#people as genuine as Laudna are so rare

[utilitycaster]

but you do have to admit that you write your 2k meta's mostly because you want (negative) attention? otherwise I don't understand why you are not writing more of your faves instead?

Sure! I can explain why I wrote this piece, which I assume is the reason you're asking this now.

I wrote it because I naturally had thoughts about the group dynamics of Bells Hells after the episode and started thinking about why this group is so disconnected this far into the campaign when, for example, the Mighty Nein, who had far more friction and conflict early on in the campaign, were positively ride or die by this point. I also really did genuinely find the degree of pressure that Imogen and Laudna have been putting on Fearne to be excessive and had been quietly thinking about it since episode 75 - they were the ones to initially make a big deal about "Emperor and Empress" (the fact that Ashton mentioned the party's positive reinforcement of the shard's retrieval being a factor in their choice is relevant here), I was reminded by someone else regarding Laudna's immediate shutdown of Fearne's attempt to tell the truth in episode 77, and then they called her out in front of everyone after she had expressed that she didn't want it to Morri. It made a clear pattern that I felt was interesting to explore, and in doing so I started asking myself if there were other patterns of behavior. I linked to someone else's post as well in there that talked about how Imogen and Laudna pretty much always act together in group discussions in my post because that was also an inspiration, and I've also talked a lot in the past about how Imogen and Laudna rarely bring up their own sources of conflict with each other, so the fact that their accusations towards Fearne are in the same scene where Imogen expresses disgust about Delilah's presence also is very relevant to their general group dynamics, since their own relationship with each other is very central to how they interact with the group.

I do write about my favorite characters as well. I wrote pretty extensively about Ashton after episode 78, as well as a bit about their conversation with Orym, but Ashton just had their big moment of explosion and I need to let that simmer or something else to happen before I have any longer posts. I've also, if not written anything myself, reblogged a lot of great posts about Chetney's fantastic reveal which I think tied up that whole exercise beautifully with a truth that was not a passive-aggressive accusation of others nor a self-flagellation but a realization of his own behaviors as well as an explanation to the group without expecting anything in return. In talking about the shard I did touch on my main feelings about Fearne in this situation but again I think I need to see how she actually reacts to the information she received here to actually have meta of substance, rather than "oh, interesting." And you can go through my archives if you'd like to see more; I'm usually pretty good about tagging by character.

But also: I like writing criticism, specifically. It is fun for me. I find that writing helps me arrange my ideas and understand them better, and sometimes I even change my opinion when I revisit the text or find my argument doesn't hold together on an intellectual level, even if I feel something emotionally. I've changed my mind about characters before through writing meta! Sometimes more positively, sometimes more negatively, but it happens, because the act of writing meta, if you do so well, is an act of interrogating your own pre-existing opinions and making sure they make sense to people who aren't you.

I also think there's value in writing things that aren't universally positive. Again, it forces you to actually think through what isn't working for you or what you dislike or what traits characters have that you think are causing problems for people around them rather than just saying UGH THIS SUCKS. But also, writing up how you'd fix a plot you don't like or how you'd resolve a conflict requires you have empathy for the creators or for the characters. Sometimes, even if a piece isn't, in your opinion, good, writing criticism of it helps you understand why a creator may have made that choice you didn't like. You can disagree or dislike something while still respecting it, and making yourself explain it to other people is a really good way to process your own feelings rather than stewing in them. I find people who never express any negativity openly are often deeply resentful and unpleasant and passive-aggressive. Indeed, that's arguably the whole point of that honesty exercise! This party keeps trying to smooth things over and so a lot of valid concerns or complaints they have about each other have since metastasized into something far more hurtful.

I can't speak for everyone, but a lot of meta writers write meta because it's genuinely a fun hobby for them. When I was writing my piece about Dimension 20's genre experiments I stayed up later than I should have several times because it was interesting and I wanted to make sure I didn't forget how I was planning out the piece. I like writing a lot, and I've always preferred to write essays and criticism to fiction - I like to think I have a knack for the former that doesn't come as naturally for the latter. My brain jumps to analysis more easily than the invention of plot.

If you don't like the things I chose to write about, that's completely valid. But I'm not doing it for negative attention. I'm doing it because it's enjoyable for me. How you respond to it and how it makes you, specifically, feel, doesn't enter into my consideration. It's 2k words because that's how long it took me to say what I was thinking and it's about Imogen and Laudna's effect on the group dynamic as I understand it because that's what I was thinking about since it was very present in this episode, and I wrote it because I like writing.

Hopefully that explains it!

#answered #Anonymous #cr tag

[captainofthetidesbreath]

This post is way longer than I intended it to be, and for that I apologize, but: really, as far as the discourse is concerned, whether Laudna is resurrected or remains dead (and what people's interests and preferences about that are) has become totally irrelevant. It has become apparent to me that real point of contention in the discourse is: "Is it wrong to believe or suggest that permanent death can and does still happen, even to player characters, when there exists magic that can raise the dead?"

It is fascinating that some people assert that "resurrection magic exists in D&D and Exandria" naturally means "resurrection magic means that the inherent nature of death in Exandria is not permanent". It's a sentiment I've seen in multiple semi-popular posts. I've seen another post go as far as "if there is the ability to fix death, then all death is unnecessary tragedy, and it is wrong to not fix it as soon as possible". There's even some going "it's wrong to suggest that permanent death can happen to the heroes, and permanent death should never be allowed to happen to them". At least one person that I've seen believes that acknowledging that death can be permanent in Exandria suggests an unhealthy hang-up about death that needs professional help.

The existence of such magic does not actually logically lead to these. Frankly, I think some with such strong and negative emotional responses to the concept that permanent death can still occur in a world with resurrection magic need to examine why they get so, so angry when it is stated that resurrection magic does not necessarily automatically eliminate sudden, unnatural, young death. Why is it so infuriating to see other people acknowledge that permanent death canonically can and does still exist alongside this magic? (Don't come telling me about it. This is mostly rhetorical and, if one does decide to reflect, that is a private reflection I, a stranger, don't need to be involved in.)

There's a curious sentiment as well that "well, it's fantasy", asserting that the genre itself means that death does not need to ever happen. (Genuinely, I am personally hard-pressed to name a fantasy work that does not, in some way, involve permanent death, particularly fantasy written for adults.) This argument also ignores that CritRole has never been a fantasy that treats death as inherently temporary. CritRole has in fact made it possible for otherwise generally auto-succeed rituals to fail, and the lore of the world actively cautions that resurrection magic is rare, risky, and likely to fail. Every time, margin for failure increases. Performing the highest resurrection magics is held as one of the world's oldest heresies. So, that appeal to genre does not apply: Exandria considers it risky, even unwise, to mess with death.

Rhetorical question, what IS it about the sentiment of "permanent death CAN still happen in a world where resurrection magic exists" that makes some so genuinely angry that they start to believe that this statement and similar are wrong, sick, twisted, and fucked up to say. (All actual adjectives I've seen.) Some are behaving as if acknowledging that permanent death still exists in a world with resurrection magic is sacrilegious. Again, rhetorical question: WHY does the statement that resurrection magic does not make impossible permanent death instill such fury?

At this point, it is wholly irrelevant to the discourse whether Laudna remains dead or is brought back—that is entirely outside of my current personal concern here. What has been illustrated is that some are just SO incapable of handling even the theoretical idea that she MIGHT remain dead, simply because they believe that the existence of (emphatically: canonically rare and risky) resurrection magic inherently means that it is morally wrong to acknowledge player characters can permanently die. Their logic is that the existence of the magic alone automatically means that death should not be and is not allowed, thus, they interpret any acknowledgment that permanent death (canonically) can and may still happen as verboten. One is not allowed to suggest that permanent death still exists simply because resurrection magic also exists, the logic apparently being that the mere existence of such magic forbids any player character from dying permanently.

That belief that "resurrection magic === it is wrong to believe that permanent death is still possible for a protagonist" is a much more fascinating thing and much more central to the discourse than Laudna's ultimate fate—and much more concerning.

#Critical Role things #CR spoilers #CR #cr meta #long post for ts #this is good to reblog as evidenced by the fact that I haven't locked it—just know that I am NOT arguing or discussing further on this post

[undead-knick-knack]

Hi :)

You are one of the only people I really see on here that posts anything about ashton/laudna (and your posts always make me laugh) and I was wondering when you first started shipping the two of them?

Personally, I started to become fond of their relationship in episode 2 when Laudna first introduced Pate to the group. Ashton was so entertained and expressed his interest and how he never wanted it to end. It stood out to me that everyone else was in a way holding back (or outwardly expressing) their discomfort, with Imogen even saying that she never got used to it, even after two years of traveling together. It made me happy that Laudna had at least one person in the group who wasn't immediately put off by her creepy nature. Ashton and Laudna were already two of my favorite characters and I love their dynamic.

I also never really understood why this ship is not as popular as some of the other ships. I'm not bashing other ships at all, but the disinterest in this relationship is interesting when looking at it through the lens of someone who has been shipping them most of the time. idk it just makes sense to me.

i just love how surprisingly honest and healthy their relationship is and I just wanted to know your thoughts.

TLDR: I would love to know when you started shipping Ashton and Laudna and some of your general thoughts on their realtionship? Love the posts <3

Oh this is so sweet!! I’m glad my tomfoolery makes you laugh <3 

As for when I started shipping them, that was way back in March of this year (I rarely start shipping characters right away, hella impressed how early you were on this shit), I had enjoyed their dynamic before that but what really got me on board with them as a ship was this post by svartalfhild (which they’ve expanded on since initial posting). They did a great job articulating and consolidating everything I like about Ashton/Laudna 😊 

As for what /I/ like about them personally, that includes the whole Brick Shithouse/Breakable Bird-Boned Waif dynamic, most recently highlighted in the latest episode of Ashton (the barbarian) making sure to look out for Laudna (the squishy spellcaster) during the fight with Werewolf Chetney  I also enjoy their contrasting personalities. Ashton’s exterior is very rough but actually has a heart of gold, while Laudna is the outwardly happy-go-lucky type but has a lot of darkness hiding behind that bubbly exterior. Neither shy away from the other’s interior or exterior and I feel like they help bring their more hidden aspects out of each other for the better  They both have a similar background of “physically fucked up after traumatic experience” (I even made a meme about that lol) which I think gives them a pretty unique point of common ground  Something you talked about was how Ashton genuinely enjoys who fucking weird and out there Laudna is, with Pate being a great of that. While everyone is horrified or just put off by something Laudna created as a coping mechanism to keep herself going crazy with loneliness, Ashton thinks it’s incredible, exemplified by him getting Pate a suit and never hesitating to interact directly with Pate  And something I mentioned to a friend a couple months back was how Ashton is touch adverse (this was before we knew about his chronic pain), whereas Laudna likes to be physically close with others. Ashton only seemed to be ok with physical touch when it’s violent, ie not wanting a massage at the spa but diving head first into a fight at the Ball, so I figured Laudna being so touchy feely would be great in getting Ashton to accept positive physical touch. But then even after learning that his touch-aversion is the result of chronic pain from his Kintsugi scars, I still think Laudna could be a positive source of physical touch for him since her cold dead skin could bring some pain relief for him 

So yeah while this isn’t /everything/ I like about their relationship and dynamic (I’m not the best at right meta or articulating my thoughts like this lol), these are definitely some of the main things I love about them 😊 

I am hoping as more time passes and Ashton and Laudna have more moments together, more people will catch on to them and join in on this fun little ship, I think the lack of interest or just general awareness stems from a lot of attention being focused elsewhere   Tho by-gods am I going to annoy this fandom with my Tombstone shenanigans and maybe even pspsps a few into joining us 😁    But anyway, I’m so glad you like my shitposts (even the ridiculously cringy ones 😁) and here’s to The Punk King and Undead Goth Queen of our hearts🖤 

#anon #anonymous #tombstone #gravestone #laudmoore #ashna #ashton x laudna #laudna x ashton #cr meta #courtesy of me

[helianthus-hellion]

For the ask game all of them

6. are you good at picking up on when people are flirting with you, or do you tend to be more oblivious?

30. who's your favorite sapphic character?

31. LEAST favorite sapphic character?

32. tell a funny story about something really gay you've done.do you get crushes/fall in love easily?

35. if you could tell your younger sapphic self anything, what would it be?

(as per your rec I am listening the Ninefox Gambit audiobook :3 )

i. am glad u sent the questions along with the numbers bc i do not think i have reblogged any sapphic ask games??? sounds fun tho. anyway uhh

6. oh i'm terrible at it. i miss it when people do, and then sometimes i will think someone might be flirting with me and am wrong so i just don't fucking know at all.

30. i've never been good at choosing favorites for anything ever but since u mentioned ninefox gambit i will say cheris i guess?? also a big fan of vi from arcane, laudna from critical role, and Every Dyke In Dykes To Watch Out For.

31. i'm sure there are some i don't like but i am drawing a blank rn tbh

32. that is either two questions or u forgot a number. anyway u would genuinely be better off asking @chondrichthyesrain for funny gay stories of mine but a recent gay thing that i did was when i went to get my first T shot at my doctor's office i wore a shirt from a concert i went to with my partner last fall and brought a snail shell fossil in my pocket to represent angela so it was like they were with me when i got the shot. all of the gay things i remember doing are more sappy than funny, sorry 😅

32.5 i never know how to answer this question bc i tend to have a hard time differentiating crushes from friendship? especially bc i'm polyam so i can't even use "would date this person above this other person" as a marker. i have a lot of friends i would kiss and go on dates with, and i'll see a cute stranger on the bus with a cool keychain or whatever and fall a little bit in love with them, but i feel like those things are different? i get Small Crushes quickly and easily but they're like. fleeting or not very strong. Bigger Crushes i get more rarely.

35. stop dating boys in high school just bc u feel like u wanna date someone. it's not worth it. ur taste in men is often terrible anyway.

#tiny answers #ask game

[stardustedknuckles]

Actually I’m not done being sad about Imogen’s life growing up alone with her dad because until we’re told otherwise, I choose to believe he did his very best at the severe disadvantage of having a kid who could see every impulse parents are meant to hide. Parents resent their kids sometimes. It’s normal and not in and of itself damaging. What matters is that you never make them feel responsible for your emotions and you take the actions that are best for them, setting aside your own shit because that’s your job. They don’t need to know what you really think sometimes - often, even. You might not give a rip what new thing they’re into but you support it and them because it’s important that they be encouraged. Even when all you want to do is leave them at the store for an hour for some peace, you don’t. You figure it out, and they need never know.

Imogen’s dad never got to be that, not once her powers started. Every flash of anger brought on by the grief of having to go this alone, every time he looked at Imogen and saw her mother, every time he wished she was here because he didn’t know what to do with their daughter, every time he asked why this had to happen to her (or to him)...Imogen heard it. This raw, unfiltered blast of what it means to be a person, to think and exist and set yourself aside and make choices.

It’s easy to hear that he kept his distance even within their shared isolation and condemn him for leaving her be, but Imogen learned compassion from somewhere. Imogen seems at peace with the way things had to be even if she shouldn’t have had to be. She would have seen everything her father didn’t want her to, everything he couldn’t hide in the name of being the dad she deserved, and that means she would have seen what he wanted to be for her too. The ideals he aspired to, the life he’d wanted for her, the persistent sense of failure only even slightly mitigated by the fact of him being with her out in the middle of nowhere anyway. Imogen shouldn’t have had to see how much her dad missed people and how much he resented this curse on her (the curse, specifically, not her). She shouldn’t have been able to see how much this was ruining his life - he should have had the opportunity to hide that from her and be a good dad.

Imogen learned early and hard that love involves doing things you don’t want to for the good of the person you care about. Love must look so different to her, could you imagine? Her father brings her flowers and kisses her forehead and tries really hard to think about horses because she likes them and she deserves a simple moment of kindness. Imogen in turn tries very hard not to listen to the sense of desperation and loss beneath the gesture, the futility he’s trying to overcome for her sake. Sorrow, and sometimes she can’t be sure if it’s on her behalf or not but it’s okay, he’s here and she always feels him trying.

Imogen spends her teens internalizing what it is to be cared for despite, and then one day towards the end she meets a woman who looks at her and thinks Imogen must be the kindest person she’s ever met, someone who cares for her because, and oh - that’s something completely new. She hadn’t known that was possible, and coming to understand why Laudna would find so much value in someone who could read that her intentions match her words does nothing to diminish how soothing it is to have her as a friend. Laudna’s palms are always cool on her forehead when the headaches get bad, and she’s never wishing she didn’t have to comfort Imogen. She’s genuinely happy to be here, no obligation. She doesn’t want to leave. She’ll have to - Imogen hears that too, that Laudna is never able to stay in one place for long - but Imogen’s already decided she can’t go back from this. She can’t lose this.

So they go forth together, unused to being wanted without reservation and both determined to do whatever it takes to keep the other in her life, and they love. It’s not a love anyone else would understand - how could they? - but for once they don’t need anyone else to understand them. They’re enough for each other and more.

#imogen temult #laudna #not sure what exactly broke the floodgates in my mind since none of that came from last night's ep #but here we are and I have feelings #how on earth could you expect romance to make a damn lick of sense to someone who can hear thoughts and intentions #love and care would look so different to her #so much more powerful in all of its facets #people as genuine as Laudna are so rare #and this is also why she's going to get along so well with fearne #bc fearne is both a guileless creature like Laudna and someone who thinks and acts literally at the same moment #sometimes she skips the first steps #but it's okay

[utilitycaster]

I think the shallow feeling of Laudna/ Imogen also comes from how they talk too and about each other. The gnarlrock conflict felt so much more real than all the “Imogen is very competent and powerful” and “Laudna is so comforting,” there’s nooooot really anything else there? There’s no annoyance or teasing or boredom or Anything, just vague softness. And actual roommates or lovers or siblings aren’t soft and sweet all the time, so Imogen and Laudna come off as people who haven’t actually spent much time together.

So I want to talk about the Bjork song "Hyperballad". It's a great song musically which is why I originally liked it, but the premise of the song is that, within a relationship, there will be weird and messy parts of one's self that need to be expressed elsewhere, outside of that relationship, so that you can be both your entire self but also part of a couple, with the compromises that entails. Anyway, I love this song and I feel like that aspect of this relationship - either as friends or romantically - is entirely missing.

What gets me is that not only is there so little teasing or minor annoyances (and on the rare occasions we have seen them, even when it's been in less direct conflict - think Imogen being kind of impatient and annoyed at Laudna thinking her dolls birthed the gnarlrock - it's felt like a breath of air); it's that they both always automatically go to each other for everything, but won't address the darker issues, and seem to have no outlets for all of the messier aspects of themselves. It's again why Ashton calling Laudna out directly on her bullshit feels more vivid and alive than tens of conversations with Imogen in which neither is willing to risk asking any real, piercing questions. It's why the conversation in the storage room beneath Imahara Joe's is such a strong Imogen scene, because she doesn't have to spend the whole time correcting Laudna's misconceptions but instead actually has to think about and answer to whether she feels she's a hero or something to be feared.

I do keep going back to prior campaigns for comparison but I think that makes sense here. Part of why the Nein worked is that, for example, Jester and Veth became friends very quickly and were able to explore some of the sillier and more chaotic aspects of themselves there, which not only made them much more realized but also pushed Fjord and Caleb to mesh with the group more, whereas Imogen and Laudna are kind of a static island within a group that is both tied to them and also forcibly distanced from them. Or going back further, this is why the twins' respective romantic relationships (and Percy and Keyleth's friendship) make so much sense. The twins love each other deeply but there is a disconnect in what they understand about each other, and their romantic partners, respectively, do understand; but also it's valuable for, say, Vex to have someone in her life who's like "I see how you relate to Percy, and I genuinely believe you are very good for each other, but you are fucked up in the same way and you should be aware of that," just as it's valuable for Vax to have someone in his life who serves as an example of the virtues of self-preservation.

If I may: I think there's sometimes a belief in fandom that having an all-consuming relationship with nothing left outside of it is the goal, rather than a cautionary tale at best and a recipe for despair at worst. I also think there's a bizarrely prevalent belief that being openly protective of a person, in the sense of "I don't want you to get hurt because I care for you," is bad; but constantly trying to protect someone's feelings through never addressing difficult topics is good, even as it stunts their ability to grow as a person. The most obvious parallel from past campaigns I can think of is how Caleb specifically avoided telling the clerics about his past for fear of how they, Jester especially, would respond to it. And it's an understandable impulse, to want people to think the best of you; but it's also terribly difficult and sad to be around someone who thinks you have everything under control when you feel like you're drowning. I suppose from a certain point of view it's romantic to say "I love this person so much that I have to hide absolutely essential aspects of myself out of fear they won't love me back"; but in the 19th century doomed-by-the-narrative gothic romance Bronte sisters sort of way, not in a "this is a romance and they are in love and will live happily ever after" way. I want to see people who finally can be honest with each other, not people who can only engage with each others' masks.

So that's my problem; Imogen and Laudna do genuinely have potential if they can find a way to be honest with each other, but we're almost 40 episodes in and the relationship feels identical to how it did in episode 1, which is to say, recent roommates who might have crushes on each other, rather than best friends of 2 years.

#answered #pawthorn #hilarious side effect of C3: me revisiting Percy and Keyleth's friendship and finally understanding it more #cr discourse

[utilitycaster]

Ok I’m curious, what *are* your top like, 2 ships from each campaign? I’d love to hear more about what you feel constitutes a compelling relationship/theoretical relationship for CR

Ok I'm not sure what this is in reference to but:

Campaign 1: Percy/Vex and Keyleth/Vax

Campaign 2: truly cannot pick from among the canon ships we got so I'm going to say Fjord/Jester and Beau/Yasha just because I liked those ones the longest

Campaign 3: Currently, Chetney/Fearne and Imogen/Laudna. If this question was prompted by this post then yes, said post is in part about Imogen/Laudna, a ship that only I am correct in my feelings about. The other two ships I had in mind are not CR ships.

As for what constitutes something compelling:

In case it's not clear from my C2 answer: in actual play specifically, I will always prefer canon ships unless someone can prove beyond reasonable doubt that something fucked up happened behind the scenes. Because the character's actor is also their originator and, essentially, writer, I am not interested in the ship becoming canon if the people involved aren't all in.

For what it's worth, the (requited) romances that occur in a well-made written work will support the plot or themes of said work, and the choice to make a romance unrequited is itself a significant part of character commentary (C2 also did a fantastic job with this; the ships that were confirmed to be one-sided say a ton of interesting things about the character who had those feelings). What this all means is that if I'm explicitly shipping against canon for a finished work, it means either I don't think it's well-written, or it's a case of people being unable or unwilling to depict gay ships but providing the subtext. (On the other hand I do occasionally have 'I don't want this to be canon but it's fun to think about' and that's just like, its own separate thing, but that's relatively rare for me).

In case it's also not clear from my answers: my absolute favorite ship dynamic is people who have the same or similar flaws, who see those flaws in someone else and still love that person, and in doing so, can respect themselves; this is true on some level for all the Campaign 2 canon ships, and very much so for Perc'ahlia as well. That also means I like ships to be earned through conflict and development in the narrative; the course of true love never did run smooth. The course of really boring bad writing does often run far too smooth.

Also in actual play my rule of thumb is "do the shippers seem to genuinely like both characters involved, or is the ship patently BLORBO/uhhh whatstheirname." Obviously this isn't always true (*cough* that's one of the scenarios the post I linked is about *cough*) but like...without going into details, several of the most popular ships in C2 that didn't become canon were noticeably one-sided in whom the shippers actually cared about as a character, and who they felt should become a mostly voiceless appendage thereof, and that was a real turnoff. It's not the only reason I lost interest, because I do try to consider canon over fanon/fandom, but it definitely accelerated my loss of interest.

In terms of theoretical/not-yet-confirmed ships specifically, the main thought process is: "do all involved parties seem into it," and "can I see an interesting potential path forward with this."

#cr tag #tenser's floating discourse