#also why the FUCK was roy arguing for working with malcolm too when he knows fully well how he manipulated & still is lying to thea
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they saw laurel arguing for working with malcolm AND still didn't tell her that he did after all kill sara?????
i forgot just how fucked up (& just plain bad) that whole arc was aaaaaaa
#going insane rewatching s3#also why the FUCK was roy arguing for working with malcolm too when he knows fully well how he manipulated & still is lying to thea#felicity playing the moral compass is. weird. would have come out much stronger if it were laurel#that's not even going into how it makes exactly 0 sense that oliver did not interact with laurel at ALL both before and after he came back#this show is so bad for my mental health#anti arrow#*
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Heya of you were to give Arrow a do over what would you do differently and what would you keep the same? Also would you rewrite Sara because lord knows I would.
Well, it’s the cliché, I loved Arrow S1, otherwise, I only liked parts of S2 - everything else was: “…shit, I could’ve done better.”.
Big thing’s I’d change right off the bat:
Sara’s existence: The only redeeming quality she has about her is Laurel’s love for her and the kindness she brings out from Nyssa - but, of course, even without Sara, Nyssa still would’ve met Laurel and they would’ve bonded over their fathers. Honestly, if Laurel never forgave Sara and Sara never showed she was sorry in Arrow100, I would never care for Sara - ever. There are two things I would do with Sara: 1) Erase her entire existence.2) Have her completely resent Oliver and profusely apologize to Laurel.The character we see of Sara on “Legends of Tomorrow” (S1) is completely different from the Sara we saw on “Arrow”, and one can argue the pit changed many things about her. Of course, that’s for a different post.
Felicity’s role on Arrow: Felicity honestly deserves better than to be Oliver’s sexcretary, eye candy for the male gaze, or a self-insert character for teen-girls/middle-aged-women. I would have her work with Lyla in ARGUS, where she is mentored by Wendy/Barbra, and she is only with Arrow as a “side-hobby”. I loved Felicity’s one-sided affection for Oliver, and I want her to find herself and realize she doesn’t need Oliver - instead, when Ray’s accident happens, she is consumed by grief and looks desperately for him. When Oliver and Laurel return from Ivy Town, Felicity seeks Oliver’s help, as ARGUS refuses to help her with her vendetta. Waller says Felicity’s too “emotional”, but Felicity argues her emotions will help her find Ray. I want more for her than Arrow has offered Felicity.
Oliver’s “darkness”: Honestly, this should’ve stopped the moment Oliver beat Slade, lbrh. Even in most recent episodes, Oliver’s greatest fear is Laurel, the person who has always saw the best in him, would see him as a monster, along with the rest of the women in his life: Moira and Thea. It’s in S2 that Oliver discovers the women in his life still love him: >Laurel still does not see him as a monster, instead she praises him, thanks him, and runs to him to comfort him. >Moira even shakes her head and says she always knew, and that she is so proud of him. >When Oliver tells Thea in S3, Thea accepts him whole-heartedly and gives him a hug. Oliver’s darkness shouldn’t be darkness, just bad habits that any human being would have as a natural response to trauma and about undoing those habits - Green Arrow’s focus should be where it was in S1: Humanity.
The big bad of S3: It should’ve been China White. Honestly, you got Katanna, Maseo, the flashbacks in China - it should’ve been China White, about disbanding the Triads on the docks. Hell, you could still introduce Emiko if you want, who gets close to Speedy and they are BFF’s. Emiko, Sin, and Roy are all vigilantes and Thea runs the night club who employs the three part time (total omg this belongs as a comment of it’s own)
The big bad of S4: Now this should be the Bratva, not Prometheus, and another gang - some say it’s a race war. The focus of this season would be gang violence.The Bratva hire a bunch of small time villains to take out their competitors, but to no avail because Oliver is constantly thwarting their attempts. It’s then that the head of Bratva comes in for a “visit”. Who is this guy? I don’t know, you tell me. I would love to have a present day Anatoly who was like, “Why the fuck did you kill your own brothers, Oliver, my men? You must pay up for your actions.” Shit like that, don’t just throw it under the rug, no matter what ‘mafia’ you are in. It’s a big focus on certain characters
The big bad of S5: The Dark Archer and HIVE. Of course, since Colin is on another show, Malcolm, being called The Magician, asks Ra’s to find a way to switch out his son’s body (wayy early on) to another’s. Ra’s connects Malcolm to people who practice dark arts (such as Vandal Savage), who helps Malcolm achieve this thought-to-be-impossible feat. In another person’s body, Tommy swoons Laurel again, asks Oliver questions that only Tommy has asked him, and tries to be Thea’s brother (well technically he is, but…). Tommy fucks up Oliver’s entire life as revenge for what he took from him. “It should’ve been you who died in that building.”
League of Assassins:A constant threat to the world, but they mind their own business and stay in the shadows.
Nitpicky things I would change on Arrow:
Shado’s sister Mei: I really wish they would’ve used her more effectively, I feel like it’s strange that they are from the same family, but she isn’t a complete badass like her sister and dad? I mean, come on, would love the total Ghost Fox Killer thing happening for her.
ARGUS: Honestly, they deserve a show of their own, with Amanda Waller, Lyla, Digg, and Felicity. They all deserve better than the romcom the show has become and destroyed their characters in the process.
Never have Carly and Diggle together.
Dyla: Would drag out Digg and Lyla’s reunion, have them take time to getting married, give them a season or two and stay with the whole “reason why they decided to get back together is baby Sara”. Maybe even baby Sara wasn’t enough, it was the return of Andy Diggle.
Baby Sara: Also, I wouldn’t be a stupid fucking idiot and erase baby Sara, I would’ve just had it where Digg and Lyla never divorced because they had a baby boy who isn’t Oliver’s son in comicverse.
Andy Diggle: Give him a good reason to join Darhk’s side and remain there, give them an episode of flashbacks between just the two of them, another episode of flashbacks for their families, and another episode of just Andy and why he decides to be on Darhk’s side. John never knows or understands Andy, but we do - because even we agree with Andy that this world isn’t good. Have Andy be confronted by Carly, who finds herself in danger and Andy coming to her rescue, her saying, “It’s always been you, you’ve always been here.” Him saying, “I never left.” AJ never meeting his dad. I need angsty shit, all right.
Deadshot: I just need more of him since he survived the accident, alright, I need a lot more than just one scene.
Sin: I want more of her, I want her to be there for Thea, I want her to be in on everything and not needing to be the center of attention like another person.
Quentin Lance: I am so sad that they are putting him through his alcoholism again. Of course, I know that Laurel is his rock, but if you aren’t going to give him his rock back, throw him a fucking life raft.
Dinah Drake: I would love for Laurel’s mother to know of Laurel’s ‘potential’. Dinah is a scientist, who knew that Laurel has a special meta-human gene because they’ve been doing research for so long now. The reason Dinah left wasn’t because of guilt, but because she didn’t have the energy or time to deal with a breaking family when she was on the breakthrough of science. Dinah works alongside Caitlin Snow’s mom and on the side with Harrison Wells.
Wildcat:Retired vigilante who comes back after seeing Laurel’s fire, and protects his side of town. Is his own agency and continues to spar and train Laurel - also coaches the team of misfits with Laurel (Roy, Thea, Emiko and Sin).
Evelyn Sharp:Inspired by Black Canary, is friends with Sin from college, and joins the team of misfits in protecting the city in S3. Reckless, she leads the criminals back to her house and they kill her parents and siblings, leading her to a life of crime and anger. Mentions her friend Artemis as another person who “taught her a fair amount” of fighting skills.
Wild Dog:Trained by Wildcat after losing both his sons to gang violence in S3, René is so angry with what the world has taken from him. The mystery is solved when René finds out his son was in the gang and was trying to initiate his little brother into the gang. René is completely in shock, because he spent all his life telling his sons not to make the mistakes he did (joining a gang, selling drugs, and “living a bad life”). When René tells his ex-wife what happened to their sons, she blames him and leaves him. René hangs up his mask, completely ridden with guilt and despair.
Curtis Holt:Recruited by Ray Palmer for his amazing abilities in S3, they team up to be their own ‘super-heroes’. Curtis was a very serious guy until he met Ray who helped him to ‘lighten up’. Curtis says without Ray, he would’ve joined HIVE, and is thankful for him. When Ray disappears, Curtis teams up with Felicity to find Ray, and is the one keeping Palmer Tech alive in both their absences. HIVE wanted to make Curtis suffer for rejecting their invitation and had Curtis’s husband and the child they had just adopted that day tortured and killed, recorded it, and sent it to Curtis. Consumed with vengeance, Curtis dawns the name Mr. Terrific, what his adopted child would call him when they visited.
Rory Regan:Joins Curtis in his endeavors to avenge his family as HIVE is responsible for the death of his city, also hates Felicity to death and refuses to work with her, speak to her, or acknowledge her presence in the room.
Tina Boland: A secret agent trying to figure out what HIVE is up to, joins their team to track them down.
etc.
There’s a lot more nitpicky things, but those are just the more bigger ones lol
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Why the 5x09 Flashbacks were Bullshit
(For convenience I will call the people from the List List-person/List-people. Also, I wrote this before 5x17 aired, in case anyone wants to use arguments from that episode.)
When I heard that the villain of season 5 was supposed to be the child of someone the Hood killed in season 1 I thought that would be interesting. Actions having unintended consequences, etc. Not that Oliver doesn't usually think about those, but you can't plan for every possibility, after all.
What I expected was the child of one of the men hired by a List-person, since those are the majority of people killed by Oliver. Men who were criminals by choice or because they were down on their luck. Men who might be classified as mercenaries, being payed to do the dirty work, with varying moralities. Men who, ultimately, were small gears in a bigger machine. Unimportant men, who never had a name in the show. That would have made sense. That would have been interesting. That would have been a chance to show that even the criminals are three dimensional people, like they did with Deadshot.
It also would have worked without completely ret-conning the Hood's MO.
Instead we have the flashbacks we got in 5x09, which I think are utter bullshit created to refit season 1 to season 5, rather than write season 5 to fit in with established canon.
(Because long meta is long the rest is under a cut. Go to the last paragraph for a tl,dr.)
The Hood's MO, to summarize what I wrote in another meta that I can't remember if I posted it already, was to choose a List-person. Chances are that List-person is at that point in time a danger to someone or fucking someone over (Martin Somers; the guy Oliver wanted to target in 1x06 but didn't because Royal Flush Gang). Otherwise it's someone who's been fucking people over without being arrested, taken to court or otherwise face the consequences for their crimes. (Unrelated note, I want to write about getting their just desserts, which brought me to thinking that Oliver and Trickster/Loki/Gabriel from Supernatural might get on like a house on fire. Thank you, brain.) He goes to that List-person and asks them not-so-politely to undo whatever they have done (return stolen money/goods, confess to crime, repair/replace the broken things in apartment buildings, etc). When they don't, which is often but not always, he returns and makes them, or hacks them, or steals from them, or stops them.
The Hood is not nice about what he is doing and violence and intimidation are his main tools, but the List-people have been screwing people over, including injury and death, for 5-10 years without consequences. Some of them use violence and intimidation themselves. Asking nicely is not going to do shit. Going to the police likely is not going to do shit either, considering Oliver's version of the List is FIVE FUCKING YEARS OLD. So, yeah, the Hood has hurt and killed people, because that is how you keep yourself alive if you are a vigilante going up against people who hire other people to shoot at you. Especially if you're doing it mostly alone. Still, he mostly resorted to incapacitating his opponents. Incidentally, I'd bet that max 10% of the criminals he encountered as the Hood are dead. I'm guessing it's much lower.
(I can count on one hand the number of people Oliver killed in s1 who weren't at that specific time trying to hurt/kill him or someone else. The only ones I can think of right now are the third kidnapper from 1x01 and the not-the-Count psychiatrist in 1x19. Even those were trying to kill him just minutes before and were a potential future danger, considering they didn't flinch from killing. Neither of them was on the List.)
You know what the Hood didn't do? Go back the second time, kill all the hired muscle, confront the List-person and kill them while they're defenseless. You know, the thing he supposedly did with Justin Claybourne.
To collect some proof I went on the Arrow Wiki, because I do not have the time to re-watch whole seasons for stuff like this, and looked at the article about the List. Of those listed who had an appearance on the show or in the tie-in comics six died during an altercation with the Hood: Guillermo Barrera (1x16, hired to kill Merlyn), Justin Claybourne (wasn't mentioned before s5), Ted Daniels (tie-in comics), Ted Gaynor (1x11, Diggle's army buddy, robbed armored trucks), Leo Müller (1x05, arms dealer), Justin Whicker (tie-in comics).
Any other known-to-be-dead List-people (10 if I counted right) died by someone else's hand. Malcolm Merlyn's, for example.
So, let's look a bit more closely at those deaths:
We've all recently seen what happened with Justin Claybourne, I'm not going to rehash that.
Leo Müller died off-screen, if he died at all. We only see Oliver aiming at Müller, before it fades to black and we hear Müller scream and the arrow fly. He might kill him, he might only injure him. Until I saw him as deceased in that article I assumed he was still alive in some prison. According to the wiki he isn't mentioned again chronologically after 1x05. Also, the Hood is a pragmatist. An international arms dealer is much more useful alive and in the hands of something like FBI, Interpol, ARGUS, etc. and it's not like Oliver doesn't have the connections.
Guillermo Barrera was an assassin and died in a fight with the Hood. Technically Oliver started that fight, but only after Barrera pulled out his throwing knives. I'm not sure why Oliver wanted to get to him before the police, since I can't remember why Oliver choose to target him. Maybe he only wanted to make sure Barrera wouldn't do his job in Starling City and didn't trust the police to arrest him. (I wouldn't have, personally, with that reputation.) Either way, I doubt that after that fight had started both of them could have come out of it alive.
Ted Gaynor. There's not much to say there. Oliver killed him when he threatened/attempted to kill Diggle and Carly.
Ted Daniels was about to shoot Oliver or the women he was protecting. Not much to say there, either.
Justin Whicker's death was not quite an accident. He attacked Oliver, missed him and fell out of a window with Felicity. There was no real time to save him, if anyone had wanted to do that.
And just for fun I tried to remember anyone killed by Oliver in s1 who wasn't just a nameless hired gun. I couldn't think of many, but here's what I was able to remember:
The 3 kidnappers from 1x01. They were hired by Moira and weren't supposed to hurt Tommy or Oliver, but the boys couldn't know that. What Oliver did know was that they killed that innocent witness, that they had kidnapped him and Tommy and that they had high powered firearms. Also, they tortured Oliver for information. Escape was the only viable option with the available information, which resulted in the deaths of two of the three kidnappers. The last one Oliver followed to protect his secret. But beyond that there was no guarantee that the third kidnapper wouldn't come back to hurt either of them or hurt any innocent bystanders during his escape.
Deadshot. Oliver not-killed him, as it turned out, when Deadshot was trying to kill him and Diggle.
Frank Bertinelli's right hand, whatever his name. He and his men kidnapped Oliver and Helena and tried to kill both of them. Oliver didn't have much choice considering his lack of weapons.
“The Savior”, the guy who kidnapped people, including Roy. He was trying to kill Oliver and/or Roy, when Oliver killed him.
The doctor from the mental hospital, who produced Vertigo. He had just tried to kill Oliver via Vertigo overdose and knew Oliver's secret. Considering that Oliver was literally seeing triple and barely on his feet, shooting the guy was the only safe way to deal with him.
The assassin from 1x20, trying to kill the boy staying at Oliver's. It was very obvious that the assassin was going to eliminate any witnesses. He was also actively trying to kill Oliver, when Oliver managed to kill him.
(If you can think of anyone else, feel free to tell me.)
Now let's play the game 'Which of those things is not like the others?" The answer should be Justin Claybourne.
The first flashback sets this between 1x05 and 1x06, since Diggle doesn't seem to know how Oliver does things and he comments on Oliver not ditching him anymore. Oliver has only just started researching Claybourne and Diggle's protest seems to imply that he thinks Oliver is going to kill Claybourne. Which isn't surprising, since the press and the police have created a reputation about the Hood that's not entirely true. But Oliver words seem to imply the same and I can't remember Oliver choosing a target with the intent of killing whoever it is.
In the second flashback the Hood explicitly states that the consequences of refusal will be death. That's another thing I can't remember the Hood doing in s1.
In the third flashback Diggle and Oliver outright discuss Oliver killing Claybourne, like it's a forgone conclusion. It also more than implies that Oliver regularly kills List-people, which has not actually been the case until then, since at least four of the six people Oliver targeted are still alive. The others are Leo Müller, discussed above, and Warren Patel, killed by Deadshot. (I also resent this most recent implication that Oliver doesn't think about the consequences of his actions. But that's another topic.)
The fourth is Oliver going after Claybourne and potentially killing anyone he finds there. (It's not clear in certain parts, but the staged bodies seem to imply that.)
That is not how the Hood went about crossing names off his List. It also doesn't make sense from a practical point of view and Oliver is very practical about his plans.
After Claybourne's death his company died, too. But that wasn't something Oliver could have predicted. Companies like that do survive their CEOs. That company could have continued their shady practices, which wouldn't help the victims of the epidemic. Killing Claybourne wouldn't have necessarily changed anything.
Instead s1 Oliver could have made Claybourne confess to creating the epidemic, like with Martin Somers and Jason Brodeur. He could have hacked Claybourne's bank accounts, stolen the money (see Adam Hunt) and donated it to organizations to buy the TB medication. Or bought the medication himself and donated it. Or he could have stolen the medication and given it to hospitals and clinics. Or he could have hacked the company and leaked that information to the press or police. Or any number of things he's already done or will do.
The tl;dr version: s1 Oliver didn't kill any List-people when it wasn't in self defense or defense of others. Most of the people Oliver killed in s1 were actively trying to kill him or others. The MO of the Hood in s1 doesn't fit with what we see in the 5x09 flashbacks. There were a number of more useful things than killing Claybourne s1 Oliver could and would have done. Which means the 5x09 flashback don't make sense for s1 and make Prometheus a far less interesting character. And I want to Gibbs-slap the writers for going the lazy route of ret-conning s1 instead of creating a story that fits into established canon.
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