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#whether it’s percy not being aware enough to realize he already is abusive to his mom
un-pearable · 4 months
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already seen plenty of stuff re: tolerable-ization of gabe and sincerely i think it’s good. this version of gabe undeniably sucks but in a realistic, i-can-see-why-these-two-would-get-together way. kid’s media has a tendency to create abusive characters who are exaggerated to make it obvious to kids, but the show is targeted at both kids and the original readers who grew up, so it can afford to have a little more nuance and make sally and gabe behave like people who DID have a real reason to get together (once)
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the-ghost-king · 3 years
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love seeing ur tags on my posts it means i get to think 🥰🥰 anyway mostly agree but at least to me nico’s constant need to prove himself is a sign of feeling like he’s not worth other people’s time and effort and he has to MAKE himself worth it. he does all he can in the hopes that people will notice him and tell him that he’s good enough because he relies on the approval of people he loves. he thinks love is something conditional for him and that he always has to be earning it because he doesn’t have enough worth to have it just granted to him. again this is more my own interpretation of his character and possibly a bit of projection
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I will not fail to acknowledge that I might also be projecting somewhat onto Nico, what is media but self reflection? I think there's a couple ways you can see Nico that are canonically "correct"
What I personally think happened with Nico is that he was aware he was worth more than the treatment he was receiving, but because so much rejection occurred he eventually just assumed he was the problem. There's things on this I would rewrite now but it holds up okay in what I'm about to try and explain.
The thing about being rejected is that the first time you argue it's the other person. And the second time you'll argue it's still them. If you're still arguing it's other people the third time, maybe but it's thin ice... But eventually you just have to accept that you're at fault.
I think this is something that really describes Nico. He is never able to nestle himself in the comfort of sameness after a certain point. He is not given authority in his own story in the beginning, he is thrust into solitude, he is told he is a monster already and if not then he has no choice but to become one.
And he takes this blame upon himself, believing that it's him who has to prove himself. He doesn't acknowledge that maybe other people have their own biases against him, he says "I have to prove them wrong," and then does his best.
It's important to note that Nico is definitely grappling with Childhood Emotional Neglect, he's in a broken situation- and he recognizes that nobody wants him around, and that he's just more stress for an already stressed group of people, so he just backs down and starts to figure stuff out for himself. We see him accept some help and friendship from The Stolls in TTC but eventually he stops doing this at some point.
His leave from camp and time with Minos is when he is used:
you unknowingly wear your heart on your sleeve and people will see this and take advantage of your trusting nature and unconditional love and they’ll never really love you they’ll just see you as an easy tool to be manipulated and used how they see fit and you won’t recognize that this is a bad thing because you don’t believe you’re worth anything more than this
This is something I would say is very true about this time period of Nico's life. Minos emotionally exploits Nico, emotional neglect and abuse (possibly physical abuse, who knows) are defining characteristics of their interactions. Nico talks about how Minos will just randomly leave him for extremely long periods with no assistance, and about how when he's around he's always telling Nico to try harder, to do better, do more. Note the time he tells Nico "you have no power over me", he's definitely holding things over Nico's head. I don't think it's wrong to assume comfort is a part of that, Nico is alone all the time at this point, and I'm sure he's starved for touch, and support, and connection- and he will take whatever he can get whether or not it is good or right.
At first he doesn't do anything against this, and it might be because he was so starved for attention that he was willing to endure abuse to receive somewhat a consistent form of it. I also think there's some evidence that points to the idea Nico was getting something from Minos, training and similar stuff, it's possible he was willing to form and upkeep a toxic relationship with him in order to gain experience.
However, I do disagree with "and you won’t recognize that this is a bad thing because you don’t believe you’re worth anything more than this" because Nico does realize eventually that his situation isn't sustainable and that he has to do something- so he takes his narrative back into his own hands:
“Minos laughed. "You have no power over me. I am the god of spirits! The ghost king!" "No." Nico drew his sword. "I am.” (X)
So Nico, if he ever thought he was worth the treatment of being used for someone elses personal gain, he definitely overcomes some of it here, if not all of it. Nico is manipulated and used for Minos's personal gain, but he recognizes that it's not sustainable and makes a stand for himself. And this is the first time in the series where Nico truly is able to take control of his own narrative, everything before this moment is Nico being forced, or Nico with something looming over him, Nico crowning himself is him claiming his story.
So let's consider Hades in all of this, I don't think Hades manipulated Nico to the extent Minos did- but nonetheless, he did manipulate and abuse him, and this hurt Nico more than when Minos did it. Again, in the situation with Hades this is also true, "you unknowingly wear your heart on your sleeve and people will see this and take advantage of your trusting nature and unconditional love and they’ll never really love you they’ll just see you as an easy tool to be manipulated and used how they see fit and you won’t recognize that this is a bad thing". By the time Nico and Hades truly start interacting, we see that Nico's heart hasn't been fully removed from his sleeve, but it may have been lightened.
Here's the thing about the way Nico approached Hades, it's not naïve to trust family. The text in multiple places implies that Hades was around for at least a handful of years when Nico was a kid, it's not unlikely that Nico may have taken naps on his shoulder, held his hand to cross the street, maybe called him "Papa", "Dad", or "Tata" (Italian, English, old Greek). It makes sense that Nico goes to him, what doesn't make sense to Nico at first is that Hades would manipulate him. Unlike many of the other demigods, Nico knows he was a choice, and that at some point he was something wanted, so he expects some level of okay treatment from Hades. Hades loved his mother, and Hades if not wanting of Nico would have wanted Maria's wishes fulfilled, and Nico probably remembers Hades treating him warmly- or at least not harshly. The way Nico went to Hades makes sense, he wasn't expecting open arms surely, but he also wasn't expecting abuse.
Hades emotionally exploits Nico by using information about Maria, what would a little boy want more than the safety of his mother? He's so starved for human contact, who ever held him more than his mother? Who ever loved him more than her? Once Nico delivers Percy to Hades, his father crushes him, not only by harming Percy but by exploiting Nico's trust through Nico's mother- one of the things he's most desperate for.
We see Nico's heart come off his sleeve at this point, maybe not fully, but enough to where a stranger couldn't recognize it at first glance, and in a way where he has the means to hide it from most.
Except we don't see much of this, because the series is narrated by Percy- and Nico can't hide his heart from Percy.
Almost everything Nico does, everything he tries to do, is for Percy. Nico is so desperate for contact that he is pliant, but in Percy's hands Nico actually wants that contact, he's not interested in imitations of love or substitutes- he's looking for the real thing.
And Mr. Oblivious does-Annabeth-like-me Jackson isn't in any headspace to realize that a boy might like him, let alone Nico. This concern that Nico will join Luke, isn't entirely because Percy is misreading signals, but it's definitely part of it. Nico likes Percy so much that at one point he is willing to go to Tartarus if not entirely for him, then partially for him.
If Percy had realized, and rejected Nico- maybe he would have joined Luke, or at least he definitely would have been more likely to. The perception of Nico we get in PJO from Percy is unreliable, because Percy looks at Nico through the lenses of a concerned older brother, and Percy feels guilty in some way for the situation Nico is in. This gives not only a skewed, but slightly falsified narrative of who Nico is.
The original post of mine I linked, although yes, I would like to rewrite aspects of it now it holds up in the sense that Nico is always trying to prove himself, and this is a bit different than being a puppet. Nico is so starved that it is present in everything, @/arabnico gets it right:
nico’s longing is just so raw it consumes him whole and he cannot hide it at all because it reflects in absolutely everything he does and is nico’s just the means of the way for them and he settles for being it because he doesn’t think he can be much better or even deserves to it is sometting so twisted because nico has this innate utalitarian desire to be useful and to do something and to do the right thing but in the game of things he’s reduced to that puppet in the hands of fate and deities millennia older than him that see a wounded wandering soul doomed to be forever alone by a destiny so cruel it keeps him on his knees
Nico, in PJO especially, has little control over his own narrative. His mother is killed in punishment for his father's "wrongs", Nico is forced to endure this. Bianca grows tired of caring for Nico and leaves him behind, this is not Nico's fault but Nico is forced to endure the consequences of her actions. Bianca's fate is decided on a quest Nico isn't even able to go on, he is forced to endure the results. Nico then breaks the cycle, declaring himself The Ghost King, and dethroning Minos. Nico is forced to endure Hades's manipulation only because he did not see it coming, this wasn't an aspect in which Nico didn't have his narrative (he had already taken ownership of his narrative) but a blind spot in his rational.
The place where we vary is why Nico behaves this way, we can agree that it's because he's starving for human connection- but you believe it's because he has no confidence he is willing to submit himself, while I see his submission as an act of desperation.
Personally, I think to argue that Nico is like this as a result of lack of confidence does a disservice to his narrative (obviously it's fine to view him however you wish, and I wish you all the fun in doing so!). To boil this down to starvation and lack of confidence removes some level of Nico's autonomy in his own life, but also strips him of one of his strongest characteristics- those qualities of him which are like Orpheus.
Nico willing to go to the ends of the earth for love is not a weakness but a strength, his ability to carry on beyond the point in which he needs a rest is not a weakness but a sign of strength. His ability to go to the ends of the earth to right wrongs, and to show his love:
"... Cupid struck, slapping Nico sideways into a granite pedestal. Love is no game! It is no flowery softness! It is hard work- a quest that never ends. It demands everything from you- especially the truth. Only then does it yield rewards."
Cupid is explaining Nico's idea of love in this scene, we see Jason say he prefers Piper's idea of love- but Nico only knows love in the way cupid describes, working desperately for a few moments with Bianca, working just to hear any scrap of information about his mother, always trying to prove himself to Percy- to overcome the way he feels about Percy (and boys in general).
Nico has only known love as something you walk to the ends of the Earth for, but he never stops fighting to be loved and acknowledged. Lesser men would give up and lay down, accept they are unworthy, but Nico keeps pushing to be acknowledged and accepted- to be recognized and loved without having to walk to the end of the Earth, but Nico knows he has to walk to that edge and face it before unconditional love will come to him.
To imply that Nico seeks love the way he does because he's unconfident in his ability to receive love ignores the idea that he's had his life forced into this position because of the fates. It loses acknowledgment to the strength it takes to pick yourself up and walk to the end of the Earth time and time again, because if he was unconfident then he would eventually lay down and accept he shouldn't be loved ever again.
I don't think confidence doesn't play into this at all though, it definitely has some impact on Nico, he does view himself as inherently less (he is overly self sacrificial- think Tartarus :/), and he does try to remove himself from others:
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You yourself said: you blame yourself for the way people have hurt you, taken advantage of you, and abandoned you. they exploit your love and your naïveté time and time again. you tell yourself, surely, there must be something wrong with you. because—you are convinced—that people are good. “if they hurt me, it is because i am flawed. it is because i am weak. people will always hurt me—even people i love. it’s an inevitable truth for me.” (X)
And this connects to what I said: "The thing about being rejected is that the first time you argue it's the other person. And the second time you'll argue it's still them. If you're still arguing it's other people the third time, maybe but it's thin ice... But eventually you just have to accept that you're at fault."
I do think there's a reason Nico makes himself so "utilitarian", because he hasn't been handed unconditional love since Bianca. But again we disagree on the why, I see Nico's behavior in his utilitarian example of love as caring, the way more people should be in love. Too many people see love as something given without restraint, and yeah, love should be unconditional but in order for love to be unconditional you have to do the work to lay good foundation. To be utilitarian in loving is not an act of weakness, or a symbol of lack of confidence, it is a showcase of more care in love than most have to offer. We care for things, and place value on them determined by how much love and care goes into those things.
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I also don't see Nico's self blaming for what happened as flawed, it's logical in his situation, and a common result of CEN. This self blame shows care and kindness, and this coincides with Nico's arcs, "If I am bad, how do I improve? If I have no choice but to be evil, how do I still be good?". Nico is always fighting not to be recognized for good or bad, but to be recognized for what he is.
Trust is not naivety either, the only reason Nico is regarded as naïve is because of the extreme circumstances of his life. People shouldn't have to expect abuse from people who are supposed to love them, people should have to accept abuse in order to receive love. If Nico's life had turned out different, his naivety wouldn't be viewed as a weakness but a strength- a kindness.
We're not actually viewing Nico all that different, there's this space where his character blurs together, and it becomes an individual duty to determine at what point a flaw becomes a strength, and a strength a flaw. Nico's stubbornness is a flaw if we're thinking about grudges, but it's a strength in his work ethic. Nico's ability to stand on his own is a strength in terms of questing, but it's a flaw when it prevents him from experiencing love in fullness.
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hufflly-puffs · 5 years
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Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Chapter 9: The Woes of Mrs Weasley
So Dumbledore might have his reasons why he avoids Harry (afraid Voldemort will use him as a spy) but he even walks past Mr Weasley without bothering to tell him that Harry got cleared. Rude.
“‘Oh, it’s a simple enough anti-jinx,’ said Mr Weasley as they mounted the stairs, ‘but it’s not so much having to repair the damage, it’s more the attitude behind the vandalism, Harry. Muggle-baiting might strike some wizards as funny, but it’s an expression of something much deeper and nastier, and I for one –’” – I know I mentioned this a couple of times before but my love for Arthur Weasley is based on his love for Muggles. His job isn’t just about keeping the State of Secrecy but for him it is about protecting Muggles. He has a genuine interest in them and respect of how they manage to live without magic, but he is also aware how helpless they are towards wizards. And he is aware what it tells about a wizard or witch if they abuse their power to torment Muggles. That is why he was so outraged when Fred and George did the very same thing in book 4 with Dudley. To them it was just a prank, but Mr Weasley deals with this every day, and knows that often it is something much more sinister.
“‘Malfoy’s been giving generously to all sorts of things for years … gets him in with the right people … then he can ask favours … delay laws he doesn’t want passed … oh, he’s very well-connected, Lucius Malfoy.’” – Does Lucius Malfoy actually have a job? Or is he just strolling around, spending the Malfoy fortune? It is always mentioned that he has a certain influence in the Ministry but it doesn’t seem like he works there.
“‘Mr Weasley,’ said Harry slowly, ‘if Fudge is meeting Death Eaters like Malfoy, if he’s seeing them alone, how do we know they haven’t put the Imperius Curse on him?’” – Mr Weasley says that Dumbledore thinks Fudge is acting on his own, but the thing is they have no proof. For all we know Malfoy could have put him under the Imperius Curse, telling him to act like usual, but to report to him regular. It is fortunate for the Death Eaters and Voldemort that the Minister refuses to see the dangers right in front of him, so that they can continue to work in the underground.
“He looked up into the handsome wizard’s face, but close-to Harry thought he looked rather weak and foolish. The witch was wearing a vapid smile like a beauty contestant, and from what Harry knew of goblins and centaurs, they were most unlikely to be caught staring so soppily at humans of any description. Only the house-elf’s attitude of creeping servility looked convincing.” – Ah yes, the “Fountain of Magical Brethren”. I think Dumbledore talks about at the end of the book, after the fight in the Department of Mysteries, telling Harry that the fountain represents a lie. Harry in part already notices that, realizing that neither a Goblin or a Centaur would look admiringly at a wizard or witch. But it is not just that: the word brethren would imply they are equal, when they are not. Even though they have their own kind of magic, Goblins and House-Elves are denied to carry a wand (I’m not sure if Centaurs have magic of their own as well). And their mistreatment will have severe consequences within the story (see Kreacher in this book and Griphook in book 7, but also the way Harry’s kindness towards Dobby and later Kreacher will help him defeating Voldemort). Later on, after Voldemort took over the Ministry in book 7, the fountain is replaced by the “Magic is Might”-Statue, that no longer pretends that everyone is equal but rather shows the ugly truth of Voldemort’s regime: that wizards are superior to everyone.
“‘I knew it!’ yelled Ron, punching the air. ‘You always get away with stuff!’ ‘They were bound to clear you,’ said Hermione, who had looked positively faint with anxiety when Harry had entered the kitchen and was now holding a shaking hand over her eyes, ‘there was no case against you, none at all.’ ‘Everyone seems quite relieved, though, considering you all knew I’d get off,’ said Harry, smiling.” – It is interesting to see how different Ron and Hermione react. I think Hermione was much more aware of the sincerity of the situation; she knew that the Ministry would use any chance to get rid of Harry, legal or not. Ron instead looks at it like it was just another instance of Harry breaking the rules, and because Harry is Harry he obviously got away with it.
“‘Suit yourselves. But I sometimes think Ron’s mum’s right and Sirius gets confused about whether you’re you or your father, Harry.’ ‘So you think he’s touched in the head?’ said Harry heatedly. ‘No, I just think he’s been very lonely for a long time,’ said Hermione simply.” – Harry notices that Sirius alone doesn’t seem as happy as everyone else that Harry got cleared and will return to Hogwarts. Hermione suspects that Sirius might have hoped that he and Harry could be outcasts together. And I think she could be right in some ways. I mean obviously Sirius wants the best for Harry and knows that Harry belongs in Hogwarts, but he has been very lonely. And despite his house being the headquarters for the Order Sirius doesn’t feel like he belongs. He can’t actively help them, can’t even leave the house. Sirius is no longer in Azkaban but he is still trapped. And both Hermione and Mrs Weasley have enough distance to see the things Harry refuses to see when it comes to his godfather.
Ron complains that they have to clean the house, that he feels like a house-elf. Mrs Wesley reminds him that he wanted to help the Order and in cleaning its headquarters he is doing it, even though Ron thinks cleaning is beneath him, which basically disrespects the work his mother is doing every day. Hermione then suggest they could clean the Gryffindor common room to help raise awareness for S.P.E.W. And that made me thinking… if you grew up like the Malfoys or other old wizard families, with a house-elf doing all the housework, and it’s the same at Hogwarts, do they never actually learn to clean? Or to cook? (And I guess in real life there are people who grew up so privileged, so used of other people doing their work, they couldn’t live on their own.)
“‘One sacked, one dead, one’s memory removed and one locked in a trunk for nine months,’ said Harry, counting them off on his fingers. ‘Yeah, I see what you mean.’” – Do you think Hogwarts students over the years developed a mnemonic for the ways the DADA teachers lost their jobs the same way there exists a mnemonic for the fates of the wives of Henry VIII? (“Divorced, beheaded, died; divorced, beheaded, survived.”)
So, Ron being a prefect is… unexpected. From the point of the audience, as Harry is our main character, and therefore naturally everything happens to him, but also within the story, as Harry is special and gets special treatment. I don’t think Ron was the first choice, but rather became prefect instead of Harry. Dumbledore later explains his decision that he didn’t wanted to give Harry another responsibility. However Harry (and everyone else) sees the position of being a prefect rather as a privilege instead of a burden. Maybe Dumbledore had hoped it would give Ron more confidence, but as he has to take over more responsibility, that it would make him also more mature. Ron is the second youngest in a large family; he is not used to be in control. And I think Ron deserves something that is his own, that he doesn’t have to share with Harry, and a party for him and present. He deserves to be the special one for once. However, Kingsley argues that Dumbledore would have made a sign with making Harry a prefect, showing that he trusts Harry. There are two sides to it.
I think Molly reacts as overly enthusiastic to Ron becoming a prefect because  being a prefect is a reward, it is a privilege, and one that has nothing to do with money. We see the Weasley children having both academic and professional success: Bill, Charlie, Percy and Ron were prefects (is it ever mentioned if Ginny had been a prefect as well?), Bill and Percy were head boy, they all later started successful careers. They made something out of themselves, despite their parents not being able to support them financially. Their success is rightfully earned. And that is immensely important for both Molly and Arthur, that the system rewards hard work, that their children are given the same opportunities as everyone else. They are the opposite of the Malfoys in every way, whose influence and reputation is built on their wealth.
“But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn’t choose prefects because they’ve got themselves into a load of dangerous situations … maybe he chooses them for other reasons … Ron must have something you don’t … Harry opened his eyes and stared through his fingers at the wardrobe’s clawed feet, remembering what Fred had said: ‘No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect …’ Harry gave a small snort of laughter. A second later he felt sickened with himself.” -  And then we have Harry’s reaction, and again it shows us a less sympathetic aspect of him. He even admits that he isn’t better at anything than Ron except maybe Quidditch. And yet. I wrote about privilege before and how Harry often is unaware of his own privileges, and book 5 is the one where a lot of them are taken away. He doesn’t become prefect, he will be banned from the Quidditch team, people constantly question him and his story, thinking of him as an attention seeking liar. And Harry often reacts angry to it, which is understandable, but he also turns his anger to those who are not responsible for his situation (Ron & Hermione), which is not fair. A lot of book 5 is about growth, which we will see in book 6. It is ok to show Harry in this less sympathetic way, because it makes him a rounder, more complex and interesting character, but it also shows us the change he is going through. It makes him a better person in the end.
“‘Thanks,’ said Hermione. ‘Erm – Harry – could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They’ll be really pleased – I mean prefect is something they can understand.’” – Does anyone wonder why Hermione spends her holidays with the Order instead of her family? Last year she was at the Weasley’s because of the Quidditch World Cup, but what about now? Are her parents aware of the danger she is in? That Voldemort has returned? That her best friends and their families are part of the resistance? Did she tell them that the headquarters of the Order would be the safest place for her? Or did she feed them some lie why she had to leave them earlier, afraid they might not allow her to return to Hogwarts if they would know the truth?
Also, one last thing about the prefects: everyone assumes Dumbledore chooses the new prefects, but then why would he make Draco and Pansy Slytherin prefects? That is more likely a choice Snape would have made.
“Harry’s mood suddenly lifted. His father had not been a prefect either. All at once the party seemed much more enjoyable; he loaded up his plate, feeling doubly fond of everyone in the room.” – And then of course there are expectations: Ron lives up to his family expectations, something he was always afraid he would not be able to, to be not good enough. Harry on the other hand feels better that his father had not been a prefect either; it is not something his parents would have expected of him or be disappointed about.
“Harry watched them go, feeling slightly uneasy. It had just occurred to him that Mr and Mrs Weasley would want to know how Fred and George were financing their joke shop business when, as was inevitable, they finally found out about it. Giving the twins his Triwizard winnings had seemed a simple thing to do at the time, but what if it led to another family row and a Percy-like estrangement? Would Mrs Weasley still feel that Harry was as good as her son if she found out he had made it possible for Fred and George to start a career she thought quite unsuitable?” – There is something quite heartbreaking with Harry being afraid to lose Mrs Weasley’s affection. But also Harry thinking about the consequences of his actions, that something that had seem right and simple could possibly lead to another huge fight within the Weasley family, that is that ideal version of family for him, but that he is also part of.
I wonder if Moody thought seeing his parents in an old photograph would cheer Harry up, but the opposite is the truth. Learning about all the members of the original Order, about their fates, only makes him again realize how serious the current situation is, that they are at war, and that all the people around him are in danger. I wonder if Harry ever knew that Fabian and Gideon Prewett were Molly’s brothers. I know she gave him her brother’s watch for his 17th birthday, but I don’t remember if she had mentioned his name, or if she ever talked at all with her children about her brothers and how she lost them.
·         I also can’t believe that young Sirius had short hair, because every Marauders fan art always shows him with long hair.
“And then, to see them surrounded by all those other happy faces … Benjy Fenwick, who had been found in bits, and Gideon Prewett, who had died like a hero, and the Longbottoms, who had been tortured into madness … all waving happily out of the photograph forever more, not knowing that they were doomed … well, Moody might find that interesting … he, Harry, found it disturbing …” – Even though wizard photographs seem to be balive they only show a moment in time, forever trapped in the same state of oblivious happiness, not knowing what will happen to them.
“You weren’t in the Order then, you don’t understand. Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one …’” – Which gives you a picture of how many followers Voldemort had/still has, and how small the resistance was. And that is why it is so important for the public to know about Voldemort’s return. So they can be prepared, so that those against him outnumber his followers.
“But Harry, closing his bedroom door behind him some ten minutes later, could not think Mrs Weasley silly. He could still see his parents beaming up at him from the tattered old photograph, unaware that their lives, like so many of those around them, were drawing to a close. The image of the Boggart posing as the corpse of each member of Mrs Weasley’s family in turn kept flashing before his eyes. […]Harry ignored it. He felt older than he had ever felt in his life and it seemed extraordinary to him that barely an hour ago he had been worried about a joke shop and who had got a prefect’s badge.” – Things are put very hard in perspective for Harry. For how eager he was to join the Order and annoyed by Molly mothering him, he know truly realizes what it means to be in the Order. That Mrs Weasley dreads a member of her family gets hurt (it is interesting that her Boggart turned into a dead Harry as well, next to her husband and her sons, but we never see a dead Ginny), remembering the last war and how she lost two brothers. Because Voldemort doesn’t act out in the open yet Harry for a moment or two forget that they are all in danger, that the war has already started. There are no victims yet, but there will be.
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