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thatscarletflycatcher · 7 months

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Harriet Vane: Peter, have you ever considered this?

Lord Peter Wimsey: What?

Harriet Vane: Harriet Vane, murder suspect.

Lord Peter Wimsey: oh, really!

Harriet Vane: No, listen. Personal characteristics: once tried for the murder of her lover, and acquitted by the skin of her teeth. Says she found Alexis death at 2.10 but can bring no evidence to prove that she did not see him alive. Took three hours to walk 4 and a half miles to inform the police. Is the sole witness to the finding of the razor, the time of the death, and the conditions of the flat iron. Was immediately suspected by Perkins and is probably still suspected by the police.

Lord Peter Wimsey: Nonsense, Harriet. I really...

Harriet Vane: who have been searching her room.

Lord Peter Wimsey: Have them, by Jove!

Harriet Vane: yes. Don't look like that. They couldn't very well do anything else, could they.

Lord peter Wimsey: I have something to say to Umplety.

Harriet Vane: No, you can spare me that.

Lord Peter Wimsey: But it is absurd!

Harriet Vane: It is not! Do you think I'm witless? Do you think I don't know why you came galloping down here at a five minutes notice? It was very nice of you and I should be grateful, but do you think I like it? You thought I was pretty brazen, I expect, when you found me getting publicity out of the thing. So I was. There's no choice for a person like me to be anything but brazen. I can't hide my name, it's what I live by. If I did hide it it would only be another suspicious circumstance, wouldn't it? But do you think it makes matters any more agreeable to know that it is only the patronage of Lord Peter Wimsey that prevent men like Umplety from being openly hostile?

Lord Peter Wimsey: I've been afraid of that.

Harriet Vane: Then why did you come?

Lord Peter Wimsey: So that you might not have to send for me.

Harriet Vane: Oh. Now, of course, everybody will say "look what he's doing for that woman, isn't it marvelous of him? I suppose every man thinks he's only to go on being superior, and any woman will come tumbling into his arms. It's disgusting.

Lord Peter Wimsey: Thank you. I may be everything you say, patronizing, interfering, conceited, intolerable and all the rest of it, but do give me credit for a little intelligence. Do you think I don't know all that? Do you think it is pleasant for any man who feels about a woman as I do about you to fight his way along under this detestable burden of gratitude? Damn it! Do you think I don't know perfectly well that I'd have a better chance if I was deaf, blind, maimed, starving, drunk or dissolute, so that you could have the fun of being magnanimous? Why do you think I treat my own sincerest feelings like something out of a comic opera if it isn't to save myself the bitter humiliation of seeing you try not to be utterly nauseated by them?

Harriet Vane: No, don't talk like that.

Lord Peter Wimsey: I wouldn't if you didn't force me to. And you might have the justice of remembering you can hurt me a damn side more than I can possibly hurt you.

Harriet Vane: I know I'm being horribly ungrateful.

Lord Peter Wimsey: Grateful! Good God am I never to get away from the bleat of that filthy adjective? I don't want gratitude! I don't want kindness! I don't want sentimentality! I don't even want love -I could make you give me that, of a sort-; I want common honesty.

Harriet Vane: Do you? But that's what I've always wanted. I don't think it is to be got.

Lord Peter Wimsey: Alright. I can respect that. Only you have got to play the game. Don't force an emotional situation and then blame me for it.

Harriet Vane: But I don't want any situation. I want to be left in peace.

Lord Peter Wimsey: But you are not a peaceful person.

Harriet Vane: Perhaps not, but all this is so dreary and exhausting.

Lord Peter Wimsey: Call me anything you like, but not dreary! Great Scott that I have been boring you interminably for 18 months on end! I know you once said that if anybody ever married me it would be for the sake of hearing me piffle on, but I expect that kind of thing pulls after a bit.

Harriet Vane: *laughs*

Lord Peter Wimsey: I'm babbling, I know I'm babbling, what on Earth am I to do about it?

Harriet Vane: oh, it's not fair, you always make me laugh. I can't fight, I'm so tired. You don't seem to know what being tired is. Stop. Let go. I won't be bullied, Peter, I won't be bullied! And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to make myself ready for an appointment.

Excuse me, I'll be right here stuffing my face into a pillow.

#Lord Peter Wimsey #this is from the radio drama btw #Harriet Vane #Have His Carcase #I'm going feral as the kids say

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o-uncle-newt · 3 months

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We don't talk enough about the Petherbridge/Walter adaptations of the Wimsey/Vane novels.

(Well, we probably talk EXACTLY enough about Gaudy Night, which is really pretty bad, but besides for that...)

(Sorry, just a warning, Richard Morant as Bunter is fine but I won't have much to say about him here. I just really like this picture.)

The casting is basically perfect, especially Harriet Walter as Harriet Vane. I no longer see the book character in any other way- the only notable difference is that in the book she's noted as having a deep voice, but Walter's has a distinctive enough tone that I think it works regardless. She is just so, so, so good- captures the character beautifully, sells everything she does whether mundane or ridiculous (probably the best/most realistic reaction of someone finding a body I have EVER seen in Have His Carcase), makes the most of every limited minute she's on screen in Strong Poison and leaves her mark every minute that she isn't... and she looks AMAZING doing all of it. Just perfect, could not imagine better casting.

Edward Petherbridge I don't hold up to that level of perfection- I think that, try as he might, he's not really able to capture Wimsey's dynamism (possibly because he's a bit too old for the role) and is a bit overly caricatured in many of his mannerisms. But overall he does a pretty good job, in addition to looking quite a lot like how I'd imagined Wimsey- but in particular, I think he does a really lovely job of selling a lot of the emotion that he has to convey in some scenes that feel like they SHOULDN'T be adaptable from the book- specifically the scenes of him and Harriet. Him proposing to Harriet, him being disappointed when she (completely reasonably) turns him down... those shouldn't work on screen with real humans rather than in Sayers's calculated prose, but it DOES work and in no small part because he's great at selling Wimsey's feelings as being genuine even when his actions seem over the top. And, of course, Harriet Walter sells her end of the scenes right back. All in all, I think I have mixed feelings about Petherbridge as Lord Peter Wimsey the detective, but I'm a fan of him as Peter, the man who has feelings for Harriet.

Overall, though, both are, I think, very successful in capturing these characters- the fact that they take these people who even in the book can sometimes push the boundaries of likeability (which to be clear, is part of what I love about reading them) and make them eminently watchable is a great achievement. And also, in addition to their really looking like their characters individually, they're very well matched as a pair in the way that one pictures them from the book. They're even of very similar height and build, which we know is canonically true from Gaudy Night, and thus at least a somewhat relevant element of their dynamic.

Now, the adaptations are very uneven, and that's even without talking about Gaudy Night because, while it has about as good a rendition of the punting scene as I think we were ever going to get, most of the rest of it is crap and massively expands on what I think are serious problems to Peter and Harriet's relationship that the series as a whole had (not to mention cutting the character of St George, which is a travesty). None of the adaptations are perfect, and mess with aspects of their relationship in negative ways- for example, the ending of Strong Poison is exactly backward in a really awful way. I'll get back to this.

But when the show gets the two of them right, it gets them RIGHT, even when it's adapting Sayers's text/creating new dialogue. There are scenes in this one that I love almost as much as the canon text, like this one:

I don't think any of this is in the book, and there are things that happen here that I don't think Sayers would have ever written. But at the same time, a combination of the dialogue and the actors makes it COMPLETELY believable as these two people, and it captures a moment that is just really key for Peter as he faces his limitations and his feelings- something that in the book is conveyed through a lot of internal narrative on Peter's part that would be impossible to adapt as is, but that in the world of the show needed to happen in a much more visual and narrative way. Not all of the dialogue that this series chooses to fill in those gaps works, but even when it doesn't the actors do their best to sell the heck out of it, and when the dialogue DOES work it is seriously brilliant.

Probably my favorite of the adaptations is Have His Carcase, and scenes like this one are a big part of the reason why:

They change the location, but otherwise it's EXTRAORDINARILY faithful to the equivalent scene in the book, and honestly it shouldn't have worked with real people doing it and yet it does. It's just acted perfectly, given just enough arch and silly humor (particularly with the spinning door) that we don't attempt to take it too seriously, while also conveying the relevant emotions so well. The actors in the scene through only their faces and ways of speaking convey subtext that Sayers, in the book, conveyed a lot later on as actual text in the characters' thoughts, and there's something pretty great about that.

Other Have His Carcase scenes are less good (the dance scene is mediocre at best, I think), but if there's another Have His Carcase scene that I think illustrates how great Walter and Petherbridge are at selling the human sides of their characters, it's That Argument- seen here:

The Argument is a pale imitation of that in the book- the one in the book is, in fact, probably unadaptable as is- but it is still just so good because the actors are so good at selling it. Walter is just brilliant in the role and utterly inhabits it while also imbuing it with her own spin, and makes us feel Harriet's pain- and Petherbridge, through some relatively subtle facial expressions and reactions, is able just as well to make US understand what all of this means to him and how he feels. It's actually really remarkable that, just like how Sayers writes a relationship dynamic that only feels like it works because she's the one who wrote it that very specific way, this scene feels like it only works because these two actors play it in this specific way. Could two other actors do it? Very possibly, but it would feel super different and I wonder if it would feel this authentic. (I do want to note though that this scene made me really wish that we'd seen a Frasier-era David Hyde Pierce in the role of a younger and spryer, but equally posh, witty, and vulnerable, Wimsey. It just gave me vibes of something that he'd do beautifully.)

Now, as I said above, this doesn't get EVERYTHING right. In fact, quite a lot of their relationship ends up going pretty wrong- as I think a major mistake is their throughline which emphasizes Peter's continued pursuit of Harriet as not just reiterating his interest to make it clear that he hasn't changed his mind, but actively taking advantage of moments and situations in a romantic sense, taking a much more specific role in engaging with her physically, commenting on her appearance, saying how difficult it is for him to NOT pursue her more, etc. It makes the whole thing feel a lot more cat-and-mouse rather than a budding relationship of equals, and one where Peter acknowledges the whole time that they HAVE to be equals for a) Harriet to feel comfortable with him and b) them to be good together. In fact, however good the Argument above is, it's kind of undercut by this very pattern- he makes the book's point about him treating his feelings like something out of a comic opera, but he also at that point in the story has had a few much more oppressively serious scenes with her that clearly make her uncomfortable- nothing like anything in a comic opera. It's like the show misses the point a little.

I think the place where this really starts is at the end of Strong Poison. (I could see an argument to be made that it starts earlier, in a few smaller nuances of their jailhouse scenes, but I like those enough that I choose not to read into them too much lol.) After what I think is a great addition to the final jailhouse scene (one that I loved so much I repurposed it for a fic)- "it's supposed to be about love, isn't it" and some excellent reactions from Petherbridge- Harriet goes to court, her charges are dismissed, and unlike in the book, when it's Wimsey who leaves first (which Eiluned and Sylvia point out is a sign of his decency in not waiting for Harriet to thank him), here Wimsey is the one who watches as Harriet rejects him and walks away from him- the beginning of the chase. But nothing about their relationship is meant to be a chase! It's so frustrating to watch as that proceeds to be a continuing issue to a limited degree in Have His Carcase (where it's at least balanced by enough good moments that it doesn't matter so much) and to a MASSIVE, genuinely uncomfortable degree in Gaudy Night.

The only praise I will give it is that while the punt scene in the book is unfilmable, I think this adaptation did its best here and it's pretty good.

I'm not going to spend much time talking about Gaudy Night otherwise, because I'd need all day for it and also I'd probably need to rewatch it to make sure I get the details right and I have zero interest in doing that, but the way that it has Wimsey imposing himself and his feelings/hopes on Harriet to a really ridiculous degree, in a way that he never, ever does in the book, is just so so discomfiting and makes me feel terrible for Harriet. She doesn't deserve that. If I recall correctly, in that scene at the dance at the beginning, she's so happy just being with him and then he's all "oh so this means you want to marry me" and she just droops. He's so aggressive!

And that's what makes the worst part so bad, because not only does this miniseries not depict Wimsey's apology as the book does- one of the best scenes in a book full of brilliant scenes- it would actually be weird if it did, because this show doesn't imply that there's ANYTHING for Wimsey to be apologizing for! In fact, unlike in the books where we see Wimsey growing and deconstructing the parts of himself that had been demanding of Harriet, in the series we only see him get more demanding- until finally he wins. It's honestly infuriating and I hate it- the actors do their best to sell it (and apparently they were given bad enough material that they actually had to rewrite some of it themselves, though I have mixed feelings about the results) but it is just massively disappointing. Basically the whole emotional journey between the two of them is not just neutered but twisted.

For all of my criticisms of the adaptations' all around approach to their relationship, I do have to reiterate- Walter and Petherbridge do a wonderful, wonderful job. (Especially Walter.) When they're given good material to work with, and even often when they aren't, they are able to sell it so well- and particularly in the case of Walter, I genuinely can't think of the character as anyone but her rendition now. She IS Harriet Vane for me. And, for all the flaws that the series has, that's something pretty dang special.

Anyway, for anyone who read through this whole thing and hasn't seen these adaptations, I DO recommend Strong Poison and Have His Carcase- but not Gaudy Night unless you're either really curious or a glutton for punishment. The first two, though, have very good supporting casts, are quite faithful plot wise (sometimes to a fault- another flaw is that they are really devoted to conveying the whole mystery with all its clues sometimes to the point of dragginess, but will drop sideplots like, for example, Parker and Mary- which is totally reasonable, but still vaguely disappointing as those sideplots tend to add some levity/characterization), and just generally are an overall good time. (Some standout characters for me are Miss Climpson in Strong Poison and Mrs Lefranc in Have His Carcase.) And, of course, the best part is seeing the little snippets of Peter and Harriet that come through- less so their journey, vs in the book where that's central, but so many scenes where we just see the two of them together as they are in that moment and it's so satisfying.

#peter wimsey series #peter wimsey #lord peter wimsey #harriet vane #dorothy l sayers #edward petherbridge #harriet walter #a dorothy l sayers mystery #as was apparently the official title of the petherbridge/walter series #my thanks to the as my wimsey takes me podcast people #for a) coming back and finishing have his carcase #which was very enjoyable plane listening #but also for mentioning the adaptation in one of the episodes and inspiring the rewatch that led to this post #also this blog is basically now a sayers blog just as it is a finnemore one i guess #which as i note is fitting due to my Dog Collar Theory #which is YET ANOTHER THING THAT THE GAUDY NIGHT ADAPTATION LEAVES OUT GRRRRRR #strong poison #have his carcase #gaudy night

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leojurand · 9 months

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Peter: Oy!

Harriet: Hullo!

Peter: I just wanted to ask whether you’d given any further thought to that suggestion about marrying me.

Harriet (sarcastically): I suppose you were thinking how delightful it would be to go through life like this together?

Peter: Well, not quite like this. Hand in hand was more my idea.

Harriet: What is that in your hand?

Peter: A dead starfish.

Harriet: Poor fish!

Peter: No ill-feeling, I trust.

Harriet: Oh, dear no.

Dorothy L. Sayers, Have His Carcase

#lord peter wimsey #have his carcase #dorothy l. sayers #THEY'RE SO POOKIE TO ME #this book... incredibly charming #and at the same time there are so many scenes of witnesses relating what they know i might go crazy if i read more of that #i think that's when i really feel that this book is much longer than the previous ones #but peter and harriet more than make up for it!!#so silly so fun and yet so layered <3 #also sayers just makes this book wildly entertaining to read with things like ☝️ that #what a talent #currently reading

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mariacallous · 1 year

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Harriet Vane had danced with Lord Peter in a wine-coloured frock. Wimsey considered, rightly, that when a woman takes a man’s advice about the purchase of clothes, it is a sign that she is not indifferent to his opinion. Various women, at various times and in various quarters of the globe, had clothed themselves by Wimsey’s advice and sometimes also at his expense —but then, he had fully expected them to do so. He had not expected it of Harriet, and was as disproportionately surprised and pleased as if he had picked up a sovereign in the streets of Aberdeen. Like all male creatures, Wimsey was a simple soul at bottom.

From Have His Carcase by Dorothy L. Sayers

#have his Carcase #dorothy l. sayers #lord peter wimsey #Harriet vane

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yellowmoya · 22 days

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watching Have His Carcase

Hilariously, Bunter gets the heroic ride through the waves.

#Lord Peter Wimsey #Have His Carcase #Dorothy L Sayers

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talkingpiffle · 2 years

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"The best remedy for a bruised heart is not, as so many people seem to think, repose upon a manly bosom. Much more efficacious are honest work, physical activity, and the sudden acquisition of wealth. After being acquitted of murdering her lover, and, indeed, in consequence of that acquittal, Harriet Vane found all three specifics abundantly at her disposal; and although Lord Peter Wimsey, with a touching faith in tradition, persisted day in and day out in presenting the bosom for her approval, she showed no inclination to recline upon it."

--Dorothy L. Sayers, Have His Carcase

#dorothy l. sayers #harriet vane #lord peter wimsey #have his carcase #it's have his carcase season #if tumblr and i are still around in five years when hhc enters public domain in the united states #have his carcase daily anyone?

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thesarahshay · 10 days

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#dorothy l sayers #lord peter wimsey #lord peter memesy #Have His Carcase

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all-peristeronic · 1 year

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Have His Carcase, Dorothy L. Sayers

#have his carcase #peter/harriet #lord peter wimsey #quotations #I thought of this recently for no reason whatsoever

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evenaturtleduck · 6 months

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My favorite genre-savvy novelist, who realized she'd been written in as the love interest and went on strike until she got promoted from Damsel In Distress to Best Friend And Intellectual Equal.

#I was going to finish my sermon for Sunday but instead I was possessed by the spirit of Lord Peter and couldn't move on until I'd drawn her #harriet vane #lord peter wimsey #have his carcase #favorite books #my art

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o-uncle-newt · 1 year

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Forgive me for hijacking my JF fanblog for this, an overly long rapture about Dorothy L Sayers's fabulous Gaudy Night

Or don't, I don't care. But either way, I'll be back to the regularly scheduled programming eventually, not that it was ever very regularly scheduled.

Anyhow-

I love Gaudy Night. One of my favorite books. It's not perfect, but it's brilliant, and that's better. Brilliance is rarely perfect because it requires creativity and an element of risk. Gaudy Night takes risks that don't all work, but when they do they are sublime.

I think the book is purposely messy and layered in ways where you can assume you know what Sayers was trying to say but can also get totally different things out of it. Purposeful in a choose-your-own-adventure way. You can read it as being purely feminist and ignoring class, or you can read it as being about women who are purely feminist and ignore class (to their detriment and ultimately peril). You can read it as Harriet falling in love with Peter or you can read it as Harriet discovering she was always a little bit in love with him. You can read it as being about women who prioritize integrity or you can read it as being about women who have grown comfortable and cloistered from real world responsibilities. And, of course, you can read it as women being cloistered from real life responsibilities or you can read it as female academics being held to a standard of responsibility that would never be expected of male ones. So many things to explore!

Also, it happens to speak to a lot of things I'm going through right now, though more in specific motifs than in the central conflict per se. (In my case, without being too personal, it's mostly the theme of ruminating endlessly over a choice that, once I've decided, will have felt inevitable.) So that kind of feeling of sitting in Harriet's headspace- and what a clearly defined headspace it is!- is pretty wonderful if jarring.

And so much amazingness- the punt? The chessmen?! Placetne domina?!? Yes, even the dog collar, because the way it's used is just kind of perfect. (And my mandatoryish JF reference here- as in my previous (re)blog, I really wonder if the idea for the dog collar in Here's What We Do came from this book. The conceptual resemblance is pretty uncanny.)

And human feelings!! Like, I came away from this book being genuinely unsure if I'd like either Harriet or Peter if I knew them in real life. Harriet is really judgmental in a way that I've never particularly liked in people, and Peter is smug in a way that would get my goat pretty quickly. But they're messy and in this book Harriet in particular feels real (and Peter feels real through her eyes) and messy real people are the most fun to read about. And "intellectual" romances are the best because the people in them think so much and get so mushy. They're really a perfect pair for this sort of thing and are loveable and compelling on their own terms.

(I also think, incidentally, that Busman's Honeymoon is a wonderful book, if somewhat ridiculous in the mystery and village-folk bits, and really underrated as an exploration of the challenge that Miss De Vine gives Harriet as to what happens when two intellects, and independent forces, marry. Where does one give way, and where does one stand firm? And what does it mean once someone has made a decision and feels at peace with it, and once someone has been pursuing something for so long and finally has it? How do they rebalance the relationship now that it is Harriet who, in many ways, has the emotional upper hand? And the ending is a LOT in a really great way.)

Though... I'll take a sec to rant about the miniseries version of Gaudy Night, with the full acknowledgement that I'm far from the first to do so. No chessmen? No dog collar? No Reggie Pomfret? No proposal letter? No St George? The creator sitting down and apparently saying "hmmm, people are OBVIOUSLY fans of Gaudy Night because of the intricate mechanisms of the poison pen mystery"? The way in which Peter is so pushy and off-putting at the beginning, and is the one who brings up the idea of academic women being repressed? The gratuitously edited dialogue? The way that the proposal at the end is portrayed as inevitable rather than the leap of faith that Peter helps Harriet to make? The fact that Peter NEVER APOLOGIZES?! Not even Harriet Walter and Edward Petherbridge save it, and that says a lot, because they're really good in it, even if I always thought that Petherbridge was just SLIGHTLY off as Wimsey (over-mannered and not particularly dynamic, though with great subtle physical comedy)- but Harriet Walter was always spot on and I'm kind of in love with her in this role, or possibly want to be her, I'm never sure (though I'd never pull off the hairstyle).

Though I will say, re the Peter never apologizing bit: the other two miniseries ARE genuinely good, I think- Strong Poison diverges from the book but in interesting ways except for the ending, which I'll get to in a minute, and Have His Carcase is basically as good an adaptation as anyone could have expected and the pacing edits generally work- but I think the whole miniseries run has one uniting flaw, which is that rather than follow Sayers's lead and have the trilogy deconstruct the idea that Peter is trying to wear Harriet down into proposing, the show seems to almost purposely perpetuate it. It's by far the most explicit in the Gaudy Night adaptation, but in Strong Poison, the awful flip of the ending in which it's Peter running after Harriet sets this up as the guy chasing the girl, and the very over the top attempts at compliments and physical affection in Have His Carcase are very irritating, even as the show does a phenomenal job with the argument scene. Gaudy Night only makes it worse, of course, with that cringeworthy scene at the dance and the complete lack of any depth to their relationship beyond what seems like perpetual nudging on his part, culminating in a basically sterile proposal scene that really does feel like he finally managed to wear her down. (I did read that Petherbridge and Walter rewrote it to be better, and I don't doubt that it was much worse originally, but it still is not great.)

Finally, a few random fancasting notes:

I've never really thought overmuch about modern day fancasting, but I feel like Tom Goodman-Hill would be very good as Wimsey. No opinion on who'd play Harriet.

I've also had this feeling that I'd have LOVED to see a British-accented David Hyde Pierce in the role of Wimsey back in the day (of course he's too old now). Would he be pretty similar to Petherbridge? Maybe. But I think that he'd bring something really interesting to the part that I'd have loved to see. Or maybe I just unreasonably love Niles Crane, also a possibility.

I think that if any new version of the LPW books comes out, Harriet Walter should play the Dowager Duchess. She would be absolutely wonderful.

#dorothy l sayers #lord peter wimsey #harriet vane #gaudy night #strong poison #have his carcase #busman's honeymoon #edward petherbridge #harriet walter

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