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starfxckersinc · 4 years

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You don't have to answer this if you don't want to but what's up with the Courtney Love controversy? Why are people accusing her of manipulation or whatever? I'm totally new to this discussion

hey darling!! no worries, I love discussing Kurt & Court bc theyre my surrogate parents and they emotionally raised me when I had a difficult relationship w my Mom and Dad, plus I’m named after Kurt and he’s part of the reason I realized my ~gender~, so needless to say I have a surplus of information on them. Plus their music fucks. anyways, this is gonna be a masterpost-

my credentials(sources I have taken my information and formed my opinion on Kurt & Court’s relationship from if u need to look into them):

-Heavier Than Heaven(Book by Charles Cross, authorized by Kurt’s estate. Charles Cross is a well known grunge/music historian and has literally devoted his life to researching and writing rockstar biographies, including several on Nirvana. One of my favorite books ever.)

- Montage Of Heck(Documentary on Kurt’s life. Produced by his daughter, Frances. I have some heavy criticisms of this film and of the interviews in it, but it does have some reflections on Kurt and Courtney’s relationship that I think are important.)

- Hit So Hard(a documentary on Hole’s drummer, Patty Schemel. Minor discussions of Kurt and Kurt and Courtney.)

- Verse Chorus Verse(Fan-made documentary series on Kurt’s life, widely regarded by Nirvana fans the most in depth play-by-play biography that exists- and it’s free on YouTube, which is lit.)

sources I don’t pull from, but many younger Nirvana fans do(the people who buy into the conspiracies generally):

Kurt and Courtney- A documentary made in the late 90’s under the guise of biography, but is actually about the conspiracy theory that Courtney killed Kurt. I saw it when I was a new fan and I literally laughed out loud from how apeshit it was.

Soaked In Bleach- ‘Biopic’ about Courtney killing Kurt. I haven’t seen it but straight men who think Courtney is ugly take it more seriously than the Bible. Very little truth ever goes into these theories, besides maybe names and dates.

Anything Hank Harrison(Courtney’s father) has to say- He wrote a book on the subject. He also gave her acid and lost custody of her when she was three years old. He’s a shit parent and I doubt he’s actually seen his daughter since the 80’s.

Anything Buzz Osborne(Kurt’s friend, singer for the Melvins, a band Kurt looked up to in Montesano) says- I think Buzz’s opinion is taken way too seriously by a lot of the fan base, I read an interview of his criticizing Montage Of Heck because Kurt ‘didn’t really have a stomach disease’ and was just lying about it to get high, and also about how he hated having to see Courtney naked, and made a good long point about how disgusting her body is. IOn top of all that(none of which really has to do with critiquing the film...?), he mocked Kurt and called him a loser for committing suicide. I don’t care what your opinion on his stomach, his wife, or his music is, that shit is callous and idiotic, but totally reflective of the 70’s and 80’s mentality regarding the mentally ill. He’s part of the legion of pretentious punk dudes who *kind of* knew Kurt, who think Courtney’s the one who ‘corrupted’ him, which brings me around to answering your question.

So, there’s this idea regarding Kurt and Courtney’s relationship, which is pretty similar to the one surrounding Sid and Nancy’s(or at least used to.) Courtney is the whiny, annoying, petulant bitch who attached herself to the first trophy she could find, and through her terrible manipulative personality kept him with her and kept him from getting better. In this mode of thinking, She’s also the person who ‘started’ him on drugs, and in a few people’s eyes, the person who ‘forced’ him to have Frances.

The reality of the situation, as I see it, as someone who’s gone to pretty decent lengths to inform themselves on the subject, is that Kurt and Courtney’s relationship was toxic: But the toxicity was mutual. This doesn’t mean they were a “problematic” couple, or that they were abusing each other, or even that either one of them was ‘evil’, it means that they fell deeply in love as young trauma survivors with substance abuse issues and huge ambitions. That’s a lot to put on any relationship and it’s a lot to talk about, so I’m gonna split this into categories of complaints that you’ll hear pretty routinely as a new Nirvana/Hole fan.

1. “She got him into drugs!”

Courtney started on heroin in the late 80’s in L.A., when she was still playing with Sugar Baby Doll(her band with Jennifer Finch and Kat Bjelland). Kurt, as said in Heavier Than Heaven, tried heroin for the first time around 1988-1989(I don’t remember exactly.) At the time, he was still living with(though I don’t believe they were still dating) Tracy Marander. Because he was destitute, he didn’t have enough money to start forming an actual habit until Nevermind started gaining speed, and by the time he and Courtney started dating(they met a couple of times and phoned a couple of times before cementing a relationship) he had been taking it for a while. That’s the thing I think people look over when it comes to Kurt- He was embarrassed about his addiction and he hated the physical side effects, but he loved heroin.

Courtney says in Montage Of Heck that she had both tried and kicked heroin by the time she met Kurt, but I think the Heavier Than Heaven description is probably more accurate: That she did heroin socially, and her addiction worsened after the two of them began living together because Kurt was(in her own words) ‘obsessed with oblivion.’ She also said in Montage Of Heck that his dream was to ‘Get to three million dollars and become a junkie.’ She’s stated several times that her drug problems came out of a need for ‘comfort’, and Kurt was into getting so fucked he couldn’t do anything else(also confirmed by his friend, Dylan Carlson, who was also into heroin and did it with him often.)

On top of that, Courtney was the one who orchestrated interventions for Kurt, went through the process of reviving him when he’d overdosed, and broke his syringes/scared off his dealers to try and keep drugs away from him as much as possible. At one point, she even made a rule that no drugs were to be done in the house- So he started renting motel rooms and doing them there. It was she who was the head of his final intervention before he went missing.

If anything, Courtney is the person who tried her hardest to keep drugs away from both of them. Considering how much people still talk about her doing heroin while pregnant(which occurred very early on before she was aware of her condition), Kurt is the person who struggled the most to stay off drugs during her pregnancy and after Frances’ birth, even going so far as to hide in the bathroom from her while she was struggling with morning sickness so she wouldn’t know he was getting high.

2. “She manipulated him into dating her/marrying her!”

Here’s the thing about Courtney; She is an enigmatic, entertaining, talented, maternal individual. Here’s the thing about Kurt; He’s a shy, quiet, non-confrontational guy with mommy issues. There’s been a lot of discussion on how Courtney was ‘obsessed’ with Kurt, and how she wouldn’t rest until she pinned him down: That’s untrue, or at least it reads less like crazy-bitch-steals-rock-god and more like cute-singer-has-crush-on-fellow-cute-singer. She was really into him, but when she met him she was still dating Billy Corgan, which deterred her from pursuing him until that relationship(basically) dissolved. When Kurt met her, he had just gotten out of a relationship with Tobi Vail, which most likely fell apart because she refused to be what Tracy Marander had been for him. She wasn’t interested in caring for him and she wasn’t interested in a full-time monogamous relationship. She was working too hard at her own career and was way too involved in the burgeoning riot grrrl movement to worry about looking after Kurt Cobain. That just wasn’t going to work for him.

Kurt was a big believer in the nuclear family model, he was very monogamous, and besides that he lacked the ability to physically take care of himself. If he wasn’t living with a partner who would clean up the house and remind him to wash his hair, it just didn’t happen. He was chronically ill, depressed, and he’d spent most of his adolescence AWOL from anyone who would actually raise him, so Tobi’s rejection deeply hurt him for a number of reasons- While Courtney, the opposite of Tobi in a few key ways, was exactly what he wanted. On top of looking like the archetypical punk girl, “I was attracted to her because she looked like Nancy Spungen,” she had a maternal streak (In Montage Of Heck, when he’s found sitting beside her while she cuts his hair, and, typical for people living with Kurt, mentions that she cleans the house because ‘nobody else fuckin does.’) Early on in their relationship, Kurt had a meltdown and begged Courtney to come to his apartment. She did, and looked after him the rest of the night, a pattern which would become common for them, and was stated by her half sister to be the ‘original strain on the relationship.’

Besides her mothering elements, Courtney was brassy and loud, and her presence allowed him to be less introverted and freer with himself. She was an ambitious young musician who shared a similar childhood to him, and had the same yearning for a safe home life that he did. She was well-read and artistic, and introduced him to the literary side of music creation, which he hadn’t explored yet. After spending a night on the phone with her, he went around telling everybody she was ‘the coolest girl in the world,’ and broke off another burgeoning relationship with Mary Lou Lord on live TV after spending the night with her. The famous quote, “Courtney Love is the best fuck in the world.” is in fact real. And yeah, he could’ve handled that one better.

The attraction was mutual, and I find it hard to believe that Kurt was ever forced into anything romantic with her based on how well she suited his tastes.

3. “She used him for his fame/money!”

As stated above, Courtney was attracted to Kurt before Nevermind was even recorded, and if she wanted to marry a famous dude right out the gate, at the time they met there were plenty of people who were way more famous than Kurt. In Heavier Than Heaven she mentions really liking their song “Dive,” and later in life she mentioned hearing “Sliver” and being impressed with Kurt’s writing abilities. Both of those songs were released a solid two years before Nevermind. She was interested in Kurt because he was cute and talented and she was savvy in the music scene, meaning that she kept up with underground bands.

Now, a point of contention between Kurt & Courtney was their different attitudes towards fame. That is entirely true. Courtney wanted to be famous, enjoyed celebrity, loved attention, and could handle touring, press, and the craziness of success. She was very charismatic, very physically strong, and let’s face it, definitely an attention whore. Kurt liked being praised, he liked being successful, and he definitely had a thing for attention- But he hated pressure, he had inferiority issues, he didn’t know how to handle his life being pried into all the time, and he wasn’t strong enough to do massive tours. Courtney just didn’t understand that, which is pretty common if someone doesn’t share your same mental illness/physical illness: Touring hurt Kurt’s stomach, it worsened his anxiety and emotional instability, it wore his body out, it didn’t agree with him. He loved playing live but couldn’t handle the mania or the travelling, meaning he didn’t mind blowing off huge tours that would bring in loads of money. Courtney, who did feel envious and intimidated regarding his success, would get angry at him for that- She didn’t want him to blow off massive paychecks and press coverage because it’s not what she would’ve done. I definitely side with Kurt on this, nothing is more frightening and frustrating than people trying to force you to do things you can’t handle health-wise. Courtney, being naturally business-oriented, was also aware of how things appeared to the public, and definitely cared about their image more than Kurt did- One of their fights revolved around her nagging him about how important the “Heart-Shaped Box” music video would be for him, and how he should look good. He reacted by stubbing out a cigarette on his forehead and saying, “Do I look fucking good enough for you now?”

So yeah, Courtney, like a lot of people in Kurt’s life, was all about furthering his career and success. A lot of people read that as her being money-hungry or manipulative, in my opinion it’s just a natural response from a person who’s spent their whole life trying to be a success and wouldn’t really get there until 1994. I think some of it was envy and I think some of it was her using him a little vicariously, neither of which are healthy but neither of which are malicious, either. She wanted to be a rockstar, she was ready to be a rockstar, she wasn’t; He thought he’d wanted to be a rockstar, he didn’t really want to, he was.

4. “She emotionally abused him!”

I hate to say this because I love Kurt so much but, as someone who’s been through a codependent relationship where they were bailing water out of a sinking boat, Kurt’s behavior throughout their marriage set off way more red flags for me than Courtney’s did. I don’t think he was actually abusive, but I do think he was a little too underdeveloped and unresolved to be married to someone. He had to grow up slower than everyone else because he missed out on having concrete mature influences, which Courtney did as well, and like I said earlier I think a lot of their problems came through a lack of adult communication skills. Both of them were really jealous people: Courtney couldn’t stand Kurt talking about Mary Lou Lord or Tobi Vail, Kurt was completely convinced that Courtney was cheating on him with Billy Corgan(even going so far as to talk to their lawyer about a divorce shortly before he died.) This was the catalyst for a lot of mind games and unnecessary drama, especially coming from Kurt.

Kurt couldn’t handle conflict. He was really passive aggressive, and would do things to purposely piss Courtney off or communicate to her that he was displeased. While she was trying to stay clean he would declare that he was going to do drugs in the apartment, when she started talking to a psychic to help her with her problems he mocked her and put her down, when she staged his final intervention his entire argument against rehab was that she was just as ‘fucked up’ as he was(she had already agreed to go into rehab, though whether he was aware of this or not I’m not sure.) He made his first suicide attempt by overdosing on Rohypnol on their wedding anniversary because she took some pills and fell asleep and he decided that meant she wasn’t interested in him anymore. I’m not arguing that that’s an irrational response to your partner getting stoned and falling asleep, especially when he’d apparently set the night up to be as romantic as possible, but the overdose put him in a coma and sent Courtney into hysterics.

Her mental health began to decline due to paranoia that he’d end up dead, and her weight dropped due to the added stress. As someone who’s been through a pretty similar situation to that and exhibited the same symptoms, I can tell you that it is never okay to use a suicide attempt to deal with a perceived injustice from your partner. By this time, Kurt was facing either getting clean or dying, and his behavior was very depressed and erratic, so there are explanations for the way he was acting and I don’t think he was trying to manipulate her with a threat. Despite my understanding of that, there is nothing more exhausting than being the caretaker of someone who is hellbent on never getting better. I can’t imagine being the caretaker of someone who won’t stop until they’re dead, and I do think at that point it would’ve been better for them to separate.

But that isn’t to say Courtney wasn’t toxic herself, I’m not trying to paint a wholly negative image of Kurt here. I’m merely trying to stand in the way of Nirvana fanboys who have no grasp on the more sickly sides of his personality, and give Court a bit of a break. Definitely, she struggled with her jealousy: As stated, she never wanted his ex girlfriends mentioned around her and would tear them apart if they were. She was ambitious and career driven, which eroded a lot of her platonic relationships/working relationships as well her marriage to Kurt. She was one of the people who was pushing him to recover in time to play Lollapalooza, and she was one of the people who pushed him into his last stunted tour before his death. She weaponized his relationship with Frances in ways that I and most people agree are gross: She told him he should be playing massive gigs to support his daughter(though their medical and legal bills were big they were hardly poverty stricken), and admitted in an interview later that she called him in rehab once to tell him he’d dropped Frances on her head(She mentioned during this that Frances was wearing a furry hood, and that he didn’t hurt her. In my opinion he was doing his best by even trying rehab again, and that he was already so worried that he was a terrible father that it was just cruel to make him feel worse.)

She has a tendency to be self-obsessed, and to put her own self interest before people she cares about, even if she regrets it later. She struggles herself with mental illness and addiction, both of which tend to give a person poor judgment regarding the people they care about.

Once again, Courtney and Kurt weren’t a healthy couple, but it wasn’t because they were evil or abusive towards one another. They cared for each other deeply, they had a very pure devotion. Underlying all this nastiness were two people who prayed together, wrote together, fantasized about a Valentine’s Day wedding, and faxed each other R-rated love letters like modern versions of James Joyce and Nora Barnacle. During one of his more successful stints in rehab, Kurt wrote Courtney love letters every night(though he did decorate them with blood, wax, and semen.)

They had some serious therapy they needed to attend, the both of them. But 90% of these demonizations of Courtney are either untrue or blown out of proportion.

#aberdeen spoken word #ik this runs on so much but i love talking abt this shit and i didnt #want to spend tomorrow editing bc i have other shit i need to do so #have a basically unedited essay on my parents fndndfn

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paene-umbra · 5 years

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i accidentally deleted the anon for this and i have no idea how to get it back BUT somebody asked me to answer all the questions on the ask meme

END OF THE YEAR ASKS FOR 2018:

(disclaimer: this is going to be so sappy and emotional because I did so many amazing things this past year that I am so incredibly proud of and there will definitely be too much information shared but I don’t care! I can do what I want!)

1. what is one thing you’re very proud of having done this year?

- in 2018 I am proud of cutting my father mostly out of my life. he was the source of so much pain and anxiety and trauma and cutting him out has lifted a huge weight off my shoulders and kickstarted my healing.

2. what is one thing you feel you could have done better?

- I could have done better dealing with friendships. I was so incredibly stressed out for a long time and I let my frustration bleed into my relationship to the point where being around friends and groups was too emotionally draining. I dropped a lot of friends that deserved better and in 2019 I plan on rekindling relationships and giving my friends as much love as they deserve.

3. what do you hope to do better next year?

- since it is already 2019 (whoops) I have a lot of resolutions that I am planning on implementing this year. I am going to put in more effort towards maintaining my mental health while also balancing my classes, work, and friends. I want to get close again to the people I used to be close to.

4. what was something scary you faced and overcame this year?

- in 2018 I started to address a lot of the problems that were contributing to my poor mental health. I began really looking into why I was so afraid of real emotional connection with other people and trying to understand the blockages that were holding me back from being the best version of myself. for the very first time I was able to confront the fact that I have forcing myself to suffer in silence for the sake of my appearance and reputation. for the longest time, I could not stand the possibility of anyone knowing that I was hurting so much because that would have meant admitting that I was being hurt by people who loved me, so I prioritized the way that they felt instead of myself. I tried so hard to pretend that I was stable and well-adjusted because it was easier than confronting the way I let people treat me and all of the hard work that I would have to do to try to heal from my pain. I always thought I had to hide the bad parts of me to be the perfect daughter but hiding something like mental illness doesn’t make the pain magically go away. I’m not a lesser person for being mentally ill. I deserve to be happy and to get the help that I need, and it is not my job anymore to coddle the feelings of the people who hurt me. it was terrifying to admit that I was completely broken for so many years, but I am endlessly proud of finally being able to acknowledge that and start putting myself back together.

5. what did you think would be scary and then was not?

- I thought that speaking in front of crowds was terrifying in theory but after actually having to do it several times for my job, I realized that I have important things to educate people about and that speaking in large groups is the best way to teach them, so being afraid does not help my cause.

6. do you feel like you grew in some way this year? why?

- hell yeah I grew in 2018. I grew enough to be able to put myself before others, to not be afraid of rejection, to push for better treatment, to drop those who hold me back or don’t deserve me, etc…

7. are there people you credit with this growth? who?

- yes, I think that some people helped me to grow. first, I think all the people who hurt me are deserving of the credit towards me developing the strength I needed to drop their negative asses. I also need to give SO MUCH CREDIT to my wonderful boyfriend for showing me what a real man is like and forcing me to deal with everything head-on instead of letting life steamroll me. he is miles ahead of me when it comes to self care but he supports the little steps that I am able to take and he is responsible for so much because of how he lifts me up and encourages me to put in the work. he believes in me and knows that I can and will be better and he has been willing to stay with me as I deal with my issues.

8. what is one piece of advice you’d give other people?

- I think I would tell people that giving up doesn’t fix anything. nothing is solved by letting life overtake you. pushing through when you’re barely keeping your head above water is the hardest thing that you can do. it does not always pay off immediately and sometimes it feels so pointless to keep swimming when it looks like there is water for miles and miles and miles but there is always eventually going to be land. you just have to find it, and I know you can.

9. what was the nicest thing someone did for you?

- his one is hard because my memory is not the best. I can’t think of anything specific but I’m sure that lots of people did lots of nice things for me.

10. who inspires you? why?

- my little inspires me. from the moment she joined my sorority I knew she was special, and as I got to know her and fall in love with her personality, I got so impressed with her and where she is in life in spite of all that has happened to her.

11. what are your main sources of inspiration? why?

- my inspiration mostly comes from people and hearing about the incredible things that some humans have done. hearing about the strength of other people makes me want to be strong.

12. what inspires you more: words, pictures, or music?

- music, for sure. there are so many amazing songs that spark my interest and provoke my thoughts.

13. what scares you, creatively?

- I am not really very creative at all. I think what stopped me from being creative is my fear of rejection. I was so terrified that people would hate me for what I wrote or drew or said that I kept it all to myself and let my creativity die out. maybe someday I will work on rekindling the creative ability, but it is not at the top of my list.

14. what did you enjoy working on most this year?

- my fish! owning bettas gave me something to look forward to doing and gave me an outlet to direct my focus and frustration through. any time I was having a hard day I knew I could look at my lil fishy boys and put my restlessness into caring for them and making sure that they were doing really well.

15. what did you have the most fun doing?

- the most fun I had in 2018 year probably came from being able to live with my roommate/soulmate again this semester. we have had our ups and downs but I love her so much and she is my other half, definitely. she brings out a whole new side of me that lets me be silly and goofy and myself around her.

16. what did you have the least fun doing?

- the least amount of fun in 2018 most likely came from the introspection that I had to do to contribute to my self-care. I did not enjoy the work it took, but I am pleased with the outcome of recognizing what needs to be changed and actually getting to make myself better and happier.

17. what is the best compliment you’ve gotten? why?

- I was recently told “your confidence, happiness, and strength has always inspired me! you’re an incredible human and I’m so thankful to be able to know you” and that was so incredible to hear because I don’t often think about the impact that I have on other people. I never thought I was important enough to influence another person’s life, let alone contribute to making it better in any way. I think it is really nice to know that even when I am struggling, I have the ability to positively impact others.

18. what is the best compliment anyone could ever give you?

- the best compliment would probably be something about how they have seen me grow throughout my years and continuously improve. I am not the best at keeping friends for more than a couple years at a time, so I don’t know if I will ever hear that one.

19. what do you wish people commented on more?

- about me??? I don’t know. I don’t really like other people talking about me lmao but I guess I like hearing people’s first impressions of me and how they differ from how I actually am. those are always fun to learn about.

20. what do you feel is the most underrated thing you have done? why?

- during my high school years, I played therapist A LOT to so many people. I put so much emotional labor into listening to other people and helping them figure out problems or just giving them a shoulder to cry on. rarely was this ever returned by those people, so I felt really used a lot of the time but honestly if I had to do it all over again I wouldn’t change a thing because I want to help people feel better.

21. name (and reblog) at least three things you’ve made this year that you’re proudest of.

- sorry, this one isn’t applicable to me. I don’t really make things or post them to tumblr.

22. what are your goals for next year?

- I plan to stop telling people things that aren’t any of their business. I spent a lot of time keeping everything to myself and when I finally started getting friends I felt like I had to tell them everything about me and my life to keep them interested, but that isn’t true. I need to learn how to keep some things private when they need to be.

I want to rekindle a lot of friendships that I messed up in 2018. I let a lot of people fade out of my life when I should not have.

I want to go to THERAPY!! I want to talk to professionals who can help me structure my path of healing!!!

I want to get more comfortable with the body I’m in. that means wearing less makeup, using fewer snapchat filters and other photo editing techniques, and judging myself less when I wear clothes that maybe aren’t the most flattering. it is okay to be ugly and I am not worth less for not being attractive. I want to stretch more and maybe get into a routine of exercising every now and then to feel better instead of to lose weight. I want to eat healthier and drink more water for my health instead of for the purpose of becoming skinny.

I want to make an effort to be more outgoing and get more involved in my sorority and with my Greek life.

23. name three things you like about yourself – and name one think you like about the person you reblogged this from.

I like my irises! my brown eyes are beautiful and unique no matter what anyone says. My eyes have rings like trees and uneven colors throughout. they are beautiful! I like how soft my hair is and I also like the shape of my lips.

something I like about the person I reblogged this ask from, @makingoutisgreat, is how strong and confident she seems. she is beautiful and she knows it and is not afraid to show it off. it is very inspiring.

#ask meme #long post #personal #laney rants #ask and ye shall recieve

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nyxelestia · 7 years

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You're basically saying that TW stole a bunch of tropes commonly used by Stereks in their romantic Sterek fics, and in the next breath blaming Sterek fans for leaving when it became evident tptb had no intention of exploring their relationship. Viewers have no obligation to continue watching a show they feel no attachment to, and contrary to Posey's statement, I don't think there is any right or wrong reason to watch a show. You also say that the baiting/encouragement by actors, tptb etc 1/-

was benign and innocuous, as they were only doing their job. You say that Stydia and Scallison was hyped as well. Sterek was multitudinously bigger, which was reflected by the hyping of it and the many articles written about it in mainstream media. You then blame Sterek fans for buying into it, which OK, I guess we were all supposed to be savvy enough to realize it was all for funsies. I disagree with the notion that it’s the job of the cast and crew to tease a queer ship that they have no 2/-

make canon, just because fans enjoy it. The honest thing would have been to say something along the line of “we see you dig Sterek, that’s great! It’s not going canon but we support your creativity”. You see basis for Scerek in canon, which awesome. Write all the fics about them. Don’t however discredit the vast number of people who did see canon basis for Sterek. Not everyone has been fooled by corrupted gifsets. As for the clusterfuck that is the bi-baiting of Stiles. That’s just ugly. ¾

They baited and baited his bisexuality, whilst being adamant of not ever explicitly stating it. I think the fact that the writers felt compelled to get Stiles a gf, is the main warning sign of their incompetence. “Erica’s going to be girlfriend material. Gage leaves. Oh shit, we have to bring in another girl. YES, an as of yet completely forgotten Hale girl! Adelaide leaves. Desperation grows. AH, dub-con sex between two mentally ill teens in an institution!”. Sterek fans are not at fault here.

Ever seen that gifset about “when Stiles was being protective of Derek” when Chris was threatening him and Jackson in the last episode of Season 1? Derek was never mentioned in that scene, and Stiles was talking about Scott and Kate. // Just a friendly reminder that Derek was in fact mentioned in that scene. STILES: “Would you prefer I locked him in the basement and burned the whole house down around him?” … “Oh right, Derek said you guys had a code. Guess no one ever breaks it.” -Transcript

Posey has always referred to TW as “his own show” - ex: the cast interview with Cody C. and Dylan Sprayerry in which Posey states that shipping non canon pairing doesn’t make any sense and it’s incredibly offensive and disrespectful towards the writer, the producers and everyone involved in “his show” - and he also became a producer, so… Why did Posey never address what HIS show have done to Arden/Kira? He simply said that “Scott doesn’t need a love interest in order to be interesting” instead

You are picking and choosing from interviews to supplement your agenda.

TPTB aren’t a monolith, either - they are a group of writers, producers, and actors who all have to answer to someone else (MTV), even Jeff Davis. Collectively, have their own agenda, their own plans for the story as a work of narration, and the show as a production. They have to react and take into account the fanbase - but that does not mean that fans get to dictate the show, either. They also regularly disagree with each other, have no idea what the central narrative will be, or sometimes just aren’t in constant communication with each other.

Queerbaiting, generally speaking, is a shitty thing to do. Especially on a show that also, already, has queer characters. On that, we agree. And I don’t know how you got “benign and innocuous” out of “they were doing their jobs”. You are, again, trying to put words into my metaphorical mouth to make a strawman argument.

And you’re right, we are going to disagree on most of the rest.

Such as reasons for watching a show. There is a right reason and a wrong reason for watching a show. It’s not about characters or ships or plot - it’s about watching the show to enjoy the show, vs watching it because you keep waiting for something to enjoy (and then getting mad when something that was never supposed to be there, isn’t there).

There is a world of difference between watching the show for inspiration for Sterek, and watching the show expecting Sterek to happen. There is a world of difference between watching the show because you like a side character, and waiting for that side character to supplant the main character as the star of the show. There is a world of difference between hoping for a ship and expecting a ship.

There is also a world of difference between “listening to fandom” and “bowing down to fandom”. By and large, the producers and actors of the show were listening. They were not obeying, they never had to, and they never should have had to.

As for the actors, there is also a world of difference between “I’d be down to play this” and “this is probably going to happen”. There is a world of difference between “I have some ideas for this dynamic” and “I want these two characters to hook up/end up together”. There is a world of difference between “this could happen (as could many other things)” vs “this probably will happen (as opposed to many other things)”.

It’s that element of picking and choosing again. Take Hoechlin’s idea for how the Darach confrontation in Derek’s loft could’ve gone - his idea was for a platonic interaction between two characters who he refers to as friends and partners in crime. Fandom took it as a shipping scene. This is probably the force that also leads to people seeing so many “Sterek questions” in interviews and panels that they forget - or never see in the first place - things like questions about Stydia, or other ships, or other character arcs unrelated to shipping at all.

I don’t pretend to have seen all the Teen Wolf interviews and such ever, but what I have seen is that along with Sterek, the cast have a lot to say about a lot of ships, hypothetical and otherwise. Of course, if you’re only ever looking for what they say about your own ship - and you only ship one thing - you’ll never see them.

(Which is probably why Posey got accused of being a homophobe. If you only pay attention to what he says about Sterek, then it’s easy to make that accusation, because you’ve never seen or paid attention to him talking about being open to Scott having a boyfriend, and being down to play Sciles or Scisaac.)

Yes, they were pandering to Sterek shippers. They were also pandering to Stydia shippers. They were pandering to Scallison shippers even while building an Allisaac relationship. They were pandering to Sterek and Stydia shippers while also pandering to the former Sterica base with Stora, and then with Stalia.

And I hate to break it to you, but Stiles’ “would you prefer I locked him in a basement?” line was still about Scott, not Derek. The conversation was about Kate, and Stiles didn’t particularly care about Derek in that scene, or in that season as a whole. Mentioning a piece of information provided by Derek was still about Kate.

I also really hate to break this to you, but Posey’s promotion doesn’t actually give him much sway over the decisions made about the show, just how those decisions are carried out. Equating the star of a show referring to said show as “theirs” and equating it with production power is a strawman argument - you are ascribing power and influence that Posey does not have to him, then blaming him for not using it, and for not putting his career on the line to speak more openly about the problems of the show.

It would ultimately achieve nothing and fix nothing - remember, racism isn’t just about individual shows, but also about the broader industry, and bias against WOC is rampant in Hollywood, MTV and otherwise. Look at fucking Hawaii 5-0 - if Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park could not get parity on a show whose ensemble they have been a part of since the very beginning of the show, what was Posey going to accomplish for himself or for Cho?

Especially given that he’s facing some tremendous cuts, himself - as a lot of people have pointed out, Scott practically became a side character on his own show in Season 6 to make room for Stydia, and this is with Posey having a production component in the show that was not there in the earlier seasons.

tl;dr - The show did its job of trying to pander to every ship. Sterek fandom took it personally when their ship wasn’t given even more preferential treatment than it was already getting, just because it also happened to be so big.

I’ve said before that fandom often blames Scott for failing to be omniscient. What you are doing is blaming Posey for failing to be omnnipotent.

#nyxie answers #anti teen wolf fandom #anti sterek fandom #teen wolf fandom meta #teen wolf #Anonymous #long post

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