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fromtheseventhhell · 8 months

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I want to make a longer post about this someday but: I think Arya's TWOW arc is going to include her coming to terms with her identity as a Lady. This has been an ongoing conflict with her since her first chapter and I think her flowering in winds is going to mark a turning point. The theory of her having an apprenticeship with the courtesans holds a lot of weight and the idea of Arya going through puberty among a group of unconventional women she's fostered a positive relationship with is just too perfect. It would really have an impact on Arya reconciling her personal idea of what a Lady should be. There's also a lot that she could learn from them in terms of courtesies, communication, appearances, body-language, etc. that would elevate her current skill-set and ways her relationship with them could push the plot.

Not to mention she will undoubtedly reclaim her identity as Arya Stark, and her being a Lady is inseparable from that. Arya Stark is a Lady Stark and being a Lady is a social position, not a measure of how well someone preforms feminine tasks. She shouldn't have to relinquish her position because she doesn't fit patriarchal standards. That's not to say that she's ever going to be the perfect example of a traditional Lady but what I think will happen is that she becomes capable of playing the part. She plays several identities throughout the series but she's always been Arya underneath, so I think it's appropriate that she learns to adopt a "persona" that's part of her. Her remembering Ned putting on his "Lord's face" (+ the various examples of other characters being separate from their ruling persona) makes me think that Arya will be donning her "Lady's face" when she makes a return to Westeros.

#arya stark #asoiaf #twow speculations #Arya has been through so much traumatic shit and I think her flowering is going to bring up a lot of her self-esteem issues #I just really need her surrounded by kind older women when that happens so she can have some comfort #George saying her arc in braavos could be the plot of a YA novel?? definitely makes me think she's going to grow up a lot there #she's already one of the most mature characters so I think part of it's going to be her accepting her duty as a Stark Lady #she wants to help and protect people and the best way she can do that is if she has political power #She could learn that first hand in TWOW #possibly through her finding out about her marriage??? and meeting Jeyne in Braavos??#and before someone says it courtesans are so much more then sex work so I don't want to hear it #they are such a big part of Braavosi high life...they're cultured and connected with very important people #I just have so many thoughts on the subject cause I think her apprenticeship with them will serve multiple purposes #the faceless men and their plans...the iron bank...the sealord...It's all connected and I think her apprenticeship with them will kick off #the braavos plot and could mark the beginning of the end of her time with the faceless men and in braavosi #half a boy half a wolf pup -> half a lady half a wolf #I think her current skillset fits well and it's likely she'll learn even more in TWOW #Arya defining her own role as a Lady and becoming comfortable means so much to me

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jackoshadows · 3 years

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@nymerias-heart suggested a while back that we do some TWoW speculation while waiting for the next book.

So I was wondering if ASoIaF readers on here could reblog the character list below with the chapter count they think each character would get in The Winds of Winter. Would be really interesting to see this. If we have enough data we could do some statistics.

ADwD was already a big book with 16 POVs and 73 chapters. Jon had the maximum with 13 and several characters had 1 or 2 chapters. In TWoW, GRRM has to fit in 20 POV characters and cover a lot of ground and story. And we only have two books left to finish the story.

The list is below. Just enter the number of chapters next to character names. You can also enter 0, if you don’t think the character will have a POV chapter.

I’ll go first.

Aeron Greyjoy... 3

Areo Hotah ...2

Arianne Martell ... 3

Arya Stark ...8

Asha Greyjoy ...3

Barristan Selmy ...4

Bran Stark ...8

Brienne of Tarth ...3

Cersei Lannister ...6

Daenerys Targaryen ...7

Davos Seaworth ...4

Jaime Lannister ...3

Jon Snow ...3

Jon Connington ...3

Melisandre ...4

Samwell Tarly ..3

Sansa Stark ...4

Theon Greyjoy ...5

Tyrion Lannister ...7

Victarion Greyjoy ...3

POV chapter count: 86

Prologue: GRRM has mentioned that we will see Jeyne Westerling. Which means this will be in the Westerlands. We may see Edmure Tully and possibly the Blackfish through this prologue.

Epilogue: The Wall and the arrival of the Others.

Location wise split of above chapters:

Essos/Vaes Dothrak/Meereen/Yunkai/Dany landing in Westeros: 21

The North: 12

Braavos/Arya in Westeros: 8

Beyond the Wall: 8

The Wall: 7

Stormlands/Young Griff’s campaign to KL: 6

King’s Landing: 6

Riverlands: 6

Oldtown: 6

Vale: 4

Dorne:2

Total: 88 chapters up from the 73 chapters in ADwD. The chapters could be of shorter length though, if GRRM cuts down on descriptions of feasts and travelogues. This is where his editor could massively help and GRRM has mentioned going back and tweaking things. For example, that Arianne sample chapter from TWoW would have her get to Young Griff instead of spending two chapters just traveling.

If we look at word counts:

A Game of Thrones: 4082 words per chapter (298k in 73 chapters)

A Clash of Kings: 4657 (326k in 70 chapters)

A Storm of Swords: 5171 (424k in 82 chapters)

A Feast for Crows: 6522 (300k in 46 chapters)

A Dance with Dragons: 5781 words per chapter (422k in 73 chapters)

He needs to go back to AGoT chapter lengths and then perhaps the limitations of book binding would not be a problem.

Here is also a link to confirmed POV chapters in TWoW. But note that this may have changed since GRRM did state in a recent notablog post that he was going back and changing things - combining chapters, splitting them, rewriting them etc.

Arya: 4

Tyrion: 3

Barristan: 3

Arianne: 3

Melisandre: 2

Theon: 2

Aeron: 2

Areo Hotah: 2

Cersei: 2

Asha: 2

Jon Connington: 2

Sansa: 1

Victarion: 1

Bran: 1

Daenerys: 1

Davos: 1

Confirmed Chapters: 33

Below the cut I have put in some of my reasoning for my POV counts.

First, I think GRRM needs to refocus on his main story and characters and make his way to the ending. That means more focus on main characters and less time spend on secondary characters. He should be spending time getting Arya, Bran, Jon, Dany and Tyrion etc. to their endgames rather than spend more time world building and telling the stories of secondary characters.

For example, Bran had like 3 chapters in Feast and Dance while Brienne got 8! Who is the more important character here? There are two books left, Bran has to finish training, find out stuff about the Others, explore lands of always winter, return south of the wall, meet back up with Jon and Arya, play a big part in defeating the Others and become King.

GRRM has written material for an entire book with Arya in Braavos. Unfortunately ASoIaF is not about Arya’s FM adventures in Braavos and Arya needs to get back to Westeros. So George has chop, cut, edit and narrow down her story there to like maybe 5 chapters before she leaves.

So either George cuts out a lot of the fat, travelogues, world building and secondary characters or he needs 8/9 books to finish or he can change his endings to suit what he has written now or he can procrastinate and just not write.

Some of the things GRRM has said regarding TWoW.

GRRM teases about events in TWOW in this interview

“I think we’re gonna start out with a big smash with the two enormous battles,” Martin says. Presumably one of those battles refers to the clash between Ramsay’s army and Stannis’s forces in the North (the outcome of which was described in Ramsay’s letter in ADWD—perhaps falsely?—but not actively shown), while the other takes place across the narrow sea when Yunkai attacks Meereen in an attempt to overthrow Daenerys. In addition, Martin says, “We have more deaths, and we have more betrayals. We have more marriages.” Let the speculation begin. As he’s noted before, Martin says the Dothraki are coming back into the story (“in a big way”), and he says “a lot of stuff is happening at The Wall.”

From his Notablog updates:

06/23/2020

Of late I have been visiting with Cersei, Asha, Tyrion, Ser Barristan, and Areo Hotah. I will be dropping back into Braavos next week. Now you will have to excuse me. Arya is calling. I think she means to kill someone.

08/11/2020

Of late I have been spending a lot of time with the Lannisters. Cersei and Tyrion in particular. I’ve also paid a visit to Dorne, and dropped in to Oldtown a time or three. In addition to turning out new chapters, I’ve been revising some old ones (some very old)… including, yes, some stuff I read at cons ages ago, or even posted online as samples. I tweak stuff constantly, and sometimes go beyond tweaking, moving things around, combining chapters, breaking chapters in two, reordering stuff.

08/15/2020

For the nonce, it is what it is. My life is at home, on hold, and I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty. And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos.

Now, there are three things that GRRM just has to get done in TWoW, IMO.

Daenerys Targaryen has to resolve her Essos plot and get to Westeros by the end of TWoW.

Arya has to resolve her Braavos plot and get to Westeros

Bran has to advance a great deal in his plot/Bloodraven/Others etc.

(Note: I suspect this is one of the reasons that TWoW is taking so long. By his own admission, Dany and Bran are the two characters GRRM finds hardest to write and my speculation is that there is a lot of these two characters in the next book.)

So I am going to assign Arya and Bran the most POV chapters - let’s say 8 each since they are the only POVs at their locations. The Essos plot is a complicated mess, but we have other POVs focused on there as well - Tyrion, Barristan and Victarion. And Tyrion will no doubt get a good chunk of chapters because GRRM likes to write for him and finds it easy to write for him.

For Oldtown I am assigning 6 chapters - 3 from Sam’s POV and 3 from Aeron giving us a look into what Euron is upto. Or it could be 4 for Sam and 2 for Aeron.

I suspect not much happening in Dorne until they align with Young Griff. Arianne and Jon Connington with a look into fAegon’s campaign advancing into KL. Some Vale stuff with Sansa and LF.

GRRM mentions spending a lot of time with Cersei and Tyrion. Cersei remains the only POV in KL and that’s an important location. Jaime and Brienne are together so GRRM can use either of them for Lady Stoneheart/the Brotherhood/Riverlands.

Lots happening at the wall. Big battles in the North and the resolution of the Northern plot - Theon/Asha with Stannis and Davos with Rickon/Northerners. I am not sure if Jon will get a POV - so I am giving him just 3 in case. I think the majority viewpoint will be Mel.

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fromtheseventhhell · 7 months

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Sometimes I wonder if it even makes sense for Arya's first stop back in Westeros to be in the Riverlands. I feel the same way as Arya's response to the Kindly Man when he offers to get her on a ship leaving for Duskendale and Gulltown. She just got there from the Riverlands, what point is there to go straight back? Especially with the way it seems to become a meandering hell for every POV there lol. What developments in TWOW would motivate her to go there? I can really only think of wanting to reunite with Nymeria, or if the faceless men are touchy about cheating death and put a mark on either Lady Stoneheart or Jon that she either has to fulfill or prevent.

It's just when I see actual Arya fans speculate on her TWOW arc it's about running into Jeyne and finding out what's been going on in the North through her name, finding out about Jon's death or resurrection, something to do with the Hardhome wildlings, Bran watching Nymeria through the trees and maybe contacting her the same way he did with Jon, discovering what's going on with the Sealord and maybe getting in his favor, anything involving the keyholders and the Iron Bank, potentially discovering secrets about the red door or even the Sailor's Wife being Tysha, a climax involving the Uncloaking of Uthero... almost everything I can think of would point her back north, to claim herself as the true Arya Stark or getting revenge for Jon's death. Or wanting to reunite if she hears of his resurrection before leaving Braavos.

The only benefit I can think of for landing in the Riverlands first thing is going up through the Neck and meeting Howland Reed. He could give her Robb's will and laugh if she tells him she found out Jon's mother is Wylla through Ned Dayne lol. I want her to meet Lady Stoneheart as much as anyone, but I would prefer Lady Stoneheart stick around long enough to reunite with both Arya and Jon. I don't want the gift of mercy to be given to her before that happens.

See, the tricky part about speculating on Arya's TWOW arc is that she has so many plot connections that it's difficult to imagine that she'll be able to fulfill them all. Arya going to the Riverlands first and ending her story in Winterfell/The North is a way of hitting as many of those connections as possible. I don't think that Arya going to the Riverlands is confined to her antis because a lot of Arya stans make the same speculation, but I do think too many people discount the possibility of her going North. She has several plot connections there in her proxy marriage, Jon dying for her, her connection to Bran (seemingly highlighted in ADWD and hinted at in TWOW), her personal connection to Roose, the likelihood of her encountering Jeyne, her connection to the magical plot, etc. It's also, like you mentioned, unlikely that she intentionally sets out to travel to the Riverlands. George could continue her "never seemed to find the places she set out to reach" and she could get knocked off course, but even then there are other places she could end up. There's a good case for her traveling to both places, or even somewhere new, but there's just too much in the air to say definitively.

#ask #anon #arya stark #personally I think there's a good chance she goes North but a better one that she goes to the riverlands #because I doubt she'll set out to make it to the riverlands again unless she somehow? hears about Lady Stoneheart #In TWOW she'll learn Bran + Rickon are alive that Jon has died and of /her/ marriage to Ramsey which are all connected to the Northern plot #and I think that would do more to push her plot forward just as well as going to the riverlands #I do think th elong night will filter into the riverlands though and that makes me think that she'll be going there first #or she could find herself somewhere inbetween #my best guess is that she sets out for the North gets knocked off course and finds herself closer to the riverlands #there's just a lot to speculate and we won't KNOW until we get TWOW so it's hard to say #either way she's gonna have a whole arc in Braavos and I'm so excited to see it after the slop D&D gave us #speculating for Arya is so hard and fun cause there are so many ways that it could go #either way I need a reunion between Arya and Nymeria at some point

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