ventus and Terra but there was clearly more behind the man. Including vast knowledge about the lore, nature of the world, hearts and darkness. He did study everything about a keyblade and keyblade war which is a messed-up subject in and of itself, with so many things unclear and hopefully to be explained in KH3. Pure light and darkness? X-blade shuttered into 20 pieces? 7 pure hearts? Hearts born from darkness? Keyblade War connected to Kingdom Hearts? Door to Darkness connected to Kingdom Hearts? Maybe they’re all just legends, hence so many different stories and unclear answers? or at least that’s an explanation they can go with, so it’ll make sense. In any case, all of them crucial info for Xehanort and something to keep in mind when scheming!

See... there are so many things that it’s actually hard to get your priorities straight. I actually know this feeling pretty well when it comes to personal life or fandom activities!

So what did he plan or what were his ideas, logically?

1. Whatever his destination... Norting other people along the way seemed like a great idea (the first experiment being Braig/Vanitas most likely). But what he wanted for his original self was a perfect young vessel such as Ven or Terra, a keyblade wielder.

2. Looking for ways to forge the x-blade/make Kingdom Hearts manifest itself he already learnt of the 20 pieces of it and 7 lights. Whether there is an actual utilization behind number 13... or maybe he thought it was edgy and cool which would be character-accurate if you ask me... the idea behind 13 versions of himself working in perfect unison towards their shared goal was easily hatched. If only the Nortification technike proved to be working... possibilities were endless.

3. Maleficent seemed like a perfect candidate to be set on a path towards 7 princesses. Something crucial and what could come in handy - regarding the Door to Darkness or even the x-blade.

4. He did know how to time travel so he certainly had such an option in mind and taking into account his established, natural curiosity with the world... and with extremes such as darkness/keyblade war... not surprising he would be willing to test it and utilize it. However, it required to abondon his body which he wasn’t going to do just yet. Plus: it would be a very experimental endevour and he had better things to do. (But do you know who did think it was a great idea and felt compelled to initiate it, despite his other ambitions? Ansem Seeker of Darkness, the most brazen and insane version of Xehanort. The premise was literally about gathering 13 “seekers” of darkness so makes sense considering his own strong obsessions.)

5. Knowing that he has many different things to explore (because he has barely even scratched the surface), other than his main goal... he probably did plan to split himself into a heartless and nobody, eventually. He never really got a chance to do it and have his two halfs cooperate in perfect union (which was clearly not the case with Ansem and Xemnas). We’re to assume that amnesia Xehanort, at some point, did remember this original idea of MX, and acted accordingly.

Master Xehanort was an explorer and ambitious darkness wielder. I’m sure there was no shortage of original ideas, pathways and new, potential plans. But in the end, he had Ventus and his main attention and hopes were to exploit him to forge the x-blade. In his eagerness, that’s what he put most of his energy into during BBS. He never really realized or even initiated most of those other plans and ideas. Well... at least not on his own...

But just as Young Xehanort’s heart led him to explore the outside world (which may actually be due to fixed ‘time paradox’) in the same way different versions of Xehanort felt compelled to put into motion different fragments of his plans and ideas. Destiny and fate, the strange feeling and exploration of the unknown and darkness, something that drives Xehanort forward, very similar to how Sora is guided by his heart and in contrast to it. His younger self captures it perfectly and even though his older self (+ other incarnations) act and maybe even feel like they are in control of everything they do to achieve their own goals... at their core they’re still guided by this basic premise:

Both the irony and fascinating factor behind Xehanort. Whenever he is delayed or his plans go not as planned... all these events may still contribute to the final outcome. In the end, he was destined to end up there. So in essence, all went according to plan and his ambitions continue to progress. All of this while the old man Xehanort, his ‘original’ self... sleeps in sort of limbo state.

Now what one needs to understand to even begin to comprehend what Nomura was going for here (which most people don’t care about and it’s actually understandable, all things considered) is that Xehanort exists across many different layers of self and even planes of existence/reality (as a force of darkness or a more spiritual force in his own and Terra’s body).

There is NO ONE PERFECT MASTERPLAN.

What we have here is basically:

- Xehanort’s plan put into motion in BBS - which failed to achieve his master goal (although he did Norted Braig and maybe Vanitas).

- Apprentice Xehanort does his research and formulates some of the plans and ambitions that are later passed on to Ansem Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas, along with Apprentice Xehanort’s history and sense of self (he is aided by Nort!Braig in hopes that Master Xehanort will eventually regain his complete memory and sense of self).

- Apprentice Xehanort - being Xehanort - gets obsessed with the darkness and hearts very quickly and achieves a certain mastery. Some of it may be his heart guiding him, despite amnesia. Some of it may be actual memories resurfacing. That leads to him being able to summon his keyblade and extract his heart, though his identity is still pretty twisted and memories incomplete (calls himself Ansem, just like he did in the reports). This twisted sense of self continues into Xemnas/Ansem.

- Ansem pursues his own ambitions and curiosity regarding Kingdom Hearts, Door to Darkness and Darkness. He makes good use of Maleficent (earlier set on a path by MX) and, recalling some of his original Destiny Island’s past, tries to posses Riku (similarities between the two are just too big and you can see why Ansem was so stubborn about Riku’s body).

- Xemnas aspires to become one with Kingdom Hearts of released hearts and achieve eternity, at his highest “tragic villain” moments being influenced by more humane aspects of Apprentice Xehanort and possibly Terra (”Unfortunately, I don’t remember joy”). But beyond that, he is still Xehanort and everything that the man entails, for the most part...

Most of Apprentice/Ansem/Xemnas’es plans, knowledge and ambitions came from MX’s memories that they were able to access OR - what’s more likely - they were simply influenced by them, at first unknowingly. Furthermore, at the peak of their power - especially Xemnas and Ansem - they may recall a great deal of their past and true purpose. But it doesn’t mean they cooperate in perfect unison - because they don’t really know everything, miss important pieces of the puzzle (like keyblade war, for example) and remain their unique, unstable beings, with their own share of drama and goals. Which is why they have self preservation insticts and desire to succeed at their own goals (that wouldn’t be the case if there wasn’t any amnesia factor involved... with their sense of self being 100% Xehanort). But EVEN THEN... there is a catch. They share Xehanort’s core feature - which is this compulsive instint to follow *fate* whenever it presents itself and explore the unknown without fear nor care for one’s safety. Plus, due to different factors, they are far less stable in the sanity department! THAT’S WHY:

- Driven by some of MX’s memories (Point 2 and 4 of MX’s ideas) Ansem explores time travel and meets his younger self whom he directs on the path towards 13 Seekers of Darkness, a ‘crazy’ fail-safe which is actually a part of fixed time paradox...

- Xemnas is actively working towards Nortification project which is the true main goal and premise behind the Organization and their many detours/experiments all along.

- After being visited by Young Xehanort (at some point prior to their respective failures) - they join him without hesitation and serve under the new organiztion and their recompleted self in the future. We are to assume that Young Xehanort (who observed everything through time travel) educated them, hence they know all about their failures and events they missed.

Now, all of those big plans happen simultaneously and, for the most part, independently from one another. It’s not a single master plan but when you have so many versions of yourself somewhere out there... the odds are really in your favor. And that’s not even thanks to Master Xehanort being an efficient mastermind villain (which he is only to some extent) but due to his enormous drive to pursue Kingdom Hearts and study the dark unknown around him. Which is true for all versions of Xenahort, especially those strongly associated with his original self and not influenced by 'lesser’ traits of vessel personas (Braig’s light attitude, for example, since, as a Nort, he is kind of impatient for the final destination but NOT curious enough to dedicate himself fully to all the research and detours).

So even if his BBS plan failed and main variables shift all the time - in the end Master Xehanort remains on top. Not thanks to him, really, but kind of thanks to him. And guess what? Once he returns and recomplates himself... he actually feels like he’s been doing all these things and he gets to keep all knowlegde gathered in the process. Despite setbacks, fate has clearly been in his favor and he emraces it.

Master Xehanort is NOT a perfect chess master, directly responsible for everything that’s happened in the world of KH. But he IS an efficient short-term strategist with many ideas (as we saw in BBS) who, despite his grand goal of becoming god-like, is both driven by and strongly intertwined with fate. Sure, there are many confusing elements to it and time travel in particular wasn’t explained too well, but all things considered - MX not being such a flawless mastermind is why I still love this villain!

#master xehanort #xehanort #kingdom hearts xehanort #kingdom hearts #kingdom hearts master xehanort #and yes he is recently being shows playing chess...#but the opening with him in KH3 being a 'a chess master' behind KH1 and KH2 is just an asthetic thing #not a 100% perfect plan that he created for everything to unfold the way it did #this holds true unless KH3 will make it wrong #which i don't think it will but please no spoilers #kingdom hearts reflections

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cassatine · 6 years

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@sulfisreen, whom I cannot thank enough, pointed to me this tweet about the minefield issue of what Lucas’ VII-IX would have been, something on which i do have Opinions A NEW LUCAS WHILLS QUOTE!! That doesn’t happen everyday. And wow, what quote.

Context first: the quotes come from the James Cameron’s Story of Science Fiction book, which accompanies a four episodes, ehr, documentary series of the same name -- I haven’t watched the series or read the book and wouldn’t have without that quote, but I’ll be doing that in the next weeks. Both are quite recent, google tells me the series was release in April (2018) and the book in May. In all likelihood the quotes used in the book come from interviews conducted for the TV series.

As a disclaimer of sorts -- “Lucas on future stories and how much they’re planned” covers a range of quotes that go from fully honest to intentionally misleading and chart many changes in the conception of that future through the years. Without anything corroborating or invalidating it it’s hard to know where these new quotes fall. They also come from an interview not particularly focused on Lucas’ would-have-been ST and conducted what, five years or so after he stopped working on it. Basically some fuzziness is to be expected, and imo it could hardly be more open to interpretation.

I’ve never seen the Whills mentioned within the context of the ST (beyond speculation of course), even less what little we’ve been told of Lucas’ plans for it -- which, as the tweet noted, are pretty much only known through what other people have said, and can be resumed to: Luke would have been there as an aged master, and the protagonist would have been his student, a woman on her path to Jedi-hood, because Lucas had done two dudes already.

It’s not really a discrepancy, since that premise is compatible with Whills-y happenings, but it’s interesting it wasn’t ever mentioned before. A few possible reasons: it’s pretty obscure lore and wouldn’t speak to much of the audience. It’s definitely not where the ST is going, and the official narrative would rather stress the similarities between Lucas’ early plans and the final product. It clashes against the Whills as conceived in the new canon and inspired by Lucas’ older conceptions of them (they changed). It’s never made it out of Lucas’ head and onto paper, or only as obscure notes. It’s what he would have done now that he thinks about it (again, very recent interviews), and not what he would have done before selling the franchise. It’s really fucking weird as far as stories goes. It’s kept in reserve for some future story.

“microbiotic world” -- that’s super interesting if very obscure. Microbiotic has to do with microbiomes, ie. microbial biomes. A biome is a geographically defined ensemble of ecosystems, characterized by its climate, flora, and fauna. It’s not a static thing -- it’s a lot of variables with complex feedback relationships. A microbiome is basically the same thing but with microbial organisms and on a much, much smaller scale, like the insides of you. I don’t know what Lucas meant by it, but I think we can cross a literal Fantastic Voyage off the list I. I’m very curious to see other people think of it, but for now I lean towards it’s metaphorical, and it’s a tortuous way to talk about the unseen web of relationships between living things, which in the GFFA is infused with Meaning (the Force). The important thing, and you’ll see I can even bring the balance into it, is that again, a “microbiotic world” is not a static system -- i’ll try and illustrate with a biome, because same notion: let’s say a given year you have, idk, less rain than average; that’s going to affect vegetation growth, which in turn is going to affect animals. Herbivores will have less to eat and population numbers will be impacted, which will then impact carnivores. It’s a lot more complicated, but the general idea is basically that if you change a variable, the others will be affected like ripples. It’s a very strong system, very adaptable, but at some point if there’s too much stress put on it, it can collapse which is... not good. Something something balance. And I can’t not think about midi-chlorians, because they’d very much be part of microbiomes in the GFFA, and because even metaphorically you can’t really talk microbiome without talking symbiosis -- which was a theme touched upon in TPM, partly through the midi-chlorians. [Insert conspiracy board picture]

The Whills operating differently than ehr, regular beings works with what we knew of them already; it’s always risky trying to nail down specifics wrt the Whills, but until now it seemed to be more of a “another plane of existence” kind of deal rather than a “microbiotic world” one, so that’s interesting.

The controlling the universe bit, on the other hand that’s... mostly new. Though there was never much to learn about them, observers more than anything; incredibly powerful, operating on a whole other level of existence, ascended beings of a sort, pretty much beyond mortality, quite ineffable, and very much a narrative device. They were conceived as a framing device (the Journal of the Whills of the OT) and repurposed for the PT to stress the fact that Force ghostery was a Big Deal, and started as observers more than anything, an they aren’t known to have directly intervened in the GFFA. I can’t remember anything specifying that no, they don’t intervene, ever, and imo there’s grounds to speculate they’ve got nothing against indirect action. And they were always supposed to be incredibly powerful, with an understanding and knowledge of the Force pretty much beyond that of the Jedi / any Force tradition in the GFFA. I don’t think Lucas means control as in everything happens because of them and free will doesn’t exist and neither does happenstance. Going back to the biome/microbiome and the concept of a complex web of relationships between living things that, if too stressed, can collapse... if the concept of the Whills wasn’t to be completely reinvented, they could have easily fit in such a system, as entities both within and without, making sure that collapse doesn’t happen by influencing events.

Okay, next we learn they feed off the Force, and I always did love the “the Force is parasitic” kind of speculation, and I would so have been there for the version of the ST in which the Whills are some bad news eldritch beings, but... idk. It just doesn’t feel very Lucas. I do think his ST would have had its own identity and its share of “what you thought was wrong” moments, and it’s true the Whills were pretty obscure as far as lore go so not the hardest thing to retcon, but still that’s a pretty big departure. But again, it’s pretty open to interpretation -- is it a negative thing? or more of a natural kind of process? No way to know, at least until we’re told more.

Tbh I don’t think there’d be much to tell anyway; Lucas had barely begun working on the ST when he sold the franchise, and whatever his initial notes and outline covered, it would have gone through many changes. I mean, the Whills were initially supposed to be in the OT, then they were supposed to be in the PT, and I think that’s beautiful (and ironic) that apparently they were supposed to be in the ST at some point, but there’s about no way to know if they’d have made it to the final cut.

Thanks to the second quote, I can just hear a thousand voices screaming “lucas did have a master plan!!” and I wish that notion would have died off by now. That’s about the nicest thing I have to say on the second quote.

#star wars #meta #speculation #the whills #george lucas #the force #tag later #because i'm super busy til monday #and i want a bit of an actual break instead of a *write write wriiiiite* break #anyway #i'm frustrated i want to know more now damn it

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dankesdarkman · 7 years

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Fate and Economics: How FSN Is An Economical Commentary By The Spacebattles Forum

You know what’s normal? fate shitposting

You know what’s fun? fate economics shitposting

The beginning of this madness

Raguna Blade said:

You know, thinking on it, yeah that totally makes sense based on what I know of japanese work culture. Especially when mixed with the targeted audience of the FS/N games (otaku type) who were already on the outside edge of such culture and were totally open to hearing alternate idea's of what to do, it makes a clear amount of sense. Tying with the heroines then, it sort of follows that the various routes demonstrate how things work out for him. Following Saber, who basically embodies the Work your ass into dust ideal set's him up with an impossible goal for happiness. Saber has to Wait Forever, He has to work forever and if they can both keep it up without fucking it all up along the way, Glory GLory forever. Rin though? Rin's got a discrete clear goal. It requires hard work certainly, but it's not the end all be all. You need to work certainly, you need to work hard, the world is utterly vicious and will swallow you up (the clocktower, then, is true society I guess. None of those fake niceties, it's kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, real Chaos Route stuff there.) but there's plenty to do aside from it and happiness can coincide easily enough if you're willing to stick out that hand and work for it. And then yeah, Sakura is a full on rejection of that, and it makes sense that in her route there would be the most shit going horribly wrong is just in general kind of the most painful (as my recollection calls anyway). Shirous not only rejecting the dominant paradigm for work ethic, sorta, but he's doing to be with someone who is kind of coded as handicapped(? Recollections may be failing I apologize). Severe Trauma, violent violent freak outs (or just freak outs in general really), Sakura is a broken girl really. SO He not only rejects the idea that he has to work himself into dust for his ideals, Ideals he still technically has but needs to better consider and come to terms with as I understand it, But he makes use of that titanic drive to do something utterly radical and do what would make him truly happy even if it means rejecting basically the entire culture he's in. So that's neat. And Bludflag Imma need you to stop. I can legitimately go at this all day, but my surface level knowledge of the FS/N series is gonna out me as a clown sooner or later and I kinda need to dodge that. Assuming I haven't run face first into the clowning pie already.

frozenchicken said:

The Economic Simulationism of the Fate Franchise Part 1-Economic Mechanisms Many compliments have been offered to Nasu for the depth of his worldbuilding, but very few discuss the blatant economic commentary hidden within his works. In particular, the Masters and Servants of the 5th Holy Grail War* are each distinct commentaries on various Economic mechanisms and social systems. Mechanisms Spoiler: Large Corporations

The first of these mechanisms is one that is obvious even to those unfamiliar with economic theory. The Archer-class Servant Gilgamesh is a Great and Powerful Hero, stronger than any other in the series. He enacted his deeds long ago, and in addition to the power and wealth this initially brought him, he laid claim to the Gate of Babylon, a Capitalistic Means of Production that grows his strength from the work of others. In this current age he has thus become an unstoppable juggernaught who can throw his weight around anywhere in the Marketplace of Ideas. Obviously, Gilgamesh symbolises the tyrannical strength of a Corporation who has become too large, and managed to gain a Monopoly. Interestingly, we can see that his Villainy is linked to his growth and desire to expand, as he never possessed such horrific goals in pre-modern times, or when people had purposes that suited his goals. Interestingly, we know that Gilgamesh was at his most personable back in Ancient times when his friend Enkidu was present. This a clear commentary on the necessity of competition to cause healthier business structures. Spoiler: Rational Choice vs Behavioural Economics

One of the simplest and most basic Economic theorems-known as 'Rational Choice Theory'-is examined by the character of Medea ('Caster'). Rational Choice Theory is the assumption that all individuals within in an Economy will act within their own best interests, acting in order to maximise their profits and minimise their losses. This behavioural pattern is shown by Medea's first master, Atram Galiast. Atram is a skilled mage, backed by the Magus Association and equipped with a workshop full of human sacrifices that could massively empower Caster's Magic. With his support, she could easily achieve success in the Holy Grail War. She instead elects to kill him, release the sacrifices, and wander around without hope of survival. In this, we see that Nasu has chosen to support the converse theoreom that is Behavioural Economics. This is the psychology-based study of human behaviours that examines why humans embrace irrational behaviours that makes modelling human action in an economic model so difficult. Medea rejects her first master due to hatred of being bound, and yet embraces Souichirou Kuzuki for his kindness, in spite of the the tactical disadvantage his lack of magic brings. This demonstrates both how standard logical predictions of her actions fail, however once we understand her psychology better (such as the fact she would rather embrace temporary happiness with Kuzuki rather than seek the ideal perfection of a Holy Grail Wish), we become better able to understand her decisions. *Fate/Stay Night, Fate/Unlimited Blade Works, et al. ------------------------------------------------------------- AN: There, look at what you've all made me do. You crazy people. Also, I'm neither an Economist nor an expert on Fate lore, so I accept no blame for this being an illogical pile of absolute BS. We all knew that going in. I was planning to write up a section called 'Love Triangles as Symbolism for Competing Economic Social Systems', but it's 3am here, so I won't. I also didn't comment on all that 'Saberface' stuff, but that's because I know practically nothing about the 10 billion variations of Saber. If somebody wants to actually continue this, be my guest. I have no idea what my work ethic will be like in the morning. [Perk Activation: Sloth!] ....Seriously, feel free.

BlueHelix said:

The Symbology Of Saber In Economics (Or: I Really, Really, Hate Things Like Macroeconomics. Yorokobe, TehChron, frozenchicken, and Neroj. Feel free to critique, this is a half-assed attempt in between my analysis of the MotSR world, and developing my own quest idea.) One could put Saber into one of two possibilities: Keynesian economics, and a pure representation of capitalism. Let's begin with the Keynesian aspect. The ideal of Keynes is a planned economy, that "spends against the wind." Okay, let's break it down. This great plan, hatched by Uther Pendragon and Merlin, try to create something amazing, which is a symbol for the planners like those of Keynesian economics. And Keynes, for a large part, works in times of war, which basically is King Arthur's entire reign. The people unite, things go along to rationing and planning. In times of economic downturn, Keynes says to spend more and more, and to go into debt, which is a little similar to how Saber had to drain the resources of a village to go to war. And in times of economic surplus, one raises taxes and then pays those debts off, which shows in the prosperity of Camelot before it fell. In the perfect ideal of Keynes, also known as "Saber Lily," Keynes works perfectly, with it being a utopian ideal that whenever things go wrong, the government will intervene. On the other hand, Hayek in "The Journey To Serfdom," envisions that this so-called planned economy will fail, and sets the ground for the total corruption of Keynes' ideas, which finally takes the form of in terms of TYPE-MOON as the inversion of Saber: Saber Alter. In between the range of Saber Lily to Saber Alter, from Mysterious Heroine X, to Saber Lion, to Nero, would be the variability of how Keynes' ideas actually worked out in the long run. Secondly, one could look at Saber, and at an extension of her, Camelot, through the lens of free-market capitalism. Saber begins at her journey, and has a really successful start: pulling the Sword of Owed Victory, Caliburn, out of the stone. However, this is really the beginning of a bubble, as she can no longer be a normal person, but rather has to be a king, which is exacerbated by how so many people put faith into her (a false representation at that, as they believed for her to be a male, and put a false set of expectations upon Arturia, putting an enormous task that she, and most of her counterparts, were doomed to failure), and put some truly significant investments into a stock that was higher-valued than its true value (such as Guinevere. And look at how that turned out.) For the longest while though, just like the post-World War I American economy, Saber, buoyed by support from so many, managed to get through the countless wars and competition. However, like all bubbles must eventually do, they burst. And the indicator for this was the eventual plateau of Camelot and Merlin (a vital investor/co-founder) leaving for better pastures (woman troubles.) Then came the confrontation by Mordred, who took so many of her knights (investors) away, leading to a civil war (Black Tuesday and the Great Depression.) Which all went to hell, leading to Arturia making a deal with Alaya (a government bailout), which as we all know, generally fails (Hoover, am I right? And really, Roosevelt as well, because it was the Second World War that revived the American Economy), which leads to a major conflict (Holy Grail War=World Wars. You could fit an enormous amount of connections and parallels here, especially how the Fourth is similar the the First World War, and the Fifth is similar to the Second World War) in order to rejuvenate our stocks (Saber) through the major investments and turnarounds (the Wishes), which usually are misused, and we head back to a depression after a peak (Angra Mainyu and the Corrupted Grail.) This continues on ad infinitum, with the hope that things will be better for the individual, similar to the Fate Route (that one quote I forgot where they say something along the lines that one has to seek forever, and the other will have to wait forever. Halp Bludflag), and maybe, it will work out, similar to the Avalon Bonus Episode: "Welcome back, Shirou."

Raguna Blade said:

Hm. Maybe? Although there's another pretty obvious bit in play here. As far as systems go I can't say but well... Ilya represents Old Money. Like Flat out. Her family is wealthy, one of the ancient and old magus families, they're the ones who functionally MADE the grail wars and the systems that everyone has to deal with, or at least has lived through their transitions, and compared to everyone else, they have a flat overwhelming advantage that simply cannot be surmounted by playing the game as it's supposed to be done. If, as the Grail Wars was supposed to be (basically a big ole tournament of heroic spirits fighting each other) went to plan, basically nobody in the running has a chance at victory. Ignoring Girugamesh for a second here, nobody else was remotely in Hercs range. Flat out, his ass SHOULD have won. And had things functioned as intended, had the other players not basically gone out of their way to get around it, he would have smashed them to pieces. Which, well, is actually a lot how it works with old money anyways. When you have the best education, the best tools, the money, the connections, and all that, it takes something coming from out of left field entirely or a variety of smaller systems and groups rising up to actually topple that power. Now of course I don't know the actual status of the Einzburn family's wealth and a quick wiki walk shows me little to say their exact financial standings, but it has been made clear that as of present the head of the family is basically sinking everything they have into making damn sure that they win the grail war. That is, they want to continue to win the system that they created/had a hand in creating for as long as possible and...Well, past acts in the Grail War Series has proven them to be kind of breaking down. Their attempts to game the system fail spectacularly (See that Whole Avenger thing) and functionally spells their doom down the line as the blow back from basically breaking the system they created keeps coming back to haunt them (Mud of the Grail My guys), while attempts to hire an outside agitator ultimately proves to be damnably effective, in giving the reigns to someone who they do not have perfect control over, it also further destabilizes their control over the system that they are inherently tied to. In fact, let's talk about Mr The Ends Have to Justify The Means for A second, Since he is, in fact, Our Girl Ilya's Old man. At least, as far as it goes with alchemic golemy nonsense. Not quite sure about the blood lines there. But we see him, and Kiritsugu is unquestionably an outsider to the system the Einzburn's have up and running. Oh yes, he is a magus, no doubt, but in the view of this, His family is fallen disgraced and can't claim old money status because well...Dudes poor as shit. Relatively. But the thing is, due to his nature as an outsider, because he's taken the time to grow up outside of the system, to develop and learn things in it, he comes to a very specific view of the world. What it represents in an economic sense isn't important for this here, but the important thing is that because of this, and then later training he acquired in order to pass through the world that he was an outsider of, He was better able to navigate in ways that others in the system simply couldn't conceive of. This of course lead to his ASTOUNDING success at the 4th Grail War, but because again he was fundamentally an outsider, he saw how clearly the system was broken by the time he won and had a choice in the matter. The System can't support itself anylonger, not in the way that it exists presently. It can only be destroyed, and built upon. So what's this to do with Ilya? Well, again, Ilya is Old Money. She has the resources, the connections, the education, the knowledge all that. She can do a tremendous amount. She can, in fact, just about grant the wish of any given person she wishes given those connections. I mean hell, she's literally the Holy Grail. She's literally the system she's built to work within. And as such, compared to the Einzburn Family as a whole, she has unparalleled power to shift control and ultimately destroy the system as she see's fit. And ultimately, in every single route she is dead or dying. Fate See's the system crumble around her, leaving her functionally on life support. Unlimited BLade Works See's the system Kill her itself for it's self (as repped by the glorious golden boy himself), before ultimately self destructing anyway. But Heavens Feel? Well, that's about the only route she has Agency as Grail-chan, and in here we see her, as far as true route's go, Sacrifice herself for Shirou, Underpaid Everyman with Anarchic Leanings. The system is breaking down and dying, and rather than let everything collapse into the rubble and close off any kind of hope for the future (such as it were) she gave a part of herself to those who most wish to abandon what ultimately proved to be a failure of a system, effectively trusting them with the power and resources and such to go forth and create a better tomorrow and all that. Alternatively, It's the Old Money using their powers for good, fostering the growth of a new system that will inevitably replace it down the line, given her existence as a opposite to the Grail that Sakura Represents. Which, Just for the moment, As Black And White Grails, the two play off each other interestingly in that the Matous Are ALSO old money with deep ties to the system. But where Black Grail Sakura could probably be described as Old Money lording it's power around to ill effects, Ilya would essentially be the opposite. Of course, that is a bit beyond what I'm able to play with here.

BlueHelix said:

Okay, first off, someone compile the shitposts about Rin and distill it into something coherent. It is literally that easy, and I'm way too exhausted to do that right now. I think what you're going with here is that Sakura symbolizes those that are under the "capitalist boot" that look to communism as a better alternative, like how Sakura is hot for Shirou. And Shirou is definitely a communist, wanting to save everyone and all that. Actually, the Emiyas could represent the parts of Asia that turned to communism (spits to the side). Norikata Emiya, who went all in towards the pursuit of advancing himself (actually, most hardcore magi) would fit the bad part of free-market capitalism. Such as the big corporations stepping over the people, oil companies and factories polluting the earth, etc., he and ruthless magi represent those who cast others down for their goals of greed and similar actions. And he gets shot by his son after screwing things up royally. Make of that what you will. Now, I'm going to only talk about Natalia, Kiritsugu's sensei, briefly. I'm going to put her as the original capitalists that turned to communism. She has a Russian name, after all. So she represents Russia, who then taught Kiritsugu (other to-be communist states), all she knew (communism/Marxism). And then Kiritsugu has that dream/ideal of being a superhero, to save everyone (haha definitely communism there), which then, after Natalia's death (the reality of a communist state after the "glorious revolution"), turns him into a ruthless machine (Lenin in his first decade or so). However, after taking a job from a third party to win the Fourth Holy Grail War (World War II connection), he meets Irisviel and fathers Illya, significantly mellowing him out (New Economic Policy). At the end, however, the true vision of his dream (the failures of communism: Stalin. Great Leap Forward. Five Year Plans. et al.) is shown to be horrific, which then forces him to cast aside his dream. Then he passes down the ideal of his dream to Shirou. I think basically anyone could make an easy amount of connections between Shirou Emiya and communism. He wants to save the world. He fights against Gilgamesh (the 1% bourgeoisie lording over the poor proletariat), Kirei (the cruel rich finding joy in abusing the poor and others), and Dark Sakura (dark side of capitalism incarnate). He is the "imitation that surpasses the original" (refined "communism" that China, Vietnam, and others have that have outlasted Soviet Russia, the OG communist state, which could technically be Gilgamesh in the sense of being the "original," Natalia on account of being Russian, and Kiritsugu who passed the dream down). He creates an infinite amount of swords with his Reality Marble which then he distributes for the "greater good." And of course: Shirou's inherently self destructive unless something happens to change him. Archer anybody? Edit: I'm done with economic analysis for today. Need to get some rest for the next exams.

Mortifer said:

Okay, okay, how do I sound smart when I know nothing about economics... Uh... Well, the thing about Shinji is that he is, as per canon, actually rather knowledgeable about the theory behind Magecraft, He's just utterly incapable of using it. And his main reason for hating Sakura isn't that she can Magecraft, but that Sakura pitied him for it. He hated that. So, uh... I give up, I don't know economics. Maybe he represents something to do with putting in a lot of effort but not having anything to start with and might be commentary on how being born without advantages is nigh impossible a goal to overcome? I don't know, I don't economics, I should really just shut up before I say something objectively wrong and stupid-sounding. ...Actually, that's never stopped me before. Shinji's backstory friendship with Shirou is symbolic of how those who are disadvantaged in the system may embrace anarchism because the current system isn't working for them, and the two of them stopped being friends when Shirou found out Shinji hit Sakura, which is symbolic of... ...Something... Abusing flaws in a system to progress when the system itself isn't working for them? Criminal activity when legit methods don't work for them I don't know, I'm blanking on how to pretend I know what I'm talking about without getting political and even I refuse to touch the cancer known as politics. Maybe the relationship between Shinji and Sakura can be vaguely considered to be charity? Shinji doesn't care about Sakura, just the benefits he can get from her, but as soon as Shinji starts seeking too much from Sakura she cuts him off. By killing him. Yeah, if I keep following this train of thought I'm going to end up concluding that Sakura's killing Shinji is evidence that capitalism will eventually lead to The Purge so I'm gonna wait until someone else uses something I tossed around here in a way that makes sense and then I'll claim credit.

frozenchicken said:

The Economic Simulationism of the Fate Franchise Part 1-Economic Mechanisms Many compliments have been offered to Nasu for the depth of his worldbuilding, but very few discuss the blatant economic commentary hidden within his works. In particular, the Masters and Servants of the 5th Holy Grail War are each distinct commentaries on various Economic mechanisms and social systems. Mechanisms Spoiler: Large Corporations

One of the simplest and most basic Economic theorems-known as 'Rational Choice Theory'-is examined by the character of Medea ('Caster'). Rational Choice Theory is the assumption that all individuals within in an Economy will act within their own best interests, acting in order to maximise their profits and minimise their losses. This behavioural pattern is shown by Medea's first master, Atram Galiast. Atram is a skilled mage, backed by the Magus Association and equipped with a workshop full of human sacrifices that could massively empower Caster's Magic. With his support, she could easily achieve success in the Holy Grail War. She instead elects to kill him, release the sacrifices, and wander around without hope of survival. In this, we see that Nasu has chosen to support the converse theoreom that is Behavioural Economics. This is the psychology-based study of human behaviours that examines why humans embrace irrational behaviours that makes modelling human action in an economic model so difficult. Medea rejects her first master due to hatred of being bound, and yet embraces Souichirou Kuzuki for his kindness, in spite of the the tactical disadvantage his lack of magic brings. This demonstrates both how standard logical predictions of her actions fail, however once we understand her psychology better (such as the fact she would rather embrace temporary happiness with Kuzuki rather than seek the ideal perfection of a Holy Grail Wish), we become better able to understand her decisions. Part 2- Love Triangles as a Symbol of Competing Economic Models Whilst Financial mechanisms can greatly influence the Global Economy, they are all ultimately subordinate to the various social and Economic systems championed by various nations. This is displayed most clearly in the form of the Masters of the Holy Grail War, particularly Shirou and his assorted romantic interests. Spoiler: Advertising and PR is an important part of the Capitalist System

Tohsaka Rin is perhaps the simplest of the Masters to classify, as her connection to the Capitalist Model has many facets. She is an ambitious young Mage, who desires to work hard in the Holy Grail War so as to achieve success. This expresses itself as desire for a Wish, but also a desire to obtain the Wealth her family once had. Indeed, Nasu makes her connection to finance even more obvious by literally using valuable jewels to store and empower her magic. Moreover, her Capitalistic Philosophy is displayed by the way she not only uses her own efforts, but suborns other Economic systems and models into alliance with herself, and as seen in the UBW Route she even purchases The Means of Production (Saber) for herself and rides her accumulating asset-derived wealth to a successful circumstance. It is perhaps easy to think of Rin as having an unkind philosophy, but it is eventually shown that her pragmatic outlook is simply a way of creating a stable platform of success that she can use to enact her desired philanthropies. Spoiler: Anarchism as an Adaptively Symbiotic Social Construct

The character of Shirou began as a blank protagonist in the F/SN visual novel, who progressed into an Amnesiac anime protagonist with many love interests, multiple established 'Routes' of development and the ability to copy the weapons of others. It is therefore no surprise to say he represents a sort of Symbiotic Anarchy, that is extremely flexible, born from rejection of the ideals of previous systems (as represented by The Revolution), and yet willing to ally with other Economic systems that he believes will align well with him. Though his Anarchistic Philosophy is lacking obvious markers of a particular Economic Policy, he does maintain a clear ideological philosophy that represents itself as a rejection of the unphilanthropic mechanisms of the systems of the past, which is also displayed by an initial fondness for the philanthropic basis of Socialism (Sakura). However, as events continue, he finds himself strongly connected to the will of the People (Saber) and eventually comes into a symbiotic alliance with Rin (Anarcho-Capitalism). One of Shirou's best traits is his adaptability, as he later gains the ability to copy the Economic Mechanisms of other systems. However, he must be careful with his development lest he end up as something he despises (as symbolised by Archer). Spoiler: The Pitfalls of an Idealised Philanthropic EconomyTo build on the earlier analysis, the kind-hearted Sakura initially represents Socialism, and the worms within her are a metaphor for how such centralised power attracts corrupt interests who seek to gain control of everything. The routes where Shinji takes over show one vision of how this can end, as a decadent and corrupt Communist governmental system that replaces her, and exploits the efforts of the past, with his extreme incompetence symbolising the degradation of the state until an eventual collapse. Dark Sakura is the other end of the situation, where the self-interested powers seize control of the state mechanisms, maintaining a coherent Facist government at the cost of perverting the kind-natured original designs of the economic system. Spoiler: The Idealised Economy as represented by a Magical Girl

Illya represents the dream of a post-scarcity economy. She is artificial, shares a parent with Anarchism, her unaging youth shows just how far we are away from achieving that dream, and (much like Sakura) her potential as a Grail Vessel shows the hopeful, dream-like nature of their systems and how they are vulnerable to degradation/corruption. Herakles (and his 12 Labours) symbolises the impossible difficulties involved in achieving such a dream, but also the impossible strength of such a system if it were actually achieved. (Continued in the next post, as SB has an Image Limit).

frozenchicken said:

Part 3- Economic Analysis and The People Economic Systems of the Past Spoiler: Rejection of the Old and the Revolutions that followWe can see that Natalia rejects the old systems and turns away from them, but it is Kiritsugu who is the most interesting representation of this aspect, as he is The Revolution. He enlists the help of the Masses (as represented by Saber), and then proceeds to destroy all the existing power structures. His path is bloody and destructive, he fails to achieve his goals and in the end his victory only ends in disillusionment as he destroys the unrealistic hopes presented by the Holy Grail. However, in the wake of his passing, two new philosophies, Shirou (Anarchism) and Illya (Post-Scarcity) come to be. Spoiler: The limitations of Theory when contrasted against Pragmatism

The final aspect of Fate to be analysed is The Holy Grail, which represents the Grand Theories of Economists, with each wish being an idealised end state of various economic models-and the cursed nature shows they all eventually fail to predict how human agency alters events, causing the models to go off-track. Shirou (Anarchism) does not have a specific Wish in mind, but may react in a manner determined by circumstance. Saber has multiple desires, that may include allying herself to other economic systems, seeking a perfect state for capitalism to operate by, or perhaps even rejecting the truth of trickle-down economics and attempting to remove the elitist mechanisms of the capitalist state-as represented by herself. All the manifestations of the Grail that interact with a member of the Matou family seem to end badly for them, and though an ideal state could be found, most have given up hope of that. Special Thanks to Raguna, Blue Helix, Last Sanction and also to Karugus for coming up with that 'Invisible Hand' line. Oh, and also Mortifier whose lengthy contribution ended up...well, it's quality, not quantity that matters, right?

#Fate/stay night #fate stay night #fate/zero #fate zero #economics #saber #social commentary #type-moon #spacebattles

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chaos2go · 7 years

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Ramble about the Deku Tree and Alden >U

Okay. Finally getting around to finishing this ramble. Sorry it took so long ;w; I had one of those times of “wow I really want to do this //does everything else” orz.

Just as a reminder, the stuff below is following my ‘headcanon’ of junk. So please don’t take it literally XD And I apologize for length. This is way too long haha.

So I’ve pretty much stated in my LoH lore before that I believe the Deku Tree can create life. It’s never really stated what he can do so I just roll with it given it makes explaining stuff a lot easier. And he’s supposed to be a deity of sorts anyway. He is a ‘spirit of nature’ after all so why not organic things? His specialty beyond ‘simple’ plants are forest fairies (aka guardian fairies), koroks, and his newest/most proud creations the kokiri (the intended form of the koroks).

Now even if he is a deity, it had taken him quite a few decades if not centuries to ‘perfect’ every sentient creation. He is proud of them and he enjoys watching them live their lives. They bring about a harmony he loves. They are not savage but rather innocent creatures. They have bouts of anger but they never outright really try to hurt anyone beyond survival needs. These creatures are his children. In all due respect, he wants to protect them beyond just his magic because he understands that his magic isn’t unstoppable. In fact, his magic is mostly that relating to creation of life.

Given legends of the past, the Deku Tree is worried about something bad eventually happening in his forest. This means that his creations will die in bloodshed rather than natural causes (not to say they can’t die to monsters or creatures in the forest in general). Not to mention his control over the Lost Woods is only so much. It has a strange magic of its own and the way to navigate it seems to change from time to time. The only way to protect his children is to create something unlike them.

The legends of the past speak of heroes. This would be something he would believe in but there are other things that stood out too. Robots, machines, and even of swords that have spirits. A lot of his interest went into these ‘mechanical’ aspect but the resources to make a machine let alone an understanding on how to make one was just outright lost. A sword spirit however was more in his field given his magic. It sounded a lot more organic than trying to make a machine. He put many fairies to work to try and find information on creating a sword spirit but not a lot of information was returned. Still it was enough for him to make an attempt and a chance at extra protection for his organic creations.

It took a lot of tries to actually create Alden properly. Creating life was pretty simple in comparison to making a metal statue mostly made of magic live. For a time he gave up and thought about perhaps making a new race to protect the forest. But then what to give them? He didn’t want to create any sort of monsters or have the creature(s) turn into them. And what if they died for some reason? There were so many variables that he wanted a constant. It needed to have a little consistency like he did. Having a protector of the forest meant sacrificing some things that made organic life better in his opinion. Plus it couldn’t die as easily.

A few more tries were given with more success but nothing solid. At times he’d end up with metal lumps, other times a spirit that only survived until the gem collapsed, or just a spirit that died for no reason. Eventually Alden was created using pieces of these spirits (in terms of metal body, not gems) and there is a celebratory moment. However the moment is somewhat shattered when he realizes Alden isn’t anywhere near what he expected. The spirit is outright confused upon creation and doesn’t know what to do. Even though he’s seen others have this problem, the fact Alden doesn’t shatter right away brings some pain. He’s lifeless compared to the organic creations. There is little will beyond asking for instruction on what to do. This really makes the Deku Tree regret his decision. Thankfully the fairies (and a few koroks) step in on the Deku Tree’s silence to make Alden start to ‘live’.

The Deku Tree gives Alden a simple purpose of protecting the forest before instructing him to meet the kokiri he will be protecting. Given Alden is just outright do and ask only simple -if not stupid- questions, he just pops out and gets scared by the reaction he got. Just backlash. He was told not to fight them yet he got rocks and sticks thrown at him. His instinct did want him to fight back. Instead he retreats and asks what he did wrong. The fact Alden couldn’t come up with making a disguise is actually somewhat troubling for the Deku Tree despite there being some promise given how he reacted to the event. There was a little hurt in how he acted which was a good sign of life.

From there the Deku Tree instructs him to make a disguise to fit in amongst the kokiri. The actual disguise takes a lot of work and quite a few attempts before he fits in enough for the kokiri to let him be. He actually had to observe -alongside getting feedback from his partner fairy- and choose. Thing is, even with a disguise to fit in he still lacked basic things others could do. He couldn’t emulate eating, sleeping, he ‘cheated’ at games, etc. He had to learn how to be a child and fitting in became a priority. In all honesty, it was part of his purpose whether or not it was intended.

Alden’s frustrations with fitting in became apparent to most in the forest. It actually became a bit of a joke and he didn’t mind playing to it to fit in. However being laughed at still stung him. Thankfully during his existence thus far the Deku Tree tried to teach him through stories. It was a thing he did every night with Alden when the kokiri were sleeping in order for Alden to learn more about the world he was in, the kokiri, and just how to ‘live’. Stories of heroes and such became Alden’s favorite as he could relate to them more because of what he is. Every once in a while a kokiri came too which meant Alden could observe a bit.

All in all, this was a big effort. More than the Deku Tree wanted to do. He honestly felt awful for creating Alden to be so lifeless at first but was so hopeful with how much he was growing. Even if he was a bully from time to time, he still was trying to live. Still he was a spirit with little soul. Alden wasn’t completely stupid or extremely smart. And he didn’t have a large range of emotions but rather a collection of emulations and reactions he understood for certain situations. He could be angry at the right moments or emulate happy at the right moments. Very little things were genuine unless it involved his purpose, a wrongdoing, or a chance to show off his powers. Really the only plus of anything there too was his speed, magical abilities (at the time due to the Tree’s power), and his skill with the sword. Unlike most others (including most people he’s met), the Deku Tree sees that Alden is mostly a machine of reaction at the proper times. And honestly, that is how I see him too. A very well studied one that goes to extremes. But back to the tree who wishes he could make Alden ‘real’.

The arrival of Link to the forest didn’t help Alden grow at all either. Especially when the Deku Tree could observe how little Alden changed. He was confused by the baby (as were many kokiri) but Link just had an understanding of everything so much easier. For a time, Alden even distanced himself from the kokiri as Link was growing because he couldn’t understand what the heck a baby was or what it was doing. The baby was annoying as far as he was concerned and he didn’t want to break Link either. He was more fragile than a fairy and cried every time he was forced to interact. If anything, he only got more confused on Link growing up. Despite knowing how Link got there and bringing him to the Deku Tree in the first place, Alden never once mentions this to Link. And in fact, he ends up being on of Link’s bullies given he chooses to be with Mido due to Mido’s status as leader.

Upon Ganondorf doing his crap in OoT, he honestly hoped that Alden would have died in that attack in some respect. Alden wasn’t a strong spirit but rather a mostly innocent one that had a hard time understanding how to ‘live’. Destroying him would be a good thing in that respect. At the same time, Alden was a great creation and he didn’t want him to die. Alden was dutiful and did everything in his power despite being bested. Alden chose to defend when he clearly could have easily stayed out of the situation. The lack of a real choice and the obligation to do his purpose is what could have saved the Deku Tree. Ultimately it would help shape Alden further though.

Skipping through Alden blaming Link for the Deku Tree’s death, revealing himself to Link, and outright continuing bullying, we get through the Forest Temple. The sprout emerges from the ground and isn’t exactly the same one as before. However it still carries some regret about Alden. It was partly saddened to see Alden still existed but glad to see he was still trying to do what he was created for. There was a sense of relief that he at least did one thing right with Alden. On the other hand, Alden didn’t consider the new sprout to be the same tree but wanted to listen.

The sprout specifically tells him that the old tree wanted to give him new purpose. Those being 1- Continue to protect the forest to the best of your abilities, 2- Do what you can to help Link, and 3 - Live your own life. The last one having the most emphasis which only confuses Alden. His entire ‘life’ has been fitting in and protecting the forest. So really he puts the second job as his priority. And that only leads to more issues given he is set on his duties and he is a spirit of reaction.

But that about sums it up without jumping to other games or LoH. Sorry it turned into more about the overall arc of his story. But eeeeh lemme just state this. There is a deep regret the Deku Tree carries about Alden. Alden however is a creature of reaction and learned behaviors rather than his own being. Given enough time, he would assimilate into another culture. Fitting in is his ‘life’ and little things do confuse him. Why a certain way of dressing? Why are some actions more preferred than others? He has many questions but refuses to ask them and instead just tries things in hopes of positive reactions when able. Otherwise he will observe unless he feels brave. As I said, Alden isn’t smart or dumb. He reacts. His entire character is about proper reaction rather than being him. His entire emotional range goes from extremely angry to extremely happy or extremely sad in a matter of seconds. There is very little inbetween so it can be as if he is hyperactive. The only time he tends to sound mature is when he feels there is nothing to react to and can state what he wants. It is confounding to him to be outside of the forest until he realizes that children can get away with certain things. He uses his childlike nature to Link’s advantage when the adult Link cannot do things. Fi has her smarts, Ghira has his emotions, Alden has a mix in terms of just reacting in the proper way at the proper time (which can be messed up!). So more or less he understands to an extent when to be happy, sad, etc.

To quickly jump to another games since I rambled about the rest, Alden’s second purpose becomes a major focus for the MM game. Especially since he becomes even weaker. Alden’s focus is broken to a point and he has a loss of powers. At times he is a hindrance to Link. At the same time, it also allowed him to speak his mind more freely. If anything he sounds a tad more intelligent than before if not emotional. He thinks about things and realizes why people might enjoy it. He’s seen a lot more in life than he ever would have in the forest. Being lost in these thoughts become is downfall however. There are joys/fears/etc. he’ll never understand and it kinda scares him a little. And it scares him even more that he won’t be able to protect Link from it. In the end he fulfillshis third purpose before he is ultimately destroyed. He spends time with Linkdespite time travel and enjoys things he hasn’t before. And as an upgraded sword, he can continue to protect Link. But that’s for that version.

Come LoH, the Deku Tree gets to meet Alden once again. There isgreat disappointment in knowing that Alden was left behind by Link but also ahappiness in seeing that he’s trying so hard to help someone else. Alden has chosen to continue his job and his reactions give more ‘life’. He seesKalla has rubbed off on him and he’s actually happy to hear Alden reject himwhen he states that he should stay. Still Alden is a lost cause as he seesgiven he is so strung to his purpose that living will never really happen. He’s still attaching himself to a forest dweller despite wanting to be outside of the forest. And the only reason Alden states he wants to stay outside is to protect the forest. Sothere will always be a loss for this magical life he created rather thanbiological. Little does the Deku Tree understand though that if Alden was to stay, he’d try to leave. Alden does want to protect the forest but understanding others to some degree might help. He in no way wants to be like them (he believes himself a kokiri after all) but it means a possible means to an end if he has to fight them.

#tiffy stfu #long post #alden #ramble #oc ramble

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bublp0pr · 7 years

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UT ramblings. undyne + monster politics

most people don’t seem to appreciate undyne the same way that they appreciate sans or pap etc. (I could go on for hours about how much the UT fanbase is far far faaar to focussed on sans but that’s not really relevant...) So i just wanted to bring up all the facts because most people don’t really realise that ALL the main characters of undertale are extremely 3 dimensional with backstory and depth and purpose and motivations and relationships and dreams. A lot of stories/art i see of undyne just focusses on her aggression, her over-enthusiasm or her relationship with Alphys, but she’s more than just some trope.

So i guess i’ll just start with the generic stuff and get more detailed as i go.

Hope for monsterkind

Undyne is a monster (gasp! never would’ve guessed that one would ya?) and so she is trapped underground with the rest of monster-kind underground. The sneaky thing about Undertale is it’s very good at giving us absolutely noooo reference points to infer the time of various events in it’s history (damn you Toby Fox for your sneakily vague ways) but the common conception i’ve encountered within the fanbase is that she was either born underground and as such has never seen the surface or that atleast she was really young when it happened.

Now this is important: to her getting out of the underground isn’t a lamenting about what has been lost, because she doesn’t have many/any memories to hold it towards, they’re all just stories to her. What drives her wanting to leave is little to nothing about leaving herself but providing hope for the monsters of the underground.

Backstory history stuff:

Monsters you can talk to from all corners of the game make it clear that they are actually struggling a great deal because of their situation with problems such as dreariness, overcrowding and lack of sunlight. They say that most make jokes and such to try and ignore the fact that there’s a lot to make them lose hope. Hope in leaving, hope in their situation in life improving, hope for there being any purpose to monster-kind existing at all.

A part of this despair is mostly from their royal dramas (namely Chara’s plan backfiring :P).

The loss of their royalty’s future heir, Asriel, to humans of all people after trying to make things right for them re-iterates just how much they are, even in this state, completely at their mercy. It emphasises how futile fighting it is - even if they do make it to the surface. Not to mention how knowing that their leader has lost his next-in-line would affect political confidence of the kingdom.

What makes matters worse is that Chara (yes. I’m using the true name to refer to the first human, it makes logical sense within lore to select the name most endorsed by the primary material. deal with it) was also a variable within the state of the people at this time. With the arrival of this human and the king and queens actions at making peace and welcoming them, Chara likely symbolised the first step in making peace with humanity - proof that monsters and humans could co-exist in harmony. With their death coupled with the involvement of humanity with Asriel’s actions to peacefully mourn them, it crushes all the ideals that came with that. Asgore, in response to the deaths, declared war on humans which would set the ground for monster-kind’s bias against them.

We all know how Toriel responds to Asgore’s actions. As people who play the game, the idea of her fleeing to the ruins and locking herself there makes perfect sense, but to everyone else at the time all they know is that their queen just disappeared one day. There might’ve been rumours about how she had been arguing with Asgore, how their marriage had begun to fail after losing their child, but the general public would just see it as their weakened royalty becoming even more so at their hour of need.

(ok... back to what i was actually talking about)

Anyway, Undyne is absolutely crucial to stopping them from losing hope. To put it simply, she inspires them. In a time when there are hundreds of reasons to hate life, and the only ones doing ok are either too ignorant to understand the problem or are simply pretending that they don’t exist, she is the figurehead for change. She takes action. Unlike their king who, for as a kind a person as he is, feels reluctant to take an assertive stance on the attack (opting instead to just sit around and wait for the humans to come to him, hoping they never will, like toriel put it) Undyne provides ways that monsters can be helpful NOW.

Many call her the hero of the Underground - and for good reason. Her passion is infectious, it inspires others and for the first time in a long time (again, don’t know how long though because TIMELINE). She makes them think it’s actually possible, like a future on the surface is within their reach. Afterall, Asgore already has 6 souls, all they need is one. She makes it sound so simple, so possible. It doesn’t hurt that she’s the most capable fighter the Underground’s seen in a while either (excluding Asgore obviously) which makes them feel powerful for once.

In short, Undyne is single handedly bringing momentum and hope back to the underground. Because of her the Underground at last is in a position to take back the surface and they feel empowered. And she’s not bearing it alone either, she’s bringing every lasts monster who wants to help with her, inspiring the masses to action.

What drives her (sorta linked to last one)

From a phone calls you can make in the echo flower rooms, we learn that she has heard the personal wishes of many monsters made to echo flowers all united in their desire to leave this place. I spoke a bit before about how it’s unlikely she has much experience with the surface herself. She’s doing this because she cares about others. What drives her is the dreams and determination of everyone she knows and cares about.

How awesome is that?! I mean, that concept alone should make her one of the most respected people in the game. Compared to Sans (and i’m not hating here, Sans is awesome too) who fights you because there’s absolutely no other options left, to let you pass would be to mean everything be deleted forever (i mean, how could you NOT fight at that point, he had nothing to lose); Undyne’s reasoning requires commitment, passion, energy, devotion! This isn’t something she had to do. This is the accumulation of all her compassion for the monsters and her bravery to stand for change. She’s doing this for the ones she loves, the ones she hates, EVERYONE. She’s doing this for her people, for Asgore, for the sake of monsterkind! NGGGAHHHHHH!!!! (sorry, got a bit carried away there)

Representing the people

Something that really resonates in the undertones of the game through her story arc is the responsibility she bears. She is the representative of the people, the hero, a role model to the younger ones and a saviour for the older ones. Everyone is following her because of her passion to the cause. She needs to be strong, to show just how committed she is.

Something that really shows in her character is how much she cares about the people who depend in her. She sees herself as someone who needs to meet that standard. Fortunately for her, she’s basically perfect for the job, being driven is who she is. She loves it, she loves the stakes, the fighting. The energy she brings to the table comes naturally for her, she’s a natural leader. Truly, she just bears the expectations of monsters like a real champ.

For an added bonus though, calling her in the room behind the waterfall shows she takes breaks too :) “When i feel like relaxing, i always take a break there. Which means NEVER!! I hate relaxing! I LOVE being ANGRY and STRESSED OUT! Just kidding.”

I like to think that Monster Kid kinda is an analogy for all the people she’s fighting for in the game. She’s his role model, his idol. He wants to be just like her when he grows up, even though he has no arms. The kid has no arms!!! And she still makes him feel like he can take on the world! Isn’t that just so inspiring? And what does she do when he gets in the way of fighting you? She takes him aside to protect him. She put the safety of a kid she barely knows before the epic fight she’s been dreaming of, the final showdown that will finish this once and for all. A lesser person would have just dismissed him and fought you anyway. But she’s not like that. Because she CARES. Extending the analogy even further, MK is an innocent, he just wants to be friends with you. And this confuses and annoys Undyne. Because everything she does is for them. Don’t they WANT her to break the barrier? That’s where a lot of her anger comes in about your ”goody two shoes schtick” in her fight.

Can i also point out that when you kill monsters in Snowdin, she remembers them? She lists them by name, defends their intentions and fights you to avenge them? How noble is that!

Determination!?

I’m still always flabbergasted that she actually USED determination. I mean, not even sans did that. Her cause meant so much to her, she had with her the support and hearts and dreams of so many people that it literally filled her with determination. For the sake of all monsters she refuses to even DIE! And when she starts to melt, her form physically incapable of handling the powers she’s meddling with, SHE STILL PRESSES ON. TO THE VERY LAST ATTACK SHE FIGHTS!

Just... just take a moment to think that through.

THERE’S MORE TO HER THAN BEING A HERO

I can see why people find her drive very two dimensional. Even with all the caring stuff behind it, which makes it more meaningful, she still comes off as very cliche protagonist. Firstly, she’s supposed to be like that, it’s ironic because she’s like a real life anime hero just like she idolises in Alphys’ um... *cough* history books. She’s sincere, it’s a fundamental character trait. She’s true to her convictions and when she wants something she takes action, some people are just like that. She has passion and she refuses to hold that back. Cooking with her definitely shows you that haha.

But she wasn’t always so popular. Can i remind people that, in true anime fashion, she ALSO has a tragic backstory that she refuses to let hold her back??? It’s actually mentioned a few times in the game but you never really notice it. Undyne is scary. Under any other circumstance, where she didn’t stand up to take the role and there was reason to admire her, everyone was too scared to be around her. That energy that everyone finds endearing made people frightened. She didn’t have many friends growing up because all the kids were to scared of the overly-aggressive fish monster. She says she doesn’t care about popular people to papyrus. It’s because, if things hadn’t turned out like they did, she too would be unpopular. She was alone, a misfit, strong and weird.

For me that really changes how i look at her. When she fights for the underground, she’s fighting for the people that used to be afraid of her. Her energy, the thing that left her ostracised, is the hope of everyone. I like to also reflect on how nice it is that she can fill this role too, it sounds just like a TV show for the strange one to rise up and be all that is good regardless. It’s also nice how she isn’t resentful of it. She still cares about the people as a whole and about each and every individual that makes it up.

Okay, now the alphys stuff

So i find the way that her and Alphys meet so enjoyable to look into. It’s heavily implied that Alphys has at times been suicidal (and there’s even suggestion to her taking this action in some of the neutral routes). Undyne meets her at the edge of a waterfall into the abyss and listens to talk to her for hours about the theories about what’s at the bottom. This is SO consistent with her character, of course she’d be the perfect kind of person to talk to when Alphys is like that. Undyne’s kindness shines through again. Also, the way that Alphys can go on for hours is just as driven as Undyne’s drive for other things. The parallels are what she admires about her.

It’s also cute the little things you notice that suggest she’s got a crush too. Normally Alphys’ side of the affection is what we notice but the tiny things... Like how a monster at Grillby’s knew undyne was off limits because she had a crush on someone. And how undyne would call alphys about the weather when there literally isn’t a sky. And how undyne corrected her statements about no nerds being allowed in her room. The water cooler being added in also shows that Undyne visited the lab often enough for Alphys to get concerned and install it - Undyne, a fish used to cold wet climates, literally went to a place filled with dry fiery rocks to see her.

Another thing i find fascinating about the pair is that they are quite similar actually. Both feel the need to bear responsibility in freeing monsters from the underground and face the pressure of wanting to meet people expectations. In a way, Alphys creating Mettaton has provided a similar effort to monster’s attitude as Undyne. Alphys researching determination is her way of fighting the barrier the same way Undyne leading the royal guard is. The difference obviously comes in the degree of confidence the two have, Alphys is clearly very insecure and her failure with the DT experiments only make it worse for her.

Papyrus

Sigh, do i even need to explain this one? She admired Pap’s dedication, respects him as a person and fighter and doesn’t let him join the royal guard because she worries about him which is really sweet. Instead of just flat out saying no, she even goes the extra mile of encouraging his other hobbies and entertaining his dreams. They’re good friends.

Random extras

She trained under Asgore and respects him a lot (but we already know all about that if from the cooking date). She was committed to fighting him again and again until she could finally beat him and pacifist Frisk reminds her of him. Sweet.

She plays piano. Can i point out that her fight is one of the few with straight up piano in the soundtrack? It’s a cool little easter egg and i can’t help but imagine her practising her battle music. It also ties in with the ancient artefact puzzle, which Undyne funnily enough made (a nice little extra :) )

#i don't know when to stop #undertale #undyne #deserves more respect #I basically just wrote and essay #I'm such a big fan it's not funny anymore #undertale trash

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