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red-hood-vigilante · 3 years

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more hbo spn rambles, thoughts, drabbles etc. long long post.

part 1 here

there’s some things i’ve omitted here bc others have already posted about those things, certain headcanons and characterizations and stuff. those posts are in my likes somewhere (and i’ll reblog them someday), and there’s some posts i’ve read but not liked, which i now can only vaguely remember, which is why some ideas/thoughts are similar

ALSO most of these follow the model i talked about in part one: how s1-5 will stay more or less how they are but s6-10 is changed (some things are cut out entirely, some things are tweaked and some characters + arcs are more fleshed out. more focus on sam’s trauma and post-cage adaptation to the real world as well as dean letting his rage and control issues consume him and how he’d recover and redeem himself)

as i typed these paragraphs, i realized i really have 10 seasons mapped out and ready to go. hbo hire me!!

alright go:

sam and dean get wearier as the show progresses (second half), and eventually they stop putting so much care and thought in the people they save. like...hm how do i say this, like as long as a victim/victims are saved, they don’t care about how that happens or how those people suffer potential consequences, like if the victims lose a limb or have their homes burned down because of the monster, then sam and dean don’t really care. they saved your life, now they’ll leave you with your life in potential shambles and not care because all that matters is that they saved your life, not how it is afterwards. they still care about saving that one person, but eventually it pales a little in comparison to a war between heaven and hell, being the vessels etc. ---> saving people becomes less about making sure they’re actually alright and healing from horrific events and more about just making sure they have a pulse before they move on

when angels lose their wings they are either burned off in the actual fall or ripped off of them in their vessels, which leaves pretty nasty scars on the vessel

ed and harry are so young and bright eyed about the whole hunting thing; sam and dean as kids, idolizing it, finding it exciting and intriguing when they shouldn’t. sam and dean try to get them out of the business before they too are too traumatized and desensitized to do anything but hunt. neither sam or dean will say it but they are jealous of ed and harry and their freedom to leave, and hate them for choosing this voluntarily instead of being dragged into it by tragedy

hbo spn is a slow burn. there’s a lot more shots of sam and dean in silence just sitting together after a hunt, exhausted and too tired to move yet. they’re covered in blood and guts on the side of the road after killing or covered with dirt in a graveyard after burning bones, sitting next to the fire, just watching it. the times they park the car and watch the stars? we get to see it.

dean wears rings and the amulet all the time in the beginning, for the first five seasons. the rings vary; first they’re some of john’s old ones and stuff he finds in thrift stores. then later on he begins wearing rings from people they’ve saved/haven’t saved as a keepsakes etc. when he begins his descent to the holy murderer in s6-10 he wears less and less rings. they don’t matter anymore -> symbolically shedding who he was and what mattered to him

the only accessories sam has is a rosary/cross around his neck. he has jess’ engagement ring in his pocket/wallet. after the cage he vaguely remembers why the ring was there and who jessica was (more on this further down)

the four horsemen are manifestations of different aspects of human nature at its most grotesque and strongest, can’t be killed as long as humans live. war is conflict, famine is desire, pestilence is physical and mental illnesses.

(the seven sins are like the horsemen, tulpas of human nature instead of demons)

death isn’t a concentration of an existing aspect of humans as much as it is the end of life, the antithesis of life. death the oldest of the horsemen and has existed since the beginning of any life, organism, cell and atom. the opposite of life and light, the other half of god (as i’m typing this i’m confused as to why amara was the opposite of god instead of death). death isn’t evil or good, remains 100% objective. doesn’t care for sam or dean at all, but has a begrudging respect for their stubbornness and entertainment they provide due to their flat out refusal to do as they’re told by celestial bodies when anyone else would crumble

by including death i feel like it very naturally begs questions of who decides when someone dies, when someone lives, why would death follow these guides instead of reaping whomever whenever, what happens if a life isn’t reaped at the right time etc. the reader in me adore the idea of death having a library with books and records of everyone who has ever lived and died and how they died - but then, who writes these books and why? do they decide, and if in that case, how? these questions are above my paygrade but you know what i mean? like there has to be some sort of system right, god created everything, death executes to maintain order, some third party deity writes the laws and the books. the three branches of government. ok but it’s hbo so again, i think we shouldn’t dive this deep into things, like as much as these topics intrigue me i don’t want to stray too much from the dirt road trip aesthetic

shapeshifters are extremely rare because they don’t require any kind of human blood or organs/sacrifice to live

i want more exploration of how magic is like science, like it just needs the right ingredients and right conditions. sam thinks of magic as an obscure branch of science; it just requires research and knowledge and clear intentions because science can be controlled and do a lot of good when used responsibly. dean doesn’t like it. he doesn’t trust the unpredictable elements and he’s seen enough to know it never goes well. magic is a force that can’t be controlled by anyone.

sam and dean have full on fist fights regularly. to practice and keeping each other sharp, but also because they’re siblings. they’re feral, insane and unhinged with each other and they get on each other’s nerves A LOT. it’s petty and childish and sometimes it can get a lil ugly but it becomes their way of family therapy. after a fight the next scene cuts to sam and dean with ruffled clothes, nosebleeds and swollen lips at a diner eating silently after beating each other up. either they sit in silence because they’re tired or both are harping on the other’s openings and weaknesses

sometimes they’ll fight a little dirty but they do so in different ways; dean will pull the old ‘look!’ and point to something and then tackle sam when he turns to look while sam will just cry out in fake pain which makes dean stop dead in his tracks before sam headbutts him or kicks him in the groin

we, the audience get used to these fights, they’re sometimes funny and for comic relief, sometimes for narrative purposes (like tricking a monster they’re fighting each other when they’re really not) BUT. then comes the times when sam and dean are actually fighting without holding back and we see how much they are capable of hurting each other or how heartbreaking and difficult it can be to watch when of them are incapable of fighting back/doesn’t defend himself -> swan song when dean doesn’t fight back against possessed sam, or when dean beats soulless sam unconscious

sam and dean also just verbally bully each other constantly but they do have their odd ways of expressing affection and care. they get the other person their fave snack whenever they go grocery shopping without being asked to and are the only other one they truly trust to have their back in hunts. have a cup of coffee ready before the other asks for one. brothers and each other’s best friend. nightmare duo but in a sweet way. the cooperation of ‘the usual suspects’ when they’re in different interrogation rooms but still has the cover story down to a t. code words and code names and cover stories, they know it all

when sam and dean fight together against a common enemy they’re a damn nightmare - because they know each others weaknesses and habits, they cover each other perfectly and in complete silence. they’ve been at it together since they were kids and read each other’s nonverbal cues like a picture book

to build off of what i said in part 1; the winchesters are pretty hated in the hunter’s community. even the people sam and dean frequently work with (bobby, ellen, jo, ash, rufus, bela, kevin, charlie, castiel etc) roasts them all the time and don’t hesitate with calling them out on their self-pitying crap when it get’s too much (spn was just objectively better when characters weren’t afraid of dragging sam and dean through the mud for being selfish and stupid) and this WILL persist in hbo spn. the only reason people continue working with sam and dean is because they know deep down a lot of the things that happens aren’t sam and dean’s fault - but they still blame them for it. doesn’t make it easier how sam or dean sometimes start crap on purpose to save the other

the winchesters are terrifying and people for sure tell stories about them, but not like ‘they’re heroes’, more like ‘they’re insane and dangerous. stay the fuck away from them’. some stories are true, like how they’ve worked with demons, but some are just game of telephone. (dean has apparently a ghost he is frequently possessed by while sam is actually a mutant vampire). hunters hate and are scared of the winchesters. sam and dean are never invited to hunter stuff (burials, memorials etc) but crash them nonetheless even though the hunters do NOT want them there.

you know what drives me insane when i think about it? how some characters in spn already are their hbo spn counterparts; john. mary. adam. maybe kevin?

other things that already are their hbo spn counterparts: dean throwing away the amulet right in front of sam. eyes burning when angels are seen. how ghosts are just tragedies, stuck in a loop they can’t leave. how a lot of the monsters they meet are just victims or their circumstances or the first victim of a curse. the impala being sam and dean’s home. dean not knowing how to comfort sam when he’s upset other than trying to do things for sam that usually brings dean comfort (driving the impala, listening to rock music etc). the roadhouse. heaven being an eternal version of the memories that made you the happiest even though it’s not real. sam wanting independence and freedom but never fully having it. dean fearing being alone more than anything else and that’s where he always ends up. sam has an eating disorder after the demon blood and dean has an alcohol problem he refuses to see as a problem. dean saying “i’d do it again” without an ounce of regret and pouring himself a drink when sam tells him it was fucked up to lie to him about gadreel

the demon/angel hybrid: THIS could be sooo interesting to explore. an angel and demon hybrid are you kidding me?? not to toot my own horn too much but i’m so clever. i should write this story myself. SO. does this creature have parents who fucked in their vessels or was this an experiment by god (yes i love the ‘mad scientist’ idea, that really should’ve been played up way more) or did a pre-existing creature (human or otherwise) drink demon blood and angel grace at the same time so that it created itself? so much potential for some really intriguing storytelling and character exploration - not only the creature itself and what they would be like, but also for the people around; sam, dean, castiel, jack etc. how would they react to this thing that is the very definition of defying heaven and hell and all the natural laws? does it exist before the show starts or will we see its birth?

the powers of the demon/angel hybrid would be tricky; a mix of holy and defiant, grotesque and beautiful. unconsciously forces people to tell the truth when talking to them. poisons whatever they touch. eyes of a demon, wings of an angel. can smite but skin will burn when touching iron. can do deals but will require a sacrifice in return, not a soul, usually a body part taken then and there (the hybrid eats it. it favours eyeballs and the liver - angels like raw meat). lights always flicker. makes things explode when angry (esp people and cars). can manipulate feelings, thoughts and memories. can travel to both heaven and hell, not welcome in either places. + standard stuff like telekinesis, teleportation, mind reading, super strength etc.

sam and dean’s wardrobe are pretty much the same; whatever’s cheap and not covered in blood. however, they do have stylistic differences. sam thinks graphic tees are funny, dean uses whatever’s black combined with john’s leather jacket. their wardrobe melds as they stop thinking of themselves as individuals and more of “me and my brother,”. their clothes are tattered and torn to shreds all the time. hand me downs, hand me ups. when they stray off their “path” and do things that are the crux of a storyline/character arc, this would reflect in their clothes. when sam is with ruby and becomes more and more “evil” he wears more and more red, a colour he has stated in the past he doesn’t really like. when dean is dead, sam starts to wear his rings and john’s and dean’s leather jacket. when dean decides he’s going to say yes to michael he dresses in white, when sam is dead dean takes off every piece of jewelry except the amulet. he holds it clenched in his fists when he’s whispering what comes close to a prayer

logically the amulet should have a backstory but you know what? i love that it’s hinted to be just a piece of cheap jewelry sam found in a thrift store he decided to give to dean. but narratively it should be explained so... idk. what could be logical solution as to why it would react to GOD himself? maybe god wore it once cuz he thought it was neat but he sold it for three dollars because he wanted coffee and then sam found it a week later

i would prefer it if god didn’t show up at all (absent father number one) but if he DID he’s not all powerful just a true neutral (like death, 100% objective) who created a thing that just took a life of its own, much like a parent and a child - the parent helps the child but can’t control it. the times he did intervene or tried to do something it didn’t really have any real long lasting effect so he gave up on trying a while ago.

@spneveryseason talked about this, how the storyline of sam being possessed by gadreel would be horrifying if we saw everything from sam’s perspective instead of dean’s (her fic is wonderful). in the ‘dean slowly descends into a righteous murderer to become holy’ idea i have this tracks so damn well because again, if dean believes something is right, it is right, no questions about it. everyone around him is like “that’s really fucked up and you should make amends” but dean doesn’t see any reasons for why - sam is alive isn’t he? and seeing it from sam’s pov would really underline how horrifying, dehumanizing and belittling that experience was

john and mary are adam and eve. sam and dean are cain and abel are michael and lucifer. time is a flat circle. history never stops repeating itself.

sam is the villain of s4. he is manipulated and key information is withheld from him but in the end... would it made a difference? it crossed his mind, that he could be tricked because ruby is a demon after all, but maybe he likes the power, the feeling of freedom, that he wasn’t just the baby, the one who always needs permission to do things. if he has to drain possessed people to get that power... so be it. and it’s for a good purpose, until it isn’t. he’s hungry for more, to be feared and respected. he’s enticed by lucifer’s sweet words, the potential of all that power and the idea of ruling two out of three realms. dean manages to pull him back from the brink because sam decides he doesn’t want to be what john thought he was and fail dean and himself like that.

dean is the villain in s9. he is controlling, the mark of cain without the mark. what he says goes - it’s not a democracy, it’s a dictatorship. he doesn’t see how much pain, doubt and fear he causes the people around him. if some victims or civilians die on his watch that doesn’t matter - just some collateral damage. sam can’t make dean listen to him because dean is the older one, the one who’s always called the shots. dean is the angelic one, heaven’s chosen warrior, he is untouchable and unkillable. he’s is an excellent killer, filling the void with blood and rage which is better than the crippling fear of loneliness carved into his bones. 'i butcher for love, to protect,’ he tells himself. ‘why shouldn’t i exterminate, regardless of the cost? i’ve followed the rules, i’ve always sacrificed. now i call the shots. it’s my right.’

sam’s hell trauma is never magically removed. he’s stuck with the memories and the nightmares and the occasional hallucinations. castiel can’t do anything but offers to wipe his memory completely, but sam says no, he is still doing penance.

after dean comes back from hell he starts calling himself old man and jokes a lot about he’s 40 years older now (after he’s more comfortable about speaking about hell)

when sam comes back he feels ancient (he’s over 900 years old at least but he lost count), weary, tired and so so so out of place in this world. he’s forgotten how to put gas in a car, how to drive, how to use a credit card, all the song lyrics he and dean used to yell together, the faces of people he knew before he fell, the softness of a bed, the schools he went to, most of the hunts he and dean, how john died, who mary is, the initials carved into the impala, the taste of food that isn’t raw meat. it’s so much he’s forgotten that he has to relearn. he prefers figuring things out with castiel instead of dean because castiel doesn’t silently resent him for everything he’s forgotten

sam doesn’t laugh anymore. despite dean’s many and castiel’s few awkward attempts, it’s more like quick smile and a quiet “hmm”. on some days he recoils when he sees blood and guts, on other days he’s so apathetic it’s unnerving

sam sympathizes with the brought back mary and castiel more than ever. dean tries to get sam to remember things he’s forgotten from his childhood but sam can’t connect with it anymore. he stopped being that sam a long time ago. dean doesn’t know what else to do than try to force this connection to be revitalized and he fails. sam isn’t that person anymore and this wedge in their relationship becomes a central factor in dean’s s6-10 desperation and isolation. sam is here and safe but it’s not really sam, not the sam dean grew up with

while sam has forgotten how to make coffee, he now knows everything about angels, effective torture tricks, a bunch of lore + biblical history, how to navigate hell, the most powerful and influential demons, rare and powerful spells as well as perfect enochian (he will speak enochian without realizing and it feels more natural than english). lucifer and michael were surprisingly talkative (raging about the unfairness) when taking their anger and hatred out on sam and adam and each other. sam had access to all of lucifer’s memories and knowledge for the time he was the one in control. walking library and encyclopedia of biblical lore.

he still has some muscle memory from hunting and sparring, but sam is ghostly thin and very rusty. even though he’s an expert on lore, he’s not fit to go on hunts anymore and he knows it.

sam remembers adam and swears he’ll try to get him out, but he can’t. just thinking about the cage makes him vomit. he can’t talk about it, much less go near it. after a while sam thinks it might be better to let adam stay down there than let him come back up and feel this crushing emptiness and loss of direction

sam’s trials take place in s9 instead of 8; coinciding with dean’s villain arc. for sam the trials are a chance to redeem himself again, this time for good by closing hellgates forever. they’re scrubbing him clean of the demon blood and his sins and they give him a sense of purpose again now that he can’t join hunts anymore. it doesn’t matter if he dies because of it. it would be nice with a permanent and peaceful death that did something good. dean is taken aback by sam’s devotion to repent for something that happened years ago and for something sam has already paid for a thousand times over. dean realizes how messed up he himself has become and how he’s helped put sam here, on the cusp of self sacrifice again because of sickening guilt and self hatred. dean begs sam to not complete the trials at the cost of his own life and swears he’ll better himself, be a friend and a brother, not a jailer, dictator or a murderer. ‘if you won’t give yourself or life another chance, please give me one.’ ---> s10 pacifist dean learning to let go of the control, the violent tendencies and the rage

oh wait what if gadreel still possessed sam after the trials to heal him but sam is the one who invites the angel in? he’ll keep his promise to dean about staying alive, as well as heal from the inside and have breaks from the world when he doesn’t want to be present, like he and gadreel will alternate being the one in control. he keeps it a secret from dean and helps gadreel imitate him so dean won’t notice. it’s not so bad, being possessed by this angel - sam can say no anytime and gadreel is a nice guy. since they alternate on who’s present they can access each other’s memories, which is terrifying and embarrassing at first, but since gadreel and sam have been tricked and used by lucifer and been punished for it for far too long, they understand each other. now another creature knows their trauma and terrors without the need for verbal explanation. also having an angel residing in his body makes sam feel like he can hunt properly again because gadreel can heal him and take over in situations sam’s overpowered. this could show how messed up sam has come to view himself and his body.

dean is conflicted when he finds out; sam lied but gadreel does help sam heal, sam’s traumatized and his self-worth is fucked up and dean has contributed to that. dean convinces sam to push gadreel out, that sam is still valuable, loved and a good person who shouldn’t be in a place where he views his body and mind like a property to be occupied. sam’s faith begins to come back bit by bit, not in god, but in himself, his brother, in the good things in life. they build their little family; sam, dean, castiel, the hybrids, whomever of their allies that are alive at this point.

castiel can heal sam and dean’s wounds but they are never completely gone; they leave scars and phantom pains. the brothers have SO many scars over the years. dean flaunts them to impress people because he likes the questions and the fearful admiration, the attention and the nods of approval. sam hides them.

when dean is in a bad mood or needs to get his mind off of things, sam just drops something like ‘i don’t get the deal with led zeppelin. one of the most overrated bands of all time’ and dean will go OFF every single time about the entire led zeppelin history, their discography and how they’ve shaped rock music. this will go on for hours and sam will zone out after 1 minute. but dean rants nonsensically the entire drive and it does get him to think about something else for a little bit. they stop at a motel and dean is STILL ranting while brushing his teeth. stops when going to sleep but without fail picks up where he left off the morning after and is so into it he doesn’t notice sam not paying attention at all. we could see this once in s1 when they’re searching for john, another in s3 when dean is anxious about his deal coming to an end and then again in a later season, when sam doesn’t remember to ask/doesn’t have the patience or mental capability, so they’ll sit there in tense silence, showing how much they’ve changed.

---> i can see this SO clearly in my head, how they’ll get in the car and we, the audience, will recognize the camera angle, the same lines and dean’s grumpy mood, and we’ll anticipate what comes next. but sam isn’t that kid anymore and he’s not peeking at dean to gauge what his mood is and how much of a shit eating grin he should wear when being an annoying little brother to cheer dean up. now he’s looking out the window, leaned back, they’re not looking at each other. this shot is a minute or two long, uninterrupted. dean turns on music but neither are singing along or doing anything to lighten the mood.

s1-5: sam gets hooked on demon blood, dean has an alcohol problem. when sam goes through withdrawals, dean decides to quit drinking and joins him because he wants to be supportive, and he realizes that when he drinks two beers for breakfast there’s a problem

s6-10: sam takes painkillers, anti depressants and anti psyhosis meds to numb himself from the phantom pains and reduce post-cage effects. dean started drinking again after sam jumped and still does, but started smoking in addition because he still drives a lot and doesn’t want to die in something as pathetic as a car crash.

there a scene in an episode in the first half of s8, when sam has decided to stay with dean instead of amelia, and dean has rejected benny in favor of sam, and then the brothers sit in a couch watching tv while drinking beer and neither of them look particularly happy about it - that’s how their relationship is a lot of the time. they know they’re fucked up and neither of them will ever be truly happy when the other’s around, but they owe each other so much and they don’t have to explain themselves to each other the way they do to others. they know each other so well, each other’s traumas and the things they’ve done, it feels fake and exhausting to try to be something other than the veteran hunters they are. misery loves company; they are miserable together but would be far more miserable apart and living a normal life. they do love each other, but neither of them are particularly happy as the show progresses. family is hell and so is the lack of it.

OK OK i mentioned it in part one, how i had my own very specific idea about how jack should come to be and here it is. long winded but (might just write a damn fic):

after lucifer was cast back into the cage, he is stronger than he has been in a long time (being in his true vessel helped him stretched muscles he forgot he had. and fresh air.) sam is pulled out of the cage and it leaves a rift in the magic and chains - the binding is weaker and lucifer must act fast to get out before it heals. the cage is still strong enough to hold two archangels, so lucifer has to become weaker somehow to slip out through the cracks. he can’t get out of the cage, but souls can come in. demons bring themselves and human souls as tools for lucifer to use. there’s not much he can do here - consuming them, eating them, touching them, dissecting them doesn’t give him what he wants

eventually lucifer realizes he must do like azazel and create something new of two halves, like when he created demons. he begins melding his archangel grace with a human soul. he tries with demons, but his archangel grace automatically purifies them and leaves them too weak. he must try with a human soul who is good. he finds the soul of kelly kline, who sold her soul to save a loved one. with her, the merging, works.

he has another self, a twin, a son, who’s half human and half archangel. half lucifer. the old lucifer will die but that’s ok, his desires, presence and self will live on in his new creation. the new lucifer barely makes it out of the cage, only able to due to its human side. on earth it creates a body for itself and takes shape, no longer a form of pure power and energy akin to the sun itself but now a person, reminiscent of kelly kline on earth and lucifer in heaven. they name themselves jack. jack searches for familiarity and finds it in sam, their old self’s perfect tool and another hybrid. jack finds a mentor in castiel, a younger brother and fellow angel with human elements. they do not find anything in dean, the key to his former self’s doom.

jack’s powers: their powers are like and unlike the angels because he is half archangel. jack has wings but sometimes they don’t work, or they’ll end up somewhere else entirely. their body is their own, not a vessel, so jack can’t possess people. doesn’t talk but people “know” what they’re saying or want because jack emits their emotions and thoughts to people they’re talking to like a radio tower. jack can also have this empathic connection and communication with animals. his mood affects the weather. immortal. reads minds. can remove a soul from a body and send it to heaven/hell by touching it, with practice they don’t need to touch a body.

other stuff about jack: the human/archangel nature means jack only need sleep and food once a week or so. eats only nougat and raw meat. because jack is a kid they nap a lot. levitates when sleeping. never blinks, stares intensely at everything. their eye colour changes based on their mood. eyes glow in the dark. normal humans who look at jack for too long experience memory loss, fainting spells or migraines and eye contact for more than 10 seconds give vivid hallucinations of their worst nightmares. always barefoot, often floats like 10 cm off the ground because they find it more enjoyable than walking. wears the wildest clothes they can find, nothing matches and nothing is weather appropriate

i have a very specific image of jack in my mind; they look like delirium from the sandman comics with the hair that looks like it’s underwater and the fishes floating around their head, here and here are examples. in live action this would look not good or maybe even ridiculous for sure but in animation... endless potential for angels and monsters to have super interesting designs sigh

castiel’s arc should end with him going from blind soldier, to the unwilling ruler of heaven, finding a place on earth with sam and dean, becoming closer with humanity and eventually a father of three (the hybrids).

#hbo spn #sam winchester #dean winchester #supernatural #iben spoke #ok i'm tired of looking at this now #i just needed to get these thoughts out of my head to get some peace and quiet #more character centric than part 1 #and it turned into such a long post.... jesus #i should make a separate post for post cage sam headcanons #ana if you see this i'm so sorry to drag you into this mess but i wanted to give credit where credit is due

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ambelle · 3 years

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I don’t see how people actually like Dick/Dawn together? I thought the writers used the relationship to show that Dawn (like Robin) is Dick’s past. He was with her at a time in his life when he was young. He pretty much confirmed that with Rachel in 1x02. Meeting Kory changes Dick. Donna (Dick’s oldest and dearest friend) quickly realizes he has feelings for Kory (who she witnessed trying to kill Rachel) yet he defends her to the end. She says Kory’s a dangerous woman and he messed up with Dawn but Dick persists in helping Kory anyway. Donna’s words are fresh in Dick’s mind when being tested by Trigon in the S1 finale. Trigon shows Dick what his life could be with Dawn. Dick seems happy on the surface with a “normal” life; however, is easily distracted once he returns to Gotham and Kory comes back into the picture. The ordeal with Trigon reveals to Dick that Kory (not Dawn) is his light when Batman kills her and he gives into his darkness. He even asks Kory to come with him and the kids in 2x01, but she says she still has some things to work out. Dick obliges as she did after the asylum experience. Moreover, Dick/Dawn’s chemistry pales in comparison to Dick/Kory and their relationship hasn’t even been fully fleshed out yet. There is a trust, loyalty, protection and intimacy he’s got with her that isn’t shared with the rest of the team (old or new) which is why none of them realized he was about to sacrifice himself for Jason. They all abandon him (with the exception of Gar) when he tells the truth about Jericho. Kory comforts him and says that things will get better once they get over themselves. If Fidei wasn’t an issue Kory would’ve stayed too. After Rachel came to her senses and tried to enlist Donna, Dawn and Kory to find Dick the only one that helps her is Kory. She seems to hint that she fell in love (with Dick) when she talks to the psychiatrist she hooked up with in 2x11. S3 will most likely revisit them saying that they would try again after they figured out who they are and what they plan to become. Working closely with Kory again and the threat of losing her (whether in battle with her sister or to a new love) I hope will push Dick to come to grips with his feelings for her as well. #SlowBurnTorture

“He pretty much confirmed that with Rachel in 1x02.” <<< Honestly this part.

I have no idea why people like DickDawn/ think they are a threat to Dickkory. He does not have romantic feelings for Dawn in present day. And yeah when he and Donna had that conversation about Dawn (which in context was her casually blaming him for Joey’s death yikes) he didn’t even react. His focus was finding and helping Kory.

With the Trigon thing I think Dawn represented the life he thinks he wants/ would have if he quit being a hero. Not sure why anyone thinks that quitting being a hero is a good thing on a show about being a hero LOL...But anyway Dawn and Jason pushed him to go to Gotham and help Bruce who represented darkness to him. I think Kory was his subconscious. She appeared out of nowhere and pushed him to be happy and free much like she did in real life. And the last thing Dawn says to him in that dream is “of course it’s Kory.” Because yeah it’s obvious where this is all going.

And I don’t know if it’s the directing or Brenton but if you pay attention to group scenes Dick doesn’t even look at Dawn. And although I think Dawn harbours attraction towards Dick I don’t think she loves him anymore or she wouldn’t have left him to rot in prison. (I mean I’m not convinced her love confession was genuine in the past considering how easy it was for her to leave him after Slade almost killed him but I digress.) And he didn’t return that I love you. If they really wanted to sell us the ship they have been doing an awful job.

Season 2 showed us Dickdawn completly fall apart as she and the others put all the blame on him even though he was grieving too. Dawn is no different from Hank and Donna but Kory is. S2 was basically the group divided into who gives a damn about him as a person VS who thinks him being the leader means he can’t make mistakes (even mistakes they all pushed him to make. Looking at Donna being crazy in 108 in particular ). Kory just shows up and gets him and that’s it and likewise he always defends her. The ship is good in writing and in chemistry. I wouldn’t trade what we get for what other couples get at all. Also TBH Feddei was a bigger threat than Dawn because Kory was more interested in what he was going through and was willing to return home to save his life. Even though it was platonic that’s better than what happened between DickDawn in s2- her threatening to burn his house down was the longest conversation they had present day. In the past she was pushing him to be like the man he told her was a violent sociopath while he was grieving. Then her complaining that he was too busy to cuddle with her and should quit trying to stop Slade. ( and how are they superheroes if they are willing to let Slade go free to continue murdering people because they are scared? WTF?) Then just leaving without a word.

If nothing else the fact DK was the only pair who didn’t fight or argue or betray each other in s2 tells me the writers aren’t planning on pulling back. They easily could have had her turn her back on him too. But nope because “it’s Kory”.

#dickkory #the slowest slow burn in the world #but im here for the ride LOL #Anonymous

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arcadianmoonshadowjedi · 4 years

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Personal Opinions on Rapunzel and Cassandra’s Friendship

Ok so this is one post that I’ve been wanting to make for a long time, especially since this is perhaps one of the relationships in the series with the most polarizing views ever (maybe even the number one relationship that is) ranging from people who ship them romantically to people who hate their friendship all together and think that they should’ve never been friends to begin with. So I thought it would be worth a share for me, mostly focusing on S1 and 2. This is not meant to be any hate for either of these girls because they are both among my faves in the series!

ALSO: I will NOT tolerate any hostility or rudeness on this post. If you don’t agree with my opinions, either lets have a friendly, respectful discussion or just scroll by and leave this as it is, thank you!

If you don’t know by now, I personally do not ship them, and never have I since I first started watching the series. I also never interpreted any of their interactions as romantic or saw the two of them as a “potential couple.” I would say this could mostly be due to the fact that I am a hardcore New Dream shipper who strictly believes Rapunzel and Eugene only have romantic feelings for each and I personally don’t think they would have any romantic feelings for anyone else. And I’m also the kind of person who values platonic love so much I also don’t like when they’re shipped (this applies to male-female platonic love as well).

However, I do think that their friendship really made for an interesting story. Now in my opinion, I personally don’t think their friendship was 100% toxic, or devoid of love or happiness, and nor do I think it was entirely a healthy one either, otherwise it wouldn’t have fallen apart by the end of S2.

To start off, I’ve always felt and stand by my opinion that the friendship was very flawed from both sides. The problem with Rapunzel, esp in S1 and less in S2, was that she was a socially stunted teen who was barely out of the tower and barely had time to learn about healthy friendships and boundaries, and this has caused her at several times to unintentionally step on Cass’s personal boundaries, be extremely pushy and at times annoying. Cass on the other hand, as we all know has a super “bitchy”, distrustful personality and has her own insecurities and struggles with self-esteem that negatively affect her own judgments and actions. I feel like a lot of Cass’s trust issues and tough, bitchy exterior stem from her trauma of being abused, neglected, and eventually abandoned by her own mother. I have this headcanon that even though she has no memory of this incident (PTSD can cause a person to forget a traumatizing memory but still continue to suffer as a result of it), she basically has this idea that if her own mother didn’t stay and love her, why would anyone else do so? Cassandra grew bitter to a point where she pushed people away and avoided attachment to avoid the same trauma from happening again. Of course that was until she befriended Rapunzel after Rapunzel persisted in making this friendship happen even after all the pushing away Cass was attempting to do. Based on the canon we got, I would definitely conclude that this was each of the girls’ very first close female friendship in their lives and both had a whole lot they needed to learn in order to grow and build healthier relationships in general. In my opinion, despite the flaws of this friendship, both girls did need it (Rapunzel needed a blunt gal pal who, along with Eugene, could help her discover more of the real world around her and learn more about social interactions, whereas Cassandra needed someone to help her to open up her heart more and know that she is worthy of being loved).

The reason why I don’t agree with a lot of the “Cassandra is malicious and evil to Rapunzel” or “Cassandra’s entire goal and purpose in the whole series (Even in S1 & 2) is belittle and demolish Rapunzel” claims is because I feel like they erase all of Cassandra’s positive traits and great sacrifices she has made for Rapunzel, whether it was their TBEA sneakout adventure which put her at risk of losing her job and home just to make Rapunzel happy or Cass getting her hand charred to get Rapunzel to snap out of the reverse incantation, just to name a few. To also say that Cass was never nice to Rapunzel or never cared for her erases the fact that there were several times she got out of her comfort zone to apologize and make peace with Rapunzel after a conflict (her hugging Raps in Challenge of the Brave after she completely Effed up and in Rapunzel Day One after she opened up about her feeling hurt) or whenever she comforted Rapunzel in her pain (QFAD and BTCW).

As for the claims that “Rapunzel is selfish” or “takes all of her friends for granted” claims, I’m equally opposed to that and they leave an awful taste in my mouth. Rapunzel, as we all know, was trapped in a tower for 18 whole years and has NEVER interacted with anyone besides Gothel and Pascal. Of course Eugene was the first human outside of the tower she interacted with, which throughout the events of the movie and all the trials and sacrifices that they went through, their relationship has so much stability to it. However, not every person Rapunzel interacts will share the understanding she has with Eugene. Rapunzel lacks so much social understanding and skills that there are times she doesn’t know when to have the right type of interactions (remember the bear hug?), let alone experience in royalty. However Rapunzel herself is a major people pleaser and will do whatever it takes to make those around her happy (even if gets really pushy and annoying at times) but she will eventually stop with her pushiness especially when she sees how harmful it can get. Just like Cass, there were several instances where Rapunzel will willingly fight for her, like in BTCW with Adira, even though Cass was technically in the wrong or in Freebird (An episode I’m not a fan of but enjoyed some aspects of it) when both of them fought to save each other or even Rapunzel sacrificing the last egg to turn Cass back.

As for the flaws of the friendship, I would definitely say that alot of it had to do with both lack of proper communication and understanding of boundaries. As we all know Cass doesn’t always have the “fluffiest, kindest” ways of communicating her feelings or her pain and can in turn lash out really badly and come off as condescending and rude. Rapunzel on the other hand, wasn’t really the best at reading social signals (Challenge of the Brave is the best example of super flawed communication and understanding on both sides) or understanding personal boundaries. I personally don’t believe that Rapunzel would “put up someone else’s shit to please them” but she would be more like, if they’re not pleased, Imma force them to be pleased (mostly in a cute, clumsy way, namely Under Raps when she felt the need to constantly “cheer up” Cass or “comfort” Cass in Big Brothers, even when Cass told her she didn’t need it, other examples include Rapunzel’s Enemy with Monty and Goodbye & Goodwill in Vardaros).

However I would say I saw so much improvement throughout S1 and mostly the first half of S2, where we do see them have so many friendly and goofy interactions (In Like Flynn with the pranks, the “game face” in Pascal’s Story, the Island eps, etc).

Then there comes the midseason and this is were I would say the friendship completely fell apart. And I think this is mainly where the argument that Cassandra is controlling over Rapunzel comes into play. Cassandra at the very beginning of the season, as we know the King assigned her with keeping Rapunzel safe, she basically gave up her dream of potentially becoming a guard to accompany Rapunzel. At the same time, Rapunzel is out in the real world outside of Corona and wants to discover more. We see these two have clashes of views and ideals that lead to certain debacles (Freebird is a prime example, tho I personally wish they did something else besides the whole bird plot lol) and then Rapunzel and the Great Tree, especially when Cass expresses that Rapunzel should take caution (which in itself feels "limiting" Rapunzel's desired freedom). I know that there is alot of anger over the argument that Cassandra was belittling Rapunzel by calling her naive (which I agree was a shitty move on her part). But I personally never thought it came from a place of wanting to "bring down Rapunzel and seek control over her" but more of a panic over the fact that they were in a dangerous location and the fact that the gang was nearly killed in it. Adira's points were also valid but Cassandra's insecurity and jealousy of her lead to her reacting hysterically and to make extreme accusations against her. Rapunzel was also stressed from being overwhelmed by the reverse incantation, which also led to her to shut down Cass in an unhealthy, humiliating way.

I feel like this along with the progression of S2 led to the betrayal and I feel like the whole Moonsandra arc should've been more focused on the problems with the friendship and Cass's insecurities rather than the whole Gothel drama. However, I always felt that it was a very complicated friendship that needed lots of mending and better communication on both sides, and I feel like that's where they got to in Plus Est En Vous. Both Rapunzel had grown to better understand social skills, communication, and boundaries a whole lot better than when we first saw her and Cassandra (tho S3 needed much better writing) she had grown to reclaim her self worth and accept that she was worthy of love.

As much as I was upset Cass left Corona, realistically that was what they both needed to give each other space to grow and learn in a healthy way.

#tangled the series #rapunzel's tangled adventure #rapunzel #tangled rapunzel #princess rapunzel #rta cassandra #tts cassandra #tangled cassandra #tts #rta #personal opinion #tangled series character analysis #tangled analysis #character analysis #tas's thought dump

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namesoccer01 · 3 years

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imthepunchlord · 5 years

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I’m confused. I often see you saying you’re not watching an episode. Given up on the show as a whole or just skipping episodes you think you won’t enjoy? (No judgement, just curious. you do you, friendo)

Pretty much both. Many episodes aired don’t sound worth watching, and I don’t care for how the show is being handled. Warning of spoilers below. And a lot of salt.

Marinette has become a punching bag, learning lessons she doesn’t need or is made sad or humiliated for a joke. Like, Troublemaker was supposed to be funny! Yeah, seeing her have an anxiety attack from having her privacy invaded, yeah.... that wasn’t funny.

Adrien always has the moral high ground, even when he shouldn’t. He still has yet to grow, being sad is 73% of his character now and I don’t care anymore when I see he’s sad.

Alya and Nino are now one unit; Nino doesn’t even have a character anymore aside from “I love Alya”.

Kagami’s character got ruined just to be molded into a cringey love rival that honestly would’ve been a lot more acceptable to see if it was Chloe.

Chloe is all over the place and I don’t know what they want to do with her. I’m guessing anti redemption but they also bring up her hero potential and should have more faith in her and I’m just... I don’t think even they know what they want to do with Chloe.

Lila apparently is pure evil and this 14 year old can never be redeemed or changed for the better. And while she’s the worst, Gabriel is sympathetic, and we must pity this incompetent terrorist who supposedly loves his son but he’s also ok with sending an akuma that wants to murder Adrien after him and if Adrien wasn’t Chat he’d be dead.

Then there’s a lot of inconsistencies, like Chloe and Adrien say they’re each other’s best friends but then they (Chloe recently) say that they have no friends so what is the truth? Also Fu said he doesn’t want a lot of miraculouses active and yet more and more are being released.

Also a lack of change. We’re three seasons in. And nothing really changed. Stormy Weather 2 was the best example for this, this ep wanted to show how much changed but it just made it clear that nothing changed. They’re still fighting HM, still in a stalemate. Adrien still likes LB. Marinette still likes Adrien. There are just heroes who pop up but aren’t a constant so they can’t really grow. Chloe is still mean. And just... nothing has changed. Its still the same forumula as s1. Not even the plot has moved forward and we’re 3 seasons in. Technically, Gabriel’s arc should be wrapped up this season, at most, with Mayura able to drag it out. But they didn’t do a good job with Mayura, they’re sticking to the status quo, and its becoming boring.

And then lore, what even is lore anymore? There’s the dumb set up that adults are naturally more powerful which just makes Fu look dumb for choosing kids to fight for him, kids he’s not even training or helping them get a leg up on HM. And LB and Cat are supposed to be the two most powerful but, how? They’re more on the same level as the others, and some even seem more powerful than them. Rabbit can time travel. Technically so can Snake. Max, who is the same age, can do multiple portals instead of being restricted to just one. Also it sounds like Kim can use his power multiple times to.

How are they the most powerful? Hell, LB has two powers, Lucky Charm and Miraculous Ladybug; that means at least Cat should have two as well, we’re 3 seasons in and how have we not seen or heard of that 2nd power? Is it a mix of Plagg being lazy and not trusting Adrien to know? Or is it mass destruction and it just hasn’t been needed?

Also this show was built up to be empowering to girls but, its not. There’s nothing empowering about having our lead’s world and purpose resolve around her love interest. There’s nothing empowering about all her rivals being girls, and they’re all fighting over this bland cream puff. There’s nothing empowering deeming 14 year old girls are the true evil while the actual terrorist we’re supposed to feel for (Chloe and Lila vs Gabriel), and to add to it, Mayura was built up to be worse than Gabriel, which suggest that she’s truly evil. Also, there’s nothing empowering about boys always getting along, and can do some concerning behaviors and get away with it not even a lecture or call out, like Adrien and his persistent pursuits of LB despite rejections, or Nino and how he pressured Mylene when she was starting to get scared and freak out, and he even made use of an akuma attack for his film but just got a pat on the back. or Max, who was rewarded with a place in the tournament despite acting like Marinette cheated even though she won fair and square and wasn’t nice till she was giving up her spot to him.

So very empowering.

That’s also not covering the clear bias Thomas Astruc has to, and how he views the two leads.

With how the show is handling these two, you know what I see? Its Marinette who needs to grow, its Marinette who needs to be worthy of Adrien. Adrien doesn’t need to grow but Marinette does, even though, the issue he brings up, Marinette is one of the most emotionally mature characters in this show. Even more mature than most adults. Not only does she bare brunt of responsibility of hero work for her partner and temp heroes, she’s also willing to give up what she really wants for others happiness. But its her that’s flawed and needs to grow, which also involves humiliating her almost every ep or sending some kind of blow her way.

Someone needs to save this lead from her own show she deserves so much more than this.

Oh, and there’s also the issue of white washing, making black kids have lighter skin as heroes, like Alya and Max.

So yeah, I’m just... I’m pretty fed up with canon. Its not worth watching, I don’t care for their characterizations, much of the powers they do I don’t care for, and every new ep they do sounds uninteresting or bad, with almost some form of humiliation or shame directed at Marinette. It really seems like Silencer will be the only s3 ep I’ll watch. That was actually good and I don’t expect that repeated or brought back.

So, instead of conitnuing to watch canon and get fed up, I’ll be making my own canon, enjoy my ideas and write ML as I wish. I do still enjoy the concept, and its a shame ML didn’t live up to what it could be. This is largely what fuels me to write for it still, knowing I can do better than canon.

#ask Punchie #ml salt #Anonymous

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shiroallura · 5 years

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what are your thoughts on the shiro's disease wasn't a disease reveal? geez the staff was awful to him but the fandom's theories are so wack

i never got involved in that discourse, so i don’t totally know what you’re referring to. while shiro’s disease reveal was… lazy and like everything else in voltron, it could have been handled well if they actually gave a single flying fuck about shiro. but we all know that didn’t happen, so

as far as fandom theories to explain the clusterfuck that became voltron, i don’t put stock in any of them. do i think tim hedrick and the other writers who left went because of the disappointing directions the show was going in? yes. do i think tim hedrick had shallura leanings? yes. do i think they would’ve been endgame if the show had persisted with his vision? maybe. but it’s honestly the least of what i wanted from voltron, which was a good found family theme and shiro as bp. i also saw issues forming in the show’s writing as early as 2x01, so the show took a dive for the worst post-s1 onwards, s2 had a good leg to stand on in some parts, but by s3 that had given out and it was just downhill from there, as the things i would’ve been willing to overlook if s7 hadn’t completely broken the narrative were suddenly glaring and what led to the show’s complete and utter descent into a fiery trashcan of hell

and to think, last year i thought “star wars: the last jedi” would be the most disappointing thing i’d ever watch

#as always #shiro deserved better #thanks for asking #vld critical #anonymous

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sol1056 · 6 years

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anons discuss Keith

...do you think LM and JDS originally wanted Keith to be leader of Voltron instead of Shiro? They say that they didn't want to follow the original story of having Keith as leader but then they speak of how they wanted Shiro dead so Keith could lead. Now Keith is the black paladin. It seems they've shafted Shiro’s arc, from how they are writing the story.

I’ve mentioned this in other posts, but my perspective has changed from blaming nostalgia to blaming pure spite. The EPs sure sound in some interviews like they must’ve been teeth-bared and hackles-up determined to put Keith in Black’s seat, permanently. If nothing else to just show up the execs, the dissenting fans, and hell, even some of their coworkers at DW.

For a deconstruction of what might’ve been behind all the truncated arcs -- whether Shiro’s, Allura’s, or Keith’s -- check out this addition to my post on mentors. (I can’t tag, stupid tumblr bug.)

More asks behind the cut: Keith S1/S2 vs Keith S7, Keith as MC, comfort zones vs panic zones, and Keith vs Sendak as foils.

Keith's mindscape in S2: [one of his biggest fears is hearing] ‘you're selfish, you pick yourself over us’. His biggest one, being abandoned and rejected. S7 Keith: kicked Shiro unceremoniously aside to take his place, replaced him with Lance as right hand. Abandonment & rejection issues? trust issues? anger?? S1-2 Keith would pummel S7 Keith.

I really don’t know how anyone can look at Keith from S1-S6, and his consistent (and persistent) belief in Shiro as the true Black Paladin --- and then look at S7 Keith, utterly silent on the entire topic --- and see the same character. I sure as hell can’t. It’s not that Keith couldn’t be who he is in S7. He just can’t be that and be the person we saw in S1-S6.

Well, he could be, but that kind of a dramatic shift would be a significant arc, possibly taking up most of a season, and could even be a full story in its own right. Barring that much focus, if Keith was meant to end up as he is in S7, he was written from a completely wrong starting place.

Hi! I was wondering what you think of the argument (or defense for some writing) that I've seen go around about Keith being the main character. I just don't personally see him as it because he wasn't that big of a focus in season one and then he was pretty much absent from the story for three whole seasons.

I know I posted on this back after S4, I think, but the gist of it is this: our introduction to Keith is a fanfic intro, but the majority of the audience was thinking original/pro fiction. It’s a complete disconnect.

See, in fanfic, it’s a common maneuver to introduce last the one character who doesn’t really require an introduction. In fact, it’s a kind of mild tension we use in fanfic (especially in AUs); we already know who the protagonist is, after all, so we get a bit of perspective on the secondary characters, maybe a few OCs, and then... in rolls the protagonist and the story kicks off.

In original/pro fiction, the protagonist --- or, at minimum, the core POV character --- is always introduced first. (Barring prologues where we get context, that is.) You do not wait the equivalent of two chapters to finally get around to showing the person the story is actually about.

That led some viewers to see Shiro as MC, while others saw the prologue as context, and thus Lance (introduced first in the present-day story) as MC. The EPs definitely gave Keith an MC-level intro, and then dropped the ball, as if that should suffice. Meanwhile, the viewers who clung stubbornly to mecha conventions got more and more frustrated as Keith kept to the background until almost the end of S1. But again, in original mecha-genre stories, you still don’t wait 12+ episodes for that character to step forward into the spotlight.

So, it depends on the lens you’re using: fanfic, ofic, or genre. The EPs seem to have always assumed Keith was their MC, which says to me that even if they weren’t entirely nostalgia-driven (or claimed they weren’t), it still had a huge influence on them. Enough that they thought they didn’t need to follow story convention, but could mix it up because hey, we all ‘know’ who the protagonist is, so they could skip the work of making him be protagonist-like.

That works when you know it’s fanfiction. It doesn’t work anywhere else. Especially seeing how DW advertised VLD as a reboot: iow, a clean-slate story where anything might happen --- including the protagonist be someone else. By the time the EPs got around to trying to shove Keith forward, the audience had already locked onto who they thought the story had signaled would be MC.

As for taking that alleged protagonist and putting him on a bus for almost 13 episodes? No. I got nothing for that. You just don’t do that. There’s no excuse for that other than bad writing, plain and simple.

I stumbled across someone saying that BP Keith works because he was put out of his comfort zone and that's good for character development. And it's been kind of sticking with me because I just keep remembering s3 and how it wasn't fun to see him piloting black because he was so miserable doing it. I'm wondering your thoughts in regards to putting a character out of their comfort zone for development: is it possible to go too far and I guess in general about the concept itself.

Shortly after you sent this ask, I came across a post that talks about the psychology of a comfort zone vs learning zone vs panic zone. Part of the problem with S3 is that the EPs/writers didn’t realize that combining two things undermined both. Keith is effectively grieving (and pretty deeply) in those opening episodes, and he’s being forced into a role that he’s always associated with Shiro. If he’d embraced flying Black while grieving Shiro, that would’ve made him seem callous, but we did need to see some kind of grieving, as close as he and Shiro had clearly been (”if not for you, my life would’ve been a lot different” isn’t something you say to a casual friend).

In other words, Keith’s comfort zone to the end of S2 was flying Red, and supporting Shiro-in-Black. Had he been able to focus on grieving, that’d be a learning zone: this time, getting over the loss in a healthier manner, with support, rather than running away. With the worst edges of the grief out of the way (iow, that grief becoming part of his comfort zone), he could’ve then moved into a new learning zone, of accepting his role flying Black.

I think the writers did understand, instinctively, that tackling both learning phases at once would send any decent human straight into the panic zone. It’s too much, too soon. I’d bet the EPs rolled with that approach, too, since there’s no conflict quite so charged as someone on the verge of breaking apart. The problem was that having put Keith into a completely understandable panic zone, they had no idea how to walk him back out of it. With Kuron’s appearance, Keith running away became the easiest resolution for a bunch of things, including Keith’s development.

And honestly? All they needed to do was get rid of a single filler episode in S2, removing either the mermaid or olkari episodes, or finding a way to blend them. Make room for an episode after the finale, one in which the entire team struggles with their grief, processes it, reaches out to their allies, and the episode concludes with Keith --- as the one whose learning stage is greatest --- coming to the team and announcing it’s time to find a new Black Paladin.

That would put us on a trajectory for S3 being Keith’s other learning phase, of handling his new role, of opening up to the team, of all the development that wouldn’t have made sense given the story dropped it all on his head for the sake of panic zone conflict.

If VLD had bothered to flesh out Keith as Sendak’s foil it would've been great. It’s a missed opportunity. As it stands, only Shiro has any connection with Sendak ... Shiro [was] singled out by Sendak, not Keith. Beating someone [means] nothing without deep personal stakes.

Yep, absolutely. And again, not a difficult thing to fix. If the point of Crystal Venom was just to show how the corrupted crystal affected everyone, then have Shiro in the practice hall, getting flashbacks as the droid attacks him. Let Keith stand guard over Sendak, and give us an exchange where Sendak recognizes Keith as the Red Paladin. Something about Red being Sendak’s before it was Keith’s (echoing the dispute over Black). If Sendak had threatened Shiro, Keith probably would’ve lost it and ejected him, story continues.

Oh, and reduce the strange familiarity in Sendak’s reaction to Shiro, when they first meet. Keep it as neutral as possible, so the audience isn’t left assuming these two know each other, somehow.

If Sendak represents being a ‘good’ right-hand man, and makes Keith question his own ability to support Shiro (or whether he’s going to lose Shiro again to Zarkon), then we’d have emotional weight tying the two right-hand characters together. And yeah, then it’d be victory that Keith cuts Sendak down, in the end: because it’d be Keith asserting not only that he deserves to be Shiro’s right arm, but also that Keith has chosen a better leader, one worthy of following, where Sendak did not, etc.

Much like the issue with comfort zones vs panic zones, the EPs/writers went for what would be suitably dramatic, but they didn’t seem to give much thought to how this would impact our impression of the story. In both cases, the story’s focus created (and reinforced) an association that didn’t mesh with where VLD apparently wanted to end up.

#vld #voltron #analysis #it's bad writing karen #come for the sugar stay for the salt #sol thinks about stuff

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theladyragnell · 5 years

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Hello my love. I have been following you all around (on account of several different fandoms, actually), and today I have finally finished watching daredevil! The thing is, I ship all your ships. THAT BEING SAID, matt/karen is fucking adorable. Do you ship them as well as your other ships in that fandom? Would you ever consider writing something about them? Even if it's just meta on why you don't like them (if you don't?) You are an amazing writer, and I need more them in my life

Hello, anon! This post comes with the caveat that I am still only halfway through s3, drawing it way out since it’s canceled and I won’t get anymore, so maybe at the end of s3 there are some moments that would change this answer a whole lot. So this is all from the perspective of the first two and a half seasons!

So, first, aside from all other considerations, I don’t tend to write fic or engage very much with canon ships? If I like it in the canon, I’m satisfied with it and don’t feel the need to write or go seeking out fic about it, with a few exceptions. It’s like Merlin fandom--I actually really liked much of Arthur/Gwen in the show, when it wasn’t being over-the-top and ridiculous (ahh, that s3 episode with the picnic and Dragoon the Great), but I only ever wrote one very short fic for them and didn’t really read anything for them.

That being said, Matt/Karen is not really my deal, at least the way I’ve seen it so far.

Part of it is me--to be frank, Karen turned me way, way off in s1, and it’s been hard going for me with her on and off since. (Look, you do not manipulate a man whose wife is very ill by using his wife’s illness to get him to go with you somewhere for a reason that’s actually unrelated. Aside from all issues of her persistence getting Ben killed, that one choice she made made me VERY unhappy.) I do think she’s a fascinating character! The way everyone perceives her vs. who she actually is, grimly persistent, passionate, reckless, ready to take on any fight, even if it’s SO beyond her paygrade. Watching perceptions of her unravel in s3 is perhaps the most interested I’ve been in her yet, because it’s interesting writing for HER, not just making her into The Love Interest.

Which brings me to the next point: continually, the show (and I am counting the Defenders in here too) has characters who Karen trusts or would be inclined to trust, in a position of wisdom and experience, at least as she perceives them, basically tell her to let Matt treat her like shit. Frank in s2, Trish in the Defenders, Sister Maggie in s3 ... all of them say “don’t give up, if he’s pushing you away,” or they say “sometimes love is like that, with one person treating the other this way.” And Karen may grumble, but she never stands up and says “No, that’s bullshit, I’m allowed to be mad and make him grovel” because the writers won’t manipulate HIS behavior to make him grovel, but they’ll manipulate hers to make her forgive.

(Yes, I know the whole thing is a lot more complicated than this, but I think at least a version of my point there stands: Matt is immutable; Karen is the one who has to modify her expectations, because she’s never allowed to just walk away.)

(And a side note: Foggy also keeps forgiving Matt, BUT part of the reason the ship works for me is that outside parties are not talking him into it. Matt does some dipshit thing, Foggy gets mad, they talk about it, and Foggy comes back. No third party is telling him this is just how some people are, that Matt Needs Him. Foggy is deciding that for himself. He says it himself in s3, that the way Matt is acting on him, but the way he chooses to respond when Matt needs help is his own choice, and he feels it’s morally better to forgive. HE chooses. Though of course that scene also functions as Someone Telling Karen How To Feel.)

There are ways this ship could work for me! If they acknowledge that they are both reckless people who won’t quit in a fight even when they’re losing, who let their tempers get them mired deep in situations beyond them, who will keep fighting for what they think is right till the end, even if the end would get them killed? That I could get behind. There are sometimes glimmers, but not enough. Karen does the kinds of things that Matt would do if he didn’t have superpowers, and that makes her a good partner for Daredevil as well as for Matt (as long as poor Foggy sticks around to rein them in on occasion, good lord), but as the ship is presented, what I see is Karen getting mad at Matt (usually justifiably, if sometimes bafflingly given in s2 she was happily forgiving Frank for greater crimes) and being pushed to forgive him, and Matt being so busy brooding that romance is barely even on his radar and thus he puts no effort into it.

tl;dr Matt/Karen, as presented in the show, doesn’t work for me, partly because I am not all that fond of Karen and partly because, fond of her or not, I can see that the ship as presented sins against her character fairly frequently.

#shut up nell #nelson and murdock: feelings at law #anonymous #answered asks

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inappropriatefangirlneeds · 5 years

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Gotham s5ep4 “Ruin” Personal Review

“There goes the element of surprise..” Warning spoilers below (ahaha not this week, boy am I late, not that anyone would have missed this though, also little meta content this week)

What I loved about the episode is that it´s the “apocalypse” and then it comes down to a crime scene investigation! I would take much more of that! Much more! Just less of a bloodthirsty MOB. Like would they really want Zsasz hanged? The evidence was pretty clear, Jim Gordon really got no reason to lie to them, actually it would greatly benefit him if he did. Do they really not want to see the real culprit punished? I´m not a fan of lynch/mob law in general but does it make sense for the mob to want the wrong guy hanged, that way the police probably will think / claim everything is settled and call it a day, which means the real culprit is free to do that again, but then again I wonder how many people know about Zsasz and him having been a hitman, did some of them have had relatives that got into Carmine / Sal Maroni crossfire, was this partly a he´s a guilty filthy criminal *anyway* thing? * “You don't need to smuggle in explosives when you can detonate 250 gallons of highly pressurized heating oil that's coursing through all the floors.” Ah damn, they really had Edward Nygma do it, I kind of didn´t want them to follow that route. Also why put that running guy with bomb in there then, huh .. damn exploding herrings. HOPE goes on and off this week: “But whoever destroyed that building can't destroy the hope we've built. Not unless we let them.” “I told the people it was safe. I made them into a target.” “Jim, you gave 'em” “Don't tell me I gave 'em hope. They're dead.” * It´s GOOD vs. EVIL “This city will never be what you want it to be, Jim. It's always gonna belong to the bad guys, like me.” “People like you are always trying to own this city. But you never will.” * It´s GOOD ft. EVIL Oswald Cobblepot poses as if he was the synthesis of both those opposites: A bad guy that cares. “I lost people, too, Jim. People you lured with promises of safety and security, only to have them incinerated.” Oswald arms the GCPD talking about working together just to take over and get his own trials and justice going. He´s claiming to provide what Jim can´t. While both Barbara Kean & Oswald Cobblepot claimed their help came no strings attached Oswald´s help does not include staying aside and letting them do their work. Although to be fair he said “Save for the one that we will cinch around the neck of the Haven bomber.” What is it with people that it always needs a couple hundred dead people that they can focus on nice things. Anyway everyone is appropriately appalled with this atrocity. They also gave all the villains some selfish reasons. OSWALD COBBLEPOT wants people and their cheers. EDWARD NYGMA wants the file of the inmate. “I've been putting out feelers.” BARBARA KEAN is worried Sirens might be next, making her probably the least “selfish” one because she seems to care about the people that she protects and might not demand the same level of praise that Oswald does. (I know probably other things but unless canon proves me wrong I headcanon slightly differently) She feels hurt but understands Jim would suspect, even for a moment that she could be responsible for the destruction Haven. They slowly get her back on suitable for Jim Gordon to kiss track, which phu idk. I liked her and their relationship in S1, but there´s just so much happened in between. And plenty in Barbara´s characterization I didn´t like so it´s nice to see her on a more reasonable track now but how about they just gave her an awesome relationship with Tabitha ........ Characterization questions aside I really loved that she did not and could not kill Oswald in the light of the explosion! That was a touching moment! Also her outfit is nice, although they toned down the make up. And Jim gripping her arm during the kiss almost gives old timey movie vibes. I´m sure I don´t need to write on Babs / Oswald paralells, I assume I just can reblog better words on it from someone .. * Also something tells me if JIM GORDON had gotten that shoot out with VICTOR ZSASZ, that kiss would not have happened …… “Inmate number 1215 knows! Knows what???!!??!” Ha, distressed, puzzled, annoyed EDWARD NYGMA is a joy to watch. I don’t really have to say more on that. Edward snatching the blanket from the woman when walking into the GCPD makes me wonder, what would he have done if that woman hadn´t been there? Just walked in? Did he have a stupid disguise and was like, oh no wait that´s better. He and LUCIUS FOX were a delight. Edward trying to snatch the file from him and run was wonderful! Him preening in pride when his expertise is wanted was delightful! Lucius claiming, he´ll deny having said the praise he gave Edward in the end, precious! Lucius playing him like a fiddle, and moving him with barely more than his fingertips, damn! Just that the whole thing was shot like when Ed pursued Kristen Kringle! Their dynamic is just wonderful: “Impressive. Calculated the angle of incident to follow the trajectory through the window, into the fuel oil tanks.” “Yep. That, and the RPG case is right over there.” * One thing that stressed me was Ed sending the Files flying around him on the rooftop. Like at that moment he didn´t yet know that the woman he saw in the window was connect to the note he put down on his hands. Even when the inmate was dead there could have been some hints in the file or who knows in hid grave. Like, no Edward! No! Go run and pick them up. * Someone needs to do a Parallel Meta for 5x04 & 4x12 when Ed found out he hired the hit on Leslie Thompkins. * “I did not make that building go boom, Jim.” Yeah, that´s a VICTOR ZSASZ line. Love him. * ““Hey, do you guys have any canned peaches? Man, I'd trade an arm and a leg for that right now. Not mine, somebody else's.” Food and cut off limbs, that´s another one. Love him. * And that one: “Do the math. If I blew up a building full of people, I would have covered every inch of my body in sweet, sweet scars. You guys want to do a strip search?” “I'd let Alvarez do it. He's handsome” * Him shooting Oswald´s head on the major poster after he said something was a great detail! * Him drinking while waiting for the bullet hail to stop as well. * I´m gonna make a post about the Gunman magazine that fell on the floor, after Jim tackled him so majestically ... * Zsasz usurping the applause afterwards, and later was adorable. * “Is this about Sofia Falcone? Because you should really move past that. It's not healthy.” DOES HE KNOW SHE KILLED CARMINE, DOES HE OR DOES HE NOT ???? They had him express sympathy towards Carmine in Season 1, they showed that he cared when Carmine got killed. I get that he might abandon issues like that in the current environment but they can´t open up such a plotline and then just drop it. Does he know that Oswald didn´t kill Carmine? Like honestly .. I know it´s the Jim Gordon show but I would have loved it if Victor Zsasz just had saved himself!! I would have loved it even more if along the way they somehow figured out the whole misconception, Zsasz would recognize that Sofia and not Oswald is to blame and maybe even apologize. * But hey Oswald´s “Well said” about the mumbled last words was mean but awesome. * Soooo who went in the trashy local torture museum to get the guillotine? * How does Zsasz work? There where zero people shown around him. What is it like to live on Zsasz turf? * Zsasz mumbling must have been bewildered that they aren´t honouring the tradition of the last meal before an execution, like he got his order ready, that was the last silver lining, if he´s really going to face his end at the hands of penguin in those halls at least he´s going to get his teeth into something juicy and tasty before it happens .. SELINA KYLE, (Bruce Wayne), JEREMIAH VALESKA, ECCO * Sykes and the Soothsayers digging a tunnel for Jeremiah Valeska. Is that poetic justice? Also is this a new tunnel, when the Soothsayers had the children dig it they went out of their way to state that their cruelty is even more infuriating because the whole endeavour is very likely futile. Like they made it damn clear that the TUNNEL is not going to go anywhere. Also would Jeremiah, who made the bridges go boom want a tunnel that remedies that issue partly? Only for himself? His cult? Is he doing something else altogether? Is it about what he can get into the city through it? Is he better at static issues and remedied the tunnel digging plan? Was he involved before? * “Yes you certainly have set a very high bar - for devotion.” Fucker gave me an earworm, Ordo Rosarius Equilibrio & Spiritual Front - A Song 4 Hate and Devotion (live) I mean quite a fitting mood considering all the other portrayals of the Harley and Mr. Jay relationship, but maybe they give ECCO and JEREMIAH VALESKA a different path. Aside from that the little dance was slightly nice. * “Bruce Wayne and his sidekick Curls Or is he the sidekick?” Yes! Ecco got the right spirit. I wonder if Ecco sees herself as sidekick? “You see, a river cuts through rock not because of its power, but because of its persistence.So what do we do when we feel like giving up?” “Dig a little deeper.” “And what do we do when we can't possibly go on any longer?” “Dig a little deeper.” “And what do we ..” “Deep enough?” I´m afraid it was not deep enough, I´m afraid it was quite shallow because the show is not as clever as Ecco, I bet that he isn´t dead, if he was it if could have actually been just about her. Honestly, I would love that. All the BatJokes built up and then it´s about Selina. And she has plenty right for it to be about her, Jeremiah almost killed her. What else does it need. * SELINA KYLE keeping in the shadows investigating, disguising herself as one of the people there, then getting close to Jeremiah dressed as Ecco: She´s good! She´s awesome! * That GCPD woman that was doing PAPERWORK when Ed sneaked into the building. Do they do regular paperwork? Cause damn, considering the governmental neglect if Jim got them to bother to do the regular paperwork he must have given one hell of a speech. Or is it paperwork related to organize a place like Haven? How do they do things? * Oswald destroying all strategy with a megaphone: “There goes the element of surprise.” * “Elevated position, back to the sun.” * “Never ever ask me to do anything like that again. Pull yourself together.” Harvey does not approve of Wild West Jim * “ I know the wheels of justice turn slowly, so I'm here to provide - a modicum of grease.” / “I did not expect you to go soft, Jim. Actually, I did.” / “By the power vested in me by well, me, I sentence you, Victor Zsasz, to die.” * “One of the areas in which I excel is the loosening of tongues.” “No. He's mine” Oh damn I thought Jim said “it´s mine” as in he´s better with interrogations. Well there goes my whole comparison with the Edward Nygma & Lucius Fox expertise quip: “So, the second smartest man in Gotham needs my help.” “Explosives are not my expertise.” “Didn't realize you had one.” *“Jim Gordon cares more about protecting a murderer than he does about protecting you!” Okay look who is projecting ....

#gotham #gotham meta #gotham s5ep4 Ruin #Victor Zsasz #ecco #Selina Kyle #mine Gotham full episode reviews

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lightsandlostbells · 6 years

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Skam season 3, episode 3 reaction

Thank you to everyone who has been reading and commenting so far! I love hearing people’s thoughts on S3 and reading anecdotes about other viewing experiences. This episode has some moments with a lot of room for varying interpretations; I would love to hear other POVs if you got a different reading out of a scene. It’s also one of the episodes where we have the original scripts, so we can compare the first draft with the finished product.

Episode 3 feels like an impending train wreck up until the very end, where Robyn intervenes to keep things on track.

SEASON 3, EPISODE 3 - “Now you’re bonding too much”

Clip 1 - Damage control, part 1

Isak starts off literally on the sidelines as he deals with the fallout of his ill-conceived lies as Emma writes a long text saying it’s fine if he’s not interested but he doesn’t have to give her false hope. Well, he is giving her some false hope, but we’ve also see him express reluctance over hanging out with her and partying with her. I can’t help but feel a little bit bad for him because even if he did make this mess himself, he also didn’t want to do the party with Emma in the first place. He’s created his own problems but they’re a result of his struggles with internalized homophobia and his need to maintain a typical heterosexual dudebro exterior. He really needs to learn to stop waffling and giving in to what people expect or want from him and start speaking up for himself, but of course he can’t quite do that until he starts being honest with himself and others.

Emma demonstrates her maturity by writing a reasonable-ish text message at 21:35, then complaining that he doesn’t answer at 22:01, then apologizing and asking him to reply at 22:18, then calling him an asshole at 22:30. This is one of my greatest personal pet peeves so I’m not exactly feeling sympathy for her at not getting a text reply within an hour. Some of us take naps or go to the movies or do stuff that requires us to be away from our phones for an hour.

I’ve been wondering why Julie chose to write Emma the way she did, because if you think about it, Isak could have had a female “love interest” who was really cool and smart and seemingly perfect for him, if not for the fact that he’s gay and can’t make himself be interested in her. If I had to guess, I’d guess Emma is characterized like this because someone more mature or level-headed might be able to pick up on the massive hints that he isn’t into her, or in any case might not be so doggedly persistent in getting Isak’s attention. Instead, she’s beautiful and sweet enough, if ignorant in certain aspects, but she’s not someone Isak can just shake off by being distant. He has to deal with the consequences of flirting with her when he doesn’t mean it, because she won’t just go away if he ignores her.

Additionally, I guess having a “love interest” like her only make it more obvious how right Even is for Isak, not just in the sense of Even being a boy but being someone with whom he forms a natural connection. Isak with Emma acts fake, Isak with Even acts real.

I’m not trying to hate on Emma, by the way; I know there’s an ugly side of fandom that can OTT bash her or Sonja not for their actual flaws but for existing. With Emma it’s complicated because she does do some shitty stuff later on that is legitimately worthy of criticism. Ultimately I think she doesn’t come off as well as someone like Sonja, or even Ingrid or Iben in S1, who are similarly minor characters causing problems for our POV character, but at this point in the story I still had plenty of sympathy for her. Isak is being unfair to her.

Mahdi calls Isak a traitor as he sits down and goes in on him for cancelling the party. It’s not really a surprise that Isak ended up snapping at him later in the season - obviously I love the boy squad and things worked out well and they became an adorable friendship crew, but these two clashed a lot in the first part of S3. To be fair to Mahdi, Isak has in the space of two episodes lost the group’s weed and randomly cancelled a pre-party by lying to everyone involved. Not good bro behavior.

More to add to my theory that they’re relatively new friends and Mahdi is in this group via Jonas: he has no idea about Isak’s mom situation. I can’t remember if Magnus knows - I don’t remember him talking about it although “Magnus” has known Isak for a while if you count David’s early appearances. But even if you assume Isak is holding back on the specific details, Mahdi doesn’t seem to know that there’s anything unusual about what’s going on with his mom.

Isak is lying here again by mentioning his mom but it’s at least a convincing lie for once. He knows that Jonas will realize the seriousness of what he’s implying, and he also probably won’t press him too hard about the situation. It’s a little shitty that he uses the very serious issue of his mom’s illness - something that Jonas has helped Isak deal with firsthand - as a cover story for the real reason he bailed on Friday. But Isak’s mom is also a constant source of stress and worry for him so there is some truth in it.

Nice acting from Marlon when Jonas’ face changes as soon as Isak mentions his mom. Jonas being so protective and concerned for Isak = 💛💛💛

Mahdi of course doesn’t get it, because moms being stressed is just a thing moms do, they get upset because the kids made a mess or the car broke down or the dog dug a hole in the couch. “Stress” implies something far more mundane than the real situation with Isak’s mom.

Jonas asks simply how Isak’s mother is doing, nothing more, and Mahdi then manages to pick up from Isak’s expression and a serious shared look with Jonas that more is happening with Isak than he realizes. It’s noted in the script that he realizes here. So he drops the argument and tells Isak to just arrange a new pre-party. Case closed, as Jonas and Mahdi say!

Of course, you can tell from Isak’s expression that the case is not closed. First of all, he’s still lying to his friends. Second, how is he going to get a new pre-drink arranged with those girls when Emma is pissed off at him? Third, arranging a new pre-drink will not solve Isak’s rather large problem of not wanting to drink with Emma because he is not interested in her in the slightest.

There’s an IG post from Isak of the boys playing video games the next day, so things were chill again pretty quick.

Clip 2 - The Gay Test

This clip takes place on Mandag, 3:03, for anyone who wants to keep track of the repeating numbers.

Man, this fucking scene. This is bleak.

We start with Isak staring at the ceiling, just staring. You can imagine the million things that are on his mind. He reaches over for his phone and we get one of those biblical texts from his mom. Not as apocalyptic as usual, but still one more thing to cause him “stress” to borrow a euphemism. All these texts are both reminders that not only his mom is struggling with mental illness, she might not accept him if she knew certain facts about him. Facts which are heavily on his mind as of late.

Also, I guess Isak just sleeps in his underwear since we see it happen a few times, but the fact that he’s not dressed works for this being a very stripped down sort of scene, where Isak gets down to the heart of the matter on his laptop. Confronting ideas about his own sexuality directly even if he’s just typing them into a search engine.

This whole clip is the definition of show, don’t tell, and Tarjei does such excellent acting here, especially considering that he’s using a pretty limited range of facial expressions and body language. Which makes sense, to be clear - he’s alone in his room at 3:03, he doesn’t need to be projecting his feelings to other characters or overreacting. But despite the fact that he’s not asked to go through a huge range here, man does this kid get across everything you need to know about what’s running through Isak’s mind. In fact the stillness works in his favor here, emphasizing his dead-inside, hopeless stare.

His acting carries this scene when there’s no voice-over or exposition to walk us through what’s happening. For instance, when Isak looks at Emma’s picture on Facebook, there’s no explanation, but we understand. He’s trying to see if he feels anything toward it, any attraction at all. He’s probably trying to make himself feel some attraction.

We don’t actually see the search that led to him finding the gay test, but you can probably assume it was something like how to know if you’re gay or am I gay or something like that. But it might have been interesting to see exactly how he phrased it, to note the level of detachment or certainty in the phrasing.

This fucking test. A real test, by the way! The scripts have the links for the websites Isak visits in this clip, so Julie did her research. This scene was written around the existence of this crap. Did she get advised by RL gay people about the “empty closets” website while talking to members of the LGBT community for this season? Did she just Google “am I gay” and “how to get turned on by girls if you are gay” in order to find some appropriate links?

I was reluctant to give that website hits, but I did want to see exactly what the rest of the questions were, so I went through the test.

The quiz is 20 questions and they’re all about personal grooming and style habits, gay-friendly pop culture, and avoidance of emotions. Nowhere in this quiz to determine whether someone is gay does it ask questions like “Are you attracted to men?” “Do you want to have sex with men?” “Do you fall in love with men?” Anything that has to with the actual definition of being a gay man. It is all about the stereotypes of having a “gay” personality.

Not only is this quiz is very stupid (obviously), but it also covers a very narrow perspective of what it means to be gay. A lot of the questions assume a middle- or upper-middle-class lifestyle and a selective pool of interests. It’s also an American-centric quiz and one that seems rather dated. There’s one question about who won season 1 of Project Runway - a season that aired in 2004, when Isak was five years old. How can this possibly be an accurate judge of Isak’s sexuality? But for a vulnerable teenager, it doesn’t matter that the test is ludicrous. It’s just reinforcing his worst fears of what a gay man has to be, muddling his perception of who he is. Because on the one hand, if this is what a gay man is, then Isak can’t be gay. He’s not one of those gay guys. But on the other hand, he still feels like he has to distance himself from these ideas of what gay is so he’s not seen that way. It’s all very messy.

This part is specifically mentioned in the script: Isak hovers over the time travel question, seeming like he’s going to choose Moulin Rouge but picking Woodstock, the less “gay’ seeming option. Trying not to get too high of a score on the quiz. It’s very depressing that he needs to monitor himself like this - I mean, this is a dumbass online quiz and he’s taking it alone at night! Who cares? Sometimes I take Buzzfeed quizzes like “Design a taco and we’ll tell you what tropical fish you are” but does it tell me anything about myself if it says I’m a suckermouth catfish? No. Really he just doesn’t want this insignificant test to confirm something he already fears about himself.

Also we never see him watch any Baz Luhrmann films other than Romeo + Juliet, but I wonder if he watched Moulin Rouge and that sparked his interest in almost picking that option. Baz Luhrmann’s filmography isn’t that large; he’s directed the Red Curtain Trilogy (Strictly Ballroom, R+J, and Moulin Rouge), Australia, and The Great Gatsby, plus the pilot of The Get Down. You could watch all of his movies in a weekend. I know Isak is pretty upset and about to get focused on being “straight” but he had time to research and listen to Nas’ discography sometime this week, so it’s not unreasonable he also checked out other Baz films.

(Only three of those five films are tragedies, by the way! If Isak had stumbled upon Strictly Ballroom, perhaps this season would have turned out differently.)

If he watched Moulin Rouge, by that way, that might add some extra hesitation over the question. A reminder of Even, a reminder of these feelings that are causing him so much pain.

He’s 20% gay, which by this test’s standards is not very gay, but probably too gay for his liking.

how to get turned on by girls if you are gay - I think it’s the “if you are gay” bit that makes this particularly depressing, because Isak knows what he is. He might be taking The Gay Test but really he knows he is gay. This isn’t really about him struggling with feelings for a guy for the first time and figuring out what that means about himself. This season isn’t about Isak realizing that he is gay. He’s known for a while; he’s likely known since he had a crush on Jonas, at least. It’s just that this time with Even, these feelings are coming to the forefront; this time, he almost found himself in a situation where a guy liked him back, and that leaves him with a different range of options than crushing on a straight dude where it’s “safe” in the sense that it’ll never happen. If a guy likes him back, it’s more dangerous, because something can happen. This Google search is about Isak trying to find out how to force a heterosexual side from himself despite knowing it’s fake.

In the script he does a search for “how to get turned on by girls if you are 22% gay” which I’m guessing they changed either to get the right search results on screen or because that phrasing is kind of humorous despite the topic, and it��s at odds with the serious tone of Isak’s struggle here.

Actually, I take it back. You know what is the most depressing about this part? That these are all real forums and posts from closeted gay people. Not fake websites made up for the show, as you would see in most television series. Real comments from real gay guys, talking about how to force themselves to get aroused by women.

“I get drunk and try to focus on what is attractive about the girl. Works for me.” A real person wrote that.

I wasn’t watching this in real time yet, and I actually saw the pre-drink clip before I saw this one so I wasn’t worried about the pre-drink ending in Isak sleeping with a girl, but I can imagine a sense of foreboding from this clip? Particularly with the focus on the advice about sleeping with a girl. I can definitely imagine that it’d seem like Isak was about to make himself have sex with Emma (or another girl). I am so, so glad that Julie didn’t put Isak through that. It’s depressing enough to see him just think about it.

Clip 3 - Damage control, part 2

Ahhh, it’s the first appearance of Isak’s locker! Things are spilling out of it, he has a hard time cramming his belongings inside and keeping it shut.

So to translate the metaphor of Isak’s locker of self-acceptance: Isak knows he is gay, he has spent the past week indulging in his attraction to Even, and now he’s going to force all those feelings back inside no matter what it takes.

Also, in the script, the locker is able to be closed once Isak says he won’t host the party, so he’s closing it by turning down this opportunity to potentially hang with Even - the whole reason he got roped into hosting in the first place by asking if there would be more kosegruppa meetings.

Lmao, Isak seems incredibly stressed out by his locker, like Tarjei is breathing heavily and he has these wild eyes at the end when he turns back to Vilde. Keeping his locker shut sure must take a toll on him.

Isak blames other people for not being able to host the party instead of owning up to the real reason, which of course he would never admit out loud. He wanted to know if there would be more kosegruppa meetings, in case Even would come, but now Even is the last thing he wants to think about. With this party, Even might not only show up, but could bring his beautiful girlfriend along.

Oh, Isak. Before you told this lie, you should have counted on Eskild having contacts with Noora’s social circle. Eskild, not want to host a party? Please.

He then pins it on Linn which is at least a more believable lie. Linn is the one who asks her roommates to keep it down and wants to stay home and chill. But Vilde makes the point that Linn is depressed and doesn’t want to do anything, and it’s their job to make sure she does stuff. Which is actually very astute of Vilde. Speaking as someone who has dealt with depression, people can definitely go overboard in trying to help. Like everything, there’s a balance: you should respect the wishes of someone with depression and not think you know better than they do about how to handle their mental illness. But it’s also good to have people who want to check in on you and pull you out of your shell. Not to mention, you know, this is additional foreshadowing for the importance of mental health issues this season.

Also let’s note that Vilde knows this probably because of her mom’s own issues, that she realizes she needs to give her mom a push sometimes. Sure, she really wants Isak to host that party. But she’s also speaking from experience. (The execution of Magnus/Vilde is annoying but in the bare bones of them, they’re both naive/silly characters who are harder to take seriously on a surface level but have a lot of hidden wisdom and maturity about certain issues.)

But Vilde also thought Even was a psychopath so she’s not perfect about mental illness, either.

There’s a gifset of Vilde talking during this scene juxtaposed with Isak staring at her blankly and it’s one of my favorite gifsets ever.

I will never stop laughing about how Isak just gives in to whatever Vilde asks of him.

Vilde texts him afterwards about the party and he gives one-word answers that are about as enthusiastic as his texts to Emma.

It’s freaky how much Isak is able to switch on his cool straight guy persona. Just a minute ago he was all frazzled by a battle with his locker and then losing a battle about hosting the party to Vilde, and now he’s going to be all Smooth Charming Totally Digs Girls Isak.

Lol, I’ll say this, it’s a pretty good transformation. Once he gets going I don’t see any cracks in the facade even knowing that he’s struggling internally.

Even in his apology where he calls himself an asshole, he manages to neg her, kinda. Or whatever you’d call it with that little twist at the end implying he’s got another “cute girl” and Emma. It’s a joke but damn, fake Isak is such a little shit.

I didn’t really notice before but Isak is a little similar to Even here, getting Emma to loosen up by his big talk and charm, kind of like how Even breaks through to Isak with his story about Sonja’s aluminum leg later on. Though Isak is using a truthful story to move forward with his fake interest in Emma, and Even uses a false story to move forward with his real interest in Isak.

This clip ends on such a superficially lighthearted note but it doesn’t make you feel good. Instead it creates this sensation of dread.

This scene is so frustrating because like … Isak could have let this thing with Emma die after he canceled on her pre-drink. Sure, he would have had a first-year girl who didn’t like him, but big deal, in the scheme of things. Or he could have just apologized to her with no flirtation, been upfront about not wanting to take this thing with them further. But he creates an additional problem here by stoking Emma’s interest again. You can see this crashing and burning from a mile away.

Clip 4 - Hello dance chicks

This dance routine goes on too long, lmao, like this lasts more than a minute. Which, to be fair, is probably how it feels when you’re a closeted gay boy having to look at dancing girls because your friends like the view. But it’s also kinda like someone on the crew was like, “Hey Julie, would it be cool if we showcase my cousin and her dance team in this clip?” and Julie was too polite to say no. (This is not actually what I think happened, for the record.)

As noted in the script, this is another instance of Isak trying to make himself feel something, some bit of attraction to these physically fit, tightly-clothed girls, but all he can get out of it is fixation on weird details like the size of one girl’s hands.

“Did he have to be so gay?” Isak, no. Don’t do this.

This is a direct consequence of crap like “the gay test” that fixates on stereotypes and maintaining a masculine image. It’s really sad that we see Isak try to promote this stuff when he’s raw with insecurity over it.

Also, dude, legit no one in your squad cares about whether that guy is gay. They’re all preoccupied with salivating over girls in activewear.

Later on in the episode we’ll hear Even criticize the act of making generalizations against gay people, something that Isak himself is doing here: generalizing that people who act like that must be gay and generalizing that people who are gay act like that. Like Emma claiming that her generalization isn’t a problem because it’s not negative, Isak tries to defend his comment once Jonas calls him on it by saying that he’s not “dissing” him but merely pointing out a fact. A very weak argument when the comment starts with Isak complaining about the guy being too gay.

Shoutout to Marlon’s utterly baffled face when Isak pulls this shit out of nowhere. It is very ironic that Jonas did encourage some of Isak’s insecurity in S1 with his comments about gay songs and going along with OG Elias’ gay jokes, but now Jonas seems to have matured beyond that behavior between seasons, and Isak, the actual gay guy, is the one left behind, struggling with internalized homophobia.

Also, whether or not Jonas suspects Isak is gay at all at this point, it’s good that he called out his friend for saying some offensive crap. A lot of guys would laugh along or let the comment pass unchecked. S1 Jonas didn’t call out Elias and even acted like Isak was unreasonable for being upset. S3 Jonas is one hell of an upgrade on that front.

Lol, if you didn’t like Jonas in S1, S3 is his redemption arc. I was biased because I came into S1 having seen part of S3, so I knew Jonas was going to turn out to be an awesome dude. But it is really striking how the alternating POV structure can reveal different sides to characters, and Jonas is one of the characters with possibly the biggest differences revealed. Eva’s season shows Jonas at his worst; Isak’s season shows Jonas at his best. Some of that is definitely getting a year between them to account for Jonas’ increased maturity, and some of it is just being able to know Jonas in the context of a romantic relationship vs. in the context of a friendship.

Jonas mentions that Isak has been grouchy, because Jonas pays attention to his best bro’s well-being, because he cares!! So damn much!!

Mahdi is still checking out the girls and not paying a lick of attention to this Isak-Jonas argument when Even walks up, by the way.

GODDAMMIT HENRIK, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO TALL

It burns me up inside that Even was wearing the snapback before he throws it to Isak and we didn’t get to see it. Because Henrik is a long, long man. Well, mostly because Julie shot it at that angle.

On the other hand, the angle works really well to create more tension in the scene. Even is towering over Isak and the other boys. His presence is sudden and big. He’s the looming problem that Isak can’t ignore. Isak is sitting down, off-guard. Not only is Even suddenly dominating this moment that was between Isak and his friends, he and Isak are literally not on the same level, both physically and in their interaction. As helpfully pointed out in the script, “Isak doesn’t understand shit about what just happened.”

In the script, Even not only is wearing the snapback, but he sticks it on Isak when he returns it, and like, I can see why that might be considered too much (and Isak immediately panics and takes it off in the script) but god DAMN do I want to see footage where they tried it this way.

Lmao, so did Even know where to find Isak? Or was he wandering around the school with Isak’s hat, hoping to run into him? Or wearing it just because he liked having Isak’s hat on his head?

How much do you want to bet that Isak left the snapback behind because he was desperate to get out of Even’s apartment and away from the Even/Sonja makeout session as fast as possible?

Even, on the other hand, was probably glad to have the hat as an excuse to talk to Isak again.

This scene could have gone very differently had Even found Isak alone instead of with the boy squad. Or, looking at it another way, did Even intentionally approach Isak when he wasn’t alone in order to nullify some of the tension from the situation? Because, even apart from Sonja’s appearance, there was some serious chemistry happening on Friday, I’m sure Even fell harder for Isak than he’d even expected. But his relationship with Sonja hangs between them. Maybe he thought having other people there would make the vibe less fraught. You underestimated how much Isak does not want his bros to know, Even.

The way the atmosphere changes when Even walks in … you can feel Isak’s blood freeze. He just watches Even toss the snapback to him with no effort to catch it because he’s too shocked by what’s happening. He’s so panicked he can come up with absolutely no lies to salvage this situation.

Even is bouncing a little after he approaches Isak, which seems to be a nervous gesture for him. He might seem like the cool confident dude, and sure, Even is often confident and makes the first moves in his pursuit of Isak. But he’s also got a lot of deep-rooted vulnerability. If something happens with Isak … it’ll mean he has to end things with Sonja, a person who has seen Even at his lowest points and still accepts him, cutting off a relationship that has been a source of stability and support despite its serious flaws. And it’ll mean taking a chance on a new person who might not be so okay with the parts of himself Even hates the most.

Even, bless him, reads the tense situation without Isak saying anything. Even though they’re not on the same page, Even can at least tell that Isak is hiding something from his friends. This is one of those early moments that made me really like him - how easily and quickly he can read the room and especially what Isak is feeling, and can act quickly to help him out, similar to how Even handles Emma wanting to pair off with Isak at kosegruppa. He’s a very perceptive person. And he throws out a lie for Isak very casually and shrugs it off and walks away.

Isak is very confused by this encounter, and with scenes where Isak has no idea what’s happened I like to consider Even’s unseen side of the story (to be fair, I like to consider that for ... pretty much all scenes). So I’m trying to imagine what Even wanted or expected from this moment. This is the first scene where he’s interacting with Isak after a life-changing Friday afternoon where they got to know each other and fell hard for each other. That meeting ended with Even’s long-term girlfriend came by, bringing a cold dose of reality to this magical afternoon. So what does Even think will happen when he finds Isak again? What does he hope will happen?

I think from Even’s POV, this certainly wasn’t what he wanted to happen the next time he spoke to Isak. Isak was very clearly not happy with Even’s presence in that moment, which is never a great feeling. But if Even turned this moment over in his head - what was that all about? - he would have to consider that Isak was hiding something from his friends, specifically that he hung out with Even on Friday. So why didn’t Isak want to tell them? What’s so objectionable about two guys randomly hanging out and smoking weed together? Because if there wasn’t anything to hide, why couldn’t Isak just say, “Oh, thanks for returning my hat, hey guys, this is Even?” So then Even would run through the possibilities. Maybe Isak had other plans with these guys, and he bailed on them. But then why did he bail? Because he didn’t want to hang with them, or because he really wanted to hang with Even? Orrrrr …. Was there something else to that afternoon that Isak feels he can’t tell his friends about, and if so, what was that?

IDK, if I were in Even’s shoes, I would be analyzing the hell out of what just happened trying to pick out some meaning from it. And I think while I might be really hurt and disappointed in the moment, when I had been semi-rejected by Isak, if I thought about it further, I might feel a spark of hope over Isak’s reaction. Because maybe this feeling isn’t one-sided. Maybe that afternoon had more significance to Isak than just a fun hangout.

Of course this is all assuming Even is like me and obsesses over the little details of a confusing social interaction. He might have just thought, “Time to try again!” and started picking out the perfect outfit for Friday. We don’t get any clues between this scene and Even showing up at the party to tell us what he might have been thinking.

The script makes it clear that Jonas remembers that Isak was wearing the snapback when they left the school on Friday, therefore realizing that Even was lying. Let’s applaud Jonas’ observational skills because tbh, I would not remember what hat my friends were wearing last week unless it was super out of the ordinary. I guess if one of them were borrowing my own hat I might mentally keep track of it? Still, Jonas is killing it this season with recognizing stuff’s up with Isak.

Isak and Jonas share clothes and I love it, by the way 💛💛💛

Isak calling Even “just some revue nerd from Vilde’s group” stings, man. I know he is obviously lying and Even is already so much more to him, but I’m glad Even wasn’t around to hear that. Like Isak dismissing Even that way is painful on Isak’s part, too. If only Even was “just some revue nerd” Isak wouldn’t be feeling like shit.

Honestly, bless Magnus for interrupting this miserable scenario with his weird-ass BDSM dreams. If ever there was a time where you needed your goofball friend to start talking about getting tied up and punished with a whip, this is it.

Some of Isak’s reaction to Magnus’ story seems like Tarjei laughing at his friend David delivering these ridiculous lines and some of it seems like he and Jonas can’t help but look at each other all are you hearing this shit and at one point it seems like Isak casts a look at Jonas as if to be like so are we done with the topic of gay people and my bad attitude and the revue nerd now? Are you distracted enough to forget it for now? Are we cool?

That whole moment with Even happened so quickly, you know that it was one of those incidents that goes by fast and is hard to process while it’s occurring. But as we later learn, it stuck with Jonas for a while.

So far, Isak has lied or taken part in a lie in every single clip this week: his mom’s “stress,” the gay test (lying to himself or trying to figure out how to live a lie), lying to Vilde about why he can’t host the party, lying to Jonas about who Even is and when Even got his snapback.

Clip 5 - Neon pre-game

This was the first Skam clip I ever saw!

The clip popped up in my recommendations on YouTube, and I was pulling an Isak and messing around on my laptop late at night, so I decided to watch. I fully expected to watch for a minute and then switch to something else, but no, this one clip had me hooked.

I know this is just like, a fun party theme where all the kids can get dressed up in wacky wigs and bright colors, but I think there’s something to both this scene and the 21:21 clip in the next episode that the setting is out of the ordinary and that allows the flirtation between Isak and Even to escalate. In this clip, it’s a party, the lights are turned down, everyone’s dressed unusually. Things are already out of the norm. It’s because things aren’t ordinary that this situation with Isak and Even can be pushed a little farther. It’s when the lights are low and everyone’s dancing with painted faces that Isak and Even can lock eyes while they’re kissing girls because it’s something off from their usual reality. When the lights come up and the music’s off and everyone’s grabbing their coats to leave and go back into the rest of the world, breaking the spell, and Even levels that stare at Isak - that’s too real, that makes Isak look away. But it’s that slightly surreal, slightly dreamy vibe that allows for Isak and Even to take a step forward.

I love seeing Linn dressed up and socializing! Vilde was right, she needed a push.

Chris is here, but not Kasper, which is probably just due to actor availability since he’s mentioned in the script. It would have been nice to get some more insight into that relationship and especially what ended it, since we get so little of Chris’ inner life. I mean, Vilde/Magnus is also a “joke” relationship in a lot of respects and we still got more of a clue of why they might have something genuine besides a shared interest in TMI.

The script had Jonas calling Isak and Isak presumably ignoring him, a detail that is left out of the final clip. Jonas does mention that he tried to call Isak in a clip next episode, though.

Notice we open the dialogue with Isak asking Emma what music she likes, aka the question that Even asked him on Friday. Which is a common enough icebreaker, but I don’t think these facts are unrelated! Like I realize Isak has dating experience but really Isak takes a lot of cues from Even in navigating a real romantic relationship, little things that come up later on. And also, as much as Isak might be trying to be straight, trying to make it work with Emma, his mind is clearly drifting back to that afternoon with Even. How right it must have felt compared to this thing with Emma or with other girls, and how, maybe without even thinking about it much, he’s referring back to his interaction to Even as a model of how to flirt.

Lmao I mean, Justin Bieber ain’t my favorite musical artist either, but I feel like Isak’s reaction to Emma being a fan is so typical of dudes. I will give Emma some credit, she laughs off his teasing and doesn’t get too insecure about his comments, at least not visibly. And when he asks her about ‘90s hip-hop she admits she doesn’t know much about it instead of pretending to (ISAK).

Isak also sounds like a typical dude when talking about his musical tastes to Emma. However, Isak suddenly being an expert on Nas is the funniest shit ever. Emma, let me tell you all about the greatest musical artist ever, who I learned about a week ago! Tarjei plays this moment really well because I kinda cringed and I also laughed really hard.

It also shows that, even with Isak taking gay tests and trying to flirt with Emma this week, he found time to research and listen to Nas, someone important to Even.

In the script Vilde throws herself at Even into a hug when he enters and then it’s mentioned that “Vilde awkwardly greets Sonja,” which is kind of a random detail. I guess the awkwardness comes from Vilde launching herself too enthusiastically into a hug at Even in front of his girlfriend? Was Vilde supposed to be kinda thirsty for Even, thinking he was a single dude and wanting to get with someone (out of jealousy at her friends hooking up)?

The script also has Isak deliberately ignore Even when he tries to say hi, which wouldn’t have worked with the positioning of the actors in this scene, but it’s obviously colder than what we get here.

Looking ahead to S4, I’m still on the fence about how much Julie really thought about the Sana-Even connection - there are things that make me think she did plan it to a degree, there are things that seem retconned - but I’ve never thought this moment of Sonja introducing herself to Sana has to be a big inconsistency with Even and Sana knowing each other. All he had to do was tell Sonja beforehand that Sana would be at the party and that he didn’t want to call attention to the fact that they knew each other before he went to Nissen, and she probably would have agreed to play along like they were strangers.

I think Emma placed Isak’s hand on her boob because he momentarily stopped paying attention to her by looking at Even. But I don’t think she realized why he stopped paying attention to her.

Emma: “My bra will be bothering me until I can TAKE IT OFF I mean just a suggestion really it’d be so welcome to get out of it ha ha ha.”

I was going to laugh and say Isak could not look less interested in touching Emma’s boob but then I took another look at Tarjei’s face and remembered that Isak is supposed to be forcing himself to be turned on by girls, and mentally he was probably thinking okay, here’s your chance, focus and suddenly it got a lot less funny.

Jesus Lord, that look Even sends Isak from across the room while draping his jacket over his shoulder. While clad in that tight white T-shirt. He means business. No mystery at all why Isak takes that moment to gulp down his beer and start making out with Emma. This is certainly a challenge Isak is undertaking for himself, trying to be straight, but it’s also a fuck-you to Even (and not in the way Even wants). Hey Even, we flirt all afternoon and then your girlfriend comes in? Then you bring her to my apartment and give me that look across the room? Well, fuck you, I’m not dealing with your mixed signals now.

There is such a clear difference between when Isak makes out with girls versus when he kisses Even. With Emma here (and with Sara in S2) you can see how calculated it is; the way Isak rubs his hands over her back, the way he tilts his head in a coordinated way, the length of the kisses. It feels entirely like a performance with those girls, like there’s something cerebral about it, his mind is working on how to make it seem real from the outside. When Isak eventually kisses Even, it just seems like he’s … not thinking. Or maybe he’s thinking, but not because he’s trying to perform. With Even, Isak just wants to kiss him. He’s not worried about making it look good, he’s concentrated on how good it feels, and he’s just reacting on instinct with what his body wants.

I would pay to see a version of this scene where Even plops down on the sofa and Emma is like, “Endre, Isak was just telling me about Nas, he says he made the best album of all time!”

Also, it wouldn’t have worked with Isak’s POV, but don’t you wish we could have seen Even’s face when he noticed Isak had his hand on Emma’s boob, and especially when Isak broke their loaded eye contact to make out with Emma? Like can you imagine on Even’s end, when he’s kind of still in that conversational bubble with Sonja and Vilde, how he burst out of it? OK GOTTA BLAST BYEEEEEEE

And then he launches across the room like he’s auditioning for The Flash.

“I’m starting to think you’re bonding too much” Subtle, Even.

“I thought we were a team?” SUBTLE.

Even does do an admirable job of trying to seem cheerful and not possessive or jealous, but you can see him deflate a little once he shakes Isak’s shoulder and compliments his apartment and Isak is just not having it, and meanwhile Emma gets to lean in to Isak taking advantage of that proximity.

Lmao, can you imagine if these three actually attempted to bake bread or whatever for kosegruppa? All the passive-aggressiveness and competing for Isak’s attention, and Isak wanting to sink into the floor? I’ll say it again, I will never not feel a little cheated that we didn’t get more actual kosegruppa shenanigans.

It’s kinda funny that Emma is raving about Eskild considering they could have met only like an hour or so ago. And already she’s like “HE’S GAY, LIFE OF THE PARTY!”

Shout out to Eskild, Linn, and Chris’ dancing though. Loves of my life right there.

Even is honestly a very nice person, I think kindness is one of his defining qualities, but man, he does not care for Emma. Though even when he’s calling her out on her generalizing about gay people, he’s not being excessively rude to her? He’s not calling her homophobic or ignorant or anything, he’s just challenging her and explaining to her why it’s offensive. And he’s justified in doing so anyway, it’s not like he targeted her over something stupid. What she’s saying affects him as a pansexual person.

Actually, Emma harboring generalizations about gay people is perhaps part of why she didn’t consider that the boy turning down a blowjob from her and giving her mixed messages might be gay. He’s not ~hilarious and fitting into her ideas about gay people. To be clear, I’m not trying to put all the blame on her, because Isak is also randomly making out with her and encouraging her crush on him, too. But she’s just got a limited view of gay people and their experiences, as evidenced by other stuff later in the season.

Man, the way Isak’s head turns when Even calls Emma out on using superficial generalizations. This conversation is just what he needed to hear at this moment. That his paranoia over stuff like the gay test, his criticisms of the dance instructor for seeming too gay, all of that crap, are wrong. They’re inaccurate. Just because he likes guys does not mean Isak has to be this way or that way. That he can be an individual rather than having to cram himself into boxes that don’t fit. That if he identifies as gay, it doesn’t mean that everyone can sum up his existence by that one adjective. And he’s hearing it from exactly the best person who could say it at this moment: the guy he likes. Imagine what a relief it is to know not only that Even doesn’t buy into this bullshit, but also that he will vocally speak out against it. And you know that Isak is also wondering more about whether Even is not straight based on this conversation because it sounds like Even has given this topic a lot of thought.

Also when Emma is objecting to Even’s comments, she turns back to Isak, maybe for reinforcement, or maybe because she doesn’t want to lose an argument in front of him, and he quickly lowers his gaze, because he doesn’t want to seem too interested in what Even is saying. But of course Isak is intensely interested. Emma isn’t even quite in focus in some of these shots. It’s all Isak zeroing in on Even’s perspective.

Even also uses the “All Muslims are terrorists” example as a comparison, and it was one of the moments that people took as potential evidence that Even had an interest in Islam and possibly knew Sana. After S4, we know that this example is personal to him because his best friends were Muslims and experienced the harm from those generalizations.

Additionally, if you consider that Even had a suicidal episode prior to this season that had something to do with shame over liking boys, this is quite a bit of self-reflection to have gained in the meantime. I’m not sure we ever learn exactly when Even’s suicide attempt took place (like what month and exactly how much school he missed)? But in the period between the suicide attempt and S3, Even appeared to have gained a lot of acceptance about his sexuality.

As I said above, this is the first Skam clip I ever saw, and this moment right here, with Even and Emma talking on the couch, was the one that really grabbed my attention. I was impressed with this part because it seemed to have more nuance and maturity than a lot of similar takes on homophobia - I feel like a lot of shows sometimes still don’t get that positive generalizations are still generalizations? And I definitely feel like many shows’ characters wouldn’t have a discussion about it.

And for what it’s worth, I really liked Even after this exchange and it’s one of many moments that made it harder for me to think that he was two-timing or using Isak. This seemed very genuine and thoughtful, and like he was someone who had strong investment in the topic.

Not to drag Emma too much again, but her calling this conversation “boring” is something that makes me, well, less than fond of her. In fact I find her calling this conversation boring and flouncing away a lot worse than making a generalization about gay people in the first place. Because people do say offensive things out of ignorance; Isak certainly says his fair share of crap regarding gay people this season. But people can also be educated about these points. For instance, Isak takes Eskild’s Pride speech seriously. It’s that Emma doesn’t take Even’s comments seriously that’s bad. That she doesn’t want to confront that she may be perpetuating harmful ideas. I don’t expect her to fall over herself apologizing but this conversation has not permeated her brain at all. This isn’t a “boring” conversation to Isak, who is gay, and who needs this conversation at the moment. The fact that Emma can call it boring and walk away is some massive straight privilege. I don’t want to demonize her too much because she is only like 16, but yeah, girl is very ignorant about LGBT issues.

HERE WE GO, ANOTHER ICONIC S3 MOMENT.

I never really noticed but at the beginning of Call Your Girlfriend, when we’re watching Isak bop along (adorably), you can see Even’s neon bandanna at the side of the frame, out of focus. It reminds me a lot of shots where we are firmly in Isak’s POV, such as in the Talk Show Host courtyard walk, where part of Isak’s head is at the side of the frame out of focus, almost like we’re watching over his shoulder, or directly seeing through his eyes. So this moment in Call Your Girlfriend, whether intentional or not, almost seems like we’re watching through Even’s eyes as he looks at Isak dancing. It doesn’t work perfectly, since Isak eventually looks off to the side at Even (and not at the camera) but I like to think of Even watching Isak as he danced with Emma, turning back to Sonja a moment before Isak looked over at Even.

So I love the Evak nose rubs as much as anyone, that’s their special thing, but Even does it here to Sonja as they’re dancing. My headcanon is going to be that Isak saw this and deliberately instigated it with Even in the bed scene as a way of making it theirs. I really think Isak takes a lot of cues from Even, as mentioned earlier, more than he realizes consciously.

Also, while I think Even making out with Sonja at the end of S2 was for Sonja’s benefit, in this scene I think a lot of the Even/Sonja making out is a performance for Isak. Which is not really fair to Sonja, but well, there you go. Even saw Isak making out with Emma, he suspects it was for show (if nothing else he knows Isak was not enthused to be in a kosegruppa group with Emma and so his interest probably isn’t genuine), and this is his way of saying two can play that game.

never 4get the iconic script line by Julie in reference to Isak’s dancing, “lol Tarjei”

THIS SONG, by the way. This song is a jam anyway but talk about those completely on-point lyrics.

This is one of those diegetic music moments where the characters are listening to the music inside the scene. What makes it work so damn well is because Even knows this song and is deliberately making eye contact with Isak at the most apropos lyrics. You can’t tell me otherwise. It’s not just the soundtrack coincidentally happening to sync up and be lyrically relevant for the viewers, it’s the song syncing up within the scene itself, at the party - that would be loaded enough, but Even is also putting on a show for Isak here. There’s a reason he turns Sonja in place and looks at Isak exactly at the line “and now it’s gonna be me and you.” Yeah, I know I’m with her, Isak, and I know you’re with her, but I feel you looking at me, and I’m gonna look back.

I mean Even, Gabrielle’s #1 fan, knows how to communicate meaningfully via pop songs to the object of his affection.

Possibly my favorite part is right after that scorching eye contact, when you can see Isak has just been struck to the core by Even looking at him, and then he closes his eyes and goes back to kissing Emma. Because you know he’s imagining he’s kissing someone else.

I feel bad for Sonja and Emma here but at least they remained happily oblivious to the boys eye-fucking each other across the room while making out with them.

There’s not enough Eva in this season so let’s appreciate how gosh darn cute she is with her yellow hair bow.

Also Sana is so precious with her face paint and dimples!

How did Isak not burst into flames when Even looked across the room at him like that? The most smoldering look of the clip, for my money. That is the gaze of a man who knows what (who) he wants and is not shy to show it. Also note Isak quickly looking away and then “surreptitiously” back to Even a moment later, when Even has looked away and is deciding to play it more cool.

Emma touches Sonja’s teeth which is kind of weird, although Sonja does have very nice teeth! But I mean, even my close friends probably wouldn’t just touch my teeth for fun, let alone someone I just met. I assume this was something to do with the blacklight? Sonja’s teeth were very bright in the dark? Or else Emma is interested in amateur dentistry.

Lmao when Emma suggests Isak take a taxi with her, Sonja, and Even, you can imagine that is the absolute last scenario Isak would enjoy right now, Emma trying to get into his pants and Even mentally undressing him while Sonja is right there.

Here we goooooooo with another memorable Evak kitchen scene! Julie sure loves to have people flirt in kitchens, huh.

Guys, I got butterflies watching this scene. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen it, but part of me is still like are they going to kiss????

“Didn’t you take a taxi with the others?” “I have a bike.” Lmao I don’t believe that.

I can FEEL the tension coming off the screen. Like I can imagine everything Isak is feeling here. The nerves, the attraction, the pull toward Even. Trying to fight it, trying to maintain some detachment.

You can imagine Isak’s heart beating so fast. SHIT Even is right here, in his personal space, they’re alone together.

Even asks about Isak having a good time with Emma - funny because we all know, and he knows, that Isak just made out with Emma while staring at Even. It’s a joke, an inquiry that would seem harmless except for the massive irony. Also not a joke because Even really is kind of jealous and Isak plays off his comment. No matter if they’re aware of this thing between them, Isak is still making out with someone other than Even and it stings.

The acting here is so so SO good. Isak is like “why are you telling me about this” when Even starts talking about Sonja, he’s cautious, he’s trying not to give himself away. Meanwhile Even is trying to find a way to break through to Isak. He’s trying to communicate that he doesn’t want to be with her, but that it’s complicated. And when Isak is not having it, he switches to making an outlandish joke about it. Both of them communicate these shifts so well with their microexpressions, body language, tone of voice, etc.

There’s so much delicious subtext in this scene! This is one of Skam’s strengths - we know what’s going on in this scene, they don’t need to spell it out for us with lots of straighforward expository dialogue because the strength of the acting, the pacing, and the carefully chosen dialogue tells us everything we need to know. On a very instinctive level, we can tell when Isak becomes more on edge or when he lowers his guard; we can tell when Even decides he needs to try a new tactic in getting through to Isak.

Even and Sonja’s relationship is pretty complex even if we don’t get many glimpses at it up close and personal - you have to take a lot of it in bits and pieces, based on what Even says, what Sonja says, what Isak sees. I think they really needed to break up whether or not Isak was in the picture, but the thing is, I can completely understand why Even feels he can’t break up with her. She’s the one who stood by him through his episodes, throughout a terrible point of his life, and he probably feels like he owes her or that it’s wrong to leave her after all that. Adding to that, she’s one of the most stable factors in his life - after losing his friends, having to change schools, having to repeat his final year, dealing with manic/depressive episodes, etc. And because Sonja calls the shots, she’s someone he can rely on. He’s used to her taking control and telling him what’s real and not real. He’s got so much insecurity about his mental illness and he’s used to Sonja for support, so you can imagine how it’d be hard to cut himself off from her judgment. How is he supposed to stand on his own? She’s his aluminum leg.

Again, Even thinking quickly on his feet, spinning this ridiculous yarn about Sonja’s aluminum leg. He really gets into it! And this dumb story does melt the tension so beautifully, so kudos to Even for being a giant weirdo.

That is a damn fine delivery by Tarjei on Isak’s confused “What?” Precious.

As has been analyzed many times, Even’s story about Sonja’s aluminum leg is not really about his girlfriend’s fake prosthetic limb. He’s talking about himself and his bipolar disorder. She’s doing a lot better now (Even is doing a lot better after his manic/depressive episodes at Elvebakken and his suicide attempt). She’s gotten a lot of help from physiotherapists (Even has presumably been to some mental health specialists. Although it would be nice to know this for certain! Something I always wanted more of - info on Even’s mental health treatment plan.) You can hardly see she limps (Even seems like a swaggering confident young man and at first glance you would not be able to see his mental health struggles or vulnerabilities).

Notice how Even moves in subtly closer to Isak after Isak’s clued in on the joke, and that the camera zooms in a bit as well, making us feel the distance closing. I think even Isak notices and needs a second to adjust (after Even says he could’ve joked about something way worse, he kind of sputters out a reply, which could be disbelief or could also be him taking a second to re-calibrate with Even RIGHT THERE OMG).

This is how you do on-screen chemistry. Tarjei and Henrik are really feeding off each other, responding to each other’s movements and eye contact, making this conversation seem natural.

Regarding Even’s comment about Sonja having a dick and that this would be way too far to joke about - I definitely get why this comment would bother people. I think part of the joke is that Even is quite fine with dick and “going too far” is ironic when Even keeps joking about dick and balls, including making a blowjob joke within seconds of his first conversation with Isak. Their reactions make it clear that talking about dick is a lot more charged when there’s all this sexual tension floating around in the kitchen. But the comment is somewhat jarring and is worded in an unfortunate way that’s close to common transphobic arguments.

Isak not being able to look at Even at this point slays me. He tries it for a second but quickly looks back down. Even is too close, Isak is too attracted to him, this tension between them is too thick, Even’s girlfriend is too much of an obstacle and it’s too hard to think about how Even can’t break up with her, and all his plans for this week about how to get turned on by Emma, how to act straight, are unraveling so fast because this thing with Even is too real. It’s too much.

And when Isak says Sonja’s name it’s palpable how much this situation upsets him. Sonja is very sweet and cute. She’s Even’s very nice girlfriend who he can’t dump. No matter if they’re flirting and there’s all this tension, she’s the elephant in the room. It’s like it’s the fact that Isak is clearly struggling and not even able to look at him that makes Even decide to kiss him, because he knows what it means. Show him it’s not about Sonja anymore. My heart hurts at how resolutely Isak keeps his head down, even when Even moves in for the kiss.

Can I just say I love the sound effects in this scene? Or rather, lack thereof? I think you can hear the door unlocking at one point, for Noora, but otherwise the silence, just their breathing, every inch they move, all of that is so perfect. Like this is all being laid bare, it’s hard to hide anymore when it’s just the two of them and there are no distractions.

I adore Julie’s bit in the script about Isak looking down at the hole in the sock. ADORE IT. I can completely see it even if it’s not physically shown on screen. I know it’s mostly to get Tarjei into Isak’s mindset but damn that bit is so perfect.

Though this is the part in the season where I’m like, OK, Even should’ve broken up with Sonja. Even though I completely get why he doesn’t from a character perspective! The previous episodes contained this nebulous getting-to-know-you phase where I can accept Even still being with Sonja to a degree even if there is some emotional cheating going on, even if he’s deliberately trying to get close to Isak. But trying to kiss someone? That’s when you need to decide if you want to call it quits with your old partner or pursue this new person. Although again, I get why he wanted to be REALLY FUCKING CERTAIN before he broke up with her, considering it’s not easy to end this relationship and the last time he made a move on a boy, things did not end well.

Imagine being a Norwegian Skam fan and following S2 and being obsessed with Noora’s story which is this national phenomenon, and then S3 starts and Noora’s just gone, not only out of focus but gone, out of the damn country, and you miss her and want to see her again, and maybe you’re not really keen on this Isak kid but after a few episodes you’re warming up to him and his budding romance with Even is really cute and you hope they get together and then there’s this scene packed full of sexual tension and they’re about to finally kiss and it feels like ages even though it’s only been like three weeks and that is when some jackass interrupts this almost-kiss and you’re going to murder whoever did it and that is when you get your beloved Noora back. I mean. A+ trolling, Julie.

What did Even think of Noora, anyway, with that look he shoots Isak? Just a general “who is this and why is she preempting our makeouts” or is he wondering if she’s Isak’s ex or something?

I think so much about what happened right after this scene! How awkward was Even’s leaving? It seems from the next clip (at the start of episode 4) that they talked about hanging out the next day? I wonder if that was supposed to be a text message or something that didn’t make it into the social media updates. Did Even go home by himself, or did he go find Sonja and the others? I’m not sure if that’s clear from the texts. What would have happened if Noora came home like a minute later, after they’d kissed - would Even have broken up with Sonja immediately or

I used to wonder when Isak got Even’s phone number. For a while I thought he had Even listed as “Even Kosegruppa” in his phone because he got his number at the first kosegruppa meeting - that seems pretty early in their relationship, but it’s also the only period of time where he didn’t know Even’s full name, and it would have made sense to call him “Even Kosegruppa” seeing that’s the only context he knew him at that point. But it did seem strange to me that they would have exchanged numbers but Isak wouldn’t be shown freaking out over this, or Even wouldn’t have “casually” contacted Isak. So now I’m thinking they only exchanged numbers after this party scene, when they were tentatively making plans to hang out the next day. Tbh I could totally see Even putting himself as “Even Kosegruppa” in Isak’s phone to be funny. Because clearly this connection between them has escalated and there’s a joke in suggesting that Isak needs to be reminded how he knows Even - oh yeah, that guy from kosegruppa - when they both know it’s more than that. And Isak would of course never change it.

The song over the credits (”Lite og Stort” by No. 4) is about finding your way back home, which is literally Noora’s situation right now. I think the lyrics are specifically about “home” meaning Norway as a country? I’m going off the English translation, though, feel free to correct if I’m missing something.

Anyway this scene hooked me. I was blown away by their acting in the kitchen scene, I was floored by the level of chemistry. Despite not knowing anything that came before this scene, I needed to have these characters kiss! And I loved the pacing and the dialogue, how natural it all felt. I distinctly remember thinking. “Now this is the kind of television I like to watch.”

General Comments:

This week has one of my favorite uses of social media, the “If you don’t remember her name in the morning take her to Starbucks” picture. It went up after the clip with the dance chicks. Utterly perfect deployment, Isak posting that right when he’s concerned about seeming straight. All performative, all BS.

Isak lies to the guys about the party, claiming he’s going home to chill and do washing. Magnus even mentions that there’s a revue party happening but Isak fails to mention that he’s hosting it.

Emma messages Isak after she’s left the pre-drink asking him where he is and later drunk texts him telling him he’s great and wanting to go over and be with him at like 3 a.m. Isak, you dug that hole yourself.

Isak asks Emma how everything went after the neon pre-drink and Emma is like, “Sonja is so cool!” and immediately Isak is all “I have to go now.” Sonja’s awesomeness is not something he wants to hear about in detail.

I didn’t realize but there’s an IG post from Magnus on Friday showing Mahdi hooking up with a girl and Magnus calling himself a third wheel. I didn’t remember Mahdi ever hooking up on screen with anyone so I mean, I’m glad he got some during the show?

I own exactly one Funko Pop (Brienne of Tarth) and I know this would never happen outside of my dreams but I would kill for some Skam Funkos, particularly of the last clip of this episode, with Even’s white T-shirt and neon bandanna and Isak’s pink paint streaks and Illuminati shirt. Complete with Noora for that special cock-blocking authenticity.

This is a total tangent, but I’ve been looking up Baz Luhrmann stuff for these recaps and did you know that there’s a Moulin Rouge stage musical that literally just premiered? As in, yesterday, July 10? Starring Aaron Tveit as Christian? I have left my middle school Moulin Rouge obsession out of these recaps but I’m wondering how a live musical version is going to work. There’s a ton of it that would translate fine but then I feel like a Moulin Rouge without Baz Luhrmann giving you motion sickness with his wild-ass editing and cinematography is missing that special something.

#skam reactions #skam season 3 #skam #isak valtersen #evak

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bestworstcase · 3 years

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replies on this post ( @ngocthach4020, numbering mine ):

Counterarguments:

1 - While I do agree that Zhan Tiri does a good job making it seem like she does care about Cassandra, the fact that Cassandra trusted a total stranger for over a year in itself makes her intelligence dubious at best. Not to mention Cassandra never asks the total stranger who mysteriously knows this much about her for her NAME during all that time, nor tries to find out anything else about her.

2 - Rapunzel is the heir to the throne. Of course she’s going to get more recognition than Cassandra. Cassandra herself was given multiple guard assignments throughout Season 1, cheered on by the people of Corona even when she came second place to Rapunzel at the Challenge of the Brave, and trusted with leading the assault against Varian in the season finale. This isn’t even getting into how she has plenty of opportunities at Ingvarr or Vardaros.

3 - The people of Vardaros focused on Rapunzel despite preferring Cassandra over her, yes, but that doesn’t change how they treated Rapunzel like dirt and Cassandra seemed to LIKE that.

4 - In the song I’d Give Anything, Rapunzel does acknowledge she wronged Cassandra.

5 - Just because Cassandra has legitimate grievances, it doesn’t excuse her trying to murder people who never did anything bad to her, which she does several times throughout Season 3.

firstly: i mean this in the kindest way possible but none of these are actually counter-arguments to the point i was making, which is that cassandra has very good reasons for her decision to trust zhan tiri and be emotionally vulnerable with her in the house of yesterday’s tomorrow. #2 is the only one relevant to the subject at hand, #1, #4, and #5 all concern things that happen after the incident being discussed and are thus irrelevant, and for #3 it’s unclear to me what point you think you’re countering and also, i have no idea what you’re talking about.

but as with anything i have plenty of thoughts

#1: i have two thoughts about this one

the first is that this is, first and foremost, a writing issue. for whatever reason, the writing team was not interested in digging into cassandra’s character arc in s3, and they also were not interested in developing zhan tiri as a character, and they really were not interested in elaborating on the cass + zhan tiri friendship whatsoever. the end result of this lack of interest is that all of this character development is gestured at or loosely implied, and the vast majority of their relationship occurs off screen. we are shown their first meeting in relative detail, given a handful of brief glimpses that mostly comprise zhan tiri saying a line or two while cassandra listens and glares, and then given the end result of cass doing whatever zhan tiri tells her to do until a narratively convenient plot device is inserted to make her stop. the character development in this arc is extremely poor. no one is arguing that it isn’t.

however my second thought is that, as a consequence, “cass travels with this person for almost a year without ever asking her name or trying to find out anything about her” is not, in fact, canon. that’s a matter of interpretation. (eg: i spent the entirety of the first half of the season assuming that of course cassandra knew who zhan tiri was, my reaction to CR in this regard boiled down to “well if cass didn’t already know that was zhan tiri she certainly does NOW,” RTTS did nothing to change my mind, and i was legitimately taken aback when OAH confirmed that cass just didn’t know. all of this was a plausible interpretation because so little of the cass + ziti relationship actually develops on screen. there is SO MUCH information missing.)

the point being: the only canonical information we have regarding zhan tiri’s identity and cassandra’s knowledge thereof is that cassandra doesn’t learn zhan tiri’s true identity until OAH. this does not preclude cassandra pressing the issue and zhan tiri lying to her by telling her a fake name, or feigning ignorance (a la “i’ve been trapped in that house for as long as i can remember and i have no idea where i came from or who i was before then,” which is absolutely a plausible cover story given the kind of things tromus pulled off whilst team corona was trapped in the HOYT and that cass herself has very recent experience with magical memory loss), or masquerading as an aspect of the moonstone itself (which is at least plausible enough that a good chunk of the fandom theorized that that’s who she was in the early half of the season).

there is, frankly, no evidence to support interpreting cassandra’s “who are you?” as “i’ve literally never asked this question before” instead of “you told me things about yourself that i believed but it’s not adding up anymore so i’m confronting you on your lies” or vice versa, because... we just don’t know. i personally favor the latter interpretation over the former, because it makes more sense to me, but the text is unclear.

all of which is to say: the post was about why cassandra trusts zhan tiri initially, a questions which - as i said in the original post - is answered very clearly on screen. there is not enough canonical information about the development of their relationship afterwards to do anything more than speculative analysis, ie headcanon, regarding how zhan tiri cultivated that trust. for what it’s worth my personal assumption is that zhan tiri continued to act as she does in RR, fostering the emotional connection between herself and cassandra, and that shortly after the stinger in who’s afraid of the big bad wolf (ie their second proper meeting) she gave cass some explanation of who she was and what she wanted. i also make the general assumption that they shared a lot of conversations during the long walk back to corona because it is ludicrous to imagine otherwise.

#2: cassandra is a commoner who was indoctrinated from birth with the cultural belief that the lives of the royal family are more important and have more inherent worth than her own. this only intensified once rapunzel returned to corona. cassandra exists in a system that chews her up and spits her out without so much as a thank you, and rapunzel is the center around which that system orbits. “rapunzel is the heir to the throne so of course she gets more recognition than cassandra, her servant” isn’t, in fact, a counterargument. that is exactly the problem. the world cass is in is inherently devalues her personhood. even her own father repeatedly prioritizes his duty to the monarchy over the wellbeing of his daughter.

in s1, cass is given guard duties which she is expected to fit around her already extremely busy schedule as a maid and lady-in-waiting to the princess, all without ever being made an actual member of the royal guard. she is given, in other words, all of the work and responsibility without any of the recognition, salary, benefits, or job security afforded to actual guards, and she is expected to do it during her scant time off. and she does it all with the constant unspoken threat of being sent to a convent against her will if she screws up looming over her head. that’s not... privilege or an opportunity, that’s flat out exploitation.

even in SOTS, she is only put in command of the assault on old corona because most of the higher officers of the guard are out of commission, including the captain. and this happens mere hours after her father forcibly sends her to a convent, which really underscores what little autonomy cassandra has in her life and how capricious and arbitrary any “opportunities” that come her way in corona are.

yes, she is better accepted in vardaros and the queen of ingvarr did at one point extend an invitation for her to join the battalion in ingvarr, but—again, that’s not really a counterargument. “cassandra would have to leave her home and move to a foreign kingdom in order to be treated with respect and live as her authentic self” is an enormous indictment of corona itself.

#3: the vardarans are less than receptive to rapunzel attempting to force her sunny demeanor onto them and react with hostile indifference when she persists even after being told—by multiple people including vex, quaid, cassandra, and iirc eugene—that her behavior was not wanted or welcome. they make their opinions known without making any attempt to soften the blow, but—with the one exception of “ya clod” lady—none of them harass or bully her. i’m not sure where you’re getting “they treat her like dirt” from. they treat her like people who are annoyed with having someone else’s culture jammed down their throats by some foreign princess, which,

cass, by the same token, enjoys being surrounded by people she “clicks” with and with whom she can just relax and be herself, and she repeatedly cautions rapunzel against trying to make the vardarans act, think, and feel like coronans... in other words, she advises rapunzel to be culturally sensitive. and she’s right to do so. cass doesn’t start gloating about being better liked until after rapunzel lashes out at her and makes a huge deal out of cass’s events being different / more in tune with vardaran culture than her own.

#4: things rapunzel does a full year after cass meets zhan tiri in the shell house are not relevant to the question of why cass trusts zhan tiri in the shell house and also lol no... she doesn’t? these are the lyrics of i’d give anything:

[RAPUNZEL] I know we've grown apart It breaks my heart in two I miss your company The closeness we once knew

I won't pretend to know Just what you're going through But I'd give anything for you Yes, I'd give anything to relive everything with you So if you find that you're in darkness or despair Though you won't turn to me Please know I'll be right there Name any sacrifice I'll pay the price that's due 'Cause I'd give anything for you Yes, I'd give anything to relive everything we knew Yes, I'd give anything For you

i don’t... know how to read an expression of apology or even just acknowledgement of wrongdoing into this song because it... isn’t there. this is the exact same sentiment rapunzel spends the entirety of s3 expressing, which is that she misses her friendship with cass and would do anything to get it back and she doesn’t understand why cassandra is so upset. and frankly it really. does not reflect well on rapunzel as a character because cassandra explains her grievances very clearly at the beginning of the season: “my whole life, i’ve been cast aside for you. no more,” followed by, you know, the entirety of crossing the line.

like even just... compare rapunzel’s lines at the top of crossing the line:

[RAPUNZEL] This has to stop now Whatever it is that you're going through We'll fix it together, me and you Just like we've always done

to her lines in i’d give anything:

I won't pretend to know Just what you're going through

there has been zero growth. zero recognition of the fact that cassandra has, by the time of i’d give anything, told rapunzel what she’s going through at least three times. (she laid everything out for rapunzel in the dark fortress after taking the moonstone; in gothel’s mirror room in TOTS, cassandra expressed her anguish over gothel’s abandonment and her feelings of inferiority; in OAH, cass used feldspar’s play to fumblingly express her difficulty sharing her feelings with rapunzel; and if you want to count the BVA rock telepathy and cassandra furiously screaming “i don’t follow your orders anymore!” in CR, that brings us to a total of five times that cassandra shares at least part of what she’s “going through” with rapunzel only for it to, apparently, go in one ear and out the other because by plus est raps is still like “what could POSSIBLY be GOING ON with cass.”)

the closest rapunzel ever comes to expressing her own wrongdoing is the mealy-mouthed “we both did things wrong” sentiment in OAH (“maybe you’re right and it is your fault, rapunzel... partially...”), which she then undermines by going essentially “but if you had just told me how you felt then none of this would have happened” (ignoring that cass... did... tell her how she felt... repeatedly... in s2...) and rapunzel acknowledging that it was probably annoying to deal with a sunny “flower child” when she was fresh out of the tower (which is true, but entirely glosses over her treatment of cass in s2). in the former instance it’s unclear what, if anything, rapunzel truly thinks she did wrong (certainly “not listening” isn’t it), and in the latter case she is apologizing for being ~too free-spirited~ in the first couple weeks after the tower which... wasn’t even the problem back then and certainly wasn’t the core problem in s2. and by her own admission in i’d give anything rapunzel still doesn’t even understand why cassandra was upset in the first place, let alone how she may have contributed to it.

like the utter dearth of development between cass and zhan tiri, this is ultimately a writing problem that reflects poorly on the character, rather than a character problem per se. for whatever reason, the writing team didn’t want to examine the legitimacy of cassandra’s actual grievances—which by extension meant that they couldn’t write rapunzel as having any awareness of those grievances, so the end result is cass obsessing over gothel and rapunzel spending the entire season baffled, just baffled, about what cass is so worked up about, all while sadly pining for the friendship they used to have and vocalizing a desire to get it back but simultaneously ignoring everything cass says about why she’s upset, because rapunzel listening to cass would require rapunzel to genuinely wrestle with her own role in what happened, which isn’t possible because that would loop us back around to all those legitimate grievances that the writers just didn’t want to (or couldn’t) deal with.

but tldr no at no point in the narrative of s3 does rapunzel genuinely acknowledge the actual things she did wrong by cass.

#5: i’m genuinely not sure why you think this is even relevant at all, unless you somehow read “cass did nothing wrong” into the argument of “it is both natural and reasonable for cass to trust the one (1) person who appears to give a damn about how she feels,” which i think says more about you than it does about me.

#rta

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