#i overthought so much of this symbolism lol

[omegalomania]

i kept forgetting to do this, but i finally remembered we got permission to upload the full pieces done for the SEASONS ZINE! they're not quite as good without @deathchic's gorgeous prose accompanying them, but they were really exciting to put together.

full breakdowns of the symbolism and unobstructed views of each card can be found beneath the cut, fully transcribed. as a warning, they are LONG.

my category was "fall," which encompassed the folie and save rock and roll eras, including the welcome to the new administration mixtape and pax am days ep. seeing as i've a great deal of love for all four of those works and fall out boy has four members, i decided to highlight each work by creating a tarot-inspired card, each featuring a member of the band.

Welcome to the New Administration: Pete Wentz

Pete was the primary organizer behind the viral campaign for CitizensFOB, making him the ideal pick for this card. His card prominently features his bass guitar with the iconic Clandestine logo.

Repeating Number 4: 4 stars above the eagle's head, 4 markings across the cube at the center, 4 members of the band

The tri-colored drapes behind Pete were suspended behind the band on the mixtape cover. The curtains parting over a black background signifies the oncoming hiatus.

The cube-like geometric shape in front of the eagle represents the single promotional art done for "America's Suitehearts," which was one of the tracks demoed in the mixtape and one of the singles that connected most prominently with the themes of the mixtape.

The shield Pete carries and the eagle mounted behind him are both symbols that were used to promote the CitizensFOB viral campaign, featuring the catchphrase: "For Our Betterment, There Is More Mayhem."

Pete's apparel is what he was wearing for the Believers Never Die Part Deux tour, in which there was a lot of direct satirization of Wall Street and American politics. All the band members were wearing suits and looking visibly battered, and Pete had a nosebleed. Patrick also has a nosebleed on his own card; both Pete and Patrick's cards are pre-hiatus projects.

The symbols at the four corners of the card are indicative of the imagery surrounding the campaign. The pointing hand comes from the cover for the mixtape; the airplane is a reference to the "Mailbaick Vaintey and Pidetaerson Firm" videos and accounts that were used in the viral campaign; the wolf head is for the "Alpha Dog" demo, which made its debut on the CitizensFOB mixtape and namedropped "Welcome to the New Administration" title in its demo form; the boomerang is for the "Lake Effect Kid" demo, which also made its debut on the CitizensFOB mixtape.

"The Citizen" is an obvious reference to the "Citizens For Our Betterment" campaign name.

The card features 12 colors, all colorpicked from the Welcome to the New Administration mixtape cover. This represents the 12 artists who contributed the mixtape musically (not merely speaking roles): The Academy Is..., Butch Watcher, The Cab, Cobra Starship, Fall Out Boy, Four Year Strong, Gym Class Heroes, Hey Monday, The Hush Sound, Panic! At The Disco, A Rocket to the Moon, and Tyga.

The background elements are indicative of the state of the band prior to the hiatus: the leaves are in tatters and shreds. The sunflower is a native Chicago variant, Helianthus occidentalis, late-blooming sunflower that lasts well into early fall. Sunflowers obviously have a strong association with the sun, but they also stand for adoration, loyalty, good fortune, vitality, longevity, and prosperity. The bright yellow color also associates them with intelligence, happiness, and friendship. Van Gogh had a famous Sunflower series, leading to the obvious connection to Infinity on High, the album preceding the Folie era. This made it a good pick for the pre-hiatus cards, since it was loyalty and friendship that led to the hiatus and ultimately to the band's longevity and vitality. Both Folie à Deux and the Welcome to the New Administration mixtape had more yellow tones than their post-hiatus counterparts as well, thus the pick of a yellow flower.

Folie à Deux: Patrick Stump

Patrick has stated that Folie à Deux is the most "him" out of Fall Out Boy's discography, making him ideal for this card.

Repeating Number 4: 4 electric bursts from the microphone, 4-sided symbol mounted on the microphone, 4 ruffles on Dr. Benzedrine's front

The card features 13 colors to represent the 13 tracks on the album itself (excluding bonus tracks). All colors were colorpicked directly from the album cover.

The anchor is a reference to the lyrics of "27," with a crown symbol on it in reference to "Headfirst Slide into Cooperstown on a Bad Bet."

There are 9 stripes on the upper side of the background, as a reference to "West Coast Smoker" - the suicidal cats have 9 lives.

The microphone represents Patrick's role as vocalist. It is also a reference to "(Coffee's for Closers)," as the microphone stand is electrified.

Patrick's right half is modeled after his costume in the "America's Suitehearts" video, "Dr. Benzedrine." He has a nosebleed in reference to the lyrics of the song that is his namesake, "20 Dollar Nose Bleed." Both he and Pete represent pre-hiatus projects, and both have bleeding noses.

Patrick's left half is modeled after his costume in the "What A Catch, Donnie" video. He has 20 stripes on his shirt - half black and half white, keeping with themes of duality. The 20 total stripes also references "20 Dollar Nose Bleed."

The background on the bottom half is shattered into 15 visible fragments, indicating the 15 tracks of the full album (when including bonus tracks such as "Pavlove" and "Lullabye"). There are also 27 fragments scattered between the two halves of Patrick, representing "27" and the 27 club.

The symbols at the four corners have dual meanings, in keeping with the theme of duality. The bee is both a lyrical reference to "Lullabye" and a nod to the intro of "Disloyal Order of Water Buffaloes"; the storm cloud is both a nod to the lyrics of "She's My Winona" and a reference to the "Mr. Sandman" character in the "America's Suitehearts" video; the horseshoe crab is both a reference to the lyrics on "The (Shipped) Gold Standard" and to the character of "H. Shoe Crab" in the "America's Suitehearts" video; the sunflower acknowledges the lyrics in "27" about shooting the sunshine into one's veins and nods to the flower on the hat of the "Donnie the Catcher" character in the "America's Suitehearts" video.

"The Mirror" references the theming of duality on the album, as well as the fact that the vinyl required a mirror for one to read the tracklisting since the text was printed backwards.

The card features heavy themes of duality to suit the theme of a "madness shared by two." The image is bisected in several respects: Patrick is fractured in two, both halves wearing different costumes and expressions; the shadow in the center is split down the middle; the broken heart in the upper half is also two faces; the image is divided both horizontally and vertically; and a dichotomy of fire (the electrified microphone stand) and water (the anchor).

Save Rock and Roll: Joe Trohman

Joe took a much more active writing role post-hiatus and on this album in particular, making him a good pick to represent Save Rock and Roll.

Repeating Number 4: 4 symbols, 4-pointed symbol holding up the others

The card features 11 colors, representing 11 tracks on the album. All colors were color-picked directly from the album cover, with an emphasis on reds, to suit the "red palette" imagery surrounding the album.

This card is saturated with imagery from the 11-part video series the band released in conjunction with the album, "The Youngblood Chronicles." Joe is wearing the costume he had for the majority of the video series prior to his death.

The card features heavy fire imagery due to this being a motif on the album and on the associated video series, with smoke rising up in the background. This is indicative of the band "rising from the ashes" post-hiatus, and also symbolizes the resurrection of Joe's character at the end of "The Youngblood Chronicles."

The guitar-axe weapon is from the "Death Valley" video and would have been his weapon if he weren't dead at this point in time. The card prominently features Joe's guitar, albeit turned into a weapon, as befitting the theming.

The four symbols mounted behind Joe are also from "The Youngblood Chronicles" - the symbol representing the "Silence the Noise" group; the symbol associated with the gang of child bikers; the symbol the Prince of Darkness tattoos on Joe's hand; and the crown-and-volcano symbol associated with the band post-hiatus. The symbol upon which these four icons are mounted is found on the floor in Heaven in the "Save Rock and Roll" video.

Joe is the only one who does not face the audience directly, and is turned in profile. Given the fictional nature of the narrative of "The Youngblood Chronicles," he has the most distance from the fourth wall.

The symbols at the four corners of the card also draw from imagery from "The Youngblood Chronicles." The disco ball is from the "Where Did the Party Go" video, in which Joe's character dies. The briefcase is a consistent object throughout the entire series, and serves to incite the entire narrative. Patrick's hook hand, also seen throughout, is significant due to Patrick's unwitting role as Joe's murderer. The snake, seen in "Young Volcanoes" and "Just One Yesterday," is representative of the group's collective trauma.

"The Defender" is a reference to the names of the characters of Fall Out Boy in "The Youngblood Chronicles," as they are referred to as "The Defenders of the Faith" in the longform video's opening credits. This title is in and of itself a reference to the title track on Save Rock and Roll.

Pax Am Days: Andy Hurley

The Pax Am Days EP is closest to the band's hardcore roots in terms of sonics and composition, and Andy is the most active in hardcore circles today, which makes him an ideal pick for this card.

Repeating 4: 4 holes in the American flag, 4 supports visible on the toms and bass drum, 4 tears on the left side of the wall

The card features 9 colors, all color-picked from the EP cover, per the 9 tracks on the EP (counting the bonus "New Dreams" Naked Rayguns cover).

There are also 9 tears on the right side of the wall, also befitting the 9 tracks on the EP.

The black-and-white checkered background represents the Pax Am studio where the EP was recorded and after which it was named.

Andy is the only one whose card features him looking directly at the audience, to signify the more intimate recording sessions behind the EP, in which studio chatter and laughter can be heard between every track. Being the drummer of the band, Andy's drumkit is naturally featured very prominently.

The crown-volcano symbol that's become synonymous with the band post-hiatus is (barely) visible mounted on Andy's bass drum. This is a similarity Andy's card shares with Joe's, as they both represent post-hiatus projects.

The American flag was also present in the studio for recording. The flag being torn and shredded on the card relates to tracks on the EP that discuss disillusionment with the American dream ("American Made"). It is also indicative of the eras preceding and following the Pax Am EP (Folie à Deux and the Welcome to the New Administration mixtape, and then American Beauty / American Psycho).

The four symbols at the corners of the card all represent lyrics present on the EP: the crown comes from "We Were Doomed from the Start (The King is Dead)"; the lion comes from "Demigods"; the black widow comes from "Hot to the Touch, Cold on the Inside"; the skull comes from "Love, Sex, Death."

"The Believer" is a reference to the final compilation prior to the band's four-year hiatus, "Believers Never Die." With the band returning seemingly from the dead, it seems that believers truly never die. This is paired with Andy reportedly being the only member of the band who always believed they would get back together, even if none of the others did.

The background elements for the post-hiatus cards feature leaves with much more reddish tones. The color red has a great deal of symbolic meanings, including high energy, vitality, strength, and prosperity. Additionally, the fallen leaves are rich and whole, to contrast the shredded-looking leaves in the background for the pre-hiatus cards. After the hiatus, the band's overall health and mentality was much healthier.

The flower in the background is a Madame Julia Correvon clematis, a wine-red Chicago variant of clematis that blooms in the summer and fall. Clematis flowers are associated with mental acuity, wisdom, travel, aspiration, and mischief. Red clematis in particular is associated with passion, energy, good luck, prosperity, security, physical vitality, and courage. This, along with the red color scheme, made it a good flower to represent the cards for the post-hiatus projects.

#fall out boy #fob #seasons zine #*mine #*art #ids in the alt text #i overthought so much of this symbolism lol #and the flowers arent 100% accurate to what theyre supposed to look like... #alas! it was fun regardless

[homemade-ghosts]

OMG thank you for your reply I feel a little bit lonely sometimes so I love to read theories! And what I meant is 90% right the only thing is that instead of a PW fight she cries because of the whole situation but basically you get me right. About the 'fireworks' and the 'canoe scene' what do you think? I think 1) the fireworks are real not meta after one team wins 2) Typical EJ will do something 'big' to made up things and the ily scene is in the canoe

You're welcome! I'm sorry you've been feeling lonely recently, but I'm glad you can find joy in theorizing/reading other's theories and hope it makes you feel a little less alone knowing that there are people out there who love something (this show) as much as you do and want to share that love with you (or at least I'm assuming you love this show, I don't think you'd be sending me asks about it if you didn't lol).

Ahh, okay, so I was almost right. I will say that I don't necessarily see Gina crying over the general situation (ie the love triangle that is her, Ricky & EJ) just because I don't think she's even aware that she's in a love triangle at this point. Last season, Gina convinced herself that she was wrong, that Ricky never liked her romantically. She's resigned herself to that, so she still thinks Ricky sees her as just a friend (& probably thinks that letting herself believe otherwise would set her up for yet another heartbreak, so she doesn't even entertain the thought).

I saw the hints weeks ago and I'm still confused by them, to be honest lol. I was thinking the fireworks were probably literal as well, but then I thought, the Blue Team doesn't win (unless that clip of everyone holding up Jet in the season trailer is misleading). & it's not like Gina & EJ would be celebrating their team's loss with fireworks (& I'm pretty sure "fireworks" was used to describe pw, specifically) -- but maybe there is some sort of fireworks display (either for the winning team or just in general for everyone that night. Like, maybe watching fireworks the night of Color Wars is another camp tradition?) and during those fireworks, EJ pulls Gina aside/away from the group (or vice versa) and he tells her he loves her or they have another fight (or as Gina called it, a "one-sided confusion") where EJ brings up Ricky and Gina tries to reassure him that she doesn't have feelings for Ricky anymore and/or Ricky has never liked her back.

Typing this out made me think of something, actually. How interesting would it be if pw was far enough away from the display to be able to hear each other clearly without the crackle of the fireworks, but close enough that we can still see them in the background as they talk. So, here they are, having this "explosive" argument while literal explosives (fireworks are considered explosives, right?) are going off in the background. Not only would it look stunning, but fireworks, in the metaphorical sense, can be representative of both romance and anger. Sometimes, when you say "those two have fireworks" it's can be like saying there's a spark between them, some level of romantic attraction going on...but you can also say essentially the same thing and mean it as an argument between 2 people ("put those two together and you'll get fireworks"). So, imagine if EJ tells Gina he loves her (definition 1, the romantic type of firework) and it turns into Gina recognizing that no, EJ doesn't really love her because hiding things, not apologizing, not being very supportive/understanding and not making time for your significant other is not love (definition 2, the argument type of fireworks). It works both visually and metaphorically.

I'm going to look so dumb when all of this turns out to be completely wrong and I've overthought everything and given this literal Disney+ show way too much credit when it comes to symbolism. If anyone sees this post after ep 6 comes out, do us both a favor and pretend that you didn't lol

As for the canoe, that's another confusing one. Even though this camp is called Camp Shallow Lake, they established in the first episode that there's no lake there...so where exactly are they canoeing, in the pool? (I'm kidding lmao) I like your idea of EJ's confession being in the canoe, but (even though I still don't understand where this canoeing is taking place) I actually think it's part of the last game in color wars. When the Yellow Team lifts Jet up, as if to celebrate him having just won the game for them, he's holding an oar. I'm thinking maybe EJ & Gina were representing their team for that last game and their inability to work well together as canoeing partners is what causes their team to lose the game. If this is the case though, I'm not sure why Jet's team would only be lifting him up and not him and whoever his canoeing partner is...but it's still the best theory I've got, so I'm rolling with it for now haha

#not putting this in any of the tags so i can avoid embarrassment if/when i'm totally off base lol #asks #anon #thanks for the ask again!

[illegiblewords]

Doing work rn but a few more Ergo Proxy thoughts very quickly:

- I personally believe, for a number of reasons, that the proxy who killed Donov Mayer and whose arm Re-L shot off was Proxy One and not Ergo Proxy--that said this is one of the points I am extremely unsure about in analysis and I can see it being arguable either way. First, I think the complete lack of speech from the proxy in that scene is there to make it deliberately ambiguous. When Vincent speaks to the body of Monad and to REAL we know that it is him for his mannerisms, for his self-assessment, for his confusion. There is some consistency with who he is as we the viewers have come to know him, although it is possible that it could be Proxy One as he is in many ways a stranger and the base from which Vincent sprung. Of Proxy One we the viewers can know (although the way the narrative is presented makes it fucking hellish to figure out) that Proxy One was in fact clinging to his own city unlike Kazkis or Senex, who destroyed theirs. Proxy One’s city died because of the intervention of MCQ and Raul specifically, not because of his own choice. In response, the first thing Proxy One did was destroy Amnesia, cutting Vincent off from his memories as Ergo Proxy. This was a calculated revenge.

I would argue that it is extremely significant that Ergo Proxy is not blindly murderous as an entity, before or after Vincent gains awareness of him. Ergo Proxy is the Id and the Jungian Shadow of Vincent, his selfishness and his desires and his fears and hatreds but above all else his survival instinct. He makes his choice, repeatedly, not to kill Re-L even when she is a threat to him. This involves integration of the conscious self, the Freudian Ego, and his Superego which involves active consideration of his own identity and values.

Donov Mayer with all of his autoreives worships Ergo Proxy as a god, as something perfect and a means to abandon personal responsibility, choice, and the self. This is something both dangerous and a path to losing humanity, to becoming something truly derivative and empty and dangerous. From this angle, especially given Ergo Proxy’s memories returning and his personal failings as a creator, it would be extremely painful and might make sense for Vincent himself to kill Donov. Additionally, Re-L has foreshadowed throughout the series that she will shoot Vincent, so that poetry is also possible and fitting. And Donov destroyed Mosk, destroyed Monad, rejected Vincent time and time again as an anonymous immigrant.

However, I think frankly that Vincent’s identity as a simple human seeing the purely human aspect of the scene was not sufficiently present for it to make sense being him. In losing his memories Vincent actually severed himself from the purely postmodern and his role within a world built on postmodernism, allowing him to see the reality of life and existence and direct personal experience stripped of symbolism. It allowed him to connect to other people and to understand them only as people, not as flawed creations or test subjects. On a literal level, Donov Mayer is Re-L’s grandfather on whose behalf she was pleading, and he was a broken man victim of the schemes of departed humans no less than Ergo Proxy himself, and he was ancient and dying and desperate and had lost himself utterly.

I could see Proxy One killing Donov as revenge for his own city, as an attempt to destroy the postmodern doom that reigned over himself and the cloned humans of all cities, of despair in the false-godhood he and Ergo Proxy share, of a sign of spite against Re-L who he does not love and whose bond with Vincent he is incapable of understanding as a creature of postmodernism. And I could see him sparing Re-L to make her wonder, for the rest of her life, just who she shot and if Vincent is capable of murder born from hate and of lying to her. In this way it is also a gesture of spite against Vincent, who he wants to succeed but who he also is overwhelmingly jealous of. Because Vincent has the possibility of survival and faith and reality while Proxy One never will.

I think Vincent has too much compassion for the simple, shared experience of living to have killed Donov. I don’t think Proxy One is capable of understanding that. And I think Vincent being integrated in all the ways that matter, having both his identity as Vincent and at least pieces of himself as Ergo Proxy, by necessity cannot be without the literal understanding and his empathy.

That said, again cases can be made for either reading lol. The storytellers were deliberately vague on that scene.

- Jung sort of talks about this but contemporary psychology definitely does, human beings are not tabula rassas like John Locke theorized. Our memories make a very large part of who we are but they are not actually everything and we are not born empty to be shaped solely by society. Our very genetics might make some of us more talkative while others are more withdrawn, some disposed toward this illness and others not, some of us having personality disorders and others healthy, and so on to massive degrees. We inherit from those who came before and we reconfigure ourselves into something new from their genes in a unique sequence. There is a particular line I might actually reblog later from Ergo Proxy that talks about how we are the sum of our memories and if we have no memories we are not ourselves. Scientifically this is actually incorrect and I think it is something that would be interesting to see examined in fic or a prequel or a sequel to be honest.

Ergo Proxy was intellectually bound to his role and had his identity under horrible artificially imposed pressures, but it’s very reasonable and even realistic to believe that Ergo Proxy pre-amnesia would have had a lot in common with Vincent at his base personality. He probably did get embarrassed about things and had a high level of sincerity, he probably overthought a lot and worked very hard, he probably had points he withdrew, he probably tried to push his personal self aside to fulfill the role he thought he was meant for. I’d bet money he was left-handed, too. I think the presence of a highly intellectual voice in Vincent’s head trying to remind him of the practicality of certain things and the impossibility of others is consistent with Ergo Proxy as well. How much various traits manifested proportionally probably reflected memories and environment, but I don’t think the Ergo Proxy would have seemed like a complete stranger or a blindly murderous monster the way Vincent feared at times. Honestly, Monad probably shared qualities with Re-L and REAL too, although that might take closer scrutiny. For them, I think truth and compassion are probably heavily intertwined values consistent across all three but manifesting differently due to experience.

- I actually think it’s very ambiguous what Vincent plans to do with respect to the returning humans. Proxy One wanted revenge, and Vincent calls himself the proxy of death in his last line, but I think Vincent impulsively complying with a scheme someone else made for him would detract in a way. The humans returning are the descendants of the humans who left rather than the same specific people, and holding them responsible for an inherited crime is not honest or spiritually human behavior. It would be like blaming clones, or autoreives, or proxies. I think what Vincent is as the proxy of death ties more to say, death in tarot. He tears down the structures that exist (in this case artificial postmodern structures) so that something new can be born from the ashes. This parallels off of the role of proxies in ending the polluted, artificially corrupted world so that true life and habitable nature can return. Ergo Proxy is the equalizer, he is change, he is biology and inevitable traditions.

- I think Re-L leaving in a final battle she could not make a physical difference in shows her faith in Vincent and her acknowledgment that it is his fight to win or lose, not hers. She tells him to find her again as a mark of confidence. I think it’s relevant that she also goes to try and first see if she can make a difference for Romdeau, then when that fails to wrap up her own affairs with Daedalus and ensure her own survival rather than being a burden. Tradition, faith (Re-L’s last line is even “I have faith” in the dub, this is not strictly religious so much as belief in some greater force than herself or any one individual), and communal bonds are not broken IMO by her trusting Vincent to his fight. She has responsibilities of her own. As a series Ergo Proxy is simultaneously postmodern and a vocal rejection of postmodernism IMO, from start to finish. Pino’s choice not to wait around uselessly but to address her own responsibilities and loose ends parallels in a similar way. All people have responsibilities to themselves as well as to one another, and there are some situations that we can only face ourselves. Re-L, Vincent, and Pino all have trust in each other’s strength to face the individual obstacles and to still be there for each other in their aftermath. And by each facing individual struggles alone, Vincent, Re-L, and Pino are also cut from the same cloth of humanity and are shown to be very similar after all. That’s how it is in real life, after all--we can lean on each other and offer advice, but ultimately we do all have our own choices to make.

#Ergo Proxy #sometimes gotta talk deep shit yo #seriously though this is where my college degree went haha