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mittensmorgul · 4 years

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Hello. Is there a chance that you know when the decision about Chuck beeing the villain of the entire show was made? And more specifically was season 9 written with this point of view?

Hi there! I’m sorry this has been sitting in my inbox for a few days, but I’ve been turning it over and over in my head trying to figure out how to actually answer. Because I don’t think this is something that was like the writers just suddenly decided, and began plotting everything else in the story around that fact, you know? And while it might be interesting to puzzle over, it doesn’t affect how I personally engage with the show.

I’ve written many times about the difference between a Watsonian Reading of a text versus a Doylist Reading of a text, and why sometimes understanding the Doylist might inform the watsonian read you’re willing to accept, so I can understand the interest in wondering if there was a moment in the writing room where it was declared that Chuck Was Not A Good Guy, and that the entire story should be told with that underlying assumption. For me, personally, it’s been clear since 4.18 that Chuck was not really a good guy, long before it was revealed that he was really God.

Was this always the intent of the writers? We just don’t know. I don’t think it matters. He always came across to me (ESPECIALLY in 5.22) as a self-important dick... but I know a lot of people really love his monologue on everything, and have always had rather warm feelings about it. So was their intent to make him seem smugly self-satisfied from the start, or is that an angle that later showrunners and writers seized upon and played up? Does it even matter when the story has made it clear now that Chuck has been the villain of the entire show from the start?

I understand how my personal opinion from the start here has probably made it easier for me to roll with the more recent canon revelations about Chuck than it would be for folks who have always believed that Chuck was a Good Guy from the start, that God would ultimately be on their side, or that if God wasn’t actively helping them, it was only because he was testing them or having them prove themselves to themselves or whatever. I understand people have clung to the notion that he was essentially still a good guy, even through all the shadiness. I just... could never see him that way.

ESPECIALLY after s11. I don’t think Chuck’s characterization has really changed since then. It’s just been... unmasked for what it really is. I think everything Chuck The Prophet was saying back in 4.18 about being a cruel and capricious god was... pretty on the nose. Then again, I’m fairly sure that Andrew Dabb took over the showrunning duties in mid-s11, and began setting up what he knew would eventually become the series endgame run, with Chuck as the final big bad. So that run up to the end of s11... was Dabb’s doing...

I don’t really know how much Chuck’s character (his fictional being, in addition to just... his personality, like how we’d talk about the character of real people, the quality of his essential being or whatever) played a part in the writing from 5.22 when he “vanished” through 10.05 when he appeared to tell Marie “not bad” at the end of her musical, and then again from that point until he dragged Metatron to the bar at the end of the universe in 11.20. I’m fairly certain that as soon as they began writing s11 and determined that Amara would be “God’s sister” that they knew that Chuck would have to make an appearance eventually. And the entire storyline of the MoC having been derailed and repurposed in mid s10 likely facilitated the escalation of the story. But again... I’ve written heckloads of stuff about s10, the accordion plot, how Carver had been writing toward a series finale in 10 until they got word they’d be renewed and wanted to keep going, and jerked the whole story onto a completely different narrative track in the back half of s10. As a seasonal arc, s10 will forever be my least favorite, because it’s just... a mess. Yes, even s6 comes across more coherent than s10, just looking at the overarching narrative structure. Episode wise, s10 probably wins for a few stellar entries, but yeeeeeesh, it’s a structural disaster overall.

But I have a tag for that, and lots and lots of posts, and Carver himself saying that this was exactly what happened there, so... I think it’s probably valid to say that the writers really hadn’t even thought much about Chuck until the MoC became about the Darkness in 10.23, and then they had to invent a whole mythology to bring in this super-powerful God-level power to the story, and “God’s sister!” sounded like a solid plan...

So I’d say that Chuck was being set up at that point to have to answer for his “original crime” of locking up the Darkness, you know? Though I don’t know how much of how it played out by the end of s11 was Carver’s doing, or Dabb’s. I am fairly certain that from the moment Dabb took over (quietly mid-s11, and possibly knowing he’d be tapped to take over before then and beginning to lay down tracks toward his eventual story plan, and then completely by 11.23) that what we’re seeing play out in s15 was always his intent.

But in s9? I don’t think Chuck was really even on any of the writers’ radar, at all. Even if they all were working from the perspective that he was God in the Supernatural universe. I just don’t think it affected what they were writing, you know?

Well, I mean, there’s earlier episodes where God was referenced... I mean 5.16 Dark Side of the Moon (hey, written by Dabb!) where we learned that God knew all about their problems, but he didn’t think it was HIS problem... I mean from that moment on, it’s really difficult to think of God as a charcacter who’s on their side, you know? And the end of the story he’d been content with was Sam in Hell for eternity, and Dean miserable in suburbia for eternity, and Cas probably being subjugated by Heaven and the Apocalypse starting again anyway... I mean... ew...

Or in 6.20, when Cas prayed to God, begging for a sign, begging for help, to do the right thing, he got NOTHING in return, zip, zilch. He did the only thing he could, and in retrospect, wasn’t releasing the leviathans something Chuck was probably deliriously happy about? More monsters and mayhem! A beloved hero character becoming the villain in the process! I mean, in s9 when Metatron was “Playing God” and trying to write his own story of the universe, isn’t this exactly the story he wanted to create too? Kinda on the nose there, even if they weren’t actively portraying Chuck himself as the bad guy here. They were explicitly telling us that Metatron was literally rewriting God’s playbook as self-insert fanfic.

So even if they weren’t actively writing Chuck as the big bad, they used Metatron-- the scribe of God-- to fulfill that function. In 11.20, when Chuck talks with Metatron about his turn playing God:

CHUCK: You know, you really are a terrific editor, Metatron.METATRON: (Chuckles.) Well, I was a terrible writer. A worse god. It's good I've got something going for me.CHUCK: (Takes off his glasses and stops typing.) Yeah, you know, I have to say, I didn't see the whole evil-turn thing coming.METATRON: Mm-hmm.

CHUCK: (Chuckling.) Why did you try to be me?METATRON: That was just a sad, pathetic cry for attention.CHUCK: (Chuckling.) Who's attention were you trying to get?METATRON: Yours.

He takes all of this and tries to turn it around, to deflect blame from himself as if he hadn’t literally done everything Metatron did, and more.

METATRON: It wasn't just the saps who were praying to you. The angels prayed, too. And so did I – every day.CHUCK: I know.METATRON: You want to sell the best-selling autobiography of all time? You explain to me – Tell me why you abandoned me. Us.CHUCK: Because you disappointed me. You all disappointed me.METATRON: (Stands up and looks at CHUCK with wet eyes.) No, look. I know I'm a disappointment, but you're wrong about humanity. They are your greatest creation because they're better than you are.(CHUCK starts to look more guilty as he looks at METATRON.)METATRON: Yeah, sure, they're weak and they cheat and steal and... destroy and disappoint. But they also give and create and they sing and dance and love. And above all, they never give up! But, you do!

But even after Metatron’s sacrifice, even after everything nearly falls apart, Chuck STILL tries to weasel out of responsibility for anything, still tries to deflect and minimize, even blames Amara for why he had to lock her away in the first place. And that hasn’t changed about him one whit, from the start right through the present. It’s always been an essential part of his character, and he’s been called out on it repeatedly in s15 by Becky, by Amara, by Sam, by Dean... probably by Michael, too. Like... this is how he’s always been, it’s how he’s always been written, even if the intent had never been to explicitly unmask him as the ultimate big bad of the entire series until the end of s11.

Like Amara accused him in 11.22:

Chuck: I'm sorry. For this, for everything.Amara: An apology at last. What's sorry to me? I spent millions of years crammed in that cage... alone... and afraid, wishing -- begging for death, because of you! And what was my crime, brother?!Chuck: The world needed to be born! And you wouldn't let me! Amara, you give me no choice.Amara: That's your story. Not mine. The real reason you banished me, why I couldn't be allowed to exist... you couldn't stand it. No, we were equals. We weren't great or powerful, because we stood only in relation to each other. You think you made the archangels to bring light? No. You made them to create lesser beings, to make you large, to make you Lord. It was ego! You wanted to be big!

and he admitted to Becky in 15.04:

CHUCK: Things were said. Uh… Now I’ve found msyself low on, um… resources. I went to ask my sister for help, and she rejected me. ‘Cause she sucks. And now I’m just… stuck. So, I thought I’d come see you, my number-one fan. And, I don’t know, see if you can help make me feel big again.BECKY: So, you want me to… fluff you?CHUCK: I mean, no.BECKY: You do. You thought you could just come back to me, your pathetic ex, your number-one fan, and get what you’ve always gotten from me… a nice big crank on your ego.

Meanwhile, in 11.22, Amara had asked him if he wouldn’t change, why should she? Yet... she DID change, beginning in 11.23 when she reconciled with Chuck. Only... he never did change at all.

So... to finally circle back to your question again... I don’t know if it’s relevant what the writers were thinking about Chuck and any random potential for him to return to the story in any capacity, let alone as God, let alone as the eventual Ultimate Series Big Bad back when they were writing s9. I don’t even think God/Chuck was on their radar at all, because I don’t think the entire MoC storyline was crafted with the end result that it would be the key to the Darkness’s prison. At least not way back in s9 when the MoC was dreamed up. It only ever evolved into that because of the narrative disaster of the s10 plot accordion. Which is why, while I fucking HATE s10 for it, I can’t be all that mad about what it unwittingly brought about, either.

Heck I hope any of this makes any sense whatsoever. This is one of those subjects that’s just like “insert key, wind mittens up, watch her go” :’D

#chuck's process #dabb vs cars #carver era #mittens makes peace with s10 via dabb's spitewriting of s12: an ongoing saga #Anonymous

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