#interactions : sansa & jeyne p

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

This escalated a lot, (which was a good distraction from everything so I'm taking that as a good thing), so now I have to give:

Warnings: Discussions and mentions of all the horrible things we warn for in Theon's Plotline, particularly the ones about depersonhood, sexual violence, casual violence, classism, and so on and so on + a few suicide jokes and links to artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape.

I moved a few weeks ago and haven't been able to unpack because I got injured during the moving and my other arm is also fucked up because of something else that happened this year and today I finally got to clean around and actually do stuff and arrange my room and I started with my book shelf, which obviously means I didn't actually do much because I just started rereading whatever book I hadn't seen in a while got to my hands. And after realising that I certainly have a type for narratives and characters I started thinking about Hannah from Until Dawn and how amazing it was to have a dead female character with little to no characterisation that subverted the "haunt the narrative" thing we see in many of the asoiaf girls from the dead ladies club and yeah I am thinking about Kyra again and that is not a good mentality.

Elia and Lyanna are given a personality and a face through those who loved them, they feel real because the pain of those who mourn them feels real. Even Joanna Lannister gets some of that through what little we find out of her.

Kyra is a dead lady but she’s not a member of the Dead Ladies Club™. She doesn’t get that privilege. The only person who thinks of her is Theon and it is not done lovingly.

Kyra has a personality we are not privy too. She is a satellite character that is mentioned exclusively in relation to Theon, even in the exception of Bran's POV. Her existence is conditioned to Theon.

Jeyne Poole, although often called one, isn't a satellite character. From the very beginning of the story she is already a presence in multiple POV character's lives, even if her role in the story and her characterisation is weak; She is Sansa's friend, Arya's bully, even Catelyn mentions her and in relation to Robb, but we don't ever see her interacting with her father and none of those characters seems very concerned of her well-being. I don't even know if Ned was planning on sending her with Arya & Sansa or if she was supposed to stay with her father. She later ascends a bit by becoming a secondary but fundamental character in Theon's POV and the Northern plot.

Kyra however is a blank page with a name. This isn't meant as something derogatory. I still have flashbacks of my 2016 experience in this fandom and the way the only kyra stan I ever met would wage a war on jeyne p fans. This isn't my intention.

With exception of Theon there are four other characters that are mentioned to have interacted with her.

Bessa, another serving wench who is implied to have participated on a threesome with her and Theon some time before Bran V, AGOT (Oooh she and Theon were bi4bi!)

Wex Pyke, is mentioned to have slept at the foot of Theon's bed, a bed on which Kyra slept as well. (Oooh Dog imagery and the implied possible witnessing of rape!)

Ramsay Snow...not going to write that. We all know what happened.

Ben Bones, "[...] Even if we do escape, Lord Ramsay will hunt us down, him and Ben Bones and the girls." generalised statement by Theon during his escape with Jeyne. Ben Bones isn't mentioned in relation to Kyra and him being caught during their failed escape.

These aren't even brief versions of her connections, I'm reaching out with many of them.

What else do we know about her?

Ok. She is a serving wench and probably works at the Smoking Log (Source: Bran)

She blushes easily and seems to be embarrassed by public talks of her sex life (Source: Theon)

She seems like an eager lover and seemed to be excited when Theon first took her to Winterfell (Source: Theon)

She had never been at the castle before (Source: Theon)

She acted as the big spoon as they slept together (Source: Theon)

She still refers to Theon as "M'lord" during early ACOK, even if the aforementioned positioning of the two would have us believe there might be more emotional intimacy or closeness between the two (Source: Theon)

Theon raped her (Source: Theon)

Ramsay possibly raped her (Source: Ramsay saying he wanted to bed her)

She was taken prisoner with the other women and children who were at Winterfell after Ramsay sacked the castle. (Source: Theon)

At some point she managed to set herself free, stole the keys to Theon's cell, liberated him, asked him to help her back to Winterfell and failed (Source: Theon)

She threw a rock at Ramsay when he caught her and Theon again, and missed by a foot (Source: Theon)

She was mauled to death by hounds (Source: Theon)

Ramsay named a hound meant to kill other women during future hunts after her (Source: Theon)

He had run before. Years ago, it seemed, when he still had some strength in him, when he had still been defiant. That time it had been Kyra with the keys. She told him she had stolen them, that she knew a postern gate that was never guarded. "Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." And so he had. The gaoler was dead drunk in a puddle of wine, with his breeches down around his ankles. The dungeon door was open and the postern gate had been unguarded, just as she had said. They waited for the moon to go behind a cloud, then slipped from the castle and splashed across the Weeping Water, stumbling over stones, half-frozen by the icy stream. On the far side, he had kissed her. "You've saved us," he said. Fool. Fool. It had all been a trap, a game, a jape. Lord Ramsay loved the chase and preferred to hunt two-legged prey. All night they ran through the darkling wood, but as the sun came up the sound of a distant horn came faintly through the trees, and they heard the baying of a pack of hounds. "We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. Within the hour, they were taken. One dog knocked him to the ground, and a second bit Kyra on the leg as she scrambled up a hillside. The rest surrounded them, baying and snarling, snapping at them every time they moved, holding them there until Ramsay Snow rode up with his huntsmen. He was still a bastard then, not yet a Bolton. "There you are," he said, smiling down at them from the saddle. "You wound me, wandering off like this. Have you grown tired of my hospitality so soon?" That was when Kyra seized a stone and threw it at his head. It missed by a good foot, and Ramsay smiled. "You must be punished." Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. She brought them down on us, he thought. If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

A few things:

1)

2) Kyra's own involvement

I've often seen people take Theon's inner thoughts as a fact. Most of us are convinced that this was all something Ramsay planned all along, that any possible escape was frustrated from the very beginning. I have often even seen fan works in which Kyra knows and tells Theon that Ramsay is planning to hunt them, but when looking closer to the text I find it difficult to believe that everything was a set up. In Theon's memories he mentions how the gaoler was drunk and had his breeches down, which I think implies that maybe it was Kyra who deliberately planned this. That maybe it was her who orchestrated him getting frunk and eventually also had sex with him, perhaps to get closer and take the keys. "She knew a poster gate that was never guarded" also implies that she wasn't held prisoner in the same way Theon was, but maybe was set up to become a slave/servant like Arya at Harrenhall and spent enough time roaming "free" to notice such things. If this was the case and it was her plan instead of Ramsay (who might or might not have maybe set up her environment and conditioned her thoughts of escape) then I think we can maybe add some other traits to her characterisation; we can assume she is observant, resilient and very brave.

3) I wanted to name this section "The Kiss" but then Klimt came to mind so we are naming it Frame 00:09:31 and Frame 00:09:38 of Belladonna of Sadness (tw the links for artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape)

There is often speculation going on whether the lack of something textual in these books can be seen as proof for something else. Canon romantic Jon/Sansa and the idea that Dany considers the Dothraki subhuman are often backed up by this sort of thought process (I admittedly don't believe in any of the aforementioned examples) but I don’t think we’ve ever seen it used in cases like that of Kyra, where I personally find it more fitting. Particularly when it comes to that scene and how Theon doesn't describe her response. I have always seen people take this as something reciprocal and sometimes even beautiful, and Theon internally chastising himself as he thinks of it is often attributed to thinking there was a chance of escape, when it could as well be him chastising himself because he kissed her without really considering how frightening the entire situation must have been for her. Her reasoning for setting him free is that he knows how to go back, not that she loves him or has forgive him. She is said to tremble as she pleads for help, her face is pale, and I can't help but wonder if part of her fear also came from having to beg her rapist to accompany her in her escape.

Based on her throwing a stone at Ramsay, who probably raped her in the past, I like to believe that when he kissed her she screamed, bit Theon and pushed him away.

4) The Girl

There are a few things in that text about Theon & Kyra that in hindsight remind me of Theon & Jeyne.

Some of it is relatively obvious and I have mentioned it in the past, such as the

"You've saved us," he said. - Reek I, ADWD

"You saved me," Jeyne had whispered, - Theon I, TWOW

and

"We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, [...] If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

"Stay close to me," Jeyne said. "Don't leave me." "I will be right beside you," Theon promised - Theon I, ADWD

but also

"Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." - Reek I, ADWD

He put a finger to her lips. "We can talk about that later. You need to be quiet now. Come with us. With me. We will take you away from here. Away from him." - Theon I, ADWD

and

Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. - Reek I, ADWD

The eyes of the bride were brown. Big and brown and full of fear. It was not right that she should look to him for rescue.  - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

Overall my perception of things tells me that there was a drastic change in Theon's character after her death. It is him who this time has comed up with a plan and has to beg/repeatedly ask for someone else to accompany him. Something I find peculiar is how he describes fear being visible through their eyes and the sight of it makes him feel guilt over his lack of agency.

When comparing his behaviour during the failed escape and the flight we see that he no longer plans on leaving Jeyne in order to escape by himself (and we see him prove that during TWOW when he comments on how her ribs broke so HE CARRIED HER jdsfskdjfnsdkjf aren't you supposed to be emaciated???). And while I find that a very noble development, as I consider salvation to be symbiotic, it leads me to wonder:

5) The AU

So many fanworks often depict Theon holding her hand and going ahead as they run, it's a beautiful image but it doesn't follow into what the canon is telling us.

Kyra being the active one in this event, her having to be the one who not only approaches Theon with thoughts of escape but also begs for his help, implying he might have been hesitant at first, she being the one who refuses to leave him although he is set off on their(/his?) chances of a successful escape being higher if they part ways, all this points to him probably not wanting to hold her hand through it, much less lead her through his same path.

And then I think of Theon's promise

The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. - Reek I, ADWD

Would he? Would he have returned with a host if ironborn to get her? I don't think he would have. I don't think he was consciously lying to her or that he would just forget of her and leave with no remorse and never think of her again. I think it would have become inconvenient to return and he would have told himself it is impossible and she would haunt him nonetheless, but what consolation is that for her?

If he had miraculously managed to get to his sister or to Dagmer Cleftjaw, had miraculously managed to rapidly heal and regain his strength, would he have been able to get himself a host of loyal ironborn that would follow him far far far into the land, away from the realms of he who dwells beneath the waves, just to save some random girl he used to bed? Ad given how emotionally constipated is, how introverted, how he rarely displays vulnerability, what could he have said in order to change their mind?

Even her physical appearance, something that Theon, a somewhat libidinous young man, might have remarked on, is omitted. She doesn't have thick auburn hair, which could have made some readers use her as "proof" for him being "psychosexually" (another word most people in here don't know how to define but will use regardless) attracted to Robb/Sansa/Cat. The eyes of the girl aren't "big and brown" for me and a few other delusional people to claim as "foreshadowing" for a future romance. There aren't any mentions of her having a sharp nose that could have made us think of her as a semblance of his own family back at the Islands. There is nothing. She is nothing.

Sometimes we readers attempt to give closure to Kyra through fan work; I have seen art depicting her as a ghost "forgiving" Theon, there are fics in which Theon takes care of the hound that was named after her or (I am guilty of this too) him taking care of Jeyne is somehow seen by the narrative as atonement for his past mistreatment of Kyra. None of these works are inherently bad or disrespectful and I can appreciate what they do and I enjoy many of them (@/ghostlyturncloaks has a very beautiful fic involving Theon and Kyra, the hound), but none of them will give Kyra, the actual Kyra who used to breath and was then killed by hounds, closure because that is simply impossible to do given how she is not a real character compared to those who surround her. When people in this fandom talk about "stanning the girls who suffer/are victims" it is often done either in a holier-than-thou light or in a derogative manner but it never refers to Kyra because Kyra isn't allowed to be a person in the text.

Taking care of Jeyne or the hound won't make things right for her and there are no reasons for her to forgive Theon when Theon refuses to even think of the act with indisputable textual remorse. We can read between the lines and realise that Theon feels guilt, the fact she "and her keys" haunt him is already proof of that, but does he feel guilt for her terrible death, for him raping her, for how little he valued her as a person or for all of these together?

And I don't think that Theon is inherently a bad person for not valuing her and not being interested in her as a person, I think such situations are cruelly casual and rarely intentional. I think most people across their life will come to realise that they should have valued someone more. Our feelings aren't reciprocal and that isn't necessarily a sign of vileness. And, to my shame, I admit that part of my obsession with my unlucky trio of Jeyne, Falia and Kyra is somewhat motivated by my own feelings of depersonalisation and overall worthlessness and irrelevance.

It is difficult to explain, at most I can maybe compare it to the way Dany has managed to appeal to so many woc through her journey. Cersei, Dany, Arya and Sansa are all well written, interesting and profound characters that will go down in history both in and out of universe as such. Kyra won’t, neither will Falia, the Jeynes might have but they weren’t enough and were quickly replaced without many mourning that change in the way we mourn Daenerys' popularised end game as a mad queen or Arya's popularised endgame as a badass assassin without any nuisance. And I can understand why! This anger is purely mine!

With Kyra there is a world to explore, but only as long as Theon is no longer there. We can't give her a respectful characterisation if our only source and voice is that of Theon, if we were to that it would probably be highly ooc. But then again we can't even interact with her without Theon being in the picture. What happened to Bessa? Was she killed during the Winterfell sack? Were they friends? I imagine they were close if the two worked together and also had a threesome. Did she feel fear and maybe a pang of jealousy when she saw her being summoned to the castle to never come back to their inn? Did Kyra have a family? Maybe they were working the fields in the late summer/early autumn and were hoping to see her in winter again. I will be arrogant by referring to the images meme I recently made for her but yeah, Nathaniel Russel's fake fliers you will go down in my memory:

Even something as benign and well meaning as giving her a face, be it by a film/show/comic-adaptation or fan art, is somewhat counterproductive to what I think might have been aimed by the writer through her being a faceless pain. A face can make someone become sympathetic or interesting, meanwhile Kyra is pain unbridled and without any mentioned outer or inner beauty to get us to be invested in her. I might have my headcanons for her, with and without Theon, but I am not meant to have them.

The most common Tumblr tag for the sharing of Kyra related posts is "#kyra and her keys" and although this will be perceived by may as a holier than thou attitude I think it speaks on itself that we readers, the few readers who care enough about Kyra to dedicate a post to her, have decided to refer to her with a concept Theon chose for her. We define her through Theon without any real consideration for her own feelings. "#kyra asoiaf" has about three posts last I checked.

#my thesis was mildly related to all this and now that I know it will never see the light of the day + everything + the kyra image meme #I've been having feelings about her and yeah those aren't nice. #Its weird because officially cerse¡ and d@ny are my favourite female characters but I don't think about them nearly as much as I think abou #kyra of winter town #je¥ne p and w and f@lia #speaking #asoiaf #the narrative didn't doom me it just ditched me

[littlerockerao3]

Dany

Thanks for the ask dear!!!

How I feel about this character:

I love her!!! She’s one of my favorite characters of the series and I’ve always found her POVs to be the most entertaining regarding the plot itself, such as what happens and all the places she visits. She’s really such a lovable and epic character and I miss reading about her so much!

All the people I ship romantically with this character:

Sansa, Jeyne P, Asha and Doreah too tbh. I loved how gentle and caring Dany has been while staying by her side as she was dying. 

My non-romantic OTP for this character:

Anyone???? Anyone literally, I want to see her interact with ANYONE. Mostly I’d be curious to see her with Young Griff and Jon Con, but also with Jon, Bran, Rickon (they should ride dragons together!!!!), I love her friendship with Missandei, I’d love to see her talk with Theon ajakskdjfjgj it would have been super interesting to see her interact with Lady Stoneheart somehow (they both lost a kid after all ahem no I’m not gonna make this sad nope not this time). Also, it’d be really cute to see all the Night Watch’s crew (Jon, Sam, Satin, Grenn, Pyp, Edd) meet her. Let’s be honest she’d be the perfect friend for everyone😌

My unpopular opinion about this character:

I don’t really think she’s going to be a villain? At all? Maybe some people have started to believe this because of what happened in the show but come on, no way. She’s not a villain, she’s not a tyrant and that’s exactly what makes her different from Viserys and Aerys Rhaegar and that’s also exactly why she made it this far. 

One thing I wish would happen/had happened with this character in canon:

Let me think... I wish she didn’t have to be sold to a 30yo at 13 by that piece of shit of a brother she had. Also nope, no Sansa & Dany rivalry, INSTEAD I want them to talk about all the shitty older men who manipulated them and treated them like shit, so that they can recover together and get stronger together :)

#nocheiraia #daenerys Targaryen #ask game

[thefudge]

Who did you ship in GOT and who do you ship now? (If it's changed lol)

good ask! this got long-ish so i’ll include everything after the cut

my OG ships (this includes the books too)

petyr/sansa - absolutely still do and will forever ship this morally ambiguous duo, though i prefer the book version of it. possibly my fave asoiaf/got pair.

jaime/brienne - shipped from the start and nothing’s changed frankly

gendry/arya - see above

jaqen/arya - i will admit the show’s sexy accented jaqen h’ghar may have also played a part in this lol

jon/dany - weirdly, i used to ship this more before the show made them a thing. i used to love AUs where ned sends jon to essos and he becomes part of dany’s khalasar and they meet somehow. i also liked the “romance at a distance” thing where book readers could obviously tell their journeys were being paralleled but they hadn’t met yet, and you’d get poetic wuthering heights-esque scenes like dany hearing a wolf howling on the dothraki plain when jon died, like that always got meeee. the show, i feel, has kind of botched their potential, but i still ship’em, especially their book counterparts.

jon/val (books only) - i know in the books she’s basically a dany-stand-in symbolically (a wildling “princess” with blond hair, come on), but i loooove their dynamic, i love their quiet fondness for each other and i hope they have more scenes together

elia martell/arthur dayne (books only) - the loyal kingsguard and the future king’s wife? SIGN ME THE FUCK UP. a part of me still hopes that GRRM will reveal that arthur secretly loved and pined after elia all his life and was furious on her behalf when rhaegar left her for lyanna. it’s CANON fight me.

arianne martell/arys oakheart (books only) - canon & doomed :(((( it’s the foolhardy kingsguard pining after forbidden princess trope again, but i can’t help it! they’re kind of an interesting subversion of the trope. arianne initially just plans to seduce him and use him, but arys falls for her hard and forgoes his vows for her and she realizes she may have feelings for him too and #imsad because it does not end well. but i live for the angssssst

hyle hunt/brienne (book only) - MAN. THESE TWO. ok so i may ship this almost as much as j/b and i can’t believe i’ve never talked about it.  I LOVE THIS PAIR. it’s exactly my kind of shit and it’s actually pretty similar to j/b. hyle hunt starts off as one of brienne’s bullies who even makes a bet about taking her maidenhead when she’s part of renly’s entourage. per the popular trope, ofc the idiot ends up playing himself. his “mock” wooing of brienne turns into actual wooing, cuz he catches feelings, but it’s played very subtle and brienne still thinks he’s just trying to fool her. by book 4 he’s following her around, trying to help her, he fights by her side and stays with her, trying to keep her safe, BEING SECRETLY IN LOVE WITH HER I MEAN THE DUMBASS LITERALLY ASKS FOR HER HAND IN MARRIAGE AND WHEN SHE SAYS NO HE PRETENDS HE ONLY DID IT BECAUSE SHE’S A HIGH-BORN LADY LIKE PUUUUHLEASE WE ALL KNOW YOU MEANT IT. and all the while you know it’s kind of doomed because brienne only has eyes for jaime, let’s be real. but i have a feeling that, in the event that jaime dies and brienne survives to the end of the series (which is very likely), she might end up with hyle who does honestly seem to love her and would make her happy. like maybe they’re setting him up as substitute (kind of like tormund/brienne on the show, i guess?) BUT ANYWAY. THESE TWO.

OG ships i don’t actively ship anymore but i am still fond of:

tywin/arya - i still totally think that arya stark would have paradoxically made a FANTASTIC lady lannister, but i ship it mainly in the show version where she’s aged up and they actually interact

sandor/arya - have a soft spot for an ambiguous, not quite romantic, not quite friendly bond between them (i mean i wrote fic too)

ned/cersei - i loved the idea of their arranged marriage, of ned having to step in and marry her after the sacking in king’s landing in order to appease tywin. there are some excellent fics based on this premise and i totally recommend because this dynamic is surprisingly rich.

ships that have snuck up on me over the years (mainly thx to fandom):

jon/sansa - really, the fandom has convinced me they could work and they make for an interesting dynamic, especially on the show where jon is sadly…not a very interesting guy but seems to have some edge when he interacts with sansa

jon/missandei - again, folks on tumblr made me realize how amazing this obscure pairing would be. they’re kind of perfect for each other when you think about it and i am writing oneshot

sansa/dany - that chemistry tho! the show is playing them off as adversaries and there is sufficient reason for sansa to be wary of the dragon queen, but i love AUs where they fall in love and the tension between them becomes something else *wink wink*

jaime/arya - fanfic & fandom have sold me on it, especially the show version. i’d add jaime/sansa here, though i think he’d have a bit more chemistry and push and pull with arya (it would be a different version of j/b if you think about it)

ramsay/sansa - gasp! but lemme explain. i always thought that if d&d really wanted to do the jeyne poole plot for theon’s sake and complete sansa’s training in the Vale, the best way to do this would’ve been to show her subtly manipulating ramsay in exactly the same way margaery manipulated joffrey in s3. imagine the parallels! i mean after s4 where we saw sansa walk down the stairs in that goth/sith dress i thought, okay! she’s gonna use her feminine wiles! we’re gonna see her in action! and then she just gets grossly traumatized for no conceivable reason except #shockvalue. imo, they could’ve shown ramsay’s brutality and also sansa’s abilities by having her play into his fantasies and try to skillfully win him over. gods i would’ve loved that shit. and at the end she could’ve still escaped with theon. ANYWAY maybe i’ll write fic

barbrey dustin/petyr baelish (books only) - some of the p/s shippers got me on this one. their backstories have an eerie echo. they both love and hate the starks, barbrey was supposed to marry brandon stark, petyr was almost killed by brandon and brandon also “stole” his love, catelyn. barbrey was jealous of catelyn and claimed brandon loved her (barbrey) and took her maidenhead. so you have two people who essentially wanted the same thing and were fucked over by the same arranged marriage. it’s so complex and cool and there are so many layers you can explore. she’s also scheming and crafty and has a wicked sense of humor, like can you imagine the interactions.

sansa/stannis - there are some AMAZING fics out there where this pairing actually makes a lot of sense, a la richard iii wanting to marry his niece, elizabeth of york. think for instance of him winning the battle of blackwater (as a parallel to the battle of bosworth between richard iii and henry vii) and stannis deciding to marry her to solidify his rule and to also bring the north into the fold. i also love fics where sansa is a little older and ned arranges the marriage between her and stannis. like i said, it’s the fic that rly brought me here

#got ships #asoiaf ships #asoiaf #got #replies

[janiedean]

Modernau Jeyne P looks at how Robb and Jon interact with Sansa (like being adorably protective and giving her lifts to places and the like) and says that she wishes she had older brothers. Theon informs her that once his older brothers hid tuna in his room and he didn’t find it for three weeks despite constantly looking for that awful smell. 🍎

That said, once or twice /Theon/ found himself accidentally playing big brother to Jeyne. Everyone is confused as to when he started being the one who was adorably protective and gives her lifts places and punches assholes (Joffrey) in the face for her. Robb and Jon start teasing by giving him advice on how to be a good big brother. 🍎

D’AWWWWW YES THAT’S ADORABLE ;_________________; I LIKE THIS A LOT 

#pls yesthese two need any happiness #ch: theon greyjoy #ch: jeyne poole #otp: we flew #headcanon tag #anonymous #ask post #my precious son

[oddcoupler222]

I've been following Those Who Wait since the beginning. It's been a wild year, and I love every single chapter more than the last! I am curious, and I understand if you can't or don't want to say, but I was hoping to see what your outline for the fic thus far has been? Do you have bullet points for plot points in each chapter? Basically, how do you do it? I have a hard time actually writing anything with my current outline methods, so I could use advice from an expert :P

It’s definitely been a wild year for TWW (and I’m trying desperately to write faster, I so didn’t expect for it to be a year long endeavor lol).

As far as my writing method goes (though I’m certainly not an expert, but thanks for saying that :) ) - I typically outline not so much in bullet points, but just in giant paragraph rambles?

Either in a word doc or a notebook (because sometimes if I have writer’s block, handwriting out the issue or brainstorming on paper usually works well for me), I just sort of do a loose outline of the general idea for what I want reflected in the chapter?

Like…

 For example (using TWW), my base outline consists somewhat like this:

9 - S pov - Sansa decides she can’t get so hung up on Margaery and decides to go on a date, but can only think of Marg on the date. In the end, she goes to M’s apartment to have sex.

10 - M pov - Margaery’s response to Sansa’s sex suggestion: yes she wants Sansa, but No she Should Not give in to temptation bc Sansa deserves better.

They DO end up having sex, but Margaery only touches Sansa, no reciprocation!! In her mind “it’s fair”

11 - S pov - Sansa is upset and MORTIFIED after having sex with M and is super avoidant. Margaery surprises her, though, and seeks her out to talk and set things right between them “as friends.”

Hmm I think I want some Stark fam interaction, it’s time for more, esp so Cat can see that Sansa is upset and continue that arc of her finding out about Sansa and Marg.

-

and this goes on throughout the whole story. And then I usually go back at random points or even throughout different days or weeks and will add in and elaborate when I get more ideas and question myself so that I get a better picture of what I want to write.

So I would take the chapters I just gave you my brief outline on and be like:

9 - S pov - does Sansa go on dates? Who is she going out with? and throughout this, I land on the idea of speed dating and Elia Sand! But does she date Elia? No I can’t imagine Sansa discussing her feelings for Margaery while she’s actually on a date, so she needs to have the Discussion that leads her to Margaery’s apartment while she’s out on her dating night, but not actually on a date.

10 - M pov - plan Sansa and Margaery’s back and forth, outline Margaery’s thought process -

why  is she so adamant about saying no to Sansa? After they have sex, does Sansa spend the night or does Sansa leave right away? Hmm I don’t think Sansa is going to spend the night, because I know that Sansa is going to be embarrassed after Margaery doesn’t let Sansa touch her. But MArgaery doesn’t know that! What’s going to happen that allows Sansa to leave to go home and be Upset but that Margaery isn’t really in a prepared state to catch up to her, because if she was able to, Margaery WOULD want to follow her. Oh, Loras and Renly can show up! And then Sansa will have time to be alone and process, unbeknownst to Margaery, and thus leaving her (and the reader!) unsure of Sansa’s thoughts but knowing she is upset.

11 - S pov - Sansa’s entire thought process and emotional processes about what happened the night before and why she is upset. Show that she is avoiding MArgaery - how much is too much? How am I going to bring in the Stark fam - Skype is good because I want Cat to SEE Margaery (oh, Marg can come in while Sansa is skyping her mom!). But Margaery can’t just walk into Sansa’s apartment and surprise Sansa there, bc Jeyne would never allow it. So where is Sansa that Margaery can walk in and surprise her? Her office at school.

Sooo essentially: I do a loose outline that summarizes what I want to happen in each chapter and then elaborate and flesh out on how I can feasibly get to where I want to be. A lot of the time, it’s a huge mess because I have a lot of ideas or dialogues that I want to be included and need to be worked in.

But really (and this isn’t super helpful) I think that the outline process is really what works best for YOU a lot of the time? Like, I personally can’t work on something unless I know what is the point/where I am trying to end up. So I always know the end point and then I’ll go back and add details in a rambling paragraph.

Haha I might be of more help if you want to message me about what your current outline methods are and work with you from there…

#writing process #those who wait