#Fandom Discourse

[this-is-a-love-story-isnt-it]

Ok what’s the difference between “meta” and “discourse” when it comes to fandom?

#meta #fandom meta #fandom discourse #discourse

[ryin-silverfish]

One nerd's musing about Chinese religion and "respect"

-I try to stay away from fandom discourse, but, much like how you can smell the stench from a dumpster fire without walking into said dumpster fire, I've noticed something that seemed to come up a lot in western JTTW + adjacent fandoms: "respect Chinese religion".

-Usually as a reason for why you shouldn't ship a character, because of fucking course it's shipping discourse too.

-And my first reaction is "Man, you are taking Chinese religion too darn seriously, more than people who are born and raised in China."

-My second reaction is "I mean, most of us are atheist/agnostic by default anyways, with a good number of what I'd call 'atheist/agnostics with superstitions': people who said they were not religious, yet believed in Fengshui or divinations and burnt incense at temples for good luck."

-My third reaction: "But why do I get the feeling that when you mention 'Respect', you are thinking about something completely different?"

-Then I reread an essay from Anthony C. Yu, "Religion and Literature in China: The "Obscure Way" of Journey to the West", and the metaphorical lightbulb just lit up over my head.

(Everything below applies more to Daoism + associated folk religions, but by the time when most classic Chinese vernacular novels were written, the blending of the three religions had become well and truly mainstream.)

(The conception of gods differs from dynasty to dynasty. What I'm describing here is mostly based on Ming and Qing ones; if you went back to Han or pre-Qin times, most of these would not apply.)

(I am one of the "atheist/agnostic by default" people. I just have an interest in this kind of stuff. I am also just one Chinese person, and an actual Daoist/Buddhist/Religion Studies researcher would probably have a lot more valuable information and perspective to offer when it comes to contemporary practices and worship. Like any people on the internet: take my words with a grain of salt.)

-Even in the past, when society was far less secularized, Chinese gods are not omniscient, perfect beings whose worship is a solemn, humorless affair. Some's worship are Serious Business, but that has more to do with the sort of gods they are and the patronage they enjoy, not godhood in and of itself.

-And even the ones that you are supposed to "treat seriously" are still very human. To use an analogy I've used plenty of times before: you respect and fear them in the same way you'd respect and fear an emperor's official, or the emperor himself, because if you don't, you are not gonna like the consequences.

-However, unlike Jesus, the emperor & his officials were capable of being temperamental, flawed, or an outright asshole, divine or not. Ideally, they wouldn't be, and if you were one of the "serious" believers——people who actually got an official permit, became ordained clergy, and went to live in a temple, you were unlikely to think of your gods in that manner.

-But it wasn't a complete, utter impossibility. The lower you go in the pantheon, the closer you get to popular religion, the less "serious" the gods and their worship become. By that, I mean general attitude, not sincerity of faith. You still shouldn't be rude to them, but, well, they are more likely to take a joke in stride, or participate in the "vulgar" pleasures of commoners because they weren't as bound to Confucian moral standards or religious disciplines.

-To stretch the same analogy further: you should still respect your village head, they could still give your ass a good spanking for being a disrespectful brat, but you were not obligated to get on your knees and kowtow to them like you would do in front of a provincial magistrate, the emperor's minister, or the emperor himself, nor did they have the power to chop your head off just because you were rude.

-On the other hand, the emperor would never visit a random peasant just to help them fix their broken plow or treat them to a nice meal, but your village head could, and your relationship would probably be warmer and a lot more personal as a result.

-Your respect for them was more likely to stem from the things they actually did for you and the village as a whole, instead of something owed to this distant, powerful authority you might never get to see in your lifetime, but could change its course with a single stroke of a brush.

-Now exchange "village head" for your run-of-the-mill Tudis and Chenghuangs and friendly neighborhood spirits (because yes, people worshipped yaoguais for the exact same reasons), emperor + his officials for the Celestial Bureaucracy, and you'd have a basic idea of how Chinese religions worked on the ground level.

-This is far from absolute: maybe your village head was a spiteful old bastard who loved bullying his juniors, maybe your regional magistrate was an honest, upright man who could enjoy a good drink and a good laugh, maybe the emperor was a lenient one and wouldn't chop your head off for petty offenses. But their general degree of power over you and the closeness of your relationships still apply.

-Complicating the matter further, some folk gods (like Wutong) were worshipped not because they brought blessings, but because they were the divine equivalent of gangsters running a protection racket: you basically bribed them with offerings so they'd leave you alone and not wreck your shit. Famous people who died violently and were posthumously deified often fell into this category——shockingly enough, Guan Yu used to be one such god!

-Yeah, kinda like how your average guy could become an official through the imperial examinations, so could humans become gods through posthumous worship, or cultivate themselves into immortals and Enlightened beings.

-Some immortals aren't qualified for, or interested in a position in the Celestial Bureaucracy——they are the equivalent of your hermits, your cloistered Daoist priests, your common literati who kept trying and failing the exams. But some do get a job offer and gladly take it.

-Anyways, back to my original point: that's why it's so absurd when people pull the "Respect Chinese Religion1!!1!" card and immediately follow up with "Would you do X to Jesus?"

-Um, there are a lot of things you can do with Chinese gods that I'm pretty sure you can't do with Jesus. Like worshipping him side by side with Buddha and Confucius (Lao Tzu). Or inviting him to possess you and drink copious amount of alcohol (Tang-ki mediums in SEA). Or genderbend him into a woman over the course of several centuries because folks just like that version of Jesus better (Guan Yin/Avalokitesvara).

-But most importantly, Chinese religions are kinda a "free market" where you could pick and choose between gods, based on their vicinity to you and how efficient they were at answering prayers. You respect them because they'll help you out, you aren't an asshole and know your manners, and pissing them off is a bad idea in general, not because they are some omnipotent, perfect beings who demand exclusive and total reverence.

-A lot of the worship was also, well, very "practical" and almost transactional in nature: leave offerings to Great Immortal Hu, and he doesn't steal your imperial seal while you aren't looking. Perform the rites right and meditate on a Thunder General's visage, and you can temporarily channel said deity's power. Get this talisman for your kids at Bixia Yuanjun's temple, and they'll be protected from smallpox.

-"Faith alone" or "Scripture alone" is seldom the reason people worship popular deities. Even the obsession with afterlife wasn't about the eternal destination of your soul, and more about reducing the potential duration of the prison sentence for you and your loved ones so you can move on faster and reincarnate into a better life.

-Also, there isn't a single "canon" of scriptures. Many popular gods don't show up in Daoist literature until much later. Daoist scriptures often came up with their own gigantic pantheons, full of gods no one had heard of prior to said book, or enjoyed no worship in temples whatsoever.

-In the same way famous dead people could become gods via worship, famous fictional characters could, too, become gods of folk religion——FSYY's pantheon was very influential on popular worship, but that doesn't mean you should take the novels as actual scriptures.

-Like, God-Demon novels are to orthodox Daoism/Buddhism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian doctrines, except no priests had actually built a Church of Saint Beatrice, while Daoists did put FSYY characters into their temples. By their very nature, the worship that stemmed from these books is not on the same level of "seriousness" as, say, the Tiantai school of Buddhism and their veneration of the Lotus Sutra.

-At the risk of being guilty of the same insertion of Abrahamic religion where it doesn't belong: You don't cite Dante's Inferno in a theological debate, nor would any self-respecting pastor preach it to churchgoers on a Sunday.

-Similarly, you don't use JTTW or FSYY as your sole evidence for why something is "disrespectful to Chinese religion/tradition" when many practitioners of said religions won't treat them as anything more than fantasy novels.

-In fact, let's use Tripitaka as an example. The historical Xuanzang was an extraordinarily talented, faithful, and determined monk. In JTTW, he was a caricature of a Confucian scholar in a Buddhist kasaya and served the same narrative function as Princess Peach in a Mario game.

-Does the presence of satire alone make JTTW anti-Buddhist, or its religious allegories less poignant? I'd say no. Should you take it as seriously as actual Buddhist sutras, when the book didn't even take itself 100% seriously? Also no.

-To expand further on the idea of "seriousness": even outside of vernacular novels, practitioners are not beholden to a universal set of strict religious laws and taboos.

-Both Daoism and Buddhism had what we called "cloistered" and "non-cloistered" adherents; only the former needed to follow their religious laws and (usually) took a vow of celibacy.

-Certain paths of Daoist cultivation allow for alcohol and sexual activities (thanks @ruibaozha for the info), and some immortals, like Lv Dongbin, had a well-established "playboy" reputation in folklore.

-Though it was rarer for Buddhism and very misunderstood, esoteric variants of it did utilize sexual imageries and sex. And, again, most of the above would not apply if you weren't among the cloistered and ordained clergy.

-Furthermore, not even the worship of gods is mandatory! You could just be a Daoist who was really into internal alchemy, cultivating your body and mind in order to prolong your lifespan and, ideally, attain immortality.

-This idea of "respect" as…for a lack of better words, No Fun & R18 Stuff Allowed, you must treat all divinity with fearful reverence and put yourself completely at their mercy, is NOT the norm in Chinese religious traditions.

-There are different degrees and types of respect, and not every god is supposed to be treated like the Supreme Heavenly Emperor himself during an imperial ceremony; the gods are capable of cracking a joke, and so are we!

TL;DR: Religions are complicated, and you aren't respecting Chinese religions by acting like a stereotypical Puritan over popular Chinese deities and their fictional portrayals.

#chinese religion #chinese mythology #chinese folklore #fandom discourse #journey to the west #xiyouji #investiture of the gods #fengshen yanyi

[captain-hen]

i need to be salty for a second because it's insane how eddie has been trying to move on from shannon and find happiness again but it's incredibly difficult because: a) healing isn't linear and b) she occupied a significant position in his life and he lost her in an incredibly traumatic way. and s6 had an entire thing about how lonely he feels and hinted at his continued struggles of being a single father, he wants a partner and he wants things to change, he just doesn't know how to get there and YET!! and yet the majority of this fandom is like "yeah if he doesn't get with buck, he should stay single for the rest of his life" because eddie's character motivations and relationships outside buck don't matter at all, because why would they 🤷🏼 why should he get an ending that's satisfying and makes sense with what he's wanted up to now 🤷🏼

#sometimes you guys genuinely make me hope buddie doesn't happen out of pure spite lol #neethu speaks #fandom discourse

[very-straight-blog]

I want to join the fandom discourse a little bit, @st-eve-barnes inspired me huh. Sooo... In my blog, I try to avoid drama as much as possible - I quite rarely talk about the blacks in general, never discuss TB blogs and don't argue with their authors. The description of my blog clearly states what it's dedicated to and I put the right tags under the posts. My main goal is to create a cozy and safe space for people who read me, who love the same characters as me and agree with my opinion. However, even this doesn't save my blog - I regularly receive hate asks, TB fans who want to argue come in comments, my posts are often discussed in TB blogs, usually with insults. I really don't understand what these people's problem is - obviously they take this fandom VERY seriously. They don't understand the difference between characters and real people, and that scares me. If you're ready to bully a real person because of their taste for those who don't even exist, it's scary. Touch the grass.

#house of the dragon #hotd #team green #pro team green #anti team black #fandom discourse

[queerlyvictorian]

I reblogged about this on another person's post, but it's too important to me to not have my own post about it.

I'm hearing that some people might be coming for Crystal Palace of Dead Boy Detectives for "getting in the way" of Charles x Edwin, i.e. Payneland.

Let's be clear. I adore angsty friends to lovers as much the next hopelessly romantic queer (sort of) guy. But what we're not going to do is become yet another fandom that denigrates a female character because we see her as an obstacle to a mlm ship. It honestly kind of triggers me, and it can never not feel at least a little biphobic to me. I am sure that is not the intention of the vast majority of people with this take, but that's just what my past experience in the numerous fandoms that have done this makes me jump to first.

I want us to think about this. If Charles is currently or eventually in love with Edwin back, he will be confired bisexual, or some other non-monosexual identity, or just fucking queer and vibing. And that means his attraction and feelings for Crystal, and their ship, should be respected as a part of his story and the story of the show. Let a girl live. Don't erase Charles's attraction to women, and leave space for non-monosexual identities. Let's all be mature queers about this, and breaking the fucking cycle.

We're not about to tear a bestie down just so our male leads can kiss. We're better than that. I hope we can be better than that.

#slight apology for the rant #i had feelings i apparently had to GET OUT #dead boy detectives #dead boy detectives spoilers #crystal palace #charles rowland #edwin payne #bisexual #pansexual #biphobia #bisexual erasure #fandom discourse #shipping wars #queerlyvictorian posts

[alexa-nowak]

One of my old texts from YouTube arguments about Astarion endings

I am not that invested in this discourse nowadays because I lost hope to change anyone's opinion and also, I am simply tired from dealing with toxic bs that I am getting as a response to some of my old comments on YT to this day. My favourites are those who will reply to my every comment to say how delulu I am and I probably just dreaming about being in a toxic relationships myself, while being unable to understand that people have their own ways to heal through art and that throwing poison on people like that is not helpful at all.

I will leave it there and funny enough, I am not even so much of AA fan, I just don't like people being ignorant and rude.

And I like writing essays, so here it is.

So, what this dark romance fantasy is about for me personally,(even though i prefer spawn romance, i absolutely understand the appeal of asc Astarion because honestly, i was all about this kind of romance during my childhood and teenage years, hardocore the Phantom of the Opera girl is here, inside your head 💀), and why it's also healing route for some players,and no, it's not about kinky vampiric banging.

1)A lot of people feel extremely worthless and insecure, lonely, like no one really cares for them at all. It's a very deep wound that hurts and it's difficult to overcome even in perfectly loving, healthy and supportive relationship with a good partner,and even with therapy. So fantasy about a vampire, being obsessed with you so much that he is ready to do absolutely anything just to be with you for forever is really comforting. Also,you don't have to think too much about your imperfections, because for him you like a center of his vampire heart.

Besides, you sympathise with him - it's like a selfcomfort mirror, i love this monster despite everything, so in a way, i accept myself despite any flaws i see in me.

2) Safety. When the world around you feel like a wilderness, full of monsters, it feels like only the most terrifying loving monster can protect you from it. He is powerful and protective, and i am so precious to him, that he will set the world on fire just so i would be safe.

3) Responsibility. As you may see, this kind of relationship have daddy issues vibes and codependency, and in real life, you can't just fully submit safely to anyone, I don't think i have to explain why it's a dangerous idea to seek this kind of relationships in real life. You have to stay a grown up independent person and seek safety for yourself without expecting someone to come and heal all your wounds. But this is fantasy, so finally you can use this as a comfort fantasy with no fear about being taking advantage of, without shame to be called childish and etc.

4) Independence. Spawn ending is very terrifying for anyone who has issues with feeling safe and independent, because some of us prefer violent power fantasies over "we have each other and that's all that matters", second of all, this ending also has some shady co-dependency undertone to it that can be triggering for some people. I love Spawn Astarion a little bit more more than Asc and yet my heart stayed absolutely broken after running away from the sun scene, and i hate that he is so dependent on Tav. Larian owes me some emotional refund after this.

5)SA trauma: it wasn't even seen as a possibility for healing way by writer, but it is for some.Asc Astarion feels like he is the most powerful creature in the world,and he is fully controlling everything that happens between him and Tav,so finally, it's a kind of situation where there is no chance of him being abused again. It's one of the reasons why some people become Doms in BDSM dynamic relationships: finally, full control of the process and a partner, who trusts then enough to fully submit, trust issues is also big deal in Astarion story of healing. I find idea that that only Subs can enjoy Asc Astarion a little bit naive. Because,well, some news for you: Doms like it too because they understand why he is so eager to be a top :D

Unrealistic, not the healthiest way? Probably! But this man and this love is not real anyway.

Yes, i think many of us, especially folks who went through therapy and a lot of self reflecting are already aware that it's basically romanticized version of narcissistic obsession and in real life this is creepy, but it's not real, it's a fantasy. People use BDSM to heal, romance books and all other forms of art to deal with their inner demons and it's absolutely normal. Even if someone is blind to see what is wrong with Asc Astarion, I highly doubt that toxic bucket of shame and aggression are able to help see anyone problematic side of things. Do you know who is usually up to romanticize toxic dynamic in romance? Victims of abuse. In real life, if you just scream and yell at any poor girl/boy/whatever about how stupid they are for believing that their abusive partner really loves them, people will either break down and cry or tell you to f#ck off and they will have every right to do so, but they won't see what's wrong with their partner,in whom quite often victims of abuse see their only source of love and safety in life.

Hells, I am so sick and tired from this "white cloak knight saviour from cycle of abuse" toxic flood in this fandom. If you really want to educate people - do it with extreme care and compassion. Real life healing is not working like it's with Astarion in the game,few right dialogs and boom, dude is on the right path.

It takes enormous amount of patience and love, be kind to one another, and stay safe, darlings. Being toxic on Asc fans you are not helping anyone, you just hitting your superiority complex button in your ass.

#astarion #ascended astarion #astarion bg3 #bg3 astarion #bg3 discourse #also I passionately hate modern fandom culture and politics around liking the bad guy #and surface level twitter psychology that is so popular right now #Spotify #fandom discourse

[randomprosho]

SECOND HAND GROOMING

WORDS HAVE NO MEANING ANYMORE, I CANT DO THIS !!!

#discourse #fandom discourse #proship #neutral ship #I'm losing my mind here

[phantasm-masquerade]

reblog for a bigger sample size if you feel like it

#hibiki//discourse #fandom culture #canon vs fanon #fanonization #polls #i love polls #fandom discourse #fandom bs

[webshood]

not gonna elaborate it rn, but people diminishing Jason's experience with homelessness, malnourishment, childhood abuse and neglect, because he got adopted by a billionaire while also hcning Tim Drake to be abused and starved by his wealthy parents is rooted in racism and classism

#jason todd #dc comics #red hood #batfam #tim drake #don't even get me started on the latino jason/asian tim agenda #fandom discourse

[braxiatel]

I think the best solution to the “Grian fans making everything about Grian” complaint isn’t to shame the Grian fans but rather that the rest of us who have other faves should simply become more abnormal about them

#/lh /I know it’s complex #hermitcraft #secret life #hermitblr #trafficblr #fandom discourse #not badly but just in case #the void collection

[captain-hen]

anyway, i just think it's Interesting how out of the both of them, buck is the one who canonically jumps into relationships and relies on them to define his self-worth and cannon stand to live with himself, but sure, eddie is the one who needs to "learn to be alone". sure. that makes perfect sense!

#neethu speaks #fandom discourse

[kimkhimhant]

to reiterate: an autistic fan headcanoning a character they like and relate to as being autistic is not armchair diagnosing anyone and is not harming anyone. it is not an insult for a character to be headcanoned as autistic, it is not the fan claiming their experience as being the only autistic experience, it is not claiming that there cannot be other interpretations.

an autistic person seeing a character's traits as similar to their own and finding comfort in that is not an insult to that character or to other fans.

an autistic fan headcanoning their favorite character as autistic is not a personal attack against you and your experiences and preferences

it feels incredibly ableist and dismissive to tell autistic fans that headcanoning a character as autistic is Problematic. Autism is not an insult.

#people having character headcanons that are different from yours is not an attack against you or your headcanons #benji talks #kinnporsche #kpts #kim theerapanyakul #fandom discourse #i'm sorry for continuing to post about this but it is seriously harmful #kimchay

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

personally, I think people are allowed to ship a “toxic ship” as long as it’s fictional and they can separate fiction from reality. shipping a fictional “problematic ship” doesn’t mean you’re “abuse apologist” in real life. the same way people who enjoy fictional villains are not “murderers” in real life.

it’s okay if you think this ship makes you uncomfortable and so you personally dislike it. what you can and should do is avoid their contents and refrain from interacting with people who do ship them. that mute and block buttons are your friends.

what you shouldn’t do, though, is harass people who ship them and brag about how they’re “red flags irl” and how you’re “morally superior” simply because of fictional characters.

I promise you, minding your own business and not caring about what ship strangers on the internet ship will make your fandom so much less toxic and a whole lot more enjoyable.

#fandom #fandoms #fandom police #blorbo #ship war #shipping discourse #fandom discourse #comfort character #hannigram #harringrove #sylki #hannibal #mileven #hannibal x will #ship and let ship #ao3 #archive of our own #loki #angst #whump #tropes #trope

[xx-slug-xx]

Ao3 authors, please learn to not insult people and be “morally superior” in the tags

Instead of tagging “noncon is gross” or “not noncon because that’s problematic”, for example, just put “enthusiastic consent” or “consensual sex” in the tags. It makes things a whole lot easier for people to filter and know what’s going on.

I really don’t care that you think noncon fics are bad or whatever, I (and many others) will be more likely to read your fic about two boys who are deeply in love if you aren’t an ass about your morals in fiction :/

#ao3 #proship #profic #anti anti #profiction #comship #proshipping #proshipper #anti censorship #fandom discourse #anti harassment

[imakatperson22]

Them: Wait, so, you think Tommy’s closet joke was actually hysterical and made you love his character even more instead of hating him?

Me:

#911 on abc #911 season 7 #911 spoilers #eddie diaz #evan buckley #911 abc #911 #911 show #911 fox #911 s7 #911 7x05 #buck x tommy #bucktommy #evan buck buckely #bi buck #tommy kinard #firefly #anti tommy kinard #I will not stand for Tommy hate #fandom discourse #test me #it was a great joke #it definitely wasn’t enough to out him #please get a grip #some of your anti Tommy posts read like satire #it’s really silly

[theggning]

Wtf is this "sibling-coded" nonsense I keep seeing? Y'all know that if a man and a woman are close but you don't personally ship it, they can just be friends, right? Even really really good friends? They can love each other? But also be not romantically linked, and also not be "sibling-coded?"

Like there's a whole spectrum in between "fucking" and "siblings." Friends? Partners? Has the word "platonic" lost all meaning?

I mean I personally don't think it's very platonic to get four inches away from each others' lips and touch intimately and make BDSM jokes, but that's also EXTREMELY NOT "sibling-coded."

#i am not going to tag a fandom here because i've seen it in several of mine but #y'all what the hell is going on here #are you okay?? is everything okay?? #does anyone who says this actually have siblings?? #fandom discourse