BRB thinking thoughts about Taigen's character, the TaiMizu ship, and a big chunk of fandom's perceptions regarding both those things.
(Inspired by @farintonorth's post related to this topic that just got my brain going brrrrr)
OK so let me just... start off by saying that I think that reducing stories to their tropes is seriously detrimental to the way some people are interacting with fiction, and while that honestly warrants its own post about the subject, I wanna talk specifically about how this affects the way some people in the fandom talk about Taigen and TaiMizu.
Because yeah, tropes are useful shorthand to refer to certain dynamics or archetypes etc, and they are indeed the building blocks to any story. But in a well-written story, characters and their relationships, actions, and motivations, are much more complex than just tropes. Because in a story that has characters who are more than just cardboard cutouts, their behaviours, backgrounds, motivations and all of that, are inseparable from the context of the overall story they exist in.
So like, sure, you can say Mizu and Taigen have an enemies-to-lovers or rivals-to-lovers dynamic. I also use those terms because it's easier. But I also think this is where things start to get a bit twisted, especially from an intertextual sense. Because "enemies-to-lovers" is also commonly used to refer to other ships in other media, whereby it tends to be rooted in an imbalanced power dynamic, such as oppressor-oppressed and bully-victim.
And while that's a whole can of worms that I won't be getting into because it can quickly derail into a whole separate sort of fandom discourse, I'd just like to make it clear that Mizu and Taigen, in particular, do not have an imbalanced power dynamic. They are not bully-victim or oppressor-oppressed. The only understandable reason why someone might actually think their relationship is imbalanced is if
A) they only watched the first episode, or
B) they cannot grasp the slightest bit of nuance in a character, or
C) they're being obtuse on purpose simply because the Mizu/Taigen relationship, or Taigen's character in general, just doesn't suit their tastes.
While yes, Taigen, along with his whole gang, had bullied Mizu when they were children, that dynamic does not exist between them whatsoever in adulthood. Whatever imbalanced bully-victim power dynamic that had once existed between them was decisively ripped apart the moment Mizu beat him in that duel in the dojo, and then completely obliterated by the end of the season.
Mizu is not a defenseless victim at Taigen's mercy. Mizu can beat Taigen's ass any time she wants (and she DOES, repeatedly in fact), and could even kill him if she felt like it. She taunts him openly and without fear ("I like your hair"; "I can beat you with any weapon you choose") and all he does is bark back, because that's pretty much all Taigen ever does. Time and time again, he yaps about how much he wants to kill her, but time and time again, his actions prove that all of it is just an empty threat. Because though his words say "I hate you", his actions demonstrate the complete opposite. He's shown how protective he is of Mizu, how unhesitatingly he sacrifices himself up for her, how loyal he is in enduring days-long torture to not give up information about her, how even when near-death and in pain, he's still willing to keep standing back up so he can fight by her side and help her win against her enemies.
And Mizu is not an idiot! She sees that too. She does not see him as a threat, an enemy, or even a bully. Especially not by the end of Episode 3, and definitely not by the end of the season. When she finds him in the dungeon in Episode 6, she smiles from relief, and doesn't think twice to take him with her. Mizu finds him, at best, an annoyance, or at worst, an infuriating hindrance on her quest for vengeance. Which is why, when Taigen is about to say, "It's a shame our duel's set for tomorrow; I have to kill you before you get your revenge," Mizu whacks him on the head without a second thought before he can even finish his sentence, and leaves him lying unconscious, face-down, in the snow.
And this further emphasises how he does not hold any power over her. There is no abusive power dynamic between them. She is more powerful than him, he knows this, and all he's ever done after they've met up again in adulthood is get his ass whooped by her, get mad about it and pester her and follow her around, get his ass whooped by her some more, and put his life on the line to protect her.
"OOoooOOoooH b-but he called her a demon at the end of Episode 7 and threatened to kill her again!!!" Oh my god. He called her that because he's calling her out on her selfishness to stay silent about her knowledge of Fowler's plans to attack Edo. Because to him, loyalty and honour as a samurai is more important than anything. So in his own brash-and-immature Taigen way, he felt betrayed that Mizu did not hold the same principles. That's why he got angry. He wasn't even that mad about letting Akemi get dragged off by the Tokunobu guards. It was about saving the Shogun and the Shogunate as a whole. That's why the first thing he does in Edo is not find Akemi, but try to warn the Shogun about Fowler's attack.
Look, I'm not defending his stupid ass, of course. Because calling her a demon especially after their cute little wrestling time was obviously rude and inappropriate, especially since words like "demon", "monster" and "Onryo" have had such a deep effect on Mizu throughout her life, and continue to contribute to her self-hatred. But like? That's the fun of realistic and flawed characters, and realistic and flawed relationships. They're not perfect, and it's why we as an audience root for them, wanting to see them work through their shit and find a way to prevail despite it all.
Also, him saying that was in the heat of the moment. He was angry, he felt like his initial belief of who Mizu was—a strong and loyal samurai, just like him—was shattered, and so he lashed out. Was it rude? Definitely. Was it immature of him? Yes, incredibly. But it's also very much in line with his character, because even though he's grown a lot over the course of the season, the show isn't over yet, so obviously his character arc is just beginning, as that is also the case for the other three main characters: Mizu is beginning to accept herself, Akemi is beginning to grow into her position of power, Ringo beginning to train under Master Eiji, while Taigen is beginning to simply be a better person.
On that note, when speaking of Taigen's immaturity, I think that's also one of the main things that people tend to gloss over when it comes to his character. Because when you boil everything down to its bare essentials, Taigen is, essentially, a boy. I've talked about this before, but to reiterate, Taigen very much behaves like an unhealed child. Even as an adult, he is insecure, prone to throwing tantrums, and is desperate to latch onto some material goal in hopes that it will make him feel better—initially he was chasing status/glory/greatness, and then when Mizu tells him that "Nothing comes from being a samurai but death," he immediately decides he wants to run away with Akemi in hopes that he will be happy.
And it's a big step, acknowledging that he doesn't truly want greatness, but had always just assumed it was his only path to a good life. But it's clear he still hasn't really figured it out. Because if he did run off with Akemi to get married and live in the countryside, he still wouldn't be happy. Because he still doesn't know who he really is, or what it is he really wants. Marriage at this moment is the last thing he needs, and as he is now, he would be a pretty awful husband. A simple life would be good for him, but would he be good at a simple life, when he still has so much he needs to work through?
So anyway, what I'm getting at here, is that he's trying and he is learning and growing. So yeah, he is flawed, but honestly? So is Mizu. And the funny thing is that they're flawed in very similar ways.
Because Mizu is also an unhealed child. That's why she's so angry all the time. That's why she pushes people away. That's why she, just like Taigen, is so happy when given the chance to playfully wrestle in the forge, laughing and rolling around like children without shame or pretense.
Again, this shows there is no imbalance between them. They had grown up together as peers from the same town. And while Taigen had had the upper hand back then, because he'd had a gang of other kids with him, that is definitely not the case anymore. Today, they are equally flawed, equally strong, equally skilled swordsmen, and equally bull-headed.
However, yes, Mizu is definitely leagues more mature than Taigen. But she still holds a lot of childhood wounds that mirror Taigen's own. And we see this especially in relation to her mother. Similar to Taigen who had an abusive and alcoholic father, Mizu's Mama was an opium addict and had hit her, berated her, had shaved her head without her consent as a child, and as an adult, had constantly emotionally manipulated and guilt-tripped her. Mizu's love for her Mama was what had driven her to a path of vengeance in the very beginning. And when she'd found out Mama was still alive, she had wanted nothing more than her Mama's love, and it was this alone that pushed her to agree to the marriage with Mikio in the first place. And now, knowing from Fowler that her birth mother is someone else entirely, is what makes her agree to keep him alive and haul his ass to London to seek answers.
Thus, integral to Mizu's self-hatred is also Mizu's intense longing for love and family. Just like Taigen, whose pompousness comes from his insecurity about being the son of a poor fisherman, Mizu's goals are also shaped by who her parents are. Remember, her vengeance is not against just anyone who's corrupt or evil, but specifically against the men who she believes had assaulted her mother, the men she believes had made her a monster, the men she believes had abandoned her to die and continue to try to kill her. Her vengeance is against a father, on behalf of a mother. In The Tale of the Ronin and the Bride, Mizu is not merely the Ronin, the Bride, or the Onryo, but also the Child.
This is also why Ringo is so good, not only for Mizu, but for Taigen as well. Ringo is wise and caring and considerate, but above all, he is in tune with his inner child in ways that Mizu and Taigen are not. He is always earnest and positive, he sees the world with childlike wonder, but is not naive or blind to its ugliness. His whole life has been a battle. Ringo brings out the best in Mizu, consistently acting as her moral compass and conscience, and Mizu's choice to save Akemi in the final episode is only because she promised Ringo that she would. Because it's the right thing to do. Ringo inspires her to be a better person, and to think outside of her narrow-minded goal of revenge. At the same time, Ringo also brings out the best in Taigen. While at first Taigen had looked down on both Mizu and Ringo ("Half-limb to a half-wit"), by the end of the season, he's proud to have Ringo as a friend and ally, he listens to Ringo's advice ("What would Master do?"), and asserts to the fucking Shogun that Ringo is a worthy warrior to have by his side.
Okay, I've gone on a bit of a tangent here, but my main point is that Mizu and Taigen are incredibly similar. They are equals. They are both flawed, unhealed children who are chasing some impossible outlandish goal in hopes that it will fill the void in their hearts. They also both have a long way to go in terms of character development if they were to ever build a healthy romantic relationship (either with each other, or even with anyone else). So while I believe things will be rocky (because duh, it's a story, we all live for the drama, etc), I think with Ringo's help, they'll get there eventually.
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Do you think he was ever in love with Bedelia like he was in love with Will? I ask this because Bedelia says they were both the "brides of Hannibal". But Hannibal never courted her like he did with Will, Bedelia came into Hannibal's life much before Will but he never pursued her like he did with Will. Mads said he wanted a future with Will unlike with other people he hooked up with Alana, Bedelia or Anthony. He took her to Italy as a consolation prize when Will betrayed him. Even in Italy H was pining about Will all the time and telling Bedelia how much he loves Will. I know he slept with Bedelia but he probably slept with Anthony too and he slept with Alana, Hannibal is a hedonistic guy who sleeps around. For him sleeping with someone doesn't mean he is in love with them. On the other hand he took a bullet for Will, went to prison for years for Will, made a human heart for Will, jumped off a cliff for Will, committed a whole massacre for Will. But when Will confronts Bedelia, she pretends as if Hannibal held them in the same regard which is obviously not true. Hannibal would choose Will over her in a heart beat and even she knows it but yet she acts as if Hannibal sees them both equally. I don't understand why? 😭 Why do you think?why make herself seem like a competition when she is not?
I think that’s a very interesting question, Bedelia is a complex character and I can only tell you what I think, I don’t know if there’s a right or wrong answer here.
First of all, I think we can take sex out of the equation entirely. There are moments in the show where Hannibal and Will touch each other, but none of them are in a sexual context. I think these moments have significance in the sense that they are a sign of Hannibal being changed by Will, and I can imagine a season 4 in which their physical relationship is explored further, but from what we’ve seen, sex plays a small role in Hannibal’s (and Will’s!) life. However, we see a lot of carnal connection between characters through something else: Hannibal’s cannibalism. I believe that what many people find in sex, he finds in his meals. He feeds people human meat all of the time, but in most cases they don’t know about it. Will does, and Hannibal knows he does. Inbetween all of Will’s double spy thing that’s going on, he never once suggests not wanting to eat Hannibal’s food, not just to the man himself, but also to the audience. Will wants to join Hannibal at the table, he wants to join him in the one (very corporal) thing Hannibal hasn’t shared with anyone knowing or willing (except for Gideon, but he is practically forced to eat his own leg, which is very different from willingly eating Hannibal’s murder victims while being a free man). The symbolism behind their shared meals is endless, but now to Bedelia: For all her knowledge of Hannibal, she still refuses to dine with him. In fact, I believe she is repulsed by it.
We know Bedelia has a murderous tendency, or at least that Hannibal was able to coax it out of her. I do think there are similarities between Bedelia and Will, they are both acutely aware of Hannibal’s character, danger, capability and power and they are also both intrigued by it. But there are fundamental differences between their relationship to this knowledge: With Bedelia, it results in fascinated fear, with Will in self-recognition. Bedelia is afraid of Hannibal while they share a life in Florence, because, as you said, she knows if he were to get bored with her, it would mean she’d end up as his dinner. She has no intention of joining him in eating anyone, she does not want to be eaten by him (or suffer any violence at his hand), or eat him herself. Will does. Bedelia is a spectator, Will is a participant.
As for why Hannibal spent such a huge part of his life with her, I think it’s a quite simple and very human reason: loneliness. Bedelia was his psychiatrist before she was his wife and even if she didn’t know the nature of his crimes for a long time, she did know at least part of him. Hannibal craved understanding and being known and I think he knew he could find some sense of it in Bedelia. She’s his consolation prize, as you said. He was promised a partner in crime (literally) and didn’t get one, so he might as well take the next best thing and discard it if necessary. He clearly also knew she stayed with him out of fear.
As you said, Bedelia actively tries to make Will jealous. She knows how dangerous Hannibal is, but I’m not sure she realises just in how much danger she is putting herself when making Will angry and jealous. I don’t think she loves Hannibal, it’s probably a distant sort of fascination and intrigue, but, like you said, she’s more than aware Hannibal does not see her as an equal. I believe Bedelia wants Will to believe she is Hannibal’s true partner, because then someone does, even if it isn’t Hannibal, or herself for that matter. She chose a life she knew wasn’t truly hers to live and I think she merely wants to convince someone close to her and Hannibal that it is hers to live. That’s speculation on my part, though, even if based on perception of her behaviour.
I’ve always thought Bedelia is the character most similar to the show’s audience. A spectator who is fascinated, intrigued and repulsed by Hannibal, just like (presumably) most of us are. She must be living a very lonely life in Florence. In the first two seasons, she plays the same role in Hannibal’s life, but she also has one of her own. A psychiatrist is the epitome of passive spectatorship. When in Florence, she is reduced to that role entirely, her life consists of nothing else. I honestly can’t blame her for wanting to be active in some way, even if it was only in someone else’s imagination.
It’s also interesting to take in the post credit scene of wrath of the lamb, but I fear I would talk for hours if I started and most of it would be very vague interpretations.
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i was doing my regular rewatch the other day and tbh... lonnie and will's relationship is so unsettling. lonnie literally did not give a single goddamn fuck that his own twelve year old son was missing and later "dead". he just... did not fucking care! at all. couldn't even pretend to. jonathan comes to tell him what happened and we see that...
lonnie got joyce's call and still didn't care to reach out,
when jonathan tells him this is serious and real, he mocks will by saying "he was never very good at taking care of himself" (which is already disturbing considering this is his son he's talking about, but especially so when you remember that lonnie abused will for being gay and tried to get him to like "masculine" things),
he's already talking to jonathan about seeing him more and reconnecting, like will isn't fucking missing, like he's already fucking dead and he's moved on, as if will is some stranger or worse someone that never existed at all,
instead of feeling any kind of shame about jonathan not believing him when he says will isn't there and him looking in the actual fucking trunk of his car, he just makes a joke out of it asking if jonathan's gonna check up his ass too,
his neglect is brought up again when jonathan slams one of the posters to his chest and tells him "in case you forgot what he looks like",
and that's not even touching on the fact that the very first thing we see lonnie do when jonathan enters the house is fucking shove and pin him to the wall, telling him "you got stronger".
like, he is not a good man in the slightest—the complete antithesis of the byers we know.
and then afterward... lonnie finally decides to come back. he's being nice to joyce and pretending like he's the man of the house again. like he's finally come home to fix and save his family.
he goes to will's funeral and treats it like a schmoozing event, like that isn't his youngest son being buried right in front of him, showing less emotion than one of will's classmates that hasn't ever even talked to him.
but... he's not there because he's had a sudden change of heart.
no, he's there because he has something to gain out of this unimaginable tragedy. his own youngest son is dead and he comes back home to collect a fucking check for it. because he's never cared about will, hasn't ever even seen him as a human being, he just... sees his death as something he can benefit from.
it's just so fucked up and so sinister. lonnie isn't a man riddled with vices, beholden to some disease which makes him act in ways most unbecoming. no, he's... just a man. a small, manipulative, and cruel leech of a man that just doesn't fucking care and is in it only for himself.
it's just... it's really tragic to think that will really was dealing with monsters way before that first demogorgon ever came through the gate.
and even then... that demogorgon was an animal acting as animals do / possessed by vecna and you can't really blame it for that. but what's lonnie's excuse, huh?
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