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alinaastarkov · 4 years

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There's a dilemma that you Dany morons don't think about. If Dany is going to be seen as an heir she needs Dorne's support because they have gender equality. Without it Dany is behind Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Stannis, great-grandson of Aegon V. And after that there's even the chance of Robert's bastards being legitimized so she's behind Mya Stone, Bella, Gendry and Edric Storm. Dany has nothing without Dorne. But you idiots can't even acknowledge that she fucked up majorly with Quentyn Martell.

Right, you asked for a history lesson so you’re gonna get it.

George R. R. Martin has based ASoIaF on a lot of things, but it’s fair to say he has been most heavily influenced by British/ English history. The laws in Westeros are very similar to medieval England, the geography is similar, the Dance of the Dragons is literally The Anarchy (the war of succession between Empress Matilda and King Stephen), the main conflict is based on the Wars of the Roses, etc.

Succession laws in Westeros are one of the things he took from English history, besides Dorne. The main part of this was something called male primogeniture, which he has copied into the series pretty much unchanged. Male primogeniture meant a female member of the dynasty (or, more specifically a dynast’s daughter, i.e. the daughter of the ruling monarch/ head of the family) only inherited if she had no living brothers and her brothers had no living children themselves. After that, older siblings come before younger siblings, etc. Dorne practices absolute primogeniture, where the eldest child of the dynast will inherit, no matter what gender, and they will always come before younger siblings/ anyone from extended branches of the family.

Having educated you on that fact, let’s educate you on your Stannis/ Baratheon claim which is honestly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. No one has brought this up before cause it’s really that fucking stupid. Stannis has a claim because of Robert, but you, sir, decided to base this on Targaryen lineage, the ruling dynasty for 300 years, so let’s go.

Obviously the daughter of the dynast (Aerys) comes before the great-grandson of the king from 50 years ago. Stannis is at least 3 generations removed from any claim to a Targaryen throne. Even in male primogeniture, the daughter of the dynast will always come before cousins/ uncles/ nephews/ any extended family. It’s why Matilda fought for her claim against her cousin, it’s why Mary I became Queen over Jane Grey and other male relatives, why Elizabeth became Queen over Philip II and Mary Queen of Scots and a bunch of male relatives, it’s why Mary II and Queen Anne both ruled, it’s why William of Orange only became King with the express permission of Anne herself who was the rightful heir. I could go on. I don’t know where this idea that Stannis has a better claim comes from cause it makes no sense. Female or not the child of the ruling monarch comes before extended family. Always. That extended family may contest it because they’re misogynists, but that doesn’t actually weaken the claim itself.

The same goes for Robert’s bastards but even more so as they are illegitimate, meaning they technically have no claim to anything at all until someone legitimises them. And by someone, I mean the monarch. Tommen will never do that and I don’t see any reason why any other claimants would either, unless it’s to put someone in charge of Storm’s End. To use another example, this is why Henry Fitzroy was never considered as a future king even as Henry VIII struggled endlessly for a son and both his daughters’ legitimacy was called into question. He was a bastard. End of story. They have less of a claim than Stannis, and Stannis has basically none. Besides, to make a claim to the throne that is weaker, you need a strong army. Robert’s bastards have none, Stannis is losing more of his every day, meanwhile Dany has the strongest army in the series. She has the strongest claim and the power to back it up.

Now, onto Aegon. Going off the law I’ve just explained, Aegon would come before Dany. There are a few problems in universe, however. For a start, Aegon is likely an imposter, and so would have no claim. See Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck as good examples of this sort of thing. The second is that Aerys (likely) disinherited Rhaegar and his children, passing over him in favour of Viserys as his heir.

When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish." - TWOIAF

Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents. - TWOIAF

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. - TWOIAF

The last passage is especially damning. If it was simply that Rhaegar died, his children would be next in line to the throne over his brother, as I have explained. But Viserys is clearly stated as Aerys’ “new heir”, meaning he passed over Aegon and Rhaenys, deposing them to put Viserys as next in line. Before anyone says this can’t be done/ doesn’t count, it does. Henry VIII deposed both Mary and Elizabeth after removing their mothers and it was completely valid/ recognised. It’s why people called them both “bastards” throughout their lives. He also had to undo that decree before he died, meaning they were both able to rule after Edward. If Henry himself hadn’t undone it, they never would have ruled. So, Aegon’s status as disinherited will stand, even if he is really Rhaegar’s son. Aegon now has an army, meaning he can back up his weak claim, but so does Dany. And the army doesn’t mean his claim is better, either.

Dany doesn’t need Dorne for her claim, only for extra support when backing up her very valid claim to the throne. As I have just explained to you, Dany is currently the person with the best claim to the throne who is not currently sitting on it. Besides, she didn’t “fuck up” anything with Quentyn. She accepted him into her court graciously and did all she could to keep his support, foster a relationship with him and Doran/ Dorne by extension, shy of calling of her own engagement which would have meant the deaths of all her people. Everything Quentyn did after that was because he wrongly felt he was letting his father down and was his own mistake entirely. None of it is on her.

In summary, Dany has the best claim and the power to back it up, Aegon (might) have second best claim (though it’s highly unlikely, in fact pretty much impossible as he was disinherited) with slightly less power to back it up and Stannis has one of the worst claims without the power to back it up. Hope you enjoyed your history lesson! Read the books next time and you could avoid embarrassing moments like this 😬🤗

#asoiaf #daenerys targaryen #daenerys meta #my meta #stannis baratheon #young griff #asoiaf meta #british history #succession

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agameoftragedy · 3 years

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I’ve been thinking of how good littlefinger is at playing the game and his only downfall being sansa and revealing his cards to her. But sansa is a legitimate daughter and known heir of a lord paramouncy. I know he’s going for kingship or even just north, riverlands and vale to win the game. But he got a good so called pawn in sansa, do you think he could’ve done it with someone like Mya or Edric (prob easier) if he had them in his custody? I can’t see him being so good at the game with mya

Arguably Littlefinger shouldn’t really even be good at the game if people took him seriously, but all the high nobles are too busy paying attention to the other high nobles to consider his actions in much detail.

I think the structure of power and influence in these settings is so rigid and yet intricate that changing who is in a situation changes so much about it. And what Littlefinger needs isn’t just empowering somebody, but doing so while keeping them his pawn. Because if he really wanted to work it with Mya or Edric, really all it takes is helping to out Cersei’s kids as bastards to remove nearly everyone ahead of them - not impossible Robert could legitimise Edric to have an heir be a child of his blood, and that’s it, but does Littlefinger retain powers?

I suppose if Littlefinger made sure to make himself central to the reveal, Robert could be so grateful that he lavishes Littlefinger with rewards perhaps taken from traitorous Lannisters (and/or their loyalists), and played skillfully enough Littlefinger might disempower others at court who knew but never let Robert know (Varys, possibly others).

But that’s something LIttlefinger could have done in canon and still didn’t, so why? I think the above is kind of too orderly for him, it’s like he wants to tear it down and rise from those ruins. And maybe it’s a specifically Sansa thing, but I think he has a deliberate tendency to want to isolate and manipulate his pawn - Edric Storm is not an easy one to isolate as an obvious contender for the throne. And I just don’t know if he’d be so motivated with Mya, his weird creepy obsession with Sansa as new-Cat/daughter-he-never-had may well have pulled things in directions he was never contemplating until she came to court. He may have been doing something entirely different right now otherwise.

So... Is it possible to play the game using Robert’s bastard kids? Yes. Could/would Littlefinger play the game using Robert’s bastard kids? I think possibly/probably not.

#asks #anon #asoiaf hypotheticals

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misseffie · 5 years

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3, 4, 11

Thank you!!

3. If you could revive one GoT character, who would it be and why?

There’s so many now... Most characters are dead lol. I feel like Margaery and Stannis were underutilized as characters, and even though I loved the scene with the Sept blowing up I wanted to further explore Margaery’s potential (I think she would’ve won “the game”).

4. When did you first get into GoT/ASoIAF?

I first watched the show when it came out about 8 years ago. I read the books soon after. I didn’t become a mega-fan until around season 6. The Battle of the Bastards and Sansa and Jon reuniting made me realize how emotionally invested I was in these characters.

11. What’s an unpopular GoT opinion you have?

I wanted Gendry to end up as King since he came back in season 7 (so before I was a hardcore Gendrya shipper I enjoyed this theory). I felt like all the other nobles underestimated him and the importance of his claim to the throne. It would’ve been kind of poetic considering how much he hated nobles. Also, it was Jon Arryn and Ned Stark discovering Gendry that led to the war of the five Kings in the first place. So it would tie things neatly.

I also like the fact that Gendry was legitimized and I know that a lot of Gendrya people didn’t like it. I actually hope that Gendry gets a similar ending in the book instead of Edric Storm *shrugs*

#bonesgadh

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killthebxy-archive · 6 years

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1. being bastard born in Westeros

let me start with a simple but crucial point: Westeros is a medieval society --- which means it is traditional and built on strong patriarchal foundations, for the most part. Westeros is a racist, sexist, ableist society. and, in Westeros, and especially among the highborn, it is very rare that you will marry for love. if you are highborn, you will marry someone of similar status based on some benefit that this alliance will bring to your parents/ family/ house. if you’re lucky, you will eventually learn to love your spouse, but that is not a requirement --- what is expected of you is to have strong sons (preferably, that the firstborn is a boy) and beautiful daughters to continue your legacy. and you are expected to fulfill this goal together with the lord husband/ lady wife so carefully picked for you.

what does being bastard born mean? simply put, it means your parents are not married. it means either you were conceived before your parents got married (either to each other or to another person), or that you were conceived through adultery (consensual or not). and, let’s be real, six of the seven kingdoms, Dorne being the exception, do not regard illegitimate children in a positive light. being bastard born, based on what i wrote before, means you were born from lust and/or from betrayal, and this, in this society, immediately implies you have bad blood. it immediately implies that a baby still in the mother’s womb is already expected to grow up to be wanton, treacherous, cunning, ambitious.

this may not seem obvious but, in a way, being a highborn bastard is more difficult than being a lowborn one. one the one hand, it is rare that the illegitimate child of a big (or even smaller) House of Westeros will be allowed to live with their family, or even to be acknowledged at all. for example, out of all the bastards Robert Baratheon fathered, only Edric Storm and Mya Stone are directly linked to his name. Ned Stark is a rare exception in this case, for raising Jon Snow as his own son. note: for the purpose of this meta, i am assuming what we know from book canon up until the end of ADWD: Jon is the child of Ned and an unknown woman. i will speak of Rhaegar Targaryen further on, but this is the assumption of this whole piece of text.

for this reason, highborn bastards are also seen as a much bigger threat. why? because it is common belief that they will try and steal what belongs to the legitimate children by birthright. again, because they are seen as inherently envious and treacherous. GRRM provides some tales throughout the books, of bloodshed between half-siblings for the sake of power, and Ramsay Snow/ Bolton emerges as prime example of such --- stopping at nothing to earn himself a legitimate name, first, and then the ruling of House Bolton + Winterfell.

2. Jon Snow as a bastard child

no surprises, everything i just mentioned is valid in Jon’s case. Catelyn Stark herself worries that Jon will be a threat to her children, and, for example, argues with Robb when it is his will to make Jon the new King in the North, should Robb himself fall in battle. and this is important to mention for two motives. one, because Cat doesn’t despise Jon for his personality or character traits or any possible flaws --- she despises him for the symbol he is. and we are presented with evidence that she resents herself for being this way, for being unable to love a motherless child, but the very negative connotation of Jon’s birth and everything it entails make it impossible for her to treat him differently. and it doesn’t help that Jon is always described as the spitting image of Ned Stark (or the Starks in general), while her own legitimate children (Arya being the exception) have 100% the Tully looks.

and, before i get to the second motive, let me point this out. have you wondered why Jon hates to be called Lord Snow, once he arrives at Castle Black? it may seem odd, because, objectively, it is a respectful title --- Jon is technically highborn, and Snow is his last name. however, the negative stigma of being bastard born is, exactly, why this title is both used and taken as mockery. because a bastard has no right to inherit anything --- therefore, has no right to be a lord unless legitimized. treating Jon as Lord Snow is actually incredibly cruel, because it is both throwing on his face something he can never have (i.e., Lord), and, at the same time, the reason for it (i.e., Snow, the name given to the bastards of the North). and this is so prevalent that it keeps happening even after Jon is elected to be lord commander, as we can clearly see in the discourse of Janos Slynt and Godry Farring, for example. even Ramsay, after becoming a Bolton, is still often described/ regarded under the light of his birth. being bastard born is something that accompanies you for life, almost always in a negative manner, and there is very little (if anything) you can do to distance your own identity from it. for the most part and for most people in Westeros, you don’t exist as Jon Snow --- you exist as Ned Stark’s bastard.

3. internalization of the stigma

everything above brings me to the core of this meta: the impact that being bastard born has on Jon’s identity/ personality/ psychological functioning. and, to start this, i could pick half a hundred quotes from Jon’s chapters, but i’ll pick one that particularly speaks to me:

they still think me a turncloak. that was a bitter draft to drink, but Jon could not blame them. he was a bastard, after all. everyone knew that bastards were wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust and deceit.

A Storm of Swords --- Blood and Gold, pp.171

this isn’t anyone talking about Jon; this isn’t Alliser Thorne of Janos Slynt or Cregan Karstark calling him the bastard son of a traitor --- this is Jon speaking of himself. this is Jon describing himself as a bastard and everything it entails, to the point where he cannot even bring himself to blame others for mistrusting him --- because it is to be expected, because it is his own fault for being bastard born. this isn’t the first time in the books such an appreciation is found, we can already see similar introspection in the first half of the first book. Jon has entirely internalized the stigma of being bastard born. now, from the ever-helpful Wikipedia:

social stigma: disapproval of (or discontent with) a person based on socially characteristic grounds that are perceived, and serve to distinguish them, from other members of a society.

internalization: involves the integration of attitudes, values, standards and the opinions of others into one's own identity or sense of self.

basically, what this means is that Jon sees himself, whilst a bastard, the same way society does. it means that he was taught what being bastard born means (all the negative connotations i wrote before), and he’s accepted this as being true in regards to himself. he seems himself as different, for being bastard born, and he sees himself as lesser. and this doesn’t happen at Castle Black, where he starts being mocked as Lord Snow. this has started before he was even born, because he’s not seen as a baby but as the proof that even the honorable Eddard Stark once screwed up, and this continued throughout his childhood and early teen years, when he was raised and educated like the rest of Ned’s children but, at the same time, was ever made to know his place and that he was different --- that he was below them. for example, how he’s not allowed to sit at the dais together with his family when King Robert’s court visits Winterfell, because such a thing could cause offense to the royal family. as curiosity, reminder that, in the books, this is exactly the reason Jon gives to Mance Rayder to convince him that he was a desertor: did you see where i was sitting, Mance?

what is this impact on Jon’s functioning then? first and foremost, it means he tends to see himself in a negative regard. during his first chapters, like when he firstly arrives at Castle Black, he tries to externalize this burden. he’s cocky and he’s immature and he acts on his short temper and makes every other new recruit hate him. why? because he so much wants to prove (to them, to Benjen Stark, to the Night’s Watch as a whole, to himself) that he’s better than everyone else --- that he’s better than his symbol as a bastard, that he’s better than what everyone expects of him. we don’t really get a chapter where Jon tells Benjen (or anyone) why he wants to take the black --- by the time they talk, Jon has already made up his mind. therefore, this bit is a headcanon on my part, but i don’t think i’m wrong in assuming that Jon wanted to join the Night’s Watch because he didn’t have anything else left for his future. he’d never have a right to Winterfell, and the most he could ever hope to inherit was, maybe, some little keep somewhere in the North, and to defend it under Robb’s name. the Watch gave him at least an opportunity to rise above his bastard status, and, when he arrives there and keeps being treated the same, that’s when he snaps and starts literally bullying everyone else for it.

Donal Noye has a crucial role in Jon’s change, and he is also the underlying tone of the whole kill the boy and let the man be born --- but this is subject for another meta, and i will not touch it here. basically, once he starts treating the Night’s Watch as his new family/ home, Jon’s negative regard of himself slowly and gradually stops being directed to the outside, and starts being directed to the inside --- to his own self. this becomes exponential after Ygritte’s death (which he blames himself for, not exactly for being bastard born, but he still does and this adds up), and even more so after he’s elected lord commander. and, as i like to say, when you look at AGOT Jon and ADWD Jon, you see two different persons. lord commander Jon forces himself to be guarded and isolated, for the sake of better leading his men, and he suffers a lot with insecurities and self-doubt --- because, let’s be real, he’s a 16 year old boy suddenly charged with responsibility to guide nineteen castles and all the men and women inhabiting them. we often see Jon wondering what Ned would have done in his stead, and even more often we see him worrying if he’s making the right decision --- but having to push through, anyway, because winter is almost upon them and he doesn’t have time to sulk.

and what does being bastard born have to do with this? it is, exactly, the fact that Jon, simply put, believes he’s a bad person because he’s a bastard --- and how he’s come from trying to fight against it, literally fight, to accepting it and letting it subconsciously become his default mode of functioning. Jon is a perfectionist and very, very hardworking, because he knows there’s no other way for him to be. let it be known that both Jon and i love Robb beyond any words, but Robb is the heir --- whenever Robb makes a mistake, that’s okay because everyone knows he’s honorable and righteous like his father, so it’s human to make mistakes. when Jon Snow makes a mistake, it is because of his bad blood and because he’s the bastard son of a traitor, and what else could you expect. this is why none of the Stark children can ever understand what being a Snow entails, even Arya who ever fought for the sake of her brother being treated as an equal. Jon lives on the edge, constantly, and he’s well aware he’s got no room to make mistakes.

this is why he’s always so sullen, this is why he takes apparently harmless jokes very personally, this is why he has a hard time believing in praise offered to him. because his entire identity is built on being inherently less than most others, even before his birth, which leads him to always having to push his limits and be perfect --- being good isn’t enough for him, he cannot allow himself the luxury of making a bad decision --- and this is tenfold when he’s in a position of leadership, be it as lord commander or, in show canon, King in the North. which, non-surprisingly, is extremely tiring and always has him under tension. and this is also why he tends to draw to himself the guilt over matters that aren’t even directly under his control, and why his biggest fear is the fear of failure. because, all his life, Jon Snow wanted to be Jon Stark --- wanted to prove to his father, and then to everyone else, that he was more than a negative symbol, and worthy of his/their trust and acknowledgment. failing, even something as silly as sending a raven during the night when he was supposed to send it during the morning, means he’s not worthy of his father’s name; it means that the world is right, and that he’s no more than his bad blood. needless to say, all of this is why Jon is so adamantly against fathering bastards of his own --- because he would never want a son/daughter to have to carry the burden he’s carried for his entire life.

as a conclusion, this is also why, in this blog, the annulment of Rhaegar’s and Elia’s marriage will never be accepted. it goes without saying that Elia deserved so much better, but the point of this meta is that being bastard born is the foundation of Jon’s identity, and it has impacted his story and functioning in ways that cannot be erased. suddenly making him Aegon Targaryen 2.0. for the sake of sitting his fine ass on the Iron Throne does NOT change his past and does NOT change who he is. therefore, in my personal portrayal of Jon Snow, even in purely show-based threads and despite what season 8 may throw at us, he will always be bastard born --- Ned’s bastard or Rhaegar’s bastard, it makes no difference. because the Jon i love and write doesn’t need to be of legitimate blood to matter and to be valid, nor will i ever completely erase and disregard the circumstances that made/ make him who he is.

#long post #𝚖𝚎𝚝𝚊 𝚝𝚊𝚐 ❄️ᵗʰᵉ ᶜʳᵒʷ ᶤˢ ᵗʰᵉ ʳᵃᵛᵉᶰˢ ᵖᵒᵒʳ ᶜᵒᵘˢᶤᶰ #i finally wrote this #and now i can go cry in the corner over how much i love this boy

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him-e · 7 years

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Hi again~ I've got three questions if that's alright? =>How do you feel of Catelyn's dislike of & treatment of Jon?What is your opinion on Renly and his decision to crown himself rather than stand with Stannis?What do you think of Edmure Tully and hoe Robb & Blackfish blamed him for their plan (that they never bother informing him of) failing and how they convinced him to marry to fix Robb's on mistake? I fee like Edmure was treated unfairly.

1) How do you feel of Catelyn’s dislike of & treatment of Jon? I like Catelyn, but I am critical of her behavior in this respect.

On the one hand I have sympathy for her—society makes her dependent on her husband and places most of her worth as a human being on her capacity to birth trueborn children, so to an extent I get why she cannot bring herself to openly confront ned about it, and why she has so much anxiety over jon “stealing” her children’s birthright (also, as a woman, as someone who’s not a mother and feels occasionally the pressure to become one, I rage against the idea that a woman “must” feel a motherly instinct by default regardless of circumstances, and if she doesn’t then she is a bad person). On the other hand, Catelyn’s treatment of Jon is objectively inexcusable. It’s not limited to not being able to feel affection for the kid, it’s downright dehumanizing (she refuses to call him by his name, makes sure he knows he’s unwanted there, makes him literally scared of her, she basically inflicts all the damage she can get away with under Ned’s nose). Catelyn had every right to be pissed at Ned for forcing his bastard on her without an explanation, but she should have never put the blame on JON. Jon was a child, had no responsibility in the choices any of the adults made, and deserved to be raised in a healthy, loving environment just as much as his siblings did, end of the story.

2) What is your opinion on Renly and his decision to crown himself rather than stand with Stannis? Extremely poor. Renly had zero legitimate reasons to proclaim himself as king. What he did was an arrogant, selfish move based on an “I’m the stronger and cooler one with the bigger army” logic that, if successful, could have set a TERRIBLE precedent for the realm.

3) What do you think of Edmure Tully and how Robb & Blackfish blamed him for their plan? Edmure was given specific orders by his king (who didn’t owe him an explanation), and decided to override them to prove himself as a bold leader. But this is war, coordination is crucial, and Martin immediately frames Edmure’s decision as shortsighted and doomed to fail from every perspective (a sympathetic but bad motivation; a poor judgment of people; a disregard for Catelyn’s attempts to make him reason; a bad track record on the battlefield). I like Edmure, and I think his desire to prove himself was genuine and not motivated by malice or selfishness, but he made a mistake. (more details on this post)

Also! Do you think it ever occurred to Tywin that having Cersei marry Loris could backfire? Like if she had done so and given birth to a child from him with dark hair, wouldn’t that just prove that her children weren’t Robert’s with how dark hair is such a strong trait in the family?You’d think he’d try marrying her to a blond haired man just in case.

Cersei x Loras is show canon only, in the books Loras joins the Kingsguard and Tywin considers various candidates:

“So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander,” Lord Tywin told his daughter. “You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you. […] You will marry and you will breed. Every child you birth makes Stannis more a liar. […] I have considered the Redwyne twins, Theon Greyjoy, Quentyn Martell, and a number of others. But our alliance with Highgarden was the sword that broke Stannis. It should be tempered and made stronger. Ser Loras has taken the white and Ser Garlan is wed to one of the Fossoways, but there remains the eldest son, the boy they scheme to wed to Sansa Stark.“

the *chosen one* is Willas, but Olenna nixes it so there’s never an actual betrothal, though Tywin remains determined until the end to find another husband for his daughter. But, book and show canon alike, he is clearly not concerned about Cersei possibly having babies with different hair color this time around, because in his mind the twincest simply doesn’t exist. He’s in deep denial—his children? His golden twins? No fucking way, it’s too humiliating, Stannis is a liar and a fraud, it must be. (whether he intimately, or on some subconscious level, knew it to be true, we will never know because we don’t have his pov.) He’s not thinking rationally, as proven by his belief that if he gets to make Cersei behave and she pops out more children, the rumors will magically go away. At any rate, history is made by winners, and Tywin is determined to win this game. Once they’ve won, if he says that the incest is false, then the incest is false.

keep also in mind that the hair color thing is how Jon Arryn first and Ned later came to solve the puzzle, not actual evidence of the incest (which can’t be proven for sure, unless one of the parts involved confesses it). Neither it was the source of the rumor or the reason it spread like wildfire—prior to Jon & Ned’s investigation nobody seemed to find the kids’ hair color suspicious at all, and it took Ned an examination of the entire Baratheon/Lannister genealogy AND an offhand but enlightening remark by Sansa to finally see the truth. Yes, Stannis planned to use Edric Storm as “proof” that Robert’s true children look a lot like Robert himself, but this is an age when there are no pictures, photographs, or accurate visual media to spread information with, and MOST people have no idea how the royal family looks like, at all. Even Stannis admitted that showing Edric Storm to each and every person in the realm was not feasible.

Cersei having a dark haired child from a man who isn’t Robert (or even a Baratheon) would be little proof in the eyes of people who have no concept of genetics and (especially the nobleborn) understand that claiming illegitimacy on the only basis of physical resemblance or lack thereof is a slippery slope. In two years, everybody could claim that (x) lord’s son and heir isn’t trueborn because he looks nothing like his father! In other words, hair color can’t be used consistently as factual evidence of adultery.

#pips69 #asks #got asks #got asks for ts #got for ts #////#lannisters**#catelyn**#edmure #renly

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