#drazenko rogare

[thevelaryons]

Alyn's curious encounters

Maester Bendamure’s Six Times to Sea: Being an Account of the Great Voyages of Alyn Oakenfist remains the most complete and authoritative source, though the vulgar accounts of Lord Alyn’s life called Hard as Oak and Bastard Born are colorful and engrossing in their ways, albeit unreliable.

Artist: Jota Saraiva (deviantart/instagram)

#valyrianscrolls #asoiaf #alyn velaryon #racallio ryndoon #drazenko rogare #lyonel hightower #alyn & racallio #alyn & drazenko #alyn & lyonel #art #gay gay homosex- *gunshots*

[atopvisenyashill]

The Dornish Prince Who United The Seven Kingdoms

aka my “who the hell was Myriah and Maron’s father” meta

Like many of the ruling princes and princesses of Dorne, we have very little information to go on when trying to piece together this Unnamed Prince of Dorne. It’s equal parts odd and frustrating, because this Unnamed Prince was one of the most important figures in Westerosi history and yet we don’t have a birth date, ascension date, marriage information, birth dates for his children, a death date, or even a name.

And yet this is the man who stopped Daeron the Young Dragon’s conquest of Dorne only to successfully negotiate a cease fire between Dorne and the Six Kingdoms as well as a marriage contract for his heir and daughter Myriah with Baelor the Blessed. His influence lives on in his son, Maron, who furthered his father’s peace negotiations by meeting with Daeron II and agreeing to enter the Seven Kingdoms at last - but with a Targaryen bride and more than a few concessions. Daeron’s shortsightedness in dealing with Dorne leads directly to the Blackfyre Rebellions but you can’t deny that Maron at least was a shrewd negotiator because he and his people came out of this negotiation having given up very little. Myriah, for her part, is a well loved Queen despite racism in Westeros against the Dornish, and goes on to have several children with Daeron, who she seemed to love.

So…who the hell was Maron and Myriah’s father? Well, looking at the series proper, the world of ice and fire, and fire & blood, I’ve come up with two theories on him.

Theory One: The Marence Martell Theory

Marence is the son of Aliandra and Drazenko (or possibly, he’s the son of a second husband).

Theory Two: The Qyle Martell Theory

Qyle, the younger brother of Aliandra and only son of Qoren Martell, takes the principality when Aliandra dies childless.

Let’s delve in…

The Facts

Aliandra Nymeros Martell is born in 115 AC so any siblings must be born after this date.

Aliandra's younger brother brother Qyle (and their younger sister Coryanne) is old enough to disapprove of Aliandra's flirtation with Alyn Velaryon in 133 AC.

Aliandra and Drazenko Rogare married during the Lysene Spring 134.

Drazenko died in 135 under suspicious circumstances (it's because his family was acting up see: The Fall of the House of Rogare)

Now a little bit of speculation here...

The Small Council is desperate to marry off Baela in 132 AC (when Aliandra is 17) bc she’s unruly and mean and does hot girl shit, so they’re not gonna betroth her to someone much younger than her, because they need this girl to get laid and calm down.

Qyle is brought up as a potential match. If Aliandra is 17, he could very well be 16, or near enough, and an option for her to marry. This would make his birth year 116 and make him 42 at the Submission of Sunspear.

If Marence is Aliandra's only child by Drazenko, born in 135 AC, it would make him 23 during the Submission of Sunspear.

If The Unnamed Prince of Dorne Is Marence Nymeros Martell

This is interesting for a few reasons. For one thing, it puts Marence of an age with Aegon IV, who was also born in 135 AC during the Lysene Spring as well. It makes sense that Baelor, with his cousin Aemon already on his mind due to his captivity, would see a man roughly the same age as one of his male cousins, and think of Aegon's recently born son, Daeron II, as the key to smoothing things over.

Baelor eschews marriage, not just with his sisters, but in general, and while we don’t have his POV to see what he was thinking about an heir (if he was even thinking of it), given the precedent of uncles and younger brothers usurping female Targaryens, and Baelor’s own *waves at the Maidenvault* nonsense about women, it seems likely Baelor viewed his uncle as his heir and not Daena the Defiant, and thus betrothing the first born son of Viserys’ first born son to Myriah, Marence’s first born daughter, ties everything together neatly.

For Marence’s part, this plan is incredibly risky. Daeron and Myriah are around 7 and a lot can change in the ten years it will take for Myriah to reach the age of majority. Maron could die, and there’s no guarantee Marence can have another child before he himself dies. Myriah could die and throw the whole plan into question. Marence’s people did just torture the everloving hell out of Aemon (and while the Wyl's are a bit notorious for being super violent towards invading forces, we have no idea whether Marence encouraged that the way Aliandra and Deria do, or if he discouraged it the way Nymor does), and Viserys might not be too fond of the plan. But this is Aliandra’s son. This is the son of a goddamn Rogare. High risk plans with little hope of succeeding are their lifeblood and it's clearly a chance that may be worth taking if he wants to finally calm down the warring.

And being Aliandra's son, it's even possible she told him stories about her relationship with Alyn (hopefully not the sexy ones but who knows). Perhaps he's thinking that this might work out, if Baelor can come here and forgive him after they tortured Aemon and killed The Young Dragon, if his mother could find something worth respecting in Alyn. It's a young man's dream for a better, less violent future for his people and for his young children.

If Marence is the Prince, it also means he dies pretty young. Maron is ruling Prince by 174 AC, so even if we push the death date to have happened the very first month of 174 AC, it means Marence is just 39 years old when he passes. He lives long enough to send his daughter to an unknown fate in a still hostile kingdom, to see Baelor die, Viserys II die, and Aegon the Unworthy take the throne and make overtures at continued war while Mariah is essentially a hostage in King's Landing, and now, with only his young son Maron to protect her and to protect Dorne. A wild, risky life with a sad, early death; just like his mother Aliandra.

If The Unnamed Prince of Dorne Is Qyle Nymeros Martell

Firstly, if it's Qyle, I can 100% see why he kills Daeron I and tortures Aemon; we already know he dislikes the other kingdoms of Westeros and after spending years being forced to make nice because of Aliandra, who dies childless and passes the principality to him, an older, hardened Qyle may decide there is no point in trying to make peace with these people. He takes a page out of his ancestor Meria's book and decides to fight dirty and to the last man. Why on Earth would he trust them, why on Earth would he confine himself to the rules of their game? Even without dragons, these people insist on destroying his home so he will fight them until his last breath.

And then this deeply pious seventeen year old (the same age as Aliandra when the principality passed to her!) shows up barefoot with all the hostages who are mostly unharmed and asks to make peace. And now Qyle is approaching middle age (being like 44 at this point), looking at this very odd mirror to his deceased older sister, who is asking him to put aside all anger. There's no charming flirtation or coy words like what Alyn offered Aliandra nor is there the threat of violence and subjugation like what Daeron offered just a few years before. It's a risk yes, but when faced with this bloody-footed seventeen year old and the release of the hostages, it might seem like a risk that's worth taking.

And again, if we push his death date to the first month of 174 AC, it means Qyle is 58 years old. Hardly old by our years, but it's more than several other notable rulers get in ASOIAF. Old enough to have seen relations with the Iron Throne go up and down and when he dies, the future is uncertain yes, but he's spent his life trying to make things better in the only ways he knows how.

SO THAT'S THE UNNAMED PRINCE OF DORNE.

I think both scenarios are interesting and they both seem likely! I hope one day we know a little bit more about this elusive character, as well as about Myriah and Maron - did Myriah resent the marriage her father arranged for her? Did she resent having to give up her claim to the principality or did she see this as a chance to gain further power? Clearly, Maron believed in continued peace making through marriage because he agreed to marry Daenerys as an adult; how close was he to his father then? Was he devastated by his father's death? Did he love Myriah and write to her the way Oberyn and Doran loved Elia? If he is Qyle, and older when he has children, does this impact how he sees them? And if he's Marence instead, and had children young-ish, does that impact their relationship? How does he even die???

Much to think about and I hope we get concrete answers one day!

#valyrianscrolls #house martell #myriah martell #maron martell #aliandra martell #qyle martell #drazenko rogare #a song of ice and fire #qoren martell #maron nymeros martell #qyle nymeros martell #aliandra nymeros martell #marence martell #marence nymeros martell #if you type the name martell enough times it stops looking like a word lmao #dorne #getting on my soap box

[sarcasticsweetlara]

How House Rogare affected Larra's life and views and Westeros.

Obviously, House Rogare was greatly wealthy and full of clever people, they owned a bank and made trade agreements not only with the Targaryens but with the Martells as well, though obviously Aliandra did not have children with Drazenko as she must surely have married again after his death, maybe to a Wyl in order to show her subjects that Dorne will not bow to the Targaryens.

Larra was the youngest of Lysandro's trueborn children, and from what we know about all her legitimate siblings is that they were good warriors and seemed to value knowledge as Larra's oldest sister Marra owned many books and a library.

Even after the Lysene Spring it seemed Larra's brother Moredo and her sisters Marra and Lysara were fine and wealthy enough to receive Larra in her last days before her death.

I will not say they were pure with no ulterior motives, but that they were clever with their business.

Viserys' marriage with Larra emphasized they were all in with the Valyrian Customs as after all they had involved themselves not only through marriage but by finances.

Daeron the Young Dragon knew about the marriage of his uncle Viserys with Larra and at some point his plan was to do something similar and wed a wealthy noble either from Lys or Braavos (of Valyrian descent) whose family would not represent a threat to Westeros but still powerful enough to aid them in wars, just like Larra and her family did in the beginning; or who knows, maybe wed a Rogare but making it known he would not tolerate being fooled.

...

I think maybe their sigil was a mermaid to symbolize their international trade and their alluring courtesans' uncommon appearance, as they were said to have white blond hair, which is said to be rare even among Valyrians.

Larra herself had a willowy appearance as well as white blonde hair alongside blue-violet eyes probably. This means that among the Lyseni the Rogares were quite unique.

Larra knew she was in a foreign land in which they were not exactly patient with foreigners, and as I said before, Valyrian seems to have had no influence nor similarities with the Westerosi Language and its dialects are of course different to it as well.

We don't know the details of her whole relationship with Viserys, but we know that life in King's Landing must have been really hard for her to drive her away in the end, like it happened with Mellario of Norvos.

...

The Rogares raised Larra in a completely different way of how she was expected to behave in Westeros and the maesters may have ignored her subtle ways of assimilating and seen her retaining of her Lysene side as something bad thus making her more unpopular, just like they did with her mother-in-law Rhaenyra.

In a certain way Larra reminds me of Catherine de' Medici in that their lives were deeply marked by scandals and that at first both courts disliked them and that both of them married second sons who no one expected to become monarchs, if Larra had stayed in King's Landing she probably would have risen and helped her children, as well as introduce a new fashion and maybe Aegon IV would not have become so rotten, Aemon would not have felt he needed to make up for his brother's acts and married and had kids and Naerys would have been happier and maybe have had a better marriage.

Larra as a queen would have been so iconic and it would have helped later with the marriages done at different times of her great-great-grandsons Valarr and Daeron had with Kiera of Tyrosh and even make the court more inclusive and progressive, granted, it would have taken time but it could have worked.

As queen she could have created her own court, a difference between being the queen consort to being the wife of the Hand of the King (though we can say obviously that for a while as Aegon III seemed to have been absent as king, Viserys and Larra were the unofficial "First" Lord and "First" Lady of the Realm) and involved herself more with the Velaryons, Celtigars and Rhaena's daughters, as well as the old allies of the Blacks and slowly gain her own allies and loyalists. Larra's own father Lysandro reminds me of Piero di Cosimo de' Medici, Larra's intelligence helping Viserys II would have made the Kingdom prosper.

As a queen Larra's words would have had more weight and thus gained more respect and truly discipline Aegon IV in a more efficient way than Viserys did, and by having her mother by her side Naerys' life could have been calmer, Naerys could have inherited the crown Larra would have used, and maybe even name a surviving child of hers after Larra. Naerys would have loved wearing the crown of her mother frequently to show she was proud of the woman who gave birth to her, and that Westeros owed a lot to Larra Rogare as she had been first the Second Lady of the Realm as the wife to the Hand of the King and later the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms who had been so resilient through all her life in King's Landing.

...

Maybe Larra did try to keep in touch with her children but failed to keep going in the end.

For those who say Larra is a random person who appears out of nowhere, remember her family is the reason Viserys was able to get back to Westeros, it may have been far away from ideal circumstances but in the end it helped House Targaryen with making alliances with Essosi and reaffirm their Valyrian otherness; maybe in another world Viserys could have traveled willingly as a man to Lys and met Larra there and then get married under both a Lysene ceremony and a Westerosi Faith of the Seven ceremony.

With this marriage House Targaryen was showing Essos they could have more unions in the future if they were willing to support the Targaryen monarchs as well.

Also, this way the Rogares helped the Targaryens in not having to rely ever again on certain family from Oldtown as the Rogare Bank was wealthier, thus showing House Targaryen would not be lenient with them, and Lotho, Larra's brother founded the Bank of Oldtown.

Whether you like Larra Rogare or not, we can not deny that her existence does influence House Targaryen and Westeros, and if she had been able allowed to still communicate with and visit her children, things could have been vastly different. Her death also impacted her family as they had now officially lost her without any hope and she had been buried away in Lys, and now they could only hold on to the memories Larra had left them, and in the case of her children to paintings, the stories of Viserys II, Aegon III and Daenaera and maybe the own recordings of Larra.

House Rogare may have received and given refuge to Aegon IV and Aerion, as well as also presented them Rohanne and Kiera as possible brides for Daemon Waters and Valarr and Daeron Targaryen (son of Maekar I and Dyanna), as most likely they had Valyrian blood that may have or not have been Rogare blood; also, maybe one or the two of Larra's sisters Marra or Lysara married into Westerosi nobility to gain more leverage, and Marra probably was the great-grandmother of Aelinor Penrose, while Lysara was probably wed to a Velaryon, Moredo to Bethany Hightower probably as Samantha Tarly did not try to do anything to them, and Drako Rogare probably was wed to Ellyn Baratheon (as she is not mentioned living in Westeros when the fates of her sisters are revealed) in an effort to bind themselves together, and the Rogares also could have presented Serenei to Aegon The Unworthy as an affair as Serenei could have ended up living with the part of the Rogare family that had been sent to the Brother Perfumed Garden.

Aerys II maybe could have also hoped to wed a Rogare to his son Rhaegar at first.

House Rogare does have a big impact on the story.

#house rogare #larra rogare #awoiaf lys #marra rogare #lys #valyrianscrolls #valyriansource #drazenko rogare #lysara rogare #old valyria #moredo rogare #larra x viserys ii #viserys ii x larra #larra x viserys #viserys x larra #larra rogare x viserys ii targaryen #house targaryen #fire and blood vol.2 #asoiaf theories #larra rogare was a good mother but was prevented of taking her children with her #naerys did not wear her crown as penitence #drako rogare

[princessnysar]

Princess Aliandra at the wedding of her younger sister princess Coryanne to Quilan Qorgyle in 139 ac 

#house martell #House Qorgyle #quilan qorgyle #aliandra martell #coryanne martell #Aliandra is mother of twins Aliandre and Ariana who father is Drazenko Rogare

[goodqueenaly]

What do you think the narrative significance is of Viserys (Rhaenyra’s son) egg not hatching, if there is any at all? I know it’s not guaranteed for an egg to hatch, but it seems strange for Rhaenyra’s kids to go 4 for 5 on that.

Number one, it exacerbates the tension between the black and green factions in the last decade of King Viserys I’s reign. The green faction (and those sympathetic to it) had already used dragon hatching, or rather the presumed lack thereof, as a means of undermining Rhaenyra’s sons by (ostensibly) Laenor Velaryon, as “[t]hose who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra’s sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch”. These predictions had obviously not materialized, but young Prince Viserys and his unhatched egg allowed a new opportunity for doomsaying declarations on the part of the green faction. Even though Viserys (and his brother Prince Aegon the Younger) were too obviously Daemon’s sons to question their paternity, the green faction could still take the fact that Viserys’ egg had not hatched “for an ill omen”, and “not [be] shy about saying as much”.  In the near-constant jockeying for position between the black and green factions in the lead-up to the Dance, the distribution of dragons among the various members of each faction created a number of opportunities for conflict and sniping; with the black faction having, at least on paper, the draconic numerical advantage at King Viserys’ death, the fact that his namesake had not hatched a dragon gave the green faction one chance to cast doubts on its rival faction.

Number two, it provides a practical reason as to why the youngest sons of Rhaenyra were separated, and how Viserys ended up a captive and exile in Lys for several years. Although the future King Aegon III had never ridden his dragon prior to the assault on the boys’ transport (and never would again, since Stormcloud died of its wounds immediately after Aegon’s return to Dragonstone), Viserys could not attempt the same flight without a dragon of his own. Instead, and in a display of the canniness which would mark his adult life, Viserys “hid his dragon’s egg and changed into ragged, salt-stained clothing, pretending to be no more than a common ship’s boy” - a trick only possible (and albeit ultimately not successfully) because a dragon’s egg was far easier to hide than a living dragon (especially one which might have been several years old by that point). Too, while Viserys was taken prisoner and kept as a prisoner by several successive Lysene power players, I think his presence in Lys was successfully kept quiet, at least in terms of Westerosi knowledge, in part because Viserys had no dragon to identify himself too clearly as a lost Targaryen. (Compare, say, the rumors that have reached Westeros, even in garbled fashion, about Dany and her dragons, from much farther away than Viserys’ exile in Lys.) A Valyrian-looking boy, in a city famed for the Valyrian looks of its populace, would attract far less notice on the international stage than a prince with a living dragon at his side, especially by those interested in keeping him hidden (as Sharako Lohar and Bambarro Bazanne had been, and to a lesser extent the Rogares). In turn, Drazenko Rogare and Alyn Velaryon could engineer the dramatic reveal of Viserys as a major surprise, returned to his brother’s court seemingly from the dead. 

Number three, it establishes a source of difference, even opposition between the two brothers. Where the now-King Aegon III had developed an intense dislike and fear of dragons - given his harrowing escape on Stormcloud and his witness to mother’s death when she was burned and devoured by Sunfyre - the future King Viserys II had no such qualms. Having grown up in an environment where draconic presence was normalized, indeed expected (but, perhaps crucially, never experienced by Viserys directly) and then spent the majority of the Dance (and its immediate aftermath) in a dragonless Lysene exile, Viserys had not endured the same dragon-based horrors suffered by his brother. Consequently, I think Viserys was far more willing to encourage the re-introduction and fostering of dragons and dragonriding, as a sort of Targaryen inheritance which he himself had never received but which held, as Gyldayn notes with respect to Viserys and his egg, “great meaning for him”. Viserys in turn would use his “best efforts” to “persuade his brother the king to come see his sister fly” after Rhaena took to the skies on Morning; Viserys would “gr[o]w most wroth” after “Aegon commanded that no dragon’s eggs were to be allowed in his castle” and “[refuse] to speak to King Aegon for a moon’s turn; Viserys would, later in his brother’s reign advise the king to “sen[d] away for nine mages from Essos, attempting to use their arts to kindle a clutch of eggs” (and, of course, Viserys would give his sons their own eggs in the cradle). If Aegon III was the Dragonbane, largely (if not absolutely) antagonistic toward dragons following the Dance, Viserys was, perhaps, the Dragonfriend, eager to return to the seemingly ideal draconic state of affairs he himself had only known secondhand as a boy.

Number four, it allows the author, should he so choose, to link the future Viserys II to the decline and extinction of the dragons (and/or to be popularly linked as such). Of course Viserys was not the only Targaryen, even prior to 153 AC, not to have an egg hatch; after all, young Maelor only had an egg rather than the dragons hatched by his twin elder siblings. (Indeed, the Targaryens had pursued their cradle egg initiative so sporadically that it is virtually impossible to develop any real conclusions about when dragons would and would not hatch in such circumstances.) Nevertheless, because Viserys so openly lacked a dragon despite having an egg from babyhood, Viserys might have served as something of a portent of disaster for the Targaryens and their dragons, especially as the latter entered terminal decline and became extinct. Would Viserys have been viewed (especially by his zealous daughter and pious son Aemon) as, perhaps, part of the Seven’s punishment for the Targaryens’ heretical incest and Doctrine of Exceptionalism - this son of an uncle and niece, grandson and great-grandson of brother-sister unions, subsequently damned by the gods for his heritage? Would those lingering green supporters (including the allies of the various “false Daeron” claimants and the seemingly dragon-backed Alys Rivers at Harrenhal) argue that Viserys’ dragonlessness was a sign that his branch of the family was unfit to rule (especially if any of those “false Daeron” claimants received, say, Maelor’s dragon egg, and especially if that egg hatched)? Did any part of Viserys’ potential desire for power in his own right (which I think led him to murder his nephew Baelor and assume the crown himself) stem from his lack of a dragon - that he had been so tantalizingly close to the draconic glory of his ancestors without ever grasping that glory himself, that he could have remade the realm with peace and justice if only he had had a dragon (as his descendant Aegon V would later bemoan), that he needed to take as much executive power as he could because only he could restore the dragons and bring the dynasty back to its Jaehaerys I golden age? Again, none of this is to say GRRM will in fact bring up these points, but Viserys’ lack of a dragon allows for exploration to any of these points. 

#asoiaf meta #viserys ii targaryen #dragons

[twoiafart]

Alyn Velaryon and Aliandra Martell Artwork by Martina Fačková

Lord Alyn sailed on to Oldtown again, then to Dorne and Sunspear where Princess Aliandra was most welcoming. It was there that he was approached by Drazenko Rogare, an envoy from Lys, and the very next day Lord Alyn set sail for Lys.

#asoiaf art #alyn velaryon #aliandra martell #martina fackova

[greenbloods]

everybody's speculating on where hotd will end and youd think that a logical stopping point would be aegon and viserys meeting on the beachhead of kings landing because it perfectly encapsulates the tragedy and futility of the war and how it only leaves behind broken boys but youd be WRONG. manifesting an entire season of lysene spring court politics with my mind i want to see every aspect of the rogare banking crisis in excruciating detail. this is no longer a high fantasy tragedy it's a black comedy court drama where we follow the marvelous misadventures of lysandro and drazenko rogare as they discover the magical world of fractional reserve manipulation

#hotd spoilers #f&b spoilers #house of the dragon

[qanedanegros]

semi-plotted starter for @the-rogue-dragon

It happened to every young woman or young man’s life. More quickly, when one was of noble stock, the coming of age when one’s parents could marry them off to the highest bidder. The continuation of a bloodline. Sometimes, if fate felt generous, love could blossom, and they could make a happier union. More often than not, duties are done, and heirs are produced, leaving the couple to tolerate the other—perhaps father more bastards. However, Neera could break that chain with how her father had allowed a tour for her. It did not help that he might have orchestrated a rumor about her beauty and blood tracing back to Old Valyria. Lysandro had ensured to send ravens to all the worthy families of Westeros.

The first on her tour was no other than King’s Landing. It was no secret why Father had chosen this as the first stop. This was his goal. The Targaryens live here with their dragons. A union between her and one of them would mean stronger connections to the Lys Bank, which rivaled the Iron Bank in Braavos. For them? Dragons. Her father would say he had ties to the family and whatever else. He would have the strength to keep his enemies at bay if he had them.

Neera cared little. Lysandro's pride prevented him from fulfilling his promise to her, even though they were noticed by wealthy individuals in Lys. They were beneath her. Beneath them. They arrived at this moment after their journey on the ship, along with her father, stepmother, performers, singers, and others hired to impress King Jaehaerys. What a first impression it would be. “You should be honored, Neera. Not many get the chance to have a tour to find themselves a husband.” Her stepmother spoke while some men helped the young girl into the silver palanquin that was filled with satin cushions. “A Targaryen Prince. Do try to impress the boy..” “Yes, stepmother..” Neera felt her cheeks turn red as she caught sight of the performer who would go before them, telling the smallfolk who she was. Her stepmother and father soon joined her in the palanquin, and suddenly, everything started too quickly. “Uncle Drazenko said there’s a young lord in Dorne who would give me any Sand Steed that I wish should I marry him.” She spoke while peeking out the curtain of the palanquin. “Silly girl, why have a horse when you can have a dragon?” Lysandro chuckled while Neera sunk back into the cushions. Perhaps she would melt into them and never be found once they arrived at the castle. Jaehaerys watched from the balcony with an amused expression. He had caught sight of the Lys ship when he had taken Vermithor for an early morning flight. However, it hadn’t prepared him for the parade that seemed to be traveling his streets. The music and performers would undoubtedly lift the spirits of the smallfolk, but still, he wasn’t sure if this would be a match. He had agreed to have the Rogare family stop on their tour here to see if there was potential for a match. Daemon was of age, but he didn’t want to push. Pushing the prince never ended well. The young prince, who was freshly knighted, always carried Dark Sister on his hip. Yet, marriage was something not often discussed. He had made no promises to the visiting family. Jaehaerys had known that his wife already had a potential match for their grandson, and he wasn’t sure how Daemon would feel about it. Perhaps this would be a match. “All this fuss for Daemon. Let’s hope it does not go to his head..” He chuckled as he continued to listen to the music that was filling the streets of King’s Landing.

#the-rogue-dragon #ɴᴇᴇʀᴀ ᴏꜰ ʟʏꜱ

[babaroqa]

just found out that there is a character called Drazenko Rogare in asoiaf extended universe and literally why how is that related to the names of other characters from lys, none of whom have slavic names? also i obviously pronounce that name as Draženko but how is an english-speaking native person supposed to pronounce it? especially given the lack of the letter ž

#horrible no good slavic names in fantasy #idk i really hate this trend #and when english-speaking writers use other lesser known languages as placeholders for their fantasy languages #and i mean asoiaf especially because all the names are so weirdly spelled i mean even jaime to some lesser extent #and then there's a whole plain draženko without the ž which doesn't exist in the english alphabet #i guess that was weird enough on its own #no matter that literally that's the name of someone's father or grandfather or something

[vhgr]

immediate family of myrsini peake.

house peake.

a noble house of the reach traced back to the first men. lord uther peake was married to prunella celtigar, a noble woman of valyrian origin; a successful match made by queen alysanne targaryen. it is possible that the following ruling lords of house peake cultivated their patriarchal insistence from uther peake himself, ursen included. however, unlike his older brother who was bound by duty, and gedmund who was much younger than both of them, he had always been able to raise his neck a little higher when it came to freedom of choice. many a maiden and experienced woman he had bedded in his youth, one of which being irene of lys; a young woman who had found her purpose in the performing acts, brown of hair and lilac-eyed. it was the rumours of pre-marital coitus—and her family's wealth—which allowed the two to marry, only a month after irene and her troupe had arrived in the reach.

house rogare.

a noble house of lys the lovely, dedicated to the work of banking. irene rogare is a younger sister to the head of the family, lysandro rogare and drazenko rogare, later prince consort of dorne. finding little room for herself in the family business, irene instead entertained singing, dancing and acting, like many did on lys. it wasn't long before she had to travel away from her family with a troupe, though she did not cut ties with her brothers. even after her sudden marriage to ursen peake, irene would often write to her brothers, even visiting whenever possible, despite her husband's reluctance.

#* ──── 𝐦𝐲𝐫𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐢 » character study . #* ──── 𝐦𝐲𝐫𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐢 » house of the dragon verse .

[dornedaily]

Hi there! Not sure if you've been asked this before, but I'm confused about Dorne's princess/prince titles. Doran is a prince but his wife, Mellario, was never recognized as princess consort. Is because she's a foreign wife? So, what if Oberyn got married Cersei? She woulnd't be his princess consort? Idk, sometimes Dorne seems more like a patriarchal society.

@warsofasoiaf​ and @goodqueenaly​ have answered part of your question in this post :)

I’d add to their points that Nymeria named her husband Mors Prince of Dorne when they married.

The flames lit the coast for fifty leagues as hundreds of leaking, listing hulks were put to the torch and turned to ash; in the light of their burning, Princess Nymeria named Mors Martell the Prince of Dorne, in the Rhoynish style, asserting his dominion over [the region]. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

The role distribution between Nymeria and her husbands seems to be more clearly delimited. It is Nymeria first, her husbands second. Yet they are also said to be consorts. However, we can assume that Mors played a bigger role than Lord Uller or Lord Davos Dayne (Nymeria’s other two husbands) given his active and leading part in Nymeria’s war. The two were probably on a equal footing, or so we’re led to think so.

Nymeria herself remained the unquestioned ruler of Dorne for almost twentyseven years, her husbands serving only as counselors and consorts. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

No fewer than six conquered kings were sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria and her prince, until only the greatest of their foes remained. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)

The title of Prince/Princess Consort remained in use and did not disappear over time:

The wife of King Viserys II Targaryen [...] was the Lady Larra Rogare of Lys. [...] Her father, Lysandro Rogare, was the head of a wealthy banking family whose power waxed even greater following the alliance to the Targaryens. Lysandro assumed the style of First Magister for Life, and men spoke of him as Lysandro the Magnificent. But he and his brother Drazenko, the Prince Consort of Dorne, died within a day of one another, beginning the precipitous fall of the Rogares both in Lys and the Seven Kingdoms. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: The Quarrelsome Daughters: Myr, Lys and Tyrosh)

It was when I visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. (Oberyn Martell - A Storm of Swords, Tyrion V)

Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. (A Feast For Crows, The Queenmaker)

Unless Prince Doran had attainted her, she remained the lawful heir to Sunspear; the man who married her would one day rule Dorne by her side. Arianne could only pray that her rescuer would prove younger than the greybeards her father had offered her over the years. "I want a consort with teeth," she had told him when she refused the last. (A Feast For Crows, The Princess in the Tower)

"Because I knew that you would spurn him. I had to be seen to try to find a consort for you once you'd reached a certain age, else it would have raised suspicions, but I dared not bring you any man you might accept.“ (Doran Martell - A Feast For Crows, The Princess in the Tower)

Elia was her cousin, but half a child, and Daemon Sand... things had never been the same between her and the Bastard of Godsgrace after her father refused his offer for her hand. He was a boy then, and bastard born, no fit consort for a princess of Dorne, he should have known better. (The Winds of Winter - Arianne I)

The question thus becomes whether or not there is a tradition of Dorne’s ruler naming his/her spouse Prince/Princess consort or if that title is automatically granted. In the aforementioned post, @goodqueenaly​ points out that Aliandra Martell named her husband Drazenko Rogare Prince Consort. But at the same time, we’re told numerous times that Arianne’s husband will be her consort, no matter what. So what is it?

My guess is that there is indeed a tradition of naming the spouse Prince/Princess Consort, even though the title seems to be a given and is granted automatically. It also seems that that said tradition is important enough to be mentioned (in order to obtain and assert legitimacy?) when the consort is foreign: Mors was a foreigner to Nymeria, Drazenko was from Lys.

When it comes to Mellario, she is only referred as “Lady Mellario” or “Lady Mellario of Norvos” and not consort. My guess? Two points need to be put forward:

Although they are still married, Doran and Mellario are estranged and she’s back in Norvos. It’s no secret. I bet this has its importance. (think Princess Diana before/after her divorce: her title changed from “Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales” to “Diana, Princess of Wales”) It would be a slap in the face of Dorne and the ruling of Dorne to have someone retaining the title of Princess Consort even though she’s not even there and hasn’t been for years. There is some responsibility that comes with being consort, after all.

Mellario is a noblewoman from Norvos. Norvoshi nobles seem to be extremely proud: the high city of Norvos where the ancient nobility lives is ringed by mighty stone walls. It is not impossible that Mellario did not want the consort title so as to retain her own Norvoshi noble title. It could also be that she did not keep the consort title when she left Dorne for Norvos.

However, given that Mellario is foreign, if there is a tradition of having to name the spouse consort, that tradition would be necessary in her case. Meaning that she ‘at best’ no longer uses/has the consort title and ‘at worst’ retained her Norvoshi title over the Dornish one. Both possibilities would explain why she’s not referred as Princess consort in the timeline of ASOIAF events.

Apart from Nymeria’s husbands being her consorts, all of the other consorts we know of (we critically lack info on the historical line of Martell rulers and GRRM is 100% to blame and even more his misogyny/racism which seeps through: think Unnamed Princess of Dorne, the unnamed daughter of Nymeria who succeeded her, what was the blood relation between Mara and Morion Martell, etc.) are men. But since we have Nymeria’s example, I'd say that the lack of knowledge on consorts and consort title in Dorne comes from the general lack of Martell historical info and GRRM’s male focus rather than Dorne being a patriarchal system in itself (GRRM’s intention is for Dorne not to be as patriarchal as other Westerosi regions, having in mind the subversion of traditional tropes of the medieval fantasy genre, although he can fall short of his own intention.)

So what if Oberyn had become ruling Prince and married Cersei? I think she would have gotten the consort title automatically. Why do I say that? When Arianne says she wants a consort with teeth, we have just learned about her proposed suitors over the years. None of them are Dornish but all come from the Westerosi continent and yet they are referred as becoming Arianne’s consort had she married any of them. Therefore, Cersei would be in a similar situation than any of Arianne’s Westerosi suitors: as a Westerosi, she would hence gain the consort title automatically. 

Thanks for the interesting question!

#asoiaf meta #meta #mellario of norvos #doran martell #queen nymeria #nymeria of ny sar #mors martell #aliandra martell #drazenko rogare #arianne martell #unnamed princess of dorne #cersei lannister #history and lore #culture #anonymous #ask #ddpersonal #A Song of Ice and Fire #twoiaf #laws and customs

[arielseaworth]

hi ariel! i don't know if this is much of a prompt, but i'd love to see your take on aliandra martell. maybe meeting alyn velaryon or her marriage to drazenko rogare might be interesting to explore?

FIC: The Path to Matrimony

“And what of you, my princess? Do you see my value as a suitor suddenly increasing, perhaps, now that you know that my niece is wed to the king’s brother?”

(For the prompt: The marriage of Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare.)

Read @ AO3

#suhfaaaaaaaaan #Aliandra Martell #Drazenko Rogare #valyrianscrolls #gotfic #arielfic #Aliandra x Drazenko #thank you for your prompt <3 #so ... this turned into an all-dialogue fic #I hope that's okay #if it's not okay please feel free to send me another prompt #and I will try to write a fic that's not all-dialogue :D

[khazelgl]

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken: Magnificent and Dangerous Women of House Nymeros Martell — 12/20.

Aliandra Martell was a ruling Princess of Dorne and head of House Nymeros Martell.

The daughter of Prince Qoren Martell, Aliandra came young into her seat. She was a fiery woman and saw herself as a new Nymeria.

Aliandra was married to Drazenko Rogare. As well, she showed great favor to Lord Alyn Velaryon, when he visited Sunspear. They met during his first great journey, when his campaign to defend the westerlands from Dalton Greyjoy, brought him to Sunspear, and they met again when he returned from the Sunset Sea.

Aliandra died at the age of 27. She was succeeded by her younger sister Princess Coryanne.

#house nymeros martell #house martell #martell #aliandra martell #aliandra #nymeria #nymeria of ny sar #nymeria of the rhoyne #qoren martell #qoren #house rogare #rogare #drazenko rogare #alyn velaryon #house velaryon #house greyjoy #coryanne martell #coryanne #ASoIaF #preasoiaf #headcanon #women power

[princessnysar]

Headcanons of Princess Aliandra 

Her father prince Qoren married a daughter from one of the founding families of Braavos and Aliandra fostered there for a few years in safety during the times of trouble (The era of Daemon and the Dance of Dragon) returning when things calmed 

She married twice, first to Drazenko Rogare and then Joffrey of house Dayne

Mother of prince Aliandre and princess Ariana born of her second husband Ser Joffrey 

Grandmother of Princess Myriah born in 150, Prince Maron born in 152, Princess Vanora born in 160, Prince Malor born in 161 and Princess Vanora in 161, Princess Clarisse born in 174 and Princess Nyssa in 182 

Great Grand-mother of Prince Baelor born in 170, Prince Aerys born in 172, Prince Rhaegal born in 174 and Prince Maekar born in 175 (Myriah), Ser Marence Sand born in 171, Ser Adrien Sand born in 174, Ser Vorian Sand born in 179, Ser Alaric Sand born in 183, Lady Jeyne Sand born in 187, Prince Daeron born in 190, Princess Naerys born in 191, Princess Clarissa born in 196 and Princess Alysanne born in 200 (Maron) Lady Marianna Toland born in 181, Lady Jyanna Toland born in 190 and Eliandra Toland born in 199 (Malor) Lady Alysanna Rivers born in 175, Ser Ulrick Dayne born in 176 and Lady Dyanna Dayne born in 176, (Vanora) Ser Hadrian Allyrion born in 189, Ser Jasper Allyrion born in 193, Lady Jenna Allyrion born in 196, Lady Ashlynn Allyrion born in 200 and Ser Harmen Allyrion born in 207 (Clarissa) Lady Alia Blackmont born in 206, Ser Mychael Blackmont born in 207 and Lady Jynessa Blackmont born in 210 (Nyssa)  

#house martell #aliandra martell #house dayne #house targaryen #myriah martell #dorne #house allyrion #house blackmont

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hi! I'm reading about Jeyne Arryn (and ladies regents overall) and since it doesn't say, I wondered if you have any thoughts on who she might have married? Is there any difference in women marrying lords and men marrying ladies, i.e. a daughter of a vassal house is often gladly given to the ruling lord bc of status and the honor, but since any children of a ruling lady would be her surname instead of the husband's, do you think ppl might rather marry another and keep their own name?

I don’t think Jeyne Arryn married anyone. You don’t get a title like Maiden of the Vale (cf Elizabeth I, the Virgin Queen) if you’re married with kids. After she died, the rulership of the Vale probably passed to a sibling or cousin. The general history of House Arryn makes me suspect this has happened several times. (Besides the situation with Sweetrobin and Harry Hardyng, there’s also the time when Lord Ronnel and his family were murdered by his younger brother Jonos who was then executed by Maegor, and the rulership passed to their cousin Hubert.)

Regarding a man marrying a ruling lady and not having the default right to give his name to his children (as long as I’m cf’ing British royals, see Prince Philip’s complaint)… well, it’s a tradeoff. He may not have that visible legacy, but he typically is his lady wife’s chief adviser (and often administrator of her lands and leader of her soldiers), and that kind of influence and power is not a benefit to be overlooked. For example, Drazenko Rogare was married to the Dornish ruling Princess Aliandra Martell, and the Rogare banking family had great influence in Westeros at the time. (Also because his niece, Larra, was married to Prince Viserys Targaryen, the future King Viserys II.) Plus, a father’s influence on his children is usually very strong, so the opportunity to raise the future heir is another benefit – men who marry their daughters to a ruling lord can only hope he will give favor to his father-in-law, but it’s pretty much a given that a ruling lord (or lady) will honor and favor his father, even if they don’t share the same surname. Furthermore, if by some accident the lady should die while her children are underage, it’s an almost certainty that her husband-consort would be appointed regent for the new young lord (or lady).

Marrying an heiress or ruling lady is also an opportunity for rogues, the kind of man who’d look at the above benefits as the real reason for and true profit of the marriage. (Which is why such a woman needs to be very careful who she selects as her husband, if she can.) Prince Daemon Targaryen, even though he deeply disliked his wife Lady Rhea Royce (who he called “my bronze bitch”) and spent as little time in the Vale as possible, still tried to claim her lands and incomes after her death. (He failed, Runestone passed to Rhea’s nephew, and Lady Jeyne Arryn told Daemon to get the hell out of the Vale.) Bronn married Lollys Stokeworth, who was not even her mother’s heir, with the intent of displacing her childless elder sister; and after his and Cersei’s (inept) machinations, both Lady Tanda and Falyse were dead, and while Lollys is now technically Lady Stokeworth, as she is mentally disabled Bronn is calling himself Lord Stokeworth. (His hired army in Stokeworth castle also helps there.) Also since Bronn was lowborn, the opportunity for his future children to be named Stokeworth is actually something he’d prefer to his own lack of a surname. And then there’s Hyle Hunt, who boldfacedly tells Brienne that Tarth is what he wants, in exchange for giving her the sex and children he thinks she wants. Not to mention Tywin’s plans for Tyrion and Sansa, or Tyrek and little Lady Ermesande Hayford, although that’s less of a “rogue” and more of a “malicious bastard manipulating tyrant” kind of thing. (Tywin would probably insist that the children be named Lannister, anyway.)

At any rate, the (hopefully) better sort of man who marries a ruling lady is probably not any kind of heir. He’s a second son, or a third, with little or no chance at his parent’s seat. What does it matter if your children have your name, when they’ll never have an opportunity to inherit your family’s lands or live in your family’s castle? Oftentimes he’s marrying up, too, to greater status and honor than his own – like when a ruling Princess of Dorne marries one of her bannermen; or like when the landed knight Ser Eustace Osgrey married Lady Rohanne Webber, whose lands included much of what House Osgrey had lost over the years (including her castle). (Though we don’t know if Eustace and Rohanne had any kids before she was widowed (again) and married Gerold Lannister, or if they did, what they were named. There are no known Osgreys in current-times Westeros, mind you, and only one Webber, who’s with a mercenary group of exiles.) Also, a ruling lady may sometimes marry a cousin, who shares her name but is not in the direct line of succession, as a way of binding together branches of the family and preventing challenges to her inheritance. Though in that case her husband may rule straight up, without her (the situation of Serena and Sansa Stark, most likely), or with her until his death (the probable situation of Lady Shella Whent, whose father and grandfather were Lords of Harrenhal, and yet her husband Walter Whent was the named lord during the great tourney there).

Nevertheless. It is interesting that of almost all the ruling ladies we know, when they have husbands they’re barely mentioned if at all. Oberyn Martell speaks of his trip to Casterly Rock with his mother the Princess of Dorne and “her consort”, not his father. Arys Oakheart thinks of his mother Lady Arwyn in re “the women are the strong ones”, but never once thinks of his father. We know nothing about the (deceased) husbands of the elderly ruling ladies Tanda Stokeworth, Mary Mertyns, and Anya Waynwood. The Dornish ruling ladies Delonne Allyrion, Larra Blackmont, and Nymella Toland have children, but no named or appearing consorts. And of course Maege Mormont “beds with a bear”, as does her heir Alysane. It’s an intriguing reversal of the usual situation of unnamed wives in the rest of Westeros… although I think it would be more interesting to meet one of these consorts and see what he thinks about his life, and his wife.

Well, maybe we’ll get a chance to find out in the next two books or so. (Though at this rate, I doubt it, alas.) Anyway, hope that helps!

#ashaqueens #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #jeyne arryn #house arryn #westeros laws and customs #ruling ladies #consorts #maiden names #aliandra martell #drazenko rogare #rhea royce #daemon targaryen #lollys stokeworth #bronn #brienne of tarth #hyle hunt #rohanne webber #eustace osgrey #shella whent #walter whent #arwyn oakheart #anya waynwood

[aegor-bamfsteel]

If the Princess of Dorne of the time was not of a military bent, theoretically, who would lead the Dornish levies in times of war: the younger brother of the Princess of Dorne, or her Prince Consort Yronwood, Qorgyle, Manwoody, etc? This is assuming both are competent military leaders, and have a good relationship with the ruling Dornish Princess? Basically, who outranks the other - a Prince of House Martell, or a Prince Consort?

Canon provides us with contradicting evidence. Prince Doran made his brother Oberyn commander of the Dornish forces, but then his consort is estranged. Princess Aliandra made her consort Drazenko Rogare “Lord of the Stepstones” over her siblings Coryanne and Qyle, but he’s never mentioned to have fought in a battle, and he also had the backing of his powerful Essosi family; Aliandra later ordered her knights to raid the Marches (seems like after she was widowed), but we‘re not told who was in charge of the operation. Then of course there’s Nymeria, whose last consort Davos Dayne was only “ever an advisor and consort” rather than an equal commander, though she’s of a military bent (though GRRM flip flopped on this). Meria Martell’s consort isn’t mentioned, and the Dornish resistance seemed scattered, so we don’t even know if she or Nymor (who wanted peace) led armies themselves. The other named Ruling Princesses of Dorne, Deria and Mara, notably didn’t fight (though Deria is supposed to have secretly aided the Vulture King, she’s not mentioned to have directly led an army), but we don’t know anything about their siblings or consorts.

I think Aliandra’s case is probably the most informative: if the consort has enough power through family ties or personal charisma/competence, then he’s the one who gets to lead the armies and take at least ceremonial governance of any conquered territory. If he doesn‘t, and the sibling does, I could see that sibling commanding armies like Oberyn with Doran. But we’d need more in-depth examples to know for sure.

#house Martell #asoiaf #asoiaf headcanon #ask