anticonspiracist

[anticonspiracist]

do you by any chance have that post you talked about by doll lady that was gaining traction when she was a gossip blogger in 2012? it would be interesting to see where she started, in comparison to where she ended up

After a few days of posting about Liam and his rumored breakup, Amy (then posting as Gossip Candy) posted about Harry and got 20 whole notes (link to archived day, since she has deleted her blog posts). The last post from that day is an ask thanking her for "writing that article" about Harry:

You can see here that she isn't saying she's a conspiracy theorist, just a 1D fan, though she DOES allude to fans she will later call "hets" there at the end.

She posts at least a dozen times a day through early October, not matching the note count she got with that first Harry post (even though she posts about 1D's management banning questions, and a woman linked to Harry by the Sun winning a libel lawsuit).

October 6th had a run of 1D posts, but not a lot of notes.

In November, she brings larry into an "article" about Harry addressing "rumors," which earns her a fawning ask. She's also reblogging from larrie blogs.

On November 14th, she's posting about Harry's sparrow tattoos:

At this time, as I scroll the archived days, her "articles" are outweighed by larry reblogs, though she does get nearly 200 notes on an "article" about Harry being spotted in two places at once. Who cares, right? But this paragraph indicates why so many notes:

And then later that day ...

And on November 17th, she's publishing ask after ask praising her for her larry articles and being a new supporter.

worked out so well for her!!

#doll lady #gossip candy #lesbianslovelouis #lesbianslovelarry #28nachos #amysparkles #larry stylinson

[anticonspiracist]

1 I want to start by saying that I'm no way a Larrie and english is not my first language so I'm not sure if I will get across what I mean. Apologizes if it doesnt make sense. Do you think that when H and L were young and was being rather "affectionate" towarrds eachother, that it wasnt always just "teenage boys being teenage boys" but also that they had a vauge idea that people shipped them so it was like an in joke between them and the fans (no queerbaiting) and them throwing shippers a bone

2 every now and then (like Harry saying Louis was his first crush) and then they realised, holy fck some of these people genuinley belive this shit, and then (om top of growing older and just changing in general) it just wasnt "fun" to do that anymore. So Larries ruined it for causal shippers to.

Sorry it's taken me awhile to get to this!

In short, yes. I think it's pretty clear that Harry and Louis were engaging in fanservice in the early days of the band, particularly when they were on the television show. They needed support from fans to advance one week to the next, so they did what seemed to be getting them the most engagement.

It ceased being a fun thing in September 2012 when Louis lashed out at people for believing in the conspiracy theory because it was hurting his loved ones. Those who kept engaging in larrie beliefs after that point were the true conspiracy theorists.

That month was when doll lady (lesbianslovelouis/lesbianslovelarry/28nachos/amysparkles) came into fandom. She was trying to be a gossip blogger and her post about Harry got a LOT of interaction on this platform. She saw that the attention was in stirring up conspiracy theorists, so that's what she did. for more than a decade. wild.

#fanservice #fetus larry #larry stylinson #harry styles #louis tomlinson

[anticonspiracist]

forensic odontology is largely bullshit, and definitely is in this case (soft tissue of a live subject).

hi sorry i was just wondering what the picture of harry with love bites you guys were talking about was, and also the one of him papped sleeping or something? sorry im a bit out of the loop (banned myself from tumblr to get course work done eww)

well i’m not going to post the picture of him sleeping… but you can pretty much find it anywhere so like it’s not hard to find.

as for the love bites…

When they arrived in France (day after their movie date):

And then 2 days later when he was coming back from Glasgow (clearly these bite marks were a few days old):

So yeah, Louis likes to bite apparently. Bite hard.

#larrie dentists #forensic odontology #thus continues larrie bullshit #larry stylinson #your experts are inexpert #Spotify

[anticonspiracist]

go on, read about the guy that big larries said actually knew anything about harry and louis 🙃🙃🙃

#cdan #enty lawyer #blind items #making up shit

[anticonspiracist]

New conspiracy theorists are being born with this whole Kate Middleton drama. Its interesting to witness a conspiracy come to life recognizing all the boxes it checks and realizing that it’s in fact all conspiracies. A couple years ago I would have fallen for this bs but I know better now and that’s partly thanks to your content.

I hhave a hard time agreeing that those engaging with the Kate Middleton issue are NEW conspiracy theorists. Some, likely, but most of them likely already believe in another conspiracy theory (JFK assassination, US govt covering up knowledge of aliens, Princess Di CTs...).

I am, however, glad to hear that our work here has inoculated you! That's my goal. 😎

#kate middleton #conspiracy theory

[anticonspiracist]

#conspiracy mindset

[anticonspiracist]

This might be relevant to your interests!

#podcast rec #conspirituality #Spotify

[anticonspiracist]

Larrie Wikipedia anon - a ton of sources on the page itself (and the sources on its talk page) make gestures towards trying to "objectively" analyze larrie communities. It's probably missing something because during the course of making it, I read every piece of larrie scholarship that existed and tossed out some of the bad ones. You should know that the McCann and Southerton article isn't the only one they published on that topic.

Larrie wikipedia anon: their other article is called "Queerbaiting and Real Person Slash: The Case of Larry Stylinson" and while it's a great source of citeable data for the page (Wikipedia innately needing secondary sources) the politics of the article itself are abhorrent and full of victim blaming.

Oh, I have read that one. I prepared some notes on it for the podcast episode but we didn't end up referencing it. It seemed to me that the queerbaiting piece was a prelude to the research they conducted that led to repetitions of desire. It makes it clear that McCann and Southerton are not familiar with the actual conspiracy theories that larries engage in and how those conspiracy theories negatively affect the fandom they claim to love.

#wikipedia #larry stylinson

[anticonspiracist]

Enjoyed your new podcast, that research paper was ridiculous! I'm glad you guys dismantled it. I know this was a small part of the discussion, but you mentioned red, white and royal blue, and said that it was good for larries to move onto openly gay media, but larries like Kat are probably interested in that movie for tinhat reasons too. Here's a larrie that's already started tinhatting the actors: alarrytale tumblr com/tagged/nick galitzine

anon, OH MY GOD.

i don't know why i am STILL surprised by larries speculating about the sexual orientations of various celebrities and also speaking authoritatively about them, but i AM. this is .... wow. just wow.

#episode 34 #podcast listeners #nick galitzine #also i'm sorry but WHY NICK #when TZP is right there #RIGHT THERE! #to all my swimmers out there -- any bets on what his stroke was? #i think i'm leaning backstroke

[anticonspiracist]

Very enjoyable to listen to your podcast criticizing the McCann and Southerton article. I wrote the majority of the Larries Wikipedia page, and an editor who had been around longer than I had was obsessed with the article, I had to figure out how to minimize and counter it on the page because removing a source entirely is seen as an act of war. I'm not sure how much Larry scholarship you've engaged with, but apologism for it in academia is pervasive.

Larrie Wikipedia anon - regrettably some of the page is in a state of being half-finished, as I had people harassing me on Wikipedia at the time who were very obsessed with the queerbaiting narrative. I will complete it someday.

First of all, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE! Wikipedia editors are my personal heroes. I've dabbled a bit (I think I've edited 2 articles, both related to Alexander the Great and changing fewer than 20 words total) and have great respect for those of you holding down the fort.

I can ... imagine ... the issues caused by the McCann and Southerton article. I haven't run across much Larrie apologia in my day and if you have a list of articles I'd love to dig in. Or ... should I check the sources on a specific Wikipedia page? :)

#wikipedia #episode 34 #podcast listeners

[anticonspiracist]

finally finally finally! episode 34 of shit larries say is live. click thru to listen as @back-to-louis and SLS chat about our larry concerts this summer, BTL updates us on what some tumblr larries are up to these days, and THEN, for most of the nearly 3 hour long episode fml, we discuss "repetitions of desire: queering the one direction fangirl" by mccann and southerton (2019). plenty of links in the shownotes.

send us asks, DM us, email me at shitlarriessay at gmail if anything sparked your imagination! we had a lot of fun recording this episode and we hope you enjoy listening to it! yay, fandom!

#podcast #episode 34 #fandom #meta #larry stylinson #harry styles #louis tomlinson #Spotify

[anticonspiracist]

jut finished recording a nearly THREE HOUR podcast episode w/ @back-to-louis so it's over for you folks.

[anticonspiracist]

where my kaylor antis at, QAA got u. msg me for link.

[anticonspiracist]

HSHQ ATTACKS LOUIS TOMLINSON

Last week, in reply to the usual Larrie goading on Twitter, Louis Tomlinson indirectly referred to Larry as "ridiculous childish theories and conspiracies". Revenge from Larries has been swift. They're angry. They're insulted. They're broken-hearted! They're mocking and vengeful. They're undeterred in their Larrying.

In short, they're all the things they always are whenever Louis addresses their stupid bullshit.

BUT!

Other fans of Louis - fans who are definitely not conspiracy theorists and certainly not Larries, oh no! - have uncovered an even darker tale of anger and revenge.

It isn't just Larries who have responded furiously to Louis' denial of Larry.

Harry Styles HQ has unleashed a vicious, vengeful attack on Louis!

That's right. According to seasurfacefullofclouds1, "when Louis does anything to shatter the 'Larry' illusion, Sony (HSHQ, Irving and Jeff, Rob Stringer etc) get very angry".

And how do they deal with that anger? By posting a "disgusting" video of Louis on Sony's TikTok "that is so obviously targeted harassment against Louis they make it obvious that they are the power that causes industry to blacklist Louis".

Now, I am not a skilled specialist in the nefarious ways of HSHQ, so when I saw this disgusting video of Sony's, I confess it wasn't immediately clear to me why it was so disgusting.

According to Louis' fans, HSHQ's tactics are sly and insidious. So sly as to be almost imperceptible to anyone other than the highly-trained eye of a watchful Louis Tomlinson fan. One might ask, if HSHQ's revenge can only be perceived by these LT sleuths, how can it be effective?

BECAUSE IT JUST IS, OKAY??! DON'T ASK DIFFICULT QUESTIONS!

The video in question is an 11-second compilation of clips of Louis from various One Direction music videos, soundtracked by the chorus of 1D's second single, Gotta Be You. It's one of a series of videos Sony posted of each of the 1D members, all set to the Gotta Be You chorus and captioned "It's gotta be Niall", "It's gotta be Harry" etc.

Hmm... the disgusting nature of this video was subtle in the extreme. I needed to refer to an expert.

Gracefullou said, "Sony posted a TikTok about Louis (as a 1D member) and used as a sound the part of that song that he said on aotv he was promised to sing only to find out when it was released they used that man's voice instead".

Aha! The clue here is in the use of "that man" - codename for Harry Styles. And of course - Gotta Be You!

In Louis' documentary, he shared the difficult memory of rehearsing and recording a verse in Gotta Be You, only to discover that his singing was not used in the final recording, and the verse was instead sung by Harry. Now, the disgusting Sony video does not actually use the part of the song Louis was referring to, but no matter! And the fact that the same chorus was also used to soundtrack the videos of the other four members of 1D is immaterial...ignore that part, it's Sony burying the lead! THIS WAS A TARGETED AND DELIBERATE ATTACK!!!!

Look, it's obvious. Harry, the Azoffs, Rob Stringer...they're all "still bitter he survived and is thriving rn".

You may think, but Harry is currently on a break, loved-up with his girlfriend. Why would he care that Louis has denied Larry again?

THINK, SHEEPLE, THINK!!

You may ask, "Haven't Irving and Jeff Azoff just launched The Sphere with a series of mind-blowing U2 concerts? Wouldn't they be too busy to monitor Louis Tomlinson's Twitter?"

WAKE UP! REAL EYES REALISE REAL LIES!!11!!

But, hold on - how would Rob Stringer, CEO of Sony Music Entertainment, have the time to prioritise the blacklisting of Louis Tomlinson in such a carefully-planned, time-consuming fashion?

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE TRUTH WHEN IT'S SO OBVIOUS THEN YOU NEVER WILL!

HSHQ will not tolerate Louis Tomlinson denying Larry, and they will continue their crusade against him in response. End of. I hope this has been educational.

[anticonspiracist]

"What's happening to Gaza?"

On October 7, Hamas militants conducted an attack on Israel resulting in the death of ~1300 Israelis, including women and children and other civilians. The militants broke out of Gaza at the Erez crossing (north Gaza Strip).

In response, the Israeli government has authorized and carried out an extensive campaign of airstrikes against Gaza using the justification that Hamas militants purposely use Palestinian civilians as human shields. The Israeli government contends that Hamas chooses headquarters locations in residential buildings as a way to discourage the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) from targeting them. Israel also contends that Hamas militants have an extensive tunnel system under Gaza in the north, which protects the militants from perishing in airstrikes.

While Hamas' political wing was elected to power in the election held in 2007, there has not been another vote since. Fully half of the 2.2 million people in Gaza are children. Israeli forces left Gaza in 2005 but has blockaded it since then. Israel has full control over everything and everyone that enters and leaves the Strip.

Currently, the Erez crossing is inoperable. The only other crossing is Rafah, in the south, sharing a border with Egypt's Sinai peninsula. This border is closed. It has been open 3 times since October 7: once to let in 30 trucks of humanitarian aid, once to let in 17 trucks, and once on 1 November to allow three critically injured patients and 400 Palestinians with foreign passports to evacuate. The Rafah crossing has been bombed by IDF multiple times since October 7.

The Israeli government has cut off communication with Gaza twice since October 7. It could do so again at any time.

From UNRWA (United Nations Agency for Palestinian Refugees):

According to the Ministry of Health in Gaza, 8,525 people have been killed in the Gaza Strip since 7 October. That is 3,542 children and 2,197 women. A further 21,543 have been injured.

Many in the West do not know any Palestinians at all, let alone a Gazan. They can feel sad when they see bombed out buildings and men digging through rubble with their bare hands, but not knowing a person there allows them to easily move on to the next thing.

I cannot do that.

On my personal account, @yessoupy, I have posted often about my Palestinian students from Gaza. What is happening in Gaza is not an abstraction for me. I have anywhere from 15 (confirmed) to 30 former students currently in Gaza.

What can you do to learn more?

Instagram is widely used in Gaza and is the best place to follow Gazan journalists reporting on their homeland.

byplestia - Plestia Al Aqad, my former student

motaz_azaiza - Motaz Azaiza, Plestia's former schoolmate

hindkhoudary - Hind Khoudary, cousin of another former student of mine

wizard_bisan1

You can add to your list by following these four and following who they tag. By following these accounts, you're able to see what is happening. Please, if you do not know a single Palestinian, please learn. All of these journalists post most of their work in English.

If you have questions that you're afraid to ask because you're worried about whether your wording is offensive or you're worried that you'll look stupid, please send me a DM or an ask off anon (I will not publish publicly unless you EXPLICITLY tell me that you DO want it published). No question is stupid, and I will gently (and without judgment) correct any wording as necessary. In my real life I am a teacher, and having taught world history in the past I know that at least in America students don't learn very much at all about Palestine. I am happy to teach you.

#palestine #gaza #if you send me antisemitic or islamophobic messages or asks #you will be blocked #and the asks deleted

[anticonspiracist]

Cognitive Dissonance.

I’m grateful that this post exists because it’s kickstarted something I’ve had knocking about in my head for a while now, and that is the use of the term “cognitive dissonance” by antis and larries. I’ve already touched on how antis and larries don’t use language in the same way , and @larrie-dictionary already exists as a way to define terms both according to how they are generally understood, and “how larries use them” (this is actually something some larries acknowledge; that they are using a certain meaning for their purposes). In a more broad sense, a further difference in how larries and antis use terms is not only in what they mean, but to what scenarios they are applied, and how.

If we consult with Wikipedia, cognitive dissonance is defined as:

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time; performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas, or values; or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

Leon Festinger’s theory of cognitive dissonance focuses on how humans strive for internal consistency. An individual who experiences inconsistency (dissonance) tends to become psychologically uncomfortable, and is motivated to try to reduce this dissonance—as well as actively avoid situations and information likely to increase it.

Merriam Webster says simply:

psychological conflict resulting from incongruous beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously

Now, for antis observing larries, we would say: Larries hold to a system of beliefs that necessarily include (among other things) the following:

Larry are currently in a monogamous, long-term relationship

Briana was never pregnant

if she ever was, Louis never conceived a child with her

“Freddie Reign Tomlinson” as a person does not exist; he is variously represented by a doll, a bundle of blankets, and/or an assortment of other, real babies who belong to other parents

his birth certificate is a forgery

Louis despises Simon Cowell and would never voluntarily work with him if he were not contractually obligated

Louis desperately wants the world to know that he is gay and in love with Harry but is barred from explicitly saying either of these things

and so on.

Of course, just like with Louis, or Harry, or any other person NOT US, we cannot say for certain what another person is actually feeling, unless they state their feelings. However, it can be observed that when what I would call a “disconfirming event” occurs - that is, something that appears to challenge any of the above Larrie beliefs, or others that I haven’t listed above - Larries tend to spring into one or several actions, such as:

sending/receiving anons expressing confusion that these things are “still” happening when they should reasonably have stopped

expressing frustration with the ongoing situation

expressed desires to delete or leave fandom

expressions of boredom or fatigue

increased interest in other fandoms and/or requests for recommendations about other fandoms

expressions of hostility towards anons, antis (who, it must be noted, did not and could not have made the disconfirming event occur) or fandom in general (“surrounded by idiots” rhetoric)

expressions of hostility towards Simon, Louis, his friends, family, significant others, and/or the all-encompassing “They”

That is to say, Larries themselves state in their own words that they are discontented following many of these occurrences. What I would suggest, given these examples, is that although they acknowledge their unhappiness, they fail to consider they might be experiencing it due to the conflict they hold in their minds between what they believe to be true and what they observe to be true.

For larries, this cognitive dissonance might be represented as:

apparent reality =/= larrie worldview

All of this may sound obvious as a summary of anti belief about the cognitive dissonance I think Larries experience and demonstrate, but I am laying it out here to provide for a contrast, because larries, as in the link I referenced at the very beginning of this essay, ALSO argue that antis experience cognitive dissonance. So I’m going to explore that now.

My initial reaction, when seeing that larries think we experience cognitive dissonance, is to wonder two things:

what we could possibly be experiencing dissonance about?

how we are demonstrating that experience of dissonance?

For the sake of argument, I’ll start with point number 2). Larries have taken to, when events “disconfirming” larrie beliefs occur, stating that antis are “pressed” or upset about those events, and talking about it as though this is a given. Since it is typical that antis provide links to or screencaps of larrie behavior when discussing the mood expressed, and larries do not do the same when discussing anti behavior, it is difficult to confirm the “pressed” state of antis; I have yet to see any of the antis or non-larries I know express dismay or discouragement when Louis tweets about or posts pictures of Freddie, or says something that reinforces that he is a father, for example.

One might think that the larrie argument would mirror that of the antis: that is to say, when ANTIS experience what larries would consider a “disconfirming event” of ANTI belief (for example, that Louis is Freddie’s father and loves Freddie, but he has been physically distant from Freddie for some nonzero period of time) we antis would experience dissonance. But that is not what the post referred to in the first link is saying. It is saying that ALTHOUGH what antis believe and the apparent reality are in sync, we STILL experience dissonance.

So, back to 1): what dissonance?

As an anti, this perplexed me for a long while. How can I experience dissonance when the idea that I have is continuously confirmed by what I observe (which, I might add, are actual actions on the part of Louis)? If I believe that Louis has a son because he said that he has a son, and he continues to say he has a son and demonstrate that he has a son [more on that in a bit], what are the conflicting ideas? Do Larries view increased anti post activity or more agitated or excited blogging as “protesting too much?”

I realize now how much of the Larrie worldview depends upon both the instinctual distrust of everything that they see (that disconfirms their worldview) AND the belief that this distrust has NOTHING to do with their worldview, that it is healthy, natural, and a sign of intelligence. (If you are thinking that these contradictory ideas in and of themselves must cause cognitive dissonance, I would have to say I agree). This feeds into why I think Larries freely label non-larries, antis, the general public, etc. as stupid - they believe we are obtusely suppressing natural (to larries) cynicism in order to believe a preferred narrative, and that that (larrie-derived) cynicism is perfectly agnostic in its origins. They insist, as they must, that the larrie position is the neutral, agnostic position, because it is foundational to their worldview.

This is why everything surrounding 1D, their careers, and their personal lives, is shady. When to the world, Louis says he has a son, Larries think: that’s not possible, what reason could there be for him telling the world he has a son, there must be something revealing in his method for sharing this, there must be a goal to be achieved for someone in this charade - because they have pre-existing reasons to believe these things. I touch on this in my essay Do You Believe Everything the Media Tells You which elaborates on the opposite perspective, and suggests, after considering multiple options, that there is no historical precedent or evidence-based reason to lie about something like having an unplanned child with someone.

So to Larries, most people, larrie and non-larrie, “recognize the shadiness” of what it means to, as I mentioned before, “demonstrate that [Louis] has a son” and they define it in such a way that it is always things that Louis has not done, or such that he has never demonstrated them adequately (a real father would take such a picture, a real father would pose in such a way, a real father would say more, or less, etc.). They argue from a point of view that this is evident, and that antis experience dissonance because we “recognize” that Louis’s fatherhood is “shady” in the same ways that they do, and suppress or repress that knowledge. And then (perhaps, because I don’t know what behavior larries refer to when they say we are “pressed”), larries imagine that we speak excitedly about the apparent reality in an attempt to give it integrity, and minimize our dissonance.

So for antis the cognitive dissonance would be:

apparent reality =/= inherent shadiness that we recognize but suppress

According to this model, part of the disconnect is that larries and antis aren’t even comparing the same things when we talk about that which causes dissonance, and antis don’t even acknowledge “shadiness” as a THING that exists. On the other hand, Larries recognize “apparent reality” as a THING that exists, but as something that is constructed and performed either for their benefit or to break Louis’ spirit or to make money for 1DHQ or to contradict or demoralize larries, etc.

Antis observe larrie behavior and conclude that it results from the stress of dissonance they are experiencing; larries begin with the premise that antis experience the stress of dissonance, and attempt to find signs of that stress in our behavior.

It’s worth noting that conspiracy theorists as a whole - and larries are indeed conspiracy theorists - constantly exist in this state of dissonance that we observe in larries. The entire foundation of the conspiracies that conspiracy theorists believe in depends upon “apparent reality” being a fabrication and deception by outside forces and powers; that what we see or think we see is deliberately placed there and made to look that way, and that only the conspiracy theorists know and understand the “truth.”

Moon landing deniers would experience this same discomfort due to the dissonance caused every time footage of the moon landing is shown (the “disconfirming” evidence") or whenever a speaker or writer refers to NASA’s capabilities in “putting humans on the moon” and so on. Similarly, they would argue that the rest of humanity MUST ALSO experience the same stress associated with “noticing” the “inconsistencies” around the moon landing, and suppress or repress this discomfort in order to display confidence in the status quo.

In short, there is a clear distinction between what Larries openly claim to believe and apparent reality that could cause dissonance for them, which becomes displayed when “disconfirming” events occur and they openly express their frustration/dismay/anger/hostility etc. However, since what antis openly claim to believe and apparent reality are aligned, Larries insert a dissonant belief (that they openly claim to hold) between the two, assert that antis hold that belief as well IN SECRET, and use it to formulate their own cause of dissonance for antis, who do not openly express frustration/dismay/anger/hostility at “disconfirming” events.

In only one of these cases is anyone assuming the beliefs of others, and assuming that those beliefs are opposed to that group’s stated beliefs; it is no surprise that this is what the Larries are doing, given that much of their worldview depends on refusing to accept individual testimony about what is being personally felt or experienced.

[anticonspiracist]

Has anyone checked on the larries after that tweet 😂?

I've done a spot check of my very favorite haters, shit posters, and most loyal conspiracists, and if you remember at all what happened in the wake of the bullshit tweet or have read up on it (WHICH HAPPENED JUST OVER 11 YEARS AGO BTW), the vibe is *exactly* the same, just contained to a smaller blast radius.

And I do mean *exactly* the same. Parmageddon is the new "I ship bullshit," he didn't really make the tweet himself, Harry did x on y day so this is damage control (and other coincidence seeking), blah blah 'I've been here forever nothing fazes me it's just funny,' honestly just choose your Larrie Cope Greatest Hits from whatever day in history and they're all there.

It's simply a shrinking chorus.

Freddie's gonna be EIGHT, isn't that amazing!? In a couple of years he's gonna be able to do the same thing on whatever shit platform a sorry billionaire has propped up for people to use by then! *wipes tear*