#richard brenner

[aemiron-main]

September 8th 1979 at 3:46 PM: How The Hell Was Brenner Watching 001 Get Banished Before It Even Happened? (And Hell, Brenner Shouldnt Even Be Conscious Right Now Let Alone Bloodless And Unscarred)

So, this tweet from 8flix Nick has always haunted me:

And now, I’ve got some realizations about this shot and why it’s so telling and also very bizarre.

So, I went to the Papa script section for this shot:

And there’s some VERY weird stuff here.

So, the key things to keep in mind for this shot/script snippet:

1.) It’s 3:46 PM on September 8th, 1979 (the day and year of the massacre)

2.) Brenner has no blood on his face and no scar on his face at 3:46 PM on September 8th 1979.

Now, when I saw that clip of Brenner watching El banish 001, I wondered “was Brenner watching the banishment live rather than afterwards?” but then I realized- not only was he watching it live, he was technically watching it before it even fucking happened!

How do I know this? Well.

Look at the clock during the massacre- BEFORE 001 is sent to Dimension X, BEFORE the events that Brenner watched on the TVs at 3:46 PM:

The clock says 3:46 PM. The exact time that the script says that Brenner was watching 001 get sent to Dimension X- and yet, that hasn’t even happened yet at 3:46 PM.

(Also, one of the other things that reinforces the idea that Brenner was somehow watching this live/not just watching an old tape of it is the fact that the footage has no time stamp- unlike the tape footage he shows El in the nina bunker)

And then also, Stav reminded me of what I talked about in this post with how the clock is frozen during the massacre- which, not only is that another layer of weirdness, but even with the clock being frozen, that still implies that 3:46 has passed before 001 was sent to Dimension X/that it was 3:46 when the clock froze at the beginning of the massacre scenes (and therefore that Brenner shouldnt have been able to watch that footage at 3:46 PM) and/or that time itself was entirely frozen at 3:46 PM which is a whole other can of worms.

And even setting aside the fact that Brenner shouldnt be able to watch that footage because it hasn’t happened yet, there’s also the matter of the fact that Brenner shouldn’t be able to watch that footage because he shouldnt even be fucking CONSCIOUS right now- he should be unconscious in a room with 010, covered in blood with a scar across his face:

After all, in Brenner’s S4 EP1 version of the day of the massacre, he only wakes up and gets into the rainbow room after the massacre is over/after El’s already sent 001 to Dimension X- and we watch him wake up and go straight to the rainbow room, so there’s not even a chance that he SOMEHOW woke up, cleaned himself off, magically healed his wounds/scars, and watched the security cameras before 001 was sent to superhell- it’s not possible, he wasn’t even AWAKE:

On September 8th, 1978 at 3:46 PM, Brenner should be covered in blood and scarred- But he’s not, because here he is, somehow miraculously bloodless and scarless at 3:46 PM on the day of the massacre:

They also cropped this shot of Brenner’s face so that we can’t see which way his hair parts- which, like I’ve talked about in posts like this post and this post, we can differentiate Richard Brenner from Martin Brenner based on what side their hairs parts on, and we ALSO have the elusive middle part Brenner.

So, isn’t it suspicious that they show us Brenner, who SHOULD NOT BE IN THAT PLACE AT THAT TIME, watching something happen BEFORE IT EVEN HAPPENED, and then ALSO don’t show us his hair part?

Not only is there more than one Brenner, but there’s also some sort of bizarre Brenner time fuckery going on here- which reminds me of something I actually put in a youtube video script that I’m working on, which is the idea that Brenner himself may have somehow time travelled during NINA too, seemingly without being in the tank (although if there’s multiple Brenners, who knows if one of them was in a tank tbh).

Because after all, when Brenner talks about El “journeying into the past,” he specifically says “journey WITH ME into the past”:

However I’m not totally solid that he was NINA’d/he seems to have some sort of bizarre innate time weirdness & may even be using some sort of astral projection techniques to do so, but that’s a separate analysis on its own (see: my current draft about the gateway project/gateway technique and MKULTRA).

Anyway. There’s so much here. What the hell is going on?????

And as a final sidenote re: that rainbow room clock, it’s also weird that we never see the clock during the S4 EP1 version of the scenes leading up to the massacre (the version that follows Brenner/shows him unconscious in the room with 010 that day).

We see it here, during the NINA version of things/El’s POV- but not during Brenner’s segment:

Which rattles something about what I talked about in this post re: two different massacre mornings.

Why did they give us such a specific time in the script related to Brenner on the day of the massacre (3:46 PM) but then also completely hid the rainbow room clock from us/hid the time from us during his S4 EP1 version of the day of the massacre?

Something weird as hell is going on here.

#stranger things #martin brenner #st nina project #richard brenner

[aemiron-art]

“Festering”

#stranger things #dr brenner #the first shadow #stranger things art #matthew modine #patrick vaill #stranger things on stage #martin brenner #richard brenner #dr brenner art #aemironart

[henrysglock]

There’s some stuff about Vecna and Vecna's transformation that just throws me off every time.

It starts here. One of them is Substantially Thicker than the other:

Max vs Maxine, the change in speech patterns...there's something Not Right here.

There’s also the question of who keeps slicking his hair back. It's unnatural, it comes loose in the fight and stays loose.

His hairstyle was full-on floppy side-parted Henry. It should not have reverted to slicked back. We have confirmation that Jamie was fully computer generated during the disintegration scene! There's no reason for him to look this way in the zapping scene! He should look exactly the same as he did before...but he doesn't even look like Jamie.

That's not even to mention Brenner being more like DnD Vecna than our current "Vecna", DnD Vecna's NINA-like obelisks:

Bccause, uh...

#maybe i'm delusional. but i'm not. it feels weird and my gut feelings are usually Something. #henry/vecna/001 #edward/vecna/001 #henry creel #edward creel #martin brenner #richard brenner #st costume #st makeup #stranger things

[reikunrei]

"More than just an ordinary human."

It's that time again! Another Doctor Who episode wahoo!! Let's check out season 3, episode 6:

"The Lazarus Experiment"

So, Lazarus is, obviously, taken from the biblical figure of Lazarus who was brought back from the dead by Jesus. The story of his revival is meant to exemplify the power Jesus has over death itself, but I won't be talking about that in-depth here; the Bible-talk is more James's wheelhouse lol.

As it applies to this Doctor Who episode, it's not so much about coming back from the dead, but rather about cheating death. Professor Richard Lazarus has created an invention, which he calls a "miracle" (the same word used by Patty in reference to "Henry's" powers in tfs), that will essentially de-age anyone who steps inside.

(Peeping the fact that he specifically mentions the moon landing like Mr. Clarke mentions it in st3)

However, there's a catch! He didn't do his proper research! He didn't account for all possible variables! And something in his DNA is trying to change him! (Another tfs word! We love to see it!)

Rejuvenating, you say? Even after the Doctor blows up Lazarus in his monster form and he comes out entirely unscathed? Golly, I wonder who that reminds me of! Anyway.

So basically what happened is Lazarus "changed his own molecular patterns" by "hack[ing] into his own genes" which is SUCH a NINA-ass word to use. Don't even remind me of all the computer stuff that's being pushed in the st5 leaks and updates. This has seemingly activated something in his DNA that's trying to make him change, and that "change" is a giant scorpion-like monster that is absolutely ravenous. Before the Doctor and Martha are looking at his DNA, we see a scene of Dr. Lazarus grabbing a finger-food platter from one of the waitstaff at his invention's unveiling and scarfs it down, saying he's famished, which the Doctor isn't surprised by (it's insinuated that he understands, at least loosely, what's happening because of the Time Lord's ability to regenerate, which always wears them out and makes them very energy-hungry).

In his monster form, Dr. Lazarus drains all the "life-energy" out of several human victims in order to sate his hunger, leaving an empty shell. (Insert Vecna consuming his victims to get stronger, insert "Henry" killing animals in tfs to sate the Shadow and it being much more powerful when "he" finally kills Virginia, insert Max being left an empty body without a soul/life, etc. etc., you get the picture. Not to mention that the Doctor equates it to "squeezing the juice out of an orange" ... I wasn't expecting a little st vr connection, but I'll take it!). He has little to no control over his transformation, and while he can feel it coming on, he can't just snap in and out of it; it simply takes over and he changes. The first time we see him transform, he writhes on the ground in agony and his wife asks if it's "some kind of seizure" (smash cut to "Henry" in tfs seizing).

Later, after some running around, being chased, and doing some thinking, the Doctor explains to Martha that this "thing" (Lazarus) isn't alien, it's "strictly human in origin." This form was becoming "dominant" because the process of de-aging himself likely awoke some dormant genes that "evolution rejected...millions of years ago...forgotten until Lazarus unlocked it by mistake."

A big part of this episode is about hubris. Dr. Lazarus is overconfident in his invention, and he spends ample part of the start of the episode dismissing the Doctor and Martha when they both warn him that something may be wrong/this may be more dangerous than he realizes. On top of Dr. Lazarus seeking out youth/prolonged life, much like the idea that Brenner is looking for some sort of power/immortality of some kind in st (barely even touching on the other weird stuff like Brenner not aging in tfs between 1959-1979), a lot of it made me think of El tearing into Brenner in 4.08, especially her emphasis on him being the monster, on all of this being his fault, all because he couldn't let Henry go. Brenner has constantly been presented to us, throughout all mediums, to be fairly stubborn and determined to get what he wants, even if the results are catastrophic (ie. the number of guards and orderlies who have died helping him with his child dungeon project, all of the children themselves dying in one way or another, even his own ass getting jumped by a demogorgon and then shot to bleed out and "die" in the desert).

Which leads into the other core aspect of this episode: humanity.

Throughout all of Doctor Who, the Doctor makes it clear that he finds humans utterly fascinating, especially in their mundanity. He emphasizes the importance of everyone's individuality and tells everyone they're special and important, even if they don't really "do" anything. Simply being who they are is what makes them matter; they don't need to be useful or supply anything groundbreaking in order to be amazing in his eyes. They exist as humans, and that's all that matters.

In this episode, we see Lazarus talk about how humans, as they are now, are basically inferior. While a large part of his motivations are about the money he'll make off of such an invention, we learn later that he has a distinct and deep fear of death and being defenseless against it. He wants to "change what it means to be human," to give them "a chance...to evolve, to improve" and to make sure he never has to face death like he did as a child: terrified and vulnerable.

We get the two following conversations between the Doctor and Lazarus, one at about the midway point of the episode before shit really hits the fan, and the other is near the very end of the episode after shit has really hit the fan.

This next one is split into several pieces to get in all the lines because they say a lot that jumps out as very important and distinctly Brenner, with some smatterings of One's monologue and some Henry-isms, especially from tfs, and the general presence of many of The Words.

I wanna point out that the Doctor being at the London Blitz is a direct reference to the episodes I talked about in my last dw post. And I find it incredibly interesting that a lot of the original tfs promo was heavily centered around church, like how this final standoff is in a cathedral, even so far as having Mr. Newby originally be listed as Father Newby, etc., despite the final play not being as heavy-handed with the religious imagery. Idk it's just itching something in my brain! I also wanna note that, since it's kinda hard to see here, the camera pans around Lazarus in a counterclockwise circle, following the path of the Doctor as he circles him, and we aaall know how st loves to use circling camera shots like that.

I especially want to touch on the second conversation the Doctor and Lazarus have in the church. The Doctor speaks to him calmly, trying to get him to understand and have compassion for the experience that is being human rather than trying to cheat it, and that living an exceptionally long life really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Even though Lazarus is now a "monster," he's still intensely humanized. He's killed at least four people at this point, but the Doctor doesn't go about simply trying to belittle, dehumanize, or kill him.

When it comes to Brenner, unfortunately, we still don't know much about his past, but we have a lot we can assume or extrapolate, at least based off what tfs has told us and the gaps we can fill in from st itself. We know, at least vaguely, that he and his father had a strained relationship. During the opening sequence of tfs on the USS Eldridge, we hear Captain Brenner talking to his other shipmates about how "it's my kid's birthday today, he told me he hates me."

However, later in the show, Brenner tells "Henry" that his father's return from Dimension X and subsequent death because of it compelled him to join Project Rainbow and devote his life to the cause and figure out what happened. With "Henry's" seeming ability to survive being infected by the Shadow, Brenner tries to tap into that. His main goal in tfs is to make contact with the Shadow and figure out what happened to his father, and since it's then explained that he made more children like "Henry" (specifically the immunity to the Shadow/the shared blood that supposedly gives them that immunity), it's clear he's trying to avoid is father's fate in that way. In short, it very much comes off as an attempt to try and cheat death.

Brenner, throughout the show, often presents what he does as good, both for the children in the lab and for humanity as a whole (though specifically for the US, focused on beating back those nasty commies). Even if he does bad things, it's for the greater good! He has good intentions! That's gotta count for something, right? /s

Both Lazarus and Brenner went into their respective experiments because they thought they could become better than human. Or in Brenner's case, at the very least he could live vicariously through his experiments to feel better than human, which was explicitly touched on in the vr game in clips like this one. As we also see in st4, El tries to call Brenner a monster, but when she relays this thinking to Vecna, he rejects it, and calls Brenner "an ordinary, mediocre man."

Shortly after that first conversation I showed between Lazarus and the Doctor on the rooftop, after Lazarus transforms, there's a sequence where, from inside Lazarus's machine, the Doctor is able to reverse the polarity of the capsule so it reflects energy rather than receive it, and it blasts Lazarus away, turning him back into human form and supposedly killing him.

Right away, with this comment from Martha, Lazarus is equated back to an ordinary human. He's not made to be the "big bad villain" where everyone is glad he's dead, nor is he made out to be this reverent being. He's someone to be pitied. It's decidedly solemn. He was just a man out of his depth who bit off more than he could chew... much like how Brenner is a man out of his depth who bit off more than he could chew.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we learned that Brenner was actively harming himself in his attempt to do… whatever. Much like how Lazarus was harming himself (and others) in order to maintain his new youth, Brenner may be harming himself with his experiments. Whether that be via blood transfusions/consuming blood (see the post I linked from Stav above), or by doing something as drastic as physically combining himself with one of the Henwards, I doubt anything 100% good and rewarding could come from it. Even if he's looking for something like regenerative healing, as we see in Vecna and as hinted by Brenner not being dead despite getting jumped by a demogorgon, what does he have to do to reach that point? What risks are there involved that he may not have accounted for, simply because he would have no idea that they exist in the first place? Just looking at the circumstances of the weird Brenward face combo we get in 4.07… he didn’t exactly wind up in a great spot after combining himself, did he? Plus, while I'm of the mind that Vecna and the guy we see shape the Mind Flayer are two different dudes (James and Em have other posts about this as well), the way it's presented to us implies that Vecna evolved from the MF guy, so there's a sort of compounding that changes in his appearance from mostly-human to mostly-infected-by-the-UD, which... also doesn't seem great.

We can already see how being infected by the Shadow affects people, which is highlighted in Henry not sleeping and barely eating when he's flayed. Hell, Brenner saw what happened to his father after he returned from Dimension X, and he took the lives of several test subjects (many of them children) in his own experiments. He already knows that there are risks and detractions in this work.

At the very end of this dw episode, Lazarus is finally actually killed. Using the organ in the church, the Doctor amplifies its sound using his Sonic Screwdriver to create "hypersonic sound waves" in order to interfere with Lazarus on a molecular level, which is more or less the same thing he did with his machine. Lazarus falls from a high balcony within the church, disoriented by the noise, and turns back into a human upon death. He even reverts back to his "correct" elderly appearance as the Doctor kneels over him and gently shuts his eyes.

We've already seen something similar to this sort of death with Brenner in st4. While I wouldn't say it was a soft moment for him, since El was still clearly rejecting him, she still leaned into his touch, still listened to him, and clearly was grappling with a lot of messy feelings. She, in that moment, wanted to view him as a monster, but she couldn't. Not entirely. That's her Papa! That's someone who, for most of her life, despite every horrible thing he did, took care of her; who said he loved her and held her best interests at heart.

In my mind, this sort of "soft end" is what we should expect for Brenner and Vecna in st5. It could be even softer than what we see in st4, because as much as Brenner deserves to have his shit absolutely rocked, we've been increasingly shown that he is only human. Human's are not monsters, but humans can do monstrous things. That doesn't make them inhuman. And, as people like James and Em have spoken extensively about lately, Brenner is likely but one cog in the machine that is the Cycles in this show, and not necessarily the source of the cycles to begin with. He didn't pop outta the womb wanting to build a child torture dungeon, but something happened to bring him there and cloud his judgement.

And even if the death is something more intense and dramatic like that of Lazarus, it's not necessarily something to celebrate, yknow? Even if the threat is gone (which is a very good thing), it took many horrible, avoidable things to get there in the first place, and that's what's tragic.

B-B-B-Bonus Round: Just Some Extra Shit

vs "Henry" going missing in Nevada for 12 hours per tfs. Martha has been on several trips with the Doctor thus far, so there's the added bit of "the passage of time is messed up" seeing as, for her, it's been several days, but to everyone else it's only been 12 hours.

All of the above is so... yeah lol. Lazarus is repeatedly very weird to the two young women in this episode, Martha and her sister Tish, and he even rejects his elderly wife in one scene when she kisses him and he tells her to "look at [her]self." The sniffing thing even made me think of the demogorgon being given the trait of "smelling blood" so... I see you, Brennergorgon.

I could've probably fit this bit somewhere above, but I'm too lazy, so it's going here instead. Love a good boiler room setting and talking about sacrifices!

"Always the mothers" just like how Brenner say it was always the mothers who came to him convinced their children had abilities or issues, etc. (plus just a little context for Martha's mom's "dangerous" comment: this season has an overarching hidden plot about the Master, who I touched on in another one of my dw posts, wherein he basically holds political power over the city (hiding the fact that he's a Time Lord) and is trying to sabotage the Doctor).

#st dw #i say things #martin brenner #richard brenner #stranger things #not as involved as the last one but it offers up some interesting thoughts methinks

[erikiara80]

In S1, Richard Brenner is mentioned twice in the articles about Terry, but we still don't know what really happened to her.

But then in S2, the season in which we see Brenner fry Terry's brain, El finds an article written by Richard Fryer? And we see that name when she looks at Brenner and Terry's photo?

Richard Fryer. Really? Lmao, ok

#terry ives #richard brenner #martin brenner #stranger things

[jaegerisim]

oh my god the st on stage cast is making me insaneeeee aahhh. there is brenner???? and virginia and victor but not alice?? 🤨 also not to mention they don't say if he is MARTIN or RICHARD brenner. just "dr brenner". and where is owens???????? i have so many theories on the subject aahhhh

#byler #henry creel #virginia creel #victor creel #martin brenner #dr owens #richard brenner #stranger things on stage #the first shadow

[v-i-r-i-d-i-a-n]

The amount of Brenners and Henry’s in this show MAKE ME INSANE WHY IS THERE LIKE FIFTY OF EACH

Why are there so many versions of all the characters this is like this time travel movies where the character just keeps going back so there’s like fifty versions of one character at time

#stranger things #martin brenner #henry creel #edward creel #richard brenner #? #I think that’s his main popular one

[himynameis4]

Okok my mans Brenner has a flair for the dramatic but like. For him to be talking like this, not only does he have to have seen Henry kill, he’d have had to study him in the aftermath. Now. We already know Henry murdered his mom (tho there’s some sus af stuff regarding Alice Creel & her “death” that leaves that one up in the air), & most likely wanted to kill his dad & sis, too. But for brenner to be saying this stuff about abilities, memories—less memories, more ABILITIES.

Because Henry could’ve gotten Virginia’s memories. Virginia knew Brenner—it would be easy enough for Brenner to catch on to Henry knowing things ab Virginia & Brenner’s convos that he shouldn’t. But ABILITIES. What abilities could Henry have gained from his mom that Brenner would be talking about? Was Henry abruptly really good at styling his hair like a 50s housewife? (Not likely—unless the shaving-childrens’-heads-trend didn’t catch on ‘til later). Maybe Virginia was a really good juggler?

I have a point, I swear, stay with me. Obviously Brenner COULD’VE been talking about Virginia. But it seems more likely that Henry killed someone else during his time at the lab—BEFORE the Hawkins massacre. Remember the soteria? We know that, immeditaly after killing his family, Henry was weak. His powers were weak. A lot like El after she banished Henry—using excess power, an abrupt drop in power, power needs to be built up… except El lost her memories, while Henry didn’t, and memories are important for channeling power.

Brenner has seen the cycle of regaining power before—it’s probably why he was so confidant he could restore el’s powers by restoring her memories, if he knew memories triggered power (from Henry). Because it was Henry (as 001) remembering something that made him sad, and angry, that allowed him to channel his power. (I need to rewatch some scenes to construct a timeline, because I think there’s a possibility Henry was referring to discovering his powers BEFORE the lab, though a slim one, when he was talking to young El & suggesting she use the memory of her mother being dragged away to channel her power. I don’t think that’s the case, but I wanna rule that possibility out).

We also know that something made it so that Henry was too dangerous to be allowed his power—he had to be given soteria. There’s an argument to be made for Henry being made to kill people by Brenner, used as an assassin the way Sullivan said Brenner wanted to use El (“remote assassination”), but that as Henry murdered those people he gained skills (fighting skills) & intel (from their memories).

But what if it wasn’t a regular person’s regular skills? What if it was someone with powers? Basically—the Hawkins Massacre not being the first time Henry absorbed someone’s powers. & that being the trigger for Henry being given soteria.

(At first I misremembered this scene as Brenner saying he absorbs their POWERS, and I got REALLY excited, but the point still stands. That’s why you gotta rewatch scenes & cite your sources, kids!)

There could be something interesting related to Alice Creel in this—the other sibling being “sensitive” and having powers like her brother (perhaps on a smaller scale, like 002), maybe she survives her brother’s first murder attempt but not the second—

(Seriously check out posts on why alice’s death is so sus idk how to link posts but like. Holy shit).

I imagine this power working like this: the brain is basically a bunch of electrical impulses, kind of? Like, that’s how we store memories, skills, etc. So Henry mimicke those impulses, those electrical patterns, in his own brain, and can interfere with other peoples’ electrical impulses—hence how he messed with Will’s memories, “stole” El’s powers at the end of season 3 (and perhaps even her powers and memories way back after the massacre when she was like 8, and perhaps messed with WILL’S powers in season 1/2, but i’m not sold on that yet). Brenner had it right when he said it was similar to the effects of a stroke—just a targeted, controlled, Henry-induced kind. The connections are all still there.

Then again, Henry’s abrupt loss of power after overextending himself does mirror el’s when she was a child, so perhaps he didn’t mess with her powers then. But it feels likely that he did in season 3… that it wasn’t just because of exhaustion/overextension, it was because of the parasite in her leg. Idk. We’ll see ig, i’m attached to this interpretation atm tho.

Ig im tagging @aemiron-main @wibble-wobbegong @givehimthemedicine & @bottomlessabyssposts bc i enjoy harassing u guys lol. Feel free to share ur thoughts if you want, or not if you don’t! Hope y’all tumblr ppl are having a lovely day, & congrats for getting to the end of this rather long post!

#stranger things #henry creel #alice creel #virginia creel #sam owens #martin brenner #richard brenner #el hopper #stranger things theory #stranger things analysis #vecna #mindflayer #will byers has powers #001 stranger things

[aemiron-main]

The Two Heads of HNL: Richard and Martin As The Demogorgon

So, I think that Brenner is the Demogorgon. Specifically, I think that both Richard and Martin are each meant to represent one of the two heads of the Demogorgon in DND. Hell, Richard Brenner is even literally described as the head of the Narcotics Enforcement Division at HNL.

Keep in mind, the Demogorgon in ST is EXTREMELY different from the Demogorgon in DND. Like. Fundamentally different in almost every way.

Let’s go through some key DND Demogorgon lore that you need to know for this post, and I’ll explain why I think Richard and Martin are meant to represent the Demogorgon.

So, when we look at the Demogorgon from DND, there’s some key things to note:

There’s only one of them. The Demogorgon in DND is not a race of creatures, but instead, is A Guy. A demon, to be specific. And he’s not called “The Demogorgon” so much as he’s just called Demogorgon. Demogorgon is more of a name/title. It’d be like saying “The Steve”.

Demogorgon was the Prince of Demons and has a ton of other titles too, including the Deep Father (staring at Brenner being called “Papa” and literally being deep in the sense of working in the depths of HNL/the lower areas of HNL that we see during NINA), the King of the Deviants (staring at Brenner being a creep/a sexual “deviant”), Tanar’ri Prince and Lord of All that Swims in Darkness (staring at Brenner telling El about her getting lose in the darkness when she goes into the water in the NINA tank and El literally swimming in darkness)

Demogorgon is actually two guys- in one body. The Demogorgon has two heads, each with a distinct personality.

Demogorgon’s two heads are named Aeumal, and Hethradiah. Aeumal, the left head, is the more charismatic and calculating while Hethradiah, the right head, is more impulsive and feral. Each head views the other head as inferior and each believes the other incapable of outsmarting it.

Aameul, the more charismatic and calculating head/ personality, loved deception and wanted to break free from the other head. The more impulsive and feral head/personality, Hethradiah, loved destruction and did not want to be separated.

Demogorgon was a scientist who ran experiments with questionable ethics. The Demogorgon/grey skinned creature in ST gets more compared to a bloodthirsty violent alien creature, whereas Demogorgon in DND is an EXTREMELY intelligent scientist and spellcaster known for his experiments. This is JUST like Brenner- intelligent, cruel scientist who runs experiments with questionable ethics??? That’s Brenner.

Demogorgon conducted multiple experiments. He invented retrievers, ettins, khaastas, and he created the first ever Death Knight. He also invented a plague known as scalepox cloud, a series of clouds of disease mist.

And regarding the fact that the DND Demogorgon created the first ever Death Knight, I talked here about how Kas is namedropped in ST4, and El’s bloody has during NINA vs Kas The Bloody Handed and how Kas The Bloody Handed (the Kas who serves Vecna) was actually a false Kas- specifically, Kas the Bloody Handed was a Death Knight who believed himself to be the real Kas but was not.

And Demogorgon was responsible for the creation of Death Knights, and therefore responsible for the creation of Kas the Bloody Handed/the False Kas, which would track with a.) Brenner having “created” El/being responsible for her existence, and b.) possibly with Brenner having created Edward/being responsible for Edward’s existence, as both El and Henward seem to have Kas references surrounding them.

And regarding the DND Demogorgon inventing a mist/cloud plague, I’m staring DIRECTLY at the lab and the shadow particles and how cloudlike the particles are AND how frequently they’re compared to a virus/disease. Especially considering the parallels between the Russian prison and HNL, and the shadow particles trapped in the Russian prison that get released, I won’t be surprised if HNL/Brenner have released shadow particles before/are responsible for their creation, just like how Demogorgon created created the scalepox cloud.

Now that the DND Demogorgon lore and some of its connections to Richard and Martin is established, let’s dig further into the DND Demogorgon versus the ST Demogorgon.

So, if this grey creature-

-is SO different from the DND Demogorgon in almost every single way, then why does it get called a Demogorgon?

Well, the only reason why the kids call the grey-skinned creature a “Demogorgon” is because El uses the Demogorgon DND piece to represent whatever took Will and then the party sees the grey-skinned creature in the school in the S1 final ep, and assumes that it’s what took Will, and start calling it The Demogorgon as a result.

And Will confirms that the “Demogorgon” got him, but he doesn’t confirm that the grey-skinned creature is what he’s referring to/calling a Demogorgon. And it doesn’t make any sense for Will to call that creature a Demogorgon because he a.) wasn’t there when El used a Demogorgon figurine to represent whatever took Will and b.) the ST Demogorgon looks NOTHING like a DND Demogorgon.

Now, like I’ve talked about in another old post somewhere, Vecna does, physically, resemble the DND Demogorgon, with his tentacles vs Demogorgon’s tentacles, although Vecna is still lacking the two heads.

But if Vecna is what Will saw/what would make him think of a Demogorgon, then how can Richard and Martin each be a head of the Demogorgon?

Well, as James @henrysglock and Stav @heroesbyler and I have talked about, there’s evidence to indicate that one of the Brenners may have attempted to merge himself (much like the scientist in The Fly, which is on the S4 board multiple times), with one of the Henwards in one of the timelines (in pursuit of immortality via Henward’s regenerative healing), resulting in Vecna, and explaining all of the weird and constant Brenner-Vecna parallells, and explaining how both Vecna and the Brenners can represent the Demogorgon.

And also, even setting all of that aside, we need to keep in mind that Will himself seems to be referring to the party’s DND game, not to his vanishing, as the Demogorgon “got him”/killed his DND character due to his low roll.

Now, that is NOT me saying that this line doesn’t refer to Will’s vanishing at all- it totally does, the subtext is absolutely there. But what I AM saying is that Will likely isn’t actually saying that “the Demogorgon is what physically picked me up and took me,” and instead is referring to his character in DND.

So, if Will is just referring to his DND character and being taken by the Demogorgon in-game, then that still tracks completely with Will having been taken just by Richard and Martin without any Vecna involvement (with Richard and Martin being the Demogorgon), as Will isn’t actually directly telling us/the party anything about who actually kidnapped him, and instead, is talking about his DND game, and the subtext is there for the audience regarding Will’s actual kidnapping.

And, it’s not that the Duffers don’t understand DND lore- it’s that this is intentional.

The Demogorgon in ST looks nothing like a DND Demogorgon- it doesn’t even have two heads. It also doesn’t act like the DND Demogorgon- it’s not a spellcasting demon scientist with two separate heads and personalities. It’s not even close.

In fact, The ST Demogorgon is actually way way WAY more similar to a Doppelganger from DND, both in terms of appearance and behaviour.

Here’s a comparison of the ST Demogorgon vs the DND Doppelganger in terms of appearance:

And here’s some information about DND Doppelgangers and how they connect to the ST Demogorgon:

DND Doppelgangers are part of classic DND just like DND Demogorgon- so, while I do actually still think that analyzing more recent additions to DND is 100% valid, Doppelgangers in DND were around during the time period of ST/quite awhile before 1983.

Doppelgangers are shapeshifters, able to shapeshift into whoever they can see at the moment. Which, the ST Demogorgon being more closely inspired by a DND Doppelganger makes sense considering how similar the ST Demogorgon is to “The Thing”/the parallels the ST Demogorgon has to The Thing, and the parallels between “It” and the St Demogorgon/how frequently the ST Demogorgon is referred to as “It,” and also how much general shapeshifter imagery is associated with the ST Demogorgon.

Plus, there’s also the whole Vecnagorgon thing and the fact that we see two different Demogorgons in ST- one of them is a CGI Demogorgon that jumps around rapidly and is thinner, the other is a Demogorgon/the Vecnagorgon who is a.) played by a guy in a costume/suit b.) walks upright slowly on both legs c.) seems to regenerate its foot after getting its foot cut off in the trap at the Byers house and d.) grows strange, brief tumors when shot at the Byers house, something that the other Demogorgon does not do. So, this would all tie into some sort of weird shapeshifter stuff being afoot.

Doppelgangers are quick, vicious and violent, and corner their prey and then use brute force to throw them around- the exact same thing that the ST Demogorgon does.

Doppelgangers can replicate somebody’s clothes and personal items/gear too, which has some VERY interesting implications regarding Will standing in front of the “The Thing” poster in Mike’s basement constantly on the night he vanishes, and what I’ve talked about with two different Wills (Warm Will vs Cool Will) and also with the lab somehow replicating Will’s clothes for his dead body- if they had an exact Doppelganger-esque shapeshifted replica of Will who duplicated his clothes, though, and then they put those clothes onto the fake body… and if that Doppelganger-esuqe shapeshifted replica of Will was either Warm Will or Cool Will…. And if this same Doppelganger creature that replicated Will was was also the Vecnagorgon and was actually just something else replicating the appearance of a ST Demogorgon/the CGI Demogorgon/was replicating the one that isn’t the Vecnagorgon….. and if like I talked about here, the Brenner that we saw in S1 was very, VERY likely Richard Brenner, which leaves Martin Brenner free, and if Martin had some sort of shapeshifting abilities somehow… I’m not sure how it all fits togethers, but there’s SOMETHING HERE!!!

And so, while the ST Demogorgon is not similar to a DND Demogorgon, Richard and Martin are EXTREMELY similar to the DND Demogorgon. Sure, they’re both humans and not a twoheaded monkey demonbeast, but they’re both scientists constantly doing experiments with questionable ethics, just like Demogorgon, and Brenner seems to have this Jekyll and Hyde attitude, where he goes back and forth being openly cruel and uncaring versus being more charming- exactly like the two heads of Demogorgon in DND.

Which, Brenner being the Demogorgon/representing the Demogorgon would point to Richard and Martin being the ones who took Will, at least in one timeline, which tracks with the newspaper about Will’s vanishing from the end of S1 which states that Joyce claimed that Will was a subject at Hawkins Lab:

The former missing child Will Byers has been found after a week of searching. He is presently in stable condition in Hawkins General Hospital. Byers’ mother, Joyce Byers Alleges that Will was the subject of a secret government program run by the Hawkins National Laboratory. The allegation comes amidst a massive investigation into the hidden organization and its elaborate experimentation in perusal of mind control.

The abuse detailed in the first report includes prolonged psychological duress and psychological interrogation. This government sanctioned torture has sparked outrage amongst the American (NOT VISIBLE). In a statement issues yesterday, Ives mentioned her “disgust” (NOT VISIBLE) the organization, saying “our own American people are being treated like the (NOT VISIBLE) we should be directing our attention to the real targets, the Soviets, not our own daughters and sons.” Under legal advice, Brenner has issued no comment on- CUTS OFF

And this would all also align with what I talked about in this post forever ago, with how the hazmat suit figure (likely Brenner) is paralleled to the Demogorgon.

And again, Richard Brenner is described as literally being the head of the Narcotics Enforcement Division at HNL. This wording is not accidental, especially with the context of all of the similarities between Demogorgon and the Brenners- this wording is a reference to the heads of the Demogorgon, and Richard is literally one of the heads of HNL.

“The lab and its involved in government lead drug experimentation was first brought to the attention of the Post after documents naming Dr Richard Brenner, head of the Narcotic Enforcement Division from 1954-1971 came to light. These documents, although thoroughly coded, point to a secret organization involved in-“

It’s even worded to specifically put him as the head of the Narcotics Enforcement Division- meaning he’s not just put as the sole head of HNL as he’s just head of one specific division. Which is relevant because it leaves room for a second head, aka Martin. Martin and Richard are the two heads of HNL- and the two heads of the Demogorgon.

Which, this also puts them as the demon, considering that Demogorgon was a demon/the prince of demons.

Which, when we look at Victor and the Creel murders and the talk of a demon lurking in his home, it fits eerily well if we were to think of Brenner as the demon.

Take a look at this line, for example:

Who do we know that canonically takes children? BRENNER!!! And he’s specifically the guy who took Victor’s child/took Henry!!!! And he probably “took” Alice in the sense of being responsible for her death, especially since we never actually see Alice die, and people just assume that Henward killed her!

And this line:

Who do we know that takes pleasure in tormenting people and children?

Oh right, BRENNER!!! Brenner, the guy staring down with gross pleasure as he tortures a child:

And look at Henward during that SAME SCENE- he’s clearly disturbed and upset by 002’s torment:

Brenner, the guy smirking as he tortures Terry and shocks her:

Even Ray looks more upset/remorseful/as if he's questioning what he's doing, but Brenner just stands there smirking:

Brenner, the guy who watched without remorse as El cried about Brenner forcing her to kill a cat:

Brenner, the guy staring with a smile on his face while El stares back terrified:

Brenner, the guy standing here just WATCHING Henward get tortured, he doesn’t even have to be there, he’s not even there because he has to do the shocking because the other orderlies are doing it, he’s literally just there to watch and take pleasure in it:

Brenner canonically takes pleasure in tormenting people.

I’m working on some other big posts about this (and mentioned it in this post about the chessboard imagery in the Creel house, and in this post about Victor’s arrest) but I definitely think that HNL and Martin/Richard were surveying the Creels prior to the murders and messing with them and pushing them around like pieces on a chessboard.

This is also supported by the movie Cabin In The Woods, which is on the S4 board, and the cabin in question has DIRECT parallels to the Creel house, but is secretly being controlled and run by a government lab for the purpose of manipulating the people inside of it and making them act out/act violently/act out of character (like they were literally drugging them through the vents).

Long story short, to sum it all up, I think that:

1.) Richard and Martin are meant to represent the two heads of the DND Demogorgon.

2.) The Brenners, in one timeline at the very LEAST, were responsible for Will’s vanishing.

3.) The Brenners are the ones being paralleled to the demon in ST/that the demon imagery ties most closely to them and they were very, very likely messing with and surveying the Creel family prior to the murders.

4.) The ST “Demogorgon” is far more similar to a DND Doppelganger than it is to a DND Demogorgon.

5.) I'm not saying that Brenner is the grey-skinned monster creature. I'm saying that Richard and Martin Brenner, thematically and lore-wise, are FAR FAR FAR more similar to the DND Demogorgon than the ST Demogorgon/grey creature is, and that the creature in question is only called a Demogorgon in the show because El used the Demogorgon DND piece to represent whoever/whatever took Will- and then the boys see the grey creature and assume that it's what took Will.

#stranger things #martin brenner #richard brenner #will byers #vanishing of will byers #creel murders

[wibble-wobbegong]

richard henry creel is really such a character. Such a character.

so, quick summary, in one of the newspaper articles there’s a mention of someone names richard brenner

found by @aemiron-main

richard brenner is listed as the head of the Narcotic Enforcement Division from 1954-1971

richard henry creel is the son of virginia fackle creel and henry clay creel. im sure the connection is obvious

anyway, when we look into who this richard henry creel guy was, we learn that he was the assistant surgeon general of the U.S. public health service, and to become this head he’d have to have had specialized training or significant experience in public health. so, this guy was heavily involved in this stuff, though his exact service starts in 1921 but the end is never specified

under the PHS, the, “The Division of Venereal Diseases was established in 1918, and the Narcotics Division in 1929 (it eventually became the National Institute of Mental Health).”

now, richard henry creel was born in 1878 — he would’ve been in his 50’s by the time the narcotics division was actually created

1955 - “The National Microbiological Institute became the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) by order of the Surgeon General on December 29. The Biologics Control Laboratory was detached from the institute and expanded to division status within NIH.”

1957 - “The Center for Aging Research was established November 27 as the focal center for NIH extramural activities in gerontology.”

1958 - “On July 16 the Division of General Medical Sciences was established by order of the Surgeon General, extending research into noncategorical areas covered until that time by the Division of Research Grants. The Center for Aging Research was transferred from the National Heart Institute to the Division of General Medical Sciences on November 4.”

1962 - “Five acres of land for a Gerontology Research Center were donated by the City of Baltimore in December.”

1963 - “The National Institute of Child Health and Human Development and the National Institute of General Medical Sciences were established on January 30. The Center for Research in Child Health and the Center for Research in Aging (established in 1956) were transferred from NIGMS to NICHD.”

1967 - “The National Institute of Mental Health [narcotics division] was separated from NIH and raised to bureau status in PHS by a reorganization that became effective January 1.“

1971 - “The White House Conference on Aging recommended creating a separate National Institute on Aging on December 2.”

source

now that’s a lot of words and moving and bullshit, so here’s the most important stuff to know.

richard henry creel was appointed assistant general surgeon in 1921, and 8 years later the Narcotics Division was formed. the surgeon general he was serving served from 1920 to 1936 — it isn’t much of a reach to say he was probably involved in the creation of this division

now, richard brenner was supposedly the head of the Narcotics Enforcement Division from 1954 to 1971. during that time, the narcotics division was brought up to bureau status, putting it at rank with programs like the FBI and an entire institute dedicated to researching the effects of aging were created, merging aging research with child health research

all of this stuff has roots in the PHS, and the PHS’ biggest start up was chemical research. all of this gets rooted back to chemical research

so, when we look at it, we can see that the same year the institute on aging was created, richard brenner was resigned and richard creel died. this was the year that all the main kids were born, most importantly el and will

i’d also like to point out the center of aging stuff began about two years before henry was taken by brenner. that would be when henry was 10, and i believe that that was the year henry moved to hawkins (trust in @laozuspo) and it was only a year after richard brenner had gotten involved with the narcotics division

what could this all be pointing to? well, both em and james have been feeding me stuff about henry’s regeneration abilities. more importantly, how they resemble cancer. what i didn’t include in the info from 1955 is that the first ever cancer chemotherapy center was established — the same year the Biologics Control Laboratory was given its own division. the BCL explored viral diseases and produced vaccines. the word ‘sick’ in the show has prominent value on a deeper level, as stav has explained, but if we take it more surface level…

ALL i’m saying is that a ton of this stuff lines up. i don’t have a clear answer as to what exactly it means or how we got from A to B for sure, but it seems a lot like this richard character was interested in henry’s cancer-like regeneration abilities. possibly even in an attempt to prevent the process of aging. maybe, just maybe, richard brenner, richard henry creel, and martin brenner aren’t all that different *wink wink*

#at least this is what i’ve found so far #i’m still digging but i need to get this out of my head so i can focus on the other stuff i’m supposed to be working on #like. i shouldn’t be focusing on this or virginia fackle creel’s garden i have 3 different posts im supposed to be making and a fic #but . But this is so #richard brenner #martin brenner #richard henry creel

[henrysglock]

Yeah, I’m digging my heels in on this one.

That’s Not The Same Guy.

The noses, eye socket structure, the set of the cheekbones and shape of the jaw, the way the hair magically fixes itself…it’s entirely different.

Which is especially weird since it’s all 3D modeled for our main suspect already…

Meaning that with their clearly more than capable tech, they 100% should have been able to make that rendering look correct.

#never doubting nick 8flix ever again #brenner is part demogorgon #henry creel #edward creel #martin brenner #richard brenner #stranger things

[castleclerics]

bro WHAT is this nervous look that brenner always gets…. these scenes have the exact same energy the way they cut to him mid-sentence to show his expression like he’s tuned THE FUCK IN to see if what they’re about to say is related to them knowing he’s vecna or about another timeline

#THE BOOM SOUND EFFECT IN THE LAST ONE LIKE LMAOOOOOO #cannot fucking wait for what brenner does in that godamn play dude #brenner #martin brenner #richard brenner

[thatonesongyouretryingtoremember]

star wars plot where Yoda goes in the sensory deprivation tank and learns to talk to ghosts.

The NINA plot in ST4 is literally lifted directly from a Clone Wars episode [el=yoda according to ST1 mike btw]

edit 1: the doctor at the tank says Yoda must come "as close to death as possible" and El got her heart restarted

edit 2: I think at some point Yoda just fuckin dips and sees God on another planet

#nina plot #el hopper #stranger things #about the gay monsterhunting show #henry creel #edward creel #martin brenner #richard brenner

[erikiara80]

I knew that George Smith was Henry/Edward Creel before they announced the cast, but even now I find new hints. Everything means something in this show.

I had noticed this mention of George in S1: water that turns into cement and breaks every bone in your body. It reminded me of Henry's powers. But I didn't know that the name George Burns, the guy Callahan mentions, could be a reference to an american actor who died at 100.

100 -> 001. Now I'm thinking again about my theory that number 10, that they keep mentioning, is reverse 01 (here)

Then Owens quotes George Sarton, who died on March 22nd.

And it would be crazy if Will's birthday is on March 22nd, and they decided to reveal it when he is possessed, because Matthew Modine was born on March 22nd, 1959 (!), and they wanted to give us a hint that Vecna/One/Mind Flayer is actually Richard Brenner... whose mind maybe has merged with Henry's during the exorcism in 1959, or it's at least connected to it since then? So when Joyce is saying It's your birthday to Will, she's also kinda talking about Modine, who plays Brenner.

Yeah, this would be the craziest hint in the whole show lmao.

Oh, and now I also have a theory about the meaning of the lab kid 13 (it's connected to Byler, here) so maybe the other mention of George, in S3, Georgie's 13th birthday, could be a hint about different timelines?

#byler #st the first shadow #the first shadow #henry creel #will byers #dr brenner #richard brenner #st theory #sttanger things

[notmybabies]

Matthew Modine was so fucking good as Papa in the first season, and his hair was so perfect. I was honestly kind of disappointed in him in ST4, but I can’t tell if that is because his wig sucked so bad specifically in the Nina scenes. That wig itself is what makes me want to understand the Edward/Martin/Richard discourse, because how you gonna do him like that if not for a purpose???

#dr Martin Brenner #papa #stranger things #Edward Brenner #Richard Brenner #matthew modine

[aetherictree]

...what if the Upside Down looks like Hawkins because it *is" Hawkins, just a parallel universe, and it was successfully taken over by Vecna the night Will disappeared (possible point of divergence: Will's death opening up a supergate, but certain inconsistencies point to other differences)? And the place El banished Henry to wasn't the Upside Down, but the In-between, the thin piece of paper that separates the two universes?

Just spitballin here, but it would give us an Edward Creel and a Richard Brenner, explaining how Brenner survived (he didn't, that's Richard Brenner in project NINA)...

#stranger things #will byers #parallel universe #edward creel #richard brenner #stranger theories #the upside down #there has to be an explanation for these discrepancies #and they introduced alternate timelines way back in s1