#and it applies to Myrcella as well? | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

gwenllian-in-the-abbey · 1 day

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https://www.tumblr.com/myimaginationplain/719391604220248064/brideoffires-qayaamat-brideoffires-its-hard?source=share

What is your opinion on this post?

OP, the problem with the argument that Targaryens or Valyrians were corrupted by Andal culture is that the Targaryens were conquerors. Putting aside how asinine it is to claim that the conquered culture corrupted the conquerors, even if the conquerors had to adopt some aspects of the culture they conquered in order to be accepted as the ruling class, that is entirely on the conquerors. No one forced Aegon I to conquer Westeros, that was on him. They could very well have stayed on Dragonstone doing their thing-- no one was really bothering them up to that point. Even supposing that Valyrian culture was this utopia of gender equality (which, let's be clear, it certainly wasn't), if that was an aspect of their culture that they deeply valued, then perhaps the Targaryens should have thought twice before doing the whole violent conquest thing.

As for the arguments from the main series, they seem to miss the forest for the trees. The takeaway should be that people will twist historical events to suit their own narratives, and that works in both directions. The Rhoynish came to Westeros to flee the Valyrian empire and at the time of the Dance Dorne wanted nothing to do with either Rhaenyra or Aegon, and the Westerosi certainly wanted absolutely nothing to do with Dornish customs. Arianne arguing from a Dornish point of view nearly two centuries later that Rhaenyra should have been queen is unsurprising, but that logic can't be applied to anyone alive at the time of the Dance. Rhaenyra claiming to follow Dornish custom in 129 AC would have been political suicide. It's also unsurprising that Stannis considers her a usurper. To him, what she attempted to do would be akin to what Renly attempted to do to him. Remember, the Targaryens actually excluded women to a greater degree than even the Andals did. Andal custom never held that women cannot rule, only that in the order of succession they come after their brothers. But that's all neither here nor there. Everyone in the main series citing the Dance of Dragons is doing so to fit their own agenda. Let's not forget, Myrcella is not a valid claimant to the throne either, regardless of her gender, and there are reasons why putting her on the throne only creates more problems rather than solves them, which is, ironically, similar to the case of Rhaenyra.

#asks #the narrative that the targs are somehow an oppressed minority in westeros is one of the most irritating takes in this fandom #at the time of the dance they are literally the ruling class enforcing their rule by dragonfire #it's like saying the mongols were oppressed in china during the yuan dynasty because they assimilated into han culture #the andals weren't forcing them to do shit that they didn't want to do already #anti targaryen

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baelorbreakbeds · 1 year

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modern au lannisters:

cersei is trying to take over her dads evil megacorporation ala shiv roy.she would also have a tiktok where she posts weird #boymum tiktoks about sansa and marge and shed give extremely shitty advice on dating or whatever and people would like her because they think shes being ironic and theyd find her funny but uh shes deadly serious.also i think shed be popular with the girl interrupted lana del rey cherry emoji girls.she also runs for president.

tywin is ceo of an evil megacorporation.think waystar royco but he might also have a podcast??idk i think hed fit in ideologically with the manosphere and hed have a devoted fanbase but tywin has never seen a smartphone so.. idk his devoted fanbase composed of losers and incels all campaign for his release when he eventually gets arrested for tax evasion and whatever else hes been doing(money laundering maybe)

tyrion is a redditor.enough said. i also think hed be a scientist or maybe a lawyer hes smart af he could do anything really-in a modern au he can get therapy and deal with his issues and escape the cycle of abuse without patricide(hopefully anyway)

jaime...sorry lannation your man is a cop.or a tennis player-i feel like really talented tennis players are very famous and well known and i think that would be a good modern au equivalent of jaimes talent with swords.i dont think jaime would have much social media though.i just cannot imagine the man on any social media.cersei makes him post thirst traps with her and gets sooo mad when people are more into him then her

joffrey is a nepo baby "working" at his grandads company(he applied to work for his dad first but his emails kept getting lost apparently)he keeps getting moved around from department to department because he just sits around and vapes all day and is terrible for workplace morale and tywin doesnt want his workers to unionize.hes also guest starring on male podcasts every other day.he gives business and finance advice despite having never run or started a business.he also runs a reaction youtube channel where he rails against the woke mob.he can't say anything these days and they just hate him because hes a straight rich white male(nothing to do with his abuse allegations).he also gets into very public spats with his mother.he keeps trying to block her on instagram and tiktok but she keeps making new accounts to stalk him.

myrcella is a beauty/lifestyle influencer whose pretty popular until people start turning on her for claiming that being a nepo baby makes her work harder???or something idk she heard it from tyrion.she also gets alot of criticism online everytime joffrey or cersei do something crazy for clout.

#asoiaf #cersei lannister #jaime lannister #tyrion lannister #house lannister

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waitingforwinterwinds · 1 year

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A Clash of Kings - 41 TYRION IX (pages 531-545)

After seeing off Princess Myrcella, Joffrey once again makes a mildly shitty situation incredibly bad by inciting a riot in King's Landing to devastating consequences.

"I do, my lord. We are to follow the coast, staying always in sight of land until we reach Crackclaw Point. From there we are to strike out across the narrow sea for Braavos. On no account are we to sail within sight of Dragonstone."

Wait, but... Crackclaw is north of Dragonstone? And aren't you taking her to Dorne? why go so far out of your wayyyyy, oh, I get it, it's the misdirect, they'll be expecting you to hug the coastline south, so going north around Dragonstone and over to Braavos will be so unexpected... as long as there's no scouts watching the seas along the coastline between King's Landing and Crackclaw.

He was sending Arys Oakheart as her sword shield, and had engaged the Braavosi to bring her the rest of the way to Sunspear.

Wait, isn't Arys the one who was the least trash to Sansa? *flips back several chapters* yep! so not getting killed or betraying her, just being reassigned to a new post.

Prince Tommen sobbed. "You mew like a suckling babe," his brother hissed at him. "Princes aren't supposed to cry." "Prince Aemon the Dragonknight cried the day Princess Naerys wed his brother Aegon," Sansa Stark said, "and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk died with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound." "Be quiet or I'll have Ser Meryn give you a mortal wound," Joffrey told his betrothed.

A good effort, unfortunately her opponent is a psychopath.

No but, just wanna drag the tv series for a second. In the tv series, Sansa says "I've seen you cry" because D&D thinks it's a smart idea to have her jab Joffrey, total girlboss moment, which is actually an incredibly dangerous thing for Sansa to do, given that she's trapped in an abusive relationship with and actual psychopath* who could take any slight, real or perceived as an excuse to have her brutalized.

This version, the book version, Sansa is attempting to defend Tommen as well, but she's not doing it by attacking Joffrey, or giving him overt reasons to become defensive, she's doing it by making comparisons to legendary figures who no one would doubt are manly and heroic. Instead of "you are also guilty of this worst thing ever" it's "here's precedent to prove it's not the worst thing ever."

*Before anyone breaks out the "i'm a high functioning sociopath" quote, (because this is tumblr and we might never be free of that abomination) the primary difference between Psychopathy and Sociopathy is a moral compass, Psychopaths genuinely don't understand what they're doing is wrong, Sociopaths technically do, but rationalise their actions into justified. Both lack empathy, and while Joffrey does display the more anger prone behaviours associated with sociopathy, I really don't think he understands that his behaviour is morally wrong on any level, which is why I am classifying him as a psychopath.

Although given the way this fandom is re: personality or mental health disorders, maybe we should ignore both personality labels and refer to Joffrey's personality type as "Abusive Asshole Extreme"

wait. shit... is this the bread riots chapter?

"I want him!" Joffrey pointed at the roof. "He was up there! Dog, cut through them and bring-"

Well that escalated quickly. Oh but damn this is a mess. Really not surprised the people were so quick to simp for the Tyrells if they brought food with them.

"Traitors," Joffrey was babbling excitedly, "I'll have all their heads, Ill-" The dwarf slapped is flushed face so hard the crown flew from Joffrey's head. Then he shoved him with both hands and knocked him sprawling. "You blind bloody fool."

I wish more people had Tyrion's immunity to Joffrey's Kingliness. Smackabitch prevents drama, but Tyrion alone just can't apply enough of it.

Ser Boros is craven. I feel like we already knew he was gutless, but just to reiterate. "UwU I'm sorry I can't go out, my easily discarded cloak might get me killed" Man needs a good talking to from Edna Mode, thankfully Tyrion's here to tell him how to solve this simple problem!

...omg! someone let Cersei have a braincell? that was so nice of them!

yay! Sandor plays hero and saves Sansa! and her horse!

Oh now the city's on fire. fantastic (sarcasm)

"Our place is beside the king," Ser Meryn said, complacent. Cersei reared up like a viper. "Your place is where my brother says it is.," she spit. "The Hand speaks with the king's own voice, and disobedience is treason." Boros and Meryn exchanged a look. "Should we wear our cloaks, Your Grace?" Ser Boros asked. "Go naked for all I care. It might remind the mob that you're men. They're like to have forgotten after having seen the way you behaved out there in the street." Tyrion let his sister rage.

The enemy of my enemy... is not my friend but i will cheer for her on this occasion. get wrecked Boros and Meryn!

In light of the fates of the High Septon, Ser Preston, Ser Aron Santagar, and Lollys, I feel like I need to say something that's going to disgust a lot of people.

Bullshit. Bull. Fucking. Shit.

These people are starving. They are starving enough to rip a body apart. They are starving and instead of eating corpses or horses, because surely some of the horses were left behind, they had a 50 man gang rape and left the meat rotting on the ground?

Desperately starving and instead of killing and eating the horses of the men they've already killed, or the bodies of the men they've already killed, or chasing after the king who they blame, they prioritized raping a young woman?

fucking bullshit.

If you're starving enough to riot and rip a man apart, commit to the bit and fucking eat him!

sorry, this is a long running issue for me, and a conversation I've had with some folks before about the running theme of "Bandits are all slave trading rapists because rape is the greatest threat a woman can face it's the only stakes a woman can face" becoming way too prevalent in series where a woman needs rescuing by a male lead to show off how awesome he is, there's just, too much overt threat of sexual assault in some genres, like calm your farm, "rapist" is not the inherent state of men, and bandits often come about due to famine and poverty induced by harsh government rule, and cannibalism is right there and also freaking terrifying as a horrible impending fate!

Anyway, moving on.

"I do not trust the men I have now. (...) There are good men and loyal among the new recruits, but also more brutes, sots, cravens, and traitors than you'd care to know. (...) If it comes to battle, they'll not hold, I fear." "I never expected them to," said Tyrion. "Once our walls are breached, we are lost, I've known that from the start."

damn that's bleak.

"- I beg you both, take heart." "Whose?"

ha!

#a clash of kings #a song of ice and fire #tyrion lannister #a chapter a day reading #acok #asoiaf

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jackoshadows · 2 years

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I read the asoiaf books ages ago so forgive me if I’ve forgotten something but I’m a bit confused about how fandom discusses Faegon/Young Griff and Dany. I see many pple theorising that Young Griff will be on the throne when Dany comes to kings landing and there will be a second dance. Many of these same people claim that that Westeros won’t like Dany , view her as foreign, her foreign army etc. But wouldn’t it be the same for F/Aegon?? Like how is Aegon getting on the iron throne? Why is F/Aegon being on the throne a given. Wouldn’t he also be viewed as foreign? Not to mention that it’s Margaery who smallfolk in Kings Landing love. Then there’s the fact that high garden stands behind her, the north is pre-occupied with their own thing, the vale isn’t going to bat for F/Aegon, neither will the Westerlands, maybe Dorne and frankly so much of the kingdom has been torn apart in a Civil war. Like I don’t understand how there are 1000+ meta on Dany not being accepted by Westeros/ small folk of Kingslanding but somehow Young Griff with his smaller army and no dragons will be? Idk I just don’t see F/Aegon anywhere near the throne.

Also whether or not Westerosi people will love her or hater will Daenerys really be viewed as a foreigner cause I thought that was a show only thing. I mean anybody in Westeros who is over the age of like 35 will have lived under a Targaryen reign longer than the Lannister/Baratheon one. Anyone over 20 probably remembers when there was a Targaryen on the throne. Everybody in Westeros knows who Aegon Targaryen the Conqueror is. The Targaryen monarchy has only been gone 16 years not 100. It’s not a long time They may not like her but why would they view her as a foreigner and if they do wouldn’t they view Young Griff the same way.

Also side note I hate how the entire fandom agrees that the series is criticising monarchy, feudalism, war etc and even though it is set in a different time it’s not good but somehow don’t apply that to the xenophobic attitudes of the north and westeros. Because apparently being wary of foreigners and anyone slightly different to you is ReAsOnAbLe and good and makes sense for the time period.

Fandom discussions are very much biased against Daenerys Targaryen for various reasons. There's a lot of sexism and double standards were the character is concerned.

And yes, you are right. I don't see why the people of Westeros would be accepting of Aegon/Young Griff and reject Daenerys? They are both Targaryens and we know some of the smallfolk want them back.

If Aegon gets the Iron Throne, he will do it by conquest and making allies among the Westerosi houses. Same as what Dany will do when she gets there.Their path to the Iron Throne is the same. Keep in mind that it’s possible Rhaegar and his children were disinherited, in which case Dany has more of a claim. Young Griff/Aegon has an advantage in Varys being his supporter and taking down people like Kevan Lannister from inside.

Now, coming to why would Aegon being on the Iron Throne a given? For me, the main reason is that the Mummer’s Dragon exists and has a plot while Daenerys sorts out Meereen. KL and the Riverlands are still under an imploding Lannister regime and the North needs to sort out it's mess. Aegon is a new leader trying to take advantage of the instability in the realm. And then we have POV character Arianne Martell on her way to meet him. It's about time that the Martells get a win for all their patience, waiting to avenge Elia and her children and take out the Lannisters once and for all.

The Tyrells could very well switch allegiances once again to Aegon, if Cersei goes on the warpath against Margaery. Or they could be defeated by Aegon and his forces. I think we are going to see the razing of KL part deux. Aegon and Jon Connington are going to do to KL what Tywin Lannister did during Robert’s Rebellion. Varys is going to open the gates for him and I think Tommen and Myrcella are going to be casualties. Arianne is going to be the more beautiful queen that Cersei fears and we will probably see the destruction of KL through Arianne’s horrified POV chapter. I can see Aegon on the Iron Throne and getting Dorne, the Stormlands and the Westerlands (Not sure about the Vale and there is rebellion brewing in the Riverlands) by the time Daenerys gets to Westeros.

Whether there will be a dance of dragons between Aegon and Dany? I think this is something GRRM planned along with other conflicts in Westeros once Dany gets there and was the plot of the entire second book in the OG trilogy.

https://jackoshadows.tumblr.com/post/660735356566667264/do-you-think-dany-will-get-to-westeros-in-twow

However, not sure if he has the time to write this now with only two books left to wind up the story. We already got a book called ADwD and it was all about Dany and Jon’s leadership arcs. Others have speculated that GRRM and Dany will be bypassing that entire conflict, also possible. I do think Daenerys needs to be in control down south and Jon in control of the North in order for the realm to be unified against the threat from beyond the wall - the Targaryens are essential to defeating the Others and need to be on the Iron Throne as per Aegon’s prophecy.

And about Dany being regarded as a ‘foreigner’ that’s entirely show only nonsense. In the books the North still thinks rather well of the Targaryens, while the people they treat as outsiders and foreigners are the Freefolk.

Look at the GreatJon talking about the Targaryens while arguing to fight against Baratheon rule:

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “ Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!” - Catelyn, AGoT

Look at how Manderly thinks of Frey as a worm not worthy of Rhaegar’s name:

They watch me, ser. Day and night their eyes are on me, noses sniffing for some whiff of treachery. you saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. - Davos, ADwD

Words like ‘foreigner’ is thrown around by xenophobic show only watchers or book readers who keep otherizing Essos (In part because of the orientalism in GRRM’s writing and in part because of their own subconscious othering of a place that’s not Westeros). I had a conversation with an artist the other day about their Bran/Sansa/Arya fanart, explaining to them that Arya was as white as Sansa and Bran in the books, in canon, and it made no sense for Arya to have more melanin. I was told that the artist thinks of Arya as being dark because she’s a First Men descendant and the artist thinks of First Men as belonging to a ‘tribe’ and hence being dark skinned... 👀👀

So yeah, in canon, Aegon and Dany are both not foreigners and belong as much to Westeros as the other characters. No one sees them as foreigners, only as Targaryens.

In fact, GRRM is explicitly critical of Northern xenophobia with Jon’s entire arc with the Freefolk, concluding with:

“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”

“They were. As the lord commander knows.”

“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?” - Jon, ADwD

And yes, agree hundred percent about hypocritical double standards in this fandom regarding the North and Northern exceptionalism. I have written several posts about the same. Yes, GRRM is critical of feudal monarchy, however all of our main characters belong to this upper class of society.

And funnily enough it’s only Daenerys who is using her position to help the common man in Essos, while the monarchs in Westeros including Robb Stark, are engaging in warfare for personal gain. However, if you look at fandom, it’s only Daenerys who gets criticized for being a monarch 👀

A long reply for a long ask :D

#asks

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ao3feed-briennejaime · 2 years

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A Half Diminished Love Song

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/EIY5SMi

by FaerieChild

Jaime is a member of a former boyband that burned brightly for two spectacular years 20 years before. Now reformed without former lead singer Aerys who crashed and burned, destroying the band. As a young up-and-coming acoustic singer-songwriter Brienne considers herself above that sort of cheap, trashy, manufactured music. And men that age doing synchronised dance routines? Don’t even get her started on the pretence that they write their own music. And then there’s autotune. Brienne herself is resistent to the highly sexualised imagery the music industry pushes for young female artists and turns down a seven figure recording contract with a big label to instead sign with a small independent one.

The thing is, principles are all well and fine, but they don’t pay the bills. When Brienne is approached about a collaboration with Jaime, Brienne has to decide if the desperately needed paycheck is worth sacrificing her principles, her standards and even risking her entire future career.

Words: 1816, Chapters: 1/?, Language: English

Fandoms: Game of Thrones (TV), A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin, A Song of Ice and Fire & Related Fandoms

Rating: Not Rated

Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply

Categories: F/M

Characters: Jaime Lannister, Brienne of Tarth, Myrcella Baratheon, Petyr Baelish, Catelyn Tully Stark, Ned Stark

Relationships: Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth, Catelyn Tully Stark/Ned Stark

Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Modern Setting, Modern Westeros, Alternate Universe - Music

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/EIY5SMi

#IFTTT #ao3feed #fanfic #jaime x brienne #braime

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captainelliecomb · 3 years

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ASOIAF Rec Jaime/Brienne

in this broken jaw of our lost kingdoms by Ealisaid Rating: Mature No Archive Warnings Apply Tags: Jaime/Brienne, Myrcella Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon, Hyle Hunt, Quiet Isle marriage, Post-LSH Word count: 1,100

Summary: Brienne has never seen Casterly Rock in the light. Night had stretched for moons before their arrival, exhausted and near defeat, and she knows it only by its shadowed silhouette lit by moon and firelight. Still, she knows it well. Knows every tunnel to be defended, every fortification that keeps the Others at bay.A 6+1 style story about Brienne and Jaime during the Long Night.

Rec: Sparse, beautiful look at Brienne and Jaime fighting to keep the people around them alive even as they accept their own deaths and pine for each other.

From the @jaime-brienne-fic-exchange collection.

#fic rec #asoiaf #jaime x brienne #give me women and give me swords #too many heart feelings #brienne of tarth makes my heart sing #lannisters are a mess of beautiful things #ealisaid

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ginmo · 4 years

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Hi Ginmo, I apologize if you've already answered this but I need your opinion. Do you think GRRM wrote Cersei badly? A lot of Cersei stans say that Cersei was originally conceived as a smart, cunning and intelligent woman who became messed up due to patriarchy and childhood trauma. But then we got the backstory with the Valonqar and Melara, and how she was evil all along. Cersei stans think that that was a bad move because it makes her a less interesting character and makes her one-dimensional. They also seem jealous of Jaime and say it's sexist that Jaime (the man) is given redeeming moments while Cersei (the woman) isn't. I would agree with their logic if Cersei were the only female character but she's not?? Brienne, Arianne, Arya, Sansa and Catelyn also exist. Is it sexist that Dany is written as the better Targaryen sibling while Viserys was fucked up and killed off in the first book? Is it sexist that Joffrey was evil but Myrcella is the kind and smart girl? Is it sexist that Galladon drowned and doesn't have a personality, while Brienne (the woman) is the sibling who lived and has a story? Is it sexist that Euron Greyjoy isn't Euridyce Greyjoy? Sometimes I wonder if Cersei stans are aware that she's not the only character in the books.

I’ve noticed this opinion in the JB fandom as well, so it isn’t only a Cersei stan thing.

I respect the opinions of those who do find issue with it, and I think it’s open to debate for sure, but IMO no, I don’t think it’s sexist that he wrote Cersei the way he did, because of the reasons you listed and also... women can be narcissists, abusers, selfish, sociopaths, etc. Women aren’t immune to possessing traits that are typically applied to and explored through men. If she were the only woman and it was framed as See Power Makes Women Go Crazy, then sure. And if he has only Dany and Cersei going Mad at the end of the day Because Power while the men are trying to step in to chill them out, then there’s a problem there. But from what we’ve been given, I don’t see it that way. I don’t even see Cersei surviving Winds, so I’m not anticipating a Battle Between Two Mad Women. I see shades of grey, some worse than others, mixed in with men who are also shades of grey. As you mentioned, we have other female characters, some in pursuit of power and others who aren’t, that are various shades of grey. But we’ll see. As of now, I don’t have a problem with how he’s written Cersei.

Tbh I find it more questionable to have her only sympathetic qualities be through A Mother’s Love For Her Children, which is a popular trope applied to women that the show pushed, as if babies tame her and without them she goes crazy. Not all mothers have an innate, selfless love for their children. Just like not all fathers do.

She’ll never be redeemed in the eyes of some. She’s a character who’s very protective of her children. You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? There’s certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization. [x]

Unlike the show, he’s intentionally writing in narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies in relation to love and the world around her, which is what makes this female character interesting and different. Some will look past those traits and question if she genuinely loves them, others won’t. Personally, the narcissist read is where I lean, because I haven’t seen any evidence of genuine love throughout the series, and I love the psychology of it. What caused this? How long has she been this way? And considering Jaime isn’t like Cersei, it makes me wonder wtf happened and feel sympathy for her in that way. Many female characters were born into that world, some with similar experiences, and each of those female characters are coming out of it differently.

Her character is still complex, but in a psychologically complicated way that’s very human and realistic, not a cartoonish, flat depiction.

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turtle-paced · 4 years

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What do you make of Jaime asking Cersei to marry him? He must know that marrying one's sister doesn't happen in Westeros unless one is a Targaryen. So is this an example of Lannisters thinking themselves above and better than anyone else, Jaime being impulsive and prioritizing short-term benefits over long-term consequences, the unrealistic expectations both Jaime and Cersei have of each other, all of the above?

"This was folly." Cersei pulled her gown straight. "With Father in the castle... Jaime, we must be careful."

"I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn't we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it's me you want.”

- Jaime VII, ASoS

The short answer to most of these questions is yes. We can see that Jaime wants some Lannister exceptionalism to apply. We can see that he thinks of it in terms of Lannisters > others.

Perhaps Stannis Baratheon and the Starks had done him a kindness. They had spread their tale of incest all over the Seven Kingdoms, so there was nothing left to hide. Why shouldn't I marry Cersei openly and share her bed every night? The dragons always married their sisters. Septons, lords, and smallfolk had turned a blind eye to the Targaryens for hundreds of years, let them do the same for House Lannister. It would play havoc with Joffrey's claim to the crown, to be sure, but in the end it had been swords that had won the Iron Throne for Robert, and swords could keep Joffrey there as well, regardless of whose seed he was. We could marry him to Myrcella, once we've sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens.

- Jaime III, ASoS

The fact that the above is from Jaime III shows us that it’s not especially impulsive on Jaime’s part. He’s wanted to marry Cersei for a while. I’m also not sure this is so much short-term vs long-term thinking as Jaime’s priorities vs House Lannister’s priorities. Because this is politically disastrous for House Lannister short- and long-term.

Finally, yes, though I think Jaime’s desire for his long-term relationship not to be a secret is reasonable (and regardless of what I think of that relationship), he’s being unreasonable asking Cersei to risk the lives of her children in order to marry him. Keeping in mind that the Jaime VII conversation happens next to the corpse of their eldest child.

#ASoIaF #valyrianscrolls #jaime lannister #cersei lannister #a storm of swords #asks

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caithyra · 4 years

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Cousin in the North?

So, GRRM has said that the characters will end up more or less in the same positions in ASoIaF as they did in GoT. If you’ve seen me in other fandoms you know what that means...

Random Theory Time! (Or: How Sansa ends up ruling most of Westeros in the books, maybe?)

So, when Robb is looking at the chain of inheritance, Catelyn suggests distant cousins in the Vale of Arryn. Anyway, turns out Lord Frey is the biggest FoBzilla there ever was and now Sansa Stark is considered the only legitimate Stark alive (no one in the North believes Jeyne is Arya ffs, they watched these girls grow up! All that’s needed is for the Starks’ bannermen to be called and they take one look at Jeyne, who is the wrong age and presumably not with a long “horse-face” or she wouldn’t have thrown so many stones in that glasshouse, and boom).

Here’s the thing: Sansa Stark is not just the last legitimate Stark. She is also first cousins with the young and sickly Lord of the Vale and the niece of the dethroned Lord of the Riverlands, which is currently going through a famine in a ten-year winter, while the Vale’s granaries and larders are so full they might burst.

Yes, Edmure has a baby, but this is Westeros; if grown women like Minisa, Joanna, Lyarra and rest are dropping like damselflies, I fully expect kids under the age of 3 to drop even faster, and Edmure was probably traumatized over the whole Red Wedding thing and not in the mood to lay with his Frey wife (if the High Septon doesn’t go “weddings are not massacres!” and annuls it for a tidy sum that may or may not have the prints of “small” fingers on it). Alternatively, if Edmure dies and baby dies after him, Sansa would inherit from a cousin in the Riverlands as well.

Things Catelyn says/wants sometimes comes true (see wanting to keep Bran in the North before his fall, and then he even goes further north!). She talks about inheritance, cousins, the North and the Vale.

And the gods, whether they’re the Seven or Old, listen to Sansa’s wishes/curses at times, and Sansa wanted Harry the Heir thrown by his horse (depending on when it happens, that’s a guaranteed trampling, maybe even by several horses, sometimes not very survivable, it could also happen on the side of a mountain on a trail, even, and, well, the Moon Door is a death sentence for a reason).

What if Sansa wont be Queen in the North?

What if she will become the Queen of the Northern Kingdoms? The North, the Vale and the Riverlands?

Heck, we have the “Younger, more beautiful, Queen”-prophecy and Jaime’s quest for honor, so lets thrown in the Westerlands as well by the Western bannermen abandoning Cersei after Tommen/Myrcella’s deaths (maybe she flees King’s Landing for Casterly Rock and opens the gates to Greyjoy in exchange for becoming his wife and instead ends up a saltwife?), and going to swear fealty to Jaime, because by now the world is upside-down enough and they don’t care about some silly Kingsguard vows he already broke in the most spectacular way possible (also, they all seem to like him, so...).

Except, he pledges his sword and shield to Sansa Stark. Basically becoming her bannerman. Which makes his bannermen, her bannermen, too.

Tywin: “Muhahaha! I shall steal the North via Sansa Stark by forcing her to marry my most hated child!”

Sansa: *Yoinks the Westerlands and his favorite child from underneath his most successful child’s feet by playing much fairer than him.*

"Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

“Dear” -> Jaime’s loyalty, the adoration and fealty of the kingdoms, queen in her own right without having to marry, is called beautiful the most in the books, would get Casterly Rock through either her marriage to Tyrion or by Jaime’s vow, as well as under the tutelage of Littlefinger becomes the Queen of the Chessboard of the Game of Thrones.

Heck, with Brienne of Tarth and the Baratheons dying out, lets add the Stormlands as well!

Though those are an even longer shot, since it wouldn’t have poetic justice behind it (on the other hand, Joffrey Baratheon abused her and Stannis Baratheon wants to steal her birthright, hm...).

Basically, we don’t know who Brienne’s mother is, but she could be a Baratheon aunt, which would make Brienne next in line! ^_^ How fun! Okay, we’ve got 5/7 kingdoms now...

The Reach will probably devolve into civil war because the War of the Five Kings is pretty much half-exported from the Reach (Hightowers/Tyrells supports Renly and Joffrey and Tommen, while the Florents support Stannis, via their queens, Selyse and Margaery). Depending on how destroyed the Tyrells are, and how busy the Hightowers will be with the Greyjoys, it might end up becoming a three-way within the Reach’s borders alone.

The Iron Islands might end up swearing fealty to Sansa to pay for their transgressions through Theon and Asha, or this will be the conflict that finally gets rid of the cockroaches that should never have survived this long with their stupid culture...

Dorne will probably remain independent.

The Crownlands will burn with wildfire, but from the ashes the shoots of a new spring might grow...

Okay, so Iron Islands and the Crownlands! There, Seven Kingdoms of the North (of the Reach and Dorne). Okay, so those were a reach, but eh! This is Random Theory Time! Strict logic and accuracy need not apply!

And so you have witnessed the birth of The Queen of the Northern Kingdoms Theory. Move over BoltOn, Varys the Little Mermaid, Septa Lemore and the rest! There’s a new Queen in the North! Lol.

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dornedaily · 4 years

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Hello, friend. Would u pls help me to understand dornish's married name? Based on Dorne's gender equality laws, if any westerosi lady marries a Prince Martell she will be a Princess Martell or her birth/house name will kept the same? Princess Myrcella will be a Martell or a Baratheon?And what if she became queen, her heir would be Baratheon or Martell? Thank u so much.

GRRM gives a general answer here:

Most of the ladies of Westeros do change their names when they wed, although usage varies. If the wife's family is significantly higher born than the husband's, she may use his name little, if at all.

Some exemples that fit into this (although non-Dornish) are Catelyn Tully, Lysa Arryn and Selyse Florent. (Catelyn is a very specific case though) They all are referred by their maiden names throughout the series and most importantly, in the appendix which is objective and follows Westerosi/regional laws and customs.

There is no reason this would be different in Dorne. If anything, Dorne is the region where this usage would be most in use.

The Dornish have their own customs. The full surname of the ruling house of Dorne is Nymeros Martell, and the ruling princesses keep that in its female form. They do not take the name of their consorts.

And some of the major Dornish lordlings also follow this custom, in imitation of the ruling house. (here)

Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon IV) married into House Nymeros Martell and is never referred as Daenerys Nymeros Martell. She is the only Westerosi lady we know of that married a ruling Prince of Dorne but it does work along this rule of keeping one’s birth name. Her title was most probably something along the lines of “Daenerys Targaryen, Lady of Sunspear/Lady Nymeros Martell, Princess Consort of Dorne”. Of course, she was royalty so it is very specific: the royal name will always prevail and Westerosi ladies cannot “marry into” the Targaryen family. All non-Targaryen spouses are referred by their birth house name, starting with Elia Nymeros Martell. Other exemples of this include Cersei Lannister (never Baratheon), Myriah Nymeros Martell, Aemma Arryn, Alicent Hightower and Betha Blackwood just to name a few.

Therefore, if the lady’s birth house is higher or equal to House Nymeros Martell, she’ll keep her maiden name, if not almost exclusively. If her birth house ranks lower than House Nymeros Martell but is a major bannerhouse (say House Yronwood, House Uller or House Dayne) she’ll get to use both. If she’s from a “low” house, she’d probably use exclusively the Nymeros Martell name.

As for your second question, Myrcella will remain a Baratheon no matter what, similarly to Daenerys I Targaryen given that she’s from the royal family.

The question does not lay in whether or not Myrcella becomes Queen of Westeros, but rather on Trystane. By itself, if Myrcella becomes Queen, her children with Trystane are Baratheon heirs because Trystane is not House Nymeros Martell’s heir. He’s a third son, he is not expected to inherit. If he somehow inherited Sunspear (which would mean that Arianne somehow doesn’t inherit [you can read some of @aegonbeingfakeisracist ‘s metas on why that would be bad storytelling]), then the question can be asked. However, I’d think it would end in a similar situation than the Myriah/Maron case. Myriah was meant to inherit Sunspear but due to her marriage to Daeron II, Dorne’s ruling went over to her younger brother Maron. @goodqueenaly explained it very well in this post so I’ll just copy paste:

I think the Unnamed Prince of Dorne thought an overabundance of caution would do no harm. He would make peace with a king who obviously had no desire for war, yes, but he would not leave the possibility of Baelor’s successor trying his hand at conquest. If his daughter Mariah - who, as his eldest child, was his heiress - remained the princess-presumptive, then her Targaryen husband might try to use her claim to rule the principality himself. Dorne, the Unnamed Prince was saying, would never be ruled by a Targaryen, neither as a conqueror nor as a prince consort.

That mindset remains dominant in Dorne and applies just as well to the Baratheons (who, remember, justified their claim on the Iron Throne thanks to their Targaryen blood -- their grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen). Robert’s Rebellion and Dorne’s subsequent political marginalization did not help. Queen Myrcella and her prince consort Trystane’s children would of course be Baratheon heirs but the ruling of Dorne would probably pass over to the next Martell in line (not any of the Sand Snakes). The castellan of Sunspear is Ser Manfrey Martell (not Nymeros Martell given that Nymeros Martell is only used by the ruling branch), which means there are other Martell branches and hence other potential heirs.

Thanks for the question! :)

#asoiaf meta #meta #myrcella baratheon #trystane martell #myriah martell #maron martell #daenerys i targaryen #laws and customs #maiden names #ddpersonal #ask #anonymous #a song of ice and fire

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nossbean · 4 years

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Please, do share your feelings about Jaime and Myrcella.

So first things first: thank you so much for this ask!! I do indeed have many feelings about Jaime and Myrcella, and appreciate the question a lot! I’ve also been sitting on it for a small eternity as I’ve tried to gather my thoughts into something approaching coherency as opposed to just the rainbow-heart-shaped-bubbles with birdsong accompaniment that tend to fill my brain when I think about the possibilities, and I’m sorry for the long delay! I also apologise because i’m not sure the long delay actually resulted in a particularly satisfying (uh, or coherent!) answer 😬🤦🏻‍♀️ perhaps in part because this is something I think I might be better at exploring in fic -- part of the reason Myrcella is not fridged in possess is so I can explore some of this down the line, for instance! But giving it my best shot here, I’d say that I am intrigued and taken first with Jaime’s feelings about parenthood, and in conjunction, with the focus of those parental feelings being centred on Myrcella. A few reasons for that, which I ramble about in a sec, but one of the first things that just constantly lingers in my mind is that description of Myrcella as sweet, unlike her mother. It always struck me because of course: it isn’t a mystery where the sweetness comes from, she is indeed unlike her mother, and yet certainly much like her father. At least in that regard. (I’d argue there’s reason to think her similarly clever and observant -- that latter perhaps also a result of abuse though -- and brave, again all very much like Jaime.) That Jaime and Myrcella don’t know this is heart-wrenching. The possibility they might come to learn it though... 🥺

I also just really love and appreciate good portrayals of fathers-with-daughters. So much media centres on sons (and indeed, currently Jaime’s arc in ASOIAF is going that way, with Jaime’s reflections on/plans for Tommen; with Myrcella being returned to KL though, I guess we’ll see...?) that it’s a breath of fresh air when there is a healthy portrayal of a father-daughter relationship, ie when it doesn’t centre on that trope of, “Dad is deeply, reprehensibly paternalistic via supposedly protective measures about his daughter, particularly as pertains to her interest in boys (if she has one).” I tend to think Jaime would have protective impulses, but also his feelings about women’s rights (I’ll call them, though ofc in canon this term... doesn’t apply) would stand to counter them: also perhaps particularly his sense that if given guardianship over Myrcella, he’d not want to replicate the way Cersei was treated by their father, never mind how his perspectives will have changed with Brienne in his life. I don’t think it’s a stretch that Jaime’s protective impulses would be turned outward, as opposed to directed at Myrcella’s behaviour, for instance.

In the book canon world where Myrcella knows he is her father in the same way show!Myrcella did, I’d be really interested in how that would play out as well, and whether book!Myrcella would be similarly happy about it. Undoubtedly Jaime is... I mean, the degree to which he’s better than Robert needs no comment. But that doesn’t mean she’d be thrilled, given the rest of the context, and I think getting to see how she feels about it, messy situation and all, and how they work together to have a relationship would be... well, I want to see it...! I also wonder how much her injury and the loss of Arys Oakheart might impact how quickly she might cleave again to her uncle/father, given the chance of that safe harbour. I personally think AFFC demonstrated that many vulnerable folx recognize Jaime for the protector he is, and I guess the potential complexity of that dynamic, knowing how much love is possible there but how uphill a road it is, gets me.

I’d be lying if I didn’t also say that I’d love to read Myrcella being taken in by Pia, though I reckon that is purely the purview of fanfic. And OF COURSE, whatever relationship Myrcella might have with Brienne is something I’d fucking love to see.

I guess the last thought I have about why I have many feelings about these two kind of carries on from that last, which is the sense that in the book!canon world, they could possibly help one another heal and recover. The Lannister family legacy is trauma, and here is one of a handful of opportunities in Jaime’s arc, and perhaps the only opportunity in Myrcella’s, to break that pattern and forge something new, and better, and with actual love at the centre of it. <3

#thank you <3!#really i hope this makes sense! i've tried to distill my mess of feelings into coherency so fingers crossed...!#i poss should have made other life choices than wrangling my thoughts at 3am but here we are and i'm all in!#lewispanda #askbox #char: jaime lannister #char: myrcella baratheon #meta: asoiaf #kinda?#asoiaf: lannisters

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rosenfey · 4 years

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tagged by the sweet @chuckhansen, thank you so much, Airika! 💛💛💛

tagging: @blueraptorsmain, @fantasmagoriam, @jennystahl, @ciriofcintras, @toreadours, @myrcella, @engwith, @troyebakers, @starsandskies, @ladyinthebluebox, @emerius, @fillianore, @fenharel, @thalasians, @arthrmorgann, @toreadours, @friendowldesign, @yennefre, @solesurvivorkat, @eleanorguthrie, @bvckybvnes, @callmeredhood, @zephyrcrowthorne, @readceras ☀️☀️☀️

— RULES: It’s time to love yourselves! Choose your 5 favourite works you created in the past year (fics, art, edits, etc. ) and link them below to reflect on the amazing things you brought into the world. Tag as many writers/artists/etc. as you want (fan or original) so we can spread the love and link each other to awesome works!

my ongoing long-fic project, DEAD MAN’S WISH (a far cry 5 western!AU) — It’s the first time I ever published a multi-chaptered work and under the risk of appearing too narcissistic, it’s my biggest achievement as of yet and I’m very proud of myself because it’s actually amazing and it feels wonderful to be able to pull off something as imaginative, deep, intriguing and sweet at the same time. I always wanted a western story that would not be primarily about outlaws, violence, and shootouts in saloons. I wanted a story that would combine the deep connection between characters with a mysterious narrative that takes inspiration from American folklore and monsters. I wanted a story where the drama would be just as important as the psychological inner workings of the character’s minds that each have their own troubles to overcome. And having to actually achieve something like that, looking at the word count grow, knowing I put hours and hours of effort into it and appreciating what I do? It’s the happiest I have ever felt. #my mind ♥

"Confession”, a far cry 5 ONESHOT — I rarely publish my oneshots online, not out of fear of their quality, just not feeling the need, but this was the first one I posted after a long time. I LOVE and LIVE for getting into character’s heads, I enjoy the psychological work of trying to get in their shoes and feel how they feel and write it all down. This one sums up the complicated relationship between John and Debbie during the events of the game - the conflict between trying to save the one you love and stopping them from doing the wrong thing. It’s a year and so old now and I would probs change a few syntax and grammar things, but the overall vibe is something that underlines the tension between them so well and I’m glad I was able to pull it off!

this EDIT for Dead Man’s Wish — I always wanted to try my hand at something “more complicated” and I finally got the courage to do so! I’m really digging this new format and I’ve been using it in my other edits as well

my series of edits I did for WORLD BUILDING JUNE 2019 — Night Lands has been my original story project since I was a teen and there has been literal years of work poured into the world and the plot. Appearance-wise they are not my prettiest edits (they are almost a year old now!), so the lore of it is more of an achievement in my eyes; I have also edited a bunch of stuff since then and it misses a few important entries I didn’t manage to post last year (like the sun-worshipping religion aspect and the race of sun elves; i will add these later!), but it felt really nice to create something for 30 consecutive days

this PHOTOSHOOT I took of my favourite place during last summer — I love castle ruins in general, but these ones hold immense emotional connection to my soul; instagram version here (among my other photos *wink wink*); also, it’s over a year long so it doesn’t apply, but this photo is my absolute fave I have ever taken

HONORARY MENTION, because I can: this DRAWING of Debbie — I literally draw once in a few months and all I achieve are basically sketches like this and I’m extremely unconfident about my skills, but I really like how this one turned out (despite the mistakes)

#ambie got tagged #its appeachiating oneself hours!#i didnt want to fill this all with my writing because we all know im extremely confident with that ghgng #so its a little bit of everything :3c #yes i believe photography counts as creative work next question

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aegonbeingfakeisracist · 5 years

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Okay, I really need to gush about Arianne Martell for a minute. Because obviously House Martell doesn’t get the same level of love as the Starks or Targaryens or whatever, but even within the house, Arianne is often overlooked. Elia has her small, devoted fanbase; Oberyn and Doran have plenty of fans each; but Arianne, despite her rich storyline, can’t really compete in the broader fandom circles with the Sansa, Cersei, Arya, Dany bases in terms of attention. And of these characters, I think Sansa is the most relevant to talking about Arianne. This might come across as a little negative about her, so I should say: I have absolutely nothing against Sansa. This is not an anti-Sansa post. But I feel some her fans react to the unfair and sexist criticism she gets in ways that throw other characters, particularly those of colour, under the bus. We see it in terms of some theories with Aegon, and we certainly see it in terms of Arianne. So let’s talk about it.

I find it interesting that so many of the people constantly talking about how Sansa is going to become politically active and learns from her mistakes and gain power through words and talking and convincing people of things, rather than fighting, are overlooking the fact that we’ve actually seen this with Arianne.

Unlike Sansa, Arianne doesn’t use courtesy as armour or any such thing. She’s not nice in any kind of performative way. But she’s kind. She’s good. She cares about people even as she uses them, she loves her friends even when she thinks they’ve betrayed her, she’s devastated if harm befalls anyone that put their trust in her or chose to fight for her. She inspires immense personal loyalty for a reason. It’s not because she’s a Martell, it’s because she’s Arianne.

It’s sometimes manipulation, as with Arys, but it’s just as often convincing people through honesty and openness and willingness to share emotions, as with Daemon, and sometimes it’s a combination of the two, as with Myrcella. It’s a very different strategy than Cersei’s method of applying the same solution to every problem. And what does it yield? Well...Myrcella idolizes Arianne and will seemingly do practically anything she asks/suggests, even after someone cut off her ear. Daemon is deeply loyal to her and offers honesty, counsel, and support in return. She’s full of self doubt after failures, and it prevents her from realizing that even though she did make mistakes, she still has people on her side. Her way of approaching her goals through the people is the method for a lasting, long term success.

Arianne has learned to think and find out information before acting. Arianne has the skills to make friends and influence people. Arianne is the centre of a story of courtly love with her childhood friend and first love still in love with her a decade later even though he knows they can never be. Arianne isn’t a fighter, but still keeps a knife in her boot because it was a gift from her cousin Nym and she is determined to at least try to protect herself if it comes to it.

I’m probably in the minority here, but I feel that while there is a hugely sexist backlash against Sansa, it’s not actually because she’s feminine. It’s because she’s young and impractical. Still sexist, but not the same thing. If it were about femininity, the arguments about what makes Arianne terrible would be very different, because Arianne is just as feminine as Sansa is. I don’t see any way to argue against that. We’re talking about a girl that used to pray to be beautiful. She would go to Oberyn and beg him for stories. She dresses far more elaborately than just about everyone else in the story, always in silk and samite and Myrish lace. She’s very much a noblewoman with all the femininity that entails. And, same as with Sansa, the backlash against her isn’t entirely because of that, either. She’s viewed as shallow and entitled because she recognizes when people are good looking and wants her birthright. And that’s not because she’s beautiful or because she wears dresses, it’s because she’s a woman of colour with ambition that’s determined to not be pushed aside for her brother and that knows she’s drop dead gorgeous. It’s because she’s brown and refuses to be subservient and doesn’t believe in false modesty about how hot she is. It’s far more about what she fundamentally is as a person than her level of femininity.

It’s similar to why I think the tendency of a lot of fans to sympathize with Lyanna over Elia isn’t actually about femininity. I’ve seen a lot of people bringing up the fact Lyanna was a “tomboy”, whatever that means. But I don’t think that’s it. Because what makes her such? That she liked to ride horses? That she “would have carried a sword” if her father had allowed it? Those don’t make her special. This is a medieval society and every able bodied woman rides horses. Plenty of women carry weaponry as well, and if you dismiss the Sand Snakes, either “because they’re Dornish” or because they’re bastards, there’s still Maege, Dacey, and Alysanne Mormont; Asha Greyjoy; Meera Reed; and Brienne of Tarth. These women don’t get that kind of adulation. No, the reason Lyanna does has to do with the fact hers is a story of “star crossed lovers” separated by a woman of colour married to a white man. It’s about ableism and racism and just the fact that Lyanna is from the family that the core ASOIAF series centres around. She could have been almost anything and it wouldn’t matter because it’s really about her not being a chronically ill brown woman.

If the Sansa thing was about femininity, Obara, with her horses and spears and men’s clothing and so called mannish appearance, would be the most popular Sand Snake. She’s not - she’s dismissed as stupid and bloodthirsty. If it were about femininity, Brienne would have just as much backlash, because as much as people like to use her as an example of “masculine” women that weren’t common in actual history, she’s really, really not - she’s just as much of an idealist and a romantic as Sansa herself. Women may be mocked for having feminine interests, but that really doesn’t come close to the kind of abuse they get when men don’t find them attractive. So I find it very annoying when the go to response is about Sansa being feminine. I guess my main point here is...I like Sansa. But she’s not the only one that’s feminine. The vitriolic reaction she gets is often hugely sexist, but I’m not inclined to believe the argument that it’s because of her femininity, and I find Arianne - a feminine woman of colour who is interested in managing a kingdom in terms of everything from politicking with kings to collecting taxes - a more interesting exploration of the strength of women in a feudal society. A large part of why I like Sansa involves the similarities I see between her and Arianne, so it grates my nerves to see the latter ignored. (Also, if there’s a character that’s vilified specifically for being feminine, it’s very clearly Tyene. Her femininity is frequently brought up as a reason why she’s creepy.)

There’s a post I saw about how Sansa represents the real women of history, and one of the examples used was Eleanor of Aquitaine being a kingmaker. And that’s kind of annoyed me, because that’s Arianne’s plot. It’s basically her whole modus operandi - her plan to crown Myrcella, her journey to treat with Aegon and choose whether or not to support his claim. She learned about history and law and politics even when her father was raising her not to rule Dorne in her own right, but to be the wife of the king - feasts and frolics, not governance. She listens to the people around her with knowledge she doesn’t have; she convinces the people that can actually fight to join her side. All of this involves intelligence and persuasion and political skill. So to me, the talk about why Sansa’s journey to become a political character is special cannot happen without also discussing Arianne. Failing to do so ends up feeling painfully white feminist through the erasure of a woman of colour whose political moves and understanding lets her affect the entire world in favour of a rather juvenile “lipstick as red as the blood of your enemies” thing.

I’m not saying all Sansa fans are erasing Arianne. But I am saying that a conversation about the role of women in the Westerosi political sphere needs to include her. It doesn’t diminish Sansa to remember that she’s not the only one female character whose story isn’t about fighting or violence. But it is offensive to exclude Arianne when discussing how Sansa is like and unlike Cersei or Margaery, because she may not be directly interacting with any of these characters, but she’s a woman of colour in a position of power in a story dominated by white people and hers is the same kind of political power that the others wield. It may not be intentional, but it’s still racist to not include her in these forms of analyses.

Arianne has the romantic love and devotion Sansa longs for. She has the trust and inheritance that Cersei longs for. She has the freedom to make more choices than women anywhere else in Westeros that Arya longs for. She has the close knit family that Daenerys longs for. It’s a very common trope to set up someone who has something the lead character wishes they did and have it play out that said person isn’t a good person, or doesn’t think whatever the lead character wants is all that it’s cracked up to be. But with Arianne? She’s the person that has all the things the other women want and she’s not a flat character or a villain, she’s a good person whose perspective we see! So the question becomes what is it like to have so much going for you? What problems do you have when you’re smart, beautiful, beloved? What problems do you have when unlike women anywhere else, you can inherit? What do you want, what would make you happy, what causes do you believe in? And it’s so fascinating to watch her figure out the answers to those questions.

I especially love it because Arianne having what all these other characters want isn’t having it in a nominal sense. I think Sansa’s desire for someone to love her “for her” alongside Daemon’s feelings for and fealty to Arianne is the best example of this. That quote of Sansa’s makes Arianne and Daemon’s story stand out as even more beautiful. It’s clear that Daemon asking for her hand wasn’t about power, but genuine feelings for her. And when you think about where those feelings came from, what he was thinking when they first began their relationship, it’s important to remember that when they were together, neither of them was particularly good looking. Arianne thinks to herself that the boy she knew has grown into a handsome man. So even the attraction wasn’t about looks, at the very least on Arianne’s part, and probably on Daemon’s, too, because Arianne was more explicitly described as not beautiful when she was a child. And that means that their relationship has been one completely based on who they are for as long as they’ve known each other. Not power, not prestige, not even physical appearance. Daemon loves Arianne because she’s Arianne, smart and driven and with an enormous capacity to care for other people. Sansa craves that kind of love, even as she thinks she’s accepted she won’t ever have it. And that drives home the idea that it’s Arianne that Sansa could grow up to be.

Yes, Cersei had a big influence on Sansa. But Cersei cares about, like, three and a half people. Maybe five and a half if you include the people she cares about in the sense that she hates them and wants to go out of her way to make them miserable (I’d round that one to a whole number and make a half man joke, but that seems like it would be in poor taste). That’s not Sansa. And that’s not Arianne at all, because Arianne gets invested. She cares about the people she wants to rule. She doesn’t have it in her to manipulate people while staying emotionally detached from them. Because of that, I’m inclined to believe Sansa is much more like Arianne than she is Cersei. It makes me really want the two of them to meet.

In fact, Arianne is more like Cersei than Sansa is, too. They’re both oldest siblings that feel mistakenly threatened by a younger brother. They both resent being marginalized because they’re women. They both have a lot of issues with the fathers they were close to as children (very explicitly in Arianne’s case, more implied in Cersei’s). They're both smart, driven, brave, hot blooded, and determined to take advantage of everything and everyone at their disposal. They both go through specific events that are devastating and traumatic for them - the failure of Arianne’s queenmaker plot and Cersei’s walk of atonement. But they also differ in a lot of key ways: Arianne learns from her mistakes early on while Cersei spent most of five books refusing to take criticism. Arianne will rule Dorne in her own right, while Cersei derives her power from her children. Cersei was abused while Arianne was cherished. Arianne could repair her relationship with her father while Cersei never could. Cersei is paranoid and unforgiving to the point where people actually start to plot against her while Arianne misses and loves the friends she suspects betrayed her. For all their similarities, they are on very different paths. And unlike Arianne and Sansa, these are characters I do see meeting. And that would be awesome.

#A Song of Ice and Fire #Arianne Martell #Sansa Stark #Cersei Lannister

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warwaged-archive · 4 years

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SHIPPING INFO!

WHAT IS YOUR OTP FOR YOUR CHARACTER?:

I’m always so nervous talking about ships I like I’m kajndfkajndfkjndf

I love all the ships I write, or have discussed more than written aksndfkajnd (Alleria/Willa, Kelantir/Halduron, Thalyssra/Nera, Lor’themar/Airlia with @sunrunnerrs, Tyrande/Sylv, Nathanos/Sylv with @ladywindrunner we also begun exploring lor’themar/sylv and I like it :eyes:, Tyrande/Malfurion and Illidan/Kael with @aen-consilium and Alex/Kori with @psychcdelica and also Tiffin/Varian with @goldwrynn and Myrcella/Robb with @wclfcrown) but I love some I never got to write too. I like Alleria and Turalyon, I just don’t like how canon does it kajndfkandf Tyrande/Ysera is otp, I like Tyrande/Illidan too and Thalyssra/Liadrin. For my DA characters, I have no ships with any of them currently. I like Morrigan/Warden depending on Warden ofc but like, generally speaking? aiushdiafiduhf but also since we’re here and I’ve already listed some ships that I’m always nervous to mention let’s add one more and say I like Morrigan/Alistair too. I like Velanna/Nathaniel tentatively and am mostly team Velanna/anyone who loves her as she deserves. For my Warden and my Hawke and also Nalice I don’t really have any to list that I particularly like I think. Anyways! none of those is set in stone as I just like that or anything like it, it’s just I find them interesting. But when it comes to writing, it really is more about chemistry to me, and I’ve written ships I wouldn’t have initially thought of before and came to love them dearly after writing them so!

WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO WRITE WHEN IT COMES TO SHIPPING?:

I love angsty relationships, and I love fluff, and I’m willing to write most things. I’m not interested in anything that’s like, uh, strictly abusive, but toxic/problematic relationships are fair game for me. So pretty much anything?

HOW LARGE DOES THE AGE GAP HAVE TO BE TO MAKE IT UNCOMFORTABLE?:

Specially considering average human lifespans do not apply to many of my muses, it is more a matter of everyone involved being consenting adults really, with a similar maturity level.

ARE YOU SELECTIVE WHEN SHIPPING?:

More or less? There has to be chemistry, both in like, writing and the characters as well as with me getting along with the other mun ooc, even if we don`t talk much. I’ll be down for discussing it if we talk ooc a lot even if we haven`t yet written those particular two characters together, and at the same time I`ll be okay with shipping something that happens from something we`re writing even if we don`t really interact ooc much, but if we haven`t interacted at all I won`t really be interested in shipping until we do. I was less selective in the past, I think, but I’m not really super selective even now aisudhuiah it`s really just a matter of interaction, both in character and out of character.

HOW FAR DO STEAMY MOMENTS HAVE TO GO BEFORE THEY ARE CONSIDERED NSFW?:

Anything that`s explicit is considered nsfw but I`ll tag anything that`s even suggestive because I prefer to be safe.

DOES ONE HAVE TO ASK TO SHIP WITH YOU?:

I like discussing ships, but not necessarily. I’ve had ships that just happened without prior discussion and that I love dearly and I find developing it through writing and letting it happen very satisfying. But I am up for discussing stuff beforehand if I’m familiar with the mun, and even more so if we already have a ship. I’m 100% fine with anyone asking about a ship if we write together and haven`t shipped yet and you see potential, as long as you do so fully aware no is a possible answer skjdnfkandsf I do prefer to talk to people and write with them before shipping, though.

ARE YOU SHIP OBSESSED OR SHIP MORE-OR-LESS?:

I really love ships tbh! Relationships (and here I’m using the word in the broader sense, not only romantic relationships) are my favorite when it comes to developing characters, and I love writing romantic relationships too. When I get really invested in a ship I can discuss it forever probably kajsndkfjn But I also don’t feel like everything has to be a ship or everyone has to have a romantic relationship to someone else. Some of the best bonds are often platonic, and I get as invested in (or more) platonic ships as I do romantic relationships honestly. I really do like shipping though! I don`t know if I`d say obsessed but I definitely lean more towards that than towards more or less.

ARE YOU MULTISHIP?:

Depends on the muse! I default to being multiship, and my ships with @sunrunnerrs that are singleship were actually the first time I ever went singleship with anyone, so for that to happen we have to be pretty close ooc. For the most part, I`m multiship but exclusive with one version of a character, so I usually don`t write the same ship with multiple people. Kelantir is singleship with Aera`s Halduron and Thalyssra with Nera, but other than that everyone works like I said before.

WHAT IS YOUR FAVOURITE SHIP IN YOUR CURRENT FANDOM?:

Beyond the already mentioned ships, I think Tyrande/Maiev has a lot of potential in a enemies to lovers sort of way; I love Wranduin (thanks Novi and Flower for blessing my dash with good content always); Stellagosa/Valtrois and Lorna/Tess are neat, and hmmm that’s mostly it for WoW. I used to love Rhonin and Vereesa a whole lot back when I begun reading the WoW books too. For DA, I like Leliana/Josie, Mahariel/Tamlen, Carver/Merrill, Merrill/Isabela, Solavellan, hmm I think there’s more? but I don’t remember now? and all the PC romances from DAO and Hawke/Fenris, Hawke/Anders and Hawke/Isabela; I like Cullen and the Inquisitor too. For ASOIAF I’m just tired and not invested enough in the fandom currently to mention any ships kjndkjnfkandfjn

FINALLY, HOW DOES ONE SHIP WITH YOU?:

Step 1: write with me. Step 2: talk to me. Sometimes ships just happen with Step 1. Lots of times, Step 2 is just as important. It really depends, but it really isn’t hard. I love shipping and I’m always open to discuss ships!

TAGGED BY: @ladywindrunner

#I had done this? but I thought I'd do it again and include all muses this time #* out of character: the mun / THAT GLOOMY GIRL WHO SIGHS A LOT?#I'm always nervous about saying I ship things #I always expect people to be judgmental and mean aksdjfnkasjndfkasdf #>.<#but also! a disclaimer that the ships I mentioned as otps are NOT the only ones I'll write they're just ships I like #and that doesn't really make them more likely to happen #and also that if you write any of the other muses there that doesn't mean I'll autoship or anything like that #anyways! yeah #I love ships ship with me guys

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