#he wouldn't have chosen anakin if he'd HAD a choice probably

[antianakin]

@theneutralmime

I don't believe Lucas himself has ever said this because quite simply it isn't true and it doesn't follow with the themes and messages Lucas put into Anakin's story. If you have a specific quote from Lucas you know about where he claims Qui-Gon could've kept Anakin from turning to the dark, feel free to let me know, but as far as I'm aware, he's never said it because it isn't true.

Plenty of OTHER people have said it, for sure, up to and including Dave Filoni. And there's probably a number of reasons for why they believe this.

Filoni seems to see the Jedi VERY critically as people who are elitist and too stuck in their ways to see the "truth", while Qui-Gon is enlightened and understands the "truth" better than anybody else. He thinks that this is the story TPM in telling and because Obi-Wan is a Perfect Jedi of sorts, it means that he can't really connect to or understand Anakin in a meaningful way, he's always going to try to make Anakin something he isn't and impose Jedi rules on him that are outdated and repressive in a way that Qui-Gon never would.

This is all complete and utter bullshit.

For one, Qui-Gon is only partly right. Yes, Anakin is the chosen one of the prophecy, but he DOESN'T have any concrete proof of this and the Council itself is right that Anakin's future is clouded and potentially dangerous. They're also right that Anakin isn't going to adjust well to the Jedi lifestyle which could make things difficult for him if they choose to waive the rules for him, something Qui-Gon is choosing to disregard. The whole point of the Council scenes in TPM is to showcase that they're BOTH RIGHT because Anakin at this point can go either direction in his life: he can fulfill the prophecy and become a hero, or he can turn to darkness and destroy the galaxy. Neither one is entirely right or entirely wrong in this situation because that's just... not the point. Qui-Gon is NOT more enlightened than the Council is in this instance even though he's not wrong about Anakin being a child of prophecy.

For two, even though Anakin would likely never be ENTIRELY comfortable with the Jedi lifestyle, I think it's undeniable that the Jedi teachings WOULD help Anakin with his emotional instability if they'd been able to do so without Palpatine's interference. This wouldn't ever get him to the point where he'd be a good JEDI, but it would get him to the point where he'd be emotionally healthy and balanced enough to recognize that this isn't the path he wants to walk and amicably chooses to leave the Order to pursue a life more suited to his needs and desires.

There's nothing in canon to support the idea that Obi-Wan struggles with training Anakin or that he has no idea what to do with him. The CLOSEST you get to that is Obi-Wan claiming to Luke in ROTJ that he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda and that he was wrong, but this storyline got sort-of changed in the prequels when they swapped Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's positions in the narrative, taking the narrative of Obi-Wan being arrogant to something very different.

For three, and this is the biggest reason that this idea of Qui-Gon being able to save Anakin is complete and utter bullshit, the primary reason Anakin falls is because ANAKIN CHOOSES TO FALL. It's not about having a better teacher, there is NO other teacher Anakin could've had that would've kept him from falling because the entire POINT of the story is that Anakin made that choice all on his own. He DID have a good teacher, he WAS given all of the tools he needed to make a better choice, he just didn't want to use any of them because he's selfish and greedy and inclined towards attachments. Removing Anakin's agency in his own story by claiming Qui-Gon could've saved him destroys the entire POINT of Anakin's story. It HAS to be a choice Anakin makes DESPITE knowing it's the wrong choice to make or every single theme in Star Wars goes right out the window. There's no meaning to Anakin choosing to save Luke and sacrifice himself if it doesn't contrast Anakin choosing to sacrifice EVERYONE ELSE for power earlier. They're both HIS CHOICE and that's so so important. Qui-Gon being able to train him would change NOTHING. Anakin would still make that choice because it's the story Lucas wanted to tell. And this is why I'm like 99% certain that Lucas himself has never once claimed Qui-Gon could've saved Anakin because I KNOW he's said things in interviews where he specifically discusses that it was Anakin's choice because he's selfish and greedy. THAT'S the story Lucas was trying to tell and he'd never say otherwise.

Qui-Gon would not have saved Anakin, Obi-Wan was not a subpar teacher, and Anakin made his own damn choices and always would have regardless of who trained him.

#star wars #anakin skywalker #anakin critical #anakin skywalker critical #qui-gon jinn #obi-wan kenobi #george lucas #dave filoni critical #filoni critical #filoni might CLAIM that lucas's intention was to say that qui-gon could've saved anakin #but that doesn't make it true #and it doesn't sound like something lucas would say to me

[thehollowprince]

A good Screenrant article? Color me surprised.

"Most viewers assume Qui-Gon was right to believe Anakin needed to be trained - but surprisingly, George Lucas seems to think it was a mistake.

"George Lucas believed Qui-Gon was wrong to decide to train Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace. Many viewers see Qui-Gon Jinn as the perfect Jedi, the embodiment of everything the Order was supposed to represent. He is a rebel against the Council, alone and uncorrupted, a champion of the underdog who recognizes Anakin Skywalker's potential. The reality, of course, is that Qui-Gon is a lot more nuanced; he's as flawed as any other Jedi, and in fact, George Lucas considered him even more flawed.

"Lucas expressed his own view in an interview with Cut Magazine in 1999 (via David Talks SW). In his view, Qui-Gon shares the same faults as Anakin; he is spontaneous and reckless, with Obi-Wan Kenobi providing him a sense of balance. What's more, Lucas surprisingly suggested Qui-Gon made a mistake in insisting the Jedi should train Anakin.

"I think it is obvious that he [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately, this decision may be correct. The 'phantom menace' refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces, which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin."

"It is certainly ironic that Lucas believes it "obvious" Qui-Gon shouldn't have trained Anakin. The modern consensus is that Qui-Gon was the one Jedi who could have saved Anakin, the only one who truly understood the prophecy of the Chosen One.

"The general view is that the Jedi Council was wrong to initially reject Anakin. Lucas takes a different view, though, suggesting Anakin's training was, in fact, the mistake that doomed the order. It's fascinating to imagine how the Star Wars saga would have played out if Anakin didn't join the Jedi; the most likely scenario is that he'd have been taken in by the people of Naboo as a hero, and no doubt he and Padmé would have gotten together anyway. Padmé wouldn't have held Anakin back when he began dreaming of his mother's death, so this Anakin would never have built up the fear of loss to the cataclysmic degree seen in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith. Amazingly, this is probably the happiest path Anakin could have taken - and he was denied it because of Qui-Gon Jinn's choice.

Personal Note: I don't like the insinuation that the Jedi "held Anakin back" from pursuing his visions to save his mother because by his own admissions, they were just dreams. By the time he himself finally decided to do something about it, it was too late. But aside from that, I agree with everything else.

"It's significant that the will of the Force had Anakin brought up on Tatooine, a world outside the Republic, where he wouldn't be found by the Jedi. In his impetuousness, Qui-Gon insisted the Chosen One should be trained by the Jedi - but there's nothing to indicate the prophecy of the Chosen One suggested any such thing. Unsurprisingly, Lucas' perspective on the Star Wars saga is entirely convincing, even if it does run against the general view. Things worked out in the end, of course, but only after a whole lot of chaos on a galactic scale."

#it's not often i agree with a screenrant article #because usually its the worst of fandom takes #but i guess lightning strikes once in a while #it's also just nice to see someone be critical of qui-gon jinn for a change #qui-gon jinn #anakin skywalker #pro jedi #in defense of the jedi

[gffa]

I just saw a comment on Instagram that Luke making Grogu choose between the saber and the chain armour was a test.

As in, off-screen Grogu could have chosen the saber and Luke would be like "you passed the test, let's go save your dad"

I really liked that idea. Probably not going to happen but interesting none the less

Now I just wanted to ask how you think this could fit in with your view on Luke asking him bc he wants to make sure Grogu's heart is in (referencing the long post you made about that)

Best wishes!

Hi! I think whatever happens after the choice Luke puts before Grogu doesn't really matter, in the sense that it's about what's in Grogu's heart, not some trick question. It's not a test, it's a choice. I don't think there's a puzzle to solve here, I don't think it's a situation where, had Grogu chosen the lightsaber, Luke would suddenly say that Grogu's fine now, because that's not why he put forth the choice in the first place. The problem is that Grogu wasn't really committed, that he was struggling with how much he missed Din, despite that he'd previously made the decision to go with Luke himself. Grogu wants to want to be there, but his heart isn't really in it, as Luke questions. And Ahsoka isn't asking Din to hold off on seeing Grogu because Jedi can't have outside friendships (we see that the Jedi Order has always had outside friendships, that they immediately make friends with people as soon as they see them--look at Obi-Wan and Dex, Yoda and Tarrful, the Jedi and the clones, etc.), but because it would make it harder for Grogu to have those feelings ripped open anew. That's where Grogu is at that moment. He's conflicted, in a way that's dangerous for psychic space wizards. That doesn't go away if Grogu chooses the lightsaber, those feelings are still going to be there, his difficulties will still be there, and immediately going to see Din right afterward would only make that struggle harder. If Grogu wasn't in a place where he was struggling with these conflicting desires, then the choice wouldn't have been necessary in the first place. If he were able to settle into this path he'd decided on, then Luke wouldn't need to ask him to choose between the two things, because he'd already have done so. So, I lean towards the idea that the choice is exactly what it's presented as--Grogu has two paths before him, he's feeling torn between them and needs to whole-ass one thing, not half-ass two things. And even if he had chosen the lightsaber, that doesn't mean the conflict within him is immediately resolved, it still would have taken time and immediately going after Din would have made his decision much harder. If Grogu had been settled and it was only Luke who wasn't sure Grogu was sure? Then, yes, give him the shirt and even go help Din if he needed it. But Grogu wasn't settled and that was what the choice was about, a genuine question of what Grogu wanted, not some kind of test imo. And I think that makes a ton of sense, given a) what Luke Skywalker went through himself and the mistakes he made in his own training and how George Lucas says leaving Dagobah early was a mistake for him and what Luke knows of Anakin's refusal to choose and b) Luke was very much right about Grogu and the choice presented was the most kind thing he could do in that situation.

#the book of boba fett #the book of boba fett spoilers #luke skywalker #grogu #meta

[antianakin]

@theneutralmime

Okay, we've got a lot happening here.

First, why do people demonize Obi-Wan keeping the truth about Anakin's identity from Luke. I'm probably not the right person to ask given that I'm not one of those people who demonizes him, so I can't speak to that mindset very well, but a lot of just feels like basic bad faith interpretations of Obi-Wan's motivations. Some of it might be the assumption that, if Obi-Wan or Yoda had just told him the truth, then Luke wouldn't have had to be told by Anakin himself and had that particular bombshell dropped in the worst possible way. Which, you know, MAYBE. But we also don't know precisely how Luke would've reacted to learning that information when he was younger or how that would've impacted his Jedi training, something both Obi-Wan and Yoda were fairly worried and cautious about. They're presumably TRYING to give Luke his best chance here. Of course then you have people claiming that Obi-Wan and Yoda lie because they don't CARE about Luke himself and only care about raising Luke as their personal weapon to take down Anakin and Palpatine, which is obviously ridiculous.

It's also just ignoring how much Obi-Wan DOES tell Luke. He explains a lot about what "Vader" did, how he was once a Jedi, how he betrayed them, etc. But he also talks about "Anakin" who he describes positively. He gives Luke the most complete and nuanced picture of Anakin that he can. Imagine Luke being told straight-up in this moment that his father is Vader. He'd likely never give Anakin a chance to be good at all because that information would, for good and obvious reasons, override anything positive Obi-Wan might have to say about it. But leaving that piece of information out allows Luke to continue remembering Anakin as a good person for a while longer, even after he meets "Vader" in person, so by the time he has to face this particular truth, he's in a better place to consider the ENTIRE truth rather than just get stuck on his first reaction.

And like you said, Luke himself clearly gets it. He's clearly not HAPPY about being lied to or the revelation itself, but he's not all that angry either and he gives both Obi-Wan and Yoda multiple chances to explain why they did it and their perspective on the situation without getting particularly accusatory.

So I dunno, maybe some people feel like Luke SHOULD be more angry than he is at Obi-Wan and Yoda and just project the way THEY would feel about the issue onto Luke himself. I can't say I don't do similar things myself. I often feel like people should be more angry at ANAKIN than they are in canon and like to just project that onto the characters when I can (like Obi-Wan, or Ahsoka, or Rex), so that I can explore the situation from that perspective. But, you know, Obi-Wan lies a tiny bit with the best of intentions and Anakin commits multiple genocides and enslaves multiple entire populations for several decades in a row, so I feel like one of these is more justified than the other lol.

I THINK what you're saying next here is that Obi-Wan might genuinely believe Anakin is dead, which... is likely only true for a certain amount of time. As per Disney canon, he discovers this 10 years after ROTS. Within Lucas canon, Obi-Wan is clearly perfectly aware that Anakin is still alive and out there since he discusses Vader pretty candidly as the person who betrayed him, so he knows that Vader and Anakin are the same person when we meet him in ANH. What isn't clear (if we don't take the Kenobi show into account) is precisely WHEN he finds this out, but he knows it by the time he's talking to Luke about it all. This isn't just a genuine misunderstanding on Obi-Wan's part.

As for whether I think things would've been better if he'd killed Anakin on Mustafar, I mean... yes? Kinda, yes. The thing about prophecies in Star Wars is that they tend to be kind-of nebulous things. Anakin IS the Chosen One, he absolutely is, but that doesn't mean he has no choice in his own fate. Anakin could, theoretically, defy that prophecy until the day he dies. Choice is really important in Star Wars, it's a major theme that Lucas chose to put in there, and so the prophecy is not DICTATING what Anakin ends up doing. Anakin was not always going to fall to darkness, the Republic falling to the Sith was not "meant to be" and neither was the destruction of the Jedi (if you've seen the Ahsoka show, you'll know that Filoni doesn't believe this and he's peddling a different story, so this is primarily within Lucas canon and the better shows like the Kenobi show). That prophecy isn't going to kill Palpatine, it isn't a guarantee of his eventual demise that the galaxy just has to wait long enough for. AT BEST, I think the prophecy is a guarantee that if ANAKIN tries to kill Palpatine, he will succeed. That's it. And I think he also has to be killing Palpatine FOR THE RIGHT REASONS or it won't work (for example if he's trying to kill Palpatine so he can become the Sith Master, he'll fail; it HAS to be done out of selflessness or the prophecy doesn't kick in). This also means that Palpatine could, theoretically, be killed by someone or something else. It's not IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, just immensely more difficult and extremely unlikely.

All of this is to say that if Obi-Wan had killed Anakin on Mustafar, it doesn't like... doom the galaxy to be ruled by the Sith forever necessarily just because the Chosen One is now dead. It won't slow Palpatine down much, he'll still have the stormtroopers and the Inquisitors and people like Tarkin and he's still working on the Death Star. But it takes Vader out of commission, it's one less weapon of mass destruction on Palpatine's belt that he can deploy as desired upon the people of the galaxy. And it's one less threat aimed at the Force sensitive people of the galaxy. Palpatine can always pick another Sith apprentice, but they'd never be the same level of power as Anakin. So there's a lot of positives to Anakin being removed from the playing board a lot earlier, even if it means taking out Palpatine himself potentially becomes a lot more difficult.

That being said, it's a lot easier than when Vader is standing between Palpatine and the galaxy, so, you know, pros and cons there too. Not a single person is actually counting on the prophecy anyway at this point, so the changes are all fairly positive as far as the galaxy is concerned. But whether Palpatine would've actually ended up killed or not is entirely up to speculation. It could go either way, with Palpatine being more vulnerable and so he gets killed earlier, or with Palpatine being able to rule even longer than he does in canon. I like to think that Palpatine could be taken out by other means, even with Anakin out of the game entirely, that he's not incapable of being killed.

Also, there's nothing saying that if Anakin fails as a child of prophecy that the Force and the midichlorians couldn't just... try again and pick/create a new Chosen One as a reaction to Anakin's death.

#star wars #obi-wan kenobi #luke skywalker #anakin skywalker #sheev palpatine #palpatine