#bi lesbian discourse

[hiriamcdaniels]

Don't make me tap the sign

#ace discourse #pan discourse #bi discourse #queer discourse #lgbt discourse #aro discourse #queer solidarity #bi lesbian discourse #transmed #truscum

[kuchipatch1]

"We need more weird queers" Yall can't even handle bi lesbians

#bi lesbian #mspec mono #queer #discourse #<- for filtering #lgbt #pro bi lesbian #bi lesbian discourse

[omgsomeonesomewhereonearth]

Twitter's choice to focus on maia arson crimew's sexuality instead of what it just achieved is deeply infuriating and disheartening to say the least, but this has to be the funniest tweet I've seen on the matter:

""You can support the incredibly impressive trans anarchist who JUST HACKED THE NO FLY LIST...but you'll have to give up ME!"

"Oh...who am I? A kpop account with 600 followers on twitter."

Lol, okay then.

#maia arson crimew #bi lesbian discourse #queer discourse #so sick of this bullshit

[transmascpetewentz]

This is a really bad take from our favorite extremely-weird-about-trans-men gay. I'm not going to call him cis because he's nb but he is extremely fucking weird about trans men and seems to not have really unpacked a lot of what society and the gay community feeds cis gay men in terms of opinions. Also yes, this post is old, but people are still reblogging it, including some people that I follow, so I'm going to respond to it anyway.

I agree with the first point, that accurate and concise language should be around. That is why we have the word lesbian (however we notably don't have a gay man version of lesbian, because gay has become an umbrella term for better or for worse). But words can mean more than one thing, and sometimes two hyper-specific words can be not contradictory for someone!

Use of "straight women who fetishize gay men" would normally not make me raise an eyebrow since they exist, but this guy's weirdness about trans men makes me wonder who he really means by this statement.

"Bi lesbian" isn't ahistorical at all, it's been used since the 70s. Ppl will really just call everything they don't like ahistorical, won't they?

It's not inviting men to prey on lesbians when a bi lesbian exists. Bc straight men who fetishize lesbians will probably also fetishize bi women! Fetishization by straight men isn't bad because lesbians don't like men, it's bad because it's fetishization. Why are we back to blaming bi women for men's actions?

#wentz.txt #long post #bi lesbian discourse

[baradyke]

like yes bisexual women in the past have been referred to or self-identified as lesbians. hell i don't even give a shit if a bisexual woman in a wlw relationship says that she's currently in a lesbian relationship. I DON'T CARE. but what DOES matter is that terminology is changing all the time and we have come up with new words for things that we didn't before and they have become universal. this is a good thing!

labels are created to use as a means to describe your identity in a way that wasn't already encompassed by previously existing ones. the lesbian identity was never about excluding bisexuals from our spaces and we have happily coexisted and thrived alongside bisexual women, given there is overlap in our identities. the word sapphic exists for a reason.

but to force multiple identities to identify as the same when their experiences are not, is gross and incredibly counterproductive. you're forcing lesbians, the ONLY sexuality that does not include attraction to men, to include those who do. living in the world that we do, are forced to live by the rules of patriarchy, alienated as a whole simply by virtue of not being attracted to men - some not wanting to associate with them at all - and wanting our own space for it. this is not being exclusionary, because we are still acknowledging that even if our experiences are different, we are no less or more queer for it. every group within the lgbt community deserves to keep the labels that describe their experiences separate (and no, don't use this as an excuse to separate things like bi and pan, or trans and nb, when they encompass the same experiences)

SO BASICALLY,

correct: bi women, especially those with a preference for women, and lesbians have a lot of overlapping experiences and either can identify as sapphic, but it is important to distinguish these labels given their individual experiences and history

incorrect: bi women can simultaneously identify as lesbians if they personally decide that they "feel" lesbian enough despite still being attracted to men. it's fine, my lesbian friend said it was ok!

#bi lesbian discourse #mspec lesbian discourse #anti mspec lesbian #anti mspec gay #not proofreading that #txt #q slur

[redtail-lol]

If you can say a lesbian is a non-man who exclusively likes non-men and say bi lesbians aren't valid in the same paragraph please reconsider your enbyphobia and biphobia. Why do you assume bi inherently includes attraction to men? Why do you believe "non-men" is in any way monosexual? Why don't you accept wlw and wlnb as bisexual?

Being anti bi lesbian is biphobia and/or enbyphobia. You can't be a good person and not think mspec lesbians are valid. Going by the most common definition of lesbian used by antis, bi lesbians are valid.

#bi lesbian #mspec lesbian #bi lesbian safe #mspec lesbian safe #pro mspec lesbian #pro bi lesbian #bi lesbian discourse #i said what i said

[notthebeststufftbh]

The bi lesbian discourse is so stupid. Haven't we done this a hundred times? It was xenopronouns and trans people and aro/ace people and bisexuality before that. What have we learned about limiting and gatekeeping queerness from YOUR OWN PEOPLE? Nothing at all?

#you can do whatever you want forever #let people live for gods sake #sincerely a bisexual #lgbtq+ #lgbtq discourse #bi lesbian #bi lesbian discourse #bisexuality

[sapphicpoetspost]

you don't need to be included in a label in order to love the people that do identify with that label. I'm not bi, but I love & deeply respect bi people. and I don't mean this in a "why can't we all just get along :(" way, but lesbians really need the love & support of nonlesbians right now in addressing the biphobic, transphobic, misogynistic and lesbophobic "bi-lesbian" discourse.

to preface this, people with marginalized genders and/or marginalized sexualities don't have universal experiences. even if they use the same label, no two people experience their identity in exactly the same way. it's harmful in general to ascribe sameness to an entire group of people. I am not ascribing fault to any particular individual for how oppressive systems manifest. I am simply asking for the harm to stop of "m-spec lesbians" and "bi-lesbians" calling lesbians "manhaters" "bigots" and "political lesbians" (which is a deeply lesbophobic term that communicates that these lesbians which explicitly identify with not being attracted to men, have an attraction to men that they simply choose not to act on).

if you think a label is "rigid' you are claiming you have a better understanding of the conditions that fit into that label than the people who identify with that label. labels are not "rigid." they provide language to describe specific shared experiences which can provide comfort to those who use them. labels are equally created by what they include and what they exclude, so that people with shared and similar experiences can find community with each other. for instance:

"lesbian: a sapphic not attracted to men" describes this set of qualifiers: experiencing attraction in a sapphic way, and not experiencing attraction to men.

a square has 4 equal sides and 4 equal corners. a rectangle has 4 sides and 4 equal corners. now, we don't consider rectangles squares unless the rectangle has 4 equal sides. otherwise, the definition square would be meaningless. just like how not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles, not all sapphics are lesbians but all lesbians are sapphics. this doesn't mean one group is better or worse than the other, they are just different.

#lesbophobia #lesbian #terfs dni #bi lesbian discourse #discourse

[chaos-in-one]

" Isn't it telling how the only people defending mspec lesbians are mspec lesbians?"

A. Wrong, there are mono lesbians who support mspec lesbians (case in point, I'm a mono lesbian myself, I'm literally homoromantic, exclusively same gender attracted. It can't be reasonably argued that I'm mspec.) you just assume anyone who supports them must be one because it makes it easier to dismiss our opinions and say all mspec lesbian supporters "aren't real lesbians"

B. The main people defending a minority being the minority themself is not "telling", most if not all minorities have gone through this stage at some point in fighting for acceptance.

#mspec lesbian discourse #pro mspec lesbian #lgbtq discourse #mogai discourse #lesbian discourse #bi lesbian discourse #anti exclusionist

[ribstongrowback]

i don't have to justify being a bi lesbian, but you if i had, here's what id say

im a bi lesbian because it pisses you off

i'm a bi lesbian because it pisses a lot of people off really quick, and so i immediately know to avoid them

their giving a shit about labels in that way is usually the tip of the ice berg

#bi lesbian discourse #bi lesbian

[anarcho-sin-dicalist]

If you stand against bi lesbians, if you stand against ace people, if you stubbornly refuse to accept either bi or pan people, if you stand against transexuals, transvestites, crossdressers, faggots, queers, or dykes, I do not want to know you. I already know you are not worth knowing. I already know you will abandon me in my time of need. I already know that you will not support trans people when those in power come for us. You will do everything in your power to find any tiny non-conformity on which you can hang your abandonment. You are already preparing yourself for it. You are not my ally, you are not my friend, you are not my community. Get away from me now rather than later, when I might foolishly rely on your support and find that you have fled from me.

#bi lesbian discourse #ace discourse #discourse #bi/pan discourse #holy fucking bingle shut the fuck up vicci

[xxcalicofemmexx]

i think the thing is, is a lot of exclusionists are coming at this from the wrong direction. so much of the language used to argue against mspec lesbians is binarist to the extreme, which is extremely frustrating when what we’re talking about is a non-binary identity.

lesbianism has always included nonbinary people, and bisexuals, and gender nonconformists, and trans people, and aspecs, and men, and genderqueers, and mspec people of all kinds! we didn’t always have the language, but if you know what to look for you’ll see we were ALWAYS there.

but then the second wave of feminism hit, and with it came a lot of very loud upper-middle class white women’s opinions. political lesbianism became a thing, and lesbian separatism, and suddenly it wasn’t enough to just love women anymore. in fact, under political lesbian ideology, queer love for women didn’t factor in at all.

men were evil. men were inherently oppressors. men were sexually depraved animals that would ruin anything they touched. attraction under this ideology was an ethical choice. any woman who chose to align herself with a man was a traitor to the cause, and a victim of the patriarchy, and impure.

if that terminology sounds familiar, you’re right, it is! this was the birth of radical feminism, and with it came proto-TERFism.

now, please take a moment to consider why it became so important to center the exclusion of “men” in the definition of lesbianism. think about why a binary of “okay” and “not okay” genders would be encouraged, and who would benefit from their segregation.

all that said, i’ll address your concerns point by point

one of the bigger confusions for me with the mspec lesbian label is: what is a lesbian then?

the answer is the same as any queer identity. it’s up to personal interpretation. lesbian is a word that someone chooses to express theirself, to explain their identity, and to help find community where they belong.

in my opinion, and how i define lesbian for personal use: a lesbian is someone who experiences queer attraction to women, and prioritizes that attraction when seeking relationships.

but if a lesbian defines their personal experience with lesbianism around their lack of attraction to men, that’s cool! it’s their identity, and they’re the only one who can decide how to relate that to the real world.

the not cool part is when a singular experience is generalized, and touted as universal.

There Is No Universal Experience. the way you feel is not going to be exactly identical to everyone else.

Ive heard [lesbian] re-defined “queer attraction to women” but thats also for example what bisexual women have.

this seems to be a shocking statement to a lot of exclusionists. but. having things in common with other queer people is a good thing. yes, correct, bisexual women experience queer attraction to women. and they have personal reasons why they don’t identify with lesbianism, just like you (i assume) have personal reasons why you don’t identify with mspec labels. some people have personal reasons why they identify with multiple labels. and it’s not our business to pry into anyone’s private life!

also, as an aside bc it feels like a lot of people forget this: a bi woman’s queer attraction to women is not lesser than a lesbian woman’s. bisexuals and lesbians are equally queer. bi women and lesbian women have valuable shared experiences, including and not limited to their love for women, and the history of their communities.

Lesbianism centers women and its the only sexuality that doesnt include men.

it is not the only sexuality that doesn’t include men. ceterosexual. finsexual. enbian. neptunic. nominsexual. womasexual. hell, even bisexual doesn’t have to include men! i could go on and on and on, but my point is made.

if you don’t want to use a different label when you already identify with lesbianism so strongly, well… huh. i wonder who else feels that way 🤔

I dont see why lesbians cant just have our own label for our own sexuality?

this is a bad argument, and my absolute least favorite phrase to hear in a conversation about inclusivity. i will not give a question asked in such bad faith the dignity of a real response.

If we decide lesbianism includes men we wont even have a label for that shared experience anymore.

again, we’re not ~deciding~ that lesbianism includes men. multigender, genderfluid, nonbinary, butch, and otherwise genderqueer lesbians have always existed. it’s transphobic revisionism to say that they didn’t, to pretend this is a new concept.

parting statements

1) there are always reasons why a person connects with a label. when it comes to queer identity, a lot of people think long and hard about it. we’re talking hours upon hours of introspection- weeks, years even. if someone identifies in a way you don’t understand, it’s not your business to question them. they’ve thought about their experience more than you ever could.

2) because this is a big argument that gets thrown around: we are not going to force you to fuck men. we are not going to force you to fuck us. if you are not attracted to men, and/or you don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who could be, then walk away from them. that’s literally all it takes.

3) the acknowledgement and acceptance of mspec lesbians Does Not suggest or encourage the normalization of corrective rape, conversion therapy, or lesbophobic harassment. it does not contribute to lesbian erasure, as that is a problem with public representation and historical accounts, Not a matter of personal identity

repost, og posted feb 24, 2023

#bi lesbian #lunian #mspec lesbian #bi lesbian discourse #mspec lesbian discourse #i speak #anon #answers #long post #old blog

[bilesproblems]

"Identifying as a bi lesbian because you like enby genders as well as women is excluding nonbinary people from lesbian" that is entirely based on your pre-conceived idea that one cannot be bi and a lesbian at the same time, and that identifying as a bi lesbian is an admission that I'm not really a lesbian, or somehow a lesser lesbian.

The reality is that bi lesbian, used the way I use it, recognizes that elsegender people are a separate gender from women and that my attraction to them and to women is a bi experience (hence the bi in bi lesbian) yet also recognizes that they are part of lesbian attraction and my attraction to them and women is a lesbian experience (hence the lesbian in bi lesbian.)

It only excludes nb people from the 'base' lesbian if you think that I'm somehow saying I'm experiencing a lesbian form of attraction and a non-lesbian form of attraction, which isn't true.

Also, lesbians who are attracted to women and elsegender people who don't use any labels other than lesbian are valid, that attraction is mspec inherently but you don't have to specify it as being mspec (it's like mspec neptunic, you can use the specifier if you want but you don't have to, since you may see the label as inherently including an mspec experience anyway.) It only becomes a problem when you start calling yourself monosexual while attracted to more than one gender.

#mspec lesbian #bi lesbian #mspec lesbian safe #bi lesbian safe #pro mspec lesbian #pro bi lesbian #full moon springtide bi lesbian #lesbian #bisexual #bi #bi lesbians are valid #bi lesbian discourse #mspec lesbian discourse #mspec lesbians #mspec

[lesbee-dee]

Actually, I do care that the term "lesbian" is being co-opted by people who are attracted, romantically or sexually, to men. Maybe some of you who are not lesbians do not find the meaning of the label important. Maybe you don't understand why we want a label that explicitly excludes men, a label that describes our experiences. Like, what are we supposed to do? Move over? Create a new label for ourselves? Call ourselves "gay lesbians"? That is redundant.

I am not talking about comphet, or lesbians who were in relationships with men, who had sex with men. But if your attraction to men is so important to your identity that you would call yourself bi, then you are not a lesbian.

I cannot do this anymore. I am so upset.

THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT ATTRACTION TO TRANS WOMEN. TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN. TERFS DON'T INTERACT.

#also super cool to refuse to listen to your friend's perspective on this #/sarcasm #discourse #bi lesbian discourse

[thelovelyliz]

Sorry to jump into bi-lesbian discourse but...

When i say I don't like bi-lesbians and don't think they're valid I 100% don't mean the homoromantic bisexuals or biromantic homosexuals. Y'all are valid.

I mean the people who use the term "bi-lesbian" when they like both women and men but are more attracted to women, or they're attracted to both but feel more connected with the label of "lesbian". (i've seen ppl have those reasons)

I guarantee bi-lesbian haters hate those type of people and not those with split attraction, and seeing "bi-lesbian" in someone's bio or someone saying they're a bi lesbian off handedly, we're not gonna be able to tell right away if this is a bi lesbian with split attraction or using it for lesbiphobic reasons. So that's why a lot of us have a kneejerk reaction because the bad reasons for using the label disrupts the very foundation of being a lesbian.

I'll try to be sure to ask someone if they use the term to say they're a biromantic homosexual or if its for a different reason but it might be better for those people to type it all out to prevent confusion and misplaced hate.

edit: after talking with someone, they brought up a good point that biromantic homosexuals and homoromantic bisexuals are still bi in the sense of the word because biromantic aces are still bi and so are aro bisexuals. Lesbian being used to describe biromantic homosexual's feelings feels off cause "lesbian" means no attraction to men PERIOD.

#bi lesbian #mspec lesbian #bi lesbian discourse #lesbian

[a-faggot-with-opinions]

I feel like if I told a cis gay that I was starting to identify as a bi gay 9/10 times he would say "good, I knew that every bi man is still closeted" like... they would NOT be pressed it's already a massive stereotype in the mlm community.

the thing w the bi gay thing is that the ppl that care abt it are mostly lesbians who want to avoid looking like they have double standards when they criticize bi lesbians. but literally no gay man who touches grass gives a fuck. you like men? cool, come on into our communities, idgaf. and if someone tries to gatekeep you out of them, they're either biphobic or transphobic and you shouldn't listen to them.

#asks #bi gay discourse #bi lesbian discourse