#the unexamined racist biases in this fandom

[thrillhoues]

Since we're being honest

Sterek

OK, the gloves are gonna come off and it's gonna be a long one.

I hate this ship. For many reasons, textual, metatextual, fandom, just because it's been too long.

First, a bit about me, I didn't watch Teen Wolf until after the show ended, like two years afterwards. I thought it was a dumb show with a dumb premise and a weird fandom, but then I realized I'm part of other fandoms, and I should take the time to watch the show at least.

And I'd obviously heard about Sterek. Sterek is such a big ship, in any fandom space it was inescapable. So watching the show for the first time, I was let down by how minimal and uninteresting the interactions between Stiles and Derek felt. Derek had more raw sexual chemistry with Jackson over the first season, with Scott throughout the show, with Liam in that one scene in the gym lockerroom than with Stiles.

So that's my textual reason for not really loving the ship. I felt like other ships and characters would be more interesting paired with Derek - again, I didn't watch in real time so I didn't get invested in "who belongs with who" but rather, "This guy is hot with that guy"

Metatextual: I love a twunk with a muscle guy, I do, but Stiles and Derek are pitched so heteronormatively in stories, and that's a result of a lack of fandom imagination for the ship, that it doesn't really strike me as anything other than replicating straight dynamics with a gay twist sometimes.

Beyond that, I find that the Stiles stan / Sterek fandom is pretty fucking horrendous when it comes to Scott and Tyler Posey. Borderline - and sometimes running ramshod past the borderline into full on - racist. Stories where Scott is barely competent and can't dress himself. Stories where he's just a selfish piece of shit because he doesn't want to murder everyone in sight. Shit like that, the ways in which racism subtly bleed into fandom, that shit can take the wind right out of the sales on a ship someone likes. So yeah, but I hate the fandom racism directed at Scott and Tyler Posey. I was reading one story where all the non-white characters are either idiots, corrupt and needing to be kicked out of town, or dead. Good job, fandom, for having unexamined biases

Of course that's not all Sterek people, but it's enough of them that I can't get into their ship.

My final reason for disliking Sterek is one half of the ship has such a rabidly angry, bizarre fandom, one that's so focused on Stiles being the best character of Teen Wolf. I hate the attitude towards Stiles. I like the character, but I hate the tone, the approach, that's taken towards what's essentially a smart character with flaws. Instead of accepting that charaters have flaws - Derek, Scott, Liam have flaws - Stiles stans magnify his virtues and ignore every single time he's too quick to judge, mean, anything in favor of all his perfect virtues.

It reeks of self-insert when they write him. Gary Stu bullshit.

Anyway, long and short of it is that they're turned me off Stiles as a character altogether - heck, I wrote three fics about Stiles sleeping with different men to try and get over that thing, but I couldn't bring myself to go further because I hate Stiles. Love Derek, though.

#ask game

[teaveetamer]

Regarding the last rb: I think most of us can recognize how patently ridiculous it is to just blanket accuse someone of misogyny or queerphobia for, idk, thinking that starting a war is bad. It's an annoying and unfounded accusation, but it's ultimately something most of us can shrug off.

But like... I really don't think the people making these accusations are aware of how badly that plays when the criticism you're trying to defend against is calling out bigotry.

Now, let me elaborate.

A few days ago I was on Twitter and happened to see that Edelgard was trending. So I figured I'd go see what that's about because it was probably a shitshow (since there hasn't really been anything official lately that would explain it, e.g. a FEH alt or a figma or something. So, obviously, drama was afoot).

Color me surprised to see there was a lot of criticism about Edelgard's treatment of Petra in canon (primarily, how she keeps Brigid a vassal state and holds that over Petra's head the entire war, instead of immediately granting Brigid independence when she obtained the power to do so). In sum, just discussing the racism inherent to the writing (for tiptoeing around that and definitely not condemning it like it should have) and often inherent to the fanbase (for justifying everything Edelgard does, including this)

And I was seeing two main "rebuttals" to this point.

It's not her fault because she was just a poor wittle girly who is just soooo powerless (nevermind the fact that she spends five years in a position of absolute power over the nation that is currently holding Brigid hostage. And, also, she's a grown ass woman for the entire time skip and events of the war phase), and even if she did it it's not her fault because society just raised her like that (nevermind the fact that people can grow and learn and you aren't stuck with the values your society forced on you when you were a child).

Accusing the people raising these points of misogyny and queerphobia

We could debate exactly how to approach this criticism (a mark against the character? The writers? Both? Was it intentionally written to be racist? Is it a product of social conditioning and unexamined biases on the part of the writers? Some combination?).

But you know what you probably should NOT do in, like, any circumstance? Deflect responsibility for the actions because "she was just a poor little girl who doesn't know better" and accuse the people raising these concerns of misogyny and queerphobia.

This is the kind of shit people are talking about when they say the FE fandom has a lot of unexamined racism. Your first response to someone bringing up racism is to basically say "Okay, but the reputation of the White Girl PNG I Like is more important than your feelings about racist writing/handling of PoC characters. So it's not her fault, and even if it was, you're just a bigot so you're wrong"

And just, like, there's this implicit elevation of the struggles of (white) women and (white) queer folk as more important, valid, or worthy of being defended than the struggles of people marginalized on the basis of race. Let's not even get into the fact that many of the people raising these criticisms were queer women themselves, and it's entirely possible to be a queer woman and also be prejudiced (it happens ALL THE TIME. The queer community and the feminist movements have a LONG history of explicitly excluding people who are not white. E.g. the whitewashing of Stonewall and white feminists excising black feminists from the movement to try and make feminism "more palatable" to racist white men).

Not to mention the double standard here. They'll be so quick to call out racism if it's a character they don't like, but the second it's their fave? Crickets.

Hate to break it to you, but if you only care about pointing out potential racism when it involves a character you don't like, then you're not an ally. You're an opportunist leech co-opting the struggles of real people to win petty internet arguments.

Inb4 someone accuses me of having a double standard for the Dimitri/Dedue relationship, as if Dedue following Dimitri completely of his own free will because he cares about him and believes he can help rebuild Duscur is in any way comparable to Petra being a literal hostage who risks the annihilation of her entire country if she steps out of line (and she knows it). There's definitely racist elements to Dedue's writing (I've even talked about some of them) but specifically his relationship with Dimitri/Faerghus is NOTHING like Petra's with Edelgard/Adrestia.

[gotinterest]

You're not being an ally right now with this kayvan thing. you're talking over bipoc and trying to control what should happen

“Talking over bipoc” you say, as if bipoc (well let’s just say black people, because that’s who’s relevant in this situation) are a monolith who all have the same opinions. So let me ask, which black people am I talking over? I’m sure there are black people who disagree with the statements I’ve made about the situation. You may even be one of them. However, I’ve also seen many black people who believe that actors who do black face- in general- shouldn’t have careers in entertainment. I’ve seen black people who state that Kayvan, specifically, shouldn’t have a career. So which black people should I listen to?

I know blackface is racist. I know the particular blackface Kayvan did was extremely racist. I know he did it multiple times. I know he defended it. I know he never apologized for it. The fact Kayvan was willing to not only perform vile stereotypes of black people but also DEFEND doing so and not apologize, is indicative of deeply rooted antiblackness. How do you think that antiblackness might affect the way he treats black people he ends up working with? How do you think that antiblackness might bleed into future projects that he works on? All these things have led me to agree with the black people who have called for him to be shunned from the industry.

If I- as a trans person- feel as though anti-trans jokes are worth someone like Dave Chapelle getting deplatformed, than it is only ethically consistent for me to also believe that a comedian who made repeated wildly racist jokes at a time when people DEFINITELY knew better (to the point that “this character is so racist that they put on blackface” was it’s own genre of joke at the time) should also get deplatformed. Especially since said actor has never apologized nor faced any real consequences at all for doing so.

I made my post because I’ve seen Nandor (and Kayvan by extension) only get more and more popular with much of the (growing) fandom being completely unaware of what he did. People need to keep bringing this up so that he can face at least some consequences. Because it’s very clear that the internal biases he has against black people which poured out into his comedy have gone completely unexamined by him. The more people bring this up and talk about it the more likely something will actually be done about it.

[moistvonlipwig]

Do you think there are some Amphibia fandom hcs and interpretations that reveal some unexamined biases of the fandom?

I generally think everyone has unexamined biases and fandom tends to be a space where those biases come out, sometimes in obvious ways and sometimes not.

As for how this manifests in Amphibia fandom in particular...well, to be honest, I'm not sure I have enough experience with the fandom to give you a good answer. I binged the show last fall and I've browsed the tags enough to get a general sense of common fandom opinions but my main go-to places for other people's Amphibia opinions are a.) the incomparable frogscholar @grendelsmilf and b.) reaction videos on YouTube which tend to be less influenced by popular fanon. So I don't necessarily have a good sense of what kinds of headcanons and interpretations are out there, although if there are any specific ones you had in mind then you can definitely send them over.

One thing that does come to mind is that I have seen a general attempt in parts of the fandom to flatten or soften Anne and essentially sand away her flaws in a way that I think undermines her complexity as one of the few Southeast Asian protagonists on American television and especially in children's animation. Part of this is ironically possibly an attempt to avoid being seen as racist, a sort of over-correction for how fandoms often demonize and exaggerate the negative traits of female characters of color. But the flip side of that is that it reduces her character and I do wonder if that isn't part of the point, that some people (however unconsciously) do not see Anne or girls like her as capable of possessing complexity at all and are not interested in digging deeper into their characters to find out.

#thankfully however i am able to enjoy the full glorious complexity of anne's character flaws and all because i have a brain #frogblogging

[limerental]

anyway, now that I am more awake, I will say this:

the reason I talk openly about racism and misogyny and other -isms and -phobias in fandom is because no one is above holding unintended, unrecognized, unexamined biases. we live in a racist and misogynistic society and internalize many things, and yes, that extends into fan spaces and yes, it informs our preferences in terms of characters, ships, tropes, etc and yes, it's important to talk about in a non-accusatory way even though it can be uncomfortable.

[unpopularfanopinion]

Hello, fellow anti-anti. I was reading your posts and thinking, because I am against fandom censorship but I'm also a Black girl who has been really upset to run across a story based on unexamined racist assumptions. But that's the key, isn't it? *unexamined*. I've also written and read stories tackling racism as a subject, examining it, discussing how we deal. It can be so hard, even with skillful tagging and summarizing, to tell which a story will be until one opens it. (to be continued)

<i>The only real paths I can see are 1) to let people block certain authors, and there are ways to do so on AO3 and better ways being developed and 2) for people to learn to examine those racist ideas and tropes, to recognize them, which will take people being willing to learn in good faith. The way antis tangle the discussion of dealing with fandom racism together with their censoriousness towards sexual subjects really truly does not help, it seems to me. What do you think? (If you have time.)</i>

Fandom Racism is a tricky subject for me(and full disclosure I am a white woman,) because yes everyone should be able to escape into fandom, but because racism is so prevalent in our society it is inevitably going to leak through and show up in fandom in nasty ways (both unintentionally via ignorance and unexamined bias, and deliberately via racist assholes)

I do agree that censorship isn't a viable solution. A quick look at 2020's most challenged books (http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/top10 ) shows a trend of people challenging books that may help or force people to examine their racist biases, to get them taken out of schools or not taught to students. So even if AO3 decided they would violate their entire mission statement of being a safe place for all fanworks and set up some sort of racism review to either label, hide, or delete fics reported as being racist it would very quickly be turned into a tool to harrass and silence POC fans who are using fics as their escape, or to work through their own feelings and issues about racism. And anyone who thinks it wouldn't be is either lying to themselves or doesn't actually care. They just want to try and report fics they don't like and get them deleted.

POC fans do need to be given betters tools to protect themselves with, so better blocking tools, which i understand A03 is working, with the intending goal to reduce the ability of people to harass authors and site users.

As far as people examining racist ideas and biases, that does need to happen, but I also think people need to learn it's not something you can really force people to do. No amount of yelling or harassment will get someone to change if they are sadly firm in their racist beliefs. And harassing someone who may have leaned into a racist trope in ignorance(I don't know how old I was when I learned that there were negative racist stereotypes about Black people, fried chicken and watermelon. I thought everyone loved those and kinda put them in the same category as pizza, hot dogs and apple pie) isn't really helpful either. Pointing out a stereotype, racist-leaning trope is helpful and good, turning it into an harassment campaign isn't.

One thing I do think everyone needs to learn is that their individual preferences don't say anything about their moral character or fiber. Preferring one sports team over another doesn't make you a better person. Preferring one fictional ship over another doesn't make you a better person. Preferring fluff fic over dark fic doesn't make you a better person. And a person's fic preferences is not an actual indication of racism, homophobia, or any other bigotry.

#rubynye #fandom racism #Ao3

[owlynonaledge]

Response to a Reply on DA Fandom Critical

@jstin8:

But I mean the problem is, who is the judge? You have things we can clearly agree on being wrong, like that horrid Vivienne fanfic that came out a while ago, but then there are those who think Dorians character is homophobic and people who are pro-Templar to be racist

My general rule of thumb is to listen to the meta and criticism of the communities that relate to or are impacted by how a character or group is portrayed or framed in a narrative. So in that sense, the people who get to decide are the POC fans, the LBGTQ+ fans, and the other traditionally disenfranchised fans. The only skin I have in any of these communities is in how mental health issues are framed or coded within characters, and even then I have to be aware of how that issue intersects with other marginalized groups.

Are there going to be different opinions within these groups? Of course. 

African American opinions on black and black coded characters within Dragon Age are going to differ. While one person or community of fans might appreciate the representation Vivienne brings to the game, another group or person might be critical of how she is framed in the narrative. Both arguments are valid. As someone who is not African American, I feel it is my duty within the fandom to be aware of both arguments.

Does this create more work for me as a white fan? Yes, but it is work worth doing.

Can there be, as you mention, opposing arguments for and against Dorian as a representation of the LBGTQ+ community? I am sure there are and I would argue that both arguments are valid.

My point is that you should be aware of the flaws in the characterization of each character you love and how those flaws are framed within the narrative.

My point is that you should be aware of the flaws in the writing of each piece of media you consume, whether it be Harry Potter or Dragon Age.

My point is that most POC fans, LBGTQ+ fans, and other traditionally disenfranchised fans are not at liberty to ignore all the isms evident within a work or character. These are issues that they have been dealing with for years.

White fans shouldn't ignore these issues either and there is a glaring amount of white privilege in posts that suggest that you shouldn't let "other" part of the Fandom ruin your love of a character.

Am I perfect?

Hardly. I don’t follow as many creators/fans of color as I should. I am not a perfect ally. I have a tendency not to comment as much as I should because I let the emotional abuse I suffered as a child get the better of me when it comes to involving myself in conflicts. I also like to think about things before forming opinion or argument of my own to the point where often someone else has already said what I would have said which leaves me feeling like I have nothing more to add. I should probably add to the conversation, even if it is only to reblog and agree with the op.

Can I still love the games despite all the flaws?

Absolutely and  @dalish-ious has an awesome post on this topic. It’s a good read if you haven’t seen it and they are in general an awesome person who I admire for their meta and criticism of both Dragon Age and it’s fandom. 

What I am ultimately trying to say it that I feel I am obligated as a white fan to be aware of the arguments that illuminate the homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, racist, ableist or other isms within a work of fiction and it's fandom. I need to be open to having my opinions of a character or game crushed. I need to be open to the idea that the media I love is not as great I once thought it was. I need to listen to POC fans, LBGTQ+ fans, and other marginalized groups and not immediately shut them down. I need to be okay with the fact that I might get things wrong and avoid doubling on what could be a racist or ableist or homophobic, etc view of which I was previously unaware. I need to admit and accept when I have been wrong without giving a non-apology for my actions. 

Is it going to be easy all the time? Hell no, but this is the work I need to do so I can use my privilege for good, not just for myself, but so my kids have a blueprint for what being a good ally means. 

I realized later in the day that I had not addressed the Templar question directly. And well the short answer is yes, people who love Templars can be racists.

Long answer:

If the people who love Templars love them to the exclusion of their flaws then yes those fans are racist and ableist( 'cause people those to issues intersect). Bioware loves its “Grey Morality” but they don’t write it very well. There are huge and glaring power dynamic issues within the Mage/Templar conflict that put the Templars in a position of power over the Mages. 

Can you like the Templars for the visibility they bring to addiction issues? Sure can.

Can you like them for the ideals they represent underneath all the crap they've done? Yep.

What you cannot do is ignore the meta and criticism from minority fans who find the Templars appalling. What you cannot do is stick your fingers in your ears when a POC fan or a neurodivergent fan calls you out your single-minded love of Templars to the exclusion of their flaws. What you cannot do is double down on your unexamined biases, prejudices, and internalized racism and go on to offer the fans who called you out a non-apology for your actions or flame them with a rant of how right you think you are.

#dragon age #dragon age origins #dragon age 2 #dragon age inqustion #fandom critical #long post #I think I got in all my points #things I need to say #that I should be saying more often #and thats on me #and I do expect to fuck up now and again #and now I've made this post even longer #is my english major showing? #I think it is