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hollowaydivision-blog · 7 years

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Lemongate: An F.A.Q.

What is Lemongate exactly?

Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you for not immediately dismissing the whole post as soon as you see the word 'lemon' separated from the word 'cakes'.

Oh. You don't have to thank me - how could I know whether I should dismiss it until I read the whole post? Speaking of which, can you get on with it? I still don't know what Lemongate is.

Lemongate is a fan term for the ongoing mystery of the House with the Red Door, Daenerys and Viserys' childhood home. Daenerys believes the Red Door is in Braavos, but the most prevalent aspect of her memory is the lemon tree outside her window - and we've been told multiple times, in multiple different ways, in multiple different books, that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos.

So what?

Well, on its own we might suspect author error. After all, the house with the red door memories were introduced in Daenerys I AGOT, and we didn't really get a thorough examination of how completely opposite Braavos is to the memories Dany has of her childhood until AFFC. Yet the lemon hints are present before that; in fact, lemons are the most prominent fruit in our story, having been focused on specifically from the beginning in Sansa and Arya's love of lemoncakes. And furthermore, nothing else about Dany's memories fit with the Braavos we know. She remembers sun, and grass, and hot, sweet smells - but the weather in Braavos is either rain, fog, or freezing rain.

You have the quotes to back all of this up, right? Because I get a sense of where you're going with this and I do not like it sir, not one bit.

Yes, I do, and you can find them elsewhere if you do some googling - but this is a quick FAQ about the lemon trees, not the resulting theories people have made concerning its meaning. To reiterate: this is not a thread debating parentage, or lineage, or major plot points likely to polarize a vast majority of the fan community. I simply want to clear up any misunderstanding regarding George's deliberate insertion of the lemon tree discrepancy.

But the tinfoilers believe that the lack of lemon trees in Braavos is proof Dany didn't grow up there, and thus isn't the son of Aerys and Rhaelle Targaryen - which is clearly true.

Is it? Because a frail woman who's physically abused and has had six miscarriages already seems unlikely to successfully bear a child in the middle of the "greatest storm in living memory." And there are a number of other odd things about a pregnant Rhaelle supposed flight to Dragonstone - for instance, Daenerys and Jaime's recollection of of Rhaelle's flight is wildly different - for instance, Dany believes that Viserys accompanied the pregnant Rhaelle, but we have no idea if this is true.

But as for Dany not being the child of Aerys and Rhaella, why is that such a tough pill to swallow? Our male lead has a secret heritage that will seemingly grant him access to powers and put him in positions to Save The World From The Others - why not our female lead?

Well I have nothing against that per se, but my understanding of the Lemongate theory is that it eventually results in the deeply unsatisfying B+A=J, R+L=D. Is this true?

I'm glad you asked! Absolutely not. This is not necessarily true. Sure, there is a case to be made for it with several convincing points of evidence - for instance, Dany seems to have Lyanna's natural ability to ride a horse, which is a big part of what helped her fit in with the Dothraki. But there are other ways to go with the idea that Dany's past is not all it seems and her parents may not be who she thinks than polluting our savior Jon Snow's Tower of Joy birth and Targaryen lineage. The point is, R=L=D can be reasonably called a "tinfoil" theory but Lemongate is fully confirmed fact.

Note the irony in the name - it's not just a reference to conspiracy theorists - it's a reference to Watergate, where Nixon managed to rule over the people using false and deceptive pretenses. If Dany is someone else and not actually the heir of House Targaryen, and the lemon trees point to her lack of true legitimacy, she would be an apt parallel to Nixon (and Jon and Euron, who also won "fair elections" through magical and political manipulation).

Wait, wait, back up. How is Dany not the true heir of House Targaryen? I thought you said Lemongate didn't necessarily mean R+L=D?

I did indeed. And while R+L=D would make Dany a bastard (even with a heart tree marriage, polygamy is not legitimate) and behind "Aegon" in the line of succession, we should remember why we always call him "Aegon" and not Aegon. Even a bastard inherits before a pretender.

But let's say R+L=D isn't true. Then we have to look around for a new set of parents. There's an ample supply of Dead Ladies for potential moms - with the leading candidates being Lyanna, Ashara, and Wylla (not dead but I can't imagine anyone getting to interview her anytime soon), and the Fisherman's daughter (Godric Borrel's story about Mama Snow has Ned impregnating a fisherman's daughter and leaving her with a sack of silver and a bastard - a story I believe to be a complete falsification designed to trick Davos and through him eventually trick Jon). There's also an equally ample supply of randy gentlemen with important bloodlines - though Brandon, Ned, Aerys, and Rhaegar seem like the clear front-runners as potential fathers for our two leads.

You're losing me fast, Holloway. Daenerys is clearly a Targaryen. She hatched fucking dragons.

You're right, she did. And hatching dragons is something the Targaryens haven't been able to do for hundreds of years. Incredible luck that Dany was the first one to pull it off. Incredible luck - or the "blood of the dragon" had gone dormant in House Targaryen, but could exist in another house. Because Daenerys is not definitely a Targaryen. She's definitely a Valyrian. We know this ipso facto from her silver hair and purple eyes. But do you know what other house has silver hair and purple eyes? House Dayne, a house so ancient and revered that the legend of Starfall goes back to the Dawn of Days. If there is "blood of the dragon", as the nobles of the Freehold believed, House Dayne is one of only four ancient Westerosi families besides the Targaryens with Valyrian features consistently present in their bloodline.

Wait, so you're saying Dany is the daughter of Ashara?

Well, it offers an explanation of why Ned tried to hard to protect Daenerys in AGOT and felt so guilty when he thought he had failed - he was in love with Ashara at one point, and if he knows Ashara is Daenerys' true mother, he may have felt an obligation to protect her - even at the risk of the realm. I'm sure we can all think of an ex we're not really over and would do stupid, irrational things for. And furthermore, Brandon and Ashara were together in King's Landing approximately nine months before Jon Snow and Dany enter the story, and Ashara is said to have "lost" a daughter in childbirth. And there is a straight up statement that she looks like Ashara’s daughter.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall... those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ...

..But again, this thread is not to push any particular parentage theory. It's simply to point out that without a doubt, Lemongate - the Braavosi weather issue - is real.

You keep saying "Lemongate is real, Lemongate is real." I think it's time we saw some quotes.

Fine. We first hear all about Dany's Lemon Tree in the first two books - it even appears on-page in her temptation in the House of the Undying. I'll spare you those quotes, but books 1 and 2 establish the template in Dany's memory, the reliability of which books 3, 4, 5, and 6 promptly and enthusiastically undermine. Basically, we're hammered over the head with two facts: Lemons DON'T grow in Braavos, but Dorne is FAMOUS for them.

For instance, Sharna the innkeep is requested to roast a duck with lemons, as a Dornish girl once did.

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too." She shook a finger at him.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, we visit Braavos, we see the climate is completely unsuitable. And just in case we didn't (or chose not to) recognize it, GRRM has two guards have a half-page conversation about it in a TWOW sample chapter.

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?"

"Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?"

And just to double down because he can, GRRM includes another reference in another TWOW chapter, where Arya's sister and dramatic counterpart makes the opposite observation.

For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out. Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was following /westerosmeteorology.tumblr.com

You're the one who asked for quotes. But yes, let's move on. I won't bombard you with all the other asynchronous Essentially what we have are two mysterious Valyrian mothers (Rhaelle and Ashara), two mysterious Valyrian fathers (Aerys and Rhaegar) and two mysterious "half-a-horse" Starks (Brandon and Ashara).

But wait! What about the courts and the gardens-

-of the mighty, yes yes. Here's the quote:

"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

The contention of Lemongate deniers is that of course Dany could've been raised in Braavos - in one of those courts or gardens of the mighty. Hence, the lemon tree. There are two problems with this. First of all, let's address the Sealord's Palace and why it doesn't fit: Daenerys associates the House with the Red Door with a peaceful, isolated, happy life. In other words, the last Targaryens were trying to keep a very low profile. Being kept as a political capital by the Sealord in a magnificent palace with hundreds of rooms and a friggin' zoo is something Dany would remember. Second, just because the "mighty" can afford trees doesn't mean they can magically create a climate in which citrus trees can grow. After all, I think Dany would also remember if her treasured house of childhood innocence was encased in a giant Myrish greenhouse.

Okay, admittedly the difference in climates and the association of lemons with Dorne is pretty glaring. But I can't help but feel whatever this is leading to is inextricably linked to parentage, and I'm afraid the result might infringe on the one absolute certainty about the books to come: Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon. After all, it has been literally confirmed by the show.

As GRRM would say, "the show is not the books." Yet I do feel that some discussion of the show is relevant here. Let's compare to another big book-only twist. In the books, Mance is swapped out for Rattleshirt, who burns in his place. The Rattleshirt we meet later is Mance in disguise. In the show, Mance is burned, plain and simple - but seemingly just to poke fun/clarify for book readers, the showrunners went to the effort of recasting and reintroducing Rattleshirt just so Tormund could beat him to death moments after running into him.

In other words, that's Dan and Dave saying "We're not doing this plot, guys."

Now compare to this scene in the show, where Arya, chased through Braavos by the Waif, literally slams into hundreds of citrus fruit being peddled by Braavosi merchants, scattering them all over the screen.

There's even a gratuitous closeup of an orange - a reference to the Godfather, a traditional symbol of impending death in cinema and literature, a way to add color - but maybe also a way of saying, "We're not doing this plot, guys."

Okay, okay, okay. Talk about weather and ambigious shots of lemons and random mentions of the lack of trees in Braavos all you want - it doesn't come close to confirming that Dany's red door memories are significant. Short of author confirmation, I'm sticking with Occam's Razor.

Once again - NOT arguing R+L does or does not equal J or D. I personally hate arguing about secret lineage. I am just pleading with the community to accept that George has included the lemon tree discrepancy on purpose and it is significant.

Fortunately, you don't have to take my word for that. I do actually have author confirmation. GRRM was asked this on Livejournal:

Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past? Thank you so much.

And in a very uncharacteristic fashion, he responded not with "keep reading," but with an outright confirmation of its importance. I hope you'll forgive me for putting this in big bold letters.

“Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to . . . well, that would be telling.”

Source from Livejournal

Instead of acknowledging author error - which he does when applicable - or give his usual cryptic response, he straight up said "Yes, it is important" and implied that the questioner was perceptive for questioning Dany's past.

He really said that?

Yes. He did.

Wow... but why would Viserys agree to protect to Dany? Especially if her claim to the throne is better than his own?

The number one reason is he needed a relative to marry off for alliances - how else to secure any sort of decent army? But let's not forget that Aerys made Viserys his heir, disinheriting Rhaegar and all his kids. So whoever Dany was, Viserys was undeniably the true king. But yes, if Viserys has spent his life lying to Dany, it's possible Viserys had a lot of resentment over this, and that contributed to his eventual pattern of sadism toward Dany. He was a very complicated character with relatively little impact on the story. Then again, Viserys was six at the time they fled, and we don't know if he even accompanied Rhaelle to Dragonstone. If she had a stillbirth and Daenerys Doe was swapped in, perhaps Viserys never knew. Then again again, he's old enough to know they definitely didn't grow in Braavos.

I really don't like abandoning my preconceptions for the series, especially on such fundamental points as Jon Snow's parentage.

Again, I am not arguing for you to do that. Yes it is a coincidence that Dany seems to have been born in Dorne and born toward the end of the war, just like Jon. But there are many ways that R+L=J is compatible with Lemongate. I just wanted to get the facts of the Lemongate situation straight so we can jump into what it may really mean - because it is there for a reason.

Is this just you and some other crazy fans? Or is there anyone in the story who actually brings this up, and tells Dany that the House with the Red Door is anything more than a pleasant memory?

Yes. Quaithe. Quaithe all the time. Quaithe tries to get Dany to “remember who she is” and “go back” every chance she gets.

Well, if Lemongate not in there for some lame parentage reveal, then what?

Well, in my opinion Jon is Ned's son through his upbringing, through and through, and I don't know how not-lame any parentage reveal would be, R+L=J included. But beyond that, I don't know what Lemongate really means. Here's some thoughts:

Why did Oberyn try to raise Dorne for Viserys? Did he and Doran have Viserys in his possession - perhaps in Lemonwood?

Why has GRRM written the Sealord of Braavos as a man on his deathbed, so he will never be able to confirm the supposed marriage pact or any sheltering of Daenerys?

Why did Leyton Hightower freak out the same year Dany and Viserys were kicked out of the House with the Red Door? Was that the year he learned about Aegon, and suddenly realized he'd been sheltering the wrong Targaryen the entire time?

Anyway, these are obviously all frequently asked questions whenever this subject comes up, but the instant rejection it’s met with (even more than Tyrion Targaryen) usually prevents clarifications being made for people. I really, really would appreciate it if we could just accept the Lemongate/Braavosi climate contradiction, and extrapolate from there. All theories, and any other questions you may have, are welcome! I hope this post was at the very least informative, and hopefully minimally offensive. Thank you for reading!

TL;DR: Lemongate is the simple, irrefutable fact that Dany's House with the Red Door was not in Braavos. This does NOT mean R+L=D, and it does NOT disqualify R+L=J. However, it IS a clue of some importance, as confirmed by George himself. Let's start by accepting that, and work from there. What other twists could Dany's false childhood be leading up to?

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