#which is why I'm against incest and minor/adult relationships

[transwolvie]

Makes me think of the hierarchy of sex discussion, because in order to uphold the hierarchy they must push the myth that letting anything over the boundary set between "normal" sex and "weird" sex would mean letting EVERYTHING over that boundary and a full societal collapse into degeneracy. That argument probably sounds pretty familiar. People who say that gay marriage will lead to sex with ducks, people who are insistent that the gays want to include pedophilia, etc.

You see an interesting turn of this too, where people are insistent that ANY censorship or limits would lead to everything that deserves to be normalized being pushed back into the realm of "weird" sex, too, which is fascinating, because I think most of us can fairly say that we can, in fact, ban things such as porn of minors (especially irl minors, looking at youuuu AO3!) without somehow going back to the days when all queer art was subjugated. A kind of knee-jerk reaction (mmm reactionary movements) to the fact that our overall society has always pushed this slippery slope myth, and thus the fact that the larger, controlling groups of society will in fact try to ban any and all queer expression as degenerate.

But here's the thing. It's a myth. We can let things over the line without descending into chaos, because the line is made the fuck up. Accepting furries does NOT mean accepting zoophilia. Accepting LGBT+ people does NOT mean accepting pedophilia. On its face that should be OBVIOUS, since these things are hardly related at all. The only thing that groups them together is that they are currently societally taboo. and the cool thing about society is that you can still keep certain taboos even as you move into a more progressive society. in fact you uh. SHOULD keep certain taboos (@ libertarians. stop being nasty.)

When people present it as some weird zero-sum game they are lyingggg to you. It is not a slippery slope, it is a clear decision we can make and a line we can set as a society that LGBT+ people are normal, that kink is normal, that something as simple as furries are NORMAL, without somehow letting the big bad boogieman of "evil" and "wrong" sex in

#tomi talks #like idk how to explain to ppl that it is in fact not hard to retain ur morals #like someone once tried to tell me that I couldn't identify as an 'anti' and that 'antis' would hate me too #because I'm into cnc. and I'm just like #well you see the thing that matters to me is consent #which is why I'm against incest and minor/adult relationships #and you see the kink 'consensual non consent' is pretty explicitly consensual #so I don't really give a fuck what anyone who labels themselves as an 'anti' or not thinks if they can't comprehend that concept tbh! #and I don't give a fuck abt what that person said abt 'antis' either cuz they clearly couldn't comprehend the concept of respecting consent #since they thought incest and minor/adult content are just fiiine. #dhjgdg like idk man I didn't compromise my morals I'm not trying to fit under a specific label #I just think maybe consent is important? wild concept

[l0gic1]

Bro ppl can ship whatever they want. You're not the fiction police. Relax.

I don't even know how to respond to this insanely stupid thing that someone took the time to write out.

Let's use our brain cells for a few seconds, shall we?

Now, let's think about why I might be against the ships I'm against. First of all, let's start with my favorite: Heimtreus.

Heimdall and Atreus hate each other. Heimdall verbally abused and bullied Atreus for the majority of the Asgard sequence. Heimdall is, what, thousands of years old? And Atreus is 14. Those are two problematic things right there.

verbal abuse

pedophilia / minor x adult

Now, do you really think it is 'just fiction' when someone decides that an abusive relationship is 'cute' or 'uwu'? Or when they decide that a young teenager and a fully grown adult would be 'so good' together? No, of course not. It takes no thought process to figure out why this is such a big deal to me. Because they're romanticizing abuse and pedophilia, which are not cute things, and, a lot of the time, sexualizing a minor.

Imagine seeing a child being called useless, a moron, incompetent, or just being bullied / verbally abused in general and thinking to ship them with the person abusing them.

Or for Kratreus, which is Kratos x Atreus. Kratos is Atreus's father. Atreus is 14. A minor is being shipped with an adult who is also his damn dad.

I get your perspective, but your view isn't rational. 'Live and let be' is not something that applies to something that is objectively harmful (i.e., romanticizing abuse or pedophilia).

Usually, I'd agree with you; ship discourse is commonly frivolous and infinitesimal. However, when a ship is between an abuser and their victim, or between a father and his 14-year-old son, that is when it becomes problematic and something worth fighting against.

Telling someone to 'relax' instead of actually listening to their arguments indicates that you don't have the maturity or the will to even ask me why I am so against it and want these people to not interact with me. If you had actually critically thought about what I said and thought before you typed out this absent-minded comment, perhaps you would've learned something. Yet here we are. And I don't care if I'm being mean, as you didn't even bother to compute my arguments, you didn't even bring up any of the points in my other post, and if you didn't see that post, you didn't even bother to ask or do a bit of research into why I don't like those people or hate those ships.

Verbal abuse or bullying isn't fucking hot, adorable, or some quirky UWU aesthetic. Pedophilia and incest aren't fucking hot, adorable, or some quirky UWU aesthetic.

Ships aren't just ships anymore when they are between an abuser and their victim or a father and his 14-year-old son.

Something that's abusive, pedophilic, or otherwise problematic shouldn't be shipped. Not hard to understand. I don't even know what mental gymnastics you had to go through to arrive at this conclusion.

-S

It probably wasn't worth it to respond to this but I'm bored and pissed off <3

#gow #gowr #gow ragnarok #godofwar #godofwarragnarok #atreus #atreusgodofwar #atreusgodofwarragnarok #heimdall gow #heimdall #kratos god of war #kratosgow #kratos #stupidity #i feel strongly about this #im not sorry #abuse is not hot #fuck proshippers #im this close #i want to kms /j #jesus fucking christ #i hate people #idk how to tag lmao

[mintacle]

I am so going to regret making this post. But I've been thinking about this for weeks, and if for nothing else but my peace of mind, I have to say this.

Let's talk about fandom. Specifically the batfandom, and very specifically the meta-fandom issue of batcest.

Before you unfollow me I would like to state that nothing of the content on my blog will change. I still personally don't ship batcest and don't post mature stuff. I just want to make a post in defense of neutrality. And I know that at least one of my followers is a victim of incest themselves, if you are reading this, this post is not about you. Your case is inherently different and I really understand and you really don't have to read this. But if you identify as anti-batcest, this is for you. And please read this, seriously please. I am asking you as someone who was in a sect, never take the right from yourself to read opposing views. They will not corrupt you. Have that faith in yourself and trust yourself to read things that oppose your views.

That having been said, let's start. I think there is a troubling trend for people to condemn other fans on the basis of whether they ship members of the batfam together or not. And I don't think it's wrong for people to say that it's weird bc it's incest. You are so allowed to have your own opinion and no one can take that from you. But the issue has become very polarized. I don't see people who casually say that they don't really like batcest. There is this push to filter and cancel everything on this basis alone. And the reason I think this is troubling is because it is opposition without discourse. If you really think that shipping batcest is morally aprehensive, then think about WHY. Really, really think about it. Who is getting hurt here? What problems is this creating? Why do you feel so strongly about this?

I think there is a massive effect of in-grouping causing this extreme opposition. It is hard to remain neutral when you see such a big number of other blogs proudly going on about how wrong shipping batcest is. And this is again coming from someone who was in a sect. That's a bit scary to me. You want to fit in, not be condemned as well, so you add your voice to the mix and say that batcest is horrible, repulsive. And the people who ship it are too.

But the thing you are raging against? This issue? It's not real. And I'm not talking about whether it really is incest or not, again, I don't personally care. I'm talking about how this is such a small problem with absolutely no real life implications. There's a lot of things that are wrong in this world, and I believe you that you have been hurt, but I don't think that this cause you've been fighting is one of those harmful things in the world. I think there is a reason why you are angry, why you are lashing out. I think there's a reason you are looking for someone to take the role of a predator you can attack in big numbers, anonymously, online. But batcest is always tagged, and always a place that intentionally discourages minors from engaging. That's not adult arrogance, that is adults trying to protect you. That is adults making safespaces for themselves. And that's not predatory behaviour.

One thing that I sometimes see within the batcest community which bothers me, is how I get this feeling some people do fetishize gay relationships and can't treat men having close and intimate relationships without it being romantic or sexual. But this is by no means a problem that was created or that is a defining trait of batcest, that's just a general problem of shipping culture. And this is not even something that is overly prevalent in the batcest community. A large number of fandoms are way worse in this regard.

I probably won't be talking about this again and I am worried that I'll lose followers just for this and I'm hoping to be proved wrong about that. If you follow me and feel in any way strongly about this post, please message me privately instead of reblogging to publically drag me. My private chat is open for that and I do genuinely care about all of my followers, feel welcome to message me.

#I'm not tagging this as anything because it is only meant for my followers #reblogs are allowed #for now #don't be mean about it

[olderthannetfic]

from what i understand the only main arguments about incest are the chance of genetic issues, and the chance of grooming/coercion as a result of growing up together. so people who are only "siblings" because they were adopted as near-adults shouldn't have an issue, and antis are exposing that they can't think of an argument besides "it makes me feel icky!!" (or for that matter, same-sex siblings for whom having kids together would be impossible anyways) (or I guess, "treating an adopted family member as anything different than blood-related would make them feel bad :( :(" which i don't really understand this perspective, adoption isn't bad it's just reality that they don't share genes, no reason pretending they do.)

--

At its heart, incest is a violation of social norms.

Boning your sibling whom you grew up with in a typical sibling relationship is taboo in pretty much all cultures. Saying it's only about genetics is indeed pretty rude to adopted people who still share conventional sibling relationships and would still be violating the social taboo.

Yeah, genetics underlies the taboo in part, but it's clearly not just about genetics or we wouldn't see those interesting splits where a culture views one set of first cousins as super taboo and another set as ideal marriage candidates.

Like a lot of social norms around marriage, a big chunk of it is about power: consolidating a family's power, keeping people in the same tier of family they started out in and not having them marry into an older generation of that same family, etc.

(And historical incest taboos very much are about marriage, not just furtive experimentation, though we tend to focus more on the sex and babies stuff in the modern day.)

--

But yes, you are correct that there's no real argument against incest other than "ew".

Abusive relationships within families are already bad, whether or not they're sexual. Using your power over someone to coerce them is already bad, sex or no sex, incest or no incest. It's not the incest cooties that make abuse bad: It's bad because it is abuse.

Genetic diseases are a danger, sure, but I'm trying to get pregnant and just got a massive battery of genetic tests done and am a carrier for basically nothing. Meanwhile, I've got friends who are from ethnic groups with a huge burden of genetic diseases who have to be quite careful. There is no genetic argument that would stop me from boning a relative without wishing genocide on a bunch of minority groups.

Historical inbreeding certainly takes a toll on a population, but modern people can avoid gruesome genetic diseases with science. And that's presupposing we're talking about people who want to or even can have a kid together and not just relatives who hook up one time.

The strongest argument against incest that is actually logically consistent is that having an openly incestuous relationship with someone most people consider too closely related (a sibling, say) will mean you face a lot of hostility and disapproval, and this will be stressful. It will probably cause drama in your family. People will think it's gross and assume it's abusive or a sign of mental illness.

Basically, socially taboo relationships are hard on people.

...and it's no surprise that most of the spluttering, incoherent, "I don't like it, that's why!" arguments against incest sound a lot like old arguments against gay relationships or interracial marriage, right down to the strawman that we must be referring to an abusive flavor and not two consenting adults who know what they're getting into.

[dryades-angeli]

Problematic ships & stuff

Honestly. I hate the shipping community. I think I'll ignore them in the future. I have my ships that I love and that nobody will piss me off. No matter what they say. Still, I would like to leave a few words. 1. Problematic ships between relatives (incest): Apart from the fact that nobody shouldn't equate fiction with reality... In some countries incest is allowed to a certain extent and also has a certain tradition. For example, incest was completely normal in late Japan. And Clans, for example, is a large incestuous family tribe. I don't mean to say that you should ship incest pairs. For example, I absolutely cannot imagine any ships between parents and children or bitween siblings. But I don't have to. Incest existed and incest is still allowed to a certain extent. How much differs from country to country. But a little tolerance towards those who like it would be nice. 2. Problematic ships with minors or a large age difference: Sometimes ships that are actually canon are even blamed. I can understand if you are not comfortable with ships where a 40 year old man is with a 15 year old girl. But sometimes I experience things... For example, a god can never habe a Relationship with a person, because he´s so much older. Or a thousand year old creature with an adult lady. Sorry But I think that's ridiculous. Or ships between under 16s. As if there hadn’t been a teenager on this planet who hadn’t had sex before the age of 16. If the person is 14 or younger and the partner is over 20, I don't like that either. But even here I can only say: it is fiction. You don't have to ship it, but let others enjoy it. 3. You are against LGBTQ+, if you ship/don´t ship that: The person is not homophobic, just because they don't like Yaoi / Yuri ships. This is completely ridiculous. For example, I am not a lesbian, but I except lesbian couples. It should be the same with the shippings. Just as one should accept that people ship straight characters homo, it should also be accepted when gay characters are shipped straight. If you ship homosexual couples straight, you're not a homophobic. We're talking about fiction here, folks. And the argument, that homosexual ships should stay homo, because homosexuals are already underrepresented, doesn't work for me. For me, the majority of the shipping community are Fujoshis. My first ship that I shipped was a Yaoi ship. Nobody can tell me that homosexuality is underrepresented in the Shippingcommunity. And just as you can express your homosexuality through shippings, I can also express my heterosexuality through shippings. In my opinion, acceptance shouldn't work in one direction only. 4. The Canon-Defenders: I have to say, that I was pretty relaxed about canon before I got into the shipping community. Now I have the feeling: Every pair of canons destroys something for me. Which is why I now more than hate Canon. It’s bullshit. Just because something is canon does not mean that I can no longer ship the characters with others and have my own opinion. Even if some Canon enthusiasts think so. It isn´t so. Of course, it's great when the couple you ship become canon after all. But I find that a lot of people get too fixated on Canon. Either they filter each image individually from the Mangapanel in order to rub others under the nose: Here. Have a look. they are definitely canon. Or your ship is canon and then of course nothing else can be shipped... So stop shippng you fav ship, because X is with Z canon now. That's why I'm so at war with Canon. Because canon defenders ruin all creativity and fun with shipping ships. 5. Unhealthy ships: There are unhealthy ships that I like and there are unhealthy ships that I don't like. Everyone has their own opinion and they are allowed to have that too. But there are people who deliberately want to make shipping look unhealthy and interpret something into situations and behavior between the characters... I don't think I have to say more about that... My wish from the Shippingcommunity: 1. Don´t use words like problematic, homophobic oder unhealthy, to put you

above the person who ships the shipping. It doesn't make the person morally reprehensible, just because they ship it and it doesn't make you a better person, just because you don't ship it. Likewise, terms like "white", "asian" or "western". For me, that has no place in the shipping community. 2. Do not comment or dislike pictures, videos, posts that are from shippings that you do not like. Just ignore them. Better to focus on your ships. 3. If there are ships that you don't like, you can say so. Use anti-tags, don't just agitate against it and stay constructive. Thanks. ♥

#shippings #shipping #anti shipping #anime / manga #retro anime #anime #manga #manga and stuff

[sapphicnaturalrights]

Who's behind the event?

@roublardise impulsively created the sideblog and then ran to @knifelesbianjo for help to set it up.

How do I get rb on the blog?

You can tag your posts with #sapphicnaturalrights and/or @ us in the post.

What type of content can I make?

We encourage to celebrate all the diversity of the sapphic experience! From lesbian specific experience, to a-spec experiences, being a sapphic of color, nb sapphic, trans sapphic, ... Every topic is welcome as long as it fits the prompts, and doesn't go against our guidelines (see below).

As such, all kind of content is welcome, may it be art, gif, vid, fic, playlists, meta, headcanon, ... anything you think about!

Do I have to make content for each day?

No, to participate you don't have to make content for everyday, just the ones you want, even if it's only one. You can also use one or both prompts for each day, mix them up, and make more than one post for each day.

Can I submit older posts to one of the prompts?

Yes, older works are allowed if they fit the prompts, just @ us in the post! We'd love to bring back to attention older content.

I'm running late, can I still post?

Yes, works posted late are allowed too and would be reblogged. Especially as "late" is relative, because we're all working on different timezones. There will be overlap between the prompts being rbed.

Is the event safe for minors?

If a work is nsfw we ask you to tag it #minors dni, we'll do the same when we reblog it. Minors are asked to blacklist the tag, or to not interact with that content.

Why haven't I been reblogged?

We might have not seen it yet (we're only two running the event, so it may take us some time), but if you're worry we've missed the post in the tags, you can @ us or send us the link to make sure we see it.

Other reason can be that we think your post goes against our guidelines, which we remind you are:

No headcanon of Claire or Charlie assuming they're attracted to men

No content of canon men characters being portrayed as sapphic

No minor/adult romantic or sexual relationships

No incest

If a content is deemed homophobic, transphobic and/or racist, we reserve the right to not rb it

Why don't you accept bi/pan Claire? Does she explicitly states she doesn't like men?

Though Claire never explicitly said she was a lesbian and not attracted to men (unlike Charlie) the text still very much supports this.

She never shows any interest in men, but is shown being flustered by women multiple times (with Kaia, but also in 10x10). The way homosexual attraction is written isn't only through what we see, but also through what we don't see, and in the case of Claire she specifically doesn't care about men in canon. So we believe assuming she likes men is lesbian erasure.

Other lesbians have talked about it, there was a post some time around with other "signs" which makes Claire canonically lesbian-coded. All in all, it's not said, but it's very much shown.

.

If you have any other questions, you can check out the asks we already replied to & send us an ask!

#infos

[dailyelastigirl]

why do you tag helen and her kids as ship? like helen/dash? i'm just wondering if you intentionally do it as a ship (which is bad cause its yknow minor/adult and incest) or if its just a mistake?

God this is the second time I’ve got this in my ask… To make things clear when I put Helen/Dash or Helen/jack jack or Helen/Violet. It’s not intended as a romantic Ship or anything it’s because they are in the same picture. Nothing else moreover in my navigation page it’s written that it is not a romantic relationship. When I tag things like that it’s because when people are searching something in my blog they can find it easily like if you want to see a fanart of Helen and violet together as a FAMILY well you find it under the tag Helen/violet.

Anyway I have nothing against you anon and I understand your concern but really I’m not trying to ship Helen with her kids! It’s just my way of tagging for helping moreover I love to have a certain structure in my blog…

In other words I don’t tag them as a romantic relationship but a family bond. Check for yourself in my navigation page…

#my blogging #ask #not mad or angry at you anon #this is going to become really depressing if I only receive this kind of ask. #I wish I had some other things in my askbox... :/ #I won’t change my way of tagging again... really lost

[sofipitch]

i noticed a post about you being against incest and i really want to understand. nobody really has an answer for me and i want to know. why is it bad? if it is between 2 close in age relatives (i.e. cousins or siblings) and they ensure 1000% there will never be the slightest chance of having kids, why is it wrong? what if it were 2 cis gay brothers just a few years apart? why would it be wrong?

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you don't have siblings. Most ppl who make these arguments don't.

All modern day cultures have a taboo against incest, and with the exception of a few ancient cultures, have an incest taboo. This makes the idea of incest as bad a cultural universal, something culturally shared by all human beings. This idea also precedes a lot of understanding of genetics, which can explain why first cousin marriages were relatively common but sibling marriages were not.

There are a few different theories as to why humans avoid and dislike incest. One super old one is that having sexual relationships within a family can fuck up the family relationship. Kind of how most people wouldn't have sex with their friends because it might ruin their friendship, the same could happen with siblings.

The one that I understand the most and was taught in an evolutionary psychology class was that humans are hardwired to be less attracted to people they grew up with in the same household, which is the brain's way of making sure you don't produce children with your sibling and pass on less desirable traits. There is experimental evidence to support this theory.

Within families there's the issue of power dynamics as well. You put close in age because you understand that adult/minor relationships can't exist because a minor cannot ever full consent to have sex with an adult because adults have power over minors. The same dynamic exists in families. Older and/or male siblings are more likely to hold power over younger and/or female siblings (the male/female thing applies for families that are sexist, I have seen EXTREME cases of this where a son can do no wrong and the daughter is an afterthought).

You can read more here: https://www.encyclopedia.com/reference/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/incestinbreeding-taboos

Honestly, you ask most people with siblings or close cousins if they would have sex with them and their response is going to be revulsion.

#ask

[freedom-of-fanfic]

forgive me if i'm misinterpreting this; you say everyone is free to write what they like, but yet simultaneously people are not free to respond to said writing. i'm aware of the definition of defamation but this still seems a little one-sided to me. if people are freely publishing their works regardless of content in places where anyone can respond to them, why is this right to respond forbidden, even if it is inflammatory in nature?

(I’ve previously answered an ask on the same subject.)

this is a perfectly fine ask, and it reminded me that i’ve been meaning to re-write my blog description for clarity. so here’s the rewrite:

anyone is free to create any fanwork they want. others are free to dislike it. but nobody is free to defame, harass, or harm other people for their fiction.

(nobody should be free to defame, harass, or harm other people for any other reason, either, but this is the area my blog specifically deals in.)

long story short: of course you’re allowed to write a negative review, say you think a fanwork is awful, argue with a creator, etc. But for a long, long time now, some factions of fandom have:

held fanworks to an absurd degree of perfection (or even beyond it)

read/imagined a million things in fanworks as providing decisive proof of the creator’s tastes and behavior irl

insisted fanworks have amazing power to influence and harm members of fandom, particularly minors

all while acting as if their own (non-fanwork) negative words and poor behavior in fandom is of absolutely no consequence, no influence, no possible negative effect at all.

Ultimately, I think both creators and reviewers should be held accountable for presenting their content responsibly. this means:

fanwork creators need to:

 tag their content accurately so that those who wish to avoid particular subjects, relationship dynamics, dark themes, and ships can do so. 

or, in places where it’s appropriate (such as AO3), they should clearly and strongly indicate they are choosing to not flag their content and therefore are not saying whether or not it contains dark or potentially harmful themes. consumers proceed at their own risk.

flag adult/nsfw content as adult where possible, limiting its availability to minors (at least minors who are honest about their age, which of course all minors who want to avoid nsfw content are. right?)

people reacting to fanworks/sharing fanworks need to:

avoid making assumptions about the creator based solely on their fanwork (including their gender identity/sexual orientation, their race, their nationality, their past experiences, and their motivations for creating the fanwork.)

focus on the creation, not its creator. (Death to the Author and all that.)

clearly own that their opinions are opinions - not facts and not absolutes - and understand that others may have different opinions.

use words honestly. don’t be inflammatory and use buzzwords for a hot reaction. don’t call things that aren’t pedophilia ‘pedophilia’. don’t call things that aren’t incest ‘incest’. 

and everyone in fandom needs to recognize that the nature of modern social media’s reblog/retweet/reshare functions means that anything we say has the potential to be utterly separated from its original context and used as a bludgeon against others. Work hard to keep creative content+warnings or reviews+disclaimers united and/or inseparable. You will thank yourself later!

so tl;dr: creators are allowed to create whatever they want in the realm of fiction. everyone else can react however they want … as long as it isn’t abusing/harassing/intimidating the creator, making up lies or exaggerating the flaws of the work, or spreading the work for the purpose of mocking and deriding it. 

Essentially: if you’re creating a fanwork, you avoid being a dick by making it as easy as possible for people who don’t want to see it to avoid it. If you’re reacting to a work you chose to look at, you avoid being a dick by not treating the author like shit or setting them up for/subjecting them to abusive dogpiling and harassment.

I won’t say being kind costs nothing, because I think being kind is hard as fuck. But if you can’t be kind or assume the best, don’t waste time on fury when you could be finding a fanwork you actually like instead.  You’ll be making the world a more pleasant space one less harassment at a time.

and seriously: let’s bring back the concept of something being in poor taste. not everything has to be systematically problematic to still be insensitive or mean.

#in defense of fanworks #in defense of darkfic #freedom vs censorship #responsible critique #web 2.0 is the worst thing to happen to fandom #and god i'm tired of judging fic on its morality #let's not