#happening all over italy and cicero was like Well Obviously This Is All Because Of That One Guy Who Has Failed To Be Elected Like Three

[catilinas]

Do you support Catilina in the catiline conspiracy? Like, team Cicero or team Catiline bc honestly Catiline is so #problematic :// #OTemporaOMores

Hopeful regards, a Cicero stan

i think cicero and catilina should kiss actually

#/j #hashtag lucius sergius catilina has done nothing wrong in his life ever #also treason is sexy so even if he did. yeah #AND YET i do love cicero as a historical figure! and YET you are sending this ask to me tumblr user Catilinas. like. #serious answer is actually that i dont think the catilinarian conspiracy was actually real :/ #or not in the way cicero claims it was. the 'catilinarian' 'conspiracy' #there was a whole bunch of things going on. general unrest. gaius manlius vibing in etruria w sullan veterans #but also stuff was still going on unresolved from the social war! and also the debt crisis! various vaguely related things #happening all over italy and cicero was like Well Obviously This Is All Because Of That One Guy Who Has Failed To Be Elected Like Three #Entire Times By Now #honestly i think catilina had no idea what he was doing. like what was his plan. get elected but also burn down rome? #abolish debt...... in the city he was allegedly going to burn down?????? #the wild thing is that in like. the first catilinarian. cicero compares him to e.g. tiberius gracchus and saturninus as would-be destroyers #of the republic. but the gracchi / saturninus / drusus also had like. coherent plans. they Knew what they wanted to do w rome #catilina seemed to have had zero Actual Longterm Plans other than like. abolish debt + maybe get a sexy proconsular province #and the wildest thing is like. if he really wanted debt relief legislation. why the fuck did he not just bribe a tribune #catiline is SO weird to me as a rare 'popularis' who had absolutely nothing to do w the tribunate Ever #dare i say sullacore?????? #anyway. off topic but if you had not guessed. he is my blorbo. but yea catiline did nothing wrong hashtag team catilina #horrible horrible catiline. wow! #beeps

[palmettofoxesthings]

… so. about that "Cicero was gay for Pompey" bit.

Yes. That bit. Ok.

I went for a trip up to my loft for my A-level notes for this bit because the idea of searching for all the quotes I want to back me up was frightening when I knew I had it all written down somewhere already.

in the 50s BC Cicero was exiled! Bye bye Cicero, no one likes you- the whole reason for his exile is kinda long but basically he was a political block at this point and he needed to go (I say this as someone who has had to translate his writing and honestly when he drags a sentence on for 10 lines you get a little murder-y). In response to this we have writing from Plutarch on the whole situation. At this point Cicero wasn’t exiled, but it was definitely not a good situation for him and it was either meet Clodius with an army and fight or flee.

Importantly these quotes:‘Cicero appealed to Pompey for help, but Pompey had purposefully got out of the way and was staying at his country house in the Alban hills’- now I dont know about you but that does not seem like something someone would do if they were just friends. this seems like far too guilt driven of a move for that.Cicero then sent his son in law to appeal for help and Pompey ‘could not face seeing him. He was bitterly ashamed when he remembered how in the past Cicero had fought his battles on many important occasions and had often taken a particular line in politics for his sake’- JUST BROS BEING DUDES YA KNOW

Then Plutarch describes how Cicero behaved in his exile (away from Pompey)‘he remained, for the most part, miserable and disconsolate, keeping his eyes fixed, like a distressed lover, on Italy; his spirit was not great enough to rise above his misfortunes, and he became more dejected than one would have thought possible’But, Imogen, I hear you cry, he could have just been sad about leaving his home. This is true. But ‘distressed lover’ just seems awfully well picked here.

But now we move on for more evidence of why Cicero was gay for Pompey to Cicero’s recall in 57BC. So at this point this Clodius dude has kinda taken over and he’s just not nice and the nobility do not like him. And we get this wonderful line from Plutarch again‘Pompey bitterly reproached himself for the way he had abandoned Cicero… he did everything he could to have Cicero recalled’As did the senate and others who were also being terrorised so it is a lot about self preservation I will admit. I just think it’s interesting that Plutarch singled out Pompey so much when you also had Caesar and Crassus floating around at the time.

Furthermore, while Cicero was exiled and people were talking badly about Pompey, something that never really happened before, supposedly ‘the senate were delighted to see him being insulted in this way, regarding it as nothing more than he deserved for betraying Cicero’- Again, why single him out Plutarch? Hmmm?? Hmmm?? And just the line as well sounds like a group of friends taking a side in a break up. And it wasn’t until Cicero was back that he ‘reconciled’ Pompey and the senate and Pompey ended up ‘virtually the master of all Roman possessions by sea and land’- this seems like supportive, and very forgiving, bf stuff to me.

In addition to this, we have Cicero’s known dislike of Caesar and I’m pretty sure it was mutual. Cicero in his own letters blames Caesar for Pompey abandoning him, essentially saying he has been dripping poison in his ear because his Pompey would never do such a thing without that. or that might just be a sense I get from them.

Also from Cicero’s own letters, this one written to Atticum after his recall, he writes that he ‘named me as the chief and said I should be his alter ego in all things’ (this is after Pompey takes charge of the grain supply due to shortage and demand for it).

My favourite bit of evidence for this comes from another letter Cicero wrote to Atticum in which he writes:‘Pompeius, my hero, has brought about his own ruin, a fact that causes me great pain.’ He continues to disagree with everyone Caesar and Pompey are doing to Roman politics at the time but says ‘But I do not oppose it there cause because of my friendship with [Pompey]’. And even though Cicero does not agree with what Pompey is doing and reminisces of old times where Pompey was applauded for his actions, he still says ‘Pompeius shows considerable favour towards me; he declares Clodius will not say one word against me’

Another letter Cicero writes about Pompey during the dislike of him. ‘Our dear friend Pompey… now a physically disfigured and mental wreck… I could not hold back my tears when I saw him on the 25th July addressing a meeting of the people about the edicts of Bibulus. What a sight! Crassus alone enjoyed it… He had fallen from the stars… it was with deep sorrow that I, who had painted and perfected this man with all the colours of my art now suddenly saw him disfigured. Though none thought that I should be his friend on account of the business with Clodius (the whole exile thing), such was my affection for him that no injury could exhaust it… they [the edicts against Pompey] are excessively cruel to one for whom I have always felt affection’

Cicero even quotes Pompey in one of his letters to Atticum! And also just reading his letters you get a sense of Cicero trying to absolve Pompey of any blame for the republic falling. 

Until you get nearer the end when Cicero is very obviously mad at Pompey for disregarding his counsel and bolstering Caesar’s career. BUT he does write ‘all this I will pass over’ as if to say, oh well it’s been done, I still love him, until he says that is because he departure from Rome was even more shameful and irrational than anything else he’d done. BUT HE IS STILL TRYING TO REACH POMPEY! ‘Where shall I find safety until I can reach Pompey?’ so even though he is angry at Pompey for bolstering this man who is destroying the republic he still wants to go to him. It also seems to be that although Cicero is mad at Pompey for going head to head with Caesar to gain control of Rome, he is angrier still at the people who are betraying Pompey.

And there ya go. I am sure I could find more evidence and quotes if I was so inclined, however, ya girl can only read so much of Cicero in one day before she wants to tear her eyes out. So. In conclusion. Cicero gay for Pompey, and possibly vice versa.

#ancient history #pompey #cicero #ancient rome #roman history #plutarch #it's only 1.2K this time!