#They completely dismissed Belos' motivations

[imminent-danger-came]

I think what I love about the 3x14 "To pain" scene so much is that it's not as much about the Lady Bone Demon and MK being motivated from the same place, as it is that their intent doesn't matter. It's full on doomed by the narrative—trying to do right or wrong, it all only leads to one thing: to pain. That's the inevitable end. Both MK and LBD "fight for what they think is right", but they're also both doomed to cause more suffering, and that's what makes them similar.

LBD thought she could end all suffering if she created a clean slate, and MK thought HE could end all suffering if he just stopped LBD, or Spider Queen, or DBK. But that isn't possible. You can't prevent pain, or change past mistakes, or fix the world. All you can do is move forward. And you can still love a world filled with pain and suffering. You can still love people who cause pain and suffering.

#HOWEVER. You can also have good and bad people be motivated from the same place and do completely different things with that motivation. #That's something that annoys me about the TOH finale tbh #They completely dismissed Belos' motivations #Going ''naw Luz and Belos WEREN'T motivated by the same desire to save humanity/their families'' was so :/ #You know bad people can be motivated by things like love right #that doesn't change that they're bad #just that things are more complex #anyways #toh critical #since I complained in the tags #lmk #lego monkie kid #monkie kid #lmk MK #lmk LBD #lmk Lady Bone Demon #to pain #lmk analysis #imp tag

[let-us-cultivate-our-garden]

The reason why the toh fandom can have such wildly diverging interpretations of the Wittebane story is because the show did not do its job. How old was Philip when Caleb left? Did Caleb truly believe in witch hunting or was he just playing along to what the town expected? Did Caleb ever tell Philip anything? Did he ever talk to his brother and try to change his mind? How long was Philip searching for Caleb? How did he get cursed? How exactly did the knife fight start? Did Philip kill Caleb accidentally or on purpose? Did he kill him only because he married a witch or because he left him? Or both?

The fact is, we don't have definitive answers to any of these. We only have educated guesses based on portraits barely glimpsed in the show that lack any context, Masha's barebones version of events, and Belos' self-justifications. Casual fans shouldn't have to be knee-deep in fandom just to get the main villain's backstory, especially when said story is the literal basis of the whole plot.

Plus, if you're going to spend the final half of your last season barely exploring the villain's origins, only to completely ignore it in the series finale, then you've written a bad ending.

Update: This is getting some notes so I'm including additional thoughts to the original post. The rest will be under the read more:

Just to add onto this because some folks argue that we don’t need his backstory because we already have the essentials or it’s not really important to the plot. The thing is though is that Belos’ story launches the entire plot of the show, his character and motivation are the direct result of actions that happened centuries before the main characters were born. It needs to be depicted and not largely inferred. 

His story is important to creating a more fleshed out character and can strengthen the themes of the show (the rivalry between Eda and Lilith and Luz struggling to fit in at home are parallels to Belos). Instead the show gives little kernels of his story and character that make him more interesting than just Evil Emperor (the fact that the brothers became witch hunters to fit in, the fact that Belos worst memories are of killing Caleb and making grimwalkers are never touched on again). The first (and last) time we see Caleb in a full scene is in For the Future and it has huge implications for the dynamic between the two brothers. But again, nothing is done with it. It seemed like the show was building up that Belos’ lies and self-justifications would lead to his undoing but it doesn’t. So him dying with his ideology and self-delusions intact feels empty.

The worst part of how the Wittebane story is handled is that since it’s largely inferred and you have to be pretty involved in fandom to have a more nuanced take of it, a casual fan can easily just accept other characters’ views on the matter. Masha says “looks like little bro was jealous of big bro” and it undercuts the story of the Wittebanes (to say nothing of the tonal whiplash). The Titan dismisses Belos as only caring for himself and to be the hero, which while technically true, misses a lot of context and makes it easy to dismiss Belos as a whole as simply being evil and crazy instead of a more layered villain. And it can’t be argued that these are just the characters’ perspectives and we shouldn’t take it at face value because there’s nothing really in the show to pushback against that. 

Now, yes, it is fun to imagine how the Wittebane story played out and in hindsight, it’s probably better that the show didn’t depict the entire story because they probably would have botched it. But the point remains that the handling of this storyline was a mess (and don’t give me the cancellation excuse, the show learned early on about this and wrote all of 2B with it in mind). The Wittebane story and Belos as a whole showcase why setup and payoff matter. You show the villain feels guilt about their worst deeds? What’s the payoff to that? The villain was originally an outsider who tried to fit in and conformed to a town’s toxic ideologies? What’s the payoff? The villain continually lies to himself and commits atrocities to justify his actions? What’s the payoff? 

If you’re going to raise interesting and thought-provoking questions then don’t give the audience a simplistic answer.

#toh critical #toh criticism #the owl house #emperor belos #philip wittebane #caleb wittebane #I don't want to hear any nonsense about belos not “deserving” a proper ending #if you spend two episodes adding new information and context #then that needs to pay off for the audience somehow #long post #post update

[jess-the-vampire]

I have seen ppl dismiss Matthew Rhy's quote on belos being ,"Misunderstood not Evil", that he was wrong and probably just didn't know more at the time or interpreted his words as meaning something different.

But I actually do think he meant what he said.

Regardless of how evil his actions are, HM makes his motivations far more clear, that belos thinks he's "stopping evil" and "saving humanity ". Considering he was raised in a puritan witch hunting community, the fact he came to this conclusion makes complete sense for him.

If he was raised on this mindset, then of course he sees his actions as righteous and not evil, he's been taught to think that way for his entire life up till that point.

In belos's mind, he thinks he's doing this to protect people, the people on earth to be exact.

He's trying to be a hero and not understanding he's actually the villian.

Its not about his actions, its about his motivations, before it was easy to misunderstand him as just being your typical selfish evil tyrant .

He's misunderstood because he's not any of that, his actions are evil to us because we can't fathom someone thinking this way, but if you're thinking about things from his point of view...then you're seeing a guy who believes he's doing the right thing and saving people he cares about because its all he knows and it has spirled him into getting worse and worse, all in the name of "protecting" people who are both long dead and no longer care about any of that.

And thats a tragic part of character, that this all is a waste of his time, but he doesn't know that, and doing all of this has unknowingly ruined his life because he thought he was being a hero.

#the owl house #toh #emperor belos #philip wittebane

[toa-kirhan]

First time watching ToH S1E5 (Covention). Thoughts below:

Detailed thoughts:

... I’m really starting to understand why everyone’s so into this series now. If I was impressed by the episodes that came before this then I can’t wait to see what else this series has in store! This episode brought a lot of plot points together in setting up the overarching story so there’s a lot to discuss here.

The coven system explains the distinction between wild and ‘proper’ magic, why Eda is such a wanted criminal, and why she’s the ‘greatest witch in the Boiling Isles’. The coven system seems to work in tandem with the magic schools to control and regulate what magic witches can learn, keeping them mixing types of magic, and thus, becoming too powerful and challenging the Emperor.

While we don’t see the Emperor, the way he rule the Boiling Isles says a lot about who he is. From the Conformatorium to the covens, its clear that the Emperor is a controlling figure with their own preconceived notions of how society in the Boiling Isles should be organized and how magic should be used, given that he’s willing to have people arrested for things as small as writing fanfiction and placing 1 trillion snail bounties on the covenless.

From what little we see of it, the Emperor’s Coven, looks to be a paramilitary youth wing meant to recruit the best witches and turn them into ideological zealots willing to do anything to advance his cause. For that reason, they’re the only ones trusted to retain all their magical powers. I have a feeling that the EC and Lilith are going to be the main antagonists that our heroes will be fighting over the course of the series.

We only get a glimpse of Eda and Lilith’s relationship, but it’s clear the two aren’t on the best of terms. While their two wildly divergent paths in life are already a clear indicator of that, the way Lilith snapped at Eda’s prodding shows that there’s a lot of friction between the two. However, Lilith still cares about her sister, given that she didn’t turn her in (at first), wants her to join the EC w/ her, and willing to talk things over about her curse (which she knows about?).

Based on both of their comments, Lilith has completely bought into the Emperor’s ideology and thinks that what she’s doing is for the best for her sister. Meanwhile, Eda(lyn) has completely rejected the rigidity of the coven system in favor of being her own witch, even if it comes at the cost of becoming a fugitive from the law (which she seems to be doing quite well).

The ending also gives us a scene between Lilith and Kikimora, who seems to be a Lilith’s personal retainer, keeping track of her actions and giving her instructions from the Emperor. Apparently Belos has promised something to Lilith for capturing her sister.

This episode also gives us Amity’s motivations: she wants to be part of the EC and has been training her whole life for it. As I thought, Amity’s academic and magical prowess is a key part of her self worth because the EC only accepts the best of the best. Every humiliation that Amity experiences and honor that she misses out on represents her dream, her lifelong goal slipping away from her into the hands of those she views as undeserving.

Amity needed Willow to give her the top student badge, needed to hear Luz admit that she wasn’t a witch, and couldn’t stand herself cheating because if she was beaten by someone who hasn’t worked for as hard and long as her, if she wasn’t actually the best witch, then who was she?

When Amity hears Luz agree with her, she doesn’t know how to respond and can only sit and watch as Luz uses her own form of magic. While she is quick to dismiss Luz’s progress, Amity ultimately decides to let Luz go and put this incident behind her. I can only imagine how Amity will respond when she sees Luz next.

General thoughts:

So does Eda just set up shop in Bonesburough every weekend bc she knows the guards can never catch her? Iconic.

Once again, Eda realizes that her perspective on things is different from everyone else’s and is willing to walk back her opinion on covens to avoid bumming out Willow.

Eda’s list of weakness grows: first shiny things and now purple prose.

Setting the episode in a convention hall was a clever way to work around Luz’s ban from Hexside.

One trillion snails! Just think about how many that is! Do they give you one trillion of the same species, or are different species worth different amounts of snails?

Eda’s list of crime grows: misuse of magic, demonic misdemeanors, petty theft, and refusing to join a coven.

Unfortunately Eda, master of disguise, wasn’t able to keep the guards (and her sister) off her trail.

So there are 9 main covens? I can make out plant (green), abomination (pink), illusion (teal), fortune-telling (purple), and construction (brown). I’m guessing the others are telepathy (blue), fire/elemental/wood/owl (orange), sound/music (red), and light/alchemy (yellow).

So the eyeball eater from the first episode is a baker?

Glyphs are temporary tattoos! Cool!

Fuck it up Nose Girl!

The Emperor and his minions bring a bad name to the plague doctor aesthetic.

King is a true con-goer taking all the free swag.

Why Amity step on King’s cupcake :c

Amity accuses Luz of “giving witches a bad name,” but is she just projecting her own insecurities onto her?

So what’s the actual punishment for being convenless? Does the Emperor have a way of sealing away all of a witch’s magic?

Is Amity already part of the abomination coven? Gus seems to already be in illusion, and Willow will probably just/has already joined the plant one.

Eda’s been waiting a long time to have this fight with her sister.

So did Eda make Hooty? I’m certain that she made her staff.

#toh #toh season 1 #toh s1 #media analysis

[juiceastronaut]

If I can throw in my two cents about the whole Camila situation:

Honestly what I think is happening is people are projecting their own experiences a little too deeply onto Luz and vilifying Camila because they don't have a great relationship with their parents. I also think people's minds are jumping to the worst-case scenario of what the camp actually is (I don't think the answer is conversion therapy cmon guys this is a kid's show). The overall lesson in the Boiling Isles is that one needs to learn to consider the effect of their actions on others, especially if it's linked to one's creativity. It celebrates being different but also doesn't say that you can act any way you want because you're different. I think a lot of people are closer to Pilot Luz than they realize, and since they haven't gotten that reality check themselves, view these lessons for Luz as an attack on her, and thus an attack on themselves because they haven't learned that lesson yet. But anyway, back to the camp.

I think what's happening is people are getting really hung up about the "Think Inside the Box!" slogan from the first episode, which may seem to directly want to stifle kids' creativity. I think there are two explanations this can fall under, an in-universe one and an out-of-universe one. The in-universe explanation is that maybe the marketing team really sucks and in an attempt to be quirky and creative (look at us we're subverting a popular phrase!) it came off as really bad. The second explanation is, I don't think the Owl House team was thinking that far ahead when constructing the pilot, and how relevant the camp was going to be in later episodes, so they put a little joke in there to both get a laugh out of people, and to quickly solidify that Luz doesn't want to go to that camp and the reason for that. I think some light dismissal of earlier episodes is in order here, because a lot has happened between the pilot and now, and obviously, the reconstruction in Yesterday's Lie is the reality that the crew wants the viewers to go forward with. Maybe the camp wouldn't have even been that bad.

Maybe if Luz actually went she would've had a good time there. I think the more accurate interpretation is...maybe it did suck, but she would've still been able to garner good experiences from it, friends as well, so that going wouldn't have been all that bad, or at least not a living nightmare. Remind you of anyplace? (the answer is school). So maybe Luz would've had the reality check she needed, learning skills and making friends, and still have the camp be an unpleasant experience. I think those can both coexist, and I don't think the camp needs to be literal conversion therapy in order to achieve that. Okay, onto Camila.

Camila isn't perfect. I know people throw around that phrase a lot but I don't think you can find a more apt situation to apply this too. Carmilla, trying her best to do what's right by Luz, sometimes stumbles and does the exact opposite, but doing that out of love for Luz. I fully subscribe to the theory that the camp wasn't really her idea, and more of a suggestion by the school or Luz would have faced expulsion. Again, the pilot didn't really put weight on Luz's actions, but as of the most recent episode its obvious that Luz was close to receiving a very serious consequence by endangering people by bringing snakes and explosives into school. In the first few episodes it was a way to show that Luz was quirky and didn't fit in with the other kids, but as Luz has matured on the Boiling Isles that lets us revisit those scenarios in a different light. I'm sure Luz didn't see anything wrong with what she did, and the framing reflects that, maybe she'll feel differently now after the character growth she's gotten.

Camila loves that Luz is creative, and she loves her daughter for who she is. She even actively engages with Luz in her interests, as seen in Yesterdays's Lie. But as a parent its also Camilas responsibility to raise Luz into a person that can interact with society in a healthy way. Of course, that would be personally tailored to Luz as a person, and she shouldn't try to make Luz fit a certain standard, but that's not what's happening here.

Camila would be enabling Luz if she just allowed her to continue with these high stakes, highly dangerous expressions of "creativity" because Luz was posing a danger to others and to herself. I would actually say Camila would have been a bad parent if she made excuses for Luz's behavior and didn't do anything to curb that. Maybe camp wasn't 100% the best course of action to take, but at least she does something to make sure Luz feels the weight of her actions. I don't even think of the camp as a punishment per se, which is leaps and bounds above what any other parent would do in that situation (I'm under the belief that punishment isn't always the most effective way to facilitate behavior in children). Camila putting her foot down doesn't make her a bad parent, its what a parent should be doing in this situation!

By the end of the episode Yesterdays Lie, Camila's whole life was turned upside down. The person she thought was her daughter actually wasn't her daughter and her actual daughter chose to leave her and is now stuck in a completely different world where she can't reach or even talk to her. I think it's unfair to her to expect her to rationally react to that situation in any capacity. Her daughter left her and she desperately wanted her back, and was/is fearful of losing her again. That's why she made Luz promise to stay when she got back. She doesn't want to lose her again. She blames herself for driving her daughter away, probably for all the above reasons in relation to the camp, maybe for something else entirely.

The thing is, Luz didn't have enough time to explain to her mom what exactly went into her motivations to stay on the Boiling Isles. She wasn't even going to stay there permanently, she was going to go back when camp ended why? For her mom. She didn't want to be away from her any longer than she expected to be away. It was only after the whole Belos thing happened that she was stuck. But she didn't have the time to explain that. So essentially what Camila heard was "Im stuck over here with no way home and I chose that. for myself." Damn I'd get upset too! This whole thing is a misunderstanding I don't for one second think any situation where Camila forces her home to never see her friends again, or Luz being forced to break her promise and stay on the Isles forever is actually going to come to fruition. Luz will probably tell Camila about her time in the Isles and Camila will go "Oh my god I'm so happy you made friends, okay of course you can go back and forth" because I assume they'll have fixed/have another door by then.

In conclusion, Camila is an actual imperfect mother in the most literal sense, instead of saying someone's imperfect but never misstepping when it comes to taking care of her kids. She messes up, doesn't do the right thing because she's working against forces outside of her control or is having a very human reaction to a genuinely stressful situation. People are projecting their own home lives a little too much into Luz's situation which I think leads to people being harsher with Camila than she deserves. She's a good mom, and I think a realistic and complex character. Y'all are just mean.

Also anyone saying that Camila having a flip-flop (la chancla) in her purse is a sign that Luz is being abused...are you on crack? Is it crack you're smoking? No, but it's a haha shout out to the latino community it's not that deep oh my go--

#wholy guacamole i didn't expect to write that much #but yeah I really don't think Camilas treatment is fair or even all that deserved #people say they want complex characters then actually get one and immediately deem them as evil #that's literally what's happening here. #cut her a break she's a woman trying her best #camila noceda #luz noceda #the owl house

[fermented-writers-block]

Lus and the Human Portal Clone Theory

Even before Keeping Up A-fear-ances aired, I have been working for almost a year now on running through all the possible various suspects with wonderful folks like @sepublic​ , @anistarrose​ , and @elementalist-kdj​ . Like the post title indicates, from sheer process of elimination, the only conclusion that made sense to me was a clone made of Luz by the portal door, and I’ve been working on refining and reworking said conclusion up to the version I will lay out here.

Now, as @safetayy​ , @theowlhouseheadcanons , and @50shades-of-blue have heard from me before, the portal I've long suspected was not made to go from the Demon Realm to the Human Realm, but rather to go from the Human Realm to the Demon Realm by humans, for humans. This is because it then could tie into the hypothetical existence of a Luz clone without having the issue of asking where Eda, Lilith, and King's clones are, as the clone in this case is the result of a function of the door to create a basic level duplicate of any human that passes through it rather than it happening for just anyone that passes through.

With this, it's because the suitcase form of the portal looks as thought it indicates it was used for temporary trips to the Demon Realm, much like how suitcases were used when railways and international boats made travel more accessible for the middle and lower classes. For example:

Going by the way the door “faces” and the way it swings open, the ergonomics of the portal makes it look an awful lot like a right handed out swing door, with the Human Realm on the “inside” and the Demon Realm on the “outside.” And the arrow in the diagram depicts the general direction of traffic that such right handed, out swing doors are typically design with in mind - ergo, showing what way the portal appears to facilitate travel in.

Now, before you ask, the reason why I think the portal could have been created in the human realm in the first place is that it might require an extra component/bit of help or two from the Owl Deity which I’ve discussed before in the past as hinted by these connected designs:

I’ll explore how I feel the revelation that such a twist about the portal’s origins could play into the themes and narrative of the show under the cut, but overall, I feel these are potential significant details to keep in mind for the rest of this arc of building a new door and handling the idea of Lus having initially been made as a temporary-duration clone, hence how "Luz" comes off so uncannily in the letters as she wasn't meant for long term impersonations.

That, and why I named this the Human Portal Clone theory, for those wondering about the name.

Alongside this, my thought has been that walking back through the portal to the Human Realm basically makes the portal send a recall signal to tell the clone to return to it, where the clone would be reabsorbed into the portal and its memories are given to the original. However, with Luz going back into the Demon Realm for a brief time in YBOS, I am of the mind that it doesn’t just make another clone, but rather that doing so merely made the door turn off the recall signal and allowed "Lus" to resume the impersonation.

And as for the clone itself and why they’re writing letters to Camila, well, imagine it from Lus' perspective. To her at the time of creation, the last thing she probably knew was that she had been chasing the cute little owl that took her Azura book into the woods, and right when the bus to Reality Check Camp was about to arrive.

Also, if you think about it, Lus being the work of someone we/don’t know yet raises way more plot threads/questions than answers compared to being the work of the portal, as outlined below:

TLDR at end of post for those wondering

Belos? How and why before YBOS where he actually started paying attention to Luz for the first time and actually got his hands on a portal? 

Eda? Why would she do all this and not tell Luz she can goof around without needing to worry about her mom or the camp/in time to fool the camp, especially when it took a good amount of time for Eda to even start feeling that close to Luz? 

Hooty got ruled out from the getgo since he can’t hold pencils, King just isn’t that subtle, and everyone else that Luz knows has the major issues of just straight up not knowing about the camp in the first place. Well, that and a lack of another known method of getting to the Human Realm in the first place.

The camp? Why would they worry about a missing camper whose disappearance is all HER fault and thus would more logically result in a call to her parent than some convoluted clone conspiracy? 

And finally, some currently completely unknown third party?

If we’re talking a Changeling, A) it’d be easy for Luz to dismiss them and B) that just makes all the ominous portrayal of Lus super straightforward instead of a subversion like is the show’s shtick.

If we’re talking dimensional counterparts, A) they have to REALLY have led a very similar life to Luz’s in order for there to be enough common ground for Luz to listen, and B) dimensional counterparts aren’t even a confirmed or likely thing that people cooked up from Episode 1 side characters influenced by Amity’s concept art.

And if we’re talking some complete surprise third party group or another, it doesn’t make sense to introduce a third party and their motives and plans to the show this late in when Belos is already taking up the bulk of it all.

Hell, if anything, the continued existence of the duplicate in of itself would indicate that the target of the conspiracy is none other than Camila Noceda than anything to do with Luz or Eda, especially with the complete lack of anyone taking advantage of Luz and or Eda. 

From the getgo, Witches Before Wizards already hard-baked into the show the idea that Luz is NOT inherently special or anything into the foundations of the show from the getgo - ergo, Camila likely just is an absolutely regular human being, someone who has no justification for such a convoluted conspiracy to surround them.

That said, I believe that the idea of the portal having originated from the Human Realm could potentially play into some interesting stories to be had with Camila and Lus here, especially as the conspiracy board shot from the promo was confirmed by Dana to apparently be from S2A, not from the episodes past Yesterday’s Lie:

After all, with Luz searching the library for a way home this coming episodes, perhaps she might figure out something the next couple of episodes that allows her texts to send through, which would logically lead to the above picture. That, and Camila and Lus being confused by and trying to figure out what’s going on there.

I mean, the cabin in the woods likely has a very close connection to the portal and it’s origins given how closely tied the two structures seem to be, and as far as we can tell, Luz never mentioned the cabin in her videos to Camila, but if Lus tries to retrace her steps, that would be a natural vector to lead Camila to the cabin and thus allow us a chance to actually investigate it.

That said, all following the trail would do is lead her and Lus to a dead end at the abandoned cabin, where they would have nothing else to do except discuss their complicated relationship concerning Luz and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for Luz to finish things on her end - which while something I think would be interesting to see, I just don’t see how much of a way to keep them in the greater picture of the show without some kind of project or activity that the two of them could work together on on screen. 

And that’s what leads me to a particular train of thought here, starting with the question of what if Luz FAILS to make a working portal over the course of S2A and such?

With the possible in-universe mystery over what the heck is going on with Lus, perhaps the cabin might hold some notes from the original last human owner - if not potentially the creator - of Eda’s portal as well as potentially some of the same materials and such from previous trips.

Cue CAMILA building a working portal, following in the footsteps of the original creator and such and thus finding a reason to stay on screen, all the while potentially demonstrating both why Belos wanted the portal instead of making his own, as well as diving into the Owl Deity’s connection with the original portal. Heck, maybe the Owl Deity is only accessible in the Human Realm and that plays a part in Belos wanting to get to the Human Realm, which would bring Camila directly into contact with the magic her daughter has been interacting with.

Also, just imagine the internal conflict going on here with Lus. After all, helping Camila build a portal to get the original Luz -and hoo boy would that be a tough thing to grapple with- would most definitely do that and make both Lus AND Camila question how much the latter likes Lus vs Luz.

Like, just imagine it. There would be major chances for Lus and Camila to discuss what would happen if and when they’re finished with the portal, and what will happen to Lus’ relationship with Camila if and when Luz gets back.

Does Camila really prefer her daughter to be all more “normal” like Lus, or does she prefer the old, “weird” daughter from before the summer with Luz?

Perhaps she might be able to figure out how to strike a nuanced balance between the two, and all on a metaphorical journey to truly build a better connection between her and her daughter(s?). 

TLDR: Or in short, I can’t help but feel it would be fitting to see Camila building a bridge WITH Lus TO Luz. 

Particularly, by being the one to craft an actual working portal in the Human Realm instead of Luz in the Demon Realm, showing a parent putting in an active effort to get down to their child’s level rather than waiting for said child to try to get up to their parent’s level even if they can’t or find it incredibly hard to do so.

#the owl house #the owl house theory #owl house theory #toh theory #toh #owl deity hooty theory #camila noceda #lus #lus noceda #luz noceda #toh speculation #the owl house speculation