#but i fucking hate that term it's so 00s livejournal

[zuzuslastbraincell]

IMO, if you’re going to criticise the way zukka’s booming popularity ties into the racialised fetishisation of mlm (great article on this as a phenomenon here), you should make that the core focus of your critique? I’ve seen some takes recently that try to critique it from additional angles but I feel these arguments are 1. borne out frustration 2. flawed 3. miss the point.

For example, I’ve seen some posts criticising zukka that are frustrated with people not for giving the canon wlw representation in the avatar universe the same kind of popularity and attention. I’m sympathetic to this frustration (I share it), but I think framing it in this way fails to recognise that neither of these ships are in ATLA itself. One is from a different show, that has far more inconsistent and arguably poorer writing, whose world-building has been critiqued from anti-imperialist perspectives and anti-capitalist perspectives multiple times, and critically, the canon wlw ship, while groundbreaking in children’s animation for its time, was poorly developed and foreshadowed. While you could attribute this to disputes with the executives at nicklelodeon, it doesn’t change the fact that as a viewer it’s not as compelling as it could have been. I personally love korrasami but I think there are good reasons to be disappointed or underwhelmed by its portrayal, there are good reasons why fans might not care much for Legend of Korra; indeed there are ATLA fans who haven’t even watched LoK. The other pairing is from a spin-off novel series about an important minor character, which hasn’t received anywhere near the publicity as ATLA or LoK. Again, I adore Rangi/Kyoshi, but we should be realistic about how much we expect casual viewers to read a spin-off novel series and how much attention it should garner without its own TV series. To some extent we need to be realistic – why should we expect people who are fans of ATLA, and only ATLA, to give as much attention to ships that are not part of ATLA?

I’ve also seen some posts that question why people don’t find the canonical m/f relationships appealing, and urge people to reconsider them, often stating gay =/= better, or more politically correct. While it’s true that liking ships absolutely should not be a measurement of how progressive you are, I find this perspective fails to recognise that there are actual genuine critiques that you could level at kataang, sukka, and maiko respectively? In each case you could make an argument for lack of development, that these relationships tend to centre the male character and their feelings? There are genuine reasons why viewers might be put off by these dynamics (in fact, there is no obligation for them to care, there never is), and I think we shouldn’t overcorrect and ignore the flaws in the dynamics’ canonical depiction that people might take issue with. I am also skeptical of the implication offered by this line of critique, where these canonical m/f relationships are all more politically correct – even if that’s true, I really don’t think that a lone is a good reason why people should be more invested in them (especially if the viewer finds their dynamic otherwise uncompelling flat etc.). We shouldn’t confuse shipping children’s TV characters with activism; taking an anti-imperialist, anti-racist, and feminist approach to media is more to do with accountability than activism and about ensuring fandom cultures do not only only cater to white cishet men. 

The last argument I’ve seen recently has been to do with the fact that mailee shouldn’t be compared too closely with zukka – agreed, in that they’re very different dynamics, and again, I can understand the frustration there. But mailee is not “more canonical” than zukka simply because the former were childhood friends. Firstly, neither of these relationships are canonical (may I remind you that Mai ends up with Zuko). Furthermore, there also no firm, rock solid, near indisputable evidence that Mai and Ty lee always cared for each other more deeply or fully than Azula; there is no firm, rock solid, near indisputable evidence that Mai and Ty lee always knew they were going to betray Azula and were leading her on the whole damn time. This is an interpretation of the text based on some circumstantial evidence and body language. It is a potentially an interesting, compelling interpretation of the text that has some limited evidence suggesting it could be true - but it ultimately relies on conjecture and extrapolation. It is not canon. There is also space for an interpretation of the text where Mai and Ty Lee never particularly liked each other or understood each other, and largely tried to get along for Azula’s sake. We should be careful to ensure that we don’t treat our headcanons as if they are ironclad canonical fact. There is space for a variety of interpretations of Mai and Ty Lee’s dynamic and to call it “more canonical” presents an interpretation of mailee as fact in a way I think not only is just kidding ourselves / exaggerating what we saw on screen, but also I think doesn’t allow for alternate interpretations that more broadly, impacts fandom negatively.

Like, ultimately I feel that all of these arguments are flawed, but also I think they miss the point! None of these things have much to do with zukka’s sudden popularity or why a lot of interpretations of zukka delve into racist fetishisation and mlm fetishisation. If you want to criticise zukka and its sudden rise in popularity, talk about the key factors at play. Talk about how migratory shippers latch on to new fandoms without much care for the context and detail of the source text, treating characters like blank slates they can attach tropes to without regard to their actual characterisation, either latching onto white characters no matter how minor their role is, or, as in the case of atla, either erasing & “whitening” the cultural background of the characters or just perpetuating racist perspectives.

We could also talk about how there is not much space or resources in fandom in general for wlw ships and discussions and spaces. We could talk about how women are more willing to work with and interpret male characters than vice versa, in part due to the lack of interiority and complexity often given to female characters in children’s animation historically but also due to misogyny and the male audience’s unwillingness to treat women like people even when presented with complex and layered female characters. We could also talk about the history of whiteness in fandom and how the source text was written by white american men and is a limited western interpretation of asian cultures and how that impacts the fandom and the reception and treatment of said cultures.

Like. I think there are more important factors at play and we shouldn’t make these flawed arguments simply out of frustration that what we care about and what we’re passionate about isn’t getting the reception we think it deserves. Because I get most of this, most of these arguments are borne out of frustration, but we shouldn’t exaggerate, mistate the case, or leave no room for critique.

#long post #i have no idea how to tag this #this is probably fandom wank ? #but i fucking hate that term it's so 00s livejournal #anyway i'm just frustrated by seeing these arguments

[forestwater87]

Tales of Fandom Past: Harry Potter and the Shipping Slaves

So, in my spare time I read a lot, lot . . . lot of fandom_wank. A lot. More than should be possible, considering it’s a dead website linking mostly to other dead websites, but I’m a woman addicted to drama who has the gift of long periods of quiet at work, so I’m working my way through almost 2 decades of fan history and it’s just fascinating.

Fandom, back in the ‘00s? Was so much more wild than it is now.

Plagiarism! Fake suicides! Fraud! Theft of real people’s actual money! Stalkers, both real and made up! Fanfic writers so popular they finagled it into mountains of free stuff and a book deal! Everyone was really gross and homophobic! 

There were no rules, and that made it a terrible and incredibly fun time to be part of a fandom.

And we’re not talking enough about it. I guess that’s where I come in.

I’m interested in telling these stories -- not in the incredible level of detail of the MsScribe Saga or the Cassie Claire Plagiarism Debacle, but enough for us to all have a moment to think: Hold on, what the fuck was fandom doing during the entirety of the Bush administration?

A lot, it turns out. Much of it totally wild.

Today’s topic: Shipping wars are as bad as slavery

Date: August 2005

Fandom: Harry Potter

Supposed topic(s): Shipping, canon

Content warning(s): Accidental and ironic diminishing of slavery, complaints about political correctness and free speech, racism in general, lots of hurt feelings and drama

"Now, I'm not black, but boy, do I feel for the black people. If I lived in the 1800's, I wouldn't keep slaves, and if someone has a difference of opinion than me now, that's fine, believe what you want."

Background

In August of 2005, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince had been out for a little less than a month, the film version of The Goblet of Fire wouldn’t come out until November, and the last Potter movie had been released over a year ago. In terms of shipping, fans had just discovered, to either their delight or horror, that Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione were canon; while some would continue to hold out hope that there would be a last-minute reversal of expectations, most of the fandom both on and off the internet was in agreement: 

The shipping wars were over, and the Harry/Hermione fans (a.k.a., H/Hr fen, or “Harmonians”) had decisively lost.

The Harmonians’ ire seemed to have been pretty evenly split between J.K. Rowling -- who they felt had let them down -- and the R/Hr and H/G shippers (a.k.a. “Herons” and “Chocolateers,” respectively, though I’m not sure anyone actually used those terms for themselves; they appear to have been given from without), who were taking a victory lap. Depending on one’s perspective, this was either a long-overdue celebration by two groups of shippers who’d faced the fandom’s ire for approximately 5 years and were now vindicated, or it was the tactless gloating of sore losers who were thrilled to get one over on their hated enemies. Either way, tensions were no lower just because canon had decided the victors, and the battleground seemed to shift from the books to the movies -- where shippers of all kinds were in debate over which romance would win out onscreen.

Enter Emerson Spartz, a teenager in charge of one of the most popular fansites at the time and king of creating controversy . . . who had very strong opinions about shipping, and Harmonians in particular.

The Inciting Incident

Emerson had already incited the ire of Harmonians by calling them “delusional” in an infamous interview with J.K. Rowling. The wound was still raw, having come shortly after the release of Half-Blood Prince, and in some circles Emerson was already Public Enemy #1.

Therefore, when Emerson was one of two “anti”-Harmonians interviewed in a San Francisco Chronicle article about the shipping wars, some fans cried foul.

More responses can be found in a summary of the incident here, but personal favorites include a letter sent to the author of the SF Chronicle piece:

The majority of Harry/Hermione shippers are not merely upset that we didn't get what we wanted in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. That makes us sound childish. While I'm forced to admit that there has been much bile and vitriol posted on various H/Hr shipping sites, the majority of us are reasonable people. What really hurt our feelings was the way the Mugglenet/TLC article made it seem as if J. K. Rowling herself felt we were really dense, missing her "anvil-sized clues." Emerson's subsequent "apology" for the harsh words directed at the Harry/Hermione 'shipper community was a non-apology, which you [the author of the SFC article] would have known if you had done more than just take his word that he apologized. He simply used the "apology" as an opportunity to issue another dig. I suppose not much better can be expected from a child of 18 who has suddenly become a bit of a celebrity. But I do expect better from a colleague; a professional writer. ...

You have assisted one side of the argument and failed to represent the other. Did you attempt to interview the webmasters of any Harry/Hermione shipping sites or did you merely cut and paste posts that were pointed out to you by Emerson and Melissa? Your article shows no evidence that you made any attempt to give the other side equal time, so to speak, and as a result, you have contributed to the perceprtion [sic] that ALL H/Hr 'shippers are irrational, bitter, spoiled brats. And that's quite unfair. (Hughes, 2005, paras. 13 & 18)

Or this comment in a Harmonian forum by a disappointed reader: 

History is written by the victorius [sic] (or something like that), isn't it how the saying goes?. I'm afraid we are witnessing it firsthand. Herons feel they are the winners on this war, and as such, they feel they have a right to treat us anyway they want to, and they think we have no weapons to defend ourselves since even J.K seems to have sided with them. Even if most of us are pretty reasonable people, at this point anything we say in regards of J.K's apparent disregard for our feelings (thoughts, opinions, whatever), will be gladly taken as the lashing out of sore losers. ::sigh:: I say, just ignore Emerson, he's just some lost kid desperate for attention. And how good can the guy who wrote this article be if he didn't bother to check the facts before he went slandering us?, not much me thinks. (Remolina, 2005, para. 21)

These responses, while perhaps silly or overblown, were not enough to make history. That honor belonged to a Harmonian going by the username Panther.

How, one might wonder?

The Blowout

Ya know, come to think of it, people like Emerson were probably the kinda people that started slavery. I mean, think about it, they thought the slaves were animals, just because they had different colored skin. Emerson thinks we're stupid and delusional for having different beliefs. Get the similarities here, people? Now, I'm not black, but boy, do I feel for the black people. If I lived in the 1800's, I wouldn't keep slaves, and if someone has a difference of opinion than me now, that's fine, believe what you want. (Panther, 2005, paras. 23-25)

The reaction was immediate and explosive from Panther’s fellow Harmonians. Some understood and empathized with Panther’s view; they saw it as a bit hyperbolic, but agreed with the underlying point being made.

I can see where they were going with this...a different analogy would probably have been better. Maybe the religious persecution during Mary Tudor's reign, or the Salem Witch Hunt/Trials, the religous [sic] crusades, the wars in Bosnia etc. We harmonians are being "persecuted" for our differening viewpoints/perspectives. (Anndee Granger, 2005, paras. 30-32)

The belief that H/Hr shippers were being persecuted for their beliefs was a pervasive one, and extended to fans, Emerson and other fandom “authorities,” and the author herself.

No, what we are experiencing is not at the same extreme level because of the world we now live in, but the base level is still the same. The base level taking us back to different beliefs and views without the ability to be heard in the correct manner, and yes it does feel like a form of persecution. (*Under your Skin, 2005, paras. 36-37)

While not on the same level as slavery, the intolerance of their ship did call to mind other examples of discrimination and bigotry:

Of course no one is dying because of this, but all in all we are being persecuted for our different beliefs. "Bloody" Mary Tudor, killed Protestants because she so hated their different views on Christ. This is an extreme indeed, but the mentality behind it, the vitrol [sic], is the same. (Andee Granger, 2005, para. 38)

This extreme point of view, while widespread, was not universal among the Harmonians. Many of them were . . . understandably appalled by the comment and those agreeing with it:

No wonder other people find it easy to portray us as reactionary and vicious. Some of you bloody well are. (jane99, 2005, para. 43)

I agree that it is very vicious and out in left field . . . Slavery was an oppressive movement for hundreds of years, resulting in the deaths of millions. I would hardly regard that with 'shipper treatment, nowadays. However, the schoolyard bully is a very appropriate analogy, in my opinion. Hopefully you understand the difference. (myrhlyn, 2005, para. 52)

The Response

NarcissaM brought the subject to the outside world by posting it in fandom_wank -- a defunct LiveJournal specializing in fandom drama, which now exists primarily in archives -- and the result was universally disbelief and amusement. The responses ranged from insightful, if crass, commentary . . .

Emerson did not kill your dog, tell you that Santa wasn't real, and touch you in your swimsuit areas. And the more I read the more I'm convinced that H/Hr fans aren't angry because what he said was insulting, they're angry because what he said was *accurate*. (iczer6)

I'm also wondering where keeping slaves was a matter of, y'know, people having different beliefs, and not the subjugation of an entire culture by another which had more money and more powerful weapons, and needed a lot of manual labor but didn't want to pay for it. (slackerbitch)

To good old-fashioned sarcasm and snark:

That's not the stupidest thing I've ever read, but it's in the top five. (Anonymous)

That's right. There is a conspiracy, Hermionians! The world is against you and want to take a shit on all your fan fiction! XD (Anonymous “Mary”)

QUICKLY! SOMEBODY CALL A WAAAAAHBULANCE! WE HAVE INTERNET PERSECUTION! (aerobot)

F_W, known for good and ill as a site that takes nothing seriously except the desire to laugh at themselves and especially others, took the slavery comment and ran with it:

So how much does a healthy H/Hr fan with good teeth go for these days? (xero-sky)

Which H/Hr's are in the big house and which ones are working in the fields? ... We didn't land on Plymouth rock, Plymouth rock landed on us! *throws up the fist* (prettyveela)

If we're going to start enslaving delusional people, I want to start with the scientologists. Who's with me? (ladybirdsleeps)

Big Daddy Heron:*hits the H/Hr fan with a whip* Your ship name is H/Hr, H/Hr! Say it! H/Hr shipper: H-Harmony (sewingmyfish)

Bully for the slaves! In fact they would have been sooo much better off if all we 21st century people could trade places with the whites that lived back then. Not only could we tell them to get a life, none of us would have kept slaves! (chief)

You know, just like slaves, they have to work out in the hot sun for no wages and be beaten and whipped and raped and sold like cattle deal with an author not writing the fictional pairing they wanted. (slackerbitch)

Mere hours after the controversy was reported to F_W, a user named ahiru created some icons to celebrate the controversy:

And with some more chuckles about the inherent ridiculousness of such a claim, the fandom and its onlookers dropped the subject.

For a few months.

The Aftermath

In November 2005, some users rediscovered the icons made by ahiru and found them insensitive and racist. This is immediately reported to F_W not once but twice, and the folks there were no longer entertained, responding with less amusement than outright hostility. A couple of F_Wankers understood to at least some extent why there might be people who didn’t love the icons, though they did generally come down on the side of parody and feel those upset were missing the point of the joke. A lot of F_Wankers were upset about political correctness and free speech, and were eager to point out the oppression faced by other groups of people.

Someone anonymous entered the fray with racist guns blazing, and was summarily eviscerated by gleeful F_Wankers.

After that, the dust settled, and all was quiet on the fandom front . . . at least, until the next inevitable disaster.

Further Reading

The Interview that sparked the Emerson outrage

An offshoot of Harmony that believes in Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson’s undeniable chemistry and romance

A collection of Harmonian controversies, 2006-2010

Other HP controversies

#harry potter #hp #jkr #rowling #fandom_wank #f_w #shipping wars #shipping #fandom history #tw: racism #long post #very long post #this is mostly a rounding up of quotes and summarizing the wank report #i do realize that #but this stuff deserves to be remembered #cut out some editorializing in the aftermath section about how f_w kinda come across as super huge dicks #but i'm trying to be objective here so #i got out of my way to say 'wank' as little as possible #it's one of those words that hurts to type #proving that i am not immune to finding something cringeworthy either #i don't have a consistent tw tag I'm sorry #no one is going to read this but i think it's interesting #i love fandom history and i'm not the best person to tell these stories but here we are #i guess i could just link to the wank wiki and let people read it for themselves #but that's a lot of link hunting and it's easier when it's all in one place i think

[warmbeebosoftbeebo]

Hey, I’m the anon that asked panicsinning about the daddy thing. I’m seeing it in a significant portion of the fics I try to read at the minute (not just Brendon fics, but I seem to find more of them with him!) and I’m not into it at all. It kinda sucks. There are so many other ways to write a dominant Brendon, if that’s what people want, but as soon as I see the daddy thing I gotta close the tab like no thank u. And especially if he’s said it makes him uncomfortable

i think we’re dealing with the fall out of a generation of 90s and 2000s people raised on internet porn. i’ve noticed–this is evident on wattpad n tumblr especially–that a lot of smut is written by junior high n high school girls too, whose go to source is other smut fics by youn’uns n internet porn. like you could see that at work too on aooo n livejournal, but that stuff tended to be more grounded in real life experience/realistic n the writers skewed older–late teens n 20s on those–recorded porn was also less…fucked up in the 90s-early 00s n things that are mainstream now used to be fringe n avoidable. another thing i’ve noticed in fics: lack of solidarity with other women and girls–a lot of monstering of other females, who are usually portrayed as “whores” (this has a long history though–i remember the good girl/bad girl dichotomy in a lot of romance novels, vc andrews books, etc–tv shows n movies based around conflict between girls, the idea that women and girls are crueler to girls than boys are when the reverse is true, women getting angry at the “other woman” and not their dickhead men)

(trigger warning for me ranting about the content of pornography, the sexual status quo, etc)

i watched straight porn from about 8-12 from 95-99 and i don’t remember ever seeing pia for example. porn is now absolutely obsessed with men anally penetrating women with their dicks (if you are on a porn site, you will quickly see it guaranfuckingteed), particularly the damage that can result from it (eg “gaping,” women saying they can’t handle it *on camera* and the scene still continuing, “she’ll need an ambulance when we’re done with her”). there wasn’t much “deep throat”/”throat fucking” fellatio (i hate those terms–we are looking at throat rape) either, but now porn is obsessed with that too. it also used to be more about showing at least the performance of female pleasure and orgasm (usually faked of course) but now that is largely irrelevant and clear indications of pain are not only kept in, but intentionally there. piv that’s not a cervix bashing is hard to find, scenes without piv even harder (and they’re usually brief clips), and “sex” for men generally and pornographers in particular starts at piv–like if there isn’t at least “regular fucking” it doesn’t even register as sexual and worth watching to most.

“vanilla porn” has a lot of bdsm themes in it as discussed above as well as slapping, spitting, ejaculating on women’s faces, misogynist namecalling, “ass to mouth” and the hetero bdsm porn online is absolutely–we’re talking witch hunt and slavery levels of torture. in both, women are punished for the crime of being born female. based in aggrieved male entitlement–like men are punishing women for having any boundaries, desires of their own, telling them no outright or no to certain sex acts. any sexuality in women reduced to “fuck hole” (or a dewey eyed bisexual–tropes around female-female sexuality in porn are more varied i will admit but ultimately about viewer, typically male, titillation. femdom is also usually paid for by the man, and all about what he wants, and most of the domination and pain is both mild in comparison to what women are put through and based in feminizing him–comparing him to a woman, calling him gay, saying he has a small “ineffective” dick, calling his anus a pussy, etc. women are also often in absolutely ridiculous uncomfortable outfits n shoes.). a lot of humiliation, dom/sub–it’s really difficult for me to watch but it’s like men are in a contest with each other, expressing sexuality together, with women as the targets–seeing who can humiliate and hurt women the most–make her wish she’d never been born. man=sadist, and female=hole. (and a lot of the women making porn play that same game too.)

under this, girls are developing their sexuality, with the above porn online, and either just a general lack of information from school and parents, or a specifically religious tinge to discussions of sexuality as being sinful, shameful in women (and gay/bi men). sex=piv=sex, and pia is 5th base and you shouldn’t have hang ups about fucking bc it’s what girls and women are made for and like. things that women can do together don’t get transferred to sex with men at all, or at best MAY make it in as foreplay–sex is pole in hole, silly ho–not rubbing off on him (esp if you want to rub on a part or in a position that makes him feel like a girl), or getting oral, or masturbating in front of him, or him using his hand on you, or using toys together… women and girls are the gatekeepers for male sexuality and responsible for men’s actions and either natural saints or whores who need to either save men from the bad women (who deserve what men do to them, regardless of how cruel or sadistic or destructive–she wanted it if it happened at all–made him do it) or embrace their roles as cumsluts (liberated sexuality is doing what the pornographers tell you to, you go girl and suck that cock and have piv while you have few if any orgasms, don’t even feel that turned on and comfortable, and just put on a good show! lol don’t you know that focusing on yr clit n vulva is for masturbation and girl-girl action, if you focus on that silly part at all. or just rub your clit while he’s using whichever of your holes he wants–the sex positive solution. or spend years thinking you’re broken, to find out not orgasming during piv is normal, and just continue having it n taking hormonal birth control n praying for your period to arrive on time.)

there is a lot telling women and girls to find dangerous, possessive, sadistic, controlling, etc men sexy, and obviously this works–increasingly women are consuming porn, the success of the twilight novels, 50 shades of abusive gaslighting n pitying the poor poor dude who is just a hurt puppy (who can fucking kill you), advising already traumatized women to “work through their trauma” with a male sadist/top, telling women and girls that “daddy kink” is hot as fuck (ignore the fact that father-daughter incest is probably statistically the most traumatic form of child sexual abuse there is n hide it behind “it’s just a bit of kinky fun n letting him feel like a real man n letting you surrender to yourself n letting him take care of you” gaslighting), the whole mess of “sex positive feminism” (this is not what anne koedt, shere hite, audre lorde, etc were talking about folks) and repainting feminism (the fight for women’s liberation from patriarchy and the end of male violence) as about consumerist choices (particularly around conforming to beauty standards, partaking in prostitution industries) and saying women are not a class and women aren’t oppressed because of male desire to control our sexuality and reproduction but because we have inner feminine souls/brains and if you’re not a walking stereotype n don’t feel like one you’re not really female n sex is a free for all n not political at all (except for slutshaming bc women often are what men call us n shouldn’t be shamed for it–we should embrace it as empowerment) n trust women unless they say something you don’t agree with then they are monsters who kill with their words unlike men (even the ones who do kill) who aren’t why we feel unsafe (those bad women over there made them do it n besides, women are worse than men)… 

holy fuck this is quite the rant! i need to get back to writing the smutty times with beebs ;)

tl;dr this environment is ripe for girls finding “daddy kink” sexy because it encapsulates more explicitly what flows through our everyday sexual lives, media, etc. already. like the question shouldn’t be “why are some into daddy kink” but “why is there an intense focus on dom/sub, top/bottom, adult/child, male/female, penetrator/penetrated… dichotomies and roles in the first place?” or “how could so many *not* be drawn to it?” i remember reading explicit romance novels and this dom/sub, piv-oriented, etc relation was as common as air in them (they were generally way worse than graphic western novels n even worse than a lot of recorded porn back then), even the ones where the women were into equality outside of the bedroom. you can also see this in gay porn, where there is also this focus on pia and top/bottom roles, changing the way gay men have sex outside of porn too–like older gay/bi men see pia and roles attached to it as far less pivotal in their understanding and experience of sex than young gay/bi men do. (jesus christ gal get back on topic…) 

daddy/little (or kitten or princess or slut or…) confirms the way things should be: male control, authority, female deference, submission, etc. independence in women is punished. female desire for sexual pleasure and affection is denigrated. the amount of fics where women are punished or shamed for masturbating in front of him or on her own or rubbing herself on him by the daddy/dom! i can’t even… told not to, called bad for doing it…had their hand slapped away…physically punished for doing it. it’s seen as a distraction from the man’s Very Important Stuff at best, whether that stuff is nonsexual or what he wants to do to her sexually. sexuality is presented as a punishment for women (not so far from god’s condemnation of eve are we?), but something we desire simultaneously. like we should be punished for wanting, as if our wanting men or a man means we should be hurt by him/them. spanking is a humiliation and pain ritual a la abusive fathers with belts/forceful hands/tree branches/whips through the patriarchal ages, creating welts and tears and humiliation. females are *done to* and males *do*. even sucking dick becomes something men do to women by pushing her head down, pushing into her throat, etc as tears well up. outside of fic, women take painkillers and use numbing gels to endure it. the sexiest women are like little girls, and the sexiest men are controlling fathers. men *have to* hurt us, to let us know what we did wrong, so we can try to behave better next time. women need someone telling them what to do, when to do it, how to do it. telling us and showing us what we are for. men need to feel like real men, and women like real women–nothing is worse than an uppity woman making a man feel like a he’s not an avatar of masculinity, or however he sees himself–quit trying to emasculate men, unless they are into forced feminization of course n are paying for you to do what they want you to, are topping from the bottom. never challenge male self-image, especially in sex. know your place, and tell yourself you are precious, and cared for, and pampered by a benevolent master. daddy kink is the sexiest sex to ever sex, n vanilla is just so boring… why settle for lights out missionary piv when you can be choked n slapped n entered anally? those are your two choices. you’re not a prude are you? quit being so sex negative. quit policing these wild sexy desires in people. quit erasing and killing us with anything you might think or say to contradict this.

we live in a world where men get away with murdering women based on “rough sex gone wrong” defenses, even to the point where people think it reasonable that a native woman in prostitution bled to death after “consensual” piv with a john (when he likely sliced open the inside of her vagina with a knife based on the extent of her injury, let alone the belief that lethal injury can be consented to period let alone within prostitution), athletes are acquitted of rape when they gang rape a woman into several hours of bleeding from a vaginal injury (and she named it rape from the get go, the men were bragging and trying to get her to keep quiet), wives are murdered by boyfriends in “50 shades games gone wrong” that *she* wanted (considering she is the dead one not him...), people think *unconscious* women and girls are “consenting” whether strangled into unconsciousness or drugged or sleeping..., and another woman was literally choked to death during throat rape by the man she loved (the focus in that courtroom and the media? His allegedly big dick--how could he have helped himself, not killed her, with such a big cock? Injuring women with big dicks is so entertaining n humourous!). A male sadist is more likely to kill you than give you an amazing time in bed. More likely to claim it’s all fun n games when numerous women accuse him of sexual, physical and psychological abuse than actually help those or any other women have a good time in bed.