#though it could be canon where angel or buffy got the whammy put on them but then got broken out of it: those endings

[oveliagirlhaditright]

I guess it's not overly common, or maybe it is and it's just in fiction, because there's plenty of them, and good in depth ones...but I also have always kind of liked or at least had interest for Bangelus I always was bummed there was never another meeting w them. It was something of ATS that didn't make sense since she was all he thought about last time he was out and he even almost ended the world. It was waste that rematch never happened....

I definitely agree, anon. I imagine a lot of it has to do with the legal issues at the time, of course. With Buffy and Angel being on different networks and the networks not really wanting the different characters to appear on each other's shows.

And, perhaps, the writers felt like if they had a Buffy vs. Angelus thing again--even if there would of course be some differences this time--it would be too much like Buffy season two, so instead they had Angelus vs. Faith instead (which I do love).

But it definitely is weird that Angelus didn't seem to mention Buffy much in Angel season 4, when she was all he thought about before. I think the most we get is him calling Buffy "a pistol," (which is a great line), and him calling Dawn and asking if Buffy's there (to figure out if the Slayer in town he's hearing about is Buffy or Faith), right?

To be honest, we can't deny that some of this might also be because season four is where a lot of where the Angel/C*ordelia plot line is. And during that, the show kind of stopped mentioning Buffy (to maybe try and give the illusion that Angel had moved on some, to try and get the audience to stop thinking of the Angel/Buffy pairing, or moreover to get people to not question... "Wait, how is Angel pursuing a relationship when he still has the curse when the whole reason he left Buffy is because he can't have a relationship if he still has the curse?"). So that might also be part of it. But I definitely think it's moreso the first points.

And, I know I'm biased here, of course (though I do still enjoy Angel/C*ordelia some, though Angel/Buffy is my OTP now), but I don't think Angelus really had feelings for C*ordelia (Buffy seems to be the only person that both the man and demon in him loved). Or if he did, it wasn't like what he felt for Buffy. Because if he had, wouldn't they have made him crazy like his feelings for Buffy had? Like, wouldn't he have wanted to destroy her for making him love her, too, if that had been a thing? So I don't think something like "Angelus had feelings for C*ordelia and that's why he didn't really think about Buffy in season four" was a thing.

The closest we probably ever get to seeing Buffy and Angelus ever interact again in canon is the comics (I don't know if you've read those, anon).

In season 8, I feel like Twilight (this other persona of Angel's, who, is, like partly good and partly bad; and also being possessed by his and Buffy's kind-of-evil kid [it's a super long and complicated story)] is kind of Angelus-like to me. But also Angel-like some. And yes, he and Buffy do end up fighting.

And then in season 10, Angelus makes a brief appearance (when his great-grandsire brings him out again) and he jealously attacks Spike in knowing that at the moment Buffy has chosen to be with him instead. And this definitely seems to hint, of course, that Angelus has finally accepted his feelings for Buffy by this point (the Twilight stuff kind of did, too--if you choose to see Twilight as partly Angelus at all--since he was choosing to be with Buffy and trying to create a perfect world with her, where they and everyone they loved could be together).

There's also a part in the tie-in book "Monster Island" (that takes place in early Buffy season 6 and Angel season 3), where Buffy and Angel (and Gunn) are kidnapped by the Big Bad of the book's minions. To try and get them out, Tara casts a spell to get all magical creatures to attack each other (thinking the demons would then turn against each other, and they could just easily swoop in and save Buffy and Angel at that point). But she didn't count on Buffy and Angel also being magical creatures, of course (or even herself being a magical creature), so Buffy and Angel are trying to break from their bonds to kill each other. And Angel is starting to be very Angelus-like (like, Angel even thinks that), though he's trying to fight it.

...This reply is all over the place. And I don't know if it makes much sense. Sorry about that! But like you, I do kind of wish that we'd gotten more Bangelus in canon! Like, it's cool that in the comics it seems that Angelus has undergone some sort of journey offscreen and accepted his love for Buffy, but I wish we had seen that onscreen somewhere.

But oh well. I guess that's what fanfiction is for:)

Thanks for the ask!

Edit: There's also more Buffy and Angelus in the book "Night Terrors," a Buffy Choose Your Own Adventure book. But if you get on the path where Angelus shows up, it's sort of an alternate canon to Buffy season two, as he shows up earlier there than he did in season two (before he and Buffy make love, etc.).

Angelus is also in the book "One Thing or Your Mother," and the classic comic "Ring of Fire," but they're more missing moments/episodes from season two, than Angelus showing up in a later season and seeing Buffy again or anything like that. I do highly recommend both, however, since you're a Bangelus fan. Especially "One Thing or Your Mother." Oh! And in the tie-in-novel "Here Be Monsters" (that takes place during Buffy season three), there's a section where Buffy is seeing her worst nightmares. I think it's Angelus she sees (and I think she sees herself killing him again? it's been a while), who tells her that she knows how their story is going to have to end (with her killing him once more), and she'd better make it stick this time.

In the tie-in book, "The Evil That Men Do" (a book that takes place in season three), Buffy and Angel are kidnapped by Helen (a former vampire lover of Angelus') and her lover and forced to try to kill each other in a gladiator-like game. They pretend that they've turned on each other to get out of it and get their enemies to try to kill one another (as Helen's lover was always jealous of her and Angelus, and now he fears they're going to be together again).

In the classic comic "City of Despair" (that takes place in Buffy season 4/Angel season 1) Buffy and Angel are abducted to another dimension (called the City of Despair, actually), and forced to battle each other. They both have these collars on their necks, that are impossible to remove and will kill them if they disobey. They're also, like, almost forced to fight against their will: their bodies moving with a mind of their own, I mean. But eventually Buffy realizes that it's literally people's despair keeping them there. She convinces Angel to try to fight against the feeling with her for just one moment: the two of them embrace, and then escape.

Edit 2: Wait. I guess there's also the Buffy book "Big Bad," that has Buffy and Angelus in it, but I haven't read it yet. So I can't tell you how good or in-character that one is atm. And unlike how the original tie-in books and classic comics were always okayed by at least one of the original writers, I'm not sure if these new novels have been. I'm thinking not?

Edit 3: And though a part of me is loath to mention Boom, since they're not canon and I have... not very positive emotions about these comics in a lot of ways. In the first Buffy/Angel comic they were doing, Angel ended up possessed by something called the Hellmother, I believe it was called, while he and Buffy were on a mission in the Hellmouth together. And then Buffy ended up having to fight him.

#long post #bangelus #bangel #asked and answered #this also gets into headcanon territory of course: but i'd like to believe s4!angelus would have eventually come to sunnydale. but he was #being more careful. and doing things a bit differently this time. after last time #but it's def possible. imo. since we don't see into angelus' head in s4 that much as compared to s2 #but you know... as much as i would have loved to see buffy vs angelus again in angel s4 and buffy s7. it might be best it didn't happen #in the shows and is just a fanfic (a very good) fanfic thing. buffy went through much that season. and the seasons prior. she didn't need #that too. another user said this (can't think of their name right now). but hearing angelus was back while she was dealing with the first #and trying to protect all the potentials probably WOULD have put her on suicide watch. my poor girl #also in another choose your own adventure book. colony. you can get bad endings where buffy and angel pretty much kill each other #since in that book either angel buffy or giles got the whammy put on them by the big bad #also bad endings in night terrors where angelus kills buffy #but those kinds of things are par for the course with choose your own adventure books #colony takes place in s2 too #but of course none of that would be canon. those bad endings #though it could be canon where angel or buffy got the whammy put on them but then got broken out of it: those endings #excuse me while i just add in all of the buffy/angel fight scenes i can think of. i guess. that people might not know about here #that are maybe angelus-esque (some of these definitely stretching that. i know). since it might somewhat kind of-ish be a bit of what #you're looking for anon #also. side note. all of these buffy books and comics are actually really good. even the first buffy/angel boom story i prefer much more to #some of their later stuff probably #and angelus himself has been in some of the boom comics now. though not at the same time as buffy sadly #and i don't know how in-character or not he's been. because i sort of stopped reading boom. but what little i did see with him looked like #it might have been taking him in a strange direction. but i may be wrong #there's also the angel book 'impressions' where these stones are making all of the demons act wild/angry which. if you haven't guessed. #makes angel act more like angelus and sort of pulls angelus out more and more as the book progresses (until things are resolved) and in #that book angel thinks of buffy twice there #that book takes place during angel season 3/buffy season 6

[ettadunham]

A Buffy rewatch 2x21 Becoming Part 1

aka the dead the undead and the dumbass

Welcome to this dailyish text post series where I will rewatch an episode of Buffy and point out / hyperfocus on one detail in it in 10-3k words. Or maybe go through each and every random scene I choose. Rules are fake.

And today is why we suffered through episodes like Go Fish. Finally. The end of the beginning. The beginning of an end.

...And yet as you probably guessed it from my choice of screencap, I’m actually going to start on more of a downer note.

Kendra died.

Character deaths is a conversation that I’ll probably keep coming back to with this show, because it does feel like it’s one of the legacies Buffy’s left for the next generation of television. Lots of shocking, emotional character deaths.

And I will go here on record and say that I do find most of these deaths effective still. When these big moments come, I’m still not ready, and I still get swept up in the atmosphere, the emotion of it all. I can see the poignancy that they represent in the story.

But... there’s a reason we’ve got so critical of television deaths and who they affect, and with Buffy... well, there’s definitely a conversation.

Buffy the show has a race problem. This is a conversation that I can’t really add to, but one, that also can’t be denied. And Kendra’s death very much plays into that pattern.

Her story was one that the writers weren’t interested in exploring any further. So much so that when they brought her back for an episode, it was only for her to die dramatically. All to signal a low point for Buffy.

That’s not a great message when you look at what Kendra represents.

So whether one finds the moment effective - Buffy finding Kendra death, Giles kidnapped, the fate of the rest of the gang uncertain, the world at the brink of being sucked into hell... That moment of despair that we all feel with her, just like how we’ll feel the moment of triumph as she overcomes it... We still need to look at the context.

Because while we’re supposed to identify with Buffy, with the main heroes of the story, and find the strength and inspiration we need from them... It’s important to remember that some people will identify with the victims. The ones being discarded to give us the stories that get us through the day.

So yeah. Context and perspective.

And speaking of perspective, this is the episode that gives us a somewhat new one on Angel. Who I’ve been consciously avoiding calling Angelus, because I think it’s more interesting to look at the souled vs. soulless vampire as the duality of a character rather than separate entities altogether.

A decision that I felt especially vindicated by, when we got our first flashback of Angel pre-vamped. Because that version of the character actually reminded me more of his soulless self than the more heroic, brooding version we got to know.

See, I used to think that the answer to why Angel felt so separate from his soulless self, especially when compared to other vampires who will thread similar paths, was in his character... But that’s not actually it.

The reason why Angel feels such a different person from his Angelus persona is because he (un)lived and grew and learned for over 100 years with a soul, while Angelus remained the same. It’s literally that simple.

Pre-vampire Angel (or Liam, as we’ll later learn) was reckless, impulsive, constantly chasing something new that would give him pleasure, while ultimately living an empty life. When he became a vampire, that was the template the demon inherited. Someone who would obsessively torture a poor young woman who felt weighed down by her powers, but just as easily could decide to end the world on a whim, all so he could prove himself worthy.

But Angel with a soul was able to grow from that. He had to face who he was, what he was capable of, and make a choice what to become. That’s what separates him from his former self - both from his soulless and human past.

In that sense, Angel’s entire character represents growth. A lesson in how even the worst of humanity can learn to do better.

And then there’s Xander. And no, I’m not gonna segue, let’s just get it over with.

I’ve been mentioning in the past how Xander has a problem of not thinking clearly when he’s emotional. And boy, does he lose all his chill here.

There are rational reasons as to why Buffy should be focusing on killing Angel more... And as I’ve been considering this, I realized that this actually gives me a perspective on something that happens in the next episode. So let’s hit pause on that.

Ah yes, Xander.

I’ve started this season saying ‘what the actual fuck, Xander’, and it appears, that we’ll end the season that way as well. A full circle, if you may.

Xander going way over the fucking line, yelling at Giles about how Angel killed Jenny and so they should kill him, soul or no soul, pretty much tells you all you need to know. And if you look at it from the angle of Angel representing the possibility of terrible shitty human beings learning to do better, it sort of paints Xander as the black-and-white guy.

But Xander does have a right to have that perspective. I keep trying to bring up what happened in 1x02 with Jesse, and I feel like finally, this is my real moment. Xander’s friend got turned into a vampire and he had to kill him. Therefore the idea that vampires could be changed from those terrible monsters his friend became is understandably not something that he’d be comfortable accepting.

Too bad that in canon Xander’s resentment towards Angel is so soaked in jealousy, and Jesse never actually gets brought up by the show. Oh, well.

But maybe there is still a merit to what Xander brings to this conversation. We as a society should definitely put more focus on change and growth, but you know what, sometimes you do need someone to stand there and remind everyone that that guy actually murdered someone.

Soul or no soul.

Speaking if which, Willow is way too excited to delve in the “black arts” with the whole soul restoration whammy. Even though Giles warns her that by doing the spell, she might open a door that she won’t be able to close.

I’m sure absolutely nothing will come out of that.

Part 2, here I come!!!

#buffy rewatch 2k19 #btvs talk #btvs