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warsamongthestars · 2 months

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Honestly you are so right. I never thought about it like that.

Having recently rewatch TBB from their introduction episode in TCW, i kept going "what the hell".

Admittingly, i did NOT like them at first. I enjoyed the other clones, but i just.. couldn't care until after s1 of TBB and even then, only S2 made me fall in love and S3 made me dwell deeper.

But rewatching TCW episodes... i can see why. Its not just that its different writing, that whole episode was INCREDIBLY cheesy, they were cheesy. And whats funny is i don't think they're too bad after their introduction episode.. but its like. They all fit into their sterotypes first episode, but TBB actually gave them personalities i feel, so when rewatching their introduction... it feels.. Not super iconic, sorry if that is an unpopular opinion.

Like their poses and first fight is really cool, but the whole conversation they have not only implies what you said, but also comes off as "edgelord 10 y/o boy who has watched way too many adventure movies". Which i get they were trying to be show offs as well as show the audience they are extreme.

But it just.. comes across as goofy to me.

and to be clear, i know star wars in general can be seen as cheesy, I'm not knocking down cheesy-ness, and i love most TCW episodes new and old, but i think thats why it bothers me ? I don't remember feeling "oh thats cheesy" in a negative light in any other episode, even with other series.

Sorry that this got long !!!!!

Damn, first ask. XD

Thank you for that! But uh...

... The irony here is that I have to disagree. I liked them in TCWs over TBB, and I wanted to see more of what the TCWshow's BBs had to offer.

I went the old fashioned way of watching TCWs (For the clones, I don't care that much about Jedi stories), and by the time I reached S7, they were announcing TBBshow. I had the build up from that, to reach the momentum and when I made it to the Bad Batch Arc, it was like falling in love with clones all over again.

Cliche in function, yes, by all viewing they fullfill their cliches.

But let me point out something that occurs in character writing--How the character acts to their friends, will be different with how the character acts to their coworkers, and how they act to their own families, to how they act to strangers. This is part of how you create a 3-Dimensional Character.

So my interpretation is different. Here's how my thought process went.

What we saw in TCWs, was merely how the BBs act when acting under officers (Coworkers) they didn't know (Strangers).

( Wrecker starts enthusiastic but "dumb" muscle, but as the Arc went on, he actually mellowed out. Showing that while he's excitable, he's not actually as excitable as what he introduced himself as. He's clever not "dumb muscle", he's multi-capable (he's the second pilot of the Marauder), he's in more control of himself than anyone on the team (hence that when he lifts Jesse up, Jesse is fine afterwards, when by that point we've seen that he lifts ships--he could've easily hurt Jesse but he didn't))

Given they don't look or act like clones, and looking and acting like clones is expected in their position or risk removal, they were effectively playing themselves up as their "cliches" in order to sell their skills and avoid unnecessary or even dangerous questions.

( Hunter is constantly snarky and never directly answers anything about "who you report to" or "how many missions you were on". But at the start, he was promoting the hell out of his unit's capabilities. )

The Bad Batch were a series of characters that bounced off each other beautifully. Its something everyone noticed about them.

(From Crosshair using Tech's shoulder as a mount, to Wrecker tossing Hunter up, to Hunter and Crosshair's subtle backing each other up, to Wrecker quoting Tech. )

Their group dynamics are part of their greatest strength as a set of characters.

With the introduction of Echo, who unlike in TBB, Echo was enthusiastic and clever and crafty, with a playful sense of humor (not unlike how he started as a character in TCWs).

You've got an excellent addition to a group that already has strong character dynamics.

Echo, having been an Audience Surrogate Character for Clones in TCWs, would've easily been the main POV of whatever BB show came out of TCWs. Because he can ask the questions the audience would ask, and Echo is a familiar character with years of backing that the audience would be familiar with.

So you're right, in my book, about TCWshow. Though how I view how right you are is different because of my subtext.

The Bad Batch Arc of TCWs was a Good, if a bit trippy, Start, and not a finisher for the team. After all, all introductions tend to be rather clumsy (just ask TCWs' pilot film).

Which laid in the implication that we're going to Get that Finisher. And the journey.

But when we hit TBB... Then turned the nuance surface of TCWs Bad Batch, and either cut it out, or dumbed it down, or in two cases, changed it entirely.

( TCWs Hunter was a snarky worrywort who let his brothers do the actions while he stays in the corner, but he's dragged out because he's the "Sergeant". TBB Hunter is a stoic quiet type who wants order and control. TCWs Hunter and TBB Hunter are two entirely different characters. In fact, if I may speculate fan wise, TBB Hunter would be the kind of person that would cause TCWs Hunter to Shutdown... and we have evidence of this from TCWs; where Rex gets into Hunter's face, and Hunter shutsdown entirely until after the scene change. )

( Wrecker got dumbed down. That Explosive Enthusiasm he played up, became his defining feature (They effectively pulled a misfandom on their own original creation). While they did show he does have vulnerabilities and some of that TCWs cleverness... it often got overshadowed. )

( They removed Crosshair and broke the group dynamic, destroying the strongest part of their characters, which was their interactions with each other. )

( Echo went from Enthusiastic, Clever and Humor, to Just Bitchy. They didn't bring back his other facet at all. And mid way through TBB, they removed his character--effectively making anything about him a moot point. It nullified his introduction into the BBs )

( And I'm not going to go into a tyraid here about Omega. )

And suddenly, there wasn't any nuance anymore, because the BBs acted the same everywhere they went. There wasn't any developments, because the BBs didn't discuss anything for the audience to know.

Maybe a dramatic glance in the distance--but that's more Cliche than their character archetypes. Character Archetypes, no matter how obvious, can shift and change as they Develop.

But there's no character developing in TBB that doesn't involve how the show broke what made them strong characters to begin with.

Its like trying to make a house, but the foundation is the ceiling and attic, and the "ceiling" is the 3000 tons of solid fucking concrete.

The story, which was about how the Empire rose from the Republic, was literally elsewhere, so there was nothing that spurred the characters to do anything that involved the plot.

Now as you can prolly guess by this point, I'm very very keen on Character Driven stories, and I pay attention to character. While I treat all things as a "fan-fiction" (Given that fan-fiction shows the effort it takes to create a story or create anything), when it comes to officially published stuffed--so with teams, and a budget, and hired people to do the work--I expect the "fan-fiction" to go up in quality, to follow the format and standard set up and simply either stick to it or surpass it.

I think TBBshow was too clumsy, too fragmented, and far too shiny, for what it had. Having a small part of the metaphorical quilt work, doesn't subtract from the fact that the rest of the quilt is full of holes.

Have small good points, I'm afraid, doesn't make up for the fact that it was overall, a poorly written show that bites its prior series' hand.

It just means that, now, you have to steal the good points to add to whatever BBsquad exists in one's mind.

You take the part of the quilt that works... and make your own Quilt, and damn whoever fucked up the first job.

#ask #star wars #star wars the clone wars #star wars the bad batch #the clone wars #the bad batch #hunter clone wars #hunter bad batch #wrecker clone wars #wrecker bad batch #crosshair clone wars #echo clone wars #echo bad batch #analysis #critical analysis #construction and deconstruction

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transitranger327 · 2 months

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So I actually have a Star Wars story to tell (it’s a core memory): Echo has always been my favorite clone trooper. My family, especially my brother and I, started watching The Clone Wars during season 1 and we became mega-fans (I was 9, he was 6, literally the target demo). Every Friday we’d watch the new episodes, then Saturday we’d go to star wars dot com and watch all the behind-the-scenes content. We missed the first time “Rookies” aired, but we saw the behind the scenes content for it, and caught it on reruns. We immediately knew Fives and Echo were our favorite clones, he picked Fives so I picked Echo. But we were so disappointed when they weren’t in the rest of Season 1 or 2. But we were absolutely stoked for the series 3 premiere when we heard Fives and Echo were in it. And then they were gonna be ARC troopers? We were losing our minds. Our favorite boys, ARC troopers‽ Unfortunately for me, the Citadel arc happened next. Don’t get me wrong, we loved seeing the Dominos in the phase 1.5 armor. But for some reason we missed the end of episode 2 of the arc (where Echo dies), and when the bts content said Echo died I was inconsolable. I refused to ever watch the ending of that episode for YEARS. When Fives kept showing up in seasons 4 and 5 (Umbara arc is like my favorite SW movie), I was always jealous that my brother’s fave was still around and mine wasn’t. Then TCW was cancelled and I thought that was the end of it.

About a year later, I heard they made half of a Season 6 but it was only on Netflix. It took me a while to figure out how to watch it (on the high seas, as my family didn’t have Netflix), but I was in high school now. The first arc having Fives discover order 66 and coming this close to exposing it? I’d been thinking about that kind of story for forever (my favorite Star Wars AUs are where order 66 didn’t happen or was disobeyed). I was so excited to tell my brother…until I saw s7e4 and Fives died. My brother was just as sad/mad as I was when Echo died. But I finished Season 6 and thought that was the end…until I went onto star wars dot com and saw that there were unfinished animations for some episodes called “the Bad Batch”. And then…my world became whole. ECHO WAS ALIVE!!!!! Sure it was janky af, felt dubiously canon, he had been thru hell and was now a cyborg, but MY BABY BOY! My brother was, of course, just as jealous that my clone was alive and his wasn’t.

Then 4 years later. TCW Season 7 was announced. The Bad Batch arc would be in glorious HD. Echo was firmly alive and hanging out with the Bad Batch. And he got me thru lockdown, as TCW was one of my comfort shows I’d watch and s7 was airing in April/May 2020. And the Bad Batch were gonna get their own show? Hell fucking yeah.

Here we are, 16 years after Echo first graced my small TV screen, and he’s still my fave. I see a lot of myself in him. How by-the-book he used to be and isn’t anymore, how his life fundamentally changed and now’s not exactly a man (I figured out my sexuality, gender, and disabilities in 2019 right before TCW s7 remastered Echo’s return). I would almost certainly die inside again if he dies in the TBB finale. Anyway I’ve never shared anything this personal about Star Wars with anyone and TBB tumblr definitely seems like the kind of people who want to hear this.

#star wars #the clone wars #the bad batch #clone trooper echo #tbb echo #lgbtq #seriously corbett and rau if you hurt echo again i will find you

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bedlamsbard · 1 year

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Number 7 for the chose violence ask game?

7. what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them?

This is an immediate and unhesitating Star Wars answer: Ahsoka.

so these days a lot of my annoyance is about the canon, but go back in time to 2015 when the Rebels S1 finale came out. at this point Ahsoka had not appeared in (real time) Star Wars canon since the first TCW series finale (this show has had three for various reasons), which aired in March 2013, which is actually not that long. (She showed up briefly in Yoda's vision when Lost Missions aired in 2014, the second TCW series finale.) From a 2023 perspective, two years is not that long, but it was 2015, okay. TFA had not yet come out. Rebels S1 had just aired. The decanonization of Legends wasn't even a year old yet; the amount of new (Disney) canon Star Wars was in the single digits. This was years before Disney+ or TCW S7 (the third TCW series finale) and live action Star Wars television was an oft-shotdown rumor (Star Wars Underworld, we remember you kindly).

Back in 2014 when they first announced Rebels, there was a lot of bitterness about it -- did they cancel TCW for this, why aren't any of these characters Ahsoka, could Sabine maybe be Ahsoka? (They first introduced her helmeted.) You can probably find some of this on my Tumblr if you go back far enough because I was also very wary at the time. All through when Rebels S1 was airing there was a lot of conversation about when or if Ahsoka was going to show up in a way you really wouldn't get today, because these days we're used to cameos and crossovers. When Fulcrum made their debut with the masked voice in Out of Darkness, people reverse-engineered that voice and did digital...stuff...to try and figure out if it was Ashley Eckstein voicing the character, because back then people immediately did assume that Fulcrum was Ahsoka. And then Fire Across the Galaxy came out, and Ahsoka actually did appear, and then the animated side of Star Wars fandom lost its fucking mind.

so you have to understand that a lot of TCW fans did not go over to Rebels when it first aired. many did, I was one of them, but a lot didn't because they were very angry about TCW being cancelled, about Ahsoka not being a main character, about Rebels' art style -- gods, that one had (and still has!) people furious. and then Ahsoka appeared in Rebels with her new design and people just LOST IT.

(not my edit)

people were FURIOUS she didn't like her TCW vision version -- like, you think the reaction to her live action appearance was bad? please, we were all dead inside by that point and inured to Star Wars' nonsense. I have seen some shit in the Star Wars fandom and the reaction to Ahsoka's Rebels redesign is way up at the top of the list. The shape of her lekku and montrals. The tiger striping on her lekku. The shape of her face. The way her facial markings changed. Her skin color. The one that always sticks in my head are the people who argued that because she was wearing a different headband Filoni and Co. had stripped her of her cultural identity as a Togruta. The list goes on. I swear to gods however bad you think it was from what I'm saying it was worse. No, worse than that.

That's just the aesthetic elements. What also happened as soon as she had appeared was people going "well, Ahsoka's here, so Kanan is obviously going to die," and this went on for ALL of the hiatus summer between S1 and S2, and ALL of S2. As many SW fen who follow me know, Kanan is my favorite, so I was logging on every day to find people discussing how Kanan was extraneous and marked for death because why would you have Kanan when you could have AHSOKA. I got very bitter about it. (Not helped by canon completely fumbling Kanan every time Ahsoka was onscreen, I am still EXTREMELY angry about the hot mess that was The Future of the Force.)

Two years later canon quite literally did swap Kanan out for Ahsoka, and I've never really gotten over it, but when World Between Worlds aired that was the first thing that I thought of. It was just...extremely bad.

And then in general people get extremely weird about Ahsoka in the way that people always get about their faves (depth? flaws? we've never heard of them), in a way that's just been getting much worse over the years since Rebels S4 (which I hate) and TCW S7 (which I hate) and the live action appearance (which I hate) and the upcoming show (which I refuse to acknowledge). Even as a fic writer, it got to the point where I'd really hesitate to put Ahsoka into a story or a chapter because I knew that if I did, I'd get a large number of comments (large being relative here) that ONLY talked about Ahsoka and not about anything else going on in that chapter. And then when I didn't put her into a chapter (you can see this in the last few chapters of Crown that I posted earlier this year), I'd get people going BUT WHERE'S AHSOKA? As a cast of thousands writer it was a combination guaranteed to drive me crazy, even if I hadn't been, at that point, pretty neutral about the character. And I started as a fan, you know? I didn't come into TCW until S4 was airing, so the show had to sell me on her, but it worked, and I was a fan. It just...went wrong in every possible way.

(The Marvel equivalent for me is Peggy Carter, and I am doing a lot of work on my end to not end up as bitter about Peggy as I am about Ahsoka, because I know it's a danger for related but not identical reasons, and I'd really rather not have that response to two characters. And mostly I have been successful, because I'm pretty careful about where I go in the fandom and I'm not picking up rabid Peggy fans the way my Rebels fic picked up rabid Ahsoka fans, since it's a much larger fandom and people who are very aggressive about Peggy are not reading a clearly labeled SteveNat fic. It's helped by the fact that these are very different canons and very different fandoms, and that I came in well after Endgame, because I know if I'd come in before I'd be way less clear-headed about it; there's a reason I avoid all the Captain Carter stuff, which makes me rabid for various reasons.) (That said I know I'm blocked by at least one Peggy fan.)

#fleurdufeu #bedlam replies #bedlam watches star wars #bedlam watches rebels

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meandmyechoes · 2 years

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A list of Ahsoka collectibles: (ramble)

Representation of each era in my collection now:

S1: plush, mcdonald toy

S3: Forces of Destiny, TVC

S7: Hot Toys, TBS, TVC, Galaxy of Adventures, plush

Rebels: None!

--------------------------

1. loungefly backpack!!

i’m not a person who spends 700 dollars on a bag they don’t have an occassion for. I don’t think I’ve ever spent that much a single article of clothing. and I regret so much passing on it because i really like that it looks well-made and attentive to details.

2. eFx replica

i think this will always stay number one but an illusive one because i don’t have funds for it. also i’m no longer bff with dave fiboni.

3. the plushes! esp. 2018 Funko

i’d looove to own all the plushes. they came out when I was away from the fandom and you can’t find them anywhere now. The modern non-exclusives are just not as cute. right now at 7, it’s still reasonable to attain a full collection. grateful my friend was into crane machine and got me the OG 2008 one. i’m willing pay $200 at most for a plush but it’s impossible unless you triple that, plus just there’s not much channels to source them. The newer one under Mando branding and Celebration is such a drop in quality their faces are just printed on so glad I found a prototype of it with an embroidered face instead. Was it trying to pay homage to the orginal? lmao

4. FoD Ahsoka

I want at least two more. one mint in box and one to repaint in clone wars style + rebody. But likewise where do you find them lol

5. koto artfx

i’ve been tallking about them for what feels like two years, anyway ever since it was first announced and now six months after its release. i’m super duper tempted everyday even just to get the Ahsoka half. I’d say half-meaningly ‘oh I will stumble upon them when we go to japan’ and i know what the chances of that are. still, not actively chasing them (actually not any on this list in ways I should) so may en find its way

6. Ahsoka transformer

XD this is a weird trinket i simply want because Ashley also has it XD

7. Rebels ahsoka hot wheels

such a cool little togrutan car~ really like the design

8. Anakin and Ahsoka van

part of hot wheels ‘greatest duo’ kind of line. saw it a long time ago on clearance at the mall regreted not getting it.

9. Rubies’ costume saber!

yeah, technically the first lightsaber toy of Ahsoka’s and just something I’ve watched on amazon from way before i’m old enough to get a credit card

10. Funko pops

attainable (except the rebels one) but more because i think it’s funny to look at how a lineup of Ahsokas all have a different shade of blue or orange. waiting forever for the Jumpsuit one to go on sale, because we don’t get any merch with her :(

11. LEGO

I’m satisfied enough with KO figures. Will buy them eventually. Recently saw on IG you can make pixel art with the Batman set and i’m tempted! Officially the Maul throne room set is worth considering too and I love the Brickhead box art

12. Her Universe

oooh i have so many HU grails but i don’t feel as compelled by the new clothes. I’d loooove the Ahsoka Leaves shirt, and other collabs with Fiboni like Plo and Ahsoka and Ahsoka on Malachor. The original Padawan hoodie is a nostalgia goal for me too. But I wouldn’t have my hopes about getting one because it’s been more than ten years. I can hope TCW’s 15th Anniversay would have something for me?

13. Little Golden Book

most likely to initiate because i have a coupon. The art is okay with plot holes but i want to support Ashley.

14. Sixth-scale figures

so Sideshow’s is a firm NO. Otherwise, I’m enthralled by customizing a concept art’ka with large head and alien eyes. should get another 2005 Shaak Ti to turn into Adult ahsoka as she should be.

15. tsum tsum

i'm not enthralled by them but honestly its a crime there's no ahsoka tsum tsum

16. MUG

remember that ugly giant-head coca mug of S7'ka under Mando branding? lol I found a factory listing for it so it's totally possible. I have a soft spot for "ugly Ahsoka" merch and would love to get it with official packaging if possible.

17. Disney Toybox

mm… they just don't speak to me, and i have many S7'ka figures already

18. Comics

ywah there was a Lucasfilm 50th cover with her and Anakin and a coming Choose Your Destiny one. Probably should get them

#about to need a toys tag #head not clear

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feltpool · 2 years

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Resonant Acts

I went into TCW S7, Ep 2 to grab a couple of screenshots, but I soon realised that the Batch’s orders never involved rescuing Echo, and what tipped me off was the phone call to Hunter from Omega.

You never noticed that, huh?

Well, until last Saturday neither had I. Although, I’ve probably only ever watched S7 twice before, and it’s a background detail that we’re not supposed to notice, much less to focus on at that point.

But don’t worry, I’ll walk you through it.

I’m going to deal with this in the order that I spotted this all in, and not in the linear order of the episode, because that makes more sense to my brain, so this is going to jump about quite a bit.

I’ll try to make sure it all makes clear sense though.

Bear in mind that most of this is based on logic and extrapolation from the few facts we have, so it’s all open to debate, and subject to change.

So, it’s the phone call that got my attention in the first place.

But Hunter doesn’t take a phone call, we’d have noticed that!

No. We don’t see him take a phone call, almost all of this happens offscreen, but you can see the shape of it and work out that it happened.

Around the 17.30 minute mark (times likely differ between watching on D+ or torrent so I’m not going to be too specific about them) Tech says he’s lost Echo’s signal and they split into two groups. Anakin and Crosshair go one way, and everyone else goes the other.

Anakin goes into a dark room filled with boxes and a droid drops down from above him and says ‘drop your weapon’

But just before it drops down, the droid says one word. Or rather, it’s synthesized voicebox picks up one word from an unsecured communication and it’s uttered out loud.

And that word is “Huntah?”

Listen to it, listen to the tone and cadence of that one small word.

It’s unmistakably Omega speaking.

So why was Hunter receiving a call from a child he didn’t even meet until TBB ep 1?

Well, let’s look at that.

Before they split up we see them all standing together and Hunter has his helmet on.

When Tech announces that he’s picked up Echo’s signal again Hunter walks up the hallway from behind him, but now he has his helmet under his arm.

They’re mid mission, so why in all hell would he have taken his helmet off?

Because he was being facetimed, and by someone who would expect him to show proper respect and remove his helmet for the call.

How can I possibly claim that?

Because Omega is, by her own admission, ‘official Kaminoan medical personnel’ and Nala Se refers to her as her ‘medical assistant’

And who is currently in the med bay on Kamino who might want to speak to Hunter about the mission he’s on? Someone who has seniority over Hunter? Someone who very likely is in no fit condition to get up and make their own call for themselves?

Marshall Commander Cody

Who says something to Hunter which does not impress him in the slightest judging from the bulldog licking piss off a nettle highly disgruntled look we can see on his face before he puts his helmet back on.

So what happened? Did Cody chew him out over something? Did he tell him to get his act together? Or just make damn sure that not only had he better make sure that Rex returned from this mission, but that if Rex came back with so much as a single scratch on his armour that he would personally make it his life’s mission to make him suffer for it?

But why would Cody do that? Rex is a capable soldier. Doesn’t Cody trust him?

Yes. But he doesn’t trust the others.

The Batch’s high death toll is subtly implied a few times.

In the previous episode with Wrecker’s ‘we always get shot down when we work with ‘regs’ combined with his complete and utter lack of knowledge about how to deal with a man with internal injuries. No matter how dense they imply him to be, there’s no way he should ever think it’d be acceptable to just pick Cody up like a sack of potatoes and sling him over his shoulder after a crash like that. Not if he’d ever been expected to care about whether a ‘reg’ survived the experience anyway.

Also in the way Rex has never heard of the squad before. Which given his length of time in service as well as being such a well known face (so to speak) as well as General Skywalker’s right hand man, seems pretty damn surprising.

Unless no one ever comes back to tell the tale of ‘the time we worked with Clone Force 99’

The exception there seems to be Commander Cody. Whose loss would be difficult to explain if he suddenly disappeared, not least to General Kenobi, but he isn’t confirmed as ever having been on a mission with them himself before. Only that he’s met Hunter previously and knows a little about their unit.

Which he rapidly sidesteps having to explain even though Rex directly asks him about them.

Cut to this episode with Hunter’s ‘What kind of ‘suicide mission’ do you have for us this time?’, because why would he be expecting a suicide mission if the men they started out with usually came back?

And it makes me wonder about not only how many ‘regs’ have died on their missions, but Nala Se’s comment to Tarkin in TBB ep 1 about how ‘five are all that remain’ when he asks how many enhanced clones they have.

Just how many did they start out with?

Anyway,

Isn’t it a little too convenient that Tech lost Echo’s signal at just the right time for Hunter to take his phone call in private?

Did Hunter know he’d be getting that call, or was Tech tipped off by someone at the other end shortly before the call came through? Because we don’t see it to know if it was a scheduled call or a total surprise. Either way, he ‘miraculously’ manages to pick the signal up again once Hunter’s call has finished and the device he has in his hand shows him that.

(If you watch the group of them checking the doorways Rex runs to a door, Wrecker runs to a door, But Tech? Tech walks. Tech only gets as far as putting his hand on the door before looking at his device and announcing that the signal is back. Convenient, eh?)

But that’s the second time Tech ‘happens’ to lose the signal. It happens once on the approach to Wat Tambor’s city and again shortly before Hunter’s call comes in.

The first time doesn’t immediately stand out as him calling a pause in the proceedings, but then neither does the second time – until you have a wider context to consider it in.

But, in a scene about 13 minutes in, the Poletec scouts have led the team towards the city to show them where they need to go. They’re standing on a high, jutting piece of rock with the tall, slender towers of the city visible in the distance.

We’re distracted by Wrecker’s fear of heights being turned into a comedy moment due to his choice of phrasing before Tech gives us a technobabble reason for losing Echo’s signal, essentially blaming it on the weather, before turning and walking away from the group while tapping away at his arm device while no one is paying him any attention, or looking over his shoulder at what he might actually be doing.

Next up is Hunter, who uses his turn at dissuasion to warn that it might be a trap and Echo may well be dead, which Rex firmly refuses to accept.

Then it’s Crosshair’s turn. He chooses to point at Rex allowing his personal feelings and guilt about Echo’s loss to interfere with his reasoning, before finishing with the comment about him being ‘just another ‘reg’’ (this is the last time we ever hear him use that term)

After the brief fight Anakin tells the Batch to sod off so he can talk to Rex alone.

Watch Hunter as they walk away, note the nod he gives Crosshair as he approaches him. Well done lad, good try, you did your best.

Now, skip forward to the next scene, at about 15.30 minutes. Not only has Tech miraculously managed to regain the signal in the middle of a dust storm even though he couldn’t find it in the far clearer conditions on that rock, but when we rejoin the group they’ve had a little time on their own. A little time to discuss their orders about the next stage of this operation, maybe?

For the moment we’ll cut back to the moment mentioned at the start, about 17.30, when Tech once more claims to have lost Echo’s signal.

They’ve only just got to the top of the tower and taken out a few guards when it vanishes, Tech lies again and reels off a plausible sounding excuse while mostly looking at the floor. Anakin suggests they split up, but no orders are given for who follows who.

So no reason is given onscreen for why Crosshair follows Anakin when everyone else goes off in the other direction. Or for why Hunter watches him go, and only stops watching him once everyone else has started running.

So let’s look at that.

Because as well as that one brief fragment of unguarded transmission picked up before the droids get blown away this scene also has the moment when Crosshair has Anakin dead in his sights. But chooses not to pull the trigger.

Even though he was supposed to.

I realise that that’s a big claim, but bear with me.

At the start of this episode is the facetime session between Anakin and Padme, all very cute and with comedy thrown in on top. But during that call Padme says, regarding Rex, ‘Trust his instincts, like you trust yours’

Watch Anakin closely here. With his Grrr face on he deflects the shot from one droid right back at it and destroying its weapon, turns and cuts down the one which had been behind him, and then, rather than turning back to cut the other droid down, instead just has time to see Crosshair in the doorway, and ducks slightly and faces away from the sparks that fly from the shot that Crosshair puts in its back.

Only once the sparks stop falling from the droid does he stand, turn, and raise his lightsabre again, because he may trust his instincts but he isn’t a total idiot, and he’s still all alone with a man he barely knows who is armed with a high velocity rifle which is pointed right at him.

A man who definitely had enough time to put a follow up shot in his back if he’d wanted to.

Especially since the Firepuncher has a rapid fire mode.

But Anakin doesn’t react.

And we know how fast Anakin’s reactions are, it’s what made him such a fantastic pod racer in the first place, he could have deflected a shot from Crosshair even at that distance, especially since he’s already in a good stance for it.

Instead he gives Crosshair another chance to make a move if he’s going to. But he doesn’t. He lowers his rifle, Anakin’s eyebrow expression clears, and he turns off his lightsabre before casually leaving the room.

I realise that none of that directly implies that Crosshair was supposed to shoot him. I’m getting to that part.

Following a brief interlude where the gang find the Echo Chamber (yes, that is how I refer to the room where he was kept), skype with Wat Tambor, and have a bunch of droids sicced on them, Anakin reappears by force blasting a bunch of droids out of his way before getting in there with his lightsabre and the fight really takes off.

No one seems surprised by him being there.

Everyone has a moment to show they’re getting in on the action before Crosshair blows the head off the droid Hunter is holding before powersliding across the room towards Rex and Anakin’s position, ending up in a position where he has his back to Tech and Hunter.

When Crosshair shoots the droid, Hunter pauses. Only briefly, but he does.

The camera cuts to Tech and Hunter standing together. Tech looks at Hunter and shakes his head, Hunter responds with an acknowledging nod.

And the only thing which occurred in the time that they weren’t present is that Crosshair failed to take a shot at Anakin.

Which also means that Anakin didn’t deflect the shot back at him, or simply cut him down.

And either way Crosshair can’t win.

If he’d fired he’d be dead, but by not doing so he becomes a pariah and gets all the blame for the failure of their mission heaped upon him. Not to mention any reprimand the team received post mission.

So which one was the outcome Hunter was hoping for? Getting rid of the Jedi, or getting rid of his team mate?

Okay, but when did this supposed ‘kill the Jedi’ order come in? And from whom?

The exact who of ‘who directly issued the order to them’ is uncertain, but it probably came from Kamino.

(I know who I’d put my money on for it, but let’s not get distracted by that right now.)

I’d say the starting orders Hunter passes to the others are for them to discover Echo’s location and then attempt to persuade Anakin and Rex to call off their retrieval mission. Only when that tactic fails does he update the team with the ‘take out any witnesses’ part. But the call Hunter receives in Purkoll tells him he’d better not do that, which is why he looks so pissed off afterwards and doesn’t carry out any further action after Cross disobeys his orders.

Why do I think this? Let’s go through it from the top

The Batch plus Rex and Anakin set out on their mission. Upon reaching Skako Minor they’re set upon by the locals and Anakin is snatched by a keeradak. Crosshair shoots it with a grapple line.

If Crosshair had shot him then it could easily have been blamed on the creature moving about too much. Or on his rifle rest (Tech) having shifted. A bad thing, terrible accident, but explainable. When they track Anakin to the Poletec’s village he shoots the Keeradak holding him to the ground in the leg with an electro dart. Again, a perfect opportunity to take him out at a distance when there’s little he could do about it and call it an accident.

But it doesn’t happen.

Because he hasn’t had any such order at that point.

No, only once the locals show them the place where Echo is located and Tech sends that info back to base, or notes it down for later, or receives an update when no one is paying him any attention, does anyone start to interfere with Rex’s mission.

Tech ‘happens’ to lose the signal immediately after the city is pointed out to them, but no amount of persuasion is going to put Rex off.

So when they’re alone in the time where Anakin is talking to Rex, Hunter makes it clear that the pair of them have to go. But carefully.

And by the time Hunter gets that phone call he already thinks that Cross is taking care of Anakin, so it’s no wonder he looks disgruntled. Because that’s going to be a hard one to explain if they have to send witnesses home afterwards.

So, was this ever intended to be a rescue? Or was it supposed to be a heist?

Locate the unique and very valuable piece of technology, get rid of all witnesses, and take it home. Gift boxed.

Because Echo is a very valuable piece of technology, and someone who is seen as being property, and he ‘belongs’ to the Kaminoans, and I can’t see any reason why they wouldn’t want him back. He’s recorded as dead, so he’s off the GAR’s books. Remove anyone who can vouch for his continued existence and no one will ever know you have him. Then you’re free to use him however you see fit. But once he’s returned home by Rex and Anakin he’s on record as still being alive. He’s accountable for. And it’s a lot harder to use and abuse him once that’s the case.

But it’s also why Sergeant ‘so two-faced that it’s literally a part of his basic character design’ Hunter offers him a place on their team. To keep him close. To keep an eye on him. To wait for everyone else to either forget he ever existed or to die in battle, and then Echo’s owner will be free to do whatever they want with him anyway.

Simple!

And I never did get those screenshots

#tcw #season 7 #tbb #echo #captain rex #anakin skywalker #omega #hunter #tech #crosshair #wrecker #commander cody #conjecture #theory #personal opinion #clones can lie #and they do #and with the smoothness of practice #even if he can't meet Anakin and Rex's eyes while he does it

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madhyanas · 3 years

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🍵 and the siege of Mandalore arc?❤❤❤

oh a serious question. well then. keep in mind i’m not great at applying critical thought to star wars so most of this is just gushing

imo contains some of the best scenes in the clone wars show as a whole. visually and thematically

maul stole the show of whatever scene he was in. as he tends to do

sam witwer KING once again delivering the sickest lines imaginable. “too late for what, for the republic to fall?” gets me in particular but his entire conversation with ahsoka pre-duel is immaculate. more maul saying weird philosophical stuff please i eat that shit up

ahsoka and maul’s duel was maaaad. i mean. wow. the choreography, dialogue, score. all of it was incredible, it’s probably the scene i go back to and rewatch the most.

i liked how ahsoka was so close to joining maul. the overlap of their ideologies and their dynamic as a whole is fascinating. wish we could have seen more of it in rebels

the animation is so CRISP. i don’t do art/animation so i’m no expert but i love the fluidity, especially in fight scenes and facial expressions. that being said i think they skimped on rex post-O66 a little i wanted more MELODRAMA thank you

mandos mandos mandos MANDOS. everyone looked slick as fuck 10/10

ms bo-katan kryze you might have earned your rights with that elevator scene. more jetpack focused strategy and battle choreography i NEED IT

i don’t even care about bo-katan that much or gar saxon at all but their whole chase/battle was dope

speaking of bkk i would like to see more of her relationship with ahsoka. mainly because the arc implied them to be allies and friends so how would that WORK lmao. even in mando s2 bkk’s got tabs on ahsoka’s whereabouts but is that a ‘friends help friends’ thing or just. strategy. hm.

listen i don’t even need to say it but the whole landing on mandalore sequence is phenomenal i think about ahsoka swooshing people out of the carriers every day

using lightsabers to slow your fall!!!!! leaving scorch marks in the metal!!!! happens in a few scenes and im in love every time

very VERY happy that ahsoka’s showdown with maul was preceded by handing jesse over to rex. it sets up the pre-duel conversation quite nicely, fits with maul’s character as he needs ahsoka to be open to discussion AND we get (unfortunately brief) jesse&rex interaction pre-O66. i don’t know that much about him but jesse’s s7 appearances are cool and they set up his post-O66 plot priority pretty well

body language in this arc is EXTREMELY nuanced. especially rex’s: the parallels between him first pulling his weapons on ahsoka a lá “find him (fives)” vs. shooting back in defence once his chip is removed,,, the same stance but mirrored,,,, good fucking food

after O66 is announced i think ahsoka’s strategising with the droids onboard the destroyer is a little... meh. i know it’s buildup to her removing rex’s chip but i didn’t get very invested in that sequence. seemed kinda s3-4 vibes if that makes sense? oh well

something @thecyndimistuff mentioned that stuck w me is how the entire arc is focused on showing how ahsoka’s such a good person for not killing the clones rather than rex dealing with O66. like i understand that ahsoka’s the closest thing tcw has to one singular protagonist but if there’s any media that would explore how a de-chipped clone feels about choosing one of his two families (i.e. the clones or ahsoka and by extension anakin) it should have been tcw. this show really should be more about the clones like that’s just false advertising

i can blame this on dbb’s voice acting but as much as i enjoyed what little we saw of rex’s emotional turmoil post-chip removal, it still fell somewhat flat. i think they could’ve gone further with it. like the whole “those men down there, my brothers” thing where ahsoka takes his helmet off is heart-wrenching yeah but... it felt like they were crescendoing to a point and just never reached it. probably because ahsoka’s response was deemed more important to the scene than what rex was feeling to prompt such an outburst in the first place

tldr; it’s a great arc and i really enjoyed it. but to be picky: just like with the show as a whole, it lacks in clones’ (specifically rex’s) characterisation

#off the top of my head that's everything #sw #sw: tcw #sw meta #ask game #ask #oloreaa #my meta

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palizinhas · 4 years

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The Clone Wars is such a good show. It made characters we thought were doomed from the beginning and made us care about them anyway, and now we’re finally seeing the final page of this part of their story.

I used to say, before S7 was announced, that if we were only ever going to get one more TCW story it should be the Siege of Mandalore. We got more than that, but even if it had only been the Siege it would have been amazing, because these final 4 episodes were everything.

#star wars #the clone wars #tcw spoilers

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bedlamsbard · 4 years

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Putting aside aesthetics and characterization (inasmuch as I can), I have been trying to logic out why Mando Ahsoka feels so different from Rebels Ahsoka (to me, personally; I know many other people feel fine about it), especially in terms of having a character who’s known in Rebels for her “I am no Jedi” line going to a character who is specifically introduced as “The Jedi” in The Mandalorian. (And who is identified as “Ahsoka Tano, Jedi Knight” on merch -- merch is merch, it’s essentially meaningless, but it’s still a choice that was made somewhere along the line.)

“Shroud of Darkness,” Rebels 2.17

“Twilight of the Apprentice,” Rebels 2.21

This is strictly Doylist and not Watsonian; I don’t care what went on in the character’s life in between Rebels and Mando; I’m trying to guess what was happening in the writers room.

I was noodling through this on Twitter, in case it looks familiar.

My first thought was Dave taking a cut scene from Rebels as canon going into Mando, something he shared on Twitter back in the lead-up to S4. Looking at this again I’m not sure this was a cut scene or a scene that he wrote that never made it into the actual script. (Certainly I can’t see how it would have fit into the episode.)

Here Bendu specifically identifies Ahsoka as “former Jedi Knight.” This is also obviously not canon, because Twitter posts aren’t canon, Dave. (Though that doesn’t mean that he might have taken it as part of his working backstory for the character anyway.)

I was then thinking about TCW and the unused TCW arcs as they existed in 2016 when this aired (with the rough guess that Rebels S2 was probably written in 2014). There are three Ahsoka arcs that were written and existed in 2016 in some form (”scripts and some artwork” is what Pablo Hidalgo says, and some pre-viz and recordings from the original Walkabout arc that were shown at a couple Celebrations), but which hadn’t made it into S6 (which came out in 2014): Ahsoka’s Walkabout (in its original form with Nix Okami instead of the Martez sisters), the Siege of Mandalore, and an arc which would have taken place between those two, “Return to the Jedi.” We know about these because of a panel from Star Wars Celebration Europe in 2016 called Ahsoka’s Untold Tales -- I was actually at this panel, but I haven’t thought about it in a while. Here’s the SW.com liveblog of it; here’s the video.

I remember hearing somewhere that the TCW team had nine seasons or so written, but can’t find the source for that number now. When S7 was made, there were obviously a lot of compromises made that we’ll never really know about, minus a tell-all memoir or documentary, which probably isn’t coming any time soon. Knowing that this Return to the Jedi arc existed, I wondered if at one point Dave had tried to get all three Ahsoka arcs into S7 before having to give one up for the Bad Batch arc (especially as we now know there’s going to be a Bad Batch TV show); it’s also entirely possible that at one point in the production process there was the possibility of a full 22 episode season floated, which would have made three Ahsoka arcs in one season less unbalanced.

I went to go look up what the Return to the Jedi arc actually was, since 2016 was a long time ago and I haven’t really thought about this panel since. My guess is that it had been intended for one Ahsoka arc per remaining season (7, 8, 9). Pablo Hidalgo says that after the Walkabout arc, Ahsoka would have stayed on Coruscant as “an under-city vigilante of some degree, helping people who can’t help themselves,” and Dave points out that he talked about this with George Lucas, as well. The Return of the Jedi arc would have involved Ahsoka finding out about a nefarious plot targeting Yoda and working with the Jedi to figure out what’s what with that -- this revealed that below the Jedi Temple was an ancient Sith shrine. (Some details of this were revealed at Star Wars Celebration Anaheim in 2015.)

Ahsoka would have been protecting the holocron vault from Darth Sidious, putting her lightsaber blade through the door while Palps shoots Force lightning up the blade.

“The whole purpose of that particular arc would have been to bring Ahsoka back. She’s not a Jedi, she doesn’t change her decision, but she gets involved in Jedi business again.”

The next Ahsoka arc and the final arc of the series would have been the Siege of Mandalore arc, which “reunites Ahsoka with the clone troopers, with Anakin.” My guess is that the end of the Return to the Jedi arc would have involved Ahsoka making the decision to go to Mandalore because the Jedi themselves couldn’t get involved in that conflict at the time (especially the emphasis in the panel that Pablo and Dave put on Ahsoka as being “a responsible person” who couldn’t ignore that the war was still going on, and because Ahsoka knew Satine). (It would be interesting to know when if this arc would have fallen before or after the Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir comics, which are based off another unmade TCW arc.) This would probably have put as much as a season between this arc and the final arc -- given TCW’s funky timeline that doesn’t mean much, but in terms of audience expectation it helps.

(also, damn, the context of the beginning of Siege of Mandalore in the original concept vs. how it actually happens in S7 is very different -- like, on the surface identical but the emotions involved are totally different.)

Before going into the next part of the panel (post-war), Pablo Hidalgo adds “We consider it to have happened and that’s how we inform the writing in Rebels, because that’s the history that these characters carry in their heads.”

So going into Rebels, the writing team was working with the background that Ahsoka had not only left the Jedi Order once, in “The Wrong Jedi,” but had reinforced her decision not to go back to the Jedi by not returning to the Order during the Return to the Jedi arc. That explains why in Rebels she’s so adamant about not being a Jedi or being in the Order; it’s a decision that she has made not once, but twice.

Fast forward four years to 2020, where we have the Siege of Mandalore arc in S7.

It’s heavily implied that Ahsoka was planning to go back to the Order after the end of the war, and in fact Yoda treats her as such.

Now, there’s no way to know if this exchange was in the original Siege of Mandalore scripts short of those being released at some point (which is possible but seems unlikely when the character is still in play), but because of the way S7 plays out there is no way to put the Return to the Jedi arc back into the story, which means all the emotional context and Ahsoka doubling down on not returning to the Order is thrown out of the window. That’s a fair chunk of backstory to take into the Rebels writers room.

(It should also be noted that presumably E.K. Johnston wrote the Ahsoka novel with the assumption that that arc was still part of Ahsoka’s working canon, though she may not have seen scripts for it; I feel like I read somewhere that she had seen scripts for the original version of the Siege of Mandalore, which changed quite a lot between original concept and the eventual 2020 version, as is evident from the novel vs the show.)

Going into The Mandalorian, then, Dave Filoni is not only working without a writers room (as Mando has only had two writers, Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau), but working with an entirely different continuity than what the Rebels writers room was working with.

Trying to backtrack when various scripts were written is an exercise in futility to some extent; I usually guess anywhere from a year to two years out from when the shows air. (I seem to remember that around this time in 2016 it came out that Katee Sackhoff was doing something for Disney, which ended up being the recording for Bo-Katan in Rebels S4, which wouldn’t air for another year, but don’t quote me on these dates.) Dave ends the panel by saying that “After the season 2 finale for Rebels I was very adamant that that was it for Ahsoka...in Rebels...but after this reaction it might just be possible...it might be possible to see her again. She might have something to do. Maybe.” (For those trying to run dates in their heads: the con was in July 2016, the season 2 finale aired in March 2016, WBW aired in February 2018.) My guess is that they hadn’t recorded for that part of S4 yet (and S4 is so weirdly paced that I have questions about how it was made), but that the initial scripts for S4 had already been written at this point.

Looking back at the Star Wars Celebration Chicago 2019 TCW panel where Ashley Eckstein talks about getting the news about TCW S7 from Dee Bradley Baker (rather than from Dave Filoni, and hoo boy is this uncomfortable to watch knowing that the script for “The Jedi” had almost certainly been written and Dave may have already made the decision not to talk to Ashley about it), there’s still not like...a clear way to tell when that happened. Except that Dee talks about “wine tasting with the Rebels,” which likely puts it back when Rebels S4 was either still actively airing (2017-2018) or before it had wrapped filming (2017). (I actually vaguely remember seeing pictures from this wine tasting but I can’t remember whose twitter it was on and going to look feels creepy.) Probably the scripts weren’t fully revised at that point but they may have been -- still, this was certainly after S2 and could potentially be before S4 had been fully finalized. We got the TCW renewal announcement in 2019, but the animation wasn’t fully completed yet so didn’t get more than that teaser trailer. This is only important insofar as it involves which set of backstory was being used for WBW Ahsoka, an episode that Dave Filoni wrote and co-directed. (Honestly? I think Mando Ahsoka matches okay with WBW Ahsoka but is a little off Rebels S2 Ahsoka, but that’s off my memory of WBW, an episode I refuse to rewatch.) Certainly with the epilogue he knew he was setting up for something else.

ETA: I FORGOT AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS TIMELINE AND THAT’S THE RISE OF SKYWALKER because I try not to think about TROS, frankly, but as we may remember Ahsoka is included in the “be with me” scene in the final confrontation. This always struck me as weird given the “I am no Jedi” thing from Rebels, but she’s the most well-known female Force-user so I had just mentally written it off as easy shorthand and JJ Abrams being lazy about it. HOWEVER, presumably JJ talked to Dave about which prequel era Jedi to include (there’s a note in one of the previous SWC liveblogs about Rian Johnson being in the Rebels writers room at some point). TROS came out in December 2019, I can’t recall exactly when they did the voiceovers for that scene (if anyone has ever mentioned it), but it was probably fairly late in the process since I believe that there were still edits being made up until fairly soon before the premiere. (I have a completely different theory that the Lego Star Wars Holiday Special from this year was written off an earlier version of TROS.) If Dave had already moved towards making Ahsoka more inclined towards the Jedi, with a full-on return to calling herself one regardless of the existence of the Order (as Mando implies), then her inclusion here makes a LOT more sense than it did a year ago.

Anyway this is all very conspiracy theorist, but it does explain something that was puzzling me: Rebels S2 Ahsoka and Mando Ahsoka (as well as TCW S7 Ahsoka and potentially Rebels S4 Ahsoka) were written off slightly different backstories which differed in one very key thing: how committed Ahsoka was to no longer being a Jedi.

Now, this sort of thing happens all the time in anything with an ongoing continuity; obviously TCW makes major changes to how viewers might read or write Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader in RotS or the OT. I was just trying to narrow it down in this particular case because until I started thinking about it I had assumed that it was all being written off the same assumed backstory. And many people read Ahsoka differently in Mando than I did or found her perfectly in character, this was for me to track references down about something that was bothering me in hopes of an explanation that would satisfy me.

#bedlam watches the mandalorian #bedlam watches tcw #bedlam watches rebels #mando the jedi #btw this is the same sort of thing I do for academic work this stuff is just easier because I remember it better #and can google it which I usually can't for scholarship

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