#The Beatles and the Historians

[lonely-soul-02]

Any Beatles fans out there, I urge you to listen to Erin and check out her fabulous work, if you're not already aware of her. She's analytical and level-headed, yet deeply empathetic. She's a much needed breath of fresh air in a male heavy fandom, many of whom have a bizarre love/hate fanship over Paul McCartney, emphasis on the hate. Indeed, some of them have written books about him.

#I'm looking at you Philip Norman you complete weirdo #Hunter Davies you're not much better after I saw your talk last year #The Beatles #Paul McCartney #Erin Torkelson Weber #one sweet dream podcast #The Beatles and the Historians #some interesting parallels with Liam and the way some Liam stans position Liam

[got-ticket-to-ride]

Arriving at the scene for their interview "RoundUp" April 30, 1964 // John looking glum when Paul asked Morag Hood out to come to their show.

#or how historians would say - John wasn't well - he was nervous - he was remembering yesterday's dinner .... ok #The Beatles #Mclennon #John Lennon #Paul Mccartney #Jealous John Lennon #gttr-beatles #RoundUp #gif #1964 #HOLD MY JOHNNY BABY

[franklyimissparis]

tbh it makes no sense to me when people ride so hard for paul but hate john or vice versa because if there’s one thing they both made abundantly clear throughout their lives it’s that they loved and respected each other more than basically anyone else

#this applies to casual fans but also to music journalists/beatles historians btw #obviously there were…. very rough patches between them to say the least but the love/admiration never really stopped #and i doubt either of them appreciate ppl shitting on the other #john lennon #paul mccartney #the beatles #john and paul #mclennon

[menlove]

not to be like. Annoying about it. but what really gets me abt beatles fans of like. really Any demographic who complain that it's disrespectful to assume john & paul were anything but straight boy besties bc "men can show affection for their friends" or whatever is just like.... once again it always comes back to: if this were a man and a woman, would anyone be out here crying about their friendship or would it just be an uncontested fact about rock history? like. when you look at everything they've ever said about each other, what their friends and partners have said, the songs they've written about each other, etc it's like. pretty blatant. the only reason it's Not a "fact" is because it's two men. like whether you want to think they had a physical relationship or not (which is smth we can never know bc that's no one's business) it's just so weird to insist it's disrespectful to point this stuff out. like. again. do you guys say any of this stuff when people talk about straight relationships in history? or is this hesitance and distaste Solely reserved for gay people?

(none of this means anything to my followers who don't care abt the beatles scroll on ur fine I'm talking abt ppl deep into this but w a side of homophobia they can't shake)

#and I mean I guess this goes for really any time the topic of queer people who weren't out comes up #like obviously I'm not talking about in history fields saying woah hold on we can't call this person trans/a lesbian/whatever bc #those identities didn't exist yet and we don't know and it's just historically irresponsible etc #but when people just flat out Refuse to even entertain major historical figures as any sort of queer #as if it's any more disrespectful or weird than the other million assumptions historians make every day #which AS a historian I just find the whole thing frustrating on every end! #but this isn't about that it's about beatles rpf w a side tangent lmaooo

[pauls1967moustache]

does this mean in the 2000s yoko says “john considered marrying paul but was swayed by her mostly immovable homosexuality” cause that’s even more of a doozy

dksjahfak you know. this got me thinking about how funny/awful the post break up lennon/mccartney narrative would be in this universe. like obviously mostly horrible because men would immediately twist anything mean john said about paul to discredit her for everything she ever wrote. but i'm mainly thinking about how funny it would be to watch all the male beatle historians who jerk off to john's masculinity try to make sense of the fact that he (publicly) never managed to bag this a woman who got more pussy than him, (and who he would be much more openly rumoured to be in love with because no one's afraid of the gay of it all if paul's a woman). like they'd all be like "well obviously not even a lesbian could resist lennon's charms". it would be like the complete flipside of what they do now. instead of being like "nothing happened between paul and john because john is sooooooo straight", they're all like "there's absolutely no way something didn't happen between paul and john because john's so hot and sexy that he transcends lesbianism." still homphobic but in the complete other direction.

this kind of yoko quote would send them in a tizzy, much like in real life (if they ever acknowledged it).

#asks #not what you asked but yeah. lol. #thinking of beatles historians trying to write about a lesbian woman paul and feeling ill. they'd treat her so bad 😭😭😭 #girl paul

[monkberryfields]

All I'm saying is...why couldn't I write a queer history of the Beatles?

#like as a budding historian i had ideas on how to approach this #i also just bought the women's history of the beatles and so I'm highly interested in seeing the authors work #but like....i have ideas how to write it....so why can't i??? #mads rambles

[hoom]

i always forget paul mccartney has like actual fans. this is our society

#im so cured from the beatles fandom i love living in the real world where i’m waiting for the emmys and not playing historian

[scourgiez]

did you see ringos insta post abt rory. dude didn't even live to see cellphones and he's being bullied on social media

LOLLL I SAW

however the more i look at it the more i see that isn’t rory! (and using a few helpful comments) the person in the photo turns out to actually be faron ruffley of faron’s famingos! i still love how ringo called upon his fans to find the identity of the mystery man 💀 and by god we did

#within SECONDS he was recognized i expect no less from ringo-historians #ringstorians #the beatles #ask #gitsor

[beatles60]

48 minutes of insightful audio!

#the beatles #parlophone records #cynthia lennon #cynthia powell #John Lennon #mona best #pete best #neil aspinall #ringo starr #george martin #brian epstein #1962 #beatles60 #eric king mixer howell #steve bradley #beatles historian #mark ashworth #liverpool #gerry and the pacemakers #mark lewisohn #lorne grant #60 years ago today

[thefabelmans2022]

listen i voted for 'they never fucked but if they had it would've fixed everything' in the mclennon poll but truly genuinely i believe it would have made everything worse and ruined their relationship beyond repair.

#john had so much internalized homophobia that he was only just starting to work through towards the end of his life #and if paul isn't straight then he is/was hugely repressed about it #add on the pressure of being not only best friends but life and BUSINESS partners AND fame on a previously unimaginable level #and any actual consummation of whatever the fuck was going on with them would've been terrifying confusing and so so awkward #it would've made everything so much worse #the beatles #there's my unpopular opinion. also just using my historian mind we have no real evidence that anything happened with them at all.

[cryptotheism]

It is 1485, you are a master stonemason in the city of Venice. Europe is at war. What else is new. Down the street, some weirdo named Leonardo is drawing blueprints for flying machines. You were essentially trained from birth in the art of stonecutting. The knowledge in your head keeps the crops watered, fortresses upright, and the streets clean of filth. As such, your knowledge is very, very valuable. You need to exchange knowledge with other masons but you can’t just publish all your secrets in a book, no sir. If every two-bit stonecutter learned your techniques it would put your job security in jeopardy. What you need is a nice, secluded place where you can talk shop with your peers. Maybe you could form a sort of society, one that regularly meets in secret. Somewhere all the masons like you would be free from prying eyes.  The Freemasons are a magical society in the same way that Yoko Ono was a Beatle. They should not, by definition, be here, but their influence is widespread, and to omit them would be a bat to the kneecaps of any good history of magic. The freemasons are a square peg in the round hole of magical history. Many occult historians have tried to roughly hammer them into place, only to find themselves lost in the swamps of mythical pseudohistory. 

Freemasonry! Today on patreon.

#patreon #occult #Freemasonry

[got-ticket-to-ride]

hi sorry but do you have any soft mclennon moments to share too :') the post you made about 22 seconds of longing hurt oh my god

Sorry for the delay in reply anon. I'm actually just a corporate collar acting my way as a temporary secretary every hard day's night, jobbing like a dog, 8 days a week in an English garden to afford a tan in the rain.

Hope this finds you well! Here are 22 McLennon moments as compensation for Johnny's 22 agonizing seconds in the pining video.

1.) "I'm Happy Just to Dance with You" scene when they both looked at each other at the same time. And the director had to pan out the scene because it would've been too straight. I know dilated pupils when I see it.

2.) Inviting your favorite boy to a solo trip to Spain but you stayed in Paris because it was so romantic, sharing a bed, picking out clothes for each other, slurping all the banana shakes, you know normal roommate things according to historians.

3.) Getting a solo invitation from a hot photographer and bringing along your best boy because you are attached to the hip and can't be separated.

4.) Their need to constantly touch each other

5.) Scene in Help (1965), where John is using all his strength to carry George and Ringo's weight and not crush Paul (because boyfriend things)

6.) Holding hands for mental support during a recording. (John is needy, please forgive him)

7.) Walking Martha like a couple in 1967 - outfits coordinated and all

8.) Impressions by people who met them:

"[John and Paul] sort of had their own way of communicating. Hardly anything was spoken, they just knew what the other wanted or was getting at and they had the most amazing talent."

"He was like a different animal with Lennon. When they were together they became something else, more than just the two of them together. That communication was incredible. It was like two high-speed computers just fizzing between each other."

9.) John is hiding his cigarette behind him, because he doesn't want to bother Paul with the smoke. (You know, boyfriend things).

10.) A portrait, king and princess up front. John's thigh just casually resting on Paul's (yet again).

11.) The spider fingers during a press conference, because they are actually both 12

12.) That very flirty jam session in Austria in 1965 that was cut short, but they probably continued after anyway

13.) The way they talk about the day they met sounds like "how I met the love of my life" Happy Honeymoon <3

14.) Quote from Emerick

The lights in the studio were turned off to set the mood; the sole source of illumination was a table lamp next to the wall. The two beatles, lifelong friends and collaborators, sat on high stools, facing each other, studying each other’s lips intently for phrasing.

15.) When they answer each other's songs

Paul in Can't Buy Me Love: "If it makes you feel alright?"

John: "I Feel Fine"

17.) “I could even hear what they were saying off-mike; ‘Oh Paul, you’re so cute tonight’ was met with the reply, ‘Sod off, Lennon.’” — Joan Baez on accompanying the Beatles to their concert in Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Denver. 26 August 1964

18.) Paul looking at John like he wants to eat him later after finishing with "I'm a Loser"

19.) Giving instructions on how John's hair needs to "look"

20.) Paul acting as John's walking stick

21.) Paul's heart eyes during this 1966 conference (also that lip bite... eat you later?):

22.) John the worried boyfriend who checks on Paul in the middle of an interview and doesn't believe him when he just says : "oh, yeah..."

John internally: "come on now, why aren't you laughing at my joke babe? You're unwell!!!"

The Bottles over and out.

Thank you for this ask. This was quite fun! Would love to hear your thoughts too <3

#Asks #Mclennon #John and Paul #John Lennon #Paul Mccartney #funny #The Beatles #gttr-beatles

[franklyimissparis]

happy international women’s day to every woman who had to put up with the beatles on a daily basis alsjdkshdk. also to the original teenage fangirls of the 60s who brought the band to prominence yet were cut out of the music journalism/beatles historian sphere. and to the modern day women (especially queer women) fans of the beatles who continue to work at dismantling the narratives that cishet white male authors have been writing about since the 70s. you all are the best <33

#the relationship between women and beatledom is so fascinating and i love talking abt it so much #sorry this is slightly belated but i got distracted 👍 shoutout adhd #the beatles #beatles fandom #paul mccartney #john lennon #george harrison #ringo starr

[anotherkindofmindpod]

Fine Tuning further listening

Mark Lewisohn Podcast and Interview Recs

Audio for most of these interviews can be found on Mark Lewisohn, a Beatles Historian, a beautifully maintained fan-made YouTube channel that has archived almost all of the interviews on this list. 

Interviews are linked directly to Apple podcasts, when possible. (YouTube links also included when applicable.)

Interview with Jean Louis-Polard, 2014 Topics of note: Neutrality and lack of bias

Fabcast podcast, 2017 013 MARK LEWISOHN (YouTube) Topics of note: The 80s and Paul McCartney’s solo career

Humans in Love podcast, 2018 #1 (Part One) Beatles Authority Mark Lewisohn Topics: Paul’s reaction to John’s murder

Fab4Cast podcast, 2019  Talking to Mark Lewisohn: #1 Writing The Beatles' History and #2 Spring 1969 (YouTube links: #1, #2) Topics: Heroin; Allen Klein; the Liberty Bell; John and Yoko’s wedding; Paul and Linda’s wedding

Nothing Is Real podcast, 2019 The Mark Lewisohn Interview #14 Part One and #15 Part Two  Topics of note: Tensions with Apple

Interview with Giljs Groenteman, 2019 Topics: Unbridled enthusiasm for John

I Am the EggPod podcast, 2019 The Star-Club tapes (YouTube) Topics: John’s leadership; intention to make all his research accessible after the books are published

From Me To You podcast, 2020 Mark Lewisohn In Conversation w/ Richard Courtney (YouTube link) Topics: Philip Norman; today’s “anti-John stuff” 

Let It Roll podcast, 2020 Mark Lewisohn in Conversation w/Nate Wilcox (YouTube) Topics: The “no greater buddy” incident; Lewisohn defending Paul

Let It Be Beatles podcast, 2020 Mark Lewisohn - The Complete 2020 Let It Be Beatles Interview Podcast (YouTube) Topics: The benzedrine incident; John’s threesome with Royston Ellis; the 444 meeting and Geoff Emerick.

Fans on the Run podcast, 2022 Ep 73. Mark Lewisohn  Topics: Working for Paul; tensions with Apple

#fine tuning #mark lewisohn #akom #another kind of mind #podcasts

[loveinstreams]

the thing about mclennon is it's got published analysis by beatles expert saying they were basically married in every way but romantic. like yeah they weren't gay or having a secret relationship but they were in love and wanted each other badly but only in music lol haha. also we will compare the band's history to a romantic relationship between them and make every song they wrote together about them. I am a rock and roll historian btw

#it goes crazy!!!! #like its so funny to me that people get mad about it online when like. old men are seriously publishing that and getting praised for it #sorry for beatles posting #mclennon

[mythserene]

AKOM “Fine Tuning,” Episode 6: A prolonged jealousy

Another really excellent episode that I will have to listen to at least two more times to fully ingest, despite having lots of diffuse, unconnected notes where I ranted about most of the same text. They really backed up and gave it context and meaning, including adding a lot of things that I didn’t have and making sense of some of the extras that I did. It was both satisfying and frustrating: more satisfying than I expected, and my frustration feels more coherent and focused now.

I definitely think it’s one of the most important episodes.

There is only one point I would add, and that is just that when you listen to the episode it’s important to realize that Paul’s “jealousy” is the most egregiously non-sourced. There are basically two quotes that Mark Lewisohn uses to support this entire theme. The theme which he so beats into the ground that even if you don’t look at the footnotes it feels excessive.

I’ve mentioned before that when I read “Tune In” I was still very, very new to Beatles’ history. A newborn without any of the historiographical context, no understanding of the long, strange, John-deifying background, and therefore I wasn’t on the lookout for it. And that’s important because I went into the book with implicit trust, loved the writing, and still it was evident to me, fairly quickly, that I was reading an opinion column.

It was the cigarettes that did it

Paul’s care with money was noted—Pete says that while they all passed their ciggies around, Paul would “sneak one of his own to himself”—and he was still needling everyone about the Bambi sleeping arrangements, made all the worse now because he was jealous of Pete getting the best girls.

The second time I read the book I remember thinking, “Surely not that many people spontaneously bitched about Paul being stingy with cigarettes.” And that was my tipoff.

There are two quotes in the book about Paul and cigarettes that appear to be organic—one being Pete’s “sneak one of his own” quote in this episode—but you’d think that half the people Lewisohn talked to about their memories of some of the most famous people ever, and certainly the most famous from Liverpool, just magically thought that one of the most important things about these four guys was that Paul was stingy with cigarettes. And there is just no way that that is true.

But I also know how this works, inside out. You get “an angle” as a reporter. You have a story you want to tell, and then you interview people with that story—that angle—in mind. You ask questions that you think will elicit the responses that back up your thesis. And then, on the other side of the process, you filter the quotes you choose (and don’t choose) that tell the story you want to tell. And to be fair, every reporter and historian does this to some extent. It may just be to organize ideas in a coherent way, or it may be to focus on a theme. But it has also notoriously been used by historians to warp the truth and further a broader historical lie. (A very good example of this and the one closest to me is “the Dunning School” of the US Civil War and Reconstruction, the first real and condensed story of that conflict that injected into US historiography many complete lies, including the especially insane one that after the Civil War the “Radical Republicans” inflicted pain and humiliation on the South, which despite being the exact opposite of the truth is still the story most Americans “know.”)

Mark Lewisohn had a story he wanted to tell, and I believe that story is most obvious in his “jealous Paul” theme because it’s based on nearly thin air and even then is so ludicrously overblown. But I think it was just too tempting a canvas for Lewisohn. Setting up a dead, pretty kid as a sort of saint that Paul persecuted does so much work for everything else he wants to say about Paul, especially in the upcoming books. Hamburg becomes a pressure cooker where Paul’s true colors come out, and if Lewisohn can use Stu—a sort of perfect near-blank slate who never had time to put any of his memories into context—as a foil to Paul and to paint Paul as petty and jealous and seething, then all the rest of his work is easy. Stu is a layup that paves the way to seeing Paul as a bad guy. The concrete dries and everything else falls into place.

And look, there just is no way to see this theme as organic, because it’s not. It just isn’t. It’s not based on quotes or stories. There are a few completely disconnected quotes stretched to breaking that he uses to try to prop all this nonsense up with, but there is simply no defense for even 90% of the primary usage of them, and certainly not of the whole, big-picture story he creates with them.

I’m going to give one example—and there are many—but I admit to liking this one best because it’s all there in one passage based on one quote that doesn’t say any of this.

Passage:

But, as much as Paul liked exhibiting versatility, he was unhappy—he felt he’d been lumbered, that his multi-instrumental ability was tying him down. Who looked at the drummer? By rights, his place was out front, especially with his new guitar. Here he was, paying off the Solid 7 at ten bob a week and hardly getting to play it. Jealousy of Stu was stoked: Paul was in the back line while he remained out front (even if he was hiding and in dark glasses). One thing was for certain: Paul wasn’t going to abandon singing.

The only citation for all that Maca-inhabited resentment is the brief Paul quote already in the text, (FN35) and the next footnote—FN36—is from George on a new topid. There is no citation whatsoever to support any of Lewisohn’s finely-sketched fantasies of Paul’s vanity and jealousy.

FOOTNOTE 35: “I was drumming with my hands, playing the hi-hat and bass drum with my feet and I had a broomstick stuck between my thighs on the end of which was a little microphone, and I’m singing ‘Tell me what’d I say …’ It wasn’t easy!”

*Note: This quote is also in the text right under the ‘lumbered Paul wanted to be out front’ passage, so in some ways it’s an even thinner spread, if that’s possible.

So, according to Lewisohn:

Paul liked “exhibiting versatility” (a whole lot because of the modifier “as much as”)

Paul was unhappy because he felt “lumbered”

He felt he was being punished because he was TOO TALENTED

BY RIGHTS his place was out FRONT

He wanted to be LOOKED AT!

Jealousy of Stu is grabbed from thin air, based on nothing, and “stoked” by Lewisohn.

because, again, Stu was out FRONT

Did you catch the point that Paul is CHEAP?

Again, all of that is cited to this:

“I was drumming with my hands, playing the hi-hat and bass drum with my feet and I had a broomstick stuck between my thighs on the end of which was a little microphone, and I’m singing ‘Tell me what’d I say …’ It wasn’t easy!”

There are at least two more things that I want to say but this is long enough so I will put them off. (Hopefully not for long.) ✌🏻

#the beatles #akom #beatles #fine tuning #tune in #paul mccartney #john lennon #lewisohn #jealous paul #cherry picking #mark lewisohn #Spotify