#i also wanna do an analysis trying to pin down his level of social awareness

[fumifooms]

Laios Touden and autism; admiring the non-human

Do you think people exaggerate when they scream about Laios being autistic? Do you feel like it’s weird that so many people including autistics are so set on Laios, the problematic (but incredible and kind) king TM, being the most autistic that has ever autisticed? Why do we cheer on autistic people wanting to be monsters?? Isn’t that weird?

Well, of course it depends on the way it’s done, it can be done quite offensively, but long story short Kui blew it out of the park. The thing is, autistic people really do like monsters and animals and robots. Nonhuman does not mean subhuman, it just means Other. Feeling a connection with them has been shown to be an extremely common autistic experience for that very reason.

Because some people don’t understand why we autistic Tumblr Laios stans cheer “autism! Autism!” whenever he talks about monsters and feeling alienated to humans so! Here’s a post about how yes even research papers are analyzing the special connection we form with animals. I’m not even joking but Laios Touden & the mass cries of relatability with autistic people he gets and all the love for him could be used as study material and evidence for future papers because the link is that strong. Oh also I think it’s notable that being autistic and undiagnosed vs diagnosed makes a huge difference. In my experience as someone who was undiagnosed up until 18, it’s even more alienating to not know that there’s a reason why you’re different, being gaslit that you’re ‘normal’ and you just need to try harder and get with the program, etc. Personally when getting diagnosed I went through the 5 stages of grief because the thought of having been fundamentally different all your life (a difference which you will never be able to change) and mistreated for it when you weren’t “wrong” all along makes you unload all the anger and sadness and loneliness and sheer trauma you’ve built up over time. Like it’s world shattering.

So! Back to seeing dogs as family. Also I implore you to value experiential evidence when it comes to autism and other neurodivergences because brains are complicated and neurotypicals not being able to understand us well even with scientific research is like, a whole thing even though we’re right there speaking about how we feel and being right every time because the topic is literally us and how we experience the world. 

Disclaimer for this whole post that, of course, no group is a monolith and everyone has different experiences or can diverge from the norm of the group, and that doesn’t diminish the validity of either side! Like, I know autistic people who have trauma with dogs and hate them. But, trends do happen, and in this case... Autism is very “My experiences with humans make me feel dehumanized in a bad and lonely way so instead I’ll dehumanize myself in a good and inspiring way”.

“I was treated like a failed human my entire life and you’re surprised that my response was to become a dog.” -Patricia Taxxon

It’s literally well recorded that autistic people relate to animals more than humans globally. With this post, besides spreading autistic Laios truthism and explaining why the portrayal hits so deep for so many,  I want to show in what way this is a very specific experience and not looking at his character through an autistic lense really misses a lot of why he’s everything that he is. (Tacking allegedly onto here for legal reasons, different interpretations are valid etc etc /gen). This honestly isn’t super long though.

To define an important term, anthropomorphism in the studies and in this post means to attribute human traits to the nonhuman, which not only includes anthro furry designs but also animals irl, inanimate objects, and animated media as opposed to live action, to humanize them and empathize with them.

Paper: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aut.2019.0027 

“Dogs taught me how to hunt and socialize and work in groups”, Laios having internalized body language... So real so real. I, too, make a great dog impression. And I want to emphase the part that it helps greatly develop a sense of emotions and relationships! For Laios, he didn’t get along with kids his age, it was him, Falin and the dogs against the world. Since it’s a group of dogs too, it taught him group dynamics and social hierarchies (like with Falin being considered as being below the dogs in authority according to the dogs rip), and the importance of group coordination when hunting.

For me, I cannot like, concisely explain just how much animals were important to me developmentally. I also grew up with dogs, but like I vividly remember encounters with like hamsters as well just radically shaping my understanding of boundaries, the importance of giving something space and the way you interact with them and respect their side of it. Unlike humans they don’t really mask how they feel, it’s direct cause-effect reaction and data gathering. There are no words involved, so the focus on having a perfect phrasing and tone is gone, leaving just pure interactions. 

There’s also no reason to mask how you feel either, and you don’t have to feel silly over wanting to form a connection and it showing, what, is the dog gonna laugh at you because you obviously want to make friends with it? Toshiro or Kabru might, but dogs and cats will just tell you to fuck off and leave it there worst case scenario. I often say that I think one reason Marcille is special to Laios and he feels comfortable around her is because she emotes INTENSELY, she gestures, she puts her whole body into it, her facial expressions are pretty exaggerated and her ears even emote too- like with a dog’s ears!

I think there’s def also things to be said about how he gravitated towards Izutsumi at first, all excited, was eager to sleep in the same bed as her, but in the Izutsumi sleep rating chart we see they really just casual and chill so it’s not a Laios talking to Shuro deep into the night situation just a “I like sleeping besides animals” situation and that is enough to hype him up. I love how he pet her in the extra about why Chil let her sleep with him too. He’s just so transparently eager to befriend her, even if in the end they weren’t all that compatible and he accepted that.

There are honestly so many examples I could give for this. Like Grandin the famous cow lady.

More about autism & empathy:

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/double-empathy-explained/ (Also mentions a study in which groups of autistic, allistic then a mixed group played a game of telephone and both singular groups had similar levels of information retention, but the mixed group was significantly worse. As an autistic person yeah duh, obviously autistic people are different from one another and can have plenty of interpersonal issues, but communicating with other neurodivergent people feels pretty intuitive and straightforward and comfortable. One of the reasons why neurodivergent people tend to naturally gravitate towards each other I suppose.) 

^ Paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5932358/  For good, extensive summary of why we relate to animals so much you can go to the “anthromorphizing and asd” section of the paper. This paper extends to our widespread liking of cartoons and robots as well. Ok so this is a whole thing I won’t get into here but this is a big reason why a lot of autistic people are agender leaning as well. Genders and queerness in general is a lot about social constructs, and being queer is being marginal to these, not fitting into boxes or challenging those social norms and conventions. Queerplatonic relationships are a great example of this, where the framework of the relationship is platonic but the intangible nature of what it is exactly is the point, not familial not anything but everything at once too, just adoration, I like to say having pets is a bit like it as well, bc obvi it’s not romantic and often not fully familial, very platonic but also sooo much cuddling and adoration and kissing and whatnot that you wouldn’t typically do with a friend or family member. I’ll talk about qpr and labels another day though.

I got carried away but queerness in Dunmeshi is something I 100% want to make a big post on one day. Experiencing the world with different guidelines and not registering things to have the same boxes, sigh. Personally I also relate to Laios on a gender level, “cis by default because I don’t care all that much but if I were to dig deeper I’m probably otherkin and I want to be socially associated with traits of monsters and animalistic rather than man/woman” sighh hard to be a cryptid in this day and age. I wish we had a term like furry but for monsters, I want to be in the fantasy or folk tale genre ty, like changelings. Goshh changelings... You know, the irl myth where people said their neurodivergent kids were fairies’ children instead of human. Diminished physical sense of self means I see myself as some unknowable black  void aesthetic wise, but like in a way that simultaneously makes me feel seen. Like becoming a monster, losing your sense of self but also somehow just being simplified and seen for what you are, it’s weird to try and explain. This post is more about relating to the nonhuman than about seeing yourself as such, but like connect the dots right, that IS an important point of Laios’ character. It’s because our brains literally work different than allistics which makes us feel as other, but also because of social ostracization and functioning in a different way than society at large, living in the margin of society, being weird and non-conforming.

Meanwhile, animals and social norms... Like ok, showing your neck and rolling on the ground to show that you’re friendly and harmless and play biting might not be proper. But have you considered that it’s also fun and feels very intuitive. Play with a dog in the dog’s way I promise it is so nice and freeing. Play tug of war and growl back when they growl. Hiss at your cat to tell them they do something wrong, engage with them on their level.

Autism made social life hard, but it made animals easy. Do you have anyyy idea how good it feels to mask all day every day and feel constantly misunderstood or like you’re doing a performance but then you can just, drop all of that in the company of animals and they understand you. They understand you. You form an understanding and rapport so easily.

And this whole thing with Laios is so explicit too, with the Winged Lion saying “You’re sick and tired of the human world”. Notice the choice of words. Sick and tired of the human world. Exhausted from the constraints, sick of the mind games. It really isn’t as much about loving monsters as it is about loving the nonhuman. Relating to them because you feel that you can actually understand how they work and think, and feeling like they could understand you back as well. Animals are safe.

Like I could go on about how Laios admiring even just demi-humans like orcs is because they’re socially seen as non-humans more than any true physical thing, that they’re not bound by human society and its rules and live with their own lifestyle. But it would deal myself 1000 points of psychic damage and I am not ready to cry today. It’s idealization 100%, and like, Laios DOES want to be treated as human, to be valued, but it feels like an unreachable thing meanwhile becoming a monster is instant gratification and freedom and a sense that now no one will be able to hurt you in a way that reaches you, never again shall you be defenseless, and then if people dehumanize you then that only strengthens your sense of identity as a monster and UGHH ugh ugh.

And like. This post is a mess at this point but if you want to kinda delve into the more “why” then I recommend this Patricia Taxxon video essay. It starts out on a very different topic, but it’s all about autism and finding comfort in the inhuman. Long story short is othering made us like this also animals are just simpler to intuitively get along with.

So when I post this

I mean it. I really mean it when I say he’s me. I have never felt so seen. So many conflicting emotions all wrapped so concisely yet so intangibly woven into the whole storyline so subtly. 

Not being depicted as a monster of an human being for feeling/having felt that way?? The manga understands you. The world can understand you. Other humans can understand you. You can bond with them. You can. And I think that’s a big part of Dungeon Meshi too- Laios opening up to others about how he really is and his interests, and all the bumps on the way but how it was the only way to truly get to know each other and bond. With the climax being Laios confronting head on his complex with monsters and humans, and his monster-loving side and animalistic side being exactly what saves the whole world, what saves humanity. Because Laios does value his friends, does think humanity has beautiful sides to it, he wants to help it thrive and eat and become more accepting, carving out a kingdom for misfits and demi-humans. At the end of it, transforming into a monster and being free is a daydream fantasy, and the reality of it is that Laios does belong in the world as he is, and does receive and give out love.

If you enjoyed this you’ll probably like some of my other Laios analysis!  Here’s an analysis of his succubus and what it says about his relationships with other humans. And here’s an analysis about his relationship with Shuro from his perspective.

#dungeon meshi #delicious in dungeon #laios touden #character analysis #i guess #dungeon meshi manga spoilers #spoilers #autistic laios touden #asd #autism representation #meta #draft so old it uses the old Tumblr post editor #it would be much better if i could put them side to side rip #i also wanna do an analysis trying to pin down his level of social awareness #i love that the monster story epic saga about misfits and your place in the world on an ecosystem level is just sooo autistic so perfect #this post has a weird structure but hopefully it can showcase some things and make ppl understand and others relate! I know we're out there #hiii therians how we feeling today. Brain chemistry is weird but ours is just wired different not broken #feeling self-conscious bc even with studies this is the equivalent of going 'trust me bro I get it' which usually doesn't go well with us #Humanity is beautiful <3333 Humans are social animals broski love yourself!!!

[ryoceann]

Hi. Itk here. Believe me, don't, doesn't matter. Thought I'd drop (after you summoned ha) by given the chaos and try to enlighten the ones who choose to believe me, as much as I'm capable of.

The first thing I wanna say is: stop trying to figure out their relationship. You most likely never will. Fans are stuck on both extremes, when the actuality of it is far more in the middle (perhaps even up or down and all around ha). It's complex and strange and not at all "normal" (as normal as they could be, anyways).

It's not as simple as "oh they're just a closeted couple who engage in bearding and have kids and behind closed doors they're just a regular, old married couple and a big, happy rainbow family".

Doesn't sound like itk info, believe me, I get that but observing the fandom I'd say it almost is because most fans simply hang on extreme simplistic ideas of what their relationship is.

Second thing I'd like to say and unfortunately seems like it's not at all obvious but: do not believe anything they share publicly. Not saying they're lying compulsively, but they are public figures and they have a lot at stake to just casually drop the actual truth of any given situation.

Just don't. The same salt you have regarding itks, have towards them. It'd do you some good...Believe me. Unless you are involved in the entertainment or political life, you cannot even begin to fathom what it's really like, the level of manipulation, falsehood and well, overall deviation of it. It's quite disturbing tbh. So just always take whatever's said and shown with a good amount of salt. With public people hardly anything is accidental or casual.

I think the most prominent question now is...Why? Why would they do something like that? Regardless if you have the ingenuity to believe the little scene they made or not...Still, the question lingers.

With my level of "in the knowness" I cannot for sure say the real reason, yet from the pieces I've collected so far, seems to be a multiple gain scheme. It was a high risk, they were well aware, and it paid out in the way they were expecting, minus small bumps here and there. But overall it seemed to have worked in their favor. How in the hell, one would ask?

Believe me, I used my best sneaky capabilities to find out exactly why but they were smart enough to keep this one locked tight, minus a few loose lips. And from those all I've heard was that "whatever the purpose was, it worked out".

As weird as it may sound to the innocent mind, it's actually not at all, given that even leaked nudes are not at all leaked or accidental, and those tend to (at least in the past) get immense amount of backlash. It's not the first time famous folks fake a fight, surely won't be the last.

A lot goes into public image, it's not black and white as "well but it looked bad on Jensen", "it looked bad on the prequel", etc. You'd be surprised as how little this truly matters given the level of manipulation they are able to pull on the public. And well, even with them...It happens all the time. Both made mistakes far worse than just "not telling my bestie about my new project" and fans would eventually let that go and put them back on the pedestal.

So just remember, always: not in the industry? then don't judge anything because you simply do not understand how it works.

Another piece of itk information I can give besides "this was planned and it worked" is: they are fine. From what I've heard they are not fighting over it or going through anything more dramatic than what they usually have been going through ever since they met haha.

So just sit back and chill out. Breathe, read fanfiction and remember that we will never truly get answers, because even what comes out of their mouths are most of the time carefully thought out and directed to have a specific meaning and effect (why do you think Jared mumbles and rambles so much?).

Another interesting piece of itk: you know how they always say they never fight? Even though that sounds insanely hard to believe even if they were just friends because who knows someone for that long and is constantly together and never fights? Unlikely, right? Yes, as obvious as that was. But unfortunately a lot of you seem to believe that, given the level of shock you had for this little twitter feud (as fake as it was). Yeah. They fight. A lot.

They fight as much as individuals in their situation would. Like I said, not at all what most people absentmindedly seem to think it is. They go through a lot. Way more than anyone who isn't in a similar situation would understand. It's messy, although they try their best to make it simpler in the ways they can.

On top of being in a very complex situation, they both have strong personalities and one of them is quite hard to "pin down". So altercations happen a lot, but they know how to deal, and they are exceptionally good at making sure that doesn't interfere in their work (oh well, at least not any work that doesn't benefit from intense emotional exchanges, anyways 😉...chemistry isn't something random, you know? haha).

I find it quite...interesting (to put it nicely) that a lot of hats easily believe they are a couple that lies constantly about almost every aspect of their lives, yet, they cannot believe they would fake a social media narrative. It makes no sense whatsoever.

It'd do you all good to be a little less tendentious and look at them as, you know...Humans? They are not what they seem to be, just as you guys also take in different versions of yourselves in different situations, they do too. And don't be so hopelessly naive to actually believe they see fans as "hashtag family". This is their work. And as grateful as they are for supporters, they certainly do not consider them family. To the point of never lying and trusting you with their life.

I'm sure they love their fans, but come on, saying they would never lie because that's mean to fans is just beyond naive. They've been doing it all along and oh, another interesting info? They don't think they're doing anything wrong.

Yeah, sounds weird, you'd think they'd feel guilty. But again, unless you were media trained, you'd never get it.

From years now if there's one consistent info I've gotten was this: they don't feel obligated to tell you anything. They believe they are doing "what they are supposed to do, the right thing for everyone involved".

So. Yeah. And hell, they are right about not being obligated to say anything about anything, I guess.

Well, I hope that was helpful or at least entertaining. It's hard to share info without accidentally making it obvious who I am for the lurkers (sure you guys were well aware that they lurk around the fandom). But it's safe because as long as I don't provide evidence, I'm fine. Just walking a thin line between sharing and not sharing something too specific that would be easy fir them to know who has that info and although they can't do anything against itks, they can manage to cut us off somehow and I enjoy having access lol, so that'd be a bummer.

Anyways, take itks and J2 themselves with a ton of salt haha! You are lovely, btw, you seem very kind and I enjoy your blog very much! much love!

itk anon everything you said was <333 and i agree with like almost all of it. very nice analysis and ask thank you ! i don't always believe everything j2 put out but the whole stunt being a false narrative just seems wrong so idk what to make of it. regardless i myself can sometimes get carried away in my star-struck love of j2. and i am a tinhat so well :) and now they look to be really good and taking a break from here was well worth it <3

''You are lovely, btw, you seem very kind and I enjoy your blog very much! much love!'' i love u so much hope u have a great day !

#anon ask #this was long jfc #ily anon <3 #j2 tinhat #prequel gate