#trying to argue that jon is not a good person because he *checks notes* slept with ygritte and broke his nw vows

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

I really don’t think we should be treating morality as a linear thing in ASOIAF because what often happens is that we start to stray from the actual conversations that we need to be having regarding the depths of making a moral choice and even the circumstances involved. To try and blankly paint any one character as the “most morally good” isn’t really taking us anywhere. And it certainly isn’t helpful when people in this fandom want to try and prove that characters are “grey” but not moral (what does that even mean??) because they did one “bad” thing. If ASOIAF stans were to have their way, then:

Jon is not a morally good person because he threatened Gilly

Dany cannot be considered to be compassionate because she sanctioned torture against the wine seller’s daughters

Arya cant be good because she has killed people

and so on, and so on….

But this is such a draining, and oft times frustrating, conversation to have because you see just how shallow the above listed examples are? Readers are listing only singular instances across a narrative that spans thousand and thousands of pages, and there’s absolutely no context involved. Why did Jon threaten Gilly? Why did Dany resort to torture and at one point did she do it? Who did Arya kill and why? And why do those singular instances negate everything else in their arcs?

What usually happens when we have the 12847647282th unnecessary conversation about who is the “most good” character in ASOIAF is that we start getting blanket statements with no elaboration. And the only people ever considered are Ned, Brienne, and Davos, and sometimes the children like Shireen or Tommen. Mind you, Ned and Davos are not perfect or without their own faults either; much has been said about Ned’s abilities as a father and it’s implied that Davos was not entirely faithful to his wife. And based on her current arc, Brienne will surely have to make morally tough choices regarding oaths and knightly honor. Plus theres the irony of including literal children when they have not been put in situations where they actually have to make morally difficult choices and live with the consequences.

ASOIAF shows us that people who are capable of incredible kindness and compassion are also capable of doing unpleasant things.

Jon threatened Gilly….because he was trying to save another child whom he believed to be at risk of human sacrifice(!!) and was stuck between a rock and a hard place. But why does that singular instance negate the fact that his arc has been about him standing up for the “lesser than”? Why does that negate the fact that he stood up for Sam against a superior when there was nothing to gain for him? Why does it negate the fact that he went out of his way to equip Arya in a way that society would have deemed inappropriate? Why does it negate the fact that he dedicated the entirety of his time as Lord Commander to fight an institution that had upheld racism/xenophobia for millennia? Why should we filter out all those moments of kindness, compassion, and deep empathy that Jon has even without him thinking?

Dany sanctioned torture….but she was trying to solve the murder of an innocent victim AND this brought her no joy. But why does that negate the fact that when she gained unimaginable power, she could’ve high tailed to Westeros to use it to her benefit and become queen, but instead chose to stay in Essos where she has no personal responsibility just so she could fight the institutional evil that is slavery? Why does it negate Dany who went to personally treat plague victims at great risk to herself?

Arya has killed some….but it’s in self defense or in defense of others who are disenfranchised. But why does this negate that she is one of the few people in the series how goes out of her way to show kindness and friendship to those who are not as economically or politically advantaged as she is (e.g., Mycah)? Why does it negate that she took fellow slaves under her protection when she herself had little power to fight for her own survival at Harrenhall? Why does it negate that when she saw those caged soldiers whom she was angry with for their actions, instead of leaving them to die instead offered them the only kindness she could at the moment: a drink of water?

Trying to have arguments about morality but stripping everything down to ‘x character did y bad thing (regardless of context) and that’s why they can’t be good’ is, to be blunt, ridiculous. And it isn’t a particularly interesting way to engage with the text. Character journeys, especially well written ones, are rarely ever in a straight line. There’s amazing highs and terrible lows. GRRM gives us so many characters like Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Ned, etc. who even in their lows, have gleams of compassion and exceptional kindness. It doesn’t do anyone any good to filter those moments out to make the books more digestible; and I’m being a little generous here, because so many readers have a very shallow level of engagement with the series and it shows in conversation. And we also shouldn’t pit these characters unfairly against those who have never been in similarly difficult situations that required them to make hard choices. Because when we do, we start to completely miss the point all together.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #yeah this came out of a particular thread on Reddit and I was just like….🫠 those people can’t be serious fjsnsnssjsb #trying to argue that jon is not a good person because he *checks notes* slept with ygritte and broke his nw vows #yeah let’s crucify a FIFTEEN YEAR OLD for not conforming to absolutely ridiculous norms that have absolutely no bearing to his true purpose #asoiaf stans when a literal child isn’t happy about dumb rules set by a penal colony that’s akin to indentured servitude: #surprised pikachu face #and the audacity to say garlan Tyrell is a better person that Jon or Dany or arya #what books are yall reading???? #what has he ever done that’s remotely comparable to these people that proves he is the height of honor or selflessness?? #nothing #we know literally nothing about this guy I’m- #tagging #jon snow #daenerys targaryen #arya stark #because it’s relevant in context

[dancinginthecenteroftheworld]

Nov 23: Thankful (Stark Family)

There’s nothing quiet about a Stark family Thanksgiving. 

Sansa has been working since Tuesday, helping get everything ready. Between extended family, significant others, and friends (or strays) they’re over twenty this year. 

Which is fine, it just means Sansa has been spending the better part of the past week at her parent’s house working on prep. At least Robb and Bran are helping, and Jon if he’s not working. 

If Sansa never sees another cranberry again in her life, it will be too soon.

(She says this every year.)

Still, Sansa feels a swell of warmth when she looks around the dining room. Her dad has put several of the leaves in the table, and it fits all of them comfortably, even if the chairs don’t all match. (Aunt Lysa definitely has something to say about that, but thankfully Uncle Jon is good at re-directing her. Usually.)

The table is decorated with leaves and gourds, and it actually looks nice this year, now that the duty has passed from Rickon to Robin, as the youngest child. Rickon’s tables tended to look like a disaster hit, but nobody was going to let him get out of it. 

Robin has issues, but Sansa’s cousin at least has some degree of thoughtfulness. Even if it had taken him two hours to get the job done, because he’d had to count every leaf and evenly distribute them. 

Sansa’s honestly surprised that the table doesn’t sag under the weight of all the food. Two golden brown turkeys, giant pans of stuffing, huge bowls of cranberry sauce and gravy, an actual vat of mashed potatoes, two varieties of sweet potatoes (thank god they’re no longer having the annual marshmallow vs. pecan crust debate) are just a start. 

Maybe it’s silly, but there’s something so special about only getting the dishes once a year. Sansa knows she could make green bean casserole or creamed onions any time, but there’s something better about them for only being once a year.

She’s also looking forward to trying the savory mashed squash Mr. Reed brought this year (Sansa still can’t call him Howland, even though he’s asked her too, it feels too weird) and the Moroccan carrot dish her mom has added. Sansa thinks the regular carrots are great, but her mom says she’ll go insane if she keeps making the same exact thing for another 40-some years, so whatever makes her happy.

Sansa can’t imagine having Thanksgiving in a smaller crowd, not having to elbow Robb and Arya to get to the last bit of corn pudding or almost shouting to be heard. Or waiting impatiently for everyone to go around saying what they’re thankful for, which takes forever, or watching Rickon and Arya make faces at each other with food in their mouths. Which, honestly, Rickon is 22, they should have grown out of that. 

Sansa wishes her new boss at the animal shelter had agreed to come. Brienne is so nice and so smart and so strong, Sansa looks up to her. And Brienne said it’s just her and her father! How do you even cook a turkey for two people? It makes Sansa want to cry.

It’s not like there aren’t other people here. Arya always brings her boss, because his family is all back in Braavos and they don’t do Thanksgiving there anyway. And Bran’s boss is here this year too, since Alys’ father died last year. 

Alys looks a little shell-shocked, actually. Sansa should probably check on her before dessert. The Starks, en masse, can be a bit overwhelming if you’re not used to it. And Bran is too busy making eyes at Meera to notice anything else. 

What’s most interesting this year is saying thanks. Rickon says thanks for teaching people new things, which is the most un-Rickon like thing Sansa has ever heard, so something is up there. Robb mumbled something about kindness and forgiveness, which makes Sansa think he’s got someone he’s trying to date and failing (as usual). Then Jon says coffee and Jon barely even drinks coffee, what is going on?

Then again, Sansa says yarn and tea, which has a few of her siblings raising their eyebrows. So she’s not entirely blameless. 

Luckily, she’s seated between Alys – whose baked mushrooms with parmesan are amazing, they are definitely inviting her back next year with a request for them – and Grandfather Tully, who is talking about his interesting cases so far this year. Sansa hums politely and pretends to care about the town’s new loitering laws and how it’s clogging up the court and taking up all Grandfather’s time, while trying desperately to turn the conversation back to Alys and new ideas for ice cream flavors at the shop.

Sansa is practically bursting by the time the guests leave (but not before she gets Syrio’s pumpkin gnocchi recipe) and the Uncles go to clean up and they all head to the den for the traditional sibling time.

Or, interrogate and beat each other until everyone spills their secrets time. 

“Coffee?” Sansa demands, looking at Jon. Then turns to Rickon. “And teaching people?”

“What the fuck,” Bran agrees. He’s still got a plate of pie, and that’s where the last slice of apple cider cream pie went, the little jerk. Sansa wanted that piece. 

Jon breaks first, of course, and has an epic crush on the coffee girl at Wildlings. Sansa has met her a few times – Jon is going to get eaten alive. Probably before he even gets laid. 

Robb turns about seven shades of red talking about Talisa at the pharmacy, and Sansa makes a note to go pick up some vitamins and do recon. 

Sansa obligingly spills about Margaery, because she’s totally been waiting for this chance, until Arya starts fake gagging. It’s not Sansa’s fault Margaery is so wonderful and easy to talk about, honestly.

Rickon is the last to cave. It takes Arya jumping on his neck like a monkey and holding him still while Sansa and Robb tickle him until he caves. It’s worked like a charm since he was four, although he’s become significantly more difficult to hold down, hence Arya. 

Sansa politely refrains from asking where her sister learned the spots to use to effectively immobilize someone much bigger than herself. 

“I just filled in for Uncle Brynden with some stuff,” Rickon says. 

Arya twists his ear. 

“There was a girl who’s kinda cool,” Rickon allows. He looks over. “She reminds me of you, kinda.”

Sansa stops tickling him in shock. 

Look, she loves all her brothers (and Arya) but Sansa and Rickon are about as polar opposite as it’s possible to be.  

“Me?” Sansa repeats, in case he’s actually talking to Arya. 

“Yeah, she’s like some kind of a Disney princess or something,” Rickon goes on. His cheeks are actually turning pink. “She’s really sweet, it’s like you expect birds to fly out and sing songs while flying around her or something.”

Arya falls off Rickon’s back in shock. 

Sansa didn’t realize Rickon had paid such close attention to the Disney movies she’d make him watch when they were kid, but clearly Cinderella sunk in at least a little. 

Robb waves his hand in front of Rickon’s face. “Are you drunk?”

“What?” 

It’s a hilariously defensive yelp coming from someone who’s six foot tall, with full sleeve tattoos and what is probably a very handsome beard. Or something. He’s very proud of it, Sansa doesn’t pretend to know or care about the attractiveness of facial hair. 

“Opposites can attract,” Jon offers, but he’s smirking. 

“It’s not a big deal,” Rickon argues. 

It’s more words than Sansa has heard her youngest brother say about anyone ever, let alone a girl. Woman, she supposes, now they’re all adults. As weird as that is. 

“Have you slept with her?” Bran is always the bluntest one. 

“It’s not a thing,” Rickon says again. “I’ve just seen her around a couple of times.”

A woman Rickon has seen around and wants to talk to and hasn’t slept with already? This just gets more interesting by the minute. 

It takes a while but they eventually weasel a name out of him, Shireen Baratheon, although he refuses to say what she does. Which means it’s embarrassing. Considering Rickon’s last hookups have included a stripper, a drummer in a failed rock band, a woman with facial tattoos, and a woman Sansa is pretty sure was a drug dealer, she’s not sure what qualifies as embarrassing for him.

It’s so nice to hear though. Maybe he’ll find someone that cares about him. Sansa thinks her brother wants that a lot more than he’ll admit. It’s fills her with joy to see most of her siblings closer to finding their person, and hopefully Sansa is too.

Now she just has to figure someone out for Arya, and it will be just perfect. 

Thanksgiving next year might be even bigger.

#november prompts #ficlet #small town au #stark family feels #fluff

[tigereye771]

New Year, New Beginnings (Part 7/?)

Title: New Year, New Beginnings

Part: 7/?

Pairing: Jon/Sansa (Modern AU)

Notes: I admit, I struggled with this part and I’m not sure it’s completely successful but I’ve worried at it and let it sit and then worried at it again over and over, so it might just be time to just let it go.  Hope you enjoy.

[Part 1] [Part 2] [Part 3] [Part 4] [Part 5] [Part 6]

Sansa eyed Jon in amusement as he finished off his second personal quiche, a vegetarian version this time.  He swallowed the last morsel and sighed in satisfaction, gently patting his flat, but full stomach.  “I’m going to have to start working out more if I keep eating your cooking.  Between the lunch yesterday, the dinner last night and now, I must have gained five pounds.”

“Yes, I noticed this morning the lack of leftovers in the refrigerator,” Sansa noted wryly.

Jon blushed, realizing that he may have eaten Sansa’s share of the mac and cheese with his unexpected appearance at dinner last night.  He started to apologize, but Sansa merely laughed and waved off this apologies.  

“I always have my dinner during my break at Taylor’s.  If anything, you prevented Arya and Bran from over-stuffing themselves. I swear, they’re both bottomless pits.”

Her mention of her seasonal job sobered Jon instantly.  He still had a lot of questions regarding what had happened to the Starks over the last few years.  He didn’t believe for a moment that Bran and Arya had told him everything last night. Sansa was an almost unknown entity to him and given the fact that she hadn’t even bothered to give him her cell phone number when she had so willingly provided her siblings’, he knew it would be harder to convince her to open up to him.

Jon would have to earn her trust, and given what he had heard last night, he didn’t blame her for her wariness.  They were silent for a few minutes as Sansa cut out cookies in assorted holiday shapes and placed them on a baking sheet.

“You were always a good baker, but I never imagined you working in a café,” Jon suddenly blurted out. He flushed red as he saw Sansa hesitate a moment.  He could feel wariness creep over her entire body as she resumed her work.

“Oh?  I thought Arya and Bran explained all of that,” Sansa replied easily and in measured tones, but Jon could sense she didn’t really want to talk about what happened.  “There wasn’t much money left except in trusts we couldn’t access. I was only eighteen and not a lot of work experience. Margery was starting the café and it seemed like solution to our problem.”

Yes, that was the story that Arya and Bran told him last night, but Jon knew it wasn’t the entire story. Granted, he didn’t want to upset or fight with Sansa, but Jon needed to know about everything and every detail.  Maybe it was the military training in him that made him want to know every scrap of information before going into a dangerous territory.

And he was wading into dangerous waters here.

“They did,” Jon began gently. He paused.  “They also told me what Peter Baelish tried to do to you. Why didn’t you press charges against him, Sansa?”

“Arya explained that to you too,” Sansa replied calmly with just the slightest hard edge to her voice. Sansa knew her sister had given Jon the explanation they all agreed upon when asked about that incident.  Sansa had double checked with Arya last night when she was sleeping in her sister room and Jon slept in her own.  Arya swore she didn’t tell Jon about everything else.

“I think we can trust, Jon,” Arya argued. “And I’m over eighteen now. What can they do to us?”

“Bran is still underage and they’re still very powerful,” Sansa replied.

“But they’ve kept their distance like he promised.”

“Only because we’ve kept our end of the deal and kept quiet. Did it occur to you that if we say anything to Jon we could put him in a bad position? Do you think after Jon hears what happened he’ll just let it go because we tell him to?”

“No,” Arya grumbled.  “But do you really think they could be more powerful than the Targaryens?”

“This isn’t his problem, Arya.  Let’s just leave Jon out of it.”

“I didn’t want to go through a trial.”

Jon watched silently as Sansa began to use a little more force in pressing the cutter down to pop out shapes of bells and candy canes.  She was becoming more agitated and he wondered how far he could push her.

“So you let him get away with almost raping you?” Jon pressed.  “What if he tried again? Or if he attacked someone else?”

Sansa paused in her work and glared at Jon.  “Don’t you dare try to guilt me into anything, Jon Snow!  I held this family together with no help from anyone, least of all you or any other man.  I did what I had to make sure my family survived.  If it doesn’t meet your high moral standards, then you can just walk right back out of our lives now!”

“I’m not judging you!” Jon exclaimed.  Sansa took a tray of unbaked cookies to the oven and shoved them in, sharply pressing the timer next to the oven.  As she started to walk by, Jon reached out to stop her.  He gently grasped Sansa by the shoulders and turned her towards him. “I’m trying to understand why you didn’t press charges and get Baelish out of your lives forever.”

“Jon, I was twenty, accusing a powerful and respected attorney of attempted rape.  Do you know what they do to rape victims in court?  They try to dig up every disgusting and embarrassing detail of your life so it can be said out loud and for the record. They’ll protect the criminal’s information, but not the victim’s.  I had just barely won custody of Bran and Arya.  Now I was going to have to go to court and have my reputation dragged through the mud? I couldn’t guarantee the court wouldn’t change their mind and take them away from me. Arya hadn’t turned eighteen yet!  Bran was just recovering! That’s how Baelish got away with it.” She shrugged off Jon’s hands and grabbed something from the refrigerator.  She put it onto her work counter between two pieces of parchment paper. Jon realized it was a lump of butter. Sansa began pounding it into a flat disc with a wooden rolling pin.  “We’d lost so much of our family already, I wasn’t going to risk losing the rest.”

“But now he’s still in your lives,” Jon replied, raising his voice over the whacks she made with her rolling pin.

Sansa stopped her movements and took a deep breath.  “We try to limit contact as much as possible and have done a good job of it so far.” She sent him a tired, wry smile. “I know you’re just worried about us, Jon, but trust me, we’ve gotten quite good at handling Petyr Baelish.”

“It’s not fair.  It’s not right,” Jon grumbled.

“No,” Sansa replied quietly as she folded some pastry around the flattened butter.  She put the entire thing back into the refrigerator and began to wipe down her work space.  “But then again, so little in life truly is.”

The warm kitchen became quiet and chillier after that.  Jon wasn’t certain how he could get them back to that friendly footing from before. Several times he opened and closed his mouth to try to say something, but he couldn’t seem to find the right words. He lost his opportunity when the back door open and one of the young women he saw yesterday came bustled into the kitchen.  She stopped in surprise when she saw Jon.

“Jon, Mya Stone.  Mya, Jon Snow.  Mya is the assistant baker here and Jon is an old family friend,” Sansa said by way of introductions.  “My car died last night.  Jon gave me a lift this morning.”

“That early?” Mya squeaked in surprise.  “Heck of a friend!  It’s nice to meet you Captain Snow.”

“Jon,” he told her as he shook her hand.  Mya’s presence ended any opportunity to speak more to Sansa, but he knew how to make his next opportunity happen.  “So, I better get going.  I’d like to get a bit more sleep and do some errands.”

“Yes, thank you again, Jon,” Sansa said she wiped her hands on a towel and started to escort him to the back door.

“So I’ll pick you up about 2:30?” Jon asked her as he paused at the door.

Sansa stopped and stared at him.  “What?”

“That’s the time you leave here for the mall, right?  For your job at Taylors?”

Sansa frowned.  “Yeah, so?”

“So I’m giving you a ride.”

“Oh, no, Jon, I’m sure Arya-,”

“You can’t be certain she’ll have your car fixed or be able to give you a ride herself.  Besides I need to go to the mall anyway.”

Sansa looked at him suspiciously.  “What for?”

Jon looked her right in the eye and said, “I do have my own Christmas shopping to do, Sansa.”

“Oh,” Sansa blinked, not having a good response to that other than, “Uh, well, yeah, thank you, Jon. That’s very nice of you to drive me again.”

“Not a problem,” Jon replied cheerily.  “Like I said, I have to go to the mall and do some shopping any way.  I’ll see you later.”  He smiled at her and left.

Mya came up to Sansa’s shoulder as they watched Jon get into this car and pull out of the parking lot.

“Would you look at that,” Mya breathed.  “You’ve got Jon Fricking Snow acting as your chauffer!”

“Zip it, Mya,” Sansa said in an annoyed voice as she shut the back door.  “He’s just a nice guy.  He always has been.”

TBC

#jonsa fic jon x sansa fanfic jonsa fanfic jon snow x sansa stark jon snow x sansa stark fan fiction jon snow x sansa stark fanfic