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karamazovdmitri · 3 years

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Ive noticed people seem to admire ivan a lot and when they say “oh i relate to him” its their inner desire to find themselves in him somehow, to have his depth and complex world.

Remember in the beginning of the book ivan was more passive and wasnt introduced like the other two brothers were. He was the typical smart guy whos edgy and serious and all. And thats it until later on in the book. “See, i dont seem like much neither however i am complex like he is too. I am more than what i seem to be/what people give me credit for.”

But he is actually the hardest person to relate to. Like sure you can support his opinions and all, but ive seen people who say “oh im just like ivan” and arent but hes who they want to be. Its very interesting. He is really unique.

Also he deserved much better than katya

hey anon first of all thank you for the ask!! second of all............ im gonna say it from the get-go, im not sure im entirely with you here but lets talk.

so first of all, i definitely agree that ivan is the most lowkey of the brothers when first introduced, ive talked about that before and ive also joked about dostoevsky perfectly illustrating middle child syndrome there lmao so im on board with you, not the biggest impression at first, but he comes back and makes up for it big time in my opinion (ive said it before but despite him not being my favorite character, a lot of my favorite chapters of the book are ivan-centric ones) and i have to say... i cant bring myself to agree with the portrait you paint of him. sure i have called him edgy and whatnot before, and joke about it, but to me its more of a persona, an image? he might look smart and edgy, but i think once you’ve gone through pro and contra, it’s really hard to still pin him down as that. he’s not being your typical idk reddit atheist or whatever, im not gonna get into that specifically but returning the ticket etc etc, he has some fundamental moral disagreements that make him imo, the opposite of edgy. one of his big arguments is that if suffering is necessary thats one thing, but why have children be a part in it? he goes on so much about how its unacceptable for him that children must suffer, that they are not only allowed to suffer, but that they have to, and you know how it goes theres more than one chapter centering around that. and like to me, someone who cares so deeply about something like that i just cant in 100% good faith call edgy. there’s also the quote where he talks about how the sticky little leaves and the blue sky are so dear to him, and he literally says “i will be drunk with my own tenderness” and i just think.... if after that chapter you still think of ivan as a cold, serious, edgelord type, you really should reread it, because ivan is so deeply caring and human, and i think book V really is the turning point in showing us that. ANYWAY lmao that went on a bit longer than planned but i just believe that like... it’s really easy to misread ivan, while after all he is simply 23 years old and confused and desperately searching for answers, and answers that will stand his moral test. unlike his brother, he can’t just thrive off faith, despite the fact that personally i feel like he wishes he could, but that’s where you get more of the “rational” mind feel to him, but that doesnt make him all edge and no point.

as for if he’s easy or not to relate to..... personally i cannot dictate that. ive said lately that being 23 myself, the passages on youth and youth carrying you through everything but feeling like it might all come crashing down in your thirties is extremely relatable to me. as someone who has some gripes with my own faith, some of his questionings are very relatable. and people can relate to his personality too, personally i do not as much, and being the first born of 3 siblings, i cannot relate to the middle child thing he has going on either, but im sure some people can. there’s many ways to relate to a character. that being said i do agree that maybe some people say theyre just like him while they want to be like him, im not doubting that this exists so yeah i’ll give that to you, but i dont think its necessarily bad. i think you can be like Oh i relate to his mindset, to this situation of his, and kinda. hope to absorb through osmosis what he does lmao

anyway not to drag this on forever, but at the end of the day i just think, ivan is SO much more than just an intellectual with his complex little opinion. just like his brothers, he has scars from a tumultuous childhood and the thing that plagues them all, which is: are you doomed to be a karamazov, is there no escape to it? he might seem externally more stable, but i think the more the book goes on the clearer it gets. ivan is not an entirely rational being, he IS very complex and deep for sure, and to me he’s also deeply human, with questions that i think a lot of people found themselves asking as well, and yeah idk how somehow along the way this became the Defending Ivan Karamazov Manifesto lmao but as i say.... just because i dont personally mention him as often as the other two, i still have so much deep love for him. also as for your last statement i honestly wont get into it because thats kinda besides the point and im still finding myself picking at ivan and katya’s relationship in each of my rereads i will say that it is a fascinating one to me though

SO? sorry i went on for SO LONG lmao i didnt plan on to but here we are, and i just want to say, this is really not to be read with a hostile tone or anything i think everyone can have their interpretation of the character but personally i just find it a little reductive to say he has nothing going on for him (”thats it”) while he has some of the most memorable and thought-inducing chapters imo, but yeah if i didnt scare you away youre always free to come back i just love discussing that book!!! and thank u again for the ask it was nice to get to talk about ivan for once lmao

#asks #anon #anonymous #im not even gonna check how many words ive written there im embarrassed lowkey #xz #Anonymous #OKAY this is an afterthought but anon if u had presented me with the same thesis BUT with alyosha instead #as in like.... ppl WISH they were alyosha but dont *RELATE* to him bc theyre not him they just wish they were #i wouldve been A LOT more inclined to agree with you so? like i get where youre coming from i just dont think its applicable to ivan to me

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