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moonlitgleek · 5 years

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Thank god someone finally said it! Catelyn was a HORRIBLE wife, a worse mother, and an even worse person. The most tragic and overlooked aspect of Ned's story is that he got saddled with her. It made his life miserable, and brought ruin to his house and seven kingdoms as a whole. Getting his head cut off might even be a mercy compared to coming back home and living the rest of his life with THAT. Then again, if it weren't for her, his head wouldn't have been cut in the first place.

Sometimes I really hate this damn site.

You know, it’s people like you that cripple discussion of nuanced or complicated characters through the tendency to take every bit of criticism as a confirmation of your hate and an invitation to spew it all over everyone. I shouldn’t be wary of openly criticizing a character for fear that those who hate them would misconstrue my words and use it to fuel their nonsense arguments, which happens near every time I think to criticize someone, especially when it’s a female character. Even when I specifically say that that I don’t think this character a bad person like in this case. Did you miss the last paragraph of my post? Did you miss the entirety of @secretlyatargaryen‘s post? Because it has been reiterated that Cat is not a bad person or a bad mother. The point is not to bash Catelyn as you seem interested in doing but to point out that her actions with Jon are wrong and that they affected more than just Jon. But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that someone who calls a woman “that” as if she is some thing and who seems invested in blaming her for everything she does is only interested in using our criticism to disparage and vilify Cat.

By the way, your message is as factually inaccurate as it is disgusting, anon. Let’s break it down.

Fallacy #1: Ned was saddled with Catelyn.

In a society that cares not a whit about women’s consent or feelings, it’s almost amusing that you think that it’s the man who gets saddled with the woman. Between Ned and Catelyn, guess which one had any kind of power in the situation? Ned. Hoster Tully might have demanded that Ned honor the betrothal to Catelyn as a price for his support in the war but it was still Ned’s choice to accept or refuse. But the rebels needed the Riverlands if they wanted to win the war, you say. Sure, and Ned made a choice for strategic reasons, but he still had the space to make the choice. Do you think that Catelyn did? Do you think Hoster bothered to ask her if she minded marrying the brother of the guy that she has been betrothed to for years and grew up expecting to marry? Do you think he bothered to consider that it’s callous to marry his daughter off so soon after her betrothed died and to his own brother? And even if he did, a woman who was raised with Family, Duty, Honor so hammered into her psyche and who, like every other woman in Westeros, was raised on how her place was to marry someone of her father’s choosing stands no chance. The system is broken and Catelyn Tully is as much its victim as any other woman in Westeros.

Fallacy #2: Catelyn made Ned miserable and his death was a mercy compared to being with her.

What an egregious (and delusional) thing to say that Ned is better off dead than being with the woman he loves and the children he adores. What an awful thing to say that anything pertaining to Ned’s death is a mercy. The man’s death was a knife to the hearts of his wife and children, but you think it’s better for him than the company of the wife he literally spends a book yearning for. That’s messed up.

I don’t know what book you’ve read or what you’re basing your claims on, but in my copy, Ned Stark is a man who clearly loves and values his wife as a person. He builds a sept for her because he respects her and wants her to have the comfort of her gods. There is a great deal of affection and comfort that shines through their interactions, and clear evidence in Catelyn’s second chapter in AGoT that Ned seeks and enjoys her company. In my copy, I see a guy who shows tremendous political trust in his wife that he leaves Winterfell and the North in her hands when he leaves with the expectation that she would continue Robb’s education and who trusts her to start mobilizing the Northern banners. I see a guy who reacts in wonderment to seeing Catelyn in King’s Landing, and constantly reflects on how he wishes he is with her during his tenure as Hand. I see Catelyn occupying Ned’s thoughts in his imprisonment that one of his regrets is that he’ll never see her again. If that’s being miserable, sign me up. For more of Ned’s so-called misery in his marriage, please refer to this post.

But Jon Snow, right? Yes, but Jon Snow. Jon’s presence has always been a point of conflict between Ned and Cat but that does not change the nature of their relationship. No one says that a loving happy marriage doesn’t have its problems or that it has to be perpetually conflict-free. Also, don’t forget that Jon’s presence in Winterfell was by Ned’s own decision. I’m not saying that Ned was wrong to bring Jon to Winterfell and I’m very sympathetic to his reasons and respectful of his desire to do right by an innocent child, I have a lot of respect for the man precisely because he acted as a father to Jon and gave him a family. But I’m under no illusion that this didn’t come at Catelyn’s expense, which is something that Ned himself was aware of. I am critical of how Cat treated Jon Snow, but it’s important to see that she wasn’t in the best situation either, because this is just another sign of how little control or say she had, even in her own home. The entire situation was inherently imperfect but while I do fault Cat for taking out her lack of control on the one person who had less control that she did and who also happens to be an innocent child, I’m not unsympathetic to her pain and anger over Ned’s indiscretions or to her fear for her children. The patriarchy says that Catelyn should accept that her husband would cheat on her, that this is a situation that she has to accept and has no right to change because her husband has the power, that she can’t be angry and resentful of Ned for the situation. For the sake of her marriage, for the sake of her children, Catelyn had to let go of her anger towards Ned but that anger does not disappear just because she pushed it down, so she redirected it onto the living reminder of her husband’s nominal infidelity who also happens to be a reminder of her lack of control. That is not an excuse for her actions with Jon that are objectively wrong but it is an explanation that shows that Catelyn is not inherently a bad person. She is a victim of her society and its social construct, which is one reason that makes her abuse of Jon gutting to me, since Jon is also a victim of their society and its social construct. Cat took her own disadvantage on the one person who was more disadvantaged than her. I can’t fault anyone for having negative feelings towards her over that particular situation since she was essentially kicking down at Jon and taking her problems out on a child, but this is far more complicated than “Catelyn is an evil person”.

Fallacy #3: Catelyn was a bad mother and person.

People are more complicated than the binary of “infallible” and “monster” that you seem to be operating on. Good people can make grievous mistakes regardless of their good intentions, and it’s not like those mistakes suck out their morality with them. Catelyn’s parenting wasn’t perfect. She pressures Arya to conform out of a conventional viewpoint and a desire to see her daughter lead a good life (as does Ned, btw), but ends up harming Arya. Her grief over Bran’s fall and coma and her exhaustion in keeping a vigil by his bedside puts pressure on Robb and hurts Rickon. Her abuse of Jon echoes through the family and inadvertently hurts her own children. Even the well-intentioned fail sometimes. Would you care to hear about the times Ned did too?

However, it remains that Catelyn’s entire character is build around her love for her family and her dedication to her children. She throws herself between an armed man and her comatose child with no thought to her life. She is constantly tormented by her distance from Bran and Rickon and blames herself for not being there for them. She is literally the only one who thinks that Sansa and Arya’s lives are worth trading against Jaime Lannister’s. She wants nothing but to send Robb to safety when she meets up with his army but recognizes that this would be extremely bad for his position. She bargains for Robb’s life while injured and spares no thought to her own life in the process. She refuses to accept that Arya is dead and holds out hope for her return. She champions Robb’s cause and does her level best to guide him, but also affords him space to grown on his own and is greatly proud of his leadership. No, I don’t consider Cat a bad parent at all, even with her mistakes. Those errors were a result of parental frailty and misguided protectiveness.

Questioning Cat’s personality in general doesn’t hold up either. She defends and befriends Brienne. She tries to reassure Edmure that their father loves and is proud of him. She feels guilty after Rickard Karstark kills the Lannister prisoners and feels his accusations acutely. She empathizes with Jeyne and reassures her of her place despite her displeasure with the marriage. She feels sadness for Mya Stone’s innocence over her doomed love with Mychel Redfort. There are places where Cat’s empathy fail her but if I denounce everyone who has a moment of failed empathy or who ever does a morally questionable thing, I’d be dismissing every single character in this entire series as a bad person. There are no perfect people in GRRM’s narrative, so what makes Cat’s imperfections specifically worthy of condemnation?

Fallacy #4: Catelyn should be blamed for Ned’s death, the ruin of House Stark and the Seven Kingdoms.

Right. Tyrion’s arrest. That did not start the war because the war was already in the works before the royal family even arrives in Winterfell.

I’m growing increasingly irritated with the tendency to blame any random Stark for the war which builds on deliberate dismissal of what everyone else was doing that led to the war. Sorry to say but the war was inevitable even if Catelyn never seizes Tyrion. It was inevitable because Stannis knew that the royal children were illegitimate and was preparing for war. It was inevitable because Renly knew that the royal children were illegitimate and was preparing for his own takeover. That guarantees a showdown with Tywin and the rest of the Lannisters no matter what, and puts Stannis and Renly on opposite sides. Don’t forget that Littlefinger and Varys were invested in pitting the Starks and the Lannisters against each other for their own gain as well. The entire situation was a powder keg waiting to blow long before any Stark stepped a foot in King’s Landing.

Blaming Catelyn, or any Stark really, for the War of the Five Kings and all it brought only serves to exonerate those who are responsible for it. Jaime and Cersei have an affair, pass their children as royal heirs and kill to maintain that fallacy. Jaime pushes Bran out of a window and Joffrey tries to have him killed. Cersei plots to have Robert killed and puts her plan into motion before Ned even finds out about the twincest. Baelish encourages Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and frame the Lannisters, then lies about the owner of the dagger used in the attempt of Bran’s life. He betrays Ned to Cersei and conspires till he gets Joffrey to kill Ned. Tywin Lannister sends men to burn and pillage the Riverlands, then plans with the Freys and the Boltons to murder Robb and his army at a wedding. Balon Greyjoy decides that avenging himself on a dead man is the height of power and embarks on an idiotic campaign in the North. Theon betrays the Starks and seizes Winterfell. Imagine having all that awfulness and all these contributing players to the war, but somehow finding the war Catelyn’s fault. Yes, I know the reasoning is that her arrest of Tyrion put the Starks and the Lannisters in open conflict and “made” Tywin attack the Riverlands. Except that Catelyn is not responsible for the fact that the Lannister go-to method is to commit war crimes and go stabby. A normal person could have protested Tyrion’s arrest to the king and painted the Starks as the aggressors but no, Tywin Lannister makes his own laws and he chooses to take it out on the Tullys’ smallfolk. That’s on him. Also, are we going to pretend that the Starks and the Lannisters weren’t already poised for a conflict after two attacks on Bran’s life? Or that Ned’s discovery of the twincest and his execution on Joffrey’s orders wasn’t going to drag the Starks into the war anyway?

Fun fact: of all the fighting factions in the War of the Five Kings, it’s Catelyn Stark who tries repeatedly to put a stop to the war. She pleads for peace in Robb’s council. She tries to broker an alliance between Robb and Renly, and points out that no one but Robb is doing a thing to protect the people against the Lannisters. She tries to get the Baratheon brothers to unify and reach an accord because common sense says that they all of them have the same enemy, and their conflict benefits no one but the Lannisters. Catelyn does not start the war, but she sure tries to end it. Sadly, no one listens to her.

Now please don’t come to me again with your victim-blaming, character bashing arguments.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #catelyn stark #ned stark #robb stark #arya stark #sansa stark #bran stark #jon snow #hoster tully #the war of the five kings #stark family dynamics #ask box #Anon asks

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ravel-puzzlewell · 7 years

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Hi, this is a bit apropos of nothing but I'd like to ask: do you think a Fenris/Hawke/Isabela OT3 could work and be happy? Fenris + Izzy seem to like each other quite a bit, so that prob wouldn't be an issue, but they both also seem to need a lot of encouragement, attention and reassurance that they're worthy of love and wanted for themselves and... idk, I'm not sure whether poly relationship wouldn't make them feel like they alone can't even keep your attention? If that makes sense.

Ugh, tough question, as I presume we’re talking healthy long-term stable relationship with all parties feeling satisfied and content? Because I think that would take addressing a lot of issues these people have.

I mean, they are clearly attracted to each other, which already gives fundament to that ot3. But as you mentioned yourself, both Izzy and Fenris need a lot of encouragement, because they have terribly low self-esteem. Both of them end the relationship with Hawke after the first night because they think they’re too much trouble and Hawke would be better off with someone else, Fenris outright admits - “I thought it’s better if you hate me.” They only attempt to reconcile things if Hawke do not find anyone else in 3 goddamn years. So I imagine it would take a lot of transparent communication to negotiate the relationship, which… they are extremely bad at? Both of them struggle to talk about their feelings, let alone their needs and anxieties, and both of them are bad at establishing boundaries, especially Fenris. Which, I mean, understandable, since he wasn’t allowed to have any boundaries for the most of his life, but it still complicates things immensely.

Also there are ways their personalities and survival mechanisms clash pretty badly. Fenris can be a hugely judgmental jerkward who thinks that the best thing to do for a person after something terrible happened to them is to spell out harsh life lessons so they can do better next time. He also insists on forcibly confronting people with consequences of their decisions in no polite terms (“You are a monster” to Merrill right after her friend died, frex). While Isabela prefers to dismiss or try to escape the consequences, lowkey labeling herself a bad person so whatever, nothing she does matters, which, you know, is pretty much contradicts with how Fenris views things. They even have a conversation in Act 3 where Fenris basically shames her for qunari invasion and tells her that she’d be chemically brainwashed if it wasn’t for Hawke. (Yikes, way to be a dick, Fenris) In a long-term relationship where your decisions affect each other, you need to be able to discuss them in better terms than Fenris’ judgemental accusations of “Look how hard you fucked up” and Isabela’s “Haha, guess I’m just a lying thieving snake then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”, because it doesn’t lead to a productive way to solving issues.

And then there’s Izzy’s defensive mechanism of making fun of traumatic experiences, as when she’s joking about his former master ”oiling him up. “ I don’t assume bad intentions from her, on the contrary, I think for Izzy making fun of bad shit is a way to show that you’re strong and don’t care about it anymore. But we know that Fenris *is* still haunted by his past and abuse from the private conversations with him and his PTSD episode after first night with Hawke. But as I said already, he’s very bad at establishing boundaries, so instead of showing his discomfort he just closes off - “Fenris maintains an appearance of calm, but it is only a facade. Every wound he takes stirs at his deeply buried resentment, increasing his attack damage.” When Fenris thinks his pain is mocked, he gets defensive - in rivalmance, he lashes out at Hawke when he thinks that the sword he’s gifted is a mockery. I don’t mean to say that after that banter with Izzy he went to cry in a corner, but instead it leads to him keeping his guard up around her, which prevents him from really connecting with her emotionally. Even when they’re having an affair, Izzy starts the conversation with “I can’t stop thinking about that night”, which from her is downright intimate and not her usual carelessly rowdy, but Fenris cuts her off with “then I’ll see you tonight”, and when she’s surprised at his bluntness, he answers with “Did you expect flowers?” This is from the guy who can be ridiculously, poetically romantic, but there he clearly keeps emotional distance and insists on being casual.

And this is just Fenris\Isabela issues, I’ve never been in a poly relationship, but I imagine that bringing in Hawke complicates things hugely, as Fenris and Izzy are both insecure about how much they are wanted, but too proud to admit\discuss it. You need Hawke to manage to balance a relationship with two survivors of sexual and emotional abuse with conflicting defense mechanisms. And like, I’m sure it can be written, I’m sure there are fics where it’s been done, but I personally think it’s gotta be pretty fucking hard to write it believably, without glossing over character conflicts and dynamics and without turning Hawke into a full-time therapist.

#im no leading authority in polyamory so im mostly looking at it from the point of character dynamics #long post #Anonymous #asks tag

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