#i dont think dean and john would last that long after they kill azazel though

[femsammy]

samjohn where John lives past s2 and holds a dead Sam in his arms instead of Dean in ahbl? How do you think he’d behave?

This is not something I had ever considered before and it made me lose my mind a little bit when I let myself think about it.

I LOVE this scene for Sam and Dean but oh my god can you imagine if it was John in the mud on his knees, rocking Sam back and forth, telling him he's going to be okay because his dad's got him now, he'll keep him safe.

He knows there's nothing he can do, tries his best to keep the tears from his voice as he holds Sam's face in his hands, memorising his features. Wipes the blood from his mouth with a shaky thumb. He wants Sam's last memories to be of him, of someone who loves him so much. He can't let Sam go with his last memories of being stabbed in the back.

He's glad that Dean isn't here to see this, that he doesn't have to see his brother die in front of him.

He's failed both his boys in so many different ways but he never wanted to end up here, could never fathom ending up here even when he considered the thought that he might have to ...

He can't even finish the thought.

Sam isn't dying by his hand but it still feels like a personal failure, like it's his fault somehow. It's like the pain of losing Mary all over again and please God no he can't do this again, he can't breathe as he cradles Sam to his chest and holds his limp head on his shoulder, dirty hand buried in dark curls.

"Shh, Sammy," he whispers, not able to speak any louder than this. He keeps talking, even knowing Sam won't respond to him again. Keeps rocking him like he did when he was trying to soothe a fussy baby Sam. He suddenly thinks of the baby he brought home from the hospital with Mary, of placing him in Dean's arms for the first time. "It's okay." His tears are soaking into Sam's hair, but he doesn't think about how Sam can't feel it. "You ... you'll be with Mary. You'll be safe with her, Sammy." He doesn't even know what he's saying anymore, knees numb from the cold mud and his head and chest aching with a grief he never wanted to feel again. He doesn't believe in happy endings or heaven anymore but if he has to lie to soothe himself Sam, he'll do it. He'll do it if it means he can pretend he made his son's last moments comfortable. He doesn't think about how Sam stopped moving before he started talking to him. He can't stop pretending, he doesn't want to.

#it feels messy but i decided to keep it like that since i think it fits johns mood better #i keep meaning to write shippy stuff but it ends up as gen #to keep this sad i dont think john went and made a deal to bring sam back. so sam stays dead #i dont think dean and john would last that long after they kill azazel though #sam winchester #john winchester #samjohn #im sure theres a lot of grammar and punctuation errors but i wanted to post it like this #also thank you for the prompt anon! <3 this was a fun one to answer

[missjackil]

What I Think is Happening

We saw a big focus on Dean and Jack’s relationship this past episode, and I think it’s for a plot reason. No, its not so Sam can be sidelined because Jack is popular so TPTB want to make him Dean’s son instead, but because Dean and Jack need some ground to be made up for starters. We all already know Sam and Cas are very close to Jack, but Dean was harsh on him until the end of 13x04 last year, and soon after, Jack got lost in the AU. And then this season, Jack recently said that if Michael cant be killed without killing Dean, then Dean dies too, so even if thats all water under the bridge, it was still bad water, and they need to come together. That’s part 1. 

Part 2 is that, a common SPN pattern is that something gets built up before being torn down, or strongly challenged. They tend to play up relationships or roles right before something comes along to crush it or change it drastically.  Remember in S1, Sam and John fought tooth and nail until they had a heart to heart talk and then soon after, John died. Later in S5, Sam and Dean were at odds right before each chose each  other. Or S11 when an emphisis was put on Sam and Dean being together and Dean never leaving Sam, and then ending on Dean needing to choose the world over Sam and Sam accepting it.  What I think is probably happening here, is that soon, Dean will be trying to kill Jack (as Michael!Dean) or Jack trying to kill Dean (however that may come about) and most likely. Sam needing to make a choice between Jack and Dean. 

Supernatural is a horror/drama show. Emphisis on drama. Any way to kick us in the feels, they will do. If this isnt what you like, then there are a bunch of other shows that don’t deal in drama to choose from, this one however, likes making us cry, and get angry, and scared and stressed. Im pretty sure this is about to be one of those things,

Remember that Jack was able to kill Michael but he didnt, so as Im convinced Michael is still in Dean but hiding, its probably coming soon that Michael!Dean tries to kill him. Of course in attempt to protect himself in case Jack recovers his grace and then will be strong enough to kill him again. Same way hes been looking for dark Kaia’s spear.  So why does this story arch have to be Dean’s and not Sam’s? Because it would have never  made any sense for Sam to have been unaccepting of Jack, unless Jack was bad. However, Jack is good, and no better way make a new character likable, than to have Sam like them.  Imagine if it was Dean who accepted Jack first and not Sam? Sam would have a valid reason to, with him being Lucifer’s son and all, and it would feel wrong , or OOC for Dean to like Lucifers son when Sam didnt and samgirls and bibros alike would be side eyeing Dean, like “How could you do this to Sam? He’s the son of the entity who tortured him for 180 yrs and taunts him to this day!” And then after a few episodes, Sam for whatever reason warms up to him. It would always be in our mind that he’s rightfully uncomfortable around Jack, and we’d wonder if Sam wasnt just keeping the peace, for Dean’s sake, and still quietly hates Jack.  Jack wouldnt be as well loved as he is, if this arc had gone the other way and when the question of chosing one over the other rears its ugly head, it wouldnt be as dramatic.  As we learned in the last 13+ seasons, is that Sam and Dean will die for each other, kill for each other, destroy the universe for each other, and that wont ever change, but throw in someone they both love as a son, and now you have a problem. If one brother would choose Jack over the other, it wouldnt be that they love him more than their brother. It would be that they do love Jack, and hes so young and hasnt even had a chance to live yet, and they know their brother is more than willing to be a martyr, and has more often than not, wanted to die and stay dead. Now we truly do have a moral delema. This also wouldnt be as dramatic if the boys needed to choose between their mother and each other, because even though many of us dont hate Mary, I dont think we’d hurt too much if she died.  If this happens, Im pretty sure, that something else will interviene and the choice wont have to be made. Like when Lucifer was holding Dean by the throat and telling Sam to either say “yes” or Dean dies. Something happened so that the choice never needed to be made, and to this day, we dont know how Sam would have chosen. We could say “Oh well obviously, hed say yes, because he wont let Dean die” but, he DID just tell Lucifer he was ready to watch the people he loves die, but he isnt ready to be his bitch. So really, we dont know what Sam would have chosen in the moment.  So while I wont lie and say Im not salty about low Sam content thus far this season, I am finding the other stories unfolding very interesting. Even what would seem to be very boring stories, have potential to go a very interesting way. I generally dont care about the demons, but what if the fact that they have no ruler, and are scared of Sam, that he unintentionally became the King of Hell?

 I dont give a crap about the Angels either, but what if the only way to save them (and yes of course Cas will try to save them) is to release them from The Empty which also unloads a bunch of nasty demons from the past that the boys have killed? Azazel. Lilith. Alistare Ruby? (note: bringing back dead follks has been part of the shows actual formula since S2 and its not going to change. Accept it and stop crying whenever it happens. you dont have to be a fan of the person they brought back, but just accept its always been part of the show) So obviously now, Lucifer is coming back and I too am tired of the character, but I accept that Lucifer will always be the series long big bad and we’ll have to deal with him off and on till the very end. However, now that he has Jack’s grace and Nick has made it obvious that hes a psychopath, what if Lucifer comes back as freakin scary, and not the spoiled 16 yr old he was? How much worse could he be to Sam then? So yeah, I see lots of interesting potential that could unfold from these stories.  This brings me to my final thought. And its just a thought, something Ive been batting around since yesterday. What if Michael is making Jack sick? Just hear me out. Jack wasnt sick till Dean came home. We dont know of him being sick while Cas had him away on a hunting trip, he got sicker after spending time with Dean in 14x06, and is now near death after spending the afternoon with Dean. Dean had a couple of dizzy spells, and possibly even some lapses in memory. Not remembering Jacks last name, when he was born, (but yes, these just may have been normal confusion in the heat of the moment) but Michael can obviously manipulate the biology of a creature. like giving the Djinn more powers that he only needs to touch someone to make their nightmares come to life. What if he’s manipulating Jacks health and when he does so, it makes Dean dizzy? I mean he cant just snap his fingers and Jack explode or he’ll blow his cover right? Make it look natural and no one will suspect anything. Anyway. that part is just a thought. Im sure there’s holes but, it does make me wonder :)

#my meta #whats going on here #sam winchester #dean winchester #jack kline

[mittensmorgul]

So @shixpe and I have been chatting for like the last hour... (edited a bit so that it makes sense...)

but back to 13.03, i found Sam's expression to Dean's outburst about Cas very telling not just in a "feel bad" way but more that he knows or is realizing how Dean is actually taking the loss of Cas

mittensmorgul we can certainly hope\ Sam has Just Not Got It yet up to this point, I mean

shixpe we go striaght from talking about Sam's past and comparing him to Jack etc to how Dean cant get over losing Cas because of Jack.

mittensmorgul Yep. Sam had been thinking of Jack in terms of HIMSELF (and his whole demon blood arc), and not getting why Dean couldn't feel that way about him too... but Dean's been seeing Jack in terms of AZAZEL (the yellow-eyed demon responsible for murdering his loved one) I mean... Sam wasn't gonna adopt Azazel back in early seasons and just ~forgive him~ for both Jess's death and Mary's death, and try to see how he deserved to be saved... Yet that's what he's expecting Dean to do now... (obviously Jack is not equivalent to azazel and he's a nougaty bab who needs support and training, but his POWER had the same result regardless of his intent) And Dean WILL come to see that, but in order for Sam to understand, that's literally the framing the show gave to Jack's yellow-eyed powers here...

shixpe but also even though Azazel killed mary and (more relevant) Jess, Sam blamed himself.  Dean told him it wasnt his fault, but he will blame Jack for Cas' death

mittensmorgul yep

shixpe because emotions

mittensmorgul Sam blamed himself because he never told the truth to Jess, never warned her about his dreams, never told her ANYTHING.

shixpe even though that would obviously have done nothing tbh except maybe she'd have left him

mittensmorgul And now Dean's blaming himself for not being able to get through to Cas, for not doing ~something~ to stop him...

shixpe if she stayed, Azazel would get her

mittensmorgul Heck, even if she LEFT he might've still gone after her, because she had to die for Sam's Man Pain.

shixpe i have a thought that Dean is using Jack to not blame himself

mittensmorgul yep Jack is convenient.

shixpe i always assumed Azazel killed her to make Sam hunt again.  but yeah i guess he woulda still stayed at school jacks the scapegoat i feel like thats important somehow Lucifer is the biggest scapegoat of all time "The devil made me do it"

mittensmorgul But also, he's not wrong... Jack's power ~did something~ to Cas, showed him a vision convincing enough for Cas to believe in it, to make him abandon his family he'd been willing to sacrifice everything for, to abandon everything he'd believed about nephilim in general and Lucifer's offspring in particular, to make sure that power was able to be born... But yes, Jess was killed to get Sam out of the civilian life and prompt him to seek revenge again... Brady said so in s5

shixpe i have my own theory still about what happened between Cas and Jack

mittensmorgul yeah ?

shixpe made me even more sure about it when Asmo blatantly asked Sam if Jack had Bonded with Luci i think the touchy yellow eyes thing with Cas in 12.19 was that bond

mittensmorgul You think he's legit formed some sort of "duckling bond" on Cas I think so too AGAINST CASTIEL'S WILL

shixpe yeah i think it did, in a way but not consciously (just like Jacks powers), control Cas

mittensmorgul And I think that bond is gonna be a sort of tug-of-war with Dean and Cas's "more profound bond" YEah, that's exactly what I've been saying since 12.19

shixpe it made Cas see Jack as his fucking responsibility to protect and raise like his own fuckin child yeah it became more evident to me in the finale because its the only real explanation i accept for why Cas ran back into that portal, the bond made him go after what he saw was a threat to Jack

mittensmorgul It's not intentional. Jack Nougat Winchester didn't force Cas to be his father... the "power that acts without his consent or control" which Jack doesn't even feel is truly "part of himself" and acts wildly and erratically in moments of extreme fear and self-defense... THAT is what formed the bond. YES. EXACTLY. THANK YOU

shixpe also its another forced bond (maybe you could kinda relate it to the bond between parent and child, its quite often there whether you want it or not)

mittensmorgul After 12.19, Cas became a sort of "extension" of Jack's power, but a part of that power with the wisdom and strength of an ancient angel...

shixpe i think its rare for a parent to not be willing to sacrifice themselves for their child which happened twice blatantly in the finale it was so goddamn obvious

mittensmorgul who had no ability to override that power YEP

shixpe yeah

[...]

shixpe but dont forget also the moment Cas went after Luci was when Jack was being born and Kelly died

mittensmorgul yep

shixpe oh and i forgot to add to the forced bond thing its similar to Amara's forced bond but now its with CAS like SERIOUSLY

shixpe Amara/Dean was compared to sibling bonds, at the end of s11 "You're our brother Cas", now its a parent/child bond

mittensmorgul YEP.

Note: Before this whole chunk of conversation, we’d been discussing how Sam’s approach to “training Jack’s powers” was similar both to John’s “marine corps discipline” approach to raising Sam and Dean “like soldiers.” It’s literally how Sam described their upbringing in the pilot episode. And he seems to have the whole drill sergeant thing down in how he’s approaching Jack’s powers.

The other noteworthy parallel we talked about was between how Sam was “spying” on Jack while reading a child psychology and parenting book-- just like Crowley was doing back in s11 with young Amara. Which loops right back around to Jack being used as a mirror/parallel to Amara in practically every respect.

As to playing Cas’s “bond” with Jack against his long-standing “more profound bond” with Dean... that element of compulsion had never been an aspect of Dean’s bond with Cas. The bond may have been forged with the intent of “marking Dean” for service to Heaven in his role as the Righteous Man in the Apocalypse, but even after he rejected that role, he continued to forge his bond with Cas BY THEIR OWN CHOICES. And that makes all the difference here, and I believe will be KEY to not only Jack’s eventual downfall and salvation, but the key to Jack’s eventual understanding or free will and humanity.

The ENTIRE POINT of this storyline is moot if Jack and Cas were complicit in consciously choosing this bond in the first place.

Okay, as you were. :P

#spn 12.19 #spn 11.06 #spn 13.03 #spn 11.23 #and now the darkness #jack nougat winchester #castiel winchester #the special agony of brainwashing #which in this case is more like the involuntary stockholm syndrome of unassailable cosmic power... but the end result is identical #that's what free will is