what do you think toshiro's version of laios would've been like if he was still with the group during the shapeshifter shenanigans
there have been a few speculations in the tag and among the fans and they are all very good SO i am going to take this opportunity to insert a bit of my shipping bias as i like in my interpretation LMAO agdsfgdfgv
i noted that in actuality shuro seems to have a very good grasp on laios' character??? this is most obvious in the manga later on but even seeing how he criticises laios in their fight... iirc nothing he says is actually untrue or wildly exaggerated, and while he does express frustration over something he feels like laios Should have control over (noticing his cues), he is also aware that laios isnt being malicious and that hes Just Like That. what i mean to say is that while i think his version of laios may seem more pushy and in-your-face, i dont think it will be overwhelmingly so. if its post-fight, i think the idea of laios (and marcille) being willing to do anything to get falin back made a big impression on him, as well as the idea that they need to eat and rest in order to succeed in their goals, so those aspects would be prominent in his version. he seems pretty observant, so i think for the most part the physical traits would line up, but i think there would be specific things that stand out to him that would appear strangely striking on his version of laios (like. idk something about his eye colour or the subtle contrast of his armour and chainmail. he seems to have a weird sense of aesthetics if extras are anything to go by lmao). if hed actually been paying attention all those times laios had gone on about what the hell ever, then it might be even MORE hard to tell apart his version since he would also have a good grasp on what laios should know. so either his version of laios is pretty difficult to pick out, OR despite the character being accurate his appearance is too. stylised lmao (exaggerated features or something) OR!! they just get him to pull out his monster gourmet guide thing and are able to tell from there. iirc everyone was surprised at its appearance so its possible toshiro had also never seen it before
IN MY IMAGINARY SHIPPING SCENARIO............ lets say that his laios isnt able to be picked out immediately and that the monster guide thing also doesnt immediately occur to anyone. what the real laios Specifically notices is how close this other laios keeps getting to shuro. and hes like. ??? why is he getting so close to him, theres no way i get that close to him??? but no one else seems to be picking up on it as weird, so hes having a small crisis like do i REALLY get that close to him???? and now that hes on the outside he notices shuro subtly leaning away and he feels both a wave of shame and..... protectiveness??? (JEALOUSY??????) and he immediately steps in and grabs him like Hey!!! cant you see hes uncomfortable???? weve been through this already!!! and like. ok i cant believe im doing this again but i need to separate this into different endings
a) the whump route: i dont think shuro ever envisioned Actually Telling laios about his frustrations outside of being basically cornered into it. has he ever spoken up against what was expected of him?? has he ever been confrontational???? i think part of what held him back from expressing his frustrations, along with the cultural norms, could be fear of what the reaction would be. if he had done the same in any other aspect of his life (his family, his inheritance), i think he would expect disappointment, disapproval, more proof that he doesnt add up to expectation. to be honest i dont think he Truly believes that laios is the type of person to react like this. but it was strong enough to prevent him from acting and i think would be projected onto his image of laios. maybe fake!laios says something dismissive like Well if it really bothered him hed say something right? what, he cant even stand up for himself? cmon, shuro, prove that you cant handle it just like everything else. and thats pretty much the fastest giveaway that it isnt really laios. of course this would be a HUGE tonal departure from what the actual episode/chapter was, so:
b) the dumbass route: both laioses break into fisticuffs, and, yes.... barking. and so they speedrun the entire encounter as the shapeshifters true form appears and, after laios points out that thinking too hard about others versions of you can tear apart groups and peace of mind, they pointedly do not speak of it again. they think about it though. a LOT
c) the normal route: both laioses argue normal like and the group ends up being able to tell them apart because the fake laios goes on a little too long about how theyre all here for falin and everyones like ok its not like he DOESNT love his sister but.......... the rest of the scenario probably goes like canon, though then i would want to see what everyone Else thought of shuro
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Hello! 🧡 I'm curious how you balance viewing scripture as infallible while also not taking parts of it (Genesis in particular, to reference your recent post) literally. I've heard some people say that Genesis is meant to be a poetic version of creation and therefore not entirely truthful: sort of like a kids' story, how some details could be fudged without losing The Point. I get why God wouldn't give us all the details, and it's not like this is necessarily a core doctrine issue, but I guess what I'm asking is if scripture is infallible, why would it give an incorrect account?
Hey Anna! I'd love to talk about this! It's one of my favorite issues in the world, actually, so please be prepared for a whole lot of passion from me 😆
So the bottom line, like I said in my previous post, is that I believe that all Scripture is true and infallible, but that it ought not be read literalistically. This is not the same as saying that some Scripture is less true by virtue of using poetic language, nor that I believe that details have been fudged. For me (and others who interpret Scripture as I do), it comes down to analysis of Biblical language, style, and genre.
So okay, let me start by defining my terms:
History = A text detailing true events that actually happened. These accounts may use symbolic, metaphorical, or otherwise figurative language in the service of conveying these events. A history is also not necessarily complete in its detail or exact in its chronology unless the text itself makes those claims (ie it's possible for histories to backtrack and tell events again from another point of view; this is pretty common actually.)
Biblical figurative language can take a variety of forms depending on the genre of the text we're discussing, however in general it is used to express truths that cannot be expressed in other ways. I'm gonna quote Lewis again here, as I think his discussion of Biblical symbolism in Mere Christianity is really great and relevant. This is from book three, chapter 10 (Hope):
There is no need to be worried by facetious people who try to make the Christian hope of "Heaven" ridiculous by saying they do not want "to spend eternity playing harps." The answer to such people is that if they cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them. All the scriptural imagery (harps, crowns, gold, etc.) is, of course, a merely symbolical attempt to express the inexpressible. Musical instruments are mentioned because for many people (not all) music is the thing known in the present life which most strongly suggests ecstasy and infinity.
Crowns are mentioned to suggest the fact that those who are united with God in eternity share His splendour and power and joy. Gold is mentioned to suggest the timelessness of Heaven (gold does not rust) and the preciousness of it. People who take these symbols literally might as well think that when Christ told us to be like doves, He meant that we were to lay eggs.
Figurative language is used throughout the entire Bible. It's in discussions of heaven, like Jack illustrates here, but it's also frequently used in the Epistles ("I have been crucified with Christ") and, in the Gospels ("You must be born again.") It's heavily employed in the prophetic books, Psalms, and the wisdom literature (not even gonna pick an example, it's everywhere). It's used frequently throughout the Pentateuch (God "bore [the Israelites] up on eagle's wings"). It is used in Biblical histories ("[Samson's] soul was vexed to death"), though not to the extent that I believe it's used in Genesis 1-11. Sometimes the text telegraphs that figurative language is about to be used, but certainly not always.
None of these things are any less true than the things described in what we might call "plain" language. Rather, imagery is a tool that helps us understand the deeper truth of a thing; it "expresses the inexpressible" without causing us to doubt that the images are about something real. Sometimes, the language even tells us something that occured spiritually/from God's perspective, but which did not literally happen in the physical world (again, "I have been crucified with Christ.") I think it's clearly a mistake to conclude that the presence of figurative language means that the story is merely figurative or that it's incorrect.
So I read the Genesis 1-2 creation account as a largely figurative account of historical events, and I think it's written that way in order to convey God's perspective of creation. Certainly a human perspective on creation would be (a) theologically un-useful and (b) impossible for an ancient person to understand.
To expound on point (b) a little bit: even a modern person, with all the geological, paleontological, chemical, and genetic evidence that we have, simply cannot comprehend the expanse of what we call "deep time." Modern scientists must communicate these things in metaphors: they use 24-hour clocks in which each minute is thirty thousand years and football fields with geological epochs marked off at the various yard lines in order to try to express that which the human mind is fundamentally not equipped to grasp. The Bible should and must tell the story of creation from God's perspective, and to do that it must use figurative language.
Thus, "Days" are figurative days, but as such they convey greater truths about the way that creation appeared to God: it was gradual and periodic and God was patient, yet it did not seem to take eons to him. It was like a week of diligent work that produced good results.
Likewise, when the text says that God speaks light and land and life into existence, we can read that as a statement of God's incredible, beautiful power over creation. The moon likely formed in the "Big Splat," when another planet collided with proto-Earth and flung debris into space (I'm not even gonna touch the formation of the sun-- waaaaaay outside my wheelhouse). To God, these things were as simple as saying, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night" and then making them. The complex natural processes involved were simple before the Almighty God.
Likewise, the billions of years that are took for life to evolve, from self-replicating auto-catalytic molecules to microbes to multicellular life that arose from endosymbiosis and horizontal gene transfer, and then all the way down the epochs of history: the beautiful Cambrian Explosion, trilobites and the first chordates, then Tiktaalik propping itself up in shallow water and its tetrapod descendants stepping onto land for the first time; those strange, fascinating club-moss forests of the Carboniferous, dinosaurs and archaeopteryx taking to the skies, the K-T extinction event and then mammals picking up the torch and growing larger, whales returning to the seas and their vestigial legs disappearing, life, life life... All of that, to God, was two days of creation in which he spoke and natural processes produced the glorious array of life that existed when Adam and Eve came to be. He had authority over all of it. He said "Let the earth bring forth living creatures," and it did! God made them as surely as if he had sculpted them from clay with his hands, as miraculously as if He had spoken a word and they had existed in a split-second.
It's all true! All truth is God's truth! Every word of Genesis is God's truth, not despite the fact that it's written using figurative language, but because it is. We can understand truths that science alone can't account for - that in all the vastness of protein sequence space, God formed rubisco and ATP synthase: not by random chance, but through loving providence using randomness as a tool. We can see deep time as God sees it, not as a yawning abyss that we can't begin to properly conceptualize, but as a week in the mind of our great God who transcends time.
(My concluding paragraph is going to be somewhat harsh toward YE Creationists, but it cuts to the core of why I feel so strongly about how we read Genesis. I'm going to put it under the cut so that no one has to read it unless they want to; I'm not trying to attack anyone. I hope you know that I say all these things out of a place of deep, deep love.)
Returning to what Jack said: "If [people] cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them." YE Creationists would have us read Genesis without allowing for any figurative language; they would disregard the scientific method in order to do so. To my thinking, if a creation in seven 24-hour days were the intended meaning of the text- if we were, like children, meant to take everything in it entirely literally- then God would be a liar, because then he would have created a world in which the speed of light and geologic strata and the fossil record and even the evidence of our own DNA and physiology are all lying to us about how we were created. I could not love such a God.
But because I, like Jack, like millions of other Christians, can read the text of Scripture and interpret the figurative language it uses, I can instead marvel at the wonder and glory of our Creator-God, to whom epochs are like days, who can speak natural processes into existence. Scripture is history and it's poetry and it's all true. All truth is God's truth.
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wait hi it's me ourflagmeansgayrights messaging u from the main blog. i liked ur addition when u rb'd my post abt ed saying he doesn't have any friends, but i also saw ur tags and i would LOVE to hear ur tangent abt why the "izzy likes blackbeard not ed" interpretation is contradicted by the text. i've personally have been reading it that way, and most of what i've seen/heard abt ppl talking abt ed and izzy have been reading it that way, but i would rlly like to hear the other argument
Oh yes, @ourflagmeansgayrights . Absolutely. I love presenting arguments. (At length, as you will see 😅)
(Link to the mentioned post for reference)
Ok, so first, most important point - Edward is not a soft marshmallow center person whose true self is silk robes and sweets and singing. My first major meta for this fandom was an analysis of his character, which is pretty long but worth the read since that's where I'm coming from for ALL of this. (Also the skeleton of this whole analysis is in there too.) I'm going to use names the same way I did in that meta, where Edward is the real guy, and "Blackbeard" and "Ed" are both at least partially fake personas he's putting on. Got it? Ok.
Why Izzy Loves Edward (Not Blackbeard)
Obviously, Izzy does spend a lot of time propping up the unapproachable legend of Blackbeard, which is where I assume the idea he's fixated on it comes from. The thing is that this is what Izzy does in public, to other people, and it's kind of his job. Izzy in private is a different story.
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Broadly, Izzy's approach to the Blackbeard mask is very similar to and informed by Izzy's general approach to violence. Unlike multiple other characters, including Edward, Izzy isn't much of a sadist. He treats violence as a tool he's very skilled with. Uses it with purpose. He isn't invested in keeping Blackbeard around because he thinks he's real. Blackbeard is a tool that, in Izzy's assessment, they very much still need (and one that can be put away when not needed).
"Blackbeard" isn't just a persona of Edward's, he's a fuckery that Edward and Izzy both have invested a lot into maintaining. A way to keep them in power and unquestioned for decades in a profession where slipping up can get you murdered by your own crew. Blackbeard is especially armor for both of them because Izzy and Edward both have personal issues that cripple their ability to lead alone, so they operate as a codependent unit instead. Edward is still an active participant in this unit and the abusive power structure it utilizes when we first meet him, almost certainly because he agrees with Izzy that the traditional "never let them see you weak" style of piracy is valuable.
So you can imagine that his decision to go all in on trading "Blackbeard" for "Ed" a month or so later sends Izzy into a panic (exacerbated by the fact that Edward has not communicated with Izzy for shit in that entire timeframe). That's what's blowing up in 1x10. It has nothing to do with hating Edward himself, because as far as Izzy is concerned Edward is not being the real Edward at the moment, and he's mostly right. In fact, the main reason it can all go so disastrously wrong is because Edward is still himself under "Ed", and fully capable of making his own terrible panic decisions when Izzy reality checks him and accidentally hits the worst possible sore point.
That's Izzy and Blackbeard. A public front of intimidation and awe that keeps anyone from getting close enough to hurt Edward or Izzy. But the benefit Izzy gets from helping keep all this up is that he's is allowed, encouraged, even entitled to go behind the curtain as he pleases.
So he does. And Edward is happy to have him there.
Izzy in public is way more casual with Edward than others are, doing things like being the only one allowed to use his name, but Izzy alone with Edward is on another level. He can't possibly think Blackbeard is real, because there is no way in hell he would interact this comfortably with Blackbeard.
One of their first interactions is Izzy getting an order and immediately whining "Oh Edward, can't I just send the boys???" And Edward teases him about it! He's not remotely mad or treating it like insubordination (probably because there is no question Izzy will get it done). It's a joke between them! Oh lol Izzy's gonna hate this! And while I do think Izzy deliberately doesn't try very hard because he thinks Stede is stupid, I don't think he's consciously plotting to lie to Stede and then Edward or even entirely aware he did so. Stede did shut down that interaction very quickly without getting all the information, and that's kinda on him.
In 1x04 we are seeing them completely out of sync, but also the episode is littered with echoes of intimacy. Edward's little "Izzy, they've got a bird guy" bit and showing him the boat with such enthusiasm are not habits that get ingrained if Izzy has never reacted positively to that kind of sharing in the past, even if he's too distracted by imminent death for fun right then. And Edward goes straight from the boat to a vent about his boredom and frustration.
On Edward's end of the conversation alone the timing is awful, he won't share his plan to assuage Izzy's worries about the imminent death problem to make the timing better, and his wording leaves a lot to be desired, but it's a very human emotional moment and he's not afraid of or concerned at all about sharing it with Izzy. He trusts Izzy. Unfortunately, both of them are kind of disasters at solving emotional problems on a good day, so Izzy is not exactly equipped to respond well and unsurprisingly fails to do so.
Later, Izzy pulls Edward away to talk alone and does his own emotional vent in the resignation scene, which is about the same level of successful communication as the last one - read: basically none - but, again, Izzy isn't afraid of backlash here. He's talking to Edward, not Blackbeard. He's always talking to Edward. Edward is the brilliant sailor he chooses to follow and the person he treats like an equal in personal matters. And Edward is the one he apologizes to at the end of the episode, and stays for when asked.
And I think the real evidence that Izzy is perfectly fine with the parts of Edward that aren't Blackbeard is in 1x06. ("Let me kill for you" conversation my beloved! 💓)
The thing is that Izzy is not an emotionally vulnerable person, and definitely not a talking about your emotional vulnerability kind of person. And to be honest, I don't really think Edward is either, he's just so desperate for something right now that he'll do it anyway. So whether or not they've talked about something is less important then their actions, and holy fuck does this episode imply some actions.
The reveal that Edward doesn't kill with his own hands throws a lot of Izzy's actions leading up to the duel into a new light, because I just don't see how Izzy could not be aware of that fact. He's Edward's right hand. He must have noticed, and Edward likely knows he did. In fact, if Edward makes a habit of telling the kraken story, I wouldn't be surprised if Izzy put "Edward killed his shitty dad" together too. And that knowledge adds a lot of context to what Izzy's doing, even if I can guarantee they've never talked about it.
Of course Izzy is unsurprised that Edward never killed Stede in his sleep and isn't taking a lack of action as a sign the plan is off. Of course he doesn't assume that the conversation is done when Edward agrees to kill Stede in front of Fang and Ivan. So he goes to Edward, alone, and he offers to take care of it. That's huge! If Izzy had objections to the real Edward then this should be a massive sticking point. He should be irritated that Edward is too weak to handle his own problems at best, and more likely actively pushing him to do so, but he's not! The only part of this that Izzy seems concerned with is making sure no one else knows, and that's a matter of common sense considering Edward threatens to kill people for a living.
Izzy doesn't mind at all that Edward can't kill like Blackbeard ought to. He's happy do it for him. Note this is a good time to remember that Izzy is not a sadist or particularly prone to violence as problem solving, meaning the "for you" bit is way more important than the "let me kill" bit. This is another behind the curtain thing, just like using Edward's name or getting teased by him in private, and Izzy loves those things. Like, to the point of jealously guarding them and getting real pissed that when he's being shut out, Stede is getting let in.
This is getting kinda long and I'd like to wrap it up today so I'm going to skip straight to 1x10.
I already touched on the blowup, but let's talk about before the blowup. Edward is a mess. He gets back to the ship, asks Izzy to bring him tea, and the next time we see him he's gone full breakup mode. He's been crying, the room is covered in booze bottles and marmalade jars, and he's in a blanket fort. I doubt there has ever been a moment in his life where he is less Blackbeard than that. And what is Izzy doing (at least before Edward takes his mess public)?
Well, freaking the fuck out, but also trying desperately to cover for him. That's it.
Izzy is the only one who has been seeing Edward. He has brought him tea, and food, and booze and marmalade. If Edward hasn't left that fort - and it sure doesn't look like he has - then I think it is entirely reasonable to assume Izzy crawled in there every day and offered the saddest attempt at emotional support you have ever seen in your life, all the way up until Edward requested Lucius. Pre-blowup there is nothing about Edward's demeanor that implies Izzy has been unpleasant or hostile to his grieving.
Izzy is full on panicking in a nightmare scenario for the whole "don't let them see you weak" mindset - a crew that is way too comfortable asking questions with nothing to distract them - and at the same time he's just supporting Edward as best he can while letting him be sad for a while. His best is pitiful, yeah, but does that sound like a man who can't stand the real Edward?
The tipping point is only when all this goes public. A clear violation of the established rules, a serious potential danger, and Edward casually makes it way worse when he drops the double hit of "Why are we even being pirates?" and stating he wants everyone to call him "Ed".
That's rejection with a blast radius.
That's "I'm unilaterally deciding everything we've built is worthless." That's "Everything you've done to try and maintain us was pointless." That's "Seeing behind the curtain isn't special anymore."
That's "You aren't special anymore, and I don't even care enough to notice I'm telling you this by accident."
"Ed" rejects Izzy, Izzy rejects "Ed", the "Ed" mask slips...
Eventually we end up with The Kraken.
Another major point that people use to say Izzy wants Blackbeard is that Izzy wanted the Kraken. Except he doesn't say that. His "threats" in the cabin confrontation are completely vague. He doesn't tell Edward what he wants from him beyond NOT this unrecognizable "Ed", or even what he would do if his explosion was ignored. It's not fundamentally different from the explosion in 1x04, and that's kinda the problem for Edward because 1x04 almost ended with Izzy leaving for good. Hello, freshly hurting abandonment issues! Ready to drive Edward to some really fucked up decisions?
And as far as Izzy's whole "Blackbeard is himself again" goes... The man is not exactly a good liar, and that is a really obvious lie.
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So yeah. Izzy is in love with Edward. I feel like the text makes it clear that Izzy values the fact that he gets to know Edward while everyone else is kept at bay by the Blackbeard persona, and Edward doesn't maintain any personal boundaries on his end that imply this intimacy isn't reciprocal.
They are in the middle of a depression spiral and contested divorce right now and not communicating for shit, and I don't think either of them was a talk through their feelings kind of person before, but there is a history of vulnerability and trust there. And not just on a professional level, though their jobs and lives are so intertwined that everything is a little work related.
They are a disaster, honestly, but I do love them so. Mutual toxicity and all. 💓
(Season 2 really needs to make these men talk to each other, though.)
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