#xiyouji

[ryin-silverfish]

One nerd's musing about Chinese religion and "respect"

-I try to stay away from fandom discourse, but, much like how you can smell the stench from a dumpster fire without walking into said dumpster fire, I've noticed something that seemed to come up a lot in western JTTW + adjacent fandoms: "respect Chinese religion".

-Usually as a reason for why you shouldn't ship a character, because of fucking course it's shipping discourse too.

-And my first reaction is "Man, you are taking Chinese religion too darn seriously, more than people who are born and raised in China."

-My second reaction is "I mean, most of us are atheist/agnostic by default anyways, with a good number of what I'd call 'atheist/agnostics with superstitions': people who said they were not religious, yet believed in Fengshui or divinations and burnt incense at temples for good luck."

-My third reaction: "But why do I get the feeling that when you mention 'Respect', you are thinking about something completely different?"

-Then I reread an essay from Anthony C. Yu, "Religion and Literature in China: The "Obscure Way" of Journey to the West", and the metaphorical lightbulb just lit up over my head.

(Everything below applies more to Daoism + associated folk religions, but by the time when most classic Chinese vernacular novels were written, the blending of the three religions had become well and truly mainstream.)

(The conception of gods differs from dynasty to dynasty. What I'm describing here is mostly based on Ming and Qing ones; if you went back to Han or pre-Qin times, most of these would not apply.)

(I am one of the "atheist/agnostic by default" people. I just have an interest in this kind of stuff. I am also just one Chinese person, and an actual Daoist/Buddhist/Religion Studies researcher would probably have a lot more valuable information and perspective to offer when it comes to contemporary practices and worship. Like any people on the internet: take my words with a grain of salt.)

-Even in the past, when society was far less secularized, Chinese gods are not omniscient, perfect beings whose worship is a solemn, humorless affair. Some's worship are Serious Business, but that has more to do with the sort of gods they are and the patronage they enjoy, not godhood in and of itself.

-And even the ones that you are supposed to "treat seriously" are still very human. To use an analogy I've used plenty of times before: you respect and fear them in the same way you'd respect and fear an emperor's official, or the emperor himself, because if you don't, you are not gonna like the consequences.

-However, unlike Jesus, the emperor & his officials were capable of being temperamental, flawed, or an outright asshole, divine or not. Ideally, they wouldn't be, and if you were one of the "serious" believers——people who actually got an official permit, became ordained clergy, and went to live in a temple, you were unlikely to think of your gods in that manner.

-But it wasn't a complete, utter impossibility. The lower you go in the pantheon, the closer you get to popular religion, the less "serious" the gods and their worship become. By that, I mean general attitude, not sincerity of faith. You still shouldn't be rude to them, but, well, they are more likely to take a joke in stride, or participate in the "vulgar" pleasures of commoners because they weren't as bound to Confucian moral standards or religious disciplines.

-To stretch the same analogy further: you should still respect your village head, they could still give your ass a good spanking for being a disrespectful brat, but you were not obligated to get on your knees and kowtow to them like you would do in front of a provincial magistrate, the emperor's minister, or the emperor himself, nor did they have the power to chop your head off just because you were rude.

-On the other hand, the emperor would never visit a random peasant just to help them fix their broken plow or treat them to a nice meal, but your village head could, and your relationship would probably be warmer and a lot more personal as a result.

-Your respect for them was more likely to stem from the things they actually did for you and the village as a whole, instead of something owed to this distant, powerful authority you might never get to see in your lifetime, but could change its course with a single stroke of a brush.

-Now exchange "village head" for your run-of-the-mill Tudis and Chenghuangs and friendly neighborhood spirits (because yes, people worshipped yaoguais for the exact same reasons), emperor + his officials for the Celestial Bureaucracy, and you'd have a basic idea of how Chinese religions worked on the ground level.

-This is far from absolute: maybe your village head was a spiteful old bastard who loved bullying his juniors, maybe your regional magistrate was an honest, upright man who could enjoy a good drink and a good laugh, maybe the emperor was a lenient one and wouldn't chop your head off for petty offenses. But their general degree of power over you and the closeness of your relationships still apply.

-Complicating the matter further, some folk gods (like Wutong) were worshipped not because they brought blessings, but because they were the divine equivalent of gangsters running a protection racket: you basically bribed them with offerings so they'd leave you alone and not wreck your shit. Famous people who died violently and were posthumously deified often fell into this category——shockingly enough, Guan Yu used to be one such god!

-Yeah, kinda like how your average guy could become an official through the imperial examinations, so could humans become gods through posthumous worship, or cultivate themselves into immortals and Enlightened beings.

-Some immortals aren't qualified for, or interested in a position in the Celestial Bureaucracy——they are the equivalent of your hermits, your cloistered Daoist priests, your common literati who kept trying and failing the exams. But some do get a job offer and gladly take it.

-Anyways, back to my original point: that's why it's so absurd when people pull the "Respect Chinese Religion1!!1!" card and immediately follow up with "Would you do X to Jesus?"

-Um, there are a lot of things you can do with Chinese gods that I'm pretty sure you can't do with Jesus. Like worshipping him side by side with Buddha and Confucius (Lao Tzu). Or inviting him to possess you and drink copious amount of alcohol (Tang-ki mediums in SEA). Or genderbend him into a woman over the course of several centuries because folks just like that version of Jesus better (Guan Yin/Avalokitesvara).

-But most importantly, Chinese religions are kinda a "free market" where you could pick and choose between gods, based on their vicinity to you and how efficient they were at answering prayers. You respect them because they'll help you out, you aren't an asshole and know your manners, and pissing them off is a bad idea in general, not because they are some omnipotent, perfect beings who demand exclusive and total reverence.

-A lot of the worship was also, well, very "practical" and almost transactional in nature: leave offerings to Great Immortal Hu, and he doesn't steal your imperial seal while you aren't looking. Perform the rites right and meditate on a Thunder General's visage, and you can temporarily channel said deity's power. Get this talisman for your kids at Bixia Yuanjun's temple, and they'll be protected from smallpox.

-"Faith alone" or "Scripture alone" is seldom the reason people worship popular deities. Even the obsession with afterlife wasn't about the eternal destination of your soul, and more about reducing the potential duration of the prison sentence for you and your loved ones so you can move on faster and reincarnate into a better life.

-Also, there isn't a single "canon" of scriptures. Many popular gods don't show up in Daoist literature until much later. Daoist scriptures often came up with their own gigantic pantheons, full of gods no one had heard of prior to said book, or enjoyed no worship in temples whatsoever.

-In the same way famous dead people could become gods via worship, famous fictional characters could, too, become gods of folk religion——FSYY's pantheon was very influential on popular worship, but that doesn't mean you should take the novels as actual scriptures.

-Like, God-Demon novels are to orthodox Daoism/Buddhism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian doctrines, except no priests had actually built a Church of Saint Beatrice, while Daoists did put FSYY characters into their temples. By their very nature, the worship that stemmed from these books is not on the same level of "seriousness" as, say, the Tiantai school of Buddhism and their veneration of the Lotus Sutra.

-At the risk of being guilty of the same insertion of Abrahamic religion where it doesn't belong: You don't cite Dante's Inferno in a theological debate, nor would any self-respecting pastor preach it to churchgoers on a Sunday.

-Similarly, you don't use JTTW or FSYY as your sole evidence for why something is "disrespectful to Chinese religion/tradition" when many practitioners of said religions won't treat them as anything more than fantasy novels.

-In fact, let's use Tripitaka as an example. The historical Xuanzang was an extraordinarily talented, faithful, and determined monk. In JTTW, he was a caricature of a Confucian scholar in a Buddhist kasaya and served the same narrative function as Princess Peach in a Mario game.

-Does the presence of satire alone make JTTW anti-Buddhist, or its religious allegories less poignant? I'd say no. Should you take it as seriously as actual Buddhist sutras, when the book didn't even take itself 100% seriously? Also no.

-To expand further on the idea of "seriousness": even outside of vernacular novels, practitioners are not beholden to a universal set of strict religious laws and taboos.

-Both Daoism and Buddhism had what we called "cloistered" and "non-cloistered" adherents; only the former needed to follow their religious laws and (usually) took a vow of celibacy.

-Certain paths of Daoist cultivation allow for alcohol and sexual activities (thanks @ruibaozha for the info), and some immortals, like Lv Dongbin, had a well-established "playboy" reputation in folklore.

-Though it was rarer for Buddhism and very misunderstood, esoteric variants of it did utilize sexual imageries and sex. And, again, most of the above would not apply if you weren't among the cloistered and ordained clergy.

-Furthermore, not even the worship of gods is mandatory! You could just be a Daoist who was really into internal alchemy, cultivating your body and mind in order to prolong your lifespan and, ideally, attain immortality.

-This idea of "respect" as…for a lack of better words, No Fun & R18 Stuff Allowed, you must treat all divinity with fearful reverence and put yourself completely at their mercy, is NOT the norm in Chinese religious traditions.

-There are different degrees and types of respect, and not every god is supposed to be treated like the Supreme Heavenly Emperor himself during an imperial ceremony; the gods are capable of cracking a joke, and so are we!

TL;DR: Religions are complicated, and you aren't respecting Chinese religions by acting like a stereotypical Puritan over popular Chinese deities and their fictional portrayals.

#chinese religion #chinese mythology #chinese folklore #fandom discourse #journey to the west #xiyouji #investiture of the gods #fengshen yanyi

[crzyimp]

AITA for not wanting to divorce my wife when my in-laws are racist and fat phobic about it?

I’m(M) recently married to my(F) wife. For some context, I’ve known this family for roughly 3 years and worked for them; I never complained about the hard labor or long hours, hell I did the work of 3 men or more without breaking a sweat! I’m very self conscious about my looks and weight, so I glamorize myself and sometimes use a wrap to make myself thin. It hurts sometimes, but it’s better than being stared at or comments thrown at me. Now my in-laws, let's call them Mr. and Mrs. G, are big on tradition about passing the family business to a son, but they only have daughters and the oldest two are already married, and they can’t find a guy who will give up his surname for theirs (I can’t blame them, I haven’t met a guy who’s willing to do that). Anyways during those three years I’ve gotten to know Mr. and Mrs. G’s youngest daughter and currently my wife, Cui.

Sweetest, nicest girl I ever met and we hit it off without a hitch, she’s everything I wished for in a wife. She knows the ins and out of how to run her family business, but Mr. G refuses to just let her take over unless she’s married to a man who can take their surname…well after she told me that I said I can be her husband since I’m technically an orphan and I don’t have any attachments to the surname given to me. Originally it was going to be more of a business relationship or front until she can find someone she can love, especially how I actually look, and I told her that. Cui thought that was sweet of me. So we talked to her parents together and they gave their blessing once they learned I’m an orphan.

Wedding planning, preparations, and the actual wedding was nice but very stressful; I didn’t have much time to myself and decompress as my in-laws wanted my attention 24/7. I can feel my glamor smearing off and the wraps digging into my skin to the point it’s cutting into my skin. Though during the wedding I can’t just walk away for a moment to be alone and I don’t want to disappoint Cui, so I bear through the ceremony and during the reception I drink to get my mind off the pain and my insecurities. Now I may be an asshole here since I drank way too much and I haven’t had a drink in 3ish years, so I get more drunk than I wanted and got way too relaxed…where I took off the wraps under my clothes and my glam is off.

All hell broke loose, as if a hungry ghost or one of the kings was there! People were screaming about a fatass pig demon crashing the party and I was ready to throw this asshole out until Cui, my sweet wife, told me that they were talking about me. Still drunk and now shocked, I bawled my eyes out and ran out of the room, accidentally knocking stuff and people over on the way out. Cui followed after me to make sure I’m okay.

Ever since that, her parents bully and pick on me about my appearance and my weight, telling me I’m a fatso that doesn’t have the right to be part of their family, saying I stink up the place (I’m still working hard to support the business and during the hot summers I can’t help but sweat), to how much I eat (again it’s hard work and I do eat to cope from the abuse), to how they never see Cui anymore (she locked up in our house and I have the key so her parents can’t have surprise visits and abuse me more), to how I should go back to where I came from (and other racist remarks, but I don’t want to be flagged by the mods). They even hired thugs to get me to divorce Cui! Thugs who try to chase me out of my own home and wife! Thankfully I had years of experience in combat, and so far none bested me. Though their words are starting to get to me and that’s why I’m here asking you guys. Am I the asshole?

#zhu bajie #journey to the west #jttw #xiyouji #Gao Family #Fake AITA #Wukong would definitely have multiple accounts(almost all of them banned and one hacked)

[digitalagepulao]

monkey love language

i absolutely adore just how aggressively physical monkeys can be with affection. they just fully press their heads into each other, lots of tugging and pulling, almost throwing themselves at each other when they want attention. i bet it takes Wukong some adjustment so he doesn't use his full force when he gets grabbed by the need to just squeeze someone lmao, but just as much as the others need time to get used to a monkey perched on them every now and then. plus grooming is often a bargaining chip and a way to build relationships and a show of affection and trust. so, a bit of monkey love for each of the group! :D

aaaand Zhu Bajie and Sha Wujing face reveal!! working on a fullbody lineup to show off their heights as well, so consider this a teaser ;3

Bajie is half wild boar, half babirusa. I love the four-tusk situation babirusa have going on, but his bristled mane is too iconic to handwave away. plus, pigs that go feral grow tusks and thicker fur, so i wanted to capture some of that with the half-and-half design.

as for Wujing, he's a complicated one to explain, but for his face i really wanted his beard to stand out as well as the six skulls necklace. i'm going for a "intermittent waters" concept with him, since he's originally connected to a desert before being made into a river demon, so i'm drawing on mudskippers for his ear fins and face spots.

#jttw #journey to the west #xiyouji #jttw au #expedition to the west au #bell dragon art #jttw fanart #sun wukong #monkey king #sha wujing #zhu bajie #zhu wuneng #tang sanzang #tripitaka #bai longma

[sketching-shark]

Sun Wukong?!?!?

#buddhism #meditation #thailand #monkey #xiyouji #journey to the west #jttw #sun wukong #monkey king

[theghostshost]

Betting Piece

#lego monkie kid #lmk #digital art #lego monkie kid fanart #digital drawing #digital illustration #lmk mk #lego #lego mk #lego monkie king #mk lego monkie kid #lego monkey kid fanart #digital artist #artwork #art #artists on tumblr #lmk art #my art #illustration #drawings #lmk fanart #lmk qi xiaotian #mk lmk #monkie kid fanart #lmk nuwa #lmk underworld king #jttw #journey to the west #xiyouji

[majachee]

!!!

#majart #art #oc tag #oc ref #sun wukong #wukong oc #journey to the west #jttw #xiyouji #original character

[offishwhite]

Late to the party but here's sun wukong showing off his new fit to the huaguoshan monkeys in chapter 3 @journeythroughjourneytothewest

This swk design is based more so on a combination of the 1999 animated series and 1961 havoc in heaven movie rather than the book description just because I love those adaptations a lot :)

#journey to the west #jttw #journeythroughjourneytothewest #sun wukong #xiyouji #my art

[jttw-monkeybusiness]

A nice portrait of my design of Six Eared Macaque is done! He's just observing some people in town. Totally nothing creepy about it. It's fine. 🙃

#jttw six eared macaque #six eared macaque #journey to the west #journey to the west au #my art #jttw tag #xiyouji

[relmint-draws]

Good evening Erlang Shen enjoyers

#erlang shen #yang jian #lotus lantern #jttw #rel'sart #doodles #chinese mythology #jttw erlang shen #xiyouji #Baolian Deng #explodes him explodes him with my mind #myart

[sunny-days-and-warm-mournings]

齊天大聖

#jttw #journey to the west #xiyouji #sun wukong #art #jttw fanart #journey to the west fanart #monkey king #monkey king fanart #monkey king hero is back #monkey king: hero is back(2015) #sun wukong fanart #it's beem a really rough week so I haven't been able to do anything at all #but y'all can have this #it was meant to be fully rendered but I couldn't find the motivation to do it #jttw au #journey to the west au #齊天大聖 #孫悟空

[loverofstufflof]

What do you do when an episode hits?

Make a lil guy!

Here’s my personal idea of Sun Wukong! The design is almost 100% subject to change as I dig up for details on his description and mess around with colours, but for now, monke.

Small thingies:

- His appearance is a loose mix between a rhesus macaque (which he is highly theorized to appear as) and a baby langur (because blorboification)

- I’m taking “Intelligent Stone Monkey” seriously here; he is a stoney boy

- He’s specifically a geode, meaning that being broken reveals rubies and gold underneath! (“What about those scenes that vividly describe his blood and organs?” Uhhh illusion magic/72 transformations next question)

- He is still a short kingtm

- The cloud-walking boots are fluffy because I say so

As said before, this is my personal interpretation of his appearance within the novel. If you have a different idea, that’s neat! I’d love to compare murderous fellas. Unless I’m genuinely portraying him harmfully, let’s all just have a good ole time :]

#journey to the west #jttw #jttw sun wukong #xiyouji #monkey king #sun wukong #great sage equal to heaven #character design #lego monkie kid #monkie kid #lmk #tagging lmk cause I think the lego fans will also appreciate this #art! #post!

[journeythroughjourneytothewest]

Oh, the agony of a monk living in a murderous world trying to explain to a murder monkey who got a lot of what he wanted through murder why he shouldn't murder :(

#journey to the west #xiyouji #jttw #jttw reading group #jttw book club #monkey king #sun wukong #tang sanzang #tripitaka #between swk's great capacity & willingness to violence #and tang sanzang's possession of the tight-fillet spell #who do you think gave who the biggest headache

[digitalagepulao]

The Missing Bai Longma Incident

seems like someone forgot to warn their hosts that Tripitaka's horse is also one of his disciples and can't quite have classes in the stables (it was Wukong). luckily that's a quick fix, unlike a kidnapping of some sort.

aaaand Tripitaka and Ao Lie reveal uwu

i like to picture dragons having just So Much Hair in human form because it's their mane all condensed on the top of their head. it feels fitting that Lie would also wear some sort of curlicle headband himself, and the fancy topknot is still there since he IS a prince. the long nails/talons is also a nobility signifier, so it works out.

as for Tripitaka, he gets earrings to weigh down his earlobes and well, he's the son of a nobleman. i gave him a different backstory (but only slightly) so instead of missing a pinkie toe, he has a scar on his head. I'll go into deets later on when i have a proper ref for his outfits since he got a couple in this au uwu

#jttw #journey to the west #xiyouji #jttw au #jttw fanart #expedition to the west au #sun wukong #tang sanzang #tripitaka #ao lie #bai longma #bell dragon art

[the-monkey-ruler]

what are some upcoming xiyouji media that you’re excited for?

Here are a few!

2020 Journey to the West: Conquer the Demons 西游降魔篇 - I think this is like a re-write of the whole Chow Xiyouji films into a tv series!

2020 I'm Not a Great Sage 我不是大圣 - the Six-Earred Macaque being seen as a hero when he is trying so hard to be a villain. (Correction there are two movies with the same name and I got the poster for the wrong one whoops)

2021 Seven Sages 七圣 - a movie all about Wukong's brotherhood like with Snub-Nose Monkey King or Flood Dragon King!

2021 Sun Wukong: Heaven Devourer Monkey孙悟空之噬天魔猴 Trailer - the animation for this looks AMAZING AND I CANT WAIT!!!

2022 King of Confusion: The Rise of the Great Sage / Four Monkeys in Confusion 混世之王：混世四猴 /混世之王之大圣崛起 - Super excited to see Wukong and ALL THE SPIRITUAL MONKEYS!!! FINALLY THE WHOLE GANG IS HERE

2022 Bajie: Movie Preview 八戒：電影搶先看 - I am a huge Bajie fan and this just looks ADORABLE!

2022 The Lower Boundary of the Canopy of Bajie八戒之天蓬下界 - Another Bajie love story and honestly this one looks precious, he really trying to just get his weapon back but oh no he is being WOOED!

2022 Red Boy: Newborn Calf红孩儿之初生牛犊 - super fun animation! Really want to see the back story in this one!

2022 Monkey King and JJ大圣和江流儿 - I NEED THIS I NEED THIS LIKE WATER I NEED HERO IS BACK WUKONG TO BE A FATHER PLEASE

2023 The Legends of Monkey King 凌云志 - This was based on like a web novel and it sound more insane that it should be. can't say it is "good" but it def sounds interesting at LEAST.

2025Monkey King: The Havoc in Heaven西游记之大圣闹天宫 - I have heard that THIS is going to be a prequel to the 2015 Hero is Back Movie SO !!!!!!!!!!!! WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE HERO IS BACK WUKONG HE IS LIKE MY SECOND FAVORITE!!!

2030Monkey King: Flame Mountain孙悟空之火焰山 - the animation here just looks so interesting and Wukong looks so uncaney valley I'm really interested about this one.

NullThe Monkey Prince - this one is kinda a cheat but it is a WUKONG-inspired character and honestly, this looks like a lot of fun!!

NullJourney to the West - I can only PRAY that the art style of the poster for this movie is the same as the animation. I have NEVER seen a Xiyouji movie done by the French but if they make it this whimsical and colorful attitude I'm HERE FOR IT.

Needless to say, I'm excited about a lot of things.

#anon ask #anonymous #anon #jttw #journey to the west #xiyouji #ask #zhu bajie #sun wukong

[theghostshost]

Heavens Bounty Sun Wukong! Old Man Sun is Tasked to keep a relative eye out for a certain group of traveling Demons and Humans, and if need be, he'll have to end their grand quest of completing The impossible Bounty sent by Heaven.

#digital art #digital illustration #digital drawing #jttw #jttw sun wukong #jttw au #jttw monkey king #xiyouji #journey to the west #heavens bounty #monkeyking #monkey king #great sage equal to heaven

[wolfsonic]

I finally have time to post this! So, a bit ago I got a commission done by the amazing @rebeltigera and of course, it's my girl Chao-Xing! I LOVE HER SO MUCH!!! YOU DREW HER PHENOMENALLY!!

#chao xing #digital art #journey to the west #lego monkie kid #lmk #jttw #xiyouji #lego monkie kid next gen #lego monkie kid oc